Pale Moon is clearly incompatible with the BSDs, so for a rust-free Gecko-type browser, why not Arctic Fox? reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-06 03:05 Arctic Fox, while its primary focus is macOS Snow Leopard and obsolete PowerPC, seems a million more times pleasant to deal with than any other out there. For context, I am going to (as soon as I get new laptops in to ease my test infra over) try and port this to midnightbsd. I've been seeing the drama in the FreeBSD port requests over www/palemoon, and I also previously saw the OpenBSD drama. It proves to me that Matt Tobin and MC Straver are basically operating on inflated egos. So why not Arctic? The alternative is the, well, grossly named "Male Poon" which I believe everyone understands is not appropriate for a browser name. Relevant GitHub: https://github.com/wicknix/Arctic-Fox ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Xerxero · 2021-11-06 08:12 For context. What kinda of drama was there? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-06 13:42 Well, palemoon presented multiple lists of demands in regards to using the pale moon brand to OpenBSD, FreeBSD and others. They want specific non system libs versions of a lot of duplicated libraries. Else you have to remove palemoon branding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- aedinius · 2021-11-06 14:07 They're actively hostile towards non-Windows. They most famously claimed that build instructions were the same as distributing when someone was working on the openbsd port. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kotovalexarian · 2021-11-06 16:31 How is Rust-freeness relates to BSD? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-06 16:57 My issue is entirely different: A dual-language browser with one using an entirely different compiler set makes keeping up web standards ridiculously hard. Also Rust has no standard, unlike C++ or C (C++11 for instance) which makes it impossible to use effectively ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kotovalexarian · 2021-11-06 17:08 I agree that existence of a standard and multiple compilers is a good thing. But the absence of this is not a disadvantage of Rust compared to C or C++. Because their standards include lots of undefined behaviors, compilers resolve this differently, some software is bounded to specific compiler and even compiler version. Rust already looks more effective than C and C++. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kernigh · 2021-11-06 22:53 Some platforms have no Rust compiler. Right now, OpenBSD/macppc and OpenBSD/powerpc64 have no Rust compiler, but some other PowerPC platforms might have one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-06 23:15 I'm not a fan of Rust because it has no standard. Yeah some particular applications require at least a minimum compiler version but it's even worse with Firefox because it might require a specific version of rust, one that has a breaking change later on. Trying to build an older version is equally problematic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-06 23:39 Yeah. Matt Tobin and M. C. Straver need kicks to the nads, repeatedly. Sorry to say, but someone must have not bullied them enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VENTDEV · 2021-11-08 01:05 ~~Seamonkey is still using Gecko.~~^1 Although, I remember there was some effort at getting Quantum going for it. Anyway, that's been my choice of Browser for many years except for the few years I dabbled in Opera Presto. ^1 Corrected below. They moved to Firefox 60ESR at the start of 2020. Also that broke BSD support. Explains why I haven't had to build Seamonkey in a while. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-10 07:14 That isn't true. We are hostile to those who wish to steal our brand identity and to those who directly steal unreleased code. Indeed, I have been behind the push to expand and keep up with rabid release gcc so that we never get into a situation where we are stuck on 4.9 like Tycho was. I also actively consider linux and sunos as part of my testing and validation tasks as Platform Coordinator. But BSD? Never again, the multi-year crusade against us for poor word order and a succession of incompetent developers/contributors trying to expand BSD capability has gone wrong too many times. Not one has ever BOTHERED to keep non-BSD building in mind. Trying to take what isn't yours and sending your own horde of keyboard warriors and cyber-terrorists against us simply won't be tolerated anymore. Regardless of "but mah issue 86". Do try and enjoy the rest of your day/night. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-10 07:15 Nice inciting violence against us you got there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-10 07:16 SeaMonkey is a dead-end project because frg, the defacto leader of the SeaMonkey Project, hates SeaMonkey much like KaiRo did. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sehnsuchtbsd · 2021-11-10 07:35 In the meantime, Mozilla doesn't allow official branding on NetBSD builds, so we have 'Nightly' in place of Firefox. And thanks God, nobody cares. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VENTDEV · 2021-11-10 15:14 I would say all these gecko-based browsers are the walking dead unless they're moving gecko forward as fast as google is moving web standards. As far ask I know, none of them have that kind of man power. One of the great shames of the internet is that we've complicated the modern web to the point where there is only two viable options remaining for www. Anyway, your point is well taken. But as long as Seamonkey has the latest non-quantum patch of Gecko, it doesn't matter if it's dead, it's updated as much as it could be without a major overhaul. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-10 17:15 The fact you don't have a sense of humor about anything on the internet is proof you and Furry McStraver lack maturity. Next time you interact with an OS trying to package your browser, perhaps be a bit more diplomatic than "You will revise your mozconfig located at www/palemoon/files/mozconfig to remove the following:" You're not microsoft, and your reputation has been tarnished outside of your echo chambers. Look at /r/palemoon --are you really that fucking delusional? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-10 17:18 > But BSD? Never again, the multi-year crusade against us for poor word order and a succession of incompetent developers/contributors trying to expand BSD capability has gone wrong too many times. Not one has ever BOTHERED to keep non-BSD building in mind. You know the BSDs aren't even closely related right? I hope? Matt, putting aside trash talk and jokes at your expense for a sec, you do realize the BSDs are over 20+ years divergent from each other at this point right? I hope you do at least. Cyberterrorism, really? I just posted a thread suggesting an alternative fork of your project and you got your feelings hurt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-10 18:09 > In the meantime, Mozilla doesn't allow official branding on NetBSD builds, so we have 'Nightly' in place of Firefox. And thanks God, nobody cares. Well that's shitty of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-11 00:54 Well when you start getting death threats and other forms of continued harassment for the crime of defending rights and open source licenses nevermind working virtually for free for seven years on things people constantly trash THEN you can talk to me about the particulars of BSD timelines. Good day, sir. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-11 01:31 All I CAN do is look.. I am not permitted a voice there because truth and actual flow of events is almost exclusively forbidden. However, as you are against us and happen to have the /correct/ opinions you are free to speak there all you want. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-11 01:34 No it is called intellectual property rights which no open source license gives away and copyleft explicitly excludes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-11 01:36 Except it isn't "updated". It and they can't cope. I have interacted with that project for over a decade and the majority of their best minds are long gone. The SeaMonkey Council exists in name only. It is frg who is calling the shots and is responsible for the sorry state of their developmental progress or lack there of. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-11 02:34 I only argue that brand negotiations should be carried out in good faith, not how you and Furryboy handle it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-11 02:36 There's no timeline here. I highly doubt the BSD community gave you or Straver death threats -- even the OpenBSD guys don't stoop that low. I only suggested you pull your head out and don't penalize all the BSDs for the actions of one, and even then that wasn't a sanctioned ports tree. It was the actions of one individual dev. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-11 02:38 As far as "Defending right and open source" All of your guys' actions are in 100% bad faith. Terminating your repos, only releasing tarballs to obsfuscate change tracking and making it harder to fork your project, removing OS support over squabbles with users... this is the height of immaturity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-11 02:45 I'm a critic, not "against" you or Furryman. Yes, I play around with Moonchild's name because his furry art and fascination is cringe and I think he's cringe in his responses. Yes, I've called you both delusional and childish. Yes, I call you out on your bullshit. You know exactly what you did, and I bet you justify it with cognitive dissonance. You aren't upholding anything but your own egotism, and your false claims of not being part of Straver's team (when you clearly act as his enforcer online), and "defending open source" when your actions are against the spirits of FOSS. You ever considered approaching people more diplomatically would have had a better outcome? "Hi OpenBSD devs, I was alerted that you're offering a port with patches against palemoon and a nonstandard mozconfig. Here's what we generally require to use official branding [insert here]." You would have probably been able to negotiate a better outcome. But you won't listen, so it's fucking pointless dude. And sure, be sure to gossip on your guys' echo chamber about how /u/punishedraion hurt your feelings and didn't understand your brooding edginess at all. That's what I meant by you and him not getting bullied enough -- you'd normally learn in middle school presenting a list of demands in a direct and blunt fashion is counter to getting what you want, and liable to get you smacked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-11 03:21 Advocating violence doesn't make you a critic and your high moral standing evaporates when you suggest such things. The double standard has triplicated among these subreddits and it is staggering to behold. Additionally, you know virtually nothing about me except what your BSD or XP friends spread around. Now as this reddit conflict is ultimately irrelevant I will stop here. But do let me know if you want to actually take the time to get to know me and what I believe and how I see the world if you get tired of your temporary disposable worldview that you got on discount from disreputable men. You might actually find it interesting and consider forming one of your own. Just for a change of pace. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2021-11-11 03:32 > Advocating violence doesn't make you a critic and your high moral standing evaporates when you suggest such things. The double standard has triplicated among these subreddits and it is staggering to behold. Keep telling yourself I actually advocated violence. I could excuse the Dutch Straver for thinking that due to ESL and not understanding US humor as well as a person from the US does, but you're in IL brah -- you know as well as I do what humor from people here is like. If you didn't think I was funny, that's a personal problem. I actually fucking hate Windows XP, so don't call me an "XP friend" because that's absolutely false. Thankfully I have my own worldview. It just doesn't include your behavior or that of Captain Manchild's as "acceptable.". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VENTDEV · 2021-11-11 03:53 Having just read this thread, and not knowing who you were before, I would suggest not making such defamatory comments against your competitors. Either way, last I checked, Seamonkey was tracking Firefox 52 ESR. That was EOL'd by Mozilla back in 2018. But sure enough, I see on Wikipedia, Seamonkey builds have bounced up to Firefox 60 ESR, which if I recall is Quantum. So I am only half correct. They were up to date with the last official non-quantum Gecko ESR, but they have started the move to Quantum. Good for them. And you are correct that they are behind, but then you're talking about them being behind in a totally different thing. They're no longer using the old XUL Gecko engine, which is what I was talking about. I also discovered that it's no longer in ports or pkgsrc, which would explain why I haven't built an update in a while. And since they moved to 60ESR, that probably explains why it's no longer in ports/pkgsrc. I would have said "it doesn't matter, it works on BSD" to your bitching about SeaMonkey's lack of progress, but I guess that is incorrect now too. Not that it matters though, my 2.49.4 works fine in my current FreeBSD desktop setups. When I have the misfortune of having to use Linux, I run Vivaldi, which I enjoy quite a lot. Luckily, that can run in FreeBSD Linux emulation now. So the next time I have to do a clean reinstall or a major update, I'll just get that setup. (Not sure what I'll do about my NetBSD machines, I rarely use them for browsing though. Firefox it is I guess.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sehnsuchtbsd · 2021-11-11 11:14 > I also discovered that it's no longer in ports or pkgsrc, which would explain why I haven't built an update in a while. And since they moved to 60ESR, that probably explains why it's no longer in ports/pkgsrc. The Seamonkey [package](https://pkgsrc.se/www/seamonkey) on pkgsrc is alive and well (in sync with upstream). Patched for audio(4), it doesn't require pulseaudio for NetBSD targets and builds fine on illumos too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VENTDEV · 2021-11-11 14:33 My mistake, I was checking http://cdn.netbsd.org/pub/pkgsrc/packages/NetBSD/amd64/9.2/All/ But I guess I didn't wait for the page to load long enough before I did a ctrl-f. I see it there now though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2021-11-11 21:54 No they are on gecko/56 pretending to be 60. It isn't post-quantum and never will be at least not without decimating what SeaMonkey always was. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The_T-1776 · 2021-11-12 03:06 Speaking of which I sure wish someone could port Pale Moon to pkgsrc. (I would do it if I had a clue what I was doing. :) Pkgsrc is not even limited to NetBSD so it could simultaneously make it functional on more platforms than ever before. I can't speak for everyone but unofficial branding wouldn't bother me, I mean they already have Firefox branded as "Nightly" so it shouldn't be a problem for them either. Again, I can't speak for everyone but the reason I use Pale Moon is it runs so much better on older hardware (in my experience, anyway) than Firefox, and I like the classic interface too. All in all it just seems like a perfect match for NetBSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- sehnsuchtbsd · 2021-11-12 16:30 I agree with you. Midori is a good alternative for low-end hardware, but is not even near the functionality provided by Pale Moon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CIMPBIBAI · 2023-04-16 18:24 "Rights" My ass. Using system libs or not does not have any sort of impact on the end user or developer experience. "Tiny quirks in code" That you patched system libs for do not really affect the end user or dev experience in any way except for 0.001% of all cases. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2023-04-18 04:59 If software does not function properly because it was not built as intended then both the user and the developer who's brand name might be plastered all over this substandard product is damaged. The rights there are not to be damaged or deceived. But overall the rights I was talking about were the intellectual property rights and rights granted by open source licenses that aren't properly respected. It's fine though. You disagree and are almost certainly dead wrong. I am not currently in any position to convince you of that. Though I suggest you do give it a few moments thought. Peace. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CIMPBIBAI · 2023-04-18 15:33 Oh yea. I remember the manjaro firefox fiasco. Well, I agree with you on that point. But read u/PunishedRaion 's reply. He has a more sound point than me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2023-04-19 02:17 Ah. Okay. Yeah .. that is a problem. I didn't look at the context of your comment actually. Doing that yeah I see. Give me a bit to figure out what I want to do about it. k? BTW I dunno if you know that I am not affiliated with MCP and the lot anymore. Really anyone at this point.. Kinda sorda always #seamonkey but that is more talking at each other about what we are doing differently with the same code. I do appreciate the fact that you took the time to give one of my points some reconsideration. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2023-04-19 20:54 And you would be right. Though, also consider that branding has been a sticking point for many people throughout time. As much as I should have handled it differently be that with a few words or a whole different approach you are correct as much as I am correct for the reasons (but not the actions) that one shouldn't just assume they can take without checking or without even a care. What approaching it differently WOULD have gotten me .. other than Issue 86 haunting me even if I died saving a bus of nuns or some shit.. IS it would have given me more information to determine a threat rather than assume a threat and create a bigger one while trying to shut one down that may never have existed in this specific instance. Still, I could only ever imply legal action like most fuckers with some problem with some term but have no actual resources.. Others like the aforementioned furryboy does have the resources but they are extremely finite so most of his direct threats had no real teeth at that point and time.. I hope i can at least get a point for being an asshole sticking to specific terms of licenses rather than the asshole who threatened actual legal action any chance they get. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2023-04-19 20:59 I guess it doesn't matter MyPal nullified a fuck ton of points and Moonchild tried to take ALL of em.. I THINK I have a few left but ONLY a few so I will do my best to use them as well as possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mattatobin · 2023-04-19 21:14 I will say we defended open source up until we felt there was no defense for US in open source so it was decided that we would close up but only for a while .. it was never going to be tarballs forever. As for my self, I destroyed a project in failing to save another one. That is MY crime in the MyPal shit. I did it with little more than intimidation and the letter of the license. HIS MPL Violations do not compare to that. I still do not believe in the practice of a code of conduct but if there MUST be one.. it should just be an unbias document recounting MyPal. THAT should be all the convincing to try to act like a semi-decent human being one should need otherwise... Looking back at things, I hope it can be for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Basilisk-Dev · 2023-09-17 10:28 Basilisk is perfectly compatible with the BSDs and you are more than welcome to compile it for BSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PunishedRaion · 2023-09-17 22:49 Oh neat are you the new basilisk devs? I heard Straver gave it to a new guy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Basilisk-Dev · 2023-09-20 15:03 I am indeed. I purchased the rights to Basilisk around the middle of last year from him. I actually created a subreddit at r/basiliskbrowser a few days ago. Anyone is welcome, including OpenBSD users.