Website renovation lazarus / 64-FPC development ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-03-12 12:47 Hello, I really like Free Pascal and I would like to contribute to its development. Many other programming languages ​​have a fairly modern website. The FPC website is very nice as it is, but its design is getting old. This certainly plays a role in the fact that fewer and fewer people are using it. I have some basic knowledge of web development, and if you don't mind, I would like to try to improve the site while keeping some elements that seem quite important to me  . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Handoko · 2025-03-12 14:57 Glad to know you want to offer your help to make the website better. Perhaps you can make a demo site showing us your idea, or at least show us some sketches. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-03-12 15:42 I'm going to work on a first demo version of the website and will come back to you to present it in a while. I'm glad you agree to let me present some of my ideas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRon · 2025-03-12 15:48 Free pascal website sources are located here. The website is build, not designed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-03-12 17:58 Thanks! I mainly want to modify the front-end, but I don't really understand where to modify the actual structure of the pages... I imagine it's in the adp2html transpiler. I find the adp file system quite intelligent, even though I personally would have preferred HTML because I'm not yet familiar with adp. It's okay, I'll learn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRon · 2025-03-12 19:59 Wish I was able to help out there Wilrakov but in all honestly I never played with the website itself. I say this with the greatest respect to the maintainers but for these kind of projects a website is more like a bit of an afterthought (nobody has actually time to work on it). It should be easy to maintain fast, and take up as little time as possible. In that regards a overhaul by someone that has a bit more time on his/her hands would probably be appreciated (no idea but I take a guess there) but it might perhaps be a good idea to have a conversation with one of the maintainers in order to get on the same page (in case there is any). I don't believe you can post issues in the bug-tracker of the website repository but the merge requests seem present. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-03-12 20:49 Quote from: Wilrakov on March 12, 2025, 06:58:04 pmThanks! I mainly want to modify the front-end, but I don't really understand where to modify the actual structure of the pages... I imagine it's in the adp2html transpiler. It is a simple template generator with a json configuration. The menu template is site-master.adp. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CM630 · 2025-03-13 08:55 The website looks fine to me. Maybe the image on the top of the page should not be fixed, but changing, showing different views of Lazarus. So IMHO before changing anything, maybe some sample views shall be presented, to determine which looks better. Compare: https://www.arduino.cc https://www.python.org https://visualstudio.microsoft.com https://www.java.com/en/ (do we have a female model to compete with it)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dseligo · 2025-03-13 11:29 Quote from: CM630 on March 13, 2025, 09:55:56 amhttps://www.arduino.cc https://www.python.org https://visualstudio.microsoft.com https://www.java.com/en/ (do we have a female mode to compete with it)? Lazarus' website have grey margin (border) on left and right side. All these other sites occupy full width of screen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TRon · 2025-03-14 11:19 I forgot to mention the Lazarus website repository which can be found here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-03-15 12:31 Well, if you're happy with the current site, we can leave it as it is, but we still need to make a mobile version. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Aruna · 2025-03-15 13:51 Quote from: Wilrakov on March 15, 2025, 01:31:06 pmWell, if you're happy with the current site, we can leave it as it is, but we still need to make a mobile version. Hello Wilrakov, the site I believe is fully responsive and mobile friendly. It uses bootstrap to do this. Please have a look at the attached screenshot. Why not build a mock-up with your *improvements* if you're so inclined and do have the time then share a link so others can have a look and give you feedback? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-06-29 20:25 A few months ago, I told the Free Pascal community that I wanted to work on a redesign of the website. At the time, I considered directly improving the official codebase, but I eventually gave up, as I didn't want to dive into the tedious process of modifying the existing structure. In the meantime, I focused on other personal projects. Recently, I decided to start from scratch and build a modern, lightweight version of the Free Pascal website for those who might be interested. This project is completely independent and unofficial, but I hope it can serve as inspiration or simply as an alternative, more modern version to explore the Free Pascal resources. https://freepascal.vercel.app https://github.com/wilrakov/fp-website ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-06-29 21:02 I am not in the FPC team, so this isn't an official response. Nice to see that you provide something, to show you put your money where your mouth is. Definitely puts you way above the masses. Quote from: Wilrakov on June 29, 2025, 10:25:59 pmhttps://freepascal.vercel.app Unfortunately as my personal taste goes... Ouch, dark. Too dark. Bad for my eyes... Sorry, but it's a fact that things are easier to spot at daytime when its light, than at night in a dark alley. I know that "dark" is "modern" or "cool", but its not worth my health. I don't mind if others want to add stress to their eyes. (Or reduce it, because a dark site, is indeed better if you are unable or unaware of the need to correctly set the brightness of your screen and environment). But at least make it a choice. Well you don't need for me, since I am not the target audience: I already have fpc, and download it from git, and haven't been on the official homepage in a long time. Also, it does nothing in my browner at first, because I have JS disabled. Other pages have the courtesy to at least tell me that I need to enable it, and many open source project sites work without. And well, yes not a big fan of the "fade in" effects, but they are in line with the rest of the page. So from a less personal, and more objective view: Nice. While there are buttons at the top (because it took me ages to figure that I could also just scroll), the home page is oddly empty. If I where new, and came to that page, then all I get to see is the - name - download button - the menu on the top telling me, I need to click to other pages to get any information at all. I would have to be very interested to start with, so that I would follow any of them, rather than just leaving. There should be at least some teaser info on the first page. Like current version, and at least the headings of the key features or something like that. Or add the version, and have some small header/banner of the next page "lurking" in at the bottom "next ...", to make it more recognizable that extra info is just a scroll away. For me personally, I also am very fond of webpages giving me a quick way to get to a changelog. So I can decide if I want a new version. That doesn't have to be on the home page, but would be nice on the download page. Sorry for the amount of critic. Some is just my taste. Some maybe might help to improve the page. Again, thanks for putting the time in to show your vision. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-06-29 21:15 Some more follow up. Ignoring that I personally don't like the fade in. When I test responsive (using firefox, inspect, testing responsive)... - Then the menu becomes a drop down (indicated by the 3 lines) => fine. - When I open it, the menu with all entries is immediately shown - Then the entries disappear, and fade in (from the side) That seems odd. Why show, hide, fade in? -------- Also, while I am not into dark, in responsive, the last page (with all the download buttons) is such that the buttons take 90% of the screen space, and only 10% are background color. Since the buttons are brighter than the background color, scrolling down, my screen suddenly lights up. Given that (against my desire) my pupils by that time have adjusted for "night in a dark alley", the sudden brightness actually was like blindingly bright.... The overall brightness coming from the entire page should not change by such major differences. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-06-29 23:30 Thanks for your feedback! I realize it's far from perfect, but it was a small project I completed in an hour. As for the download buttons at the bottom, I'll fix that problem in the next hour. As for the navbar, I thought it looked good the way it was, but I'll change it in the future to better meet your expectations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-06-30 03:24 I like the structure of it but a bit more content on the initial landing page might be nice. But, if it was a democracy, I'd vote it down because of the dark theme. The world is depressing enough at present. I know the minimalist look is fashionable right now but personally, I always feel pleasantly surprised, even encouraged, when I land somewhere the first time that has a richer 'detail' readily available. But that is quite personal. Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CM630 · 2025-06-30 06:17 Quote from: Wilrakov on June 29, 2025, 10:25:59 pm... https://freepascal.vercel.app ... IMHO, this is too minimalistic, even for me. And too dark. And needs some screenshots. What puzzles me in the current website is that when I click the screenshots, they do not open in a bigger size in a front layer, so I can switch between them, but a new webpage gets open instead. Quote from: Joanna on June 29, 2025, 11:02:09 pmI like the website the way it is. What gives random people who don’t use pascal the right to demand that the website be changed. I see nothing wrong with someone willing and trying to contribute to Lazarus. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Warfley · 2025-06-30 09:23 Quote from: Wilrakov on June 29, 2025, 10:25:59 pmhttps://freepascal.vercel.app The problem is, it has absolutely no character and no communicates nothing. You could just replace the text with any other application and it would be equally applicable. Design is about communicating meaning, this doesn't. It's generic and replacable. It has no identifiable Color Scheme that is recognizable to the users of the product. It has no pictures and no recognizable iconography. Even the text that is there contains much less information than you can currently find on the lazarus startpage. The current Lazarus Website is to cluttered in my opinion, in that there is to much stuff in a small area. But the solution is not to remove things but to better space them out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-06-30 10:28 Hey everyone, I understand that some of you are attached to the current Free Pascal website and don't necessarily want to see it changed — and that's totally fine. Just to be clear: my project is a personal initiative, it's not meant to replace the official website. I simply wanted to share my own vision of what a more modern homepage for Free Pascal could look like. That being said, I've already taken some of your feedback into account: ✔ I added a light/dark mode toggle. ✔ I included some code examples directly on the homepage. ✔ The site now works even with JavaScript disabled, at least with basic information visible. ✔ There's also a changelog button on the download page for quick access. Thanks for all the constructive feedback, even if opinions differ — it's part of what makes the community great! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CharlyTango · 2025-06-30 15:48 In addition to the now modern type of “dark design”, this design is a one-pager, which are also modern. This is not my cup of tea at all, neither in design nor in function. I understand your push, because the whole lazarus site landscape is not really inviting or functional. But in order to achieve a comprehensive change, it needs the will of all those involved and I haven't seen that for years. Lazarus is developer-focused, which is good for further development, but IMHO other skills are needed for external communication. Without detailled specification and defined targets you will end up nowhere. I don't understand why every serious (external) contract project requires a specification that is as precise as possible, but for an internal project they just go for it. Please don't take this personally, it's just my opinion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Warfley · 2025-06-30 18:16 If you look at websites for other languages, which go a similar route as what you are trying to achive like: Python: https://www.python.org/ Scala: https://www.scala-lang.org/ Ruby: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/ Haskell: https://www.haskell.org/ They all follow a pretty similar pattern: They begin with a very big logo of the language followed by a catchy tag-line and a code example which shows some of the main idioms of that language. After that there is the download button, links to a getting started guide and/or the documentation. Also the whole page is designed in the color scheme of the Language logo. For python it's blue and Yellow, for Scala Red and teal, for Haskell the different shades of violet and for Ruby it's red and white. Your website does neither incorporate the logo of the FPC nor it's colors. The code examples are very deep down, and you haven't even linked the documentation or any other resources. If a user who does not know FPC visits the website, what do they get presented that makes them want to use the language? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Handoko · 2025-07-01 01:56 Warfley++ Quote from: Warfley on June 30, 2025, 08:16:28 pmThey begin with a very big logo of the language followed by a catchy tag-line and a code example which shows some of the main idioms of that language. +1 Quote from: Warfley on June 30, 2025, 08:16:28 pmthere is the download button, links to a getting started guide and/or the documentation. +1 Quote from: Warfley on June 30, 2025, 08:16:28 pmAlso the whole page is designed in the color scheme of the Language logo. For python it's blue and Yellow, for Scala Red and teal, for Haskell the different shades of violet and for Ruby it's red and white. I don't thinks Lazarus/FPC is strongly associated with a certain color. But I like the idea. Before I try new software, I usually want to see what it looks like and what is the generated results look like. So please add some screenshots. Maybe you can use some animated screenshots from here: https://wiki.freepascal.org/New_IDE_features_since And some screenshots from here: https://wiki.freepascal.org/Projects_using_Free_Pascal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-07-01 05:59 The problem, from a 'presentation' point of view is that FPC and Lazarus are different things. Here, we are talking about the FPC website. FPC is a command line thing, unless you add LCL (or other good widget sets, hello Fred !) it makes command line applications. I understand the FPC team don't want FPC's identity blurred with Lazarus, at least in the public view. So, what colour is a command line app ? Depends on your terminal colours. Screen shots are really not that visually attractive. Some attractive code ? Maybe, its time to consider that blurring, to some superficial extent ? You know, first Impressions ... Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-01 06:49 There are a number of "differences" that are readily noticeable between the Free Pascal website and other language's websites. The one that seems to really jump at one's sight is the lack of a logo that identifies the language.  I'd say, the first step in making a nice looking web site (in addition to functional and informative) is to have a nice looking logo that identifies the language.  I'd consider that "step 1." (way overdue too!) Reorganizing the information presented on the site wouldn't hurt either but, I'd focus on the logo first. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-01 07:42 Well, the new site doesn't seem to please you, so forget it if you want. The goal was never to replace the old one; in fact, the one I developed is dependent on yours. I don't intend to remove it from the internet, but if you don't like it, there's no point repeating it over and over again. Thanks anyway for all your replies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PierceNg · 2025-07-01 07:47 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 09:42:03 amWell, the new site doesn't seem to please you, so forget it if you want. The goal was never to replace the old one; in fact, the one I developed is dependent on yours. I don't intend to remove it from the internet, but if you don't like it, there's no point repeating it over and over again. Thanks anyway for all your replies. Thank you for making the effort. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-01 09:28 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 09:42:03 amWell, the new site doesn't seem to please you, so forget it if you want. The goal was never to replace the old one; in fact, the one I developed is dependent on yours. I don't intend to remove it from the internet, but if you don't like it, there's no point repeating it over and over again. Thanks anyway for all your replies. It sounds like you're feeling discouraged.  There are several crucial things you are bringing to the table, among them, a genuine desire to improve what is already there and, the time and knowledge to make the improvements.  This is good stuff. I suggest you go about it roughly this way: ask people what they think are problems or deficiencies in the current site and how they would improve it.  Ask them to be as specific as possible because someone stating "I don't like it" doesn't give the causes that should be addressed. You obviously have the knowledge and talent to create something nice.  Give people a chance to provide ideas about how to improve the current situation. My $0.02 offered in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2025-07-01 10:47 Hi QuoteThere are several crucial things you are bringing to the table, among them, a genuine desire to improve what is already there and, the time and knowledge to make the improvements.  This is good stuff.I totally agree with 440bx here +1 @Wilrakov: Don't get discouraged mate, people around here don't see /changes/ that often  You might even say, we're a bit conserva'stiff'  I concur, you obviously have the skills and I see some good suggestions on how to move forward with your 'website-proposal', if you keep nudging it in a direction, that people can relate to, I think the core-team will notice your efforts and pay more attention to your stuff... Btw. if you could come up with a cool version of a logo for FPC, that would be nice. (I think the one we/they have is just the letters 'fpc' shaped into a logo)  Just my "Nickle's Worth" Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ALLIGATOR · 2025-07-01 10:51 Please try not to turn the site into something unusable and overloaded with animationsConsider the possibility of the site working without JSConsider the possibility of easy maintenance; perhaps the best solution would be something like Hugo, a static site generator where all pages are in markdown formatIt would be cool to implement REPL FPC support on the site, for example using WASM (I saw an announcement from the FPC developers somewhere, but unfortunately without a binary to try it myselfI value practicality over aesthetics (which is why I don't really like the global trends of the last 10 years in GUI/UI/UX) UPD: 6. It would be even better if all editing and the source code of the site were transferred to GitLab and the GitLab pipeline was configured to roll out changes. (PS: maybe someone has WASM binaries to run FPC on a web page?)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-07-01 12:13 Yeah Wilrakov, don't take it too hard.  People here are very defensive of what they have been using for a long time. I'm (pleasantly) surprised how positive the responses have been. Honestly, I think most posts here are positive, constructive criticism, not rejection ! As I said earlier, I don't like the dark theme and would like to see a bit more detail. But I do like your overall thrust ! And I agree, in principle, change is needed. This Logo thing is a problem, maybe that could be a key to a breakthrough ? Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-01 13:20 I've already added light mode and a JavaScript-free version. What else do you think is needed to make this new website as suitable and accessible as possible for everyone? I've noticed some people mentioned that having just a single-page layout isn't ideal, so that's definitely something I plan to improve. I'm also working on a Community Projects page to showcase recent open source projects written in Pascal. If you'd like yours featured, feel free to contact me at wilrakov@proton.me. I'm convinced we can build something great together. Pascal has been my favorite language for several years — we can't afford to let it fade away. And honestly, when I look at the current website, I can't help but think of all the potential newcomers who might visit, only to be discouraged and leave. The Community page I'm planning will gather open source projects, tools, and libraries written in Pascal. One thing that's always bothered me is the lack of a clear, central place to discover what's available in the Pascal ecosystem. I completely understand that change is difficult. But if we want to attract new users and ensure Free Pascal continues to thrive, we have to modernize the website. I'm not giving up on this project. Every single comment, whether it's positive or critical, helps shape this site. And just to be clear — my goal isn't to replace the existing site, but to offer an alternative that can appeal to more people. Thanks for your support. I really hope you'll continue to help me with this project — a project for the whole community, where we should be coming together, not drifting apart. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-07-01 13:58 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 03:20:57 pmI've already added light mode and a JavaScript-free version. What else do you think is needed to make this new website as suitable and accessible as possible for everyone? Completely write it in fpc standard libraries? Pure Pascal? Eat your own dog food? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ALLIGATOR · 2025-07-01 13:59 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 03:20:57 pmI really hope you'll continue to help me with this project — a project for the whole community, where we should be coming together, not drifting apart. This further convinces me of the need to host the source code of the site in Git (Hub, Lab, etc.). So that interested people can make edits and submit MergeRequests. And then, perhaps, Markdown would be the most convenient language? We need an engine that will allow us to apply your website styles to the content in Markdown. Perhaps one of the ready-made ones is already suitable, and all that remains is to develop a theme/style. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-01 14:30 Quote from: ALLIGATOR on July 01, 2025, 03:59:39 pmQuote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 03:20:57 pmI really hope you'll continue to help me with this project — a project for the whole community, where we should be coming together, not drifting apart. This further convinces me of the need to host the source code of the site in Git (Hub, Lab, etc.). So that interested people can make edits and submit MergeRequests. And then, perhaps, Markdown would be the most convenient language? We need an engine that will allow us to apply your website styles to the content in Markdown. Perhaps one of the ready-made ones is already suitable, and all that remains is to develop a theme/style. To convert Markdown to HTML, there's the Marked JavaScript library. I'm going to work on this integration. The source code for the current website is available on Gitlab. But I didn't want to venture into the complexity of that old project. And my source code is available on Github. So everything is accessible and editable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-01 14:32 Quote from: Thaddy on July 01, 2025, 03:58:55 pmQuote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 03:20:57 pmI've already added light mode and a JavaScript-free version. What else do you think is needed to make this new website as suitable and accessible as possible for everyone? Completely write it in fpc standard libraries? Pure Pascal? Eat your own dog food? My idea is to have a place to centralize the creations and libraries available for Pascal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-07-01 14:34 That I can accommodate: I can give you a subdomain of my server: A real server, incl certificate, that is only used for such things. It is currently down, but I can do a "Lazarus" for it...(hardware is running) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-01 14:39 Yes, we could do that. I don't have a server of my own, so I thought about retrieving the information from a Git server. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-07-01 14:42 It will probably go down to a weekend job. but keep in touch in private. I am already busy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-01 14:54 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 03:20:57 pmI've already added light mode and a JavaScript-free version. Noted, and cool / thanks. QuoteWhat else do you think is needed to make this new website as suitable and accessible as possible for everyone? The desire of the FPC team to represent themself and their work in a different way? And if/once the desire is there, an outline how such representation should work. And of course with that, the time to deal with it (even if they don't have to do the work). Design is also very subjective. That needs to be respected. How would you feel, if you walk down the street, and someone steps up to you out of the blue and tells you how you should cloth yourself in future to maximize the success in your life? As I said, I am not FPC team. The Lazarus website has undergone exactly that process. It was contributed. By someone with more skills than we have ourself in the team. It still took a massive amount of time from our site too. So it isn't something we would do "once a year". Hence staying on the "latest modern" is not an option. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-01 17:28 I'm not imposing my vision; I created a website separate from your project. Staying at the forefront of technology doesn't mean redesigning a website every year. However, it's been almost 25 years since the official Free Pascal website received a commit on Gitlab. If that's okay with you, then good for you. I'm not forcing you to visit my website, and I don't intend to replace the official one. Whether you need a new website or not, I will continue my project, as I've already stated. You're free to choose whichever platform you prefer; I'm not forcing or replacing anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-01 18:22 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 07:28:45 pmI'm not imposing my vision; I created a website separate from your project. Sorry, seems we misunderstood each other. In my previous answer the part I quoted from you contained "suitable and accessible as possible for everyone" => I thought that to be a hint, asking for acceptance by the team. Now I see that it was not. For all else, I had originally assumed that - as you wrote now - this was solely to show your vision, and get comments. (Of course with the option that the team can comment on it too, but "option"). Btw, there is a similar alternative page for Lazarus https://www.getlazarus.org/ (3rd party). And as for additional representation, IMHO that is great. - A 3rd party driven webpage is good advertisement - People bringing the product to social media too. - Any other form of "publishing"... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-02 01:42 Quote from: Joanna on July 02, 2025, 02:41:19 aminstead trying to mess up our Perfectly good website And get us bickering about it. Your definition of "perfectly good" is far from perfect. Let's look at an example, which is the first thing a visitor to the web site sees: QuoteOverview Free Pascal is a mature, versatile, open source Pascal compiler. It can target many processor architectures: Intel x86 (16 and 32 bit), AMD64/x86-64, PowerPC, PowerPC64, SPARC, SPARC64, ARM, AArch64, MIPS, Motorola 68k, AVR, and the JVM. Supported operating systems include Windows (16/32/64 bit, CE, and native NT), Linux, Mac OS X/iOS/iPhoneSimulator/Darwin, FreeBSD and other BSD flavors, DOS (16 bit, or 32 bit DPMI), OS/2, AIX, Android, Haiku, Nintendo GBA/DS/Wii, AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS, Atari TOS, and various embedded platforms. Additionally, support for RISC-V (32/64), Xtensa, and Z80 architectures, and for the LLVM compiler infrastructure is available in the development version. Additionally, the Free Pascal team maintains a transpiler for pascal to Javascript called pas2js. A loooooooong run on sentence that _attempts_ to describe FPC's capabilities. Someone interested in determining whether or not FPC supports a particular platform has to "chew" this stuff until the part of interest is reached. Some sort of table would make it much easier and faster for an interested individual to determine if his/her platform of interest is supported. That's followed by the "Latest news", the first line of it dates back to January 2024... that's really fresh news! Those "fresh news" take precedence over information such as the current version and requirements.  Of course, that's much less interesting than multi-year old news and, the reason that current version and requirements should not be immediately visible.    There is plenty of room to improve that, in your opinion, "perfectly good" web site. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-02 05:24 Quote from: Joanna on July 02, 2025, 02:41:19 amQuote from: CM630 on June 30, 2025, 08:17:36 amQuote from: Wilrakov on June 29, 2025, 10:25:59 pm... https://freepascal.vercel.app ... IMHO, this is too minimalistic, even for me. And too dark. And needs some screenshots. What puzzles me in the current website is that when I click the screenshots, they do not open in a bigger size in a front layer, so I can switch between them, but a new webpage gets open instead. Quote from: Joanna on June 29, 2025, 11:02:09 pmI like the website the way it is. What gives random people who don’t use pascal the right to demand that the website be changed. I see nothing wrong with someone willing and trying to contribute to Lazarus. if he wants to contribute to Lazarus  he can write some pascal code instead trying to mess up our Perfectly good website And get us bickering about it. I seriously doubt that he knows any pascal at all, Look at his posting history. The only thing wrong with this site is it’s impossible to ignore people... It's true, I haven't posted anything else on this forum, nor have I shared much code on Github. And the reason for that is quite simple: I'm 14 years old. But I assure you, I know how to code in Pascal. I discovered it with an old book my father wrote about the Turbo Pascal compiler, and I quickly got into using FPC. For me, it was a simpler language than C, but more advanced than Python. I developed a video game in Pascal, but unfortunately, I no longer have the corresponding files. Once again, you're making assumptions without knowing. But hey, if you just want to rage like you're doing now, tell me clearly to stop posting on this forum. I would have liked to contribute directly to FPC, but I don't have the skills to touch its source code, which is normal at 14, I think. So I was just trying to help out in any way I could those who allowed me to have many happy hours of coding. And your current site isn't mobile-friendly (the Free Pascal site, not the Lazarus site). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-02 05:28 Quote from: 440bx on July 02, 2025, 03:42:56 amQuote from: Joanna on July 02, 2025, 02:41:19 aminstead trying to mess up our Perfectly good website And get us bickering about it. Your definition of "perfectly good" is far from perfect. Let's look at an example, which is the first thing a visitor to the web site sees: QuoteOverview Free Pascal is a mature, versatile, open source Pascal compiler. It can target many processor architectures: Intel x86 (16 and 32 bit), AMD64/x86-64, PowerPC, PowerPC64, SPARC, SPARC64, ARM, AArch64, MIPS, Motorola 68k, AVR, and the JVM. Supported operating systems include Windows (16/32/64 bit, CE, and native NT), Linux, Mac OS X/iOS/iPhoneSimulator/Darwin, FreeBSD and other BSD flavors, DOS (16 bit, or 32 bit DPMI), OS/2, AIX, Android, Haiku, Nintendo GBA/DS/Wii, AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS, Atari TOS, and various embedded platforms. Additionally, support for RISC-V (32/64), Xtensa, and Z80 architectures, and for the LLVM compiler infrastructure is available in the development version. Additionally, the Free Pascal team maintains a transpiler for pascal to Javascript called pas2js. A loooooooong run on sentence that _attempts_ to describe FPC's capabilities. Someone interested in determining whether or not FPC supports a particular platform has to "chew" this stuff until the part of interest is reached. Some sort of table would make it much easier and faster for an interested individual to determine if his/her platform of interest is supported. That's followed by the "Latest news", the first line of it dates back to January 2024... that's really fresh news! Those "fresh news" take precedence over information such as the current version and requirements.  Of course, that's much less interesting than multi-year old news and, the reason that current version and requirements should not be immediately visible.    There is plenty of room to improve that, in your opinion, "perfectly good" web site. Thank you for all your positive responses; you were the only person to fully support the initiative. But hey, I may have addressed a community that was too conservative. I promise not to reply to future posts; I don't think it'll be helpful to anyone. Thanks to everyone else, even if some remain convinced that I don't code in Pascal. If that were truly the case, I would never know about this forum. Pascal is dying before your eyes, and that's undeniable. Even Cobol is living better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-02 05:48 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 02, 2025, 07:28:45 amThank you for all your positive responses; you were the only person to fully support the initiative. I assure you, I am/was far from the only one to welcome your initiative. Every individual has a way of presenting their opinion which can sometimes be seen as harsh criticism when in reality it isn't meant to be.  I suggest you push forward with your idea of making the Free Pascal landing page better.  It will be good experience for you and, it will be a welcome improvement over the current page. There is one very critical aspect in reaching your goal, that is, you absolutely need the opinions of those who _decide_ what the page is going to be.  IOW, it doesn't matter if I, or anyone else here, thinks you've come up with the best possible page, if your design isn't welcomed/approved by those in charge of that page, it's all for nothing.  After typing this, I wish I had a suggestion as to how to get the attention of those whose attention really matters but, I don't.  Hopefully, someone else here can point you in the right direction. Personally, I'd really like to see that page improved.  There is _plenty_ of room there for improvement and, like other members, it will be a pleasure to contribute to your efforts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-02 15:16 @Joanna Frankly, you've thoroughly discouraged me. Feel free to disagree if you wish. I'm going to continue my own work, detach myself from Free Pascal, and try to offer a solid alternative based on a welcoming and slightly less conservative community. Please do not reply to this message again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-07-02 17:04 On behalf of Joanna,.......... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2025-07-02 18:11 Maybe we should use a Pascal passport, provided and maintained by Johanna, only after exams and proof of knowledge will you be allowed to use this forum. Wilrakov shows interest and enthousiasm but alas he is one more user who gets scared away by a overly critical Johanna. Please stop this and be glad someone is enthousiastic and offer us his time to help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-02 18:22 Quote from: Joanna on July 02, 2025, 07:22:30 pmI really was hoping he would rewrite the website using pascal. I guess he doesn’t like pascal very much does he... You can doubt me too. I would (if I would at all) still do webpages in Html, CSS, and if needed JS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- bytebites · 2025-07-02 19:21 Quote from: Joanna on July 02, 2025, 07:22:30 pmQuote from: Thaddy on July 02, 2025, 07:04:49 pmOn behalf of Joanna,.......... isn’t it amazing how easy it is for people who don’t use fpc to make a new account to get us fighting amongst ourselves... Nobody else is fighting but you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Warfley · 2025-07-02 22:38 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 01, 2025, 09:42:03 amWell, the new site doesn't seem to please you, so forget it if you want. The goal was never to replace the old one; in fact, the one I developed is dependent on yours. I don't intend to remove it from the internet, but if you don't like it, there's no point repeating it over and over again. Thanks anyway for all your replies. I did not want to discourage you, I like the idea of re envisioning how this can be presented. I just think that this version isn't really good at it, but also gave very concrete suggestions to fix it: 1. use the FPC logo, it already exists 2. use the FPC color scheme, there exists one for the current website freepascal.org (violet), one for lazarus (blue white) or you could create a new one from the logo 3. move the code examples to the top and make them more concise (the classes example.is too big) 4. add links to the doc and getting started Additionally, maybe reconsider the font. I don't know if tjere already is an "official" font for the logo, but having it in the same font as the rest of the website looks odd. Make the name and logo stand out 3. use ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fibonacci · 2025-07-02 23:08 Quote from: Joanna on July 03, 2025, 12:43:19 amMartin I’m sorry to hear that pascal is not your choice for websites. Any reasons why? Your love for Pascal is real Always pick the right tools for the job. I honestly cant imagine someone consciously deciding to build a proper website entirely in Pascal. Like... with pas2js and TForms and components? That sounds straight up absurd. Quote from: Joanna on July 03, 2025, 12:43:19 amI actually use pascal as my only language Having Pascal as your only language severely limits you. Working with bindings or integrating modern tech becomes unnecessarily difficult. To me, a sane web stack is HTML + CSS (I like SCSS - nested CSS) + JS on the frontend, and PHP on the backend. Depending on the project, Node.js might even be a better option - so JS as a backend. The kind of site OP made thats like a 15 minute task with that setup. Trying to do that in Pascal? Feels like days of pain and frustration. Maybe also serve it with a Pascal-written web server instead of nginx or Apache? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2025-07-03 09:38 QuoteDon’t worry Wilrakov is not going away. He will be back soon with a new account. The people who aren’t coming back are the people scared away by the fact that people attack me here. Congratulations you value random pranksters over real pascal enthusiasts. My god, when will you stop behaving as if you are the moderator of this forum! You are just a forum user (like me). Give people respect and a chance to show their value. But then you probably think i'm an imposter too. 🫢 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-03 10:42 Quote from: Joanna on July 03, 2025, 12:43:19 amfor someone who is always a stickler for being on topic I find it hypocritical that you’re fine with this off topic thread that has nothing to do with pascal development placed in here. If anything it belongs in suggestions. Other than questioning if this is in the correct sub-board => this thread is very much on topic (for the forum). If the sub-board is your concern, then your statement seems an over reaction to me. Otherwise ... makes no sense. QuoteAnyone can pretend to be enthusiastic about something and then run away when questioned it’s not hard. He did do the work. He showed he cared. I have no idea what you are on about. QuoteMartin I’m sorry to hear that pascal is not your choice for websites. Any reasons why? Fibonacci explained it well. There are reasons for special cases where pas2js may be helpful. But those are special cases. E.g., when/if one has already a huge Pascal code base, that requires functionality needed server side. And when the web-page just needs to be a minimum functional frontend, and one can re-use code that already exists for other frontends. E.g. I would do stuff like this for some company internal admin page. Design may not matter much, just access to the data and functions. More important to keep it in sync with desktop tools that perform the same function (and those exist and are Pascal). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-07-03 12:32 Quote from: Fibonacci on July 03, 2025, 01:08:28 amHaving Pascal as your only language severely limits you. Working with bindings or integrating modern tech becomes unnecessarily difficult. Modern web development quite often happens in languages that compile to javascript or webassembly to escape javascript's problems. I don't understand why that would be any different for pas2js or the FPC webassembly target. QuoteTo me, a sane web stack is HTML + CSS (I like SCSS - nested CSS) + JS on the frontend, and PHP on the backend. Depending on the project, Node.js might even be a better option - so JS as a backend. Originally we kept the FPC pages static because a release would sometimes be turn up on Slashdot or Heise and wreck the site, download pages prioritised sf.net for the same reason. Nowadays with the onset of AI scrapers there are new challenges. It would be advisable to keep the serverside CPU usage to a minimum. Both for uptimes and for cost purposes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2025-07-03 12:50 QuoteJan Roza I remember you were repeatedly growling at people for having a “cozy chat because apparently you find friendly conversations offensive. Complete nonsense. I will no longer react on Johanna's replies as she is only turning this forum into a lot of bad discussions that have nothing to do with the original subject. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Handoko · 2025-07-03 14:49 Quote from: Joanna on July 03, 2025, 02:35:35 pmQuote My god, when will you stop behaving as if you are the moderator of this forum! Jan Roza I remember you were repeatedly growling at people for having a “cozy chat because apparently you find friendly conversations offensive.  Please don't accuse people without proof. JanRoza is a legit Pascal programmer, he is not only active in this forum he also can be found in other Pascal forum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2025-07-03 16:56 QuotePlease don't accuse people without proof. JanRoza is a legit Pascal programmer, he is not only active in this forum he also can be found in other Pascal forum. Thank you Handoko! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-03 19:34 I initially told you that I would no longer post on this forum. I wanted to, but when I see what's happening, I feel compelled to react. My opinion on all this is that Joanna is a passionate fan of Pascal programming. This isn't a bad thing in itself, as long as it doesn't affect other users. While I certainly dislike Joanna for all her unfounded criticism and her total lack of empathy, it's still not worth the small wave of hatred she's now receiving. Because yes, even "only" 5 or 10 malicious posts can be touching or hurtful. And as for the website, I'm not giving up anything; I'll just do it outside of your community in order to stick to the values ​​I'd like to share. I'm also going to create a forum/chat room similar to a Discord server, but directly in the terminal, and in a language I'm not familiar with, according to someone whose name I won't mention: Pascal. I promise to attract new users to Free Pascal, whether with you or without you. Please know that I won't give up until this language is fully alive. Thank you all for your feedback; all criticism has helped me, even the unfounded and completely false ones. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2025-07-03 19:49 Quote from: Joanna on July 02, 2025, 02:41:19 amif he wants to contribute to Lazarus  he can write some pascal ... Show us your code. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-03 19:55 I'll show you the code, don't worry. I'm first working on a library to create pretty and sophisticated Text User Interfaces, similar to Ratatui in Rust. So I'll share this library with you first, and then I'll code a functional system using simple sockets to send and receive messages almost instantly, directly in the terminal for those who want it. I'll also implement it on a website after that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PascalDragon · 2025-07-03 20:05 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 03, 2025, 09:55:36 pmI'll show you the code, don't worry. I'm first working on a library to create pretty and sophisticated Text User Interfaces, similar to Ratatui in Rust. Fred vS quoted Joanna, not you. And please pay special attention to marcov's message as he's one of the people who maintains the current website. The point with as less resource usage on the server due to AI scraping or publicity is important. Our infrastructure isn't the beefiest and we don't intend to use a CDN. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-04 01:00 Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 01:51:40 amAll the sensitive people are gone which is unfortunate. if that premise is correct, your presence here proves you're insensitive. Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 01:51:40 amAs for showing code I have showed code many times both here and in the chat support. I will not be showing my code here anymore however because if I do, toxic people Will come to my thread for the sole purpose of insulting me about my coding style. I don’t need to put up with that sort of nonsense. Your definition of "insult" seems to be anyone who has a different opinion than yours.  How simple and convenient. That was fun. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-04 02:11 Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 03:43:51 am@440 that is correct. I enjoy arguing as much as you do which is why we are both still here. I find your reason for being here a bit peculiar but, I'll take your word for it, that you are here because you enjoy arguing. Myself, that's not why I am here and, my impression is that you enjoy arguing a whole heck of a lot more than I do. Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 03:43:51 amLet me ask you this as an example of expressing opinion. .. would it be ok for someone to come up to you unsolicited and say “I don’t like ugly women” and point at your wife ? He would just be expressing his opinion. Considering that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, from his viewpoint he might very well be absolutely right. Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 03:43:51 amEveryone has a right to express their opinion anywhere anytime right? Everyone has the right to express their opinion, that does NOT mean that they are doing it at the right time and the right place.  Those are very different things.  Let me drive the point home, everyone has the rigth to take a leak but, not everyone has the right to take a leak in your living room anytime they want.  IOW, you made invalid implications. Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 03:43:51 amWhere I’m from it’s called being disrespectful. Possibly but, my impression would be that I am dealing with someone who has difficulty grasping the obvious.  It's not unusual to run into individuals like that.  They tend to draw conclusions a bit too quickly. BTW, please don't confuse exposing simple facts with arguing.  I am not arguing with you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fibonacci · 2025-07-04 02:13 Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 03:43:51 amLet me ask you this as an example of expressing opinion. .. would it be ok for someone to come up to you unsolicited and say “I don’t like ugly women” and point at your wife ? He would just be expressing his opinion. Everyone has a right to express their opinion anywhere anytime right? Where I’m from it’s called being disrespectful. If its truly someone "come up to you unsolicited" then yes, I'd consider that kind of comment an insult. But if someone said it during, say, a casting call for a model or actress, I'd see it as fair (though harsh) feedback. Back to FPC. Let me tell you: I dont like your coding style - ALL CAPS everywhere. I find it visually unappealing, to simply put: your coding style is ugly. I think its much more difficult to read, to maintain, and it just looks ugly. I try to write code that not only performs well, but also looks clean, structured, properly indented, and consistent. The opposite of what you posted here. Did I insult you? Am I toxic? This is my opinion, and in my view, it falls well within the scope of what this forum is for. And I believe I have the right to share it. Do you disagree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Handoko · 2025-07-04 02:53 Me too, don't like all caps coding style. It's not about personal preference but it's just bad. It has been studied and scientifically proven to be bad: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps#Readability Quote from: Joanna on July 04, 2025, 03:43:51 amI enjoy arguing ... I prefer not to argue, but doing research, fact and data. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-04 07:22 I didn't know... Personally, I've always written reserved words in capital letters when coding in Pascal. I used lowercase for the rest, of course. I'm going to change my coding style to all lowercase. I thought it would improve readability because you can easily see a certain hierarchy. Thanks for this tip! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2025-07-04 07:31 Hi Wilrakov QuoteI'm going to change my coding style to all lowercase. Actually most of us use a coding style called 'PascalCase', similar to 'camelCase', but not quite. Where the starting letter of a word is in upcase and the rest in lowercase, like this example: Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]window.onload = function(){var x1 = document.getElementById("main_content_section"); if (x1) { var x = document.getElementsByClassName("geshi");for (var i = 0; i procedure LoadAndParseTextfile(const AFilename: string);begin  ...end;Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-04 07:38 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 04, 2025, 09:22:25 amPersonally, I've always written reserved words in capital letters when coding in Pascal. I have on occasion capitalized INTERFACE, IMPLEMENTATION and USES. The reason I've done that it to make the boundaries between interface and implementation more obvious in a unit.  When I capitalized those, I've often capitalized UNIT as well but just for consistency.  Basically, only 4 keywords in the language get to be capitalized. Strangely, I really have a strong aversion to capitalized words and because of that, in spite of the fact that I believe capitalizing INTERFACE, IMPLEMENTATION, USES and UNIT does bring welcome contrast, I often don't do it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- eny · 2025-07-04 11:56 Quote from: JanRoza on July 03, 2025, 02:50:37 pmI will no longer react on Johanna's replies as she is only turning this forum into a lot of bad discussions that have nothing to do with the original subject.I love the blacklist feature on the forum (called Ignore List). Just appended new name ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JdeHaan · 2025-07-04 15:13 I use the official GNU Pascal coding style. https://www.gnu-pascal.de/h-gpcs-en.html See: 5.3 Formatting Your Source Code, and further paragraphs. It's a pleasure to read code that's written like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-04 15:49 I find this forum stirs up a lot of hate. It's true, there is a way to format your code, and this applies to almost all languages. But let people live, there's no point in being stubborn or criticizing a way of writing code. You're only spreading hate by doing this, which is clearly not necessary. We need to stop seeing evil everywhere and wanting to make everyone do things the same way, diversity is important in life. Stop trying to standardize developers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fibonacci · 2025-07-04 16:31 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 04, 2025, 05:49:37 pmdiversity is important in life. Stop trying to standardize developers. Really? I thought programming was precisely about standards. Standards are what make collaboration possible. They're the reason one developer can understand, maintain, or extend another's code. Without them, every project turns into a personal puzzle that only the original author can solve. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-04 16:35 You know, I basically have the same opinion. I just think that if Joanna doesn't want to comply with the standards and prefers to write code differently, let her do it. We shouldn't persist in trying to change her mind. Personally, I'm currently adapting my Pascal code so that it complies with the standards. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-04 23:27 Again Joanna, I'm a Pascal programmer. You insist on thinking otherwise, and I don't really understand the reason behind it. Finally, you complained about the hate you receive, but don't you think that you distribute this same hate? It's true, no one is going to join such a toxic community, especially if this person is told that they are incapable of coding in Pascal. Face the facts: no one would bother going to this forum without knowledge of Pascal. This forum is in a corner of the internet, a lost corner that almost no one knows about, no one is going to try to play a joke on you. If you don't believe in my programming skills, too bad for you. This community is toxic to you, Joanna, and you are toxic to them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-04 23:43 Quote from: Joanna on July 05, 2025, 01:00:24 amI didn’t know that there were “standards “ that had to be adhered to avoid being ridiculed when asking for help. There is nothing wrong with my coding style, there is something wrong with toxic people who feel the need to be rude and disrespectful. Therein lies the problem. The fact that someone states they don't like the look of uppercased Pascal, you take that as a personal insult and being ridiculed and the person being rude and disrespectful.  The fact is: _none_ of those things apply. Personally, I find uppercased Pascal downright ugly and, it looks like, I'm not the only one.  That's not an insult to you, it's a simple fact and, to be blunt, I could not careless about your coding style.  There is no reason why I should but, I still think uppercased Pascal looks ugly (actually, worse than ugly, downright horrible.) You take general comments personally.  It isn't about you.  As an example, I have expressed genuinely harsh criticism about the use of "then begin", "do begin" and generally " begin", i.e, "begin" not on its own line, because it literally violates the syntactic structure of the language.  That's not only my opinion, it's also a a fact and I stand by it in spite of the fact it is a very common practice among Pascal programmers.  The point ? ... simple: no one here is feeling insulted or ridiculed and making a big deal out of it.  I'll make two suggestions to you: 1. Don't take things so personally.  2. Give new forum members the benefit of the doubt.  IMO, you seem to conclude they are up to no good a bit too quickly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-07-05 00:20 Quote from: Joanna on July 05, 2025, 02:10:45 amThe fact that you go out of your way to go into a thread that had nothing to fo with coding style only for the purpose of insulting me is a problem. What are you talking about ??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-07-05 00:37 Quote from: Joanna on July 05, 2025, 01:00:24 am.... there is something wrong with toxic people who feel the need to be rude and disrespectful. But Joanna, are you sure you cannot see it ?  These toxic exchanges are most always started by you ?  You launch an attack, totally unprovoked, on someone you think is a "Pascal Pretender". Most observers assume its because you enjoy the toxicity, is that not the case ? (That is a genuine question.) QuoteWho would want to join a toxic community for an unpopular language? Exactly, you attack, accuse, insult new people here. Why ?  Do you feel threaten by new people ? Are you worried about being marginalized as more people join ?  We need new people ... QuoteTheir main objective is to start flame wars which once again has been successful. No, it appears your main objective is to start a flame war. Its you Joanna who trigger just about all the toxicity. Again, I ask why ? If you don't like a particular topic or even a particular person, just ignore that thread. Thats all you have to do, ignore it. For the record, here, in this thread discussing changes to the FPC website where some people offered constructive criticism you said - I like the website the way it is. What gives random people who don’t use pascal the right to demand that the website be changed. .....I seriously doubt that he knows any pascal at all,... ..... All sorts of non pascal users know about this forum and send their bots to scrape it at the expense of people who use pascal..... ..... i think that the only people who still use this forum are people who don’t mind flame wars. All the sensitive people are gone which is unfortunate. Come on Joanna, the world is not divided into those who are Pascal experts and those who are not. We see here some who are starting out, the fact that they join here is a positive sign. That some survive your attacks is amazing. Joanna, please, if you don't like whats in a thread, don't respond, its easy. I normally do that as soon as you get worked up but honestly, got sick of it here,now, and decided to respond. Hopefully, you can see my arguments, ignore the ones you hate and be a happier person. Your behavior does not just affect new people, it makes everyone feel uncomfortable. Please consider. Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Handoko · 2025-07-05 02:47 Quote from: Joanna on July 05, 2025, 03:58:01 amI’ve never seen a 14 year old interested in pascal ... The youngest I ever know is 12. I know it because I helped him in the forum then later he personally contacted me. He told me there was a school lesson about Pascal programming and he performed well, so the came to the forum to learn more. Quote from: Joanna on July 05, 2025, 03:58:01 amI understand that the the reality of “pascal pretenders” coming here If you think someone is suspicious, just report to moderators. You may have good intention but the way do you is bad, it does more harm than good. I ever publicly accusing someone, but later proved that I was wrong. I felt ashamed. Not only once but twice, I apologized but he didn't accept. You can dig my very old posts, if you want. Lesson learned. Now, I don't want to judge someone's intention, I will reply to their posts as long as they are valid programming questions. Please do not repeat my mistakes. If anyone found something suspicious, report to moderators. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Scoops · 2025-07-05 04:57 Hi, I come here because I like reading about pascal, which is the main content of the site, the underlying software is simple machines forum SMF which uses PHP, This doesnt change the contained content and i dont even think about the software used to host the site, Everyone has different tastes and some like dark themes etc, I dont care , but having a choice can effect if a user comes back or not. Someone proposing a change to the forum, may not achieve anything, as other people already decide the layout, but he is showing interrest in programming and and has produced a layout which most of us couldnt achieve because programming forum software is not our aim. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fibonacci · 2025-07-05 07:02 Joanna's doing a great job at community building, just not in the way she thinks. Look at us, united, fighting side by side for a good cause! Funny how a common "enemy" can bring people together like nothing else. Lol But seriously, just kidding. Joanna, if you see someone being toxic, just dont reply. Or if you really have to, skip that one post, or throw in a short sarcastic jab and move on - fight "them" (if they even exist) with their own weapon. Go ahead, ask questions. Just maybe consider tweaking your coding style. Help us help you. More readable code = faster and better answers. This is the last time I comment on Joanna as a person. Any future replies will be limited to helping with Pascal-related questions. It was fun, but Im out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-07-05 08:28 Can we get back to the normal discussion please? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-05 10:44 Well, basically, I just wanted to update the Free Pascal website. In the end, I unintentionally created hatred and set people against each other. I think it's still a useful discussion to clear up your differences, but we're getting further and further away from each other. Pascal users are dwindling in number, and what's more, we're arguing among ourselves. How can we evolve to bring this language to the top? Pascal deserves its place on the same level as C or Rust. However, over time, it's lost its way, and young new programmers aren't really discovering it anymore. Joanna, I know you doubt that I'm interested in Pascal at 14. I learned to program in Python at 10, and my father was very interested in computers when he was younger. I read an old book that taught me how to use Turbo Pascal, and I created my first Pascal programs around the age of 12. This language is clearly one of my favorites. And yet, yes, I haven't coded a lot with it; I've only done one real project with it: a video game in the terminal. Then I moved on to something else, it's true. But it stayed in my heart, and I regretted giving it up when I learned languages ​​in the same category as Pascal, like C. I personally use several programming languages ​​because I'm young and I think it'll make it easier for me to find work as an adult. But when I want to do systems programming or when I want to create an application in the terminal, I systematically turn to Pascal for its syntax and simplicity. I don't have the skills to directly help develop tools like FPC, but if I can help the community with something, I will. And I thought renovating the website was a good idea to help modernize the language a little. I may have been wrong, and if so, you have my sincere apologies. I think if Pascal isn't as popular as it was at a certain time, which I didn't even know about, it's because there's nothing to support the language. I mean, C, for example, is supported by Linux and operating system development. But Pascal doesn't seem to have a very specific domain. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything it excels in, except algorithms. You might say it's a general-purpose language, but then, all languages ​​are general-purpose in this case. I'm thinking about an area that would be interesting to develop so that Pascal could become truly useful. Perhaps web development would be where it could excel, by creating the right libraries and tools. I hope to hear your feedback, without any hatred. We need to work together to bring this language to light. I feel like I'm giving orders, and that's not what I want to do. I apologize if this message offends anyone on this forum in any way; that's absolutely not the message I want to convey. Wilrakov --- https://wilrakov.vercel.app(Javascript required). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-05 12:47 Joanna, I assure you that I love Pascal. Besides, if you've read my posts, you know that I'm currently working on a library to create beautiful interfaces in the terminal, directly in Pascal. I know that everything has changed since Turbo Pascal, I realized it quite quickly when I wanted to put into practice what I was learning. But yes, I'm not a genius programmer in Pascal, I admit it. It's not the language I've used the most. Your argument about the fact that if I were really interested in Pascal, I would have already asked for help on this forum is rather well found, but I can justify myself on that too. To tell the truth, I was on the Free Pascal site for the first time when I started this thread, because to install FPC, I used APT on Linux. When I have a problem, I often ask the AI. I know it's wrong, but hey, that's how I've always done it. Won't you give me just a little bit of a chance, considering I'm coding in Pascal? I understand your concerns, but you're mistaken about me, I can promise you that. I'll release my library, and then maybe you'll believe me... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-05 12:59 Quote from: Wilrakov on July 05, 2025, 12:44:11 pmWell, basically, I just wanted to update the Free Pascal website. In the end, I unintentionally created hatred and set people against each other. Don't worry. Some discussions come up over and over again. That has nothing to do with your topic, your work, or any of it. If any of your post (or related work) are ever outside of the scope of this forum, then an official forum moderator or admin will contacts you. And (unless you sell fake passports...), it will be most likely be a friendly explanation what is and what is not ok. Otherwise, any Pascal related topic (including non coding topics / infrastructure / media / publicity / ... ), and even many general Programming related topics are welcome on this forum.  (And I am stating this in my function as one of the forum Admins) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-05 13:15 And to add to my previous post: No one has to defend their interest in Pascal. Technically, it is not even a requirement. E.g. a person with no interest in Pascal of their own, can still post Pascal related information here, if it may be of interest to others. Also, I am (both personally and as Admin) sure that those involved in this thread, have a full interest in Pascal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-05 13:23 Quote from: Joanna on July 05, 2025, 03:13:28 pmWilrakov thats a lot of excuses and very little pascal discussion. Are you not interested in pascal discussion?  It looks like you’re advertising AI? maybe the people who create AI Need a new website  Joanna, you seem to keep trying to provoke me, for no reason at all. Yes, I apologize because I thought it was a good thing, but since you hold absolutely all human knowledge, you could surely explain to me how to live and how to react  . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2025-07-05 13:46 Hehehe, Good on you Wilrakov  Look at that, Joanna -- You're not the only one with teeth  Love your response Wilrakov  Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-05 13:59 ADMIN NOTE: Everyone, please, discontinue the personal "who is right about what" .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-07-05 17:20 I agree with you. I probably shouldn't have reacted to all her provocations, but after a while, it gets too much for me to ignore. Maybe it's a maturity issue due to my age or maybe it's just me who's the problem, I don't know. I've tried to stop the arguments several times, but Joanna just starts them again. You can block my account if you want, at least I'll be forced to stop responding. Personally, this long thread is making me sick of Pascal, because I can't help thinking about her when I'm coding in this language. Frankly, I don't know if I should continue my work in Pascal or if I should literally switch to C or a perhaps more modern language with a less aggressive and more welcoming community. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin_fr · 2025-07-05 18:03 It happens. It ends when a moderator kicks in. Since you were directly affected, I let your reply stand. All others, as I said: The topic is the website. Other/Further replies not regarding the website will be removed. And may have consequence for their authors, depending on severity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-09-08 17:48 Hello everyone, sorry for being a bit of a distraction. After careful consideration, I've decided to take the plunge and renovate the website. It's really close to my heart. I don't quite remember what needed improving, but I think these issues need to be addressed: Website accessible from LynxMulti-pageNo JavaScript Is that it? I'm thinking of starting development from scratch, so I'm very open to discussion and your requests to ensure the website remains in the spirit and DNA of Free Pascal and its community. Joanna, you're a champion of Pascal, and I find your cause truly... interesting. However, could you be a little more considerate? Oh, and I'm slowly getting back into coding in Pascal, so you might see I wasn't lying when you look at my Github ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Curt Carpenter · 2025-09-08 19:49 Given that I haven't been able to overcome the "enable cookies" problem on the current web site, the thought that it will be "renovated" fills me with dread ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-09-08 20:15 I'm not talking about the Lazarus website, which seems perfectly fine to me, and quite modern/functional. But https://freepascal.org needs a makeover in my opinion, at least adding responsiveness so that it can be accessed properly on a phone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Curt Carpenter · 2025-09-08 21:45 Ah -- OK.  Good ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-09 09:13 Serving static pages is GOOD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- silvercoder70 · 2025-09-09 12:16 My 2c worth - @Wilrakov, I applaud what you are doing—or trying to do. And perhaps a little story (and a true one)... If you ask a group of 10 people what to do with X, you’ll probably get 10 different answers. Not only that, you might make a few enemies along the way. Take a parish council, for example. The flooring needs replacing. For the last 20 years it’s been carpet, so naturally some insist it should stay carpet. But vinyl is cheaper and easier to clean. If you manage to get past that debate, then it becomes a question of style and color. And so it goes. Often it’s those who have been there the longest who push hardest to keep things the same. They know the routines, where everything is, and they don’t want disruption. So when someone new suggests a different arrangement, it can feel threatening. Change isn’t always welcome. I don’t know how much of this applies to Free Pascal and the website, but I suspect some of it might. There are definitely things I wish could be updated, though I don’t have the time myself. And it can also be subjective. Good luck to you. PS. On character case and reserved words, Jeff D like to use capitalization for reserved words. Not sure how that compares to what everyone else likes. But then, begin, Begin, BEGIN and bEGIN are all the same thing! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-09 12:27 I want a gray theme. Or Earle Grey. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-09-09 16:47 Quote from: Wilrakov on September 08, 2025, 07:48:51 pmHello everyone, sorry for being a bit of a distraction. After careful consideration, I've decided to take the plunge and renovate the website. It's really close to my heart. I don't quite remember what needed improving, but I think these issues need to be addressed: Website accessible from LynxMulti-pageNo JavaScript Is that it? I'm thinking of starting development from scratch, so I'm very open to discussion and your requests to ensure the website remains in the spirit and DNA of Free Pascal and its community. I'm not the main webmaster, but as former release manager I have done a lot of updating the site for each release till 3.2.2 Some hard requirements based on the feedback in this thread: Static pages, using the current template generator (see earlier messages in this thread)Javascript is allowed, but not having it should not be an inhibitor to use the site. The template generator has a few features: Primarily it combines the part of the page that doesn't change(like the top bar and the menu) with the per page contentIt handles the mirror system for the download page Then we get into taste, which is obviously more my personal opinion. I didn't like the extreme darkness of the earlier site. Toned down, fine, deep black, noThe already mentioned separate pages bit, I don't like all the scrollingThe information density per page is quite low, which together with all the scrolling doesn't help overview ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-09-09 18:30 I find the Python website to be well laid out, aesthetically pleasing and offering quick access to a fair amount of information without having to scroll (which is good.) Some information requires scrolling but, I think that's about inevitable when there is a lot of information to provide. I don't know if whatever standards are being used for the FPC website would allow something along the lines of the Python web site but, it is what I consider a nice, informative and practical design. my $0.02... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wilrakov · 2025-09-09 20:15 I've read your messages and I'm taking into account all the points you mentioned. @Thaddy, what do you mean by gray theme? @markov Well, I'm more or less familiar with your current system. However, I don't think it's the most suitable for the web. But I'll note this request, study how the template system works in detail, and update it. By the way, yes, JavaScript isn't banned, but I think it's pretty useless in this use case. Oh, and I added a light mode to my website quite a while ago... @440bx I'm going to look at (and study) the design of several programming sites, including Python. I'll pay attention to the points you highlight to best align with your idea. I need to find the right balance between aesthetics and functionality. Thank you all for your feedback! However, I must inform you that development will take slightly longer than I originally imagined, as I also need to update the Pascal code. PS: Would a package manager for Free Pascal be a waste? I mean, for later use, it could modernize the language. All we need to do is impose a library structure to be respected on the Git repository, and then on our side, we have a server that simply maps library name to URL and takes care of installing the library. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PascalDragon · 2025-09-11 18:42 Quote from: Wilrakov on September 09, 2025, 10:15:35 pmPS: Would a package manager for Free Pascal be a waste? I mean, for later use, it could modernize the language. All we need to do is impose a library structure to be respected on the Git repository, and then on our side, we have a server that simply maps library name to URL and takes care of installing the library. We already have a package manager for Free Pascal. Or at least that's a proof-of-concept based on fppkg. And for Lazarus there's the Online Package Manager. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- n7800 · 2025-09-20 22:09 Also: http://packages.lazarus-ide.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-09-21 14:31 Quote from: 440bx on September 09, 2025, 08:30:21 pmI find the Python website to be well laid out, aesthetically pleasing and offering quick access to a fair amount of information without having to scroll (which is good.) I don't see that. I even have to scroll just to see the "news" on the frontpage. Also it is a mess with a toplevel (python/pipy/jobs) menu bar, slightly lower a dropdown menu bar, and then another freight of links at the bottom. I know it is a common layout, but IMHO it suffers from trying to link too much from the primary page. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cdbc · 2025-09-21 14:55 Hi @marcov: +1 Regards Benny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-09-21 17:08 Quote from: marcov on September 21, 2025, 04:31:25 pmI don't see that. I even have to scroll just to see the "news" on the frontpage. Also it is a mess with a toplevel (python/pipy/jobs) menu bar, slightly lower a dropdown menu bar, and then another freight of links at the bottom. I know it is a common layout, but IMHO it suffers from trying to link too much from the primary page. I have no doubt there is room for improvement in the Python web page but, compared to the current Free Pascal webpage, it's way better. The current web page: The overview is a very long run-on sentence that has to be picked apart to determine if the compiler targets the platform the reader is interested in. The "latest news", which occupies about 80% of the page, starts with a 1 year old entry and is followed by one that is 3 years old.  Good thing that's the latest news otherwise, we'd be reading about Christopher Columbus there and, these "fresh news" are supposedly more important than the system requirements which are found way at the bottom of the page, not to mention the current version, a list of features etc but, that's obviously not as important was what happened in 2018, 2019, 2020, etc, etc.  I don't see how these news are more important to someone checking out Free Pascal than the features and the system requirements (among other things.) The python landing page may not be perfect but, it's quite an improvement over the current situation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-09-21 17:14 Quote from: 440bx on September 21, 2025, 07:08:09 pmThe overview is a very long run-on sentence that has to be picked apart to determine if the compiler targets the platform the reader is interested in. The "latest news", which occupies about 80% of the page, starts with a 1 year old entry and is followed by one that is 3 years old.  Both are content update issues, and have nothing to do with the layout of the site. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-09-21 17:49 Quote from: marcov on September 21, 2025, 07:14:02 pmBoth are content update issues, and have nothing to do with the layout of the site. I can agree with that but, as far as the layout, I think it's about as plain, unimaginative, unattractive and lacking in functionality as it gets.  Here is another point about the layout.  An attentive reader that takes the time to go through the "latest news" sees that FPC has not had an update in over 4 years.  Honestly, if I were an individual looking into Pascal and saw a compiler had not had a release in 4 years, not even for bug fixes, I'd likely conclude that I'm looking at a compiler that is dying.  This not a way to attract new people. I don't want anyone here to get me wrong, 1. I love Pascal, 2. I am extremely grateful for FPC's existence and 3. for the dedication of those who develop it but, I cannot allow those facts to be a reason to ignore some significant problems (the layout of the site and the no release in 4 years.) While I'm at it I want to express my gratitude for Lazarus existence too.  Particularly its debugger and facility to develop reasonably capable macros. Conclusion: I find very doubtful that the current Free Pascal website attracts newcomers, on the contrary, I suspect it may cause some potential users to look elsewhere. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-21 18:04 Quote from: 440bx on September 21, 2025, 07:49:18 pmConclusion: I find very doubtful that the current Free Pascal website attracts newcomers, on the contrary, I suspect it may cause some potential users to look elsewhere. Disagree. Shouty websites are not really my thing. Much better is quite and calm and as much as possible also static. To me a website that uses too much interactivity is a website that misses its purpose regarding its subject. It may be enough to update the css because the functionality is good enough. You can experiment with that with your browser's developer tools. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 440bx · 2025-09-21 18:16 Quote from: Thaddy on September 21, 2025, 08:04:58 pmDisagree. Shouty websites are not really my thing. Much better is quite and calm and as much as possible also static. To me a website that uses too much interactivity is a website that misses its purpose regarding its subject. It may be enough to update the css because the functionality is good enough. You can experiment with that with your browser's developer tools. I don't think I implied something "shouty". Again, while the Python website may not be perfect, it's got a reasonably good balance of features, information and visual appeal.  Not to mention that the language hasn't gone 4 years without an update. If anything one of the things that should be added to the current FPC website is that an update is soon to be released.  At least that would mitigate the impression that the language is "not vigorous".  THAT should probably be the first item in the "latest news". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PascalDragon · 2025-09-22 20:28 Quote from: 440bx on September 21, 2025, 08:16:21 pmIf anything one of the things that should be added to the current FPC website is that an update is soon to be released.  At least that would mitigate the impression that the language is "not vigorous".  THAT should probably be the first item in the "latest news". Well, we could ask users to test the RC1 there... 🤔 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2025-09-22 21:06 Quote from: PascalDragon on September 22, 2025, 10:28:03 pmWell, we could ask users to test the RC1 there... 🤔 Since the lapsed time, maybe a RC2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-23 14:00 Just rename it RC2 and then declare it final. I'd rather see focus on the newer features, the stable features, that are mostly stable in trunk. I know trunk is a head-ache, but then you can filter again. Bread and games. Things will calm down. Happens all the time...Play the psychological game... RC1 is good enough for a point release. The point is, by doing no point releases at all and so many really new features in trunk there is a discrepancy between the two and that needs a resolve. They are growing apart too fast, which is not usually a good management decision, although it can be from a technical point of view. I also appreciate point releases are boring. Just bite the bullit. Few people understand release management anyway and the ones that do, do not mind because they are on trunk. Give the children a cookie to celebrate. The adagium "when it's ready" is not always an option, although I agree with it. Suggest to name it "Pag Pots"  (A gardening pot containing seeds that want to flower at some point) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-09-23 23:59 Quote from: PascalDragon on September 22, 2025, 10:28:03 pmWell, we could ask users to test the RC1 there... 🤔 Test it ?  I have been using it routinely for a year. For my use (and my platforms) it works fine. Trouble is, my app is also distributed via Debian and they require building with only 'released' toolchain. But packages direct from my github site are all built with RC1, including all the Windows ones, all the MacOS ones. Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-24 14:13 Hear, hear, you can't keep asking us for years to test RC1. There may be very few issues but describe them and release 3.2.4. Even as a stop gap. Unless everything goes out of sync, that is...Then I agree with "it's ready when it's ready". The remarks about Debian are correct. There's even a risk we won't get in again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PascalDragon · 2025-09-25 19:09 Quote from: dbannon on September 24, 2025, 01:59:28 amQuote from: PascalDragon on September 22, 2025, 10:28:03 pmWell, we could ask users to test the RC1 there... 🤔 Test it ?  I have been using it routinely for a year. The RC1 exists since June of this year, so I doubt that you're using it for a year. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-09-26 00:18 Quote from: PascalDragon on September 25, 2025, 09:09:09 pmQuote from: dbannon on September 24, 2025, 01:59:28 amQuote from: PascalDragon on September 22, 2025, 10:28:03 pmWell, we could ask users to test the RC1 there... 🤔 Test it ?  I have been using it routinely for a year. The RC1 exists since June of this year, so I doubt that you're using it for a year. I am talking about the 3.2.4-branch, it has had one commit (relating to clang) in the last 366 days. Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- paweld · 2025-09-26 05:43 @PascalDragon - The files at https://downloads.freepascal.org/fpc/beta/3.2.4-rc1/ are from 8-12 months ago. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-26 15:55 Quote from: PascalDragon on September 25, 2025, 09:09:09 pmThe RC1 exists since June of this year, so I doubt that you're using it for a year. So there are multiple RC1's?  https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,56864.0.html thread. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-09-27 02:49 Putting aside the timing issue, PascalDragon's main thrust was about testing 3.2.4 and reporting the findings https://wiki.freepascal.org/Testers_3.2.4. Sadly, only five people have bothered to respond.  I am quite sure a lot more people than that have complained about its delayed release. Come on folks, its open source, needs more contributions. Davo ref https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,71555.0.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thaddy · 2025-09-27 12:37 Not quite true since there may be reports against 3.2.3 in the bug tracker too. The way of reporting is a bit, well, not quite obvious. I am running the RC1 occasionally on both Debian (bookworm and trixie) and Windows 10/11 on x86_64 and Arm/AARCH64 and did not encounter anything that I needed to report. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dbannon · 2025-09-28 00:43 Indeed Thaddy, bug reports are important. But reports of it working as expected are important too. And they belong, in this case, on that wiki page. Yes, I am also using 3.2.4 on Windows and MacOS to build my 30K lines app. I have not reported that on the wiki page because I have not gone through that formal process PascalDragon listed. But the fact is it works, and works as expected and should, IMHO, also be reported. And I will. Davo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PascalDragon · 2025-09-28 15:55 Quote from: paweld on September 26, 2025, 07:43:22 am@PascalDragon - The files at https://downloads.freepascal.org/fpc/beta/3.2.4-rc1/ are from 8-12 months ago. Quote from: Thaddy on September 26, 2025, 05:55:57 pmQuote from: PascalDragon on September 25, 2025, 09:09:09 pmThe RC1 exists since June of this year, so I doubt that you're using it for a year. So there are multiple RC1's?  https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,56864.0.html thread. It doesn't matter from when the files are, it matters from when the announcement was and fpk did that here on June 2025.