FreeBSD has a politics problem [lists.freebsd.org] reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bsd_lore · 2018-03-04 09:27 I am a very loyal BSD's user, but I feel this post would need to be kept, at least here, on the more neutral ground of /r/bsd. Please, moderators, do not remove it. Censorship never helped get better. We all love BSDs, I love FreeBSD above all. We all want to overcome this moment, for brighter tomorrows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- GFandango · 2018-03-04 09:59 haha what a fucking dumpster fire .. FreeBSD fucking joke ---------------------------------------------------------------------- HE1SENZERG · 2018-03-04 15:28 FreeBSD is still a great OS. Identity politics is what will run the project into the ground. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Xerxero · 2018-03-04 15:43 They even name you by name. How awesome is that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-04 17:14 OP torn to shreds: https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd- advocacy/2018-March/004691.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-04 18:07 That response makes at least one erronous claim in its takedown: >> from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version, >> which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist, > This claim is factually erroneous. The Geek Feminism example anti-harassment policy simply makes no such claim. That statement is [contradicted](https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comm ents/7xapx2/freebsds_new_geek_feminismbased_code_of_conduct/du7200b/?s t=jed3ukpc&sh=4a8ed0b1), or at least shown to be mere nitpicking, by one of the FreeBSD CoC's authors: > I was on the committee which wrote this. Yes, we took bits from Geek Feminism -- but I excised the bits which I thought were nutty (like the rant about how sexism against men doesn't exist). So it's pretty clear that does says "sexism against men doesn't exist," if it doesn't say precisely that "racism against whites doesn't exist," that's just a nitpick. The later statement is very closely related in tone, sentiment, and content to the former, and they usually travel together. edit: turns out the takedown is factually wrong on this point, not just nipicking. See below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5ilver · 2018-03-04 18:44 http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy The word white doesn't even appear on the page. Geek Feminism wrote some things they liked, and they took the bits they liked. They didn't wholesale copy the whole ideology right out to the fringes! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dx87 · 2018-03-04 19:04 OP might have been talking about this rule: >Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion. Since the new CoC only applies to comments that "reinforce systemic oppression", it's not really a stretch to say that making racist comments against white people is okay since they aren't victims of "systemic oppression". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 02:01 > The word white doesn't even appear on the page. It doesn't need to. I actually dug around, and it turns out *the OP is correct* (but paraphrased rather than quoted) and the takedown you linked is factually wrong. Let's review: >> from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version, >> which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist, > This claim is factually erroneous. The Geek Feminism example anti-harassment policy simply makes no such claim. Here's what the Geek Feminism wiki says in [its CoC](https://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/): > Reverse’ -isms, including ‘**reverse racism**,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’ (because these things **don’t exist**) [emphasis mine] > Geek Feminism wrote some things they liked, and they took the bits they liked. That may be true, but where they copied from sets the ideological context of the CoC, and also signals political affinity, which is important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5ilver · 2018-03-05 02:23 > It doesn't need to. lol alright man, have fun. The thing referenced and linked is irrelevant. You be you! Have a good day. /s ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 02:55 It doesn't need to because there's are different ways of stating the same concept besides direct quotation. Are you unfamiliar with this concept? Apparently so. Just to make it *really easy* for you, I'll walk you through it: Ask yourself, what's "[reverse racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism)?" The answer is, racism against a majority group. What would that be in the context of the US? Whites. So what are you saying when you say "reverse racism" doesn't exist? In a US context you're saying racism against whites doesn't exist. We've now transformed the language of the Geek Feminism CoC into the language used by the OP. QED. I really, really, genuinely hope that's it's now clear to you that ctrl-F is not a valid test for semantic equivalence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WikiTextBot · 2018-03-05 02:55 **Reverse racism** The concept of reverse racism or reverse discrimination has been used, especially in the United States, to describe the perceived denial of rights and privileges to members of dominant groups in order to benefit racial and ethnic minorities. The term has also been used to characterize various expressions of hostility or indifference toward white people by members of minority groups. Claims of reverse racism tend to ignore disparities in the exercise of power and authority that scholars argue constitute an essential component of racism. In this view, isolated examples of favoring disadvantaged people over more privileged ones cannot constitute actual racism. *** ^[ [^PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=kittens_from_space) ^| [^Exclude ^me](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiTextBot&me ssage=Excludeme&subject=Excludeme) ^| [^Exclude ^from ^subreddit](https://np.reddit.com/r/BSD/about/banned) ^| [^FAQ ^/ ^Information](https://np.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/index) ^| [^Source](https://github.com/kittenswolf/WikiTextBot) ^| [^Donate](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/donate) ^] ^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.28 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5ilver · 2018-03-05 03:12 Anything is going to look like crap if you must add your emotional baggage to it. Read what it says. QED. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 04:45 Interesting how you created your account solely to comment on FreeBSD CoC stuff. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 05:29 How so? It is notably weird for such an aspersion to come from an account that's just a month old, like yours. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 05:36 Meh. Low effort troll. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 05:39 > It is notably weird for such an aspersion to come from an account that's just a month old Not really. I'm a long time reddit user who has "quit" many times. This account will probably be deleted in a few months. On the other hand your account is legit a single issue account. Given the attention that the CoC issue has [outside](https://www.reddit.com/ r/KotakuInAction/comments/7xg4je/freebsd_project_adopts_a_new_inclusiv e_code_of/) [the BSD](https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/7xhx4k/r freebsd_nazis_fight_valiant_social_justice/) [world](https://www.reddi t.com/r/sjwhate/comments/815874/freebsd_internal_sjw_debate/), it's legit to wonder if accounts like your originate from outside the BSD community ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 06:01 If you must know, I've been using FreeBSD since 1998 when I used it to build a router/gateway for my dialup connection. While I'm no longer a big reddit user, I practice pretty rigorous account hygiene to contain any leaks of personal information that may happen. The reason for that is that the internet is full of unhinged weirdos of all types, and short of mental health exams as a condition of internet access, nothing's going to change that. Anyway, a reddit account's history or lack of it is utterly meaningless in almost all cases, unless you wish to engage fallacious rhetoric. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-03-05 06:41 > it's not really a stretch to say that making racist comments against white people is okay since they aren't victims of "systemic oppression". [3rd par., 1st sentence](https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of- conduct.html): > This document is not an exhaustive list of things that you should not do. If you think you are being abused with racist comments because you are white, *please* take it up with conduct@. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BumpitySnook · 2018-03-05 06:44 Racism is just racism. There's no such thing as "reverse" racism because that implies there is a "correct" direction for (to simplify) one group to harm/disparage another. If someone is discriminating against you because you are white, that is *not* "reverse racism" — it's just racism. And if that is the case, *please contact conduct@ about it*. The goal is that abuse is not welcome, and there is an avenue for people who feel like they are being harassed to seek remediation. Regardless of the color of your skin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 14:05 You do understand that brigading is thing on reddit though right? That brigaders do exactly what it appears that you are doing, right? Most large subreddits explicitly forbid this sort of thing, and do so by not allowing new accounts to comment on controversial topics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 15:15 If that's actually case, then it's another instance of *bad design*, and another problem with the CoC as written. It's super careful to enumerate all kinds things, but very unclear in some cases if "racist comments against group X" are OK or not. At the minimum that implies that such racist conduct is OK, or at least more OK that other kinds. They, frankly, should drop the ideological shibboleths like "systematic oppression" language and just enumerate the categories, as is typical and conventional. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 15:20 Why can't the CoC be that clear? This is the problem with used such an ideological source as "Geek Feminism" as a starting point. Much of the CoC's language was written under its ideological context, and it's unclear how much of that should be carried over or not in its interpretation. Also that ideological context influences the CoC's language in more subtle ways that can't be readily excised by just striking terms, so even with the edits made the problem still remains. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherMan · 2018-03-05 17:14 You mean except it's the ones you're contacting with that that is in charge of the very abuse being reported as in the now no longer private list. In this whole thing, there is only a few people that have resorted to sexism and racism... Several of them from the very team responsible for handling the cases... And you actually expect anyone to have any faith in that they would take such reports even remotely serious then? They've clearly shown themselves that they don't consider it to be a violation. if they did, they obviously wouldn't be using such language. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherMan · 2018-03-05 17:21 That's not what brigading is no... I suggest you actually read Reddit's definition of brigading https://www.reddit.com/r/modnews/comm ents/5y33op/updating_you_on_modtools_and_community_dialogue/demxqz8/ which includes things like "This does not include organic and non targeted cross-community participation or simple discussion of other communities. Simply linking to a post where people follow and participate on isn't always considered to be interference." So no. Even he they were linked here specifically from another community. That's not brigading. It's only brigading if that link was made for the purpose of interfering with the community, which it's very clear that they are not doing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 19:59 Thanks for mansplaining Etherman! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EtherMan · 2018-03-05 20:06 And thus you prove the opposers right... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 21:15 1. The response of desperately searching for ad hominems in order to justify disregarding someone *you wish to perceive* as an outsider is not a good look. 2. If you want a cloistered community, perhaps you should look elsewhere than to a *public* subreddit? Complaints of brigading are always hard to take seriously, given that Reddit, at a very fundamental level, is structurally designed to have open, non- exclusive communities. 3. Again, complaints like these are rich coming from a month-old account. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 21:20 At this point, it's pretty clear you're the one who's being disruptive, despite your attempt at account-policing above. Drive by snark is not a positive contribution to any discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 22:30 > complaints like these are rich coming from a month-old account This complaint is rich coming from a 19 day old account that has only been used to comment on FreeBSD CoC posts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 22:47 lol, really? You must have forgotten that you were the one that started this by trying to police accounts based on age and other random ad hominem conditions, which you made up and bizarrely seem to think are pertinent. It's even richer for you to try to paint me as a hypocrite solely for pointing out that you are one for also failing the kinds of criteria you were trying to apply to me. Anyway, I think we're done. You continue to respond, but your responses are uncomprehending. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 22:50 > started this by trying to police accounts https://www.reddit.com/r/BSD/comments/81wqvl/freebsd_has_a_politics_pr oblem_listsfreebsdorg/dv76ejq/ OK Given the amount of offence that you've taken from all of this I believe that maybe I was on to something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- freebsd_user · 2018-03-05 22:56 🙄 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wannabehax0r · 2018-03-05 23:49 🧐 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-03-07 21:12 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dlyund · 2018-03-08 16:52 > certain protected classes of people should not be criticised. That includes FreeBSD Core members, apparently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dlyund · 2018-03-08 16:54 > The FreeBSD Foundation's choice to pay an outside person (with donations from the users) to work on the Code of Conduct's enforcement. Said person identifies as a feminist That's the last penny they'll get from me. Such a shame... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dlyund · 2018-03-08 17:03 > Please do not leak internal, private project emails. > > Conrad Da, Comrade... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2018-03-09 08:29 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Trick_Algae5810 · 2023-06-26 14:21 I feel like Linux is probably a lot worse.