I give up. No IDEs can satisfy me. lazarus / 8-Other ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yuta · 2024-08-01 09:48 Lazarus IDE is powerful, but it always has an outdated feeling to me. There are people working on Pascal / Free Pascal language plugins on modern IDEs like Jetbrain IDEs or Visual Studio Code, but they are all not perfect. There are plugins to modernize Lazarus like AnchorDocking or IDE Scout etc., but they are also not perfect. Errors can easily happen and crash the IDE with plugins uncontrollably as well. I can deal with Git with just command lines, but some other IDEs provides better view for things like git blame and git merge internally, I ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward. In the end, with the dying of Pascal language itself, I had barely hope on any significant support on Lazarus would appear on any other IDEs. Lazarus IDE would be the only option relevant. It's sad. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-01 10:02 general, imprecise, vague complaints aren't going to change anything. if you have specific deficiencies to mention and how they can be overcome, that could be useful and, in addition, they might be implemented. Hopefully your next post is more specific. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-01 13:42 Quote from: Yuta on August 01, 2024, 11:48:40 amLazarus IDE is powerful, but it always has an outdated feeling to me. There are people working on Pascal / Free Pascal language plugins on modern IDEs like Jetbrain IDEs or Visual Studio Code, but they are all not perfect. There are plugins to modernize Lazarus like AnchorDocking or IDE Scout etc., but they are also not perfect. Errors can easily happen and crash the IDE with plugins uncontrollably as well. I can deal with Git with just command lines, but some other IDEs provides better view for things like git blame and git merge internally, I ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward. In the end, with the dying of Pascal language itself, I had barely hope on any significant support on Lazarus would appear on any other IDEs. Lazarus IDE would be the only option relevant. It's sad. What is green and lives under a bridge ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-01 14:07 Joanna, if you don't like his opinion either ignore it or produce a coherent argument demonstrating that he's wrong. In short, stop trolling. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-01 14:31 Quote from: MarkMLl on August 01, 2024, 04:07:29 pmJoanna, if you don't like his opinion either ignore it or produce a coherent argument demonstrating that he's wrong. In short, stop trolling. MarkMLl Your reading comprehension skills are excellent! It is quite valiant of you to support someone whose first post on a 19 month old account informs us that Lazarus is useless and pascal is a dying language.. Quote In the end, with the dying of Pascal language itself, I had barely hope on any significant support on Lazarus would appear on any other IDEs. Lazarus IDE would be the only option relevant. It's sad. sounds great! Sign me up!! Cheers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Curt Carpenter · 2024-08-01 15:02 I've been spending some time with Turbo Pascal and its old character- based IDE -- fondly remembered from long ago.  I loved that IDE at the time -- but nothing will help you appreciate the Lazarus IDE more than going back to the tools of a few decades ago.  We have become very spoiled, but perhaps you have to be old to realize it  (And who knows what magic lies ahead as technology gives each of us a programming assistant in a box or something like it.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-01 15:07 Quote from: Joanna on August 01, 2024, 04:31:51 pmYour reading comprehension skills are excellent! It is quite valiant of you to support someone whose first post on a 19 month old account informs us that Lazarus is useless and pascal is a dying language.. All development environments are a matter of taste, and most of us who are familiar with the Lazarus IDE dislike e.g. VS to a more or less vocal extent. But the bottom line is that Pascal, as a language, /is/ dying, and is only kept going by the relative strengths of the IDEs that use it: in particular their integrated form designers and debuggers. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-01 15:52 Quote from: MarkMLl on August 01, 2024, 05:07:02 pm in particular their integrated form designers and debuggers. IMO, it doesn't matter how good a language is, if debugging the code written in that language is time consuming/difficult/cumbersome, the time cost erases any gains the language itself may provide. Until about a year ago, I still used VS because of its debugger.  Now it is somewhat rare that I use it for the debugger, when I do it's because its debugging of assembly code is still the best there is at this time (unfortunately.) As a programming environment, I consider VS a complete disgrace.  When it comes to editing code, I think even the missing link would run away from that thing. It's a binary inquisition, medieval torture (MS should provide free morphine with every VS download.) Of course, I still use it because there are some libraries out there that are only available in C and porting them to Pascal is too much work. Another very significant advantage of the Lazarus/FPC combination is that 64 bit assembly is supported and, while it is very rare that I resort to assembly, when I do it's because coding it in Pascal (or C) has very severe shortcomings.  The lack of 64 bit assembly support in MS C/C++ is what caused me to have another look at FPC (looked at it before that and decided it didn't cut it at that time.)   After determining that 64 bit assembly was supported, the next priority was determining the environment's debugging abilities which at the time were, for practical purposes, GDB centric and basically "adequate" (Lazarus is likely one of best front ends to GDB.) There are good, solid and practical reasons to choose the Lazarus and FPC combination but, it's not the "groovy"/"in" language, therefore it is ignored or worse, criticized/put down, by the "enlightened" (like the OP) who believe they are programmers because they can write python code.  Yeah, like the Pope is an astronaut. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- lainz · 2024-08-01 15:57 I think that was his first and last message, so don't feed the troll and continue; begin .. end; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-01 16:11 For me it’s quite obvious that the objective of the original poster is to discourage people from using Lazarus and pascal. His first post is to inform us that he is “giving up” and to tell anyone foolish enough to heed his advice not to use Lazarus or pascal language. This is a support forum for people who use fpc and Lazarus is it not? There are plenty of other places to post this propaganda besides here. I seriously doubt that he has ever used Lazarus or pascal language at all. I see no evidence of it , being that his first post is a bunch of lies about Lazarus being unusable. I’ve used Lazarus for years along with git and not had any problems that would make me want to give up using it. Who knows how many accounts this person has .. do we really need to keep pretending that every new account is a new person?  @lainz that might be his last post on this account but I doubt that it is his last post . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- silvercoder70 · 2024-08-02 11:28 And COBOL is dying as well. And...? So... I am old enough to remember when things like auto-complete did not exist. When you had to refer to a manual (paper thing) to remind yourself how a function worked. When "forms" were coded by hand. Before Windows. Or when Windows came out you had to write own message handler! Fast forward to today... You are not forced to use an IDE. Except for creating the form itself and setting related properties, you could if you wanted to... use notepad to the connect the event handlers OR pick you editor of choice. A language is only dies when there no one is using or supporting it. There are still positions to be found on spaces like upwork. In some countries Pascal related languages is going OK or better than you might think. And just because a language does not sing as loudly as others... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-02 11:48 Quote from: silvercoder70 on August 02, 2024, 01:28:41 pmAnd COBOL is dying as well. And...? So... I am old enough to remember when things like auto-complete did not exist. When you had to refer to a manual (paper thing) to remind yourself how a function worked. When "forms" were coded by hand. Before Windows. Or when Windows came out you had to write own message handler! Fast forward to today... You are not forced to use an IDE. Except for creating the form itself and setting related properties, you could if you wanted to... use notepad to the connect the event handlers OR pick you editor of choice. A language is only dies when there no one is using or supporting it. There are still positions to be found on spaces like upwork. In some countries Pascal related languages is going OK or better than you might think. And just because a language does not sing as loudly as others... Agreed, but I also agree with at least some of OP's points. For example, I explored the docking interface earlier this year and found it virtually unusable: way too fragile to give a non-geek user. For another example, the VCS plugins (Subversion, Git etc.) don't get much love. Now I know that this being open source what I- and OP, and anybody else who's unhappy- should be doing is trying to work out how the IDE etc. are put together and then assuming maintenance responsibility *... which would result in a far larger loss of productivity than writing our own app-specific pane manager or driving the local VCS from the shell. I, for one, find the Lazarus IDE "refreshingly conservative": while it's possible to go overboard with packages etc., by and large projects are a handful of well-understood files on top of FPC- compatible source. MarkMLl ** Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2347/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-02 12:13 nice cartoon markml that reminds me of the time a disgruntled opensource programmer broke everything that was using his code.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-02 12:44 Quote from: Joanna on August 02, 2024, 02:13:29 pm nice cartoon markml that reminds me of the time a disgruntled opensource programmer broke everything that was using his code.. Yes, and guess where the developer lived... MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2024-08-02 12:46 Hello. Did you check this ?: https://wiki.freepascal.org/IDE And particularly those pure Pascal projects, with pure Pascal widgetset without any dependencies to other C widgetset? https://github.com/mse-org/mseide-msegui/ and https://github.com/fredvs/ideU/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Edson · 2024-08-02 16:40 Quote from: Yuta on August 01, 2024, 11:48:40 amLazarus IDE is powerful, but it always has an outdated feeling to me. There are people working on Pascal / Free Pascal language plugins on modern IDEs like Jetbrain IDEs or Visual Studio Code, but they are all not perfect. There are plugins to modernize Lazarus like AnchorDocking or IDE Scout etc., but they are also not perfect. Errors can easily happen and crash the IDE with plugins uncontrollably as well. I can deal with Git with just command lines, but some other IDEs provides better view for things like git blame and git merge internally, I ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward. In the end, with the dying of Pascal language itself, I had barely hope on any significant support on Lazarus would appear on any other IDEs. Lazarus IDE would be the only option relevant. It's sad. As I see it's the real opinion of something disappointed of  Lazarus IDE, and in some way, I understand his point of view. I've used several IDE and I know Lazarus is a good tool but I am not going to fall into the fanaticism of saying it is the best. It has a lot of tools and good features (like the Synchro Edit that I don't find neither in Visual Studio or VSCode) but anyway I have the feeling of using an old machine in comparison when I use VS or VSCode. I know that Lazarus is maintained by volunteers and it is difficult to achieve fast changes in a short time, but accepting the weaknesses of Lazarus will be a good starting point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VisualLab · 2024-08-02 17:47 Quote from: Edson on August 02, 2024, 06:40:37 pmI've used several IDE and I know Lazarus is a good tool but I am not going to fall into the fanaticism of saying it is the best. It has a lot of tools and good features (like the Synchro Edit that I don't find neither in Visual Studio or VSCode) but anyway I have the feeling of using an old machine in comparison when I use VS or VSCode. I know that Lazarus is maintained by volunteers and it is difficult to achieve fast changes in a short time, but accepting the weaknesses of Lazarus will be a good starting point. If you compare popular IDEs for various programming languages, created by volunteers (especially from scratch), Lazarus probably comes out the best. Comparing Lazarus (open source) with IntelliJ IDEA (commercial) is pointless. Behind the latter is a large group of well- paid programmers. A separate issue is that it is written in Java, so it requires a fairly powerful computer to work properly. Similar to NetBeans (which has been open source again for a long time now). This is clearly visible in the case of computers such as RPi. Lazarus works quite well on it (and I use it on RPi 3B). However, working with NetBeans on this computer is cumbersome (because of the JVM). The second of the mentioned IDEs, i.e. VSCode, is a nightmare monster made of HTML, CSS, JS (and probably some MS blobs). It works tolerably on a powerful computer. In addition, it lacks many important (for me) functionalities that Lazarus has. And even though it's free, it's developed by a corporation, not an open source community. For script kiddies, it's enough NetBeans itself is quite a decent IDE, I've been using it for many years on my (quite powerful) personal computer (earlier, when I had a "weaker" computer, working in NetBeans was tiring). Incidentally, the decision-makers at Microchip probably had a similar opinion, because they chose this IDE as the basis for their MPLAB IDE X, while other companies chose Eclipse as the basis (e.g. STMCubeIDE, MCUXpresso-IDE, Mountain Studio). Eclipse is much more annoying and confusing to use than Visual Studio (classic, not Code). Many years ago I made several attempts at Eclipse, because I needed a more advanced editor for PHP, JS, etc. And NetBeans turned out to be much more convenient than Eclipse. Either way. There's no point worrying about some inexperienced and naive kid (yes, some can be even 35 years old and have the mind of a teenager - a "soy latte brain"). He was trolling a bit, in his childish imagination: "he was screwing up the boomers." Like a little dog (Pražský Krysařík) who jumps at the feet of passers-by and barks loudly. And when he stomps, he runs away scared and yelps Quote from: Edson on August 02, 2024, 06:40:37 pmAs I see it's the real opinion of something disappointed of  Lazarus IDE, and in some way, I understand his point of view. Honestly, his statement did not contain a well-articulated point of view (no specifics), only a naive verbal taunt mixed with tearful complaining. That is why he was perceived as a troll (a rather inept one at that). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-02 18:18 Quote from: VisualLab on August 02, 2024, 07:47:41 pmIf you compare popular IDEs for various programming languages, created by volunteers (especially from scratch), Lazarus probably comes out the best. How well do the other IDEs- irrespective of whether they're commercial or not- compare when it comes to form designers etc.? Quoteother companies chose Eclipse as the basis (e.g. STMCubeIDE, MCUXpresso-IDE, Mountain Studio). Eclipse is much more annoying and confusing to use than Visual Studio (classic, not Code). Many years ago I made several attempts at Eclipse, because I needed a more advanced editor for PHP, JS, etc. And NetBeans turned out to be much more convenient than Eclipse. I've similarly had several shots at Eclipse over the years, with varying degrees of success depending on who packaged it: by and large there were too many ways to do the same(-ish) thing with no indication of which should be favoured. However I was pleasantly surprised by one set up for a series of WCH RISC-V chips, which was very nicely implemented and... well, just worked. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Chronos · 2024-08-02 19:04 Perhaps somebody can create a new IDE for Pascal which could be more modern and better in various ways. To prove that it can be done There are some alternative Pascal editors/IDEs like: https://cudatext.github.io/ https://github.com/t-edson/P65Pas And even Python IDE written in Delphi https://github.com/pyscripter/pyscripter from which one can get an inspiration. But maybe it is not worth the effort and it is better to let it die... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2024-08-02 19:57 Quote from: VisualLab on August 02, 2024, 07:47:41 pmIncidentally, the decision-makers at Microchip probably had a similar opinion, because they chose this IDE as the basis for their MPLAB IDE X, I spend quite a lot of time in MPLAB X, but 9 times out of 10, if I try to shut down, I get a prompt that threads are still running and if I want to terminate them, usually update threads, sometimes parsing threads. After nearly a decade of use they can't seem to fix that. Anyway, Lazarus, as any IDE has its issues, but what always surprises me  in threads like this, is that people make such a big deal out of minor annoyances and care more for what is modern than what works. My personal pet peeve (after Martin recently fixed AVX2 register view) is tool tips and properties in the debugger. As for Pascal dying, I'm already hearing that for 25+ years, but all the alternatives in the first half of that period have changed so much that they would need recoding, (due to language or library changes) but I'm still using 1997-2003 codebases in Pascal today. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-02 20:48 Quote from: marcov on August 02, 2024, 09:57:40 pmAnyway, Lazarus, as any IDE has its issues, but what always surprises me  in threads like this, is that people make such a big deal out of minor annoyances and care more for what is modern than what works. I broadly agree, and suggest that people are inclined to underestimate the complexity of writing an editor- let alone an IDE- which consistently "does the right thing". If anything does let the project down- and please note that the last thing I want to do is sound like I'm criticising Martin- it's paucity of documentation. With Rust- in particular- in the ascendant, if we could just say "another language? Sure we can handle that... and with some help we can interface the LCL." we'd be in a far stronger position; after all, even if people are uneasy with Pascal we can point to Emacs' using Lisp and emphasise that as an ALGOL-derivative Pascal is far closer to the mainstream. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-02 21:59 I don’t want lazarus “modernized” whatever that means ,I like it the way it is. Nobody should even take the demands of people who don’t use pascal seriously. It’s kind of childish the way non pascal users say I’m not going to use fpc until ____________! There was one troll who even demanded that fpc compile with a c compiler. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-02 22:18 Quote from: Joanna on August 02, 2024, 11:59:29 pmI don’t want lazarus “modernized” whatever that means ,I like it the way it is. Nobody should even take the demands of people who don’t use pascal seriously. It’s kind of childish the way non pascal users say I’m not going to use fpc until ____________! There was one troll whe even demanded that fpc compile with a c compiler. Except that the OT didn't actually say that. (And it shouldn't require any deeper language skills to see that). And the regrets he voiced are those of many, and those many should not be simply dismissed. Nor would the fulfilment of those desires mean to force others to use any new additions. And it is somewhat droll to bring up the entirely unrelated actions of some random troll, when the topic is about entirely valid points. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2024-08-02 22:20 Quote from: MarkMLl on August 02, 2024, 10:48:43 pm If anything does let the project down- and please note that the last thing I want to do is sound like I'm criticising Martin- Neither am I, nor any of the other devels. The remark about values in tooltips while debugging is just what I notice most when comparing with Delphi, which I still spend a lot of time in. Quote it's paucity of documentation. With Rust- in particular- in the ascendant, if we could just say "another language? Sure we can handle that... No, I don't think we can. Moreover it doesn't make sense as per developer motivation, why would a Pascal devel make a IDE for Rust. Just because it is popular or chase after some "market". If so, I'd chase after a language that is mature enough to make its own IDE. Quoteand with some help we can interface the LCL." we'd be in a far stronger position; after all, even if people are uneasy with Pascal we can point to Emacs' using Lisp and emphasise that as an ALGOL- derivative Pascal is far closer to the mainstream. "if you build it, they will come" logic, but that nearly never works out, in the sense that there get more developer hours back than the time put in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2024-08-02 22:39 Why is all those calls for modernizing the IDE? Does the IDE do what it should do as a tool? Why turn this into a beauty contest, this is not a fashion show. Lazarus is a highly usable IDE that delivers what a Pascal developer needs, so why not look at what is missing and is highly needed (personally I don't miss anything) and spend the scarce time of the Lazarus developers on that? Just my 5 cents worth opinion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- korba812 · 2024-08-02 22:57 It's funny, but after working with BSD*BDS 2006 for two years, I noticed that Lazarus at that time was a more stable IDE than BSD*BDS. That's when I moved all my projects to FPC/Lazarus. Of course Lazarus is not perfect, however, I can improve it myself, unlike the competition. edit: I meant BDS (Borland Developer Studio) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Curt Carpenter · 2024-08-02 23:00 In some respects, you can feel sorry for the newer generations of programmers:  they can't really appreciate the magic in the tools they have since they've never lived without 'em.  Yet they too will look back fifty or sixty years from now and wonder how anyone got along with just a keyboard, a monitor and whatever IDE they can remember using back in their good old days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-03 00:06 Quote from: Curt Carpenter on August 03, 2024, 01:00:47 amIn some respects, you can feel sorry for the newer generations of programmers:  I feel sorry for them (and even more sorry for myself.) Some programmers have never experienced the power and convenience of having SoftICE at their fingertips.  Have never experienced what a genuinely capable text editing engine is.  Gone are the days of having people like Andrew Schulman, Sven Schreiber, Matt Pietrek and Geoff Chappell (Geoff is still around doing great stuff) and others taking the O/S apart (DOS and Windows) and writing incredibly useful books about them. Now, you got to do all the hard work yourself with tools that are so inferior to SoftICE that it breaks your heart to see how far _backwards_ we've gone. MS got sued by the DOJ for what it did in Windows 9x to cripple competing web browsers.  Windows 10 is _orders_ of magnitud worse and it's not even on the radar anymore. One of the things that makes Lazarus a really good IDE is that, it's not one of those toys that seeks to dazzle the user with nice looking yet utterly useless features (IDEs like that are literally less than a dime for a dozen nowadays.) My $0.05 on sale today for $0.01  and if you order now... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hcoenen · 2024-08-03 00:18 Well..... As a newcomer with about equally as much posts i'd like to chime in. I read the OP's complaint several times now and all i seem to be getting is this: The look and feel of lazarus ide is outdated. I tried anchordocking etc. to make it look a bit more modernized. the components for this don't work / satisfy me I tried other ide's (which look modern) with plugins for pascal language integration and the plugins don't work /satisfy me. Therefore pascal totally sucks and i give up (and i get a bit of an aftertaste of "and so should you" but this might be just me) I happen to agree on the fact that the lazarus ide looks like an older generation application. For me that is totally fine, works and i like it as-is and a lot, i like it for functionality, not for bling. Opinions may, of course, wildly differ. As discussed, lazarus, like every ide, has it's pros and cons. the OP however does not seem to go in detail about what exactly the problem is. except the modern looks, could you define modern? this can mean anything. Sure packages/components can be a pain in the general backside but besides anchordocking..... i'm really unsure where the OP is aiming at. A bit of clarification might go a long way ---------------------------------------------------------------------- silvercoder70 · 2024-08-03 02:41 Modern vs Dated can be as simple as color and font selection. I personally do not like old the Yellow/Blue combination/color scheme but others might. Syntax highlighting? Auto-completion? Too many settings to change? Things look new with the right coat of paint. There are some things about the form designer that could be better. But it also works. In some ways I might say it is more robust than Delphi IDE. Add in the extensions to VSCode and it slows down. I seen MPLAB die when trying to run program in debug mode. I would sometimes like to be able to use something minimal (vi?) but I don't know the commands so I use something else... like an IDE and accept it for what it is. Also keep in mind that vim was released in 1991. Somebody once said ... you can have looks or functionality, but you can only choose one. Fwiw... I come from the days before mice and appreciate what is there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LV · 2024-08-03 07:08 Quote from: silvercoder70 on August 03, 2024, 04:41:13 am and appreciate what is there. Ach, so, yes. What can we argue about forever? Politics, cars, football, programming languages, IDEs – all that stuff. Plus, arguments like "modern" vs "old-fashioned", "cool" vs "boring" can sometimes be more important than actual functionality, reliability, and stability. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hcoenen · 2024-08-03 09:23 Silvercoder70, You want to take away my nice outdated yellow and blue?    I totally agree with you on all points as i do with LV. A bit of appreciation of what we have does no harm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-03 09:44 Quote from: hcoenen on August 03, 2024, 11:23:55 amA bit of appreciation of what we have does no harm  Well, a bit of disappointment can be even better. If the person acts on it. Check what might be accepted, and create a patch. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Scoops · 2024-08-03 10:08 Personally I like the IDE as it is, no slow loading eye candy, the tools and menu items as needed, easy package manager, no registration, free, no need to download 5 giga of useless add-ons and frameworks I will never use. Etc etc. In the end its a tool to design and build whatever I want in whatever style I want its not the end result. “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”. ― John Lydgate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- hcoenen · 2024-08-03 11:33 Martin_fr, Agree to some level. Some people might not have the skillset (yet) to directly patch the stuff they have issues with. I'm just talking for myself if i say that my level of knowledge is just enough to do very basic and simple things (and probably some things in very horrible ways) for myself. When presented with ide issues i have basically two ways to go. - Accept it for the time being and hope it'll be fixed in time, if not, accept that as fact. - File a bug report and be as detailed as i can be with the level of knowledge i have. After i made sure it really is an ide issue. This does indeed require action. I encountered some bugs but they were already reported. i waited it out, they got fixed. I also find these forums are a pretty good source of information, been lurking around long enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VisualLab · 2024-08-03 13:55 Quote from: marcov on August 02, 2024, 09:57:40 pmQuote from: VisualLab on August 02, 2024, 07:47:41 pmIncidentally, the decision- makers at Microchip probably had a similar opinion, because they chose this IDE as the basis for their MPLAB IDE X, I spend quite a lot of time in MPLAB X, but 9 times out of 10, if I try to shut down, I get a prompt that threads are still running and if I want to terminate them, usually update threads, sometimes parsing threads. After nearly a decade of use they can't seem to fix that. Quote from: silvercoder70 on August 03, 2024, 04:41:13 amI seen MPLAB die when trying to run program in debug mode. I also encountered similar observations about MPLAB X IDE on forums devoted to programming Microchip microcontrollers. I only use this IDE for hobby purposes. In any case, it's a sluggish IDE. You can feel the "big and bloated bulk" of Java in it. Quote from: marcov on August 03, 2024, 12:20:43 amQuote from: MarkMLl on August 02, 2024, 10:48:43 pm it's paucity of documentation. With Rust- in particular- in the ascendant, if we could just say "another language? Sure we can handle that... "if you build it, they will come" logic, but that nearly never works out, in the sense that there get more developer hours back than the time put in. I bet that after creating an IDE for Rust, no one will thank you or appreciate it. There would rather be a whole litany of complaints that this is done badly, that something is missing... So I also think that it is a waste of time to spend time on projects for users of other languages. It is better to spend it on libraries or Lazarus. If Rust lovers really need an IDE, they will create one. And their dedicated effort and time will result in: (1) their own experience, (2) appreciation of what they have achieved, (3) understanding how much work such a project requires. Quote from: 440bx on August 03, 2024, 02:06:46 amQuote from: Curt Carpenter on August 03, 2024, 01:00:47 amIn some respects, you can feel sorry for the newer generations of programmers:  I feel sorry for them... And I don't feel sorry for them at all. There have always been a lot of morons and they have always caused a lot of harm. That is why idiots must be fought (but with civilized methods, e.g. cunning). Quote from: silvercoder70 on August 03, 2024, 04:41:13 amAdd in the extensions to VSCode and it slows down. Which is obvious, because it's a browser that displays HTML files "stuffed" with a huge amount of JS scripts. A similar effect is observed on websites where a lot of scripts have been "stuffed". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LV · 2024-08-03 14:03 Quote from: VisualLab on August 03, 2024, 03:55:48 pm If Rust lovers really need an IDE, they will create one. https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-03 14:34 Quote from: Martin_fr on August 03, 2024, 12:18:41 amQuote from: Joanna on August 02, 2024, 11:59:29 pmI don’t want lazarus “modernized” whatever that means ,I like it the way it is. Nobody should even take the demands of people who don’t use pascal seriously. It’s kind of childish the way non pascal users say I’m not going to use fpc until ____________! There was one troll whe even demanded that fpc compile with a c compiler. Except that the OT didn't actually say that. (And it shouldn't require any deeper language skills to see that). And the regrets he voiced are those of many, and those many should not be simply dismissed. Nor would the fulfilment of those desires mean to force others to use any new additions. And it is somewhat droll to bring up the entirely unrelated actions of some random troll, when the topic is about entirely valid points. I guess by this point it is well known that I only Value the opinions about Lazarus from people Who are actually using fpc and Lazarus. I have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives. It is not prudent to accept “seemingly reasonable advice” from random busybodies. If you do, Your precious project could very well  end up like this.  https://fablesofaesop.com/the-man-the-boy-and-the- donkey.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-03 15:11 Quote from: VisualLab on August 03, 2024, 03:55:48 pmQuote"if you build it, they will come" logic, but that nearly never works out, in the sense that there get more developer hours back than the time put in. I bet that after creating an IDE for Rust, no one will thank you or appreciate it. There would rather be a whole litany of complaints that this is done badly, that something is missing... My point- or at least the point that I hoped to get across- is that with their form-design capability Delphi/Lazarus are substantially ahead of the opposition: I believe that nothing comparable exists for developing Rust code. It's a bit odd, because my impression was that in the early days- 1990s- there was actually more interest in this sort of thing including at least two fairly well-integrated products (from Borland and Netscape) targeting HTML+Javascript coding. Specifically in the case of those two products, if they failed it was because they strongly encouraged the use of the same companies' enterprise-grade servers, when what the World actually wanted was a fairly painless (and, let's face it, free) way of interacting with the dominant servers of the day (Apache and IIS). Is it really credible that developers have made an informed decision to ignore the sort of integrated facilities that Delphi/Lazarus offer, or have they done so out of ignorance? MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-03 15:19 Quote from: Joanna on August 03, 2024, 04:34:02 pmI guess by this point it is well known that I only Value the opinions about Lazarus from people Who are actually using fpc and Lazarus. I have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives. I regret to say that that's not the impression that I have formed. Quote from: Yuta on August 01, 2024, 11:48:40 amLazarus IDE is powerful, but it always has an outdated feeling to me. There are people working on Pascal / Free Pascal language plugins on modern IDEs like Jetbrain IDEs or Visual Studio Code, but they are all not perfect. There are plugins to modernize Lazarus like AnchorDocking or IDE Scout etc., but they are also not perfect. Errors can easily happen and crash the IDE with plugins uncontrollably as well. I can deal with Git with just command lines, but some other IDEs provides better view for things like git blame and git merge internally, I ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward. In the end, with the dying of Pascal language itself, I had barely hope on any significant support on Lazarus would appear on any other IDEs. Lazarus IDE would be the only option relevant. It's sad. That hardly reads like the posting of somebody with absolutely no experience in the area. It could very easily be somebody who has more of a presence on the MLs, or who uses Stack Overflow etc. rather than the forum: the fact that he's specifically highlighted a particular IDE package (not installed by default) that I can say from experience is hardly problem-exempt is telling. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-03 16:21 Quote from: Joanna on August 03, 2024, 04:34:02 pmI guess by this point it is well known that I only Value the opinions about Lazarus from people Who are actually using fpc and Lazarus. I guess you are setup for disappointment then. Because the forum explicitly welcomes people with any kind of interest in FPC, Lazarus, or to some degree just general interest in Pascal. QuoteI have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives.MarkMLI beat me to it, but: The post, and the knowledge revealed in it pretty much say that they has used the Lazarus IDE. (At the very least "used" as in "checked it out" / "tried what it offers"). So by your own words, you should Value their opinion. And I fully expect you to value my word on this. After all, you know very well that I do use Lazarus and FPC. And use it quite a lot, that is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-03 16:57 Quote from: Martin_fr on August 03, 2024, 06:21:47 pmAnd I fully expect you to value my word on this. After all, you know very well that I do use Lazarus and FPC. And use it quite a lot, that is. Now now, Martin. I'm sure that Joanna would notice if the next version of the IDE started inserting random obscenities into her procedure names, or occasionally changed a character to a Unicode lookalike ;-) MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-03 17:36 Quote The post, and the knowledge revealed in it pretty much say that they has used the Lazarus IDE. (At the very least "used" as in "checked it out" / "tried what it offers"). So by your own words, you should Value their opinion.By using fpc I mean writing serious programs in fpc. Looking for excuses to not use Lazarus Is not using Lazarus for its intended purpose. I have met plenty of these types of people who do nothing but nitpick for flaws so they can say nasty things about the project. This is offensive on so many levels. It is not like they are funding fpc development are they?? Since by his own admission the op is not going to use Lazarus because it doesn’t live up to his “high standards” of what an ide should be. His only objective has to be to dissuade others not to use it. Smear campaigns don’t belong in a support forum For the thing being disparaged in my opinion. People who actually use fpc can accomplish something productive by discussing flaws and how to improve them. People who hate pascal and want it to go away can do no such thing. Martin you previously implied that I Misinterpret things as insults , it’s not good to misinterpret things however sometimes insults and bad intentions are real and complacency will lead to losing everything. I know that complacency is the path of least resistance but it isn’t always the best idea. If you want a historical example : native Americans didn’t realize how dangerous the small number European visitors were and look what happened to them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-03 18:46 Quote from: Joanna on August 03, 2024, 07:36:22 pmBy using fpc I mean writing serious programs in fpc. Well, that is your problem then. Don't make it anyone else's. Don't blame anyone for not being in line with your personal ideas. As I said before, this forum welcomes all people who have an interest of any kind in FPC/Lazarus. And just to clarify (though that shouldn't be needed, so apologies for stating something such obvious): "in" does not include "against". But "against" is not based on your whim. And neither is criticism nor disappointment regarded as "against". In fact criticism is a requirement, and without failure of the project would be more likely. Again, I underline that those words of mine are such that you can value, as I have (and am) used (using) Lazarus/FPC, and doing so in most serious projects, such as the IDE itself, which you can verify. So you can trust my word ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-03 18:50 Quote from: Joanna on August 03, 2024, 07:36:22 pmSince by his own admission the op is not going to use Lazarus because it doesn’t live up to his “high standards” of what an ide should be. He didn't say that. He said QuoteI ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward. Attempting to win an argument by misquoting somebody is despicable. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Handoko · 2024-08-03 19:16 Quote from: Joanna on August 03, 2024, 04:34:02 pm... I have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives. Then I should be banned from plenty of forums. My job requires me to use a lot of tools. Learning something to the level to be able to use it to make money takes time and efforts. I have bad experience, found tools that I would want to use, spent time studying it. But later, I found that it had been abandoned by the author. Time wasted, lesson learned. I use Drupal, WordPress, Blender, Lux Render, Yafaray, Gimp, Inkscape, LibreCAD. These software cannot be learned just in period of days or weeks. It takes months or years if you want to able to use it proficiently. I didn't want my time wasted again, before I really started to study them I really did some research, visited their website, read the documentation. And most importantly, I visited their forum many times. I wasn't an user of the software, lucky no one told me if I didn't use their software I would be unwelcome in their community. Sometimes, I just silently read their posts in the forums without register. When I find some interesting tools, sometimes I just bookmarked their sites/forums because I was busy. ZenGL was one of them. I visited their website and forum several times. Bookmarked and would be back. When I had decide to download and study it, unfortunately from their forum I saw its author said he lost interest in ZenGL. Sad but good to know about it before I start studying it. Inkscape was very buggy 15 years ago. I had not decided to use it. I made a test, visited their forum and posted a bug I found. I didn't expect to get any answer, that was my first post there. So I kept using Inkscape even it was almost unusable at that time, had too many bugs, crashed often. Some authors/communities weren't so nice. That's okay, one item less in my list. There are cases a good community becomes bad. I was an active member in WordPress forum, posting helpful comments to help others. Unfortunately, WordPress decided to go professional, they implemented 'polices' in their forum to level I couldn't tolerate. I never visited the forum anymore. I still use WordPress because I have websites to maintain. It is my story. I am one the visitors that sometimes act like a bot, increase the visit count but post nothing. And what about my intention? To see how active the forums? To see how welcome/unwelcome their communities toward new users? To test the author to see how s/he handle suggestions and criticisms? How can we know someone motives when we barely know her/him? How accurate your judgment is? And as long as I do not and have not do anything that harm the community, why should you care my motives and intentions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2024-08-03 19:22 Well said MarkMLI. I think the way Johanna reacts on newcomers scares them away. New forum users are welcome and if one really is a troll people will recognise that soon enough. But please let's not go for the attitude that you need to show your passport or credentials first before you get treated with respect. We have no need for an iron lady. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- af0815 · 2024-08-03 19:49 BTW the original poster have actual only one post yet in the whole forum and here is a 47 posts long thread Only my 2 cents ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-03 19:51 Put another way, Joanna appears to be trying to take over and mold the forum in her own image. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-03 23:10 Markml I wouldn’t want to take over this forum your imagination is running wild. I didn’t quote the original poster I came to a conclusion that he doesn’t like Lazarus. Has nobody noticed yet that the original poster has refused to respond to the first reply from 440bx who was trying to help? Martin is developing Lazarus and seems to enjoy all sorts of people coming here to talk. That’s fine and it is his right to run his forum as he likes. Sometimes though {and I’m speaking as one moderator to another} the most well intentioned policies unexpectedly cause community members distress. In my case I didn’t expect that banning troll accounts would cause non trolls emotional distress but it did. In martins case letting all sorts of Accounts participate in discussions results in helpful well meaning forum members being frustrated and having their time wasted by trolls pretending to need help. There are many threads Like that. I think this is the main point upon which martin and I disagree, I prioritize  protecting the needs of people Who are valuable members of a community over engaging new members. Martins approach is not bad if the majority of new people have good intentions. I once shared this assumption myself and my moderation style was quite lax back then. I recently heard that most of the accounts on social media are bots. Maybe this forum is not immune to current trends... In some situations enemies can force improvement in the context of an arms race. I used to write code for bots in a game and I can say that players constantly trying to kill my bots forced me to make some very robust code indeed. I have doubts that this principle applies to this community though. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-03 23:29 Quote from: Joanna on August 04, 2024, 01:10:21 amMartin is developing Lazarus and seems to enjoy all sorts of people coming here to talk. The forum is not mine. I am just one of the people looking after it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-03 23:49 Quote from: Joanna on August 04, 2024, 01:10:21 amHas nobody noticed yet that the original poster has refused to respond to the first reply from 440bx who was trying to help? My post was to let him know that I felt his post could have been better.  I don't like people who have vague complaints because "vagueness" doesn't help solve problems (and yes, vagueness can be used in malicious ways... the dog whistle kind of thing), but, people should get the benefit of the doubt and given a chance/request to be specific. The fact that he has not posted anything more specific doesn't look good on him but, the point I want to make to you is that, you got to give people a chance to correct their missteps.  If they consistently fail to do that then you'll have a legitimate reason to get on their case and will have facts to support your position. In a friendly manner I am suggesting that you be a little more tolerant initially, i.e, give the benefit of the doubt. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ASBzone · 2024-08-04 06:15 Quote from: Joanna on August 04, 2024, 01:10:21 amI prioritize  protecting the needs of people Who are valuable members of a community over engaging new members. In theory, sure.  But in practice, the way you operate is far more detrimental to a community, because it is very predatory and gatekeeper-ish, and if this particular community were not fairly mature, with responsive moderators and admins, the adverse effects would be far more evident. This is because the most typical response to your interrogations and snide commentary, will cause many people to simply disengage from the forum -- they won't fight or argue. I think Handoko's post captured the essence of that risk quite well. You keep trying to point out that the OP hasn't responded and that this proves something nefarious about them.  Their lack of response could just as easily be a reaction to your interaction with them, rather than any intentions they harbored before that. That's what everyone is trying to tell you, and what you studiously ignore, as though you are the only one who cares about FPC/Lazarus properly or appropriately. In general, I feel that you're well meaning, but way too careless with "weapons" -- and friendly fire still kills just as well as enemy fire. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-04 07:05 Quote from: Joanna on August 04, 2024, 01:10:21 amI prioritize  protecting the needs of people Who are valuable members of a community over engaging new members. Well /don't/. In the context of this forum you consistently get things wrong, and do little except antagonise people. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LV · 2024-08-04 08:03 The phrase "Nolite judicare et non judicabimini" might not be a bad thing to keep in mind when discussing any topics on forums. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2024-08-04 09:38 Hi @LV: Good one, had to look that one up..."judge not, and ye shall not be judged"! Well, as I see it, this is pretty bad news for @Joanna, if we(the rest of us in this forum), were to follow that  ...She *is* pretty judgmental towards others, in contrast to what she actually brings to the table. Just my "Nickle's Worth" Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VisualLab · 2024-08-04 11:36 Quote from: MarkMLl on August 03, 2024, 05:11:26 pmMy point- or at least the point that I hoped to get across- is that with their form- design capability Delphi/Lazarus are substantially ahead of the opposition: I believe that nothing comparable exists for developing Rust code. I completely agree with this statement. And it's probably going to be long before such an environment appears. Quote from: MarkMLl on August 03, 2024, 05:11:26 pmIs it really credible that developers have made an informed decision to ignore the sort of integrated facilities that Delphi/Lazarus offer, or have they done so out of ignorance? MarkMLl Well, various corporations invest a lot of money in their solutions, which were not necessarily ergonomic or effective. But on top of each corporation stands a group of people who do not know anything about technology (or know very little) and are not interested in improving their own solutions (because that would mean more investments, and the money would be better spent on salaries for the management). There must be a profit, and not just any profit, but a large profit. The larger the corporation and the more connections it has with other entities (corporations, government offices), the easier it will push its solution through. Money, and the rest is unimportant. If there is a problem, a so-called "marketing campaign" will be made (meaning brainwashing people). In other words, the management would rather spend money on FUD than on improving its own solutions (because FUDs are probably cheaper after all). Quote from: LV on August 03, 2024, 04:03:48 pmQuote from: VisualLab on August 03, 2024, 03:55:48 pm If Rust lovers really need an IDE, they will create one. https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/ But this is probably their standard IDE modified to support Rust code. I don't think an IDE for Rust written in Rust would be created so quickly (there would be a lot of talk about it). Besides, it's commercial (yes, there is a simple version available for free as an incentive). But anyway, the Rust community has no influence on the development and functionality of this tool. Nevertheless, it's better than nothing for a start. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VisualLab · 2024-08-04 12:00 Quote from: Joanna on August 03, 2024, 07:36:22 pmIf you want a historical example : native Americans didn’t realize how dangerous the small number European visitors were and look what happened to them. It's true that this is off topic, but... The problem of the inhabitants of the Americas was not the arrival of a handful of Europeans. Even if the natives had chased away or killed the first Europeans, it would not have helped. Further waves of settlers from Europe would have arrived. The problem of the original inhabitants of the Americas was: (1) low level of technological development, (2) too small population size and (3) lack of organized social structures of a higher level (i.e. states). Even these populations from Central or South America were backward, despite the fact that there were states there (poorly organized). This is depressing. Because it turned out that people are no different from animals. A herd that is stronger and more numerous drives away or annihilates the weaker herd. There have been many such situations in the history of humanity, not only in the case of the Americas (or Africa). It is happening today, now. Just look at the situation on the island of Papua (New Guinea) and the fate of the Papuans. Half of their country has been stolen by the Indonesian government (and previously by colonizers). And why? Because they can! The conclusion for various nations is that one should: study, work, create social structures, but eradicate social pathologies. And it's good to think about whether the poorer and weaker one really needs help, because it may only be an appearance. And also think about how you help people, because helping unknown strangers at the expense of your loved ones is stupidity mixed with barbarism. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-04 12:28 Quote the point I want to make to you is that, you got to give people a chance to correct their missteps.  If they consistently fail to do that then you'll have a legitimate reason to get on their case and will have facts to support your position. In a friendly manner I am suggesting that you be a little more tolerant initially, i.e, give the benefit of the doubt. I do give everyone the benefit of the doubt until I read their posts, that is when I form an opinion about them. This is unavoidable. The fact that he made no attempt to seek help in the form before he allegedly “lost patience and gave up” and for some reason found it imperative to trash Lazarus caused me to think he is just another pascal hater who wants us to avoid using Lazarus. Your suggestion of getting to know people doesn’t work for there types of accounts because they do hit and run tactics. They are not interested enough in pascal to stay around and develop a reputation in the forums. At this point the discussion will go round and round with idiotic accusations being made about it being my fault despite of the fact that there are plenty of hit and run trolls who disappear before having the pleasure of meeting me. Quote The problem of the inhabitants of the Americas was not the arrival of a handful of Europeans. Even if the natives had chased away or killed the first Europeans, it would not have helped. Further waves of settlers from Europe would have arrived. Visual lab in all cases the Europeans had to be left alone long enough to get established. If they had been killed they would have been unable to brag about gold and other things to steal.  The weakness of the natives was curiosity I think. They didn’t  think it was necessary to kill all the intruders on sight or at least take them prisoner and learn about their technology. The Indians didn’t expect the biowarfare of European diseases either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2024-08-04 12:32 He was not refering to violence, but disease brought in by the Europeans. You should also know that the Aztecs, Maya and Incas were highly technically advanced, in some cases even more so than Europeans, Indians from the Indian peninsula, Thai or the Chinese. And I left some out. A prime example being Base 20 math, which is much easier to work with fractions... What you are refering to is Trumpian legend, believing in fables. In the USA the median Joe comes short of the median western European for that reason. That is different from average Joe... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-04 12:40 Lets leave the history of humanity to a forum more suited, please. It is neither Pascal related, nor a matter for/about this forum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-04 13:31 Quote from: VisualLab on August 04, 2024, 01:36:50 pmBut this is probably their standard IDE modified to support Rust code. I don't think an IDE for Rust written in Rust would be created so quickly (there would be a lot of talk about it). Besides, it's commercial (yes, there is a simple version available for free as an incentive). But anyway, the Rust community has no influence on the development and functionality of this tool. Nevertheless, it's better than nothing for a start. And their standard IDE- Eclipse or whatever- wouldn't have a form designer. I'd add that Lotus (later IBM) Notes had a very good run, and I suspect (cautiously, and would welcome correction) that having a properly integrated development environment was a big part of that. I don't know what Oracle has these days, but would suspect that having gained the Enterprise part of Netscape via Sun that they've picked up and run with that ball. Again, I'd say that Eclipse being based on Java doesn't appear to hamper its adoption by devotees of other languages (including, notably, Ada). And Emacs being based on Lisp didn't appear to harm it. I see no good reason why a RAD IDE like Lazarus should be criticised for its implementation language, particularly if it added substantial value (i.e. a form designer etc.) when compared with other available editors. But attempts to promote Lazarus (as a specific example) on its merits would be a non-starter if even one member of the community was allowed to get away with criticising potential or novice users because of their language preferences, or merely because zhe disliked the cut of their jib. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H₂SO₄ · 2024-08-05 07:00 Lazarus is a wonderful tool, no doubt. But people are quick to judge, and especially the first impression matters a lot. Unfortunately, some defaults in a fresh/first-time Lazarus installation do appear anachronistic to newcomers. From my own experience: The floating/undocked windows. This is a matter of taste, and statistically floating window layouts are simply uncommon. This is immediately off-putting to many newcomers.The default color themes. Light themes have become unpopular, and the default dark themes aren't particularly aesthetically pleasing (case in point:  Twilight; permutations of $FF and $00 in RGB - like #FF0000 red, #00FFFF cyan - don't constitute a well-rounded color palette).The default IDE theme itself. With the currently ongoing obsession about dark themes, a low- friction way of switching to one is essential. On Windows, having to compile a non-OPM package is anything but low-friction to a newcomer.The caret-past-EOL behaviour. My honest first impression was that this must be a bug in one of the most basic text editor interactions. Like with the window layout, it's a choice that simply isn't popular right now.The sparse line numbers. Again, not the popular option.Yes, these are complaints about superficial things. Yes, all these complaints can be resolved. But the end result stays the same - the first impression of a default Lazarus installation evokes feelings of datedness. Changing some default options in the installer and perhaps adding more built-in color themes could alleviate some of this. The first screenshot is from a fresh installation; including default window positioning and sizing. The second screenshot is from a customized installation. Which one looks more in line with a "modern" look-and-feel to you? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-05 07:46 Personally, I believe that too many programmers are giving way too much importance to looks and way to little to function and _useful_ features (not piles of useless ones... which has become typical.) Personally, I dislike docked windows.  It leads to a very inefficient use of screen space.  Your screenshot shows you get 52 lines in your editor window, AFAIC, that's a deal breaker (I got 50 lines back in the days of MS-DOS).  I get 78 lines on a 1920x1200 monitor (a bit "taller" than the standard 1080 but not much.) As far as caret-past-eol, I don't recall what the default behavior is but, any editor that does not allow caret-past-eol is just another notepad, utterly useless AFAIC. As far as colors go, I think that's much too personal to say anything about them.  I prefer dark (solid black background... gives high contrast = less visual effort) and contributed my color scheme (because it was requested) I like the sparse line numbers, less clutter.  I don't like clutter.  I couldn't code 5 minutes with the settings you have.  I'm not saying they are wrong but they are a universe apart from what I am comfortable with.  For the most part I use two windows: the editor window (often two of them) and the watches window.  The rest of the windows lazarus offers get a second or two of attention every once in a while (such as the messages window.) Lazarus is _functional_, that's what an IDE should be. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- wp · 2024-08-05 07:52 Quote from: Khrys on August 05, 2024, 09:00:26 amThe caret-past-EOL behaviour. My honest first impression was that this must be a bug in one of the most basic text editor interactions. Like with the window layout, it's a choice that simply isn't popular right now.Caret past- EOL is perfect to left-align comments at the end of lines. I would not want to miss it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H₂SO₄ · 2024-08-05 09:00 Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amPersonally, I believe that too many programmers are giving way too much importance to looks and way to little to function and _useful_ features (not piles of useless ones... which has become typical.) [...] Lazarus is _functional_, that's what an IDE should be. I don't disagree with you; what I meant to do was supplement the original post with specific examples of subjective criticism: Quote from: 440bx on August 01, 2024, 12:02:37 pmif you have specific deficiencies to mention and how they can be overcome, that could be useful and, in addition, they might be implemented. We could spend all day debating personal preferences, but that's beside the point (as I inferred it) of the topic: Lazarus somehow feels "outdated" to newcomers. How can we address this? The things I pointed out are deviations of Lazarus from current mainstream IDEs. Deviations that, although superficial and unimportant, make no good first impression on novices who are used to mainstream tools. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-05 09:15 Quote from: Khrys on August 05, 2024, 11:00:14 amThe things I pointed out are deviations of Lazarus from current mainstream IDEs. Deviations that, although superficial and unimportant, make no good first impression on novices who are used to mainstream tools. I believe you have a point there.  People get used to certain things and if they don't see those things, it may leave them with a bad impression. That said, I don't think that's a good reason to change Lazarus. I understand you're not implying that... I just want to make that point. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- kupferstecher · 2024-08-05 09:44 Personally I prefere the floating layout over the docked one because of better usage of space. I like to use large fonts and often work on the 14" laptop, so I want the code editor to go from the very top to bottom. In other IDEs I find my self always dragging the separators up and down and left and right to see anything. That said I think the Lazarus layout could be improved by docking some of the things. What I would like to have is one main window with (reduced) menue bar, source editor and message area. In the left side there could be the project inspector. This window I'd adjust to 9/10th of the screen width, so other windows are accessible like in the floating layout. So this main window would contain everything you need for pure coding. Then the forms in seperate windows, also a window with OI and there could be a tab in the OI window with the component palette. In the beginning I really liked that the forms come in own windows as it completely looks like in the application. Later it didn't matter anymore for me. I think such compromise between docked and floating could give a better first impression and also benefit the regular users. But again it somehow is a matter of taste. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2024-08-05 09:45 Quote from: Khrys on August 05, 2024, 11:00:14 amWe could spend all day debating personal preferences, but that's beside the point (as I inferred it) of the topic: Lazarus somehow feels "outdated" to newcomers. How can we address this? Maybe first ask the question should we address this? Will it ever be good enough to change that opinion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2024-08-05 09:48 Hi QuoteMaybe first ask the question should we address this?No! Lazarus is just fine as it is. Just my 2 cents Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2024-08-05 09:50 Quote from: cdbc on August 05, 2024, 11:48:02 amHi QuoteMaybe first ask the question should we address this?No! Lazarus is just fine as it is. Just my 2 cents Regards Benny I'm not saying that. There is certainly room for improvement (and IMHO anchordocking is not bad, I use it always, so an question on first startup to auto enable it on would be good IMHO). But I don't believe some half assed accelerated trajectory to modernise will achieve the goals that green newcomers suddenly will revise their opinion. It will just move on to the next detail. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2024-08-05 10:16 Hi I hear you Marco and agree with you, apart from the docked 'thingy', there I'm with 440bx... Your notion on the question 'bout it, at first startup, I second. +1 Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-05 10:29 Quote from: marcov on August 05, 2024, 11:45:55 amMaybe first ask the question should we address this? Will it ever be good enough to change that opinion? The "elephant in the room" here is Android: whether or not anybody will ever attempt to use it for development the fact is that it (and its lack of multiple windows) is extremely influential on the expectations of more than half the people on the planet. I for one consider this to be regrettable, in particular the loss of a menu structure with sensible naming and pop-up hints is a very big retrograde step. But it's still something we have to live with, and we need to recognise that while it might be possible to introduce some ideas on their unarguable merits (e.g. menus) there are others which being arguable are less easy to promote (the choice between having windows invisible because they've been overlapped and having panes invisible because they've been shrunk to an edge). MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-05 13:24 Quote from: marcov on August 05, 2024, 11:45:55 amQuote from: Khrys on August 05, 2024, 11:00:14 amWe could spend all day debating personal preferences, but that's beside the point (as I inferred it) of the topic: Lazarus somehow feels "outdated" to newcomers. How can we address this? Maybe first ask the question should we address this? Will it ever be good enough to change that opinion? Definitely should not try to change the Lazarus ide for the benefit of complaining strangers with unknown intentions. This reminds me of online gaming when they tried to imitate other games in hopes of getting more customers and only succeeded in wrecking the game for the people using it and making them all quit.. Lazarus is fine the way it is for the most part. Although I did encounter a doozy of a bug today in Lazarus ide Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]window.onload = function(){var x1 = document.getElementById("main_content_section"); if (x1) { var x = document.getElementsByClassName("geshi");for (var i = 0; i  FUNCTION TBASIC_COL_FILTER.SQL_SEGMENT( CONST COLUMN_NAME: SHORTSTRING):SHORTSTRING; BEGIN // The procedure becomes empty if I press enter here and it takes two undo to restore it.  CASE TABLES_INFO.GET_INFO(TABLENAME)END; If I press return after the begin, the entire procedure becomes empty and takes two undo to restore it, TABLES_INFO.GET_INFO Is a function that returns a class. I’ve never seen such a bug before... why is it doing that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-05 14:29 You probably have some form of  smart indent in the codetools options enabled. In that case codetools attempts to figure out what amount of indent you may want when you press return (e.g. add some indent after a begin). Anyway, it is a bug, and should be reported on the bug tracker (if it isn't there yet). With appropriate info of the involved required settings to reproduce. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2024-08-05 15:33 Hiho Stop right there Joanna...QuoteTABLES_INFO.GET_INFO Is a function that returns a class. and then you proceed to use it like this: Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]window.onload = function(){var x1 = document.getElementById("main_content_section"); if (x1) { var x = document.getElementsByClassName("geshi");for (var i = 0; i  FUNCTION TBASIC_COL_FILTER.SQL_SEGMENT( CONST COLUMN_NAME: SHORTSTRING):SHORTSTRING; BEGIN // The procedure becomes empty if I press enter here and it takes two undo to restore it./// I don't think you can use a class in a CASE statement /// CASE TABLES_INFO.GET_INFO(TABLENAME) // <--- HEREEND;  I'm of the impression that you cannot use a class in a case statement, but ofc I might be wrong... Could it be that the codetools are complaining about that?!? Regards Benny edit: typo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-05 15:40 Hi cdbc yes I’m aware that the code is junk that I happened to be editing.. Martin I think that I have something that automatically indents after the begin when I create a begin end block it always indents. I tested it further and it seems that the “case” keyword causes the problem. If the case is not more indented than the begin it empties the procedure. I can’t make bug report because I’m not using latest Lazarus client. Can anyone else test it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2024-08-05 16:15 Hi Hang on, I've just got the new 3.4 installed, this afternoon, I _ordered_ it just 2 weeks ago and now it's in our Linux distribution's repository, that's nice and quick  I'll be back... ...and I'm back; Right you are Joanna, laz actually closes said method with an end and then creates a new one below it, which starts with "CASE" instead of "Procedure"...  Thats's funny  See the attachment... Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- VisualLab · 2024-08-05 17:01 Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amPersonally, I believe that too many programmers are giving way too much importance to looks and way to little to function and _useful_ features (not piles of useless ones... which has become typical.) I also personally believe that too many developers place too much importance on appearance and too little on functionality and _useful_ features. Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amPersonally, I dislike docked windows.  It leads to a very inefficient use of screen space.  Your screenshot shows you get 52 lines in your editor window, AFAIC, that's a deal breaker (I got 50 lines back in the days of MS-DOS).  I get 78 lines on a 1920x1200 monitor (a bit "taller" than the standard 1080 but not much.) Personally, I love docked windows. It makes for very efficient use of screen space. Especially when I'm working on a 3840 x 2160 pixel screen and have many programs running. I can spread them all over the screen and see them at the same time. I don't have to move and arrange each of the Lazarus windows because they're always docked in the same place. I work in a similar way with Delphi, NetBeans, and Visual Studio. Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amAs far as caret-past- eol, I don't recall what the default behavior is but, any editor that does not allow caret-past-eol is just another notepad, utterly useless AFAIC. As for "caret-past-eol", I agree with the previous speaker that any editor that does not allow "caret-past-eol" is just another notepad, completely useless. I have been using this functionality since the donor, it helps me a lot in my work. Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amAs far as colors go, I think that's much too personal to say anything about them.  I prefer dark (solid black background... gives high contrast = less visual effort) and contributed my color scheme (because it was requested) As for colors, the current default configuration is the best. I can't stand the idiotic fad of so-called "dark themes". They are hard to work with. It annoyed me even in the MD-DOS days (but then they weren't themes, they were a necessity). I still prefer light themes, because then my eyes don't get tired. Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amI like the sparse line numbers, less clutter.  I don't like clutter.  I couldn't code 5 minutes with the settings you have.  I'm not saying they are wrong but they are a universe apart from what I am comfortable with.  I agree with the previous speaker on this. I also don't like mess. Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amFor the most part I use two windows: the editor window (often two of them) and the watches window.  The rest of the windows lazarus offers get a second or two of attention every once in a while (such as the messages window.) I use many Lazarus windows (areas). I use the source code editor the most. But I also use the graphical form editor, object inspector, project inspector, debug window intensively. The only thing that I think could be changed is to separate the component viewport (visible at the top of the object inspector) from the property and event grids of the selected component. Quote from: 440bx on August 05, 2024, 09:46:27 amLazarus is _functional_, that's what an IDE should be. Amen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-05 22:38 Quote from: cdbc on August 05, 2024, 06:15:45 pmHi Hang on, I've just got the new 3.4 installed, this afternoon, I _ordered_ it just 2 weeks ago and now it's in or Linux distribution's repository, that's nice and quick  I'll be back... ...and I'm back; Right you are Joanna, laz actually closes said method with an end and then creates a new one below it, which starts with "CASE" instead of "Procedure"...  Thats's funny  See the attachment... Regards Benny Mine does that too, I hadn’t noticed where the procedure text had gone because I didn’t scroll down on my small screen. So it inserts a space and Then closes with an end as if it’s creating a new begin..end block. So that’s why it takes two undo to get rid of space and extra end. @martin @marco we found a bug in Lazarus ide. Can someone report the bug please? They don’t like people using old ide over there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2024-08-06 00:02 On Khrys's list - Quote from: Khrys on August 05, 2024, 09:00:26 amThe floating/undocked windows. This is a matter of taste, and statistically floating window layouts are simply uncommon. D: Maybe uncommon but absolutely essential on a smaller screen. I do most of my work on a 1900x1200 laptop, anchored would leave the important editing window unusable.The default color themes. Light themes have become unpopular, D: No, I disagree, speaking to my users, most prefer the lighter colour schemes, but I find Dark Theme users more vocal on the topic.The default IDE theme itself. With the currently ongoing obsession about dark themes, a low-friction way of switching to one is essential. D: possibly useful, certainly not essential !The caret-past-EOL behaviour. My honest first impression was that this must be a bug in one of the most basic text editor interactions. D: Would certainly be a bug in a Word Processor but Lazarus is not a Word Processor, it is essential !The sparse line numbers. Again, not the popular option. D: Makes for quick reading when scanning down a page, I like it. Sorry Khys, I dispute every point.  I don't think we'd come to blows about the sparse line numbers but I do prefer the Lazarus approach. The rest are really important to me. Whats really happening here is Lazarus is developed by Lazarus users with feedback from Lazarus users. The emphasis is on usability, not what other people are doing ! Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ASBzone · 2024-08-06 01:23 Quote from: marcov on August 05, 2024, 11:45:55 amMaybe first ask the question should we address this? Possibly. Anything that makes it easier for people to learn about how to change the options to suit their preferences is probably a decent use of effort (relatively speaking). I don't generally care about defaults, so long as I can change the configuration and do so in a reasonably simple way.  And more kudos if my changes can easily be saved and applied, or otherwise survive updates. I am deliberately speaking in generalities, and not implying that Lazarus is good or deficient in any or all of these areas.  I'm just answering Marcov at a high level, in terms of what might be a useful, longer-term consideration in this discussion. Matters of taste and aesthetics are difficult to get consensus on, and I can honestly say that in the past quarter century, there have been very, very few times when some software developer changed UI-related defaults, and I was please with them.  And, sadly, most of those times involve them changing something back from a more disastrous change in the just-prior version. I know that I like consistency in my interfaces, and I get that not everyone is like that.  But as long as the tool is functional, and offers me quite a bit of flexibility in configuration, and the ability to keep/maintain those tweaks, I am happy, and willing to endure a lot of "progress." (I just upgraded Audacity to v3.6.x the other day, and I hate the tweaks to the UI, but let me not start problems here... 🤣) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H₂SO₄ · 2024-08-06 05:52 Quote from: dbannon on August 06, 2024, 02:02:44 amSorry Khys, I dispute every point. Quote from: VisualLab on August 05, 2024, 07:01:01 pmI can't stand the idiotic fad of so-called "dark themes". Quoting my own post: Quote from: Khrys on August 05, 2024, 11:00:14 amWe could spend all day debating personal preferences, but that's beside the point Again, what I meant to do was to concretize some of the vague complaints the creator of this thread had - mostly regarding the comparison with JetBrains IDEs and VSCode (the "mainstream"). It's a matter of fact that in the examples I gave, Lazarus is the one that deviates from the norm. What merit these differences have is irrelevant: they are, in the most literal sense (!), simply not popular. Not bending over backwards in an attempt to please everyone is a very respectable stance. It's true that the "masses" will never be satisfied. But unfortunately I feel like the refusal to change that's evident in this thread kinda proves the OP's point that Lazarus  "has an outdated feeling". "Why fix it if it ain't broken" is a good motto, but in an evolving environment even just standing still means falling behind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-06 06:56 Quote from: Khrys on August 06, 2024, 07:52:47 amBut unfortunately I feel like the refusal to change that's evident in this thread kinda proves the OP's point that Lazarus  "has an outdated feeling". "Why fix it if it ain't broken" is a good motto, but in an evolving environment even just standing still means falling behind. Not necessarily.  Two examples come to mind, back in 2000/2001 there was SoftICE, a system debugger which ran on MS-DOS, Win9x and WinXP.  Today there is nothing like it.  Wdndbg is functionally similar but, it certainly isn't a hotkey away at all times and, it certainly doesn't understand Delphi's debugging symbols (SoftICE did.)  Today, with a lot of work, you can replicate SoftICE's functionality but, the point is: the loss of productivity is _brutal_, nothing short of _brutal_.    Wndbg Preview edition (available on Win10 and possibly Win11) is a very modern looking debugger but, it is nowhere near the convenience of SoftICE (very modern and very substantial loss of productivity but, it has to be said, it is a very powerful debugger and it knows a lot more about Windows than meets the eye.) The other example that comes to mind is editing.  I've probably tried every editor ever coded and for the great majority of them my reaction is: "you call this an editor ???... you've got to be kidding".    I could probably type 200 lines worth of facts noting how brutally superior ME is to anything available today.  Unfortunately, even though it is _vastly_ superior to anything available today, it is now a defunct product.  Since I mentioned I could type 200 lines worth of facts, I'll mention one: Multi-Edit is coded in an interpreted language that resembles C (the DOS version used a language that resembled Pascal), what's important is this: the executable is an editing engine controlled using that language.  When I didn't like something in the editor or simply wanted to add a feature, I just coded it and "compiled" it (byte code for the engine), in most cases, I didn't even have to restart the editor.   Scrolling up/down/left/right is _at least_ 3 times faster than in any other editor.   The undo facility is without equal.  In spite of being interpreted (well.. byte code actually... still... not machine code), it is _fast_, a lot faster and more responsive than any other editor I've tried (and as I said, the few editors I haven't tried are probably used by a lost tribe in an unexplored area of Africa.) Bottom line is: while my editor doesn't have a lot of "fluff" features the current crop of "editors" (please note the quotes) provide, it is a vastly superior editing engine and, as far as features, if there is a feature I want bad enough I can code it myself and it will become a native part of the editor in short order.  One exception to that last sentence: I like some of the features codetools provides in Lazarus and a codetools like facility could be added to ME but, that's too much work considering the feature is available in Lazarus.  Solution: use both editors. Honestly, since 2001, I think programming environments have gone substantially _backwards_.    They may look very modern but, in my eyes, they look painfully useless in the common case and barely bearable in the best case. I don't do any substantial amount of editing in Lazarus but, I consider it to be usable for adding/modifying a few lines (and that's very high praise.) "Modern" doesn't mean it's good.  In most cases "modern" seems to be a synonym for eye candy with functional value that approximates the nutritional value of actual candy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-06 07:35 Quote from: 440bx on August 06, 2024, 08:56:46 amTwo examples come to mind, back in 2000/2001 there was SoftICE, ... brutally superior ME is to anything available today. So the bottom line appears to be that only hardcore users of a product (i.e. at more about 25% of the purchasers) use and appreciate the areas in which it stands head and shoulders above the competition, and that they aren't sufficient to keep it commercially afloat. Considering that SoftICE was very much a DOS/Windows product and that ME was similarly PC-oriented, I wonder whether there are equivalent unix debuggers and whether Eclipse could be configured to match ME's competence? And I wonder whether there's anything that can be done to promote the integrated designer/debugger that Delphi/Lazarus offer, assuming that by now well over 75% of developers are quite simply unaware of such things? MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dseligo · 2024-08-06 07:50 As I see it, two most prominent features often requested to make Lazarus more 'modern' are one window (anchordocking) and dark mode. There are probably many current users who already uses one or both of those. So if Lazarus installation offers choice to turn on or off anchordocking and on or off dark mode, it would satisfy most people, IMHO. Another thing to make it easy for new users is 'buttons' easily found to turn on/off those features after Lazarus is installed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-06 08:03 Quote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 09:35:13 amI wonder whether there are equivalent unix debuggers I am not particularly well informed when it comes to unix or unix-like O/S but, I seriously doubt there is anything available on those that remotely matches SoftICE.  The reason I say that is because SoftICE was the premier hacking/cracking tool.  It is/was truly genuinely famous.  If there was anything remotely like it available on a flavor of unix, I believe it would be famous too. Quote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 09:35:13 am and whether Eclipse could be configured to match ME's competence? I doubt it.  What makes ME so special is that it isn't really an editor, it is an engine that provides text editing primitives and a language to manipulate them.  Its strength lie in the engine and its ability to compile its language into fast byte code.  The ME engine is used to implement a text editor but, I think it could probably be used to write utilities that run in the editor (a bit like java/javascript apps that run in the browser... except ME is vastly faster and more efficient.) Quote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 09:35:13 amAnd I wonder whether there's anything that can be done to promote the integrated designer/debugger that Delphi/Lazarus offer, assuming that by now well over 75% of developers are quite simply unaware of such things? I don't know what steps can be made to promote the Lazarus' integrated debugger (FpDebug.) By now, I completely agree that it has become a notable asset in Lazarus.  In some areas I prefer it over the debugger in Visual Studio which I consider to be really, really good. The only feature that keeps me using the VS debugger is assembly debugging (of course, other than the availability of some libraries in C only.) Quote from: dseligo on August 06, 2024, 09:50:37 amAs I see it, two most prominent features often requested to make Lazarus more 'modern' are one window (anchordocking) and dark mode. There are probably many current users who already uses one or both of those. So if Lazarus installation offers choice to turn on or off anchordocking and on or off dark mode, it would satisfy most people, IMHO. Another thing to make it easy for new users is 'buttons' easily found to turn on/off those features after Lazarus is installed. One possibility that comes to mind is to have a "first run" type of utility help the user configure Lazarus by means of a "wizard" that offers options such as anchor docking, dark mode (or some of the color schemes available for download) and, possibly other settings. Just a thought. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-06 09:04 Quote from: 440bx on August 06, 2024, 10:03:35 amWhat makes ME so special is that it isn't really an editor, it is an engine that provides text editing primitives and a language to manipulate them.  Its strength lie in the engine and its ability to compile its language into fast byte code. I can't help it, but that sounds like Emacs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- H₂SO₄ · 2024-08-06 09:11 Quote from: 440bx on August 06, 2024, 10:03:35 amOne possibility that comes to mind is to have a "first run" type of utility help the user configure Lazarus by means of a "wizard" that offers options such as anchor docking, dark mode (or some of the color schemes available for download) and, possibly other settings. For comparison, this window is the first thing the user sees after installing IntelliJ IDEA (apart from license & telemetry agreement popups): ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRon · 2024-08-06 09:58 Quote from: Khrys on August 06, 2024, 11:11:18 amQuote from: 440bx on August 06, 2024, 10:03:35 amOne possibility that comes to mind is to have a "first run" type of utility help the user configure Lazarus by means of a "wizard" that offers options such as anchor docking, dark mode (or some of the color schemes available for download) and, possibly other settings. For comparison, this window is the first thing the user sees after installing IntelliJ IDEA (apart from license & telemetry agreement popups): I would settle for being able to change the configuration without the need to open or create a project first. But as was being told, that is a well-though design decision that will not be changed. Having some sort of a startup-wizard (which Lazarus already has) will imho contradict that decision. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-06 10:01 Quote from: Khrys on August 06, 2024, 11:11:18 amFor comparison, this window is the first thing the user sees after installing IntelliJ IDEA (apart from license & telemetry agreement popups): It's dark... My eyes will be tired before I find the button to make it light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-06 10:16 Quote from: Martin_fr on August 06, 2024, 11:04:21 amI can't help it, but that sounds like Emacs. It uses the same concept as Emacs but, it's very different.     I loved the DOS version that was programmable in a Pascal-like language.  Heaven! I'm not fond of the C-like version (which runs on Windows) but, it works (though I remember they got rid of a few features presumably because they weren't useful in Windows - a view I thought was questionable in at least some cases.) @Khrys, That looks good and, seems practical. The one configuration feature I'd like to see is a "one button" export of all configuration settings.  Currently you have to go to multiple screens and export things individually and, I'm not even sure it is possible to export all configuration changes.   That is inconvenient and has been a problem for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2024-08-06 10:32 So, perhaps minimal disruption ? A tool that 'edits' the config and then triggers a "make useride" command ? That tool would allow packages to be added (such as anchor docking) and system colours set.  And other useful things over time ... Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-06 10:56 Quote from: 440bx on August 06, 2024, 12:16:44 pmThe one configuration feature I'd like to see is a "one button" export of all configuration settings.  Currently you have to go to multiple screens and export things individually and, I'm not even sure it is possible to export all configuration changes.   That is inconvenient and has been a problem for me. Just copy the entire config dir? Yes, that will copy files that include paths setup specific to your machine. But if you exported settings, those paths would likely be included too. Because depending on for what you want to use the export you may or may not need them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2024-08-06 11:02 Quote from: Martin_fr on August 06, 2024, 12:56:30 pmJust copy the entire config dir? Yes, that will copy files that include paths setup specific to your machine. But if you exported settings, those paths would likely be included too. Because depending on for what you want to use the export you may or may not need them. Thank you for the suggestion.  One of these days, I'll give it a try. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRon · 2024-08-06 11:07 Quote from: dbannon on August 06, 2024, 12:32:37 pmA tool that 'edits' the config and then triggers a "make useride" command ? That tool would allow packages to be added (such as anchor docking) and system colours set.  And other useful things over time ... Not directly what I would have thought but to me that seems a very nice idea. Especially the package selection and editor/colours config. Such approach could peacefully exist next to each other. Nice thinking ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-06 12:18 I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who uses a small screen and needs the ide parts to be split into several pieces to fit well. I do prefer Lazarus with black editors and am glad that it lets me choose. Before I discovered Lazarus I tried to use Xcode and I could not understand it at all. Honestly I’m tired of these “one post wonders“ and their complaints If he likes “modern” junk so much, there are plenty of places to find it. Or if he was serious let him make a Lazarus branch ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-06 13:45 Quote from: dbannon on August 06, 2024, 12:32:37 pmA tool that 'edits' the config and then triggers a "make useride" command ? No, because that wouldn't reliably build it for the user's chosen widget set. There's already a startup to select the compiler version etc. and it should be possible to put such things there, although I suggest there could aslo usefully be a "revert to defaults" in the IDE itself. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-06 13:49 Quote from: Joanna on August 06, 2024, 02:18:37 pmI’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who uses a small screen and needs the ide parts to be split into several pieces to fit well. I do prefer Lazarus with black editors and am glad that it lets me choose. Before I discovered Lazarus I tried to use Xcode and I could not understand it at all. I sympathise, honest. There's also possible issues of people with eyesight or joint problems etc.: sometimes subtle UI factors can have profound usability implications. QuoteHonestly I’m tired of these “one post wonders“ and their complaints If he likes “modern” junk so much, there are plenty of places to find it. The consensus was that he knew what he was talking about and was making informed comments. You've caused enough damage, so please stop your incessant complaining about every user who offends you. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-06 13:57 Quote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 03:49:01 pm so please stop your incessant complaining about every user who offends you. Shouldn't that be "by whom you feel offended"? The user has done absolutely nothing to offend her in any way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-06 14:16 Quote from: Martin_fr on August 06, 2024, 03:57:12 pmQuote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 03:49:01 pm so please stop your incessant complaining about every user who offends you. Shouldn't that be "by whom you feel offended"? The user has done absolutely nothing to offend her in any way. Agreed both points :-) MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2024-08-06 14:35 Quote from: VisualLab on August 05, 2024, 07:01:01 pmPersonally, I love docked windows. It makes for very efficient use of screen space. Especially when I'm working on a 3840 x 2160 pixel screen and have many programs running. I can spread them all over the screen and see them at the same time. I don't have to move and arrange each of the Lazarus windows because they're always docked in the same place. I work in a similar way with Delphi, NetBeans, and Visual Studio. On both programming desktops I have two 27" 1920x1080 monitors, one of which in portrait mode. That latter (portraint) one, I use for IDEs (Delphi,Lazarus and MPLAB X as the main ones, and a bit of VS), all in docked mode. Nearly always I have a docked layout with all excess windows auto disappearing so that. Also I mainly browse the web on this portrait monitor.  The landscape one I use for the running program and watching youtube. In some debug cases I undock watches and CPU windows to have it on the other screen and in permanent view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- MarkMLl · 2024-08-06 14:56 Quote from: marcov on August 06, 2024, 04:35:29 pmOn both programming desktops I have two 27" 1920x1080 monitors, one of which in portrait mode. I've used various over the years, and even very old setups where e.g. windows couldn't be dragged between screens were a substantial improvement in productivity particularly in an environment where a demanding director was inclined to 'phone me at any hour of the day (or night). I'm currently fortunate enough to have a 30" 2560x1440, some obscure Korean brand (which actually turns out to be a very good performer) which I got for a song /but/ had the expense of driving over to the Stockbroker Belt to collect it from the graphics designer who'd out grown it :-) If I had to choose, I think that resolution is more important than size particularly if one does not have to jump around, view the screen from the far side of the room and so on. After all, even a relatively small screen can be moved closer, even if it results in (for us oldies) the purchase of a different pair of spectacles. The extreme case would be some sort of head-mounted display, but it's going to be a long time before that sort of thing is really usable for sustained editing etc. MarkMLl ---------------------------------------------------------------------- rca · 2024-08-06 15:59 IMHO a survey could be done on whether users currently prefer the IDE to be docked by default. When the Lazarus IDE is compiled with QT6 in Wayland it is almost mandatory to have it docked, since all the windows (Components, Object Inspector, Forms, Code...) are not kept in the desired position... The Lazarus IDE is very complete, intuitive and robust. The trunk version already has more modern icons. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2024-08-06 16:47 QuoteYou've caused enough damage, so please stop your incessant complaining about every user who offends you. +1 I fully agree with MarkMLI ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dtoffe · 2024-08-06 20:55 Quote from: silvercoder70 on August 03, 2024, 04:41:13 amFwiw... I come from the days before mice and appreciate what is there.     Hi, I come from the time when you had to switch the Turbo Pascal floppies between editing and compiling because your computer only had drive A:\ ... and that was wonderful, because a mere couple years before I had to type the program's code (on a _lent_ Spectrum's keyboard) from a magazine every time you wanted to run it!     Kids these days... Daniel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-06 21:37 Quote from: Martin_fr on August 06, 2024, 03:57:12 pmQuote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 03:49:01 pm so please stop your incessant complaining about every user who offends you. Shouldn't that be "by whom you feel offended"? The user has done absolutely nothing to offend her in any way. If the user had “done nothing“ I wouldn’t be offended. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2024-08-06 22:40 Oh Johanna please stop and behave as a normal forum user. This forum already has moderators and you are notone of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2024-08-06 23:13 Quote from: Joanna on August 06, 2024, 11:37:11 pmQuote from: Martin_fr on August 06, 2024, 03:57:12 pmQuote from: MarkMLl on August 06, 2024, 03:49:01 pm so please stop your incessant complaining about every user who offends you. Shouldn't that be "by whom you feel offended"? The user has done absolutely nothing to offend her in any way. If the user had “done nothing“ I wouldn’t be offended. For someone who only very recently boasted their English skills that is a strange question, given that you even quoted all relevant parts. Or maybe you apply those skills in an extremely selective manner.... ??? As far as I am concerned, there is an easy to spot difference between (your) "did nothing" and the original "did nothing to offend ... in any way". If someone is offended by normal (within the context) action, then the problem is with the one that got offended. On this forum, the actions of the user qualify as normal. If that offends you, then you chosen to be on a place that is not suitable for you... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joanna · 2024-08-07 01:10 Being offended is a matter of opinion.