GhostBSD makes FreeBSD a little less frightening for the Linux loyal – Traditional Unix sanity plus your choice of MATE or Xfce (by me on The Register) reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Harbinger_X · 2023-11-07 12:27 Would have liked a more in depth look at living the BSD life. Especially when the thumbnail hints at GPU stuff. But will try nonetheless. Always interested in new(to me), or different ways to get from a to b. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rainforrest_gump · 2023-11-07 12:40 Good article. I setup Ghost a few months ago and have been an advocate ever since. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-07 13:25 [Author/submitter here] I have looked at FreeBSD a few times in the last couple of years: https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/20/freebsd_131/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/04/13/freebsd_132_openbsd_73/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/24/freebsd_14_rc2/ As well as OpenBSD on its own twice: https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/22/openbsd_71_released_including_a pple/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/10/21/openbsd_72_released/ And NetBSD: https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/10/netbsd_93/ And DragonflyBSD: https://www.theregister.com/2023/01/06/dragonfly_bsd_6_4/ I don't run any BSD in daily production use myself, although my home NAS runs TrueNAS Core, based on FreeBSD. I've covered it too: https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/11/truenas_13_released/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-07 13:26 [Author/submitter here] Thanks! I do have a bare-metal install of last year's release, but I am impressed how much it has improved since then. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rainforrest_gump · 2023-11-07 14:00 Yea I was gobsmacked at how user friendly it is. Proof that security and GUI can work in tandem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Difficult_Salary3234 · 2023-11-07 14:46 I will give it a go. I have a spare Lenovo T440 to install… the usual installation (following the handbook or desktop-installer) will build a system with no audio and no wireless. Do you think GhostBSD will give me more chances that things will work out of the box? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-07 14:59 Hmmm. I have FreeBSD on a Core i5 T420, and GhostBSD on a Core i7 T420. Both have working wireless and sound. So I am not sure what happened. The one bit of generic advice I'd give is: make sure your firmware is current before you start. That helps a lot with most FOSS OSes: vendors only test against Windows. But yes, to directly answer your question, I think there's a very good chance this will work better and much more easily. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-07 17:41 Why would a BSD userland be anymore or less frightening than a GNU userland? I think it's these type of comparisons that hurt BSD, because anyone that has ran both knows that Linux is more complex. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GenericHamster · 2023-11-07 18:04 Also there is a lot of gnu user land in a BSD install as well. Who cares what variant of "ls" you use. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Difficult_Salary3234 · 2023-11-07 18:25 Unfortunately no joy. I didn’t really had huge expectations as it’s based on 13.2. Oh well… I will wait 14 and see if there’s any improvements ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-07 18:38 Agreed, this is exactly how I see it too. Bash is Bash. Maybe you have some different switches here and there, but nothing a man page can't solve. To your point add your favorite GNU tool if that's what you prefer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherealN · 2023-11-07 22:22 That depends on the BSD install. Mine doesn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherealN · 2023-11-07 22:25 That's the issue: yes, bash is bash. I don't have bash on any my BSD systems, since I never took the effort to install it, because why would I need it? If you assume I have bash, your script will not work on my system. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-07 23:06 That’s a choice you make, the example or point I’m making is that whatever shell you prefer, it’s the same software on both systems. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GenericHamster · 2023-11-08 10:27 No modern DRM graphics drivers ([https://github.com/freebsd/drm-kmod/b lob/master/include/drm/drm\_gem\_vram\_helper.h](https://github.com/fr eebsd/drm-kmod/blob/master/include/drm/drm_gem_vram_helper.h))? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-08 13:16 > Lenovo T440 Are you on BIOS version 2.54? https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and- netbooks/thinkpad-t-series- laptops/thinkpad-t440/downloads/ds035965-bios-update-utility-bootable- cd-for-windows-108187-64-bit-7-32-bit-thinkpad-t440-t440s It was only released in 2020. The model was 7YO then. Check, and if not, update. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-08 13:23 Because there are at a total guess 1000x more Linux users and more Linux documentation. Who wrote what doesn't enter into it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-08 16:04 That’s like saying a toyota is easier to drive than a honda even though the steering wheel is manufactured for both companies by the same third party because or Toyota is more successful financially. The point I’m making devoid of authorship is that both systems can run the same exact software. Lastly, I’m primarily a linux user, but TLDP has nothing on the FreeBSD handbook or documentation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-08 16:33 I still disagree. If you have time to read a 1000-page handbook, seriously, good for you. I don't. I review 50+ FOSS OSes a year and I need to write 2 articles a day. In this, I am similar to the average casual techie who might give a new OS a play for a few hours but is _not_ going to spend a week on reading and research in how to get it working. I have worked professionally on the documentation teams of two enterprise Linux distros and I can tell you that the go-to in this field is not the FreeBSD Handbook, it is the Arch Linux wiki. That site has more info, better indexed and cross-reference, than any other OS on the planet. In the 1980s when I tried out a new OS, I sat down and read the handbook, but it is not the 1980s any more. Now, I use 35-odd years of experience and I just try it, and when I hit problems, I Google them. That is what I did with the previous [**nine** BSD distros I reviewed since 2021](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/17pt0kc/comment/k87k kna/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) because I am putting my money where my mouth is here. And when I Google "freebsd 13 how to install xfce" I get this: https://unixcop.com/how-to-install-xfce-in-freebsd-13/ From which you can see 2 things. 1. That this is not the FreeBSD Handbook. 2. That there are over a dozen steps. It is not trivial and it is not easy. It is 2023. It _should_ be trivial and it _should_ be easy. But that is why GhostBSD exists, and why it needs to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-08 16:54 No like most people I search for things I need and because the handbook is online and indexed just like the Arch wiki, I can find details I need devoid of reading 1k pages. The irony in your statement is that Arch is trying its hardest to be like BSD. I can assure you the go to for documentation when it comes to BSD is not the Arch wiki and if you can grok Arch Linux documentation you’ll do fine in BSD land. When I search xfce install freebsd I get this link, a total of five steps and its official documentation. https://freebsdfoundation.org/freebsd-project/resourcesold/installing- a-desktop-environment-on-freebsd/ I think those five steps are trivial. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-08 18:14 Good for you. Presumably the developers of GhostBSD don't, or they wouldn't have bothered to spend a decade producing and maintaining their own distribution of the OS. Perhaps you should go tell them that they're all wrong? I mean, I just gave the distro a good review. I liked it, but ISTM that you think I am wrong already. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Difficult_Salary3234 · 2023-11-08 18:24 Thanks for your answer and yes I’m on the latest (I did upgrade following your suggestion in your previous message). Everything works apart from the audio, Wi-Fi and suspend/resume (it doesn’t wake up… I got the blinking and only way to get the laptop back is to long press power and fully restart). Just out of curiosity I did try also 14.0RC4 and I got a kernel panic straight away if I try to boot the installation iso. It doesn’t really means a lot -I will try again when release is available -. I truly would love to get FreeBSD as my daily driver… if you have any other suggestions pls let me know. Thanks! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherealN · 2023-11-09 16:49 I don't use FreeBSD, and there's a difference between things that are "GNU userland" and "things that have been placed under a GPL". Same as me licensing my hobby projects under a "BSD license" does not make it part of "BSD". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherealN · 2023-11-09 16:52 No, my point is: it's what happens when I DON'T make a choice. Having Bash required active choice. Not having Bash just... happens as a natural byproduct of the installer. (At least as far as my experience of FreeBSD and OpenBSD.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- True_Giraffe_7712 · 2023-11-09 23:11 What unix sanity ? As opposed to ofc Linux insanity? I am curious ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-10 11:03 I'm not talking about bash though, bash is only an example. If you chose not to use it, that's your prerogative. Change bash to sh or tcsh, now what? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-10 11:04 The answer to your question is right there in the sentence from which you quote a fragment. « … vast sprawling modern subsystems such as systemd, snap, Wayland, and Flatpak… » Whereas FreeBSD has `/etc/rc.d`, Wayland and GNOME are very much optional and I suspect not common, there's no attempt at supporting cross-Linux distro packaging and indeed I think for many the Ports tree is seen as a more sensible alternative. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherealN · 2023-11-10 18:17 If you only use what is supported by sh, you use sh. Because wherever it's going to run will either use sh, or have sh aliased to something that fully understands that script. The problem is people shebanging /bin/bash on the expectation that EVERYONE not only has bash, but it also is in /bin. While most of the time using exactly zero features that are actually unique to bash. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-11 01:29 You're referencing configuration variables, not differences in software, and that's only because the file systems between Linux and BSD variants are likely different which has actually nothing to with sh or bash. In fact, both sh and bash are happy to adapt to those path differences, giving you a portable experience across many operating systems, which again is my point. Those aren't sh or bash problems, and plenty of people are happy to reach for a posix **/usr/bin/env bash** approach when dealing with shell scripting anyways. I'm not understanding the problem, sorry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherealN · 2023-11-11 17:47 You don't? Really? Okey sir: #!/bin/bash curl https://someplace.com/$(uname -s)/latest/update.sh --output update.sh ./update.sh Do you see the problem? People actually do this, in real life, because it's "how you do it, right?". (And "Bash script" has become synonymous to "shell script" to so many people, I have quite a few colleagues that are completely unaware there's alternatives - to the point they didn't even notice their Macbook Pro's actually default to zsh. :P ) Meanwhile, in reality, there might not be bash on the system. Or, as just tested, there might be bash on the system, just not THERE. Thus the script fails. Verified just now on my a system that does have Bash installed (because I installed neofetch once): the above will not work. But `#!/bin/sh` will. Shebaning #!/bin/sh works on everything I have, when all you're doing is what is actually in sh: tested on everything from a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD to my Arch Linux gaming computer to my OpenBSD laptop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bastardoperator · 2023-11-11 18:14 I think you’re trying to invent a problem that doesn’t exist in practice or is easily rectified. I pointed out that many people today use /usr/bin/env for the reasons you specified. Plenty of software doesn’t exist on systems until it’s installed. If you don’t have bash and need to run a bash script, you install bash. That’s like saying I should never write python because many systems don’t come with python. It’s a bad argument devoid of reality. When people need software, they deploy it. I also run a mac and the problems you’re describing are rectified with a single command and a single line in your bashrc. I don’t know who you’re working with but those are people problems, not inherit software problems. If you install two versions of bash, expect two versions of bash. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DA1993ZB · 2023-11-17 19:28 Meh, FreeBSD is already easy enough to set up. If you can’t figure it out you might as well just use windows ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ezmiller_2 · 2023-11-26 03:59 When I go to install something on BSD, I go “pkg search name of program”. 99% of the time, it’s similar to what I see on Linux. The procedure is the same as Linux, just different commands or switches at times—we want this thing working! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ezmiller_2 · 2023-11-26 04:03 Actually, GhostBSD is over a decade old. Honestly, if you are curious about commands in a command line environment, hit your tab key twice and usually that works for me. BSD isn’t that much harder than Linux to use—you just have to adjust your muscle memory a bit. But since I use Slackware, I’m used to diving into some crackhouse attempt at making some documentation. No the BSD handbook, but other stuff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ezmiller_2 · 2023-11-26 04:05 FreeBSD is so much easier than when I tried it at version 9 or 10. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lproven · 2023-11-26 13:39 > Actually, GhostBSD is over a decade old I know. That's why I said: « to spend a decade producing and maintaining their own distribution » Autocomplete will not help you to install X.org and configure DRM drivers to get it to display, now will it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ezmiller_2 · 2023-11-26 14:44 So I installed FreeBSD 14.0 on my server last week, intending to use it as a home media server. Everything went smoothly and faster than I thought it would, except…there were a few screens on the install that offered no details as to what I was doing. I mainly left everything the default setting, so no crying over spilt milk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-11-28 00:25 > No modern DRM graphics drivers Things could be better. The FreeBSD Foundation can not fund everything. Unpaid volunteers do what they can, and the vast majority of what's done does please me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- grahamperrin · 2023-11-28 00:26 > I have worked professionally on the documentation teams of two enterprise Linux distros and I can tell you that the go-to in this field is not the FreeBSD Handbook, it is the Arch Linux wiki. That site has more info, better indexed and cross-reference, than any other OS on the planet. Bookmarked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- the_abortionat0r · 2023-12-01 07:32 Honestly, the trend is EVERYTHING that is said by BSD enthusiasts hurts BSD. Just look at the threads on this sub. New users are met with horrible advice at best like using a Mac as a warmup for BSD as a best case or are either met with "advice" thats just people trying to take a jab at Linux or straight up hostility. You can ask a question and get told RTFM and get Linked to a random document that has nothing to do with what you asked meaning they didn't RTFM either. Then when they do try to be helpful its from a weird and awkward angle. Likely they want you to come while really offering nothing. They love trying to get Linux users to switch while claiming Linux sucks and somehow BSD is better, but its harder. Somehow. Like, BSD is frozen in place until the BSD mindset/culture grows up. Otherwise its not going anywhere. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pjf_cpp · 2023-12-03 04:55 Scripts that use GNU les options?