Why Choose BSD? reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-02 22:40 Lately I have been asking about what the difference between Linux and Windows is and why anyone would choose Linux. The answers focused around: Custability, Security, Ownership. People like'd that they could choose which software ran and how it ran, how it looked and how everything operated, etc. For security they liked that they could see the code before making it executable and that despite being open source patches were available and quick. Lastly ownership because it was free, and once they had it they had near ultimate control. So this leads me to BSD. Why choose BSD over Windows and maybe even further over Linux? What does BSD offer versus something as widespread/user-friendly as Windows and something as customizable as Linux? Is BSD open source? And lastly what made you choose BSD and how has your experience been - good or bad? :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FrontMeringue · 2018-10-02 23:03 Why over Windows: It's a UNIX. If you like it, it's a big benefit. IMO it's better designed. It's also open source. Why over linux: a lot of people when installing a user friendly thing like Ubuntu instead of noticing that it comes with a graphical setup by default start to get irritated: oh, it overrides the key binding I have for this program, and why does it not save core dumps? how do I disable the crash reporter (did I just leak information about my jobplace's code and violated my work contract?). You are left with some of the less user-friendly linux distros, and the BSDs aren't so bad in comparison. Gentoo and Arch seem to try to make things intentionally hard. All the BSDs have an installer! The BSDs are strong in some areas, like networking and servers. People argue they are very user-friendly for those use cases. Not so much for desktop/laptop use, but it can work (I'm using it that way). All the BSDs are open source. I've chosen to go back to NetBSD because it has a great community and I've made good friends, and was nostalgic for it. I've had to do some work to make my hardware work well, and it's still not perfect in terms of hardware support. I can put up with minor issues but others run it in a VM or on a few better supported machines. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-10-02 23:12 All the reasons you said for choosing Linux are reasons to choose FreeBSD. Almost all the same important software that runs on Linux will run on FreeBSD, too. Plus FreeBSD is known for its stability during both major and minor upgrades and long term running without a million and one variations of the same kernel and public infighting over an attempt to become the next Windows. EDIT: Just noticed this was /r/BSD and not /r/FreeBSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-02 23:14 Sorry for all the questions but you seem super knowledgeable. What is the difference between Unix and Linux as you said BSD is a Unix? That is cool to hear it is open source as I heard Unix was closed source? Also why are BSD's strong for networking and servers and not so much for home use, can you expand on this a bit? Would it be fair to say that BSDS are even more bare bones and thus more customizable than distros of linux that come a bit more set up and default though much much less than Windows? Am I on the right track with me thinking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-02 23:28 Hah totally okay, it was a great answer regardless! :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SamBeastie · 2018-10-03 00:10 Someone else is already probably typing the answer but GNU (the actual tools you use on a “Linux” system) is a clone of Unix and uses Linux as its kernel (basically a hardware control interface). BSD can trace its lineage back to the original AT&T Unix. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-03 00:24 Awesome reply :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bit_of_hope · 2018-10-03 00:36 Unix is an old operating system, that many modern ones are based on. More broadly, Unix-like operating systems are ones that work similarly to actually Unix-based ones. Linux is a kernel used by many Unix-like operating systems. BSD operating systems have evolved from the original 70s Unix. The 70s Unix was closed source and so were and still are many of its descendants. However, the BSD branch of Unix was one of the earliest free/open source projects (the terms weren't even invented or well know back then) and in the 90s all of the proprietary parts were replaced. Nearly all modern BSD systems are free and open source. BSDs are well known for good networking performance. NetBSD has held the record for intercontinental data transfer speed for the longest time. I wouldn't say they aren't good for home use. I use them at home all the time. They do require you to learn them and unix in general pretty well to make good use of them, though. To an extent you can say BSDs are more barebones and customizable. There are Linux distros that are even more minimalist, but most popular distributions like Ubuntu or Mint are much larger in file size and system requirements than any of the main BSDs. More minimal distros like Arch Linux, Debian's netboot version, or Gentoo are pretty comparable with BSD systems. Customizability is a whole another can of worms. I could make an Ubuntu install do just about anything that I can make an OpenBSD install do, for instance, but the OpenBSD might come with better built in tools to do certain things and the solution may be more elegant. Windows is another topic entirely, and not even comparable with the kinds of setups I prefer. You're mostly on right track, but remember that BSD operating systems are quite different from each other, and specifying which one you're talking about is usually a good idea. You can't really make very good blanket statements about them because they're in some ways much more dissimilar to each other than Linux distros are to each other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FrontMeringue · 2018-10-03 00:39 I've only referred to windows vs. BSD in this case. Windows is very un-UNIX-like. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-03 00:43 you clarified a lot thank you :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- boy_named_su · 2018-10-03 02:13 I can only speak for OpenBSD. I chose it because it's very simple and very secure, even compared to Linux It's even more "free" open source than Linux, in that it has the "Berkeley" license, not the "GPL" license, meaning you don't need to contribute back if you change something ---------------------------------------------------------------------- one_is_the_loneliest · 2018-10-03 02:41 Except for the elephant in the room: docker. I wanted to set up NextCloud with LibreOffice Online, and their primary release channel is docker. FreeBSD has experimental docker container support, but it didn't even finish downloading the image the last time I tried. LibreOffice Online also only supports Linux, so getting it compiled on a jail seemed like it would probably be an uphill battle. However, *most* other software works just fine. I use it to host websites and a few pet projects, and it works great. It's really a pity that things are going Linux-only. I really hate wasting my time fixing things in other projects to keep FreeBSD support going because the developers only care about one platform. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-10-03 02:46 If you're going to use FreeBSD, QUIT TRYING TO USE LINUX TOOLS ON FREEBSD!! THAT'S WHAT JAILS ARE FOR YOU AMATEUR!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- one_is_the_loneliest · 2018-10-03 02:52 LibreOffice Online isn't in ports and I'm pretty sure it doesn't compile on FreeBSD anyway. I haven't tested that, because the compile process is apparently pretty involved. I'd love to use jails instead. I'm only considering docker in this case because it's the distribution mechanism for that piece of software and it's the way I'm going to be able to get *any* support from the project. If you know if a way to get that piece of software working, I'm very interested. I just saw preliminary docker support in FreeBSD 11, so I tried it, but it didn't work. Maybe the Linux emulator is good enough for LO Online, but I doubt it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-03 02:53 Can you detail a bit more what you mean about this "you don't need to contribute back if you change something". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- swinny89 · 2018-10-03 03:30 If you're coming from Windows, Linux and BSD are very similar. Linux generally has much more diversity and options, where BSDs are more cohesive systems. Linux is a small but very important part of a large group of operating systems which vary extremely in every aspect. One end of the spectrum is almost unrecognizably related to the other end of the spectrum. Many parts of Linux operating systems are designed by various organizations, and they are often not cooperative, or have conflicting goals. There are countless solutions to a single problem in the world of Linux. In BSD world, many things are designed for and by one organization or group. There certainly is significant code sharing between BSDs and even Linux based operating systems, but the BSDs are much less likely to incorporate tools which were not designed for BSDs. OpenBSD is probably one of the more extreme examples of this, as they have the most strict security practices, so they can't accept programs which are not up to their standards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- boy_named_su · 2018-10-03 03:55 This probably explains it better than i can https://fosswire.com/post/2007/04/the-differences-between-the-gpl- lgpl-and-the-bsd/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mgladiethor · 2018-10-03 05:55 because princess syndrome and you like pain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-03 06:06 Hahaha k this is the best answer so far. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Chousuke · 2018-10-03 08:05 I run Fedora on my desktop, but OpenBSD on my router. For me, the main reasons to use OpenBSD are 1. It's minimalistic, secure, and includes everything I need in the base OS, and nothing more, and has opinionated, sane defaults 2. The documentation is superior to everything else 3. It performs well enough 4. it's easy to use as a router Fedora on the desktop OTOH is mainly due to 1. Software support, hardware support and performance. This is where the BSDs fall short for my use case 2. Fedora is the closest to a "everything just works" desktop Linux distro I've tried ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DHermit · 2018-10-03 10:34 The reason I stopped using FreeBSD was driver support. Sleeping and the touchscreen/digitizer of my laptop just didn't work really well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Adwait_Tilak · 2018-10-03 10:37 Hi ! You should ask yourself what do you need form an operating system. You should choose you operating system as per your requirements. Let's say you want to play games, use Word or Excel, surf the web all while the operating system does the technical work for you and you don't care about the philosophy. You just want to get your work done. Then, I say go for Windows. That is what windows is; You, pay for the convenience. Let's say you want to play games, surf the web etc. AND you care about what your computer does and you have a certain philosophy about controling your pc,licensing,privacy etc. Then Linux(Arch or Gentoo) or BSD is your best bet.In BSD and Linux You probably get the best security,truly have control of your pc, compile packages, work like a madman to fix errors and learn alot about unix-like systems(especially, having a lot of fun with, scripts, different shells,window managers,automation of tasks, setting up servers and so much more). Now for the differences Between Linux and BSD. Linux is technically just a kernel. Remember this :- Linux is just a kernel. What this means is that the linux distros you try, are just programs added on top of the kernel. BSD on the other hand is NOT just a kernel but a complete operating system. This means all the programs and the kernel are tested individually and an operating system. This gives bsd more stability and has less bugs while also reducing the likelihood of the system to break down. There is also the difference that linux and bsd are licensed differently. I recommended you try unixlike operating systems and make your own opinions because in the end all we can give you are opinions and thoughts. You have to decide what is the best for you. Take care :) Note : Anybody feel free to correct me if I said anything wrong. I myself am quite new to BSD. I have Arch Linux , Windows 10 and FreeBSD installed. I mainly use Arch Linux and am learning the in and outs of freebsd. Windows is for my parents 'cause they just can't use linux even though I have tried to convert them to linux. P.S. :- My name is Adwait Tilak and I am from India so sorry if my English is bad. My native tongue is Marathi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FUZxxl · 2018-10-03 11:14 BSD systems are developed in one large project which encompasses the kernel and all basic user land programs. This way, all the programs are tuned to work together effectively and all work according to the same conventions and design rules. This makes getting around the system much easier than on Linux where every single program comes from a different project and each project thinks their way is the only way to write code, so each tool has different conventions you have to remember. I found the documentation of FreeBSD to be much better than anything you can find on Linux. For example, on BSD systems each device driver has its own man page listing options and compatible devices. You don't have that on Linux. FreeBSD has jails and ZFS, both of which are absolute killer features. While people are trying to port ZFS to Linux and btrfs exists, too, neither are as stable and easy to use as ZFS on FreeBSD or Solaris. There is no systemd on BSD systems which is a huge plus for me. Lastly, I prefer the BSD license over the GPL but that is only a minor concern. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J_Tarasovic · 2018-10-03 12:18 I wouldn't conflate widespread and user-friendly. I've used Unix based OSes for a while now but always had Windows machines as well (going back to 3.1). I finally got rid of my last remaining Windows box when it forced an upgrade that renamed almost every file in My Documents. Struggled for a bit to fix it in Windows and then spun up a Linux VM in VirtualBox and fixed it in 15 minutes. I backed up everything and wiped it right then. Maybe if I was a PowerShell wizard I could have fixed it in the same time frame but why would I spend all that time learning Microsoft's proprietary thing when I already know standard, POSIX shell that works on AIX, HP UX, OSX, BSD, Linux, Solaris, etc (so literally every other machine I've ever worked on)? Additionally, for those that care about privacy, Windows draconian TOS and dragnet spying are hardly "user-friendly". Perhaps you meant, "more familiar to me". /rant ---------------------------------------------------------------------- reebs12 · 2018-10-03 14:21 Linux is **not** an operating system!! It is just a kernel! It is like saying kFreeBSD is an OS! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- reebs12 · 2018-10-03 14:27 Ubuntu is probably one of the worst GNU+Linux out there! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DispassionatePuff · 2018-10-03 14:30 If **Windows** can port Docker, so can BSD. It also makes it distinctly *not* a Linux tool. Jails might be a find backend system to Docker, but it's not a one-to- one replacement. The way Docker runs containers is rather boring and uninteresting, but the real value comes with Docker's composability features, the registry-based distribution and workflow, and the overlay filesystem which cut down build times. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheSecurityBug · 2018-10-03 16:14 Because...? Not that I disagree with you (I'm not a fan either) but you didn't offer any justification. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-10-03 16:23 And .NET is NOT a Windows tool cause it's been ported to Linux, eh? And you think jails is a backend to Docker, too?! Jeez. Redditors never fail to amaze me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Moises95 · 2018-10-03 19:48 In the past it was a good distribution that works but now there are lots of things that doesn't, even in default install. At least that have been my experience this years. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Raventai · 2018-10-03 21:35 Why not windows: stability, security, cost and control. MS is pushing windows users to windows 10 and I really don't like it. Why lot Linux: I have been dabling with Linux on and off for 20 years or so, last time was fedora core 3, it was wonderfully stable but the diversity in Linux was a problem, simple example the fwd\back buttons on my mouse were backwards, but all the "fixes" for various flavors of Linux did not work, each distro handled this a bit differently. It took days off reading through forums to finally find out where the config file was that was maping the mice buttons on that flavor of Linux, once that file was modified all was well. I am hoping BSD will be better in this regard and it is an entire cohesive system with documentation (if I can get it to install) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NerdVsGeek · 2018-10-03 22:41 >And you think jails is a backend to Docker, too?! No, that's not what they said. They said that jails might be a find \[sic\] backend system to Docker... Which means that the real value of Docker isn't the fact that it lets you use containers: it's composability, registry, and it's subsequent workflow and **if** \*BSD had the same tooling around jails that didn't require massive amounts of custom scripting, then this would have tremendous appeal to any company doing cloud-scale deployments. Joyent are but one company that see the value here and that's why they implemented LX zones for SmartOS - it lets them leverage the same Docker/Kubernetes stack that companies are deploying for their technology stacks. Make no mistake - Docker and Kubernetes are the reason why there's 100 000:1 ratio between Linux servers and FreeBSD servers in the world and why I get paid to work on Linux-based technology instead of FreeBSD, even though FreeBSD is demonstrably better in nearly all the areas except jail/container orchestration at scale ​ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TheSecurityBug · 2018-10-03 22:57 Thanks for explaining. I've heard similar complaints from colleagues. I just dislike the bloat and the years of making their own init system and DE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-10-04 00:23 > Docker and Kubernetes are the reason why there's 100 000:1 ratio between Linux servers and FreeBSD servers in the world You are so lost, you are beyond help. I can tell your complete education comes from reading headlines and you have no experience of your own. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NerdVsGeek · 2018-10-04 04:23 Really? No experience of my own? I was programming on Unix systems before FreeBSD existed as a project. My first job in tech was programming games for a large scale information service when 110 and 300 baud modems were a thing. My second job was a sysadmin and developer for a smaller information service that was run on top of 386BSD. I think I have some experience in the Unix world. FreeBSD, by some estimates, has about 1.5% of web servers on the internet. However, as a web developer for a small consultancy you might be aware that for every front end server there can be dozens of back end servers. As someone who works with all major cloud providers, I can tell you that these are Linux in vast numbers beyond a humans ability to count. But what about JunOS you might ask? It’s not FreeBSD, it’s effectively proprietary that happens to be based on FreeBSD. Their competitors and similar networking companies are Linux based, like Palo alto, Ubiquiti, ForcePoint and F5. Cisco uses Linux for its ASA line, with switches and the like running IOS and/or IOS-XR, which are both proprietary. Moving down the stack, we have countless SOHO routers and access points all based on Linux. The 250,000+ systems my company’s customers run are all Linux based. The 385 physical servers we run, and the 40+ virtual machines most of each of them run, are all damned near Linux based except 4 TrueNAS boxes (note - edit to expand on this) and a few special purpose systems running FreeBSD that a few others and I maintain. And these are just the physical or virtual servers and network appliances, not counting the uncountable containers running micro services in the cloud providers data centers. As much as I love FreeBSD and use it at home for most things, and use it at work where free to do so, I can tell you without a moment of hesitation and without doubt that you are very much mistaken about the reality of the modern cloud and data center. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jsprada · 2018-10-04 05:29 There are a lot of great replies here, but I think it's also worth mentioning licensing. FreeBSD's licensing scheme is pretty fantastic! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- reebs12 · 2018-10-04 07:45 Because everytime I use it for more than a month or two, it starts displaying a system error message every time i reboot it. Annoying as hell - This is one example. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- darkempath · 2018-10-04 16:44 Is BSD open source? Seriously? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Raventai · 2018-10-04 17:09 The BSD liscence is very libertarian! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Barf2k18 · 2018-10-05 10:06 Ubuntu, like Debian and RedHat/Fedora is blessed with the buggy and messy "systemd" - the reason why, I'm sticking with Devuan Linux and lurking BSD forums, contemplating a shift to BSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Losraio2 · 2018-10-08 09:43 Because the Linux userland is an unstable and buggy mess. Every time the kernel updates it fixes one thing but breaks two others. It is said that open-source software is unstable because of its nature, but that doesn't seem to be the case with bsd. I can only quote impeccable stability and QA on FreeBSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-08 09:52 Doesn't seem like a lot of people complain about Linux being that buggy though? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Losraio2 · 2018-10-08 09:58 Lts kernel 4.1 crashes under any network activity. Kernel versions 4.12 to 4.17 broke audio through headphones. Installing Nvidia drivers broke the boot process. Systemd. Enough said In February 2017 some Ubuntu security updates broke a lot of systems. My experience with Linux has been bitter really. I've experienced so many deal-breaking regressions that I eventually installed BSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Raventai · 2018-10-08 21:19 This may be a bit inflammatory but I see a mess brewing over in Linux Land. https://itsfoss.com/linux-code-of-conduct/ https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/ I am hoping BSD with it's more libertarian and business focus, ie; more functional tool less a "movement" will avoid contraversy such as this. As an end user I really don't care who makes the code as long as it works for my needs. This contraversy is threatening the progress of the Linux project. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WhichEdge · 2018-10-08 22:09 Isn't Free BSD having the same deal? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Raventai · 2018-10-08 22:21 Not that I know of? But I am far from an expert ---------------------------------------------------------------------- NerdAtTheTerminal · 2018-10-20 10:02 `Bloated` Leave alone systemd, it tries to be too user friendly and abstract everything, perhaps leading to lesser efficiency and bloat. For a noob I'd suggest fedora over Ubuntu, because RH has a better history than canonical, at least afaik. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mgF0z · 2018-10-24 18:22 Did you ever try Debian Stable? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Losraio2 · 2018-10-24 18:29 Yes I did and it's stability is remarkable, however that comes at a cost: ancient packages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mgF0z · 2018-10-25 05:55 Yeah... true... Debian Stable is the best balance for me on servers and my laptop but its horses for courses...