What is BSD's niche? What is it most used for? What is it best at? reddit / BSD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-10 21:45 Coming from the Microsoft and Linux side of things I'm interested in how BSD users distinguish their favorite operating system from other OSes. What is BSD best at in your opinion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mioelnir · 2015-09-10 22:28 It's a tool. You build things on top of it. I might prefer a screwdriver with a blue handle, you maybe one with yellow. They're still both only tools. They fasten screws. So, maybe BSD is best at being BSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-10 22:53 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-10 23:08 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phliver · 2015-09-10 23:09 I know a lot of people like the native ZFS support and will use a BSD for file servers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mioelnir · 2015-09-10 23:17 Claiming `$foo` is best at `$bar` as a general statement without any use case context does not help anybody either, it might in fact hurt someone by being misleading information. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-10 23:19 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rhabarba · 2015-09-10 23:51 I don't understand why everything has to have a "niche". I use BSD because it does what I, personally, want to use it for (several server and desktop tasks). Is that a "niche"? I switched from Linux servers to BSD servers because they are more rock-solid and offer a stable API/ABI as well as some innovations which Linux is struggling to adapt properly (jails vs. Docker, anyone?). More details would be easier to answer if we knew what you are looking for. FreeBSD and its descendants (PC-BSD, GhostBSD, ...) feature the valuable ZFS file system which is probably the best available storage fs, DragonFly BSD has HAMMER (great for really big disks) and is a performance *monster*, OpenBSD is one of the best "it just works" desktop and server systems I've seen in my life, NetBSD runs on your preferred ARM-or-so board (the perfect Raspbian replacement IMO). And this is without the commercial BSDs and Unices (AIX, HP-UX, ...). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- pr1ntf · 2015-09-10 23:54 **FreeBSD:** *The power to serve* Even though, for me personally, FreeBSD is also a great workstation for the work that I do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tireseas · 2015-09-11 01:47 The first thing you need to realize is that "BSD" isn't a catch all term and that there hasn't been a single canonical BSD in forever. Each of the major BSDs is very much it's own OS with it's own codebase and it's own strengths and weaknesses. OpenBSD focuses on code correctness and security in it's base system, NetBSD is all about the portability, FreeBSD focuses mostly on having the best performance for x86 derived systems, and DragonflyBSD is a fork of the 4.x series of FreeBSD that focused on, among other things, a different approach to multithreading and a seriously sexy new filesystem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- fullwedgewhale · 2015-09-11 03:34 This is a FreeBSD specific answer, although much of it applies to other BSDs: It's not a niche operating system like maybe an RTOS or a high security exokernel. It's a general purpose, Unix like operating system. That being said, it does have particular strengths and weaknesses. The strengths of FreeBSD are, in my opinion, huge. That's ZFS, Jails, DTrace, and great networking. ZFS is a next generation filesystem and probably the best one on the market. Unlike docker, Jails were developed with security in mind, and are a lighter weight alternative to VMware style virtualization. DTrace is kind of unique in the way it allows you to inspect a running program on a running kernel. The networking is fantastic. When you combine these you get a great server for content (ZFS + Networking). You can do things like host applications in Jails with the ability to snapshot the file system on which the Jail runs (ZFS + Jails). You can isolate applications that you think may have security issues (Jails + Networking). The weaknesses are largely mitigated by the ports system. Not every open source project will compile without issue if you checked it out of their repository and tried to build. Volunteers patch these open source projects so they will build on BSD. But you may still run into issues if your particular project isn't in the ports tree. If you go to a large number of closed source software vendors, they will not have a FreeBSD version. If you depend on something like the Oracle database, that may require Linux. You might be able to run them on FreeBSD, because FreeBSD does offer the ability to run Linux binaries. But if you have a lot of package software that requires a supported configuration (probably something like specific versions of RHEL or Suse Linux) then it might not work for you. FreeBSD (although PC-BSD is better at this) also doesn't have as strong a desktop story as Linux. That being said, I run XFCE on FreeBSD and it's great. I also run Sublime Text (a Linux application) for my code editing. If you are building or running applications written in languages like Java, Python, Ruby, C/C++, or PHP, etc. that use back-end storage such as Postgres, MySQL, MariaDB, Mongo, etc, then Linux or a BSD should both work great. With FreeBSD you'd get ZFS, Jails, DTrace, etc. With OpenBSD you get industry leading security. OpenBSD, for example, is creating a security focused HTTP proxy server called httpd. It's focus on security make it a good choice for creating proxies/load balancers for your application running on FreeBSD. If you are building an appliance or creating a service you might have concerns about GPL licensing. BSD licensing allows you to build what you need to and you don't have to release the source code modifications. You are encouraged to do so, and if you up stream your changes you will make your life easier, but you don't have to disclose your secret sauce. And I also have to give the community a solid plug. The BSDNow podcast is awesome. My personal experience is that there's less condescension toward new users in the BSD community. Linux is great and I use various distros for work (like CentOS and Ubuntu Server) and that's usually driven by customer needs, but I have to say I'd rather be running a version of BSD. And I totally forgot another thing: Linux and FreeBSD have different philosophies. Linux is really just a kernel with a lot support from GNU for a lot of the Unix style utilities. BSD is different. There's a base system that includes all the basic Unix style utilities. It's a little more of an integrated whole than a bunch of packages together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- guffcakes · 2015-09-11 07:45 I manage a fair bit of kit across the microsoft and linux side of things. BSD is where my heart is and always has been since I used FreeBSD 2 in the distant past. BSD (this applies to all varieties) is best at: * sensible engineering and design decisions. * just working. * keeping relatively politics free. * having a professional community. * amazing signal to noise ratio. * good documentation. * no surprises. * being trustworthy. * consistent single world view. * relative simplicity. I use OpenBSD now and only due to the relentless focus on improvement, quality and the simple fact is that in 25 years of professional experience, its the only think that is transparent and friction free. I will add that I still use windows on the desktop out of convenience however. I only use unixes on the server side of things. Windows server ranks a close second; it also just works and has a number of great features for business use like AD,GPO, WSUS etc. I find Linux (CentOS) pretty good, until something odd goes wrong then its a shitfest of finger pointing and pain. Ubuntu let me down badly once after blowing a RAID array so I can no longer trust their QA. All things should be judged during times of trouble. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-11 08:44 Our niche is not caring about niches or about popularity. We want our systems to work, and to work well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rhabarba · 2015-09-11 10:49 Actually, there was a single canonical BSD in the 70s and 80s. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-11 11:02 "in forever" is a trendy way to say "since the 80s" apparently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-11 11:03 *BSD doesn't have native ZFS. FreeBSD does. But that is NOT *BSD. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rhabarba · 2015-09-11 11:17 Also, it seems to be trendy to have a Puffy flair. I need a new system. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-11 12:46 I'm one of the Puffers. Couldn't tell you about the others, though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BitingChaos · 2015-09-11 13:55 I found that it had the best blend of a Windows-friendly Samba / ZFS / ACL implementation, *and* it can run our Linux software. Nothing else I tested came as close or worked as well as FreeBSD did. It may not have the community support of Windows or Linux, but it worked for us better than both of those. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gthank · 2015-09-11 14:25 To be fair, most of that decade is 30 years in the past now :-( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gaggra · 2015-09-11 16:11 I think asking about a "niche" is perfectly reasonable, but maybe the meaning of such a question is non-obvious. Every piece of software needs some sort of "niche" - some way in which it is better than everything else. Otherwise, why bother using it in the first place, if it has no advantage over anything else? FBSD has the ZFS/Jails niche, OBSD has the pf/security niche, DFBSD has the Hammer/performance niche, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rhabarba · 2015-09-11 16:20 > OBSD has the pf/security niche Actually, NetBSD has the same *niche* (although some might argue that `npf` is even better). Now what? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-11 16:22 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mini_market · 2015-09-11 17:04 As a recent (Free)BSD convert I find it refreshingly consistent and well engineered. It's the cathedral approach to building an OS, quite different from the bazaar in Linux. What pulled me in, eventually, was the community. It's less fractured than Linux. Any differences are backed by well thought reasons. Shout out to BSD Now, too, for keeping my enthusiasm alive. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-11 17:30 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gaggra · 2015-09-11 17:57 Now what? Nothing. The issue isn't absolute, no single project has to "own" a given niche. It's just one way of describing why people pick certain systems. "...how BSD users distinguish their favorite operating system from other OSes..." seemed like a fairly plain explanation of intent by the OP. What is the problem? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marmulak · 2015-09-11 18:09 It's best used as a computer operating system. It's really good at running programs. It can run many programs for a long time, which is why I use it. It communicates with the Internet and offers many facilities to empower you to get the most out of your machine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rhabarba · 2015-09-11 18:20 I just wanted to make clear that the "niches" are rather blurry here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-11 23:34 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-13 16:26 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-13 16:37 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-13 19:21 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-09-13 20:37 [removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- perciva · 2015-09-13 21:29 Subthread deleted here. The words "keeping relatively politics free" are not an invitation to attack individuals whom you consider to be politically active. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- smiley_face1 · 2015-09-13 23:27 It was such a brutal "attack" as well. More like a discussion you want to avoid tbh. Also there is no question in regards to "political activity" it's a fact that nobody denies, you can't hide your reasoning behind that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mycall · 2015-09-14 04:27 You think there will ever be a calling for a grand unification of the modern BSDs? The one to rule them all? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-14 08:44 FreeBSD itself (as well as the other *BSD projects) generally avoid non-technical political activity. Because one or more members of a community _also_ do political things, does not make the community a political thing. The deleted post was specifically trying to make a problem, when the problem is not with that person _as part of FreeBSD_. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-14 08:53 No. The projects have different enough goals for this to not make a whole lot of sense. Additionally, the kernels have diverged quite significantly in the last 20 years. Even porting network card drivers is a bit of a challenge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mycall · 2015-09-14 14:37 It just smells like a lack of abstraction, but that's just the coder in me talking and reality is often quite different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-14 15:11 The abstraction layers are completely different. The projects have made their own, and they have their good sides and bad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tireseas · 2015-09-14 15:19 It's even less likely than the grand unification of the Linux based OSes and that's already a borderline nonsensical pipedream. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mycall · 2015-09-14 15:49 Its a shame. So much duplicated code. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tireseas · 2015-09-14 16:01 Total nonissue really. Open source working as expected and intended. Anyone can take the code and modify it to suit their needs as they see fit. It's arguably the single most important feature of the BSD style licenses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- argv7 · 2015-09-14 22:59 >the problem is not with that person as part of FreeBSD Maybe tiny bits in the past of Randis involvement with FreeBSD had nothing to do with her political/personal beliefs but EVERY time I see her having anything to do with FreeBSD(mostly participation in the community) now does. It's not like it's something you have to look deep into to see, simply viewing her comment history on Reddit and anything to do with FreeBSD is just political BS. The FreeBSD community needs to learn that not every crazy asshole comes with a neon sign, I don't even know what to say about you phessler simply looking into reddits post history and Randis twitter posts discredits many things you say about your supposed long time friend yet you're still here shilling. I guess you can add another check to your "Times defended Randi" board. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-09-15 13:02 >I guess you can add another check to your "Times defended Randi" board. I don't have one of those. Can I use yours? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gorone23 · 2015-09-15 14:52 So as you can all see, phessler is as much of a snake in the grass as his friend Randi. Since he cannot refute my points(which would show he is blatantly lying) he has resorted to... whatever you would call that response. Randi should be banned from this sub and not allowed at BSD conferences, she is a fearmonger and profits off of fooling people into believing that non-existent problems do not only exist but are in fact rampant(though you would be hard pressed to see them). She makes over 3k at least a month on Patreon for "Creating Online Activism and Open Source Anti-Harassment Tools" which means the 1 tool she has which is seldom changed. And all the tool does is block people who don't politically align with her and add them to a blacklist, think republicans making a tool to add democrats to a blacklist so you cannot see them on twitter. Think of her as red, if you look at her posts on any website you will see evidence of her attacking people, bullying them and slandering them because she thinks they might be blue. She is the exact opposite of an "anti-harassment advocate" and also does the exact opposite of "preventing online abuse" she harasses everyone who disagrees with her and abuses soft-headed people such as phessler into giving her 3k dollars a month to do it. She even fucking speaks at conferences like BSDcan about bullying and harassment, it's a fucking joke. She isn't a moderate fighting the far left/right she is on one side fighting another side, but she hides behind lies you spinless cucks eat right up so you'll go as far to let her shill her politics even at fucking BSD conferences. phessler would go as far to say that the unrelated political shilling at a BSD conference was the best talk of the whole conference: "Last stage of returning from #bsdcan. Watching Randi Harper's (@freebsdgirl) talk about harassment. Best of the conf." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-10-07 19:20 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-10-08 06:41 I think you should go look up some history of both OpenBSD and BSD in general. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-10-08 15:45 [deleted] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- phessler · 2015-10-08 18:40 I answered your question, you questioned my answer, and I told you to go look it up because it has historical context. "we don't care" is the rallying cry of many *BSD-ers. Go run Linux if you want, we still don't care. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [deleted] · 2015-10-08 20:44 [deleted]