Suggestions.. lazarus / 7-LCL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tuyen · 2007-05-21 06:22 Okay...here's the deal.. I love the fact that there's a free/open source IDE and compiler out there for people like myself who love Pascal and/or Delphi. I first heard of Lazarus a few years ago and around two years ago I even downloaded one of the early versions to try it out.  I realize that back then things were still very much in their infancy...but I just downloaded the latest build earlier today...and needless to say I was shocked. On the one hand, it's clearly obvious that a lot of work went into Lazarus since the last time I tried it.  But I was also shocked at some extremely disappointing elements too. First of all, the Win32 installer tells me that I can't install to a directory with spaces in the name.  My reaction was..."Huh?!  You've gotta be kidding me..." So in order to install to my Program Files folder, I had to manually tell the installer to go to Progra~1. Come on people...get serious! It's 2007 now.  Not 1987. We've had spaces in files and folder names for 13 years now ever since Windows 95. The second thing that appalled me was the fact that a blank executable came out to 6566 KB.  That's just absurd.  And when I say "blank", I mean a simple form with nothing on it.  If I do one of those in Delphi 6, it compiles to 385 KB.  But in Lazarus, it compiles to 6566 KB. Hmmm...let's see... 385 KB...versus 6566 KB. The exact same functionality, but 17 times larger. What's wrong with this picture? I want Lazarus to be a success...but there's obviously some really fundamental things that need to be taken care of if that's ever going to happen... I'll check back in another two years... Hopefully things will be better.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Snijders · 2007-05-21 07:15 Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we can dump the gnu tools. Maybe external debug info can be used, so ignorant people don't look at executables with debug info, if they look at the size of executables. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- felipemdc · 2007-05-21 07:35 Quote from: "tuyen"First of all, the Win32 installer tells me that I can't install to a directory with spaces in the name.  My reaction was..."Huh?!  You've gotta be kidding me..." Not our fault. Tell that to the guys that created the GNU tools QuoteThe second thing that appalled me was the fact that a blank executable came out to 6566 KB. FAQ: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#Why_are_the_genera ted_binaries_so_big.3F By the way, please take some time to read the other FAQ entries: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq QuoteI want Lazarus to be a success...but there's obviously some really fundamental things that need to be taken care of if that's ever going to happen... Yes, we need a very, very big FAQ button =) Sorry, couldn´t help it making this joke =P ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Snijders · 2007-05-21 11:20 Maybe we should add an additional screen in the installer, where people agree to have read the FAQ. Maybe a quiz to determine if they acctually did read the FAQ. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bee · 2007-05-21 19:51 It's simply inevitable. No matter how hard you try to make users to READ, there are still big possibilities that they wouldn't actually READ it. That's why I called it as User's Law... http://beeography.wordpress.com/2007/04/10/the-users-law/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tuyen · 2007-05-22 01:26 Go ahead...make all the jokes you want... But keep in mind...first impressions count the most. And if a person's first impression is anywhere close to what mine was, then you've got a lot of public relations issues that you're simply ignoring altogether. This isn't really a surprise...because it's this type of mentality that's prevalent all throughout the open source community.  You have this misconceived notion that before anybody uses your software, they should already be experts, or they should first read some bloated 235 page document (cleverly called a FAQ) on why things are as bad as they are...but if you read our 235 page document, we promise to make you feel better about it. The end user doesn't want to read your FAQs...nor does he want excuses...or jokes...or be made to feel like HE's the problem. The end user wants to install the software and have the software make a good first impression, and work as expected without making the user jump through a hundred different hoops in order to achieve something that is just expected normally.  If something as basic as THAT can't be understood, then Lazarus (and Linux, and all other such projects) will continue to remain in the hands of the same 4 or 5% of users (the geeks who refuse to get out of the command-line world and accept the fact that it's 2007...and we've now progressed to graphical intuitive interfaces). If you want to market your product to that 4 or 5%...then by all means...go ahead. But if you want your product to be used by everyone, then you gotta get your act together and make your product WORK as it should, rather than blame the user for not reading an entire book on why your software isn't quite as good as your competitor's. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- felipemdc · 2007-05-22 08:35 We don't want to sound rude or make fun of you. I already apologised in advance in my first message and would like to do it so again now. But the thing is that these topics were already covered millions of times in this same forum and discussed to the end. A quick search would lead to several answers about the problems you posted. They are known, but the solutions to them are also known. thanks, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bee · 2007-05-22 19:03 @tuyen: Sorry if what I've said sounds rude to you. You made fun of yourself. Lazarus is a volunteer community project, not a commercial product with 24/7 sweet customer supports. Besides, Lazarus is a development tool which obviously made to serve and used by developers. How can you be a good developer if you don't even want to READ and SEARCH? Like sekel said, the answers are already here in this forum, it's all just a few clicks and types away. How hard can it be for a developer? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tuyen · 2007-05-23 03:51 Quote from: "bee"  Lazarus is a development tool which obviously made to serve and used by developers. How can you be a good developer if you don't even want to READ and SEARCH? Delphi is a development tool also. And guess what - I didn't have to read FAQs or search through forums in order to make it work properly. I installed it, and it worked. It allowed me to use spaces in my installation path, and it didn't produce bloated executables that were 17 times the necessary size.  It made a very good first impression on me because it didn't do anything to make me scratch my head and say to myself "Hmmm...this seems crazy...I better go look at the FAQ..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- felipemdc · 2007-05-23 05:44 Quote from: "bee"Lazarus is a volunteer community project, not a commercial product with 24/7 sweet customer supports. Actually I´d say that our mailling list / forum support is better then most commercial support I´ve seen out there (unfortunately this particular thread isn´t a good example, but it´s a exception). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bee · 2007-05-23 06:04 @tuyen: Can't you see the difference? Because Lazarus is NOT Delphi! Learn the differences, please. I repeat: Lazarus is a volunteer community project. What make Lazarus has gone this far and reasonably comparable to Delphi 6 is because we are all working together to make it better, not just by complaining without even try to figure out solutions. And guess what... there are more and more Delphi developers and Delphi component vendors using and supporting FPC/Lazarus. If FPC/Lazarus is bad, that wouldn't be the case. Besides, AFAIK, all free open source projects are never intended to take over the market. They're just provided as alternatives so the market has options. I don't like to say this... but, if you think Lazarus isn't good enough for you, then you can simply throw it into your trash can and stick to your lovely Delphi and Windows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Snijders · 2007-05-23 15:00 One important point to keep in mind is that Lazarus needs in the first place developers to survive, not users (buyers). We expect them to be good developers, being able to read the FAQ and not be fooled by public relations campaigns. Of course feel free to use Lazarus, if you want. Or not if you don't want. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tuyen · 2007-05-23 21:32 Quote from: "bee"I don't like to say this... but, if you think Lazarus isn't good enough for you, then you can simply throw it into your trash can and stick to your lovely Delphi and Windows. Already done...rest assured. And you can bet that I'm not the only one who has done that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tuyen · 2007-05-23 21:36 Quote from: "Vincent"One important point to keep in mind is that Lazarus needs in the first place developers to survive, not users (buyers). We expect them to be good developers, being able to read the FAQ and not be fooled by public relations campaigns. Of course feel free to use Lazarus, if you want. Or not if you don't want. Absolutely classic. This is the EXACT kind of attitude that has kept Linux in the hands of a tiny percentage of the market...and it's this exact same attitude that will keep Lazarus there also -- nothing more than a lame attempt at trying to be something that it isn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Legolas · 2007-05-23 21:47 Quote from: "tuyen"Quote from: "Vincent"One important point to keep in mind is that Lazarus needs in the first place developers to survive, not users (buyers). We expect them to be good developers, being able to read the FAQ and not be fooled by public relations campaigns. Of course feel free to use Lazarus, if you want. Or not if you don't want. Absolutely classic. This is the EXACT kind of attitude that has kept Linux in the hands of a tiny percentage of the market...and it's this exact same attitude that will keep Lazarus there also -- nothing more than a lame attempt at trying to be something that it isn't. My reply could sound a bit harsh, but (using your words): Absolutely classic. This is the EXACT kind of attitude that has kept Linux in the hands of a tiny percentage of the market... and it's this exact same attitude that will keep Lazarus there also -- nothing more than a lame attempt at trying to find in it some other thing that isn't. I'm very sorry that this "lame attempt" isnt like you want. BTW, as someone has already suggested, feel free to use another tool that fits your needs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- antonio · 2007-05-23 23:41 A furious file size question... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- felipemdc · 2007-05-24 00:29 Lol! This thread is a disaster ... I think we should have been more polite. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bee · 2007-05-24 05:49 Lol! We'd have been more polite if the thread starter (TS) was also asking politely as well. See another thread with similar topic, the TS is nice and open-minded. The TS guy in this thread simply don't understand what open source community project is all about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Snijders · 2007-05-24 06:08 How can I say in a polite way, that for me (as one of the Lazarus developers, others may think differently), I don't care if Lazarus has 100 or 1000 or 10000 users. I might even get more satisfaction from having 10 users than 1000 users, because 10 users provide less bug reports and bug reports always have been something unpleasing to me, how much people tell me that bug reports are a sign of 'life' or use of a project. What would like to see is more people like Tom, Paul, Felipe who contribute large new parts (and like Paul) fix bugs. So Sekel, do you think my attitude turns people like you away? Please say so, because that woudl hurt the project, more than telling people expecting a Delphi clone to look somewhere else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- felipemdc · 2007-05-24 07:02 Quote from: "bee"Lol! We'd have been more polite if the thread starter (TS) was also asking politely as well. See another thread with similar topic, the TS is nice and open-minded. The TS guy in this thread simply don't understand what open source community project is all about. I re-read the first post and I think you are right. I hadn't fully read it on the first time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2007-05-24 07:06 Vincent, I think you're polite enough. It seems some people think that the Lazarus project is not only trying to make a good alternative for Delphi but is also trying to mimic a commercial company while doing so. Wrong! I see the Lazarus project as a enthousiastic project run by volunteers that are trying to create a good Delphi alternative. Of course there's still a long way to go to make it a full grown Delphi replacement but a lot has been achieved already. Personally I think filesize of the EXE-file is inconvenient but no more than that and sometime in the future this inconvenience will be tackled. More important is that the compiled file really does what it is intended to do. So don't get discouraged by some not so polite reactions and know that a lot of other Lazarus users do appreciate the efforts you have all put into this project so far.   Jan Roza ---------------------------------------------------------------------- antonio · 2007-05-24 17:11 Quote from: "JanRoza"So don't get discouraged by some not so polite reactions and know that a lot of other Lazarus users do appreciate the efforts you have all put into this project so far. Of course. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pascaluvr · 2007-05-27 07:38 I'm a newbie that didn't read the FAQ - and yeah, my first 'empty' executable was 5MB.  I still didn't read the FAQs - I just Googled the problem and on the first page of hits I found the very reasonable explanation - plus the tool I needed to trim my application back to 400kb. Now compare this with the memory leaks I read about in a release of Delphi.  A search takes you to 100,000 pages of people complaining about the problem - and the solution (eventually) was to pay for the next release of Delphi! Gee - I wonder why Lazarus/FreePascal are getting more new users every day? Thatnks to all the people that give their own time to such a great product ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bah · 2007-06-24 05:40 I think there are good point on both sides of this argument.    I looked at Lazarus only 1 year ago, and did uninstall it after a fruitless week of effort.  I came back just 3 weeks ago and although it has some major issues still, I have already ported a major Delphi application (still not really working but almost there).  The real reason for such a port:  portability on other systems.  We have an untapped Mac user base that we want to cater for (i.e. make money from), as well as people continually asking for a Windows 64 bit version (yes, I know the 32 bit would work just as well, but you have to make what the user wants as well - they are in the end paying).  Delphi sadly has left 64 bit support until 2008 (or longer), and will never touch a Mac system. Some problems with the current Lazarus are: - it has some stability issues (i.e. Fatal errors etc), but I also had similar (although not as nasty) problems with Delphi (eg 2005).  You just learn to steer away from the problems. - the components sets are pitiful.  Yes, there has been lots of development, but it has a real way to go.   In the last week I have ported at least 10 components (sorry they are all commercial so I can't submit the code to the community - although I will send them off the the developers - maybe they will one day support Lazarus).  I really don't know why others are not doing more on this front.  Also the graphic icons in the components palette are basically crap.  I installed Pascal Script and saw what we should really be doing - nice, crisp, colorful icons.  I know it adds absolutely nothing to the code, but when I saw Lazarus 3 weeks ago after a 1 year hiatus and saw the component palette I instantly thought "oh no its still pox" (Glad I stuck with it though).  I am happy to help freshen them up a bit. - there really needs to be a push to the component developers to support Lazarus.  Delphi and VB are successful because of there components. I use several component sets from various suppliers: Teechart, TMS, Developer Express, Raize, as well as freeware: VirtualTree, GraphicEX, ToolBar2000.  I have only stuck with Lazarus because of one thing:  VirtualTree was ported.  My projects use that extensively, as well as GraphicEX.  Thankfully opbitmap works just was well (even better I think) as GraphicEX. Out of the commercial components I was able to get TeeChart working (they almost have it ready anyway so there was only rudimentary things to do) and a few TMS components (the HTML ones that I happen to use).  I looked at some of the more complex components (AdvStringGrid) and it was beyond me. When looking at the code of TeeChart and VirtualTree (good examples as they are both visual, fairly complicated, and used widely in the community) you can see the code is written well (hence the reason for porting quickly).  Others sadly are not so well written and may never be able to be ported. I think that if the components are developed fully then Lazarus will have a bright future. I did find some recurring themes while porting: - certain properties are not supported. This was actually minor and I would rush to stop using it (lazarus that is) because of it. - Message handling is somewhat hit/miss (mostly miss).  Certain messages types are not recognised.  Having Delphi open at the same time allowed me to see that it was really a redefinition of a simple message (eg a TWMKey message say).  Easy to fix/change, but annoying.  I will gladly update the LMessages/Messages units to include the missing ones - but I am not sure the process of changes or even if these types are changes welcome. - Graphics - my god this is a big one.  The most problematic thing is the TImage/TGraphic/TBitmap/TPicture/TWhateverelse issue.  It really is not a Lazarus thing as Lazarus (both by design and need) needs to be system independent.  Unfortunately most, if not all, component writers have implemented a varied range of widely different ways of doing graphics.  I tried to port HTMLViewer - oh what a mess.  Even the simplier HTMLLite does not work. - non-visual components port well.  Unfortunately I don't want a DOS program (nor do my customers). - some more important fundamental issues such as MDI.  Sadly even when you finish the porting - bam! - you can't get it to work because of some fundamental issue.  Hopefully these will be fixed over time. Sorry for the ranting.  Summary:  get more component developers to support Lazarus (commercial ones! - free ones are good (eg VirtualTree - in fact better than good), but the commercial ones have become commercial because they are good!).  Even an email saying - "Are you going to release a Lazarus version of XXXXX".  You would be surprised if a company gets a few of those they start thinking - "mmmmm, maybe there is demand that I can fill". Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vincent Snijders · 2007-06-24 13:02 I will ignore the rest for brevity ;-) Quote from: "bah" Summary:  get more component developers to support Lazarus (commercial ones! - free ones are good (eg VirtualTree - in fact better than good), but the commercial ones have become commercial because they are good!).  Even an email saying - "Are you going to release a Lazarus version of XXXXX".  You would be surprised if a company gets a few of those they start thinking - "mmmmm, maybe there is demand that I can fill". Good point. This is also a task which can be better executed by the Lazarus users than the Lazarus developers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bah · 2007-06-24 22:32 I agree, there must only be a handful of developers of Lazarus, whereas there must be hundreds (or thousands) of developers who use Lazarus.  If only 10-20% of those approached software houses who develop delphi/net components then there might be a effort to develop more components for Lazarus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Zaher · 2007-06-25 00:06 The real disappointing is you work for free and spend your time then some one compare your work with commercial things!. I believed FPC/Lazarus well be the best with more time and patience. My bad English not give me the words to make un-disappoint ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LazaruX · 2007-06-25 08:36 For Tuyen POST SCRIPTUM Is delphi also cross compatible? I don´t think. Lazarus is cross compatible, thats becuase its better. Keep buying Delphi, or running the illegal copy of it if you want, WE the Lazarus develoeprs will use Lazarus, read a little bit more FAQ's, but WE will keep our money to go out with our girlfriend and drink something, instead buying a software  like you do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Almindor · 2007-06-25 19:51 The guy was right on one thing tho. First impressions count most For those who care, it shouldn't be so difficult to add a special "popup" system ala *office helper to popup and annoy users with "did you know you can get a 900kb binary just by using certain compiler options" That's one solution to the size problem too The gnu stuff is a bigger problem tho, perhaps the gnu tools can be patched... but I don't care about windows so ---------------------------------------------------------------------- antonio · 2007-06-29 00:36 See this thread: http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?name=PNph pBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3884 Quote from: "Almindor2"First impressions count most I agree, partially. People must know what is an open source project and how it works.  However, in my translations I have paid special attention on translating the IDE menus, I want them to be readable and with all portuguese accents, etc. Perhaps this thread show us the importance of support, which begins to come out. Right now, Sunday, forum has 800 users on-line. Anyway, Vincent is right when he said Lazarus will survive while it has developers, no matter how many users. Users are a consequence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bah · 2007-07-03 00:48 Had a look at the latest SVN and see the change in icons - good work.  It really does add that little extra professionalism (yes Open Source can look proffessional). Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- antonio · 2007-07-08 20:17 Quote from: "bah"(yes Open Source can look proffessional). Linux is professionally used by thousands of companies all over the world. IBM announces: "IBM supports Linux". Mandriva will have its own office on Lagos, Western Africa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- henrytj · 2007-09-01 01:42 I have to agree with Tuyen on many points. I think FP and Lazarus are a great start. I think there is a need for open source and free programming systems that are not based on C (Ugh!) A lot more people don't like C that the C community would ever let itself become aware of. Pascal is my favorite language, I especally like the cheetah as that is one of my favorite large cats. But like Tuyen, I agree that there is some of the same dysfunctional attitude here that tends to drive some people away from projects like this.  You need developers and users alike. First time users can be especially instrumental in identifying flawed features. I am giving Lazarus the benefit of the doubt, but I too am on the verge to switching to Turbo Delphi. I havn't installed it yet because I have the worry that once I start using it then I will stop using FP and Lazarus. I understand there are delays and gaps in open source projects. But its more the attitude that is pushing me away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- antonio · 2007-09-01 10:48 Quote from: "henrytj"I think there is a need for open source and free programming systems that are not based on C. I agree. Lazarus doesn't need users because it already has all users it needs for its internal working. Quote from: "henrytj"But its more the attitude that is pushing me away. What do you say about my attitude? It is not positive? But your attitude is not positive. Have a constructive attitude and you will not see so many problems on the forum questions and aswers. And you, what do you need from Lazarus Project? If you want to use Turbo Delphi -- if you are used to use it --, go ahead, we will not say "don't use it". I use Delphi sometimes myself. Have a positive attitude and don't  worry so much about insignificant things.