debugger for windows, fully featured (crowdfunding) lazarus / 8-Other ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-09 12:06 Who wants to have a user-friendly Lazarus debugger for windows, please welcome to support developing with money. Destination: - integrated to Lazarus IDE (starting from ver 1.8.) - with full sources (fpc) - under free license (no MIT, no GPL, just free for any use) - work under Windows 2000 - Windows 10 (any bitness) - support 32-bit and 64-bit code - user experience: better than in Delphi https://www.patreon.com/LazarusDebugger ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JuhaManninen · 2017-12-09 15:41 Do you know the existing fpdebug project? It works somehow but should be improved. You could still collect money for developing it, the license does not prevent such things. Why does the title say: "debugger for windows"? Lazarus is a cross-platform system, its debugger must be cross- platform, too. How is the success of your project measured? I guess it is important for the people who donate. Is there a deadline for a finished version? What features must be there to qualify as "finished"? Quote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 01:06:09 pm- under free license (no MIT, no GPL, just free for any use) What does this "free license" mean? Can somebody turn the code into closed source and claim copyright over it for himself? (L)GPL, MIT, Mozilla and such FOSS licenses have put lots of effort to ensure that source code remains available also in the future. At the same time they are very free and liberal. For example library code using LGPL with linking exception can be used in any commercial SW. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- balazsszekely · 2017-12-09 16:25 @Nick Good luck with your project, however after I read the description from the Patreon page I'm very skeptical: QuoteI'll need a $50000 for all. When I reach $3000, I'll start to work. First results will be in a couple of weeks after this point will be reached.Sounds fishy to me. It should be the other way around. Show some work then start to collect money. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2017-12-09 16:39 Yup. See https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?topic=38788.0 in which some very esteemed and proven knowledgeable people are mentioned. A proof of concept is not something I would pay towards. It needs *at least* to be as good as fpdebug in its current state, which is not abandoned but goes very slowly when things get rough. I doubt you fall in that category of knowledgeable people, but prove me wrong ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-09 18:12 Quote from: JuhaManninen on December 09, 2017, 04:41:42 pmDo you know the existing fpdebug project? It works somehow but should be improved. You could still collect money for developing it, the license does not prevent such things. It's not my story. Quote from: JuhaManninen on December 09, 2017, 04:41:42 pmWhy does the title say: "debugger for windows"? Lazarus is a cross-platform system, its debugger must be cross- platform, too. I will implement only for win32 and win64 for now. Quote from: JuhaManninen on December 09, 2017, 04:41:42 pmHow is the success of your project measured? I guess it is important for the people who donate. Is there a deadline for a finished version? What features must be there to qualify as "finished"? Succes is succes in good terms. I want to develop professional usable debugger, not a toy. Quote from: JuhaManninen on December 09, 2017, 04:41:42 pmQuote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 01:06:09 pm- under free license (no MIT, no GPL, just free for any use) What does this "free license" mean? Can somebody turn the code into closed source and claim copyright over it for himself? (L)GPL, MIT, Mozilla and such FOSS licenses have put lots of effort to ensure that source code remains available also in the future. At the same time they are very free and liberal. For example library code using LGPL with linking exception can be used in any commercial SW. It will be "Public domain". See license for sqlite, for example: http://sqlite.org/copyright.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-09 18:22 Quote from: GetMem on December 09, 2017, 05:25:49 pmShow some work then start to collect money. I can create debugger on my conditions. Your way does not fit to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- balazsszekely · 2017-12-09 18:45 QuoteI can create debugger on my conditions. Your way does not fit to me.Ok @Nick. Personally I think you're a troll. A big one, even bigger then the pink president. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-09 18:59 Quote from: GetMem on December 09, 2017, 07:45:56 pmQuoteI can create debugger on my conditions. Your way does not fit to me.Ok @Nick. Personally I think you're a troll. A big one, even bigger then the pink president. Not a troll. I just want normal debugger for Lazarus and find ways to get it. I can invest my time if community invests money. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JuhaManninen · 2017-12-09 19:07 Quote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 07:12:36 pmSucces is succes in good terms. I want to develop professional usable debugger, not a toy. Sounds good. You promised a user experience better than in Delphi but when will it happen? In a year? 2 years? 10 years? 100 years? The people who pay you $50000 may want something measurable for their investment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-09 19:37 Quote from: JuhaManninen on December 09, 2017, 08:07:55 pmQuote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 07:12:36 pmSucces is succes in good terms. I want to develop professional usable debugger, not a toy. Sounds good. You promised a user experience better than in Delphi but when will it happen? In a year? 2 years? 10 years? 100 years? The people who pay you $50000 may want something measurable for their investment. Half year. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2017-12-09 19:50 - Show you can code - Show you can write and evaluate proper tests. (Like fpc) - Show a businessplan: how will you allocate your money? - Which include necessary resources (You WILL need a team...) Oh, that may have been a couple of oversights... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-09 20:11 Quote from: Thaddy on December 09, 2017, 08:50:25 pm- Show you can code - Show you can write and evaluate proper tests. (Like fpc) - Show a businessplan: how will you allocate your money? - Which include necessary resources (You WILL need a team...) Oh, that may have been a couple of oversights... some bugs reported by me: https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=25370 https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=29762 I don't need a team for this. I just need a proper compensation for my time. $50000 is proper for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lainz · 2017-12-09 20:52 Quote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 09:11:46 pmI don't need a team for this. I just need a proper compensation for my time. $50000 is proper for me. I can understand. But no one will give you nothing without a bit more of well written information, goals as suggested. It will not work (not your code, but the people contribution). For example I did a poll for a set of components, if the people want to buy. In your case do a poll if the people for Windows really need a debugger for windows with x features. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- skalogryz · 2017-12-09 21:26 Quote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 01:06:09 pmWho wants to have a user-friendly Lazarus debugger for windows, please welcome to support developing with money. Destination: ... https://www.patreon.com/LazarusDebugger The modern world of individualism. No more team work... well, challenge accepted! https://www.patreon.com/duby ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-10 00:37 Quote from: skalogryz on December 09, 2017, 10:26:24 pmQuote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 01:06:09 pmWho wants to have a user- friendly Lazarus debugger for windows, please welcome to support developing with money. Destination: ... https://www.patreon.com/LazarusDebugger The modern world of individualism. No more team work... well, challenge accepted! https://www.patreon.com/duby Ok. But I don't understand what we will get if we pay There be a good user-friendly debugger (with expression evaluation, function calls)? I want only good debugger, not a toy for patching. If I get it, I will pay. About individualizm... Sometimes it is much better than team work, sometimes not. It depends ---------------------------------------------------------------------- molly · 2017-12-10 01:33 Quote from: Nick on December 10, 2017, 01:37:05 amQuote from: skalogryz on December 09, 2017, 10:26:24 pmQuote from: Nick on December 09, 2017, 01:06:09 pmWho wants to have a user-friendly Lazarus debugger for windows, please welcome to support developing with money. Destination: ... https://www.patreon.com/LazarusDebugger The modern world of individualism. No more team work... well, challenge accepted! https://www.patreon.com/duby Ok. But I don't understand what we will get if we pay The difference there is that in case of skalogryz, the patreon page is meant as encouragement for the developer(s). Development has already started and will continue even without people donating (as can be read). More money simply means more respect for the developer(s). Duby will progress no matter what, while in your case you won't even start before you receive a certain amount of money (although perhaps not intended that smells fishy to me as that is how any scam works). I am aware of skalogryz's work, while i can't seem to remember having seen yours. There is a reason why skalogryz is confident enough to put up a challenge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- skalogryz · 2017-12-10 03:12 Quote from: Nick on December 10, 2017, 01:37:05 amBut I don't understand what we will get if we pay There be a good user-friendly debugger (with expression evaluation, function calls)? Sure. Expression Valuations + Function Calls were my latest development effort (this October). Made it work in command-line debugger for functions like this: Code: Text  [Select][+][-]window.onload = function(){var x1 = document.getElementById("main_content_section"); if (x1) { var x = document.getElementsByClassName("geshi");for (var i = 0; i function Calc(a,b: integer): Integer; cdecl;function Calc2(a,b: integer): integer;Note the difference in calling conventions. and expressions like that: Code: [Select]  1+Calc(i,2)*Calc(3,i) Works with integer types only though. The hardest part is integration with IDE itself. The development is currently on hold, for another bounty. Quote from: Nick on December 10, 2017, 01:37:05 amI want only good debugger, not a toy for patching. Everything is a toy for patching in the software world. (look at recent Apple flows. And that's the company with really deep pockets). I bet your concern is that you want to be sure, that some one else would be able to patch it for you ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-10 09:43 Quote from: molly on December 10, 2017, 02:33:22 amThere is a reason why skalogryz is confident enough to put up a challenge I have no objection. But I want good debugging experience. It will be good? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick · 2017-12-10 09:53 Quote from: skalogryz on December 10, 2017, 04:12:07 amEverything is a toy for patching in the software world. I don't have fun with that: https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=29762 There was >40 of broken windows api functions and headers. It was bad experience, to patch what must just work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- skalogryz · 2017-12-10 14:21 Quote from: Nick on December 10, 2017, 10:53:56 amI don't have fun with that: https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=29762 There was >40 of broken windows api functions and headers. It was bad experience, to patch what must just work. It's not a big issue in my view. If you know what the right declarations are - simply create a stand- alone unit with the proper version and use it. (no need to recompile rtl or anything) I run into missing declarations pretty often. Rarely do much fuss about it. (just create my own declaration and use it) Sharing the findings is definitely a sign of a responsible community member I can argue about "must just work". The headers were created back in the days of win9x, where unicode versions didn't exist. Headers were "just working" at that time. There's no dedicated person in FPC team to keep headers up to date with MS releases So as time went by, headers became outdated. One can blame Microsoft for not providing up-to-date Pascal versions of their WinAPI. The same is true for any other 3d party library. OpenGL is an example. The new APIs are being added by the developers patches, rather than someone from the core team.