fpGUI x wxWidgets lazarus / 30-Other ---------------------------------------------------------------------- valdir.marcos · 2014-04-13 20:39 fpGUI is for Free Pascal the same as wxWidgets is to C++? http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ https://www.wxwidgets.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2014-04-14 07:27 Seems that wxwidgets is now more going into native controls: (from the site:) "wxWidgets gives applications a truly native look and feel because it uses the platform's native API rather than emulating the GUI. It's also extensive, free, open-source and mature" So no, the default Lazarus/LCL is more wxwidgets then philosophy wise, since it also uses native widgets as much as possible, while fpgui is more owner drawn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dieselnutjob · 2014-08-02 10:05 For me the big advantage of fpGUI is that I have customers who run Linux, and it means that I don't have to worry whether they have qt or gtk installed. It also turns out that in Windows that the resultant exe is smaller and I think uses less resources. Unfortunately I have had to maintain an LCL version for my Mac OSX customers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2014-08-02 10:09 Quote from: dieselnutjob on August 02, 2014, 12:05:32 pmFor me the big advantage of fpGUI is that I have customers who run Linux, and it means that I don't have to worry whether they have qt or gtk installed. I haven't seen a Linux distro that can't with one or two clicks install both of them. But binary distribution on Linux is hard, I admit that, but never really saw much advantage in fpgui with that. And fpgui has too many little usability issues. QuoteIt also turns out that in Windows that the resultant exe is smaller and I think uses less resources. Did you actually found cases where that was limiting ?  Half of the machines sold nowadays have way more than 4GB, which is already crazy amount of space for a win32 (even LCL) binary. Personally, when I still did ownerdrawn stuff, customers were always complaining about it not being a proper windows application. QuoteUnfortunately I have had to maintain an LCL version for my Mac OSX customers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- benohb · 2014-08-02 11:30 QuoteI haven't seen a Linux distro that can't with one or two clicks install both of them. But binary distribution on Linux is hard, I admit that, but never really saw muchadvantage in fpgui with that. And fpgui has too many little usability issues. GTK + QT there is no respect API and  binary compatible... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-02 12:17 QuoteAnd fpgui has too many little usability issues. Hum, could you give us some examples of that "many little usability issues" ? Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- korba812 · 2014-08-02 12:30 QuoteHum, could you give us some examples of that "many little usability issues" ?for example: http://sourceforge.net/p/fpgui/bugs/15/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-02 13:05 QuoteQuote     Hum, could you give us some examples of that "many little usability issues" ? for example: http://sourceforge.net/p/fpgui/bugs/15/ That was fixed 3 weeks ago, => https://github.com/graemeg/fpGUI/issues/12 Other example ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- korba812 · 2014-08-02 13:19 QuoteThat was fixed 3 weeks agoIt is not. Please check the sample project attached to issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2014-08-02 13:25 Quote from: Fred vS on August 02, 2014, 02:17:18 pmQuoteAnd fpgui has too many little usability issues.Hum, could you give us some examples of that "many little usability issues" ? A Windows application had a weird font, and didn't respect common keyboard navigation, and didn't follow theming. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-02 13:27 QuoteIt is not. Please check the sample project attached to issue. Ok and sorry so. PS: Im not sure that Graeme follows sf-bug issues. But im sure he will read and answer if you post it to https://github.com/graemeg/fpGUI/issues/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-02 13:36 QuoteA Windows application had a weird fontI do not understand, you may choose the font used so if you do not like the default one, choose a other... Quoteand didn't respect common keyboard navigationHum, could you explain better, i do not find any keyboard problem (keyboard fr, pt, es and en tested). Quoteand didn't follow theming.Are you taking about Windows theme ?  If yes, that is true but you may choose a fpGUI Windows-theme instead who will do the job... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2014-08-02 13:45 Quote from: Fred vS on August 02, 2014, 03:36:57 pmQuoteA Windows application had a weird fontI do not understand, you may choose the font used so if you do not like the default one, choose a other... It should take the default system font from the theme. QuoteQuoteand didn't respect common keyboard navigationHum, could you explain better, i do not find any keyboard problem (keyboard fr, pt. es and en tested). IIRC tabbing through the controls, shifttabbing through tabs of a pagecontrol etc. Not much worked as it should in a normal windows application, making it instantly recognizable as non native, and very annoying for a keyboard centric user such as me. QuoteQuoteand didn't follow theming.Are you taking about Windows theme ?  If yes, that is true but you may choose a fpGUI Windows-theme instead who will do the job... [/quote] Everything can be done with enough work, to the point that you are building your own widgetset and using the owner drawn one as a primitive. But that is the problem with ownerdrawn systems. Yes they are minimal, yes they have total control, but nothing comes for free, and except for the most popular ones, the finish is generally rough.  A user simply having a different theme from you already makes you want to run for the hills. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-02 21:09 QuoteYes they are minimal, yes they have total control, but nothing comes for free, and except for the most popular ones, the finish is generally rough.Hum, in my opinion, with total control you may do everything. For example, Dibo has created a fpGUI style who looks inside the system-config, retrieve the current colors used by the system-style (working for X11 and gdi) and apply it for each widget. QuoteIt should take the default system font from the theme.If it is possible for system-theme-color, it is for system-theme-fonts too.    QuoteIIRC tabbing through the controls, shifttabbing through tabs of a pagecontrol etc. Not much worked as it should in a normal windows application, making it instantly recognizable as non native, and very annoying for a keyboard centric user such as me. Have you send a bug report for that ? Sure that Graeme has the solution... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dieselnutjob · 2014-08-02 21:20 QuoteDid you actually found cases where that was limiting ?  Half of the machines sold nowadays have way more than 4GB, which is already crazy amount of space for a win32 (even LCL) binary. Yes. Many of my customers do not want to use a PC at all and keep asking for an iPad app.  When I tell them that they can use any old junk laptop off of ebay with Windows 2000 up it helps.  I had one ask me if I could support Windows 98 a few months back. I have customers with EEEPC 701s which are useful as they have an SSD so no moving parts.  An early 701 only has a 2G harddrive let alone 4G of RAM.  Some of them will be using really lean window managers and will not appreciate me forcing them to install Qt or GTK. Personally I develop on a Dell D630 as it is one of the more powerful laptops that still has a real RS232 port, which I need.  The USB adaptors really are not good enough for what I do. Also the program is downloaded over the Internet so the smaller it is the better.  I have customers in places with very poor Internet connections.  At some point I may have a security problem and need to force customers to update, I will not be popular if this happens when a customer is using their mobile phone as an Internet connection and just wants to get the job done. Smaller, faster, leaner, more backwards compatible, no dependencies on other libraries.  This is what I need and I think fpgui does the job.  I really appreciate those who made the effort to develop it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-02 21:35 QuoteSome of them will be using really lean window managers and will not appreciate me forcing them to install Qt or GTK. + 10 ( and for Qt you have to force them to install qt4pas too  ) QuoteAlso the program is downloaded over the Internet so the smaller it is the better.  I have customers in places with very poor Internet connections. + 10 (I work in countries with bad connections, with very old computers, how small the exe, how better...) A other very important point : no dependencies needed, no libraries missing or obsolete... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graeme · 2014-08-03 00:02 Quote from: dieselnutjob on August 02, 2014, 12:05:32 pmUnfortunately I have had to maintain an LCL version for my Mac OSX customers. fpGUI apps can be compiled for OSX - it uses the same X11 support as it does for Linux and FreeBSD. The X11 support come standard with OSX installs for many OS versions already. You might just want to create a prettier theme for OSX users - they are always a bit fussy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graeme · 2014-08-03 00:13 Quote from: dieselnutjob on August 02, 2014, 11:20:36 pmSmaller, faster, leaner, more backwards compatible, no dependencies on other libraries.  This is what I need and I think fpgui does the job.  I really appreciate those who made the effort to develop it. That was exactly my design goal! I'm very happy to hear fpGUI works for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graeme · 2014-08-03 00:22 Quote from: korba812 on August 02, 2014, 02:30:30 pmhttp://sourceforge.net/p/fpgui/bugs/15/ That is a developer incorrectly using TThread, painting outside the OnPaint event etc. Thus a developer issue, not a fpGUI one. I use fpGUI multi-threaded apps all the time, and have no such issue. On a side note:   It seems SourceForge doesn't notify me about bug reports.  I didn't even know about those four open issues. Github emails me as soon as a new issue or comment on an issue occurs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graeme · 2014-08-03 00:24 Quote from: Fred vS on August 02, 2014, 03:27:40 pmPS: Im not sure that Graeme follows sf-bug issues. It's not that I don't read them, it is simply that SF doesn't seem to notify me about them. I never even knew they exist. I'll address those open issues shortly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BigChimp · 2014-08-03 07:51 Can you perhaps close that sf issue tracker and redirect to the main one for clarity? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mse · 2014-08-03 08:32 Quote from: valdir.marcos on April 13, 2014, 10:39:31 pmfpGUI is for Free Pascal the same as wxWidgets is to C++? http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ https://www.wxwidgets.org/ I like to add MSEide+MSEgui to the list: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mseide-msegui/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- janvb · 2014-08-03 09:10 Dear santa ... 1. I need native looks as themes. Some users like OSX on Windows etc 2. I need a fully customizable look and feel. Most customers want company or product look and feel with stunning graphics these days. 3. We need to compete with web developers in graphics and performance. 4. In fact, why can't my desc-top app become a web if I want to. 5. I need a GUI that can use GPU's without me noticing. I have no use for GPU's that are idle and even rPI have GPU. 6. I would like to code in a standard like LCL and not know about these things. 7. It must be lightning fast on my rPI... I could continue ---------------------------------------------------------------------- korba812 · 2014-08-03 09:13 QuoteThus a developer issue, not a fpGUI one.Certainly is a fpGUI bug. Please check sample program before issuing judgments. P.S. I really like fpGUI. But it is not a remedy for all problems. I think that the toolkit should be chosen to the needs of of the project. Just as you choose a database engine for your project. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- airpas · 2014-08-03 09:56 Quote1. I need native looks as themes. Some users like OSX on Windows etc 2. I need a fully customizable look and feel. Most customers want company or product look and feel with stunning graphics these days. 3. We need to compete with web developers in graphics and performance. 4. In fact, why can't my desc-top app become a web if I want to. 5. I need a GUI that can use GPU's without me noticing. I have no use for GPU's that are idle and even rPI have GPU. 6. I would like to code in a standard like LCL and not know about these things. 7. It must be lightning fast on my rPI... don't forget its just an opensource framework maintaining by one person in his spare time ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BigChimp · 2014-08-03 10:11 Perhaps janvb is willing to contribute - you never know (And he did mention Santa so he's aware of what happens when you wish features in other people's software ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- janvb · 2014-08-03 11:33 Quote from: BigChimp on August 03, 2014, 12:11:26 pmPerhaps janvb is willing to contribute - you never know (And he did mention Santa so he's aware of what happens when you wish features in other people's software ) I need to think about that, but I will regardless contribute what I am working on now. I started learning FPC last week and it is to early for me to decide if I want to continue with FPC or not. At present I am just enjoying the hard work of others having fun ---------------------------------------------------------------------- janvb · 2014-08-03 11:44 Quote from: airpas on August 03, 2014, 11:56:20 amdon't forget its just an opensource framework maintaining by one person in his spare time fpGUI, wxWidgets or LCL? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BigChimp · 2014-08-03 11:44 fpGUI=>Graeme Geldenhuys. LCL=>multiple contributors (Lazarus team) wxWidgets=>no idea, probably multiple people, too ---------------------------------------------------------------------- janvb · 2014-08-03 12:53 Quote from: BigChimp on August 03, 2014, 01:44:47 pmfpGUI=>Graeme Geldenhuys. LCL=>multiple contributors (Lazarus team) wxWidgets=>no idea, probably multiple people, too wxWidgets (former wxWindows) was mostly Julian Smart in the old days, but it is a large community now. I think it is the 3rd largest cross platform GUI community in C++ as I assume GTK and Qt are larger. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Blaazen · 2014-08-03 13:25 Qt is not developed by community, it is owned and developed by company Digia from Finland. Digia has adopted Qt from Nokia so Qt didn't come to the clutches of M$. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- janvb · 2014-08-03 15:14 Quote from: Blaazen on August 03, 2014, 03:25:09 pmQt is not developed by community, it is owned and developed by company Digia from Finland. Digia has adopted Qt from Nokia so Qt didn't come to the clutches of M$. I still consider that an open source community. Qt is open source, they have a large user base and have always had contributions from outside Trolltech, Nokia and Digia. Also many of the senior Qt developers are still with Nokia (www.qt-project.org). Digia own the right to sell Qt under a commercial license, but that is not an uncommon business model. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2014-08-03 17:04 open source is not automatically community managed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dieselnutjob · 2014-08-03 19:47 Quote from: Graeme Geldenhuys on August 03, 2014, 02:02:55 amQuote from: dieselnutjob on August 02, 2014, 12:05:32 pmUnfortunately I have had to maintain an LCL version for my Mac OSX customers. fpGUI apps can be compiled for OSX - it uses the same X11 support as it does for Linux and FreeBSD. The X11 support come standard with OSX installs for many OS versions already. You might just want to create a prettier theme for OSX users - they are always a bit fussy. I can't guarantee that X11 is always there.  I think on newer Macs it's not there by default, so it's not idiot proof. I need idiot proof. Number one on my wish list would be a third addition to the GDI / X11 pair, and it would be something that would work on every Mac OSX including the old Power PC ones if such a thing is possible. I would want it to look exactly the same as it does with GDI / X11.  If programmers want a different look for Macs, well they can program it. I don't know much about Macs but maybe it could bypass Carbon / Cocoa and talk straight to Quartz 2D?  Would that work on a PowerPC? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-03 20:07 QuoteI can't guarantee that X11 is always there.  I think on newer Macs it's not there by default, so it's not idiot proof. I need idiot proof. => http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5293 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dieselnutjob · 2014-08-03 20:12 Quote from: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5293X11 is no longer included with OS X Am I missing something? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred vS · 2014-08-03 20:19 QuoteQuote from: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5293     X11 is no longer included with OS X Am I missing something? Quote..., but X11 server and client libraries for OS X are available from the XQuartz project: http://xquartz.macosforge.org. You should use the latest available version of XQuartz. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dieselnutjob · 2014-08-03 20:20 If I buy a brand new Mac is already there out of the box? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Graeme · 2015-02-28 02:14 Quote from: BigChimp on August 03, 2014, 01:44:47 pmfpGUI=>Graeme Geldenhuys. I'd just like to make a slight correction there - rather late than never.  I am indeed the original author of the current fpGUI project, but there are multiple contributors to fpGUI. From things like bug fixes, whole new widgets, widgets ported from VCL to fpGUI, a complete PDF report engine, a complete internal redesign to window-less widgets  etc. All things contributed by others.