Disappointed in FreeBSD CoC reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 09:36 This is the reply I got from code of conduct report. I am shocked that basically they are saying it's fine to scream abuse and swear words at people.. why on earth do they think this kind of behavior is acceptable? Dear rain1, We have reviewed this incident previously, at the request of another reporter, and have determined that the incident does not represent a material violation of the Code of Conduct. Both parties in the interaction had a long history in the Open Source world together; the outbursts, although certainly not ideal, were not really out-of-step with communication norms in that setting, and between those individuals. The event organizers further do not feel that it violated the norms of the community there gathered, and I am not aware of any complaints from bystanders who were in the room, nor from either of the parties involved. There is therefore no action that we intend to take, although we have noted to the FreeBSD developer involved that the outburst was less than ideal, and not an appropriate way to represent the FreeBSD Project in a public discussion. They have been encouraged to speak to Theo directly, but the Conduct Review Team's involvement for the moment ends there. If there are any more particulars you wish to share in terms of perceived injury, reasons why this should be treated as a material violation of the Code of Conduct, or of what you think an appropriate remedy would be, please do feel free to share it; but understand that all interactions are evaluated within a context, and swearing and loud disagreement are not necessarily material violations of the FreeBSD Code of Conduct, even if they may be representative of behaviour that falls short of our ideals. Thanks, Juli. >On 11 June 2018 at 11:15 >someone from freebsd project (I don't know who) is shouting abusive and swear words at the speaker at this time in a BSD talk https://youtu.be/UaQpvXSa4X8?t=1132 > >please deal with this code of conduct violation >_______________________________________________ >conduct@freebsd.org mailing list >https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/conduct >To unsubscribe, send any mail to "conduct-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 09:51 Yeah, it apparently wasn't a violation of the CoC to attack Lunduke either, which was arguably worse with how much attention people have been paying to twitter in general. Really sad to see a lack of internal consistency there. Theo's definitely been incendiary in the past, but there's no need for anyone from FreeBSD to react like this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ZoDalek · 2018-06-12 09:57 The behaviour in the video is heated and a bit immature but I don't think it's abusive. To me the response is very reasonable. There's no need to escalate if this settles it for those involved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 10:15 put yourself in the shoes of the speaker though, imagine someone shouting at you like that when you are already nervous trying to do your best to just give your talk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 10:20 I can say one thing for sure, that isn't an appropriate way to conduct yourself and it is a shame that freebsd wont condemn it.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- e02ea3c3450d441 · 2018-06-12 10:32 To the OP: What was your goal in writing this email? How should they have dealt with the issue? I am seriously interested in your motivation to write such an email. My opinion: You know that's something definitely wrong when two people (that know each other for a long time) cannot shout at each other without someone crying about a CoC violation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- stf · 2018-06-12 10:39 Did you ever read the leaked internal emails discussing the CoC? They attacked and insulted their own people who dared question it to no consequence. Think about that, an internal discussion on how to conduct yourself the proponents wound up slinging shit. Why would them yelling at Theo be any different. The whole CoC is a way for them to just oust people they don't like easier, as long as you are on the perceived 'right' side you get a pass. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crest_ · 2018-06-12 10:40 What do you expect them to do? Fire him? Make him stand in a corner? Take his commit bits (if he has any) hostage? This isn't a kindergarden were naughty words are prohibited because someone said so. Some ideas are just fucking stupid and should be called out. Theo insinuated a lot while complaining about the same to get the response he wanted and he got it (the admission that someone from the FreeBSD foundation agreed to an embargo on upcoming Intel CPU bugs). Whoever reacted to Theo's provocation with such an outburst should work on his self control, but how can the FreeBSD core or CoC team help him with that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crest_ · 2018-06-12 10:41 Did you look at any of Theo de Raadt's plentiful previous presentations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 11:28 >Whoever reacted to Theo's provocation with such an outburst should work on his self control, but how can the FreeBSD core or CoC team help him with that? Well, being in that room there were two different FreeBSD people yelling at Theo for his incorrect assumption. That aside, if the FreeBSD CoC team isn't able to help govern these sorts of outbursts, what's the point of having it? Is this not verbal abuse from members of the FreeBSD community in public? Are they not subject to the rules laid out in the new CoC? Or does that only apply online somehow? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 11:30 If the CoC cannot be enforced here, where there is clearly verbal abuse from people representing the FreeBSD community and/or foundation, is there any reason to keep or respect the CoC at all? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 11:33 my goal was to raise awareness of this issue so that this nasty behavior can be used as an example of how we should NOT act to each other, not just as developers but as human beings. Sadly all I have seen from freebsd is downplaying this and even defending it. I don't know why it's so hard to say: Yeah, this was bad. Nobody should act like this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 11:33 No I did not see that but they are being very uncharitable to me on the IRC for raising this CoC issue lets just say that and leave it there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 11:35 it doesn't make it ok to act this way to someone just because you think they are thick skinned. this shouldn't be about theo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- e02ea3c3450d441 · 2018-06-12 11:54 But to be honest, two people shouting at each other in a heated discussion is not what I would call nasty behaviour. I would call it simply impolite. And bringing some emotions to the table is sometimes even helpful to the case. Simple example: Sometimes kids need to cry in order to get back to "normal". Calling for a CoC enforcement here leads to a "Cry Wolf" effect. The more the people do it, the more everybody else tends to ignore it. If then a real abusive behaviour happens, nobody listens any more and tends to ignore the situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 11:58 It was only really the audience member shouting at the speaker, who responded calmly. I don't agree with the cry wolf thing, this seems to be like exactly the sort of thing that needs to be addressed: shouldn't freebsd make a public statement against this behavior though? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolomonKull · 2018-06-12 12:08 Maybe those people dont like rats, tattletales, and cry babies with thin skin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- icantthinkofone · 2018-06-12 12:12 Any attempt to regulate human behavior will always fail. Perhaps you can suggest the committee put up 15% of their budget to form a committee that spends all their time investigating such things, full- time, and supply them with uniforms and badges. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 12:14 Also known as: holding them to the standard they set for themselves. Don't establish a set of rules and then act like they don't matter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 12:31 I can understand you calling me those names but consider that this is a public event.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 12:32 A modest proposal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolomonKull · 2018-06-12 12:33 Surprise: people don't like rats in public, either! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolomonKull · 2018-06-12 12:37 >Don't establish a set of rules and then act like they don't matter. Don't act like rules can't be bent or broken without causing people (who weren't even involved with the conflict) to have their tiny feelies hurt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-12 12:43 I submitted the original report Juli refers to, and have posted their frankly disappointing response on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/stevelord/status/1005731248919207936). I get that changing communities takes time and is difficult, but after all the drama when the CoC was put in this is deeply disappointing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-12 12:49 If I was to shout "Shut the fuck up" repeatedly to stop you from speaking, I should be thrown out of the room in *any* situation. Repeatedly shouting "Shut the fuck up" isn't debate. It is (under FreeBSD's own Code of Conduct) "Sustained disruption of discussion." If there's a problem with the CoC, this is an opportunity to update the CoC. There should be a process to deal with reports and feed that back into the update process. What shouldn't happen is that FreeBSD [saying](https://twitter.com/stevelord/status/1006511904301441027), "This doesn't constitute abuse", or that "it's tough for us to say unequivocally either that the behaviour was reasonable or that it was unacceptable." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- e02ea3c3450d441 · 2018-06-12 12:50 No, definitely not in this case because simply one mature adults shouts at another mature adult. FreeBSD should stand up if someone close to their organisation (member, committer, ...) clearly shows abusive behaviour that's not tolerable! And in such a case, they should think about proper sanctions (whatever that is). But IMO this should be normal and there should be no need for a CoC in before. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-12 12:50 I get who the speaker is, but the point is to apply things even handedly. When someone shouts this at a nervous first-time speaker they'll be able to cite that the official FreeBSD position is that this doesn't constitute a Code of Conduct violation, despite "Sustained disruption of discussion" explicitly being in the CoC. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lbmn · 2018-06-12 12:51 A lot of people are very disappointed with the CoC. Stop supporting FreeBSD and help start a non-communist fork. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 13:00 mature is definitely not how I'd describe that.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 13:01 thank you thatstevelord, I was disappointed too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-12 13:23 > Theo's definitely been incendiary in the past, but there's no need for anyone from FreeBSD to react like this. This appears to be the main problem with FreeBSD's responses. The problem is that this is not about Theo or what he said. It's about people shouting down a speaker. The question FreeBSD need to ask themselves is that if the speaker was someone else, say a 15 year old girl speaking for the first time, would they react the same way? If the answer is no, then that means there's a double standard in place. If there's going to be a CoC it needs to be evenly and fairly enforced. The violation was with the two guys shouting, not with Theo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- s279 · 2018-06-12 13:37 As someone who enjoys the fruits of the community, but has never dipped their toes into taking part, the conduct in the video is not professional and shouldn't be accepted in something purporting to be a professional collaboration. The behaviour that was impugned is not the same as the others in the room, nor is it escalating to that point it actually gave me a shock when I first saw the video. It doesn't matter who you are, whether thick or thin skinned, you should be able to communicate civilly or you should refrain from attempting to communicate entirely. TL;DR: It's pointless having a CoC if you don't enforce it, even if you are enforcing it against your "friends". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolomonKull · 2018-06-12 13:51 I bet you couldn't accurately define communism without a dictionary or Google. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wilyarti · 2018-06-12 13:52 The CoC.... Only bans hugs and misgendering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wilyarti · 2018-06-12 13:58 The CoC seems to be a political tool to target who the core don't like. Good on Theo, I donate to the OpenBSD foundation every month. I stopped donating to the FreeBSD foundation after they implemented that CoC. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 14:12 You're the only one implying that anyone's feelings were hurt. I just want FreeBSD to be internally consistent. Either the CoC means something, and there should be action taken to address the abusive behaviour of their community towards Theo, it means nothing, in which case there's no point in having it, or it's meant to be selectively enforced, in which case they should be clear that the CoC is only going to be used to defend %s people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-12 14:57 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- craftkiller · 2018-06-12 15:03 Psh, I can guess the url to the Wikipedia page for communism :-P ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ddsci · 2018-06-12 15:10 Wah wah someone was mean plz punish him ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rkoberlin · 2018-06-12 16:13 I thought we were all over this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tringsen · 2018-06-12 16:27 So someone in the back of the room raised his voice to be heard over the rest of the room. Doesn't sound like a problem. But assuming it is, what's the remedy? Does Theo want an apology? this is all so vague. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-12 16:36 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tringsen · 2018-06-12 16:39 So what should they have done, specifically? The purpose of the CoC is to help remedy harm. What's the right way to make things right? Theo isn't calling for an apology. The original post didn't have any request beyond 'do something' in it. what's the appropriate response? Or is this another just another way to make a competing project look bad with vague innuendo and over-reaching conclusions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tringsen · 2018-06-12 17:00 So raising awareness is one thing. What should the person who had the outburst at Theo do at this point? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-06-12 17:19 conduct@ (mediation) is sort of like the judicial review system to the CoC's legislation. Core writes a certain set of guidelines for behaviors we think are unacceptable in the community. conduct@ reviews the specific circumstances and determines an appropriate action. Like the judicial system, someone has to bring a case to the court (report to conduct@) for the court to do anything. (As far as I know, there have been literally zero truthful reports to conduct@ about people hugging them, virtually or otherwise.) That's a roundabout way of saying — **hugs are not in any way banned**, and repeating it ad infinitum is low-effort trolling. Have you tried to report someone hugging you that you felt was inappropriate? Or ever heard of someone being reported to conduct for hugs? If so, what action did the conduct committee take? Do you think it was unreasonable? Like in this situation, conduct@ is free to interpret reports of unwanted hugging and take no action, *if* they feel no action is warranted. That does not mean they endorse the behavior of the FreeBSD developer in this instance. *They absolutely do not*. For what it's worth, neither do I. I believe this kind of angry yelling is totally unacceptable and counter-productive, and I think conduct could have rebuked the developer in stronger words, and perhaps done more to assure it does not happen again. \- Just my 2¢ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-06-12 17:24 The document is not a series of black and white rules that can be applied literally. There are no explicit actions associated with violation of any particular guideline. And they are just that — guidelines. The document is generally in place to protect *the people the abuse is directed at*. It would be an entirely different thing if Theo filed a conduct complaint, rather than random bystanders. My understanding, and I think conduct@'s too, is that Theo has pretty flameproof pants and isn't too bothered by being yelled at a little. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tringsen · 2018-06-12 17:33 Having watched the video, it looks like Theo is trolling. He's trying to get FreeBSD to admit that they are under embargo. He goes on to say that OpenBSD was rebuffed by Intel to get information, and they committed a change to turn off lazy FP as a result based on rumors. He then tries to induce FreeBSD into committing a change, which would break any embargo they are under and likely damage their relationship with Intel, if such an an embargo exists. So one must ask where did OpenBSD get the information they used to do the commit? It all stinks of a setup, with the added bonus that Theo got an over-sized reaction from "somebody at FreeBSD" that's being turned into false outrage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 17:52 >So what should they have done, specifically? Whatever it is the compliance body determines is appropriate for public verbal abuse and disrupting a talk. Why have rules if they're not enforced? >The purpose of the CoC is to help remedy harm. It's also literally codifying how FreeBSD community members should behave, both online and offline. There are two people recorded in this video violating that code of conduct. >Theo isn't calling for an apology. The original post didn't have any request beyond 'do something' in it. what's the appropriate response? Theo should not have to ask for an apology, nor do I believe he will. But this is not about Theo, this is about whether the CoC means anything. "Do something" is completely within the realm of what can be expected from conduct@, as there's no stringent consequences for CoC violations, so it could be anything from "hey, don't do that next time" to "we're revoking your commit bit", depends on what they decide. However, claiming that no violation occurred when there's video evidence to the contrary, sends a message that the CoC only sometimes applies, if at all. If they want to be taken seriously, it needs to be enforced across the board. No one's trying to make FreeBSD look bad here, this is merely an attempt to hold them to their own standards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 17:56 >It would be an entirely different thing if Theo filed a conduct complaint, rather than random bystanders Why should that matter? Are the rules outlined in the CoC only applicable if someone gets offended? The codified expectation of behaviour means nothing until someone's upset? >Theo has pretty flameproof pants and isn't too bothered by being yelled at a little. This misses the point, just because Theo was the target of abuse doesn't make it any less a violation of the CoC. So does the CoC apply to all FreeBSD community members at all times as it sounds? Or does it only sometimes apply? If only sometimes, under which circumstances are people allowed to file reports of misconduct? It's important for the FreeBSD community to play by their own rules if they want the CoC to be taken seriously, and they're not off to a great start from what I've seen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- qci · 2018-06-12 18:50 I respect Theo, but he is not fair to FreeBSD. Everyone knows it. There is no need to shout at him, but I understand if someone does it. There are even more annoying stories like "haha! you have a security bug, but I won't tell you!". Let's face it, he is not very social and he is a provocateur,... and a troll. To the one unnamed person who shouted: you lost the argument. Oh.. and.. fuck the FreeBSD CoC. Only people with mental issues need this crap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michaelmrose · 2018-06-12 19:15 Do you really want to encourage people to gain status and importance in the community by picking apart exchanges they aren't a part of in order to find things to be offended by? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michaelmrose · 2018-06-12 19:21 People act differently towards different people this isn't a double standard its the human race. I would be kinder towards a 15 year old giving her first talk because human behavior is a process of modeling others behavior in order to act in such a way as to get positive results. An idiot would know that theo would be vastly less likely to be upset that forementioned party. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 19:33 I'm not sure where I led you to believe any such thing. I do, however, expect people to abide by the rules that are supposed to be governing their conduct both online and IRL. If the FreeBSD CoC is not going to be enforced in such a public location as BSDCan, then what is the purpose of having it at all? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 20:47 So because it's Theo, somehow the **Code** of **Conduct**, as in the rules defining how to behave as part of the FreeBSD community, is no longer applicable? This is not about Theo, this is about FreeBSD not enforcing its own rules. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 20:48 That's really not relevant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- deux3xmachina · 2018-06-12 20:54 Hey look at that, an apology was made to Theo and the room: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=152883510311011&w=2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- e02ea3c3450d441 · 2018-06-12 20:56 Most simple thing in the world. Apologize: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=152883510311011&w=2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsdimp · 2018-06-12 20:58 That person was me. I was wrong. https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=152883510311011&w=2 has my apology. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 21:02 I think that's really cool of you to do this. You are setting a good example others can follow if they make a mistake. much respect. P.S. oh, so you're actually one of the people on the team who deals with code of conduct reports. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-06-12 21:19 > Why should that matter? Are the rules outlined in the CoC only applicable if someone gets offended? Yes, the *guidelines* outline behaviors that *may* reasonably lead to someone taking offense and requesting formal mediation. They aren't hard and fast rules. They're there to protect the targets of abuse. > The codified expectation of behaviour means nothing until someone's upset? Again, these are guidelines. And yes. If no one is upset, what's the problem? > This misses the point, just because Theo was the target of abuse doesn't make it any less a violation of the CoC. The world isn't as black and white as you want it to be. Does the behavior run contrary to the values espoused by the project? Absolutely. Conduct@ acknowledges that and the developer acknowledges that. If *Theo were upset*, and sought remediation, different action might be taken. Yes, CoC applies to everyone in all spaces. But it is not a prescriptive set of black and white laws. Conduct@ works on reports. If no one is upset enough to report something, is it really abuse? People are allowed to file reports any time they please. I don't want to say 3rd party reports are entirely unwelcome, but certainly first- hand reports are the most actionable. > It's important for the FreeBSD community to play by their own rules I would agree with that. I would also say: they are. What they're not doing is playing by the totally made-up, strawman rules that get flung around in these threads. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-06-12 21:21 > > So what should they have done, specifically? > Whatever it is the compliance body determines is appropriate The compliance body's determination of appropriate response is quoted in the post: > There is therefore no action that we intend to take, although we have noted to the FreeBSD developer involved that the outburst was less than ideal, and not an appropriate way to represent the FreeBSD Project in a public discussion. They have been encouraged to speak to Theo directly, but the Conduct Review Team's involvement for the moment ends there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-12 21:23 Yes, and other than being in the CoC committee, /u/bsdimp is the current top all time committer to FreeBSD by commit count. You're saying he should go because he told theo who is obviously trolling to STFU. Theo wasn't a victim in this story and codes of conduct aren't meant to make committers into perfect little angels. In heated debates sometimes people tell each other to shut up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-06-12 21:23 > the conduct in the video is not professional and shouldn't be accepted in something purporting to be a professional collaboration. ... It doesn't matter who you are, whether thick or thin skinned, you should be able to communicate civilly or you should refrain from attempting to communicate entirely. 100% agree. What sort of enforcement would you like to see happen? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rain5 · 2018-06-12 21:48 > You're saying he should go I am not saying that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:09 So it's okay to shout down at Theo because he is kind of a dick, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:10 So it's cool to be a dick to Theo, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:12 If Theo identifies as a 15 yr old girl, then yes, shout her down, because that is cool. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:13 So shouting down Theo is cool. Got it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:13 I bet you think that communisim hasn't been tried yet either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:14 Isn't that the whole point of a CoC? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SolomonKull · 2018-06-13 02:45 There has never been a communist nation-state. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:46 [I'm doing my part](https://i.imgur.com/deJcON6.png), are you? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 02:47 See and there we go. Oh yeah and hi from Communist China. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Garbotronto · 2018-06-13 04:29 I thought FBSD was no longer a meritocracy. I thought this was the toxic behaviour the CoC was meant to eliminate. Let's face it, you're a bunch of hypocrites and I will not fund this shit anymore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Garbotronto · 2018-06-13 04:31 The rules don't count when you're on the CoC committee. FreeBSD is now a joke. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Garbotronto · 2018-06-13 04:33 Sound like you're minimizing the situation and playing favorites to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- qci · 2018-06-13 05:08 I didn't say it's cool. I said I understand when someone does it. Like I understand that there are people who search for evil intentions in what I write. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-13 05:12 first, I'm not a freebsd person. he was asked to apologize (and did), it was in the response from freebsd. what more do you want? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ddsci · 2018-06-13 07:47 Yeah, FreeBSD fucked up big time there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- slacksd · 2018-06-13 08:37 I am new to the BSD community. I am very excited about various BSD projects \- FreeBSD and OpenBSD both central to that. This outburst is obviously not acceptable \- whether it happened to Theo de Raadt or to someone who might have been more impacted by it. The individual responsible apologized and I'm quite certain they probably feel extremely embarrassed and bad about it; there's really no need for dogpiling. But what is more significant to me is this discussion around FreeBSD's Code of Conduct (CoC). I was thrilled to see the CoC and folks who I've engaged with from the community so far have generally embodied the principles. Let's talk about terms here... verbal abuse is not the same thing as an outburst. The vid clearly shows behavior unbefitting of the environment and something that's not okay; but folks drawing a false equivalency between this and instances of actual abuse / harassment need to cut it out and admit they're trying to undermine the notion of accountability or community conduct standards altogether. FreeBSD's CoC is necessary. They absolutely need to be accountable to it. I do not see this as some egregious hypocrisy; the person responsible issued an apology; Theo hasn't asked for any other action or resolution (as far as I know). Don't equate this very unfortunate event to the kinds of things that the CoC was meant to address. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crest_ · 2018-06-13 08:56 Are you claiming that shouting to be heard alone in a large room without a microphone is wrong, because someone in the room might be intimidated by loud sounds? Speaking loud enough to be heard through the speaker's microphone is considerate to those limited to the streams, because few speakers repeat all questions and in a BoF session lively discussion in encouraged. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- crest_ · 2018-06-13 09:07 No. It is okay to interrupt any speaker (specially in a small BoF session) to call him out on his bullshit. Did you understand what they were talking about and which deliberate and wrong statements by the speaker caused the initial "STOP!" shout about a quarter of an hour into the session? The way the interrupting persons lost control over themselves was rude and embarrassing. As far I can tell from the low quality video I saw of the incident there was nothing more to it and it didn't amount to abuse. I have since been told by people who attended the event that the conflict was amicably resolved after the talk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-13 09:09 Thanks for doing this. It takes a lot to come out and publicly apologize, something I didn't expect to happen. I can't help but feel that people have focused on you rather than the real issue, which is the way the CoC was handled here, and for my part in that I'm sorry for any stress my actions caused you. Wrt to /u/rain5's response, it may be helpful to use some sort of anonymised bug tracker for tracking CoC reports. It'd provide an evidential record, and read/comment access could be granted to a reporter so they can see what's happened before, rather than having an email that comes across as a fobbing off. That would also allow the reporter to engage in the process of supporting CoC improvement. To be clear, I wouldn't have done anything if the response I received didn't come across as defensive and blame-shifting. I understand that it takes time to change culture, and it's a hard thing to overcome. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 09:11 Sounds like you need a CoC to govern your peeps better, espeically as they are creating a hostile environment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- privategavin · 2018-06-13 09:29 lol ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsdimp · 2018-06-13 14:18 The CoC was handled fine here. The CoC is designed to be evaluated contextually. In this context, I didn't abuse Theo, Theo didn't abuse me. We had a heated technical argument revolving around the proper way to work with Intel on security matters. We got through it and past it. I had a moment where my internal dialog was vocalized in a fit of frustration. Was it rude and unprofessional? Yes. But from a CoC point of view, there's no violation. The CoC is there as a backstop to when normal interaction breaks down, when people don't take personal responsibility. Was I mean and rude, you bet. It's close to the line, but I don't think it was over the line because context matters. That's a commonly misunderstood part of the CoC: people think it prohibits this big long list of things, and that's not the intent at all. That would create a crazy situation. Now, had I raised my at someone and they had shut up, or left the stage or had otherwise changed their behavior, that would be different. Also, this was a BOF where Theo specifically requested feedback. He didn't like my feedback, and said many provocative things, and that has to be evaluated as well. The whole context matters. None of the reporters asked for a remedy. Let's assume that this was a violation, what's the proper remedy? If you can't articulate a remedy, then it's hard to do anything. Should the CoC tell me I was naughty? Would that have been any better? People would be complaining that I got a slap on the wrist. Would it have made sense to publicly rebuke me? People would say the same thing. Would it make sense to have them force me to apologize? That would make the apology meaningless. This is a case where the right answer is to leave it to the individual responsibility to do the right thing. There are real and grave privacy concerns for providing the full record. There could be a hidden context that they reveal. There have been real abuse cases where the people knew each other and had an intimate history that wasn't widely known. Allowing a third party that witnessed a fight to have that sort of information wouldn't be a good thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-13 14:43 > None of the reporters asked for a remedy. 1 - it's not the job of the reporter to tell the conduct review team what should be done, that's down to the conduct review team to decide. 2 - I don't know if you had access to my emails but that's not a fair statement. In my initial email, I said: "I will leave it to the team to determine what action should be taken, but action needs to be taken" I appreciate that's not a clear cut "You must specifically take this action", but it is seeking resolution. In my followup email to Juli after hearing about the decision, I said, "Your action, while minimal is probably at the lower end of appropriate (given the way this is going public, a public apology is probably better in terms of a signal to other FreeBSD team members to behave reasonably in public spaces)" In the case of at least one reporter they were told that it's already been looked at and there's no violation, and there's no action taken. Whereas the same person told me that the conduct team took action, implying that there may (or may not) have been a violation in the eyes of the team. > There are real and grave privacy concerns for providing the full record. You're right, which is why I suggested anonymized data, but I think you raised good points here and you're absolutely right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsdimp · 2018-06-13 15:26 So what other actions could the board have taken that (a) would have been effective and (b) wouldn't have created a situation where the board was a draconian overload, chilling all developer interaction? I'm having trouble seeing any real remedy here that would be proportionate to the actions, viewed in context, and fair to all parties. The CoC is there to give people guidance to be their better selves, not some draconian cudgel to badger people with. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- monkeynator · 2018-06-13 16:03 Theo has always been tongue\-in\-cheek to FreeBSD and Linux, only thing that has changed is that he's stopped talking about Linux. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- techsnapp · 2018-06-13 16:43 >We had a heated technical argument So the technical argument is regarding freebsd vs. the freebsd foundation? That's when you seemed to grow the most frustrated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- techsnapp · 2018-06-13 16:57 > But to be honest, two people shouting at each other in a heated discussion is not what I would call nasty behaviour. COC says: * Sustained disruption of discussion. The fact that a) a COC report was made b) an apology happened c) this post happened proves there has been sustained disruption of non\-coc/technical discussions taking place. bsdimp needed to take time to send an apology email, follow up posting in in thread and the one on /r/openbsd. Again, that's sustained long enough. If no one had this disruption, this discussion would not exist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-13 17:11 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 17:23 Of course not, clearly the CCP isn't any 'true scottsman' communist either. Now barring the hundreds of millions that perrished under communisim, tell me how it'll work this time(tm) and what country you plan to overthrow and murder the populace so I won't be there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-13 17:28 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-13 17:33 Oh good, because clearly communists always have to strawman how it's never been tried yet, but somehow has killed more people since the black plague. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- techsnapp · 2018-06-13 17:56 >Are you claiming that shouting to be heard alone in a large room without a microphone is wrong, because someone in the room might be intimidated by loud sounds? According to the COC, that's a disruption. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-06-13 18:06 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- thatstevelord · 2018-06-13 18:29 If you're interested in having a serious discussion about that, I'm happy to do so over email. I don't know if this is the first report or not, but I think there are ways the board could improve communication and I'm happy to help where I can. Do you want to continue this over email? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsdimp · 2018-06-13 19:03 No, the technical argument is how best to work with Intel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsdimp · 2018-06-13 19:16 I am interested in having a serious one. imp@bsdimp.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsdimp · 2018-06-14 01:29 I was not asked to apologize. I did so on my own. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- euphraties247 · 2018-06-14 13:12 > /u/bsdimp is the current top all time committer I thought meritocracy was a bad thing, and something to be discouraged? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Elm-tree-time · 2018-06-23 00:41 >I will not fund this shit anymore You’ve been posting that for 4 months. How about you move on? Nobody cared back then what you think and nobody cares now.