Is the BSD community dedicated to free software? reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- harryruhr · 2018-12-12 23:53 Disclaimer: This is not about GPL vs. BSD licensing. It is about how the BSD community (developers and users) do see software freedom. It is about my first impressions of the BSD conmunity, which may be totally wrong. In my recent contacts with BSD users it was suprising to me, that some (or many) don't mind using proprietary software and operating systems, such as macOS, iOS or even Windows. In the GNU/Linux world most users are sharing a sceptical attitude towards proprietary software, although not everybody is so strict as the FSF. But many users do avoid using proprietary software and OS's. This seems not so much the case in the BSD world. An exception seem to be OpenBSD devs and users - which regularly tattle that developers of the other BSD's are mostly using proprietary Apple products on their notebooks and smartphones (don't know, if this is true). So, what is the status of software freedom as a value in the BSD community? Are my observations correct? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-12-13 00:37 I don't know why it would be surprising. People on BSD are more likely to be professionals or serious hobbyists and not 15-year old redditors who whip into a frenzy with every reddit headline. Serious people are more interested in how things work and getting things done, not some cult group attempting to tear down capitalism for some badge of honor somewhere. That's childish. But you shouldn't use reddit as your reference for this. Or anything else for that matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LocalRefuse · 2018-12-13 00:46 I can only speak for netbsd - there's a strong presence of OS X users in the netbsd camp because pkgsrc supports OS X well. personally I use exclusively FOSS except for my job, even on my phone I just use f-droid. I am definitely here because I want to inspect, modify and build myself the source code for what I use. I don't think I'm alone in that, but I know some people are only interested in netbsd to run weirdo hardware. A lot of people have worked on various proprietary OSes as part of their job. Only BSD conference I went to seemed to have a bunch of Apple employees. I am not surprised they use Macs or iOS. IMO it's easier to work on closed source OSes as a BSD developer because you can re-use the code you already know well as-is. I know that my job has a pile of netbsd code in it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-12-13 00:57 Kinda sounds like a GPL vs BSD thing (religious question). Yes, BSD developers don't (all) find the idea of proprietary software anathema. We write software anyone can use, more or less, including corporations. That's kind of the point. If we were allergic to proprietary software, we would use the GPL license, wouldn't we? Personally, I can't stand MacOS or Windows as a desktop — just from a productivity and familiarity standpoint. But I have an iPhone, and a Windows PC for gaming. My AMD and Intel CPUs are proprietary products, as are the BIOS, IME / PSP, and various firmware blobs running in various peripheral components. There's no avoiding it even if you wanted to. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- illumosguy · 2018-12-13 01:00 > In my recent contacts with BSD users it was surprising to me, that some (or many) don't mind using proprietary software and operating systems, such as macOS, iOS.... I don't use proprietary OSs, phone included, but have nothing to criticize to those who run them, since it's my opinion they do make a better desktop platform for the end-user (referring particularly to 'normal' beings not involved in CS), in regard of what most people expect today from a 'desktop'. I respect those people the same way I want them to respect me for choosing to use Solaris/Illumos almost exclusively plus some *BSD on desktop. I'm also among those who think that everybody should be left free to use what he/her wants as long as he/she gets the job done: a FreeBSD network stack developer will probably have no interest nor benefit in running FreeBSD on desktop >even Windows. how do you elaborate this 'even' ? >In the GNU/Linux world most users are sharing a sceptical attitude towards proprietary software, although not everybody is so strict as the FSF. But many users do avoid using proprietary software and OS's. While I'm a FOSS advocate (purely from a research/scientific point of view, no particular philosophy implied), I'm not against proprietary; you could say proprietary is indifferent to me. My only 2 true concerns towards closed-source are security and privacy. Regarding the former, once a company has affirmed itself as a serious, reliable and security-caring corp, this concern is relatively less important. Against privacy leaks on commercial software instead, nowadays there's not really much one can do, so that's a good reason not to use proprietary Many of the biggest innovations in software engineering ever made and many of the best OSs ever released, are proprietary. In this regard, it's worth noticing that, concretely speaking, as of today, Linux hasn't introduced a single killer feature or innovative software design concept. Most of the Linux good bits where either relicensed and imported or cloned from other OSs >This seems not so much the case in the BSD world. mmm, I just spoke for myself, are you sure you're not making a wrong assumption here, based on FUD spread by some Linux community? How do you support this statement? In my experience, I've seen FOSS fixation on some Linux fora often going along a good dose of prejudice and misinformation > An exception seem to be OpenBSD devs and users - which regularly tattle that developers of the other BSD's are mostly using proprietary Apple products on their notebooks and smartphones (don't know, if this is true). What are we speaking about? What's the core target of your question, end users or developers? Speaking about end users I think we already covered this point Regarding developers, the only people which IMHO should really use the same OS they develop for are desktop developers. Providing on desktop my BSD of choice is NetBSD (have only played with others on PC, mostly use Free/Open on server) I can assess that most NetBSD **desktop** developers I know use NetBSD on their laptop/PC/embedded-board > So, what is the status of software freedom as a value in the BSD community? Are my observations correct? We value software freedom more than anything else, in fact we feel free to speak with our own minds and have divergent opinions from each other... free to use, contribute to, develop on/for the software we like best ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kernigh · 2018-12-13 04:02 OpenBSD is [free software](https://www.openbsd.org/policy.html), but installs [non-free firmware](https://man.openbsd.org/fw_update) (if you have the hardware), and also distributes non-free packages like [snes9x](https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/cgi- bin/cvsweb/ports/emulators/snes9x/). This is almost like Debian GNU/Linux, which installs [non-free firmware](https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware) and distributes [non-free packages](https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/#the-non-free- archive-area). The main difference is that Debian puts the non-free packages in a separate repository, and OpenBSD doesn't. OpenBSD doesn't [run binary blobs in the kernel](https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#39), because such blobs are security risks. Most reports of "binary blobs" refer to firmware, not to kernel drivers, so I don't know if other BSDs or Linux are still running kernel blobs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- illumosguy · 2018-12-13 04:27 > I don't know if other BSDs or Linux are still running kernel blobs Only FreeBSD with Nvidia and VirtualBox, but naturally they're not in base, just available as ports ---------------------------------------------------------------------- zmyrgel · 2018-12-13 06:24 > This seems not so much the case in the BSD world. An exception seem to be OpenBSD devs and users - which regularly tattle that developers of the other BSD's are mostly using proprietary Apple products on their notebooks and smartphones (don't know, if this is true). I don't think this has nothing to do with FOSS itself, mostly criticising other BSD developers development model. OpenBSD devs run the OpenBSD on their own computer so they use the systems they develop. The Apple thing seems to be pointed at FreeBSD developers who seem to be using Apple Mac's to develop FreeBSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- harryruhr · 2018-12-13 06:51 > > even Windows. > how do you elaborate this 'even' ? While I can understand from a technical point of view, that there are people in the BSD community who do like macOS, being a Unix-like OS and having FreeBSD bits in it, I fail to see why some *BSD admins seem to choose Windows as their desktop OS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- harryruhr · 2018-12-13 07:05 > > This seems not so much the case in the BSD world. >mmm, I just spoke for myself, are you sure you're not making a wrong assumption here, based on FUD spread by some Linux community? How do you support this statement Like I said, my own observations. In my experience there is very little FUD spread in the GNU/Linux community about BSD. On the contrary, many people do admire the BSD devs, especially from OpenBSD, for creating good software. This GPL vs BSD controversy isn't really a thing there. Theo de Raadt got even an award from the FSF (later disagreements between Theo and RMS not taken into account) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- illumosguy · 2018-12-13 07:10 >I can understand from a technical point of view.....I fail to see why some *BSD admins seem to choose Windows as their desktop OS ok, but, from a *technical point of view*, *why* wouldn't you? Note: I don't use Windows mainly because of price, ads, lack of privacy, and because I like what I use already too much. To an extent I also don't a because I'm by no means comfortable with C++ , PowerShell, VisualBasic..etc (been on Unix too much time), because of its huge codebase and the high hardware requirements. Fact is that though, none of this is a *technical motivation*, as basically, I know nothing about WindowsNT (I know DOS, OS/2 and Win9.x, but those were different times, kernel protection rings and whatsoever) Note2: don't assume are we all veteran admins there (not many elders hang around reddit) Programming/Homelab is just a second activity of mine, and I don't do it for money, albeit I've become quite proficient over the years ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ChipButtySplash · 2018-12-13 10:50 Speaking personally, it matters little what OS I use to do my job. The vast majority of servers I look after are Windows based but I use a MBA mostly (it's light). My desktop is currently Windows & Fedora dual boot and I have a laptop with FreeBsd on it. In a pinch, I could get to all them from any device I am using. I've always subscribed to the notion of you use a tool that gets the job done. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- harryruhr · 2018-12-13 11:33 I must object. To work to just to get things done, never question anything, being just a wheel in the gearbox isn't "professional". And fighting for something you believe in isn't "childish". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-12-13 12:03 Like most 15 year olds, you attempt to put things in my mouth I never said. Now get back to your Windows game and leave us alone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- daemonpenguin · 2018-12-13 15:46 Most of the people I encounter in the BSD communities are in favour of open source software, but practical in that they'll use the best tool for the job. I think it is more rare to encounter BSD users who are as exclusively dedicated to free and open source software, compared to people in the Linux community. Also, I'd like to point out that free software tends to refer to a specific sub-set of open source licenses, typically associated with GNU. The BSDs have more liberal open source licenses and tend to be more interested in developer freedom and flexibility than the concept of software freedom and free licenses. As a result, you'll tend to find a lot of people in the BSD communities are pro open source, while not being fans of free software. FreeBSD, for example, has been trying to remove free (GPL) software from its base, while focusing on being purely open source. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-12-13 18:27 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bobobo1618 · 2018-12-13 22:22 > In the GNU/Linux world most users are sharing a sceptical attitude towards proprietary software, although not everybody is so strict as the FSF. But many users do avoid using proprietary software and OS's. I think you got this impression by hanging around a small subgroup of the larger community and I don’t think it’s accurate. “Most” users in my experience use it for a particular purpose (like a development workstation or a home server) and are happy to use whatever tool gets the job done: A Windows machine for gaming, a Mac for iOS development, a retail Android device for flexibility, an iOS device for privacy reasons or just generally use proprietary software because it’s simply better than the alternatives for their purposes. I think in general, the same applies to BSD users. Like Linux, there are a small number of people who are using it because it adheres to their philosophies but the vast majority are using it to satisfy a particular use-case and are happy to use alternatives when necessary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- harryruhr · 2018-12-13 22:41 Look, I wanted to do a serious discussion. But you are the one who is making immature accusions because you don't like the views of others. So please get back to a professional style of conversation or stay out of this discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- geezerblab · 2018-12-13 23:14 Personally, I like the idea of a GPL, I like the idea of software licensing that requires you to at least provide the source and forbids you from telling clients how to compile or deploy it. If you bought an X, then I feel you paid for it and you have every right to look inside. But what I like about BSD is the simplicity, the elegance and the people tend to be a little more mature (sweeping generalization!) then Linux users. I'm pretty dedicated to the concept of freedom itself, and I have a very low tolerance for people and corporations that try to force you to buy or do things their way. I don't even like to use frameworks. But whether it's freedom to compile your software, freedom to repair your own stuff or the freedom to be heterosexual or homosexual or the freedom to listen to country music, in the end, it is freedom that I am dedicated to, and I suspect a lot of BSD folks would have similar views on that. Years ago, I was very anti Microsoft, and I still am, but Google, Oracle, Facebook, Amazon, eBay and friends are a little more concerning to me in the current age, and it has more to do with a kind of authoritarianism than software. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- motific · 2018-12-14 00:33 I can only speak for my experiences and from what I find the BSD communities are generally far more pragmatic and measured about the world we inhabit. I'd agree that the ideological bent of a lot of Linux zealots is just not present. Freedom involves choosing to contribute back, putting onerous conditions on the consumers of your code like forcing them to give their work up (potentially to their competitors) is not freedom. Taking mobile as an example; Android's fragmentation is a really bad thing, the ecosystem is a mess with many competing and nearly but not quite similar products allowing little to genuinely stand out and 'patchy' patching at best. In that regard I would argue that Apple have only been able to do the right thing (in terms of creating a relatively reliable and distinctive product) by closing off source as permitted by the BSD licence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-12-14 04:52 And it's not like a device firmware blob that openbsd permits has any less control over the system than a blob that runs on the host CPU. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Calkhas · 2018-12-16 12:07 Some of us are more interested in practicality than philosophical debates. Here are some points which I think are largely uncontroversial unless you are Richard Stallman. 1. Proprietary software isn't going to go away, and some of it is actually pretty good. 2. Some people want to re-use open source code in a context where the GPL is not practical, including in proprietary software, but also in purely in-house contexts where GPL makes things complicated (such as potential future distribution to partially-owned sub-entities of a parent corporation). 3. Some corporations who re-use open source code in this context realise it's much cheaper to commit their changes back upstream rather than pay developers to maintain the fork in-house for the next 10-20 years (yes, that is a serious timescale). You can decide that you don't care about these things, it is totally fine; I am not saying this is an invalid perspective. But you can also decide that maybe your software product would benefit from point (3) and actually you are happy even if it is adopted without being improved under point (2). I think a lot of BSD folks sit under that umbrella, and a lot of them receive corporate sponsorship to work on BSD for the licensing flexibility. > In the GNU/Linux world most users are sharing a sceptical attitude towards proprietary software I think "most users" is unfounded. "Most" home PC users, maybe. But a large number of users sit inside large corporates where Linux happens to be the correct tool for the job. Fifteen years ago the correct tool was Solaris. In another fifteen years, maybe it will be DragonFly BSD. :) What kind of open source licence the software is released under is of no interest or relevance, except to the legal division. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- whooshfrosted · 2018-12-31 07:56 I don't mind paying for software, it is closed source I don't like, because I don't trust what I am not allowed to see. "n exception seem to be OpenBSD devs and users - which regularly tattle that developers of the other BSD's are mostly using proprietary Apple products on their notebooks and smartphones (don't know, if this is true)." The point the OpenBSD people are making is, developers that don't use their own software, are not going to be as motivated to improve it, as the ones that do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- vermaden · 2019-01-05 18:43 I do not like solutions other the free and open source. Where I can (laptop/desktop/servers/NAS/...) I use FreeBSD or HardenedBSD. Sometime I use proprietary solutions like games or some specialized software but these are exceptions. I do not like the fact that some BSD developers prefer macOS to BSD but its their choice and their life. I have used both Windows and Mac OS X in the past but they did not fulfilled my needs, nether Linux did, FreeBSD was right choice for me. Maybe I will dig into OpenBSD when I will get more stints of free time as I also like its guts. ​ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2019-01-16 15:41 >I respect those people the same way I want them to respect me for choosing to use Solaris/Illumos almost exclusively plus some \*BSD on desktop. This is why I love \*BSD (Including OpenBSD, where I learned how to use UNIX) community. They know how to deal with each other with respect. I don't know any other community. Feel free to refer to me. :) I also get amused by the DPL, u/lamby, how he handles various critical situations etc. It is actually great to see people working together, with respect and fun. Acting maturely is big concern to avoid toxicity among any kind of community project. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lamby · 2019-01-17 09:34 > I also get amused by the DPL, u/lamby, how he handles various critical situations etc hm?