Write Once Compile Nowhere! lazarus / 16-Databases ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmikehicks · 2010-04-05 02:12 I'm really getting sick of lazarus and all the free (i.e., worthless) components out there. I understand that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into porting things over to lazarus, but please don't throw it out there IF IT DOESN'T WORK. The whole promise of lazarus is multiplatform, but everybody seems to forget that when putting out components. It's supposed to be an easy process, just write your code on one machine and when you're happy with it, just transfer the code to the other OS and recompile it again. Other than :   showmessage('hello world');  for a program, absolutely nothing works on more than one platform. ZEOS has a wonderful set of database components that I used to put together a rather lengthy program on win32, but it's not 'write once compile anywhere'   it's really 'WRITE ONCE, THEN SCREW WITH IT FOR WEEKS ON END TRYING TO EVER GET IT TO WORK ON ANY OTHER MACHINE ON THE PLANET.' Orpheus, is same animal, works fine on win32, but try putting IT on any other machine and even getting it to compile. Nothing in this whole environment works 'out of the box'. Did I miss somethng or is 64bit Linux a thing of the past and not to be dealt with. I haven't even approached the MAC problems yet, other than my first attempt at a simple 'hello world' which worked until i put in a calendar dialog. This is never going to fly at this rate. I'm ready to just give up on linux and mac cross platform, and then at that point why in hell would I ever mess with lazarus instead of just buying Delphi where almost everything does work 'out of the box' That's all for my rant tonight. I'm sure things will get better with time, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- fredycc · 2010-04-05 02:45 Hello mrmikehicks, for me the Lazarus is a great project, I have developed app, for windows, opensuse and leopard with database & windows mobile. Zeos is a good set of component I use it for ms sql server 2005 and firebird 2.1.3 (blob data), I have written .dll & .so (udf) for firebird with laz, now I can install firebird server for windows and opensuse with the "same" udf with any problem; but you need investigate, ask to the forum, test -> time. If you don't have enough money like me you can use some virtualization software. The last project for me was try to send a sms with lazarus i can do it just windows, but when I have time I'll test in linux why not. I'm agree with you when you say:  I'm sure things will get better with time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmikehicks · 2010-04-05 02:59 Thanks, nice to know something is working for someone at least.      Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- typo · 2010-04-05 03:04 Advertise a Bounty for someone to do it for you. http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Bounties ---------------------------------------------------------------------- dfeher · 2010-04-05 08:49 OK, buy Delphi and then show us the screenshots of your Delphi program running on any other platform than Win32. :-) OR You should use the bug report OR Just try to develop something for Lazarus instead of complaining about other people's work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- theo · 2010-04-05 08:57 Quote from: mrmikehicks on April 05, 2010, 04:12:01 amI'm ready to just give up on linux and mac cross platform, and then at that point why in hell would I ever mess with lazarus instead of just buying Delphi where almost everything does work 'out of the box' If you need windows only and if you are willing to pay then buy Delphi. If you would like to continue using Lazarus, then make bug reports or fix the bugs and contribute to the development. Ranting does not help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JanRoza · 2010-04-05 11:58 I think that just hollering "Nothing works" is blaming others for your own errors as I use Lazarus for some two years now and all installed components are working as expected. Of course every now and then I too think a component is faulty, but almost always it turns out that it's me and not the component that screwed things up. A better way to use this forum would be to just ask for help and give a detailed description of your problems. My experience is there is always a Lazarus guru somewhere who knows the answer and is willing to help, but being polite instead of just plain negative sometimes helps to get that support. Jan (a most times very satisfied Lazarus user) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LazaruX · 2010-04-05 11:59 If you only want to develop for Windows, then use Lazarus, cause you sayd above that most of the things work for you on Win32. If you want to develop of other platforms use Delp....ehm use ...ehm ,actually I think only Lazarus is there for you cause Delphi also only works on Windows. I can understand your frustration, but respect others work. Yesterday I had a look at Delphi's prices and I jumped from my chair, I got scared ;-) With my small cross patform experience, Lazarus worked fine on Windows and Linux. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Leledumbo · 2010-04-05 12:50 I've developed some commercial apps and many free open source apps with Lazarus and Free Pascal. So far, everything works well. It teaches me any coding issues that would appear when programming cross platform apps (layout, speed, incompatibilities, etc.). My other colleagues choose to code in Java for this, but they suffer from slow and huge runtime requirement, plus they don't get any experience of how things work from one system to other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmikehicks · 2010-04-05 15:08 Well, the sun is up again, another day, and I will be back at it, trying new things. I am sorry for my 4:00AM rant last night, and I do respect the work others have done. I have a house full of computers, MAC minis, PC's, and Linux. Unfortunately my only linux box atm is ubuntu 9.10 running on an AMD64, so just about nothing in the lazarus world works on that linux system. The app I'm currently trying to develop uses sqlite3 with blob fields for images. I've been thru firebird, thinking that would make for an easy distro, but then had cross platform problems immediately with fb. So I discovered sqlite, and then sqlite3 (for blobs), but as I have stated, as soon as I move away from win32, it all goes to hell. I will start using the bug reports, but I am discouraged that many of the posts and bug reports I have looked at on this forum are dated like me. I try to read and search the forum for answers before posting, but the information is 2 or 3 years old, and I think surely, THAT must have been fixed by now, and of course it hasn't been fixed yet. I am still hopeful because I have received answers to many questions that (att) seemed to be show stoppers for me, so I guess, this too will pass. Thanks to all of you again.      Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Troodon · 2010-04-05 15:25 Perhaps the issue here is that most Lazarus/FPC application/component developers only test their code on one platform and do not have the logistics to test-compile it on all platforms in order to fix any incompatibilities. When source code is released, the developers should clearly indicate what platforms the code has successfully compiled on. Something like: "Source code for Lazarus/FPC. Developed/tested on Win32 and Win64". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cpalx · 2010-04-05 15:35 I have a relly complex software made in lazarus and goes fine in Windows/Linux using Zeos+powerpdf+SNgradient+other components i just had problems in ubuntu 64bits (Zeos) and i solved using the las svn version. Come on Lazarus rocks its pretty, and great, even with some bugs it has ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmikehicks · 2010-04-05 17:27 cpalx, When did you get the svn shot and do you still have the svn snapshot url??  zeos working on ubuntu 64 bit is exactly what I need but can't seem to find right now. I am able to load zeos on the amd64, but as soon as I try to access an sqlite3 database, I get an error 'Access Violation'. No other clues as to what it is about. Do you have sqlite3 installed on you ubuntu 64 bit machine?? If so can you access sqlite3 using zeos??      Thanks      Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- stocki · 2010-04-05 17:51 I think one problem of Lazarus/FPC is, that it supports to many platforms and GUIs. There should be a concentration on 2 or 3 platforms/GUIs. First make the existing things bullet prof than add new features. I read recently an article about the market share : Win32 80%, Linux 10%, Mac 5%, ... the efforts should be distributed in that order. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- skalogryz · 2010-04-05 17:57 Quote from: stocki on April 05, 2010, 07:51:39 pmI read recently an article about the market share : Win32 80%, Linux 10%, Mac 5%, ... the efforts should be distributed in that order. but they're ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Troodon · 2010-04-05 18:27 Quote from: stocki on April 05, 2010, 07:51:39 pmI read recently an article about the market share : Win32 80%, Linux 10%, Mac 5%, ... the efforts should be distributed in that order. In terms of desktop market share I think it's more like: Windows 90 %; Mac OS X 8 %; Linux 2%. Of course, there are a lot more Linux servers than Linux desktops, mainly due to the recent industry switch from Unix to Linux. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- theo · 2010-04-05 19:37 Quote from: stocki on April 05, 2010, 07:51:39 pmWin32 80%, Linux 10%, Mac 5%, ... the efforts should be distributed in that order. Not very convincing. If you put only 10% of the effort in Linux and 5% in Mac, then you can forget about cross platform. The tool you're looking for with this logic is Delphi (100% Windows) ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2010-04-05 19:51 Quote from: stocki on April 05, 2010, 07:51:39 pmI think one problem of Lazarus/FPC is, that it supports to many platforms and GUIs. There should be a concentration on 2 or 3 platforms/GUIs. First make the existing things bullet prof than add new features. I read recently an article about the market share : Win32 80%, Linux 10%, Mac 5%, ... the efforts should be distributed in that order. It is a bit naieve to only consider it as one global markets. Some markets (most notably windows) are very estabilished and saturated with tools. Some other platforms are very shielded by their vendors (e.g. OS X, but in a different way also Linux due to every changing and badly documented apis) If you really want to go this way, you'll have to find out what FPC/Lazarus users make money with. And I bet that is mostly Linux server apps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc · 2010-04-05 22:24 Quote from: mrmikehicks on April 05, 2010, 05:08:27 pmWell, the sun is up again, another day, and I will be back at it, trying new things. I am sorry for my 4:00AM rant last night, and I do respect the work others have done. I have a house full of computers, MAC minis, PC's, and Linux. Unfortunately my only linux box atm is ubuntu 9.10 running on an AMD64, so just about nothing in the lazarus world works on that linux system. I bet lazarus itself would run on ubunto 9.10. So that at least one. Quote The app I'm currently trying to develop uses sqlite3 with blob fields for images. I've been thru firebird, thinking that would make for an easy distro, but then had cross platform problems immediately with fb. So I discovered sqlite, and then sqlite3 (for blobs), but as I have stated, as soon as I move away from win32, it all goes to hell. iirs in sqlite everythin is a string. I myself won't call it a database. What did you use to access it ? QuoteI will start using the bug reports, but I am discouraged that many of the posts and bug reports I have looked at on this forum are dated like me. I try to read and search the forum for answers before posting, but the information is 2 or 3 years old, and I think surely, THAT must have been fixed by now, and of course it hasn't been fixed yet. No of coarse not. When all ppl like you just tell us that it doesn't work, it won't get fixed. You know, we are not clairvoyant, so we don't know what it is, what you have tried, what code you used etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmikehicks · 2010-04-05 23:36 Marc, I have created a sample program that demonstrates the problem that I am having with sqlite3dataset. When trying to load blob data from the database into a TImage component, I get a jpeg error of some sort. I tared up the sample app that shows this but it is too large to put on this forum, so I put it on my local ftp server for anyone to download and try. I will try to post this sample app with some info as a bug report (don't even know how to do that yet, but I will figure it out.) That's one problem. A second problem, that I will also create bug report for is the zeos zconnection/zquery combo on ubuntu 9.10 amd64. As soon as I set the database (sqlite3) parameters and try to set the zconnection to true, I get an immediate 'access violation' with no other info. I tested this by creating a new program, dropping the zconnection, zquery and datasource components, on the form, then I put a couple of dbedit fields just see some database data. Nothing else in the program, but when I set connected to true on the zconnection, I get the 'access violation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- mrmikehicks · 2010-04-05 23:43 Re the market share, numbers be what they may, I know a few MAC users and when any new software comes along, they are all (all 5% of them I think) in a big hurry to get their hands on it, I don't want to ignore that group of people. I think there must be a difference in the number of MAC users, and the number of MAC users that buy MAC software, that the market numbers are not addressing. Even if its only 5%, that's still a lot of customers, if most of them are buying.      Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- cpalx · 2010-04-06 03:07 To use zeos in linux with 64 bits architecture, you must use zeos 7 (it is in alfa state) but i didnot have any problems yet. If you want the stable one you must use linux in 32bits. Remember Zeos is a component it not depends on just from Lazarus. For example Did you try to use OpenGL without 3D support?.... just think about it Lazarus rocks. ** I love/hate indy componets, does not work as espectect in Linux ---------------------------------------------------------------------- skalogryz · 2010-04-06 06:11 Quote from: mrmikehicks on April 06, 2010, 01:36:32 amMarc, I have created a sample program that demonstrates the problem that I am having with sqlite3dataset. When trying to load blob data from the database into a TImage component, I get a jpeg error of some sort.* What you need is to save the read blob data into a file and see if it is actually jpeg file. This would point where the bug happens, since in it can be in both jpeg reading and/or sqlite component. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc · 2010-04-06 08:12 Quote from: skalogryz on April 06, 2010, 08:11:11 amQuote from: mrmikehicks on April 06, 2010, 01:36:32 amMarc, I have created a sample program that demonstrates the problem that I am having with sqlite3dataset. When trying to load blob data from the database into a TImage component, I get a jpeg error of some sort.* What you need is to save the read blob data into a file and see if it is actually jpeg file. This would point where the bug happens, since in it can be in both jpeg reading and/or sqlite component. jpeg reading and writing should be ok since thats done for files too. It is indeed a test I would suggest too. I've seen some databases/database connections who "alter" the contents of blobs. (took us some time to figure out that bde+oracle skipped byte 2049 of a blob) Quote from: mrmikehicks on April 06, 2010, 01:36:32 amThat's one problem. A second problem, that I will also create bug report for is the zeos zconnection/zquery combo on ubuntu 9.10 amd64. As soon as I set the database (sqlite3) parameters and try to set the zconnection to true, I get an immediate 'access violation' with no other info. I tested this by creating a new program, dropping the zconnection, zquery and datasource components, on the form, then I put a couple of dbedit fields just see some database data. Nothing else in the program, but when I set connected to true on the zconnection, I get the 'access violation'. Zeos is a different project and not related to lazarus. I never tried it together with Lazarus (i'm using it professionally with delphi without probs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2010-04-06 11:28 Quote from: mrmikehicks on April 06, 2010, 01:43:02 amRe the market share, numbers be what they may, I know a few MAC users and when any new software comes along, they are all (all 5% of them I think) in a big hurry to get their hands on it, I don't want to ignore that group of people. I think there must be a difference in the number of MAC users, and the number of MAC users that buy MAC software, that the market numbers are not addressing. Even if its only 5%, that's still a lot of customers, if most of them are buying.    Wanting and being doable is two different points. The problem with Mac is - Selling shareware and other small apps to private persons generally involve less money, and the overhead per sale (sales channel, support etc) is _relatively_ high. - The mac crowd mostly insist on having apps with a perfect "Mac" feeling which makes selling multiplatform apps on Mac difficult. - The third problem is what I already said, the Mac crowd is spread out over several versions and the API is more in a state of flux than e.g. Windows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- vfclists · 2010-04-14 11:10 I don't think Lazarus is the problem. Communication is, and that means blogging, our own githubs, launchpads etc, and the like. The ability to see documented source quickly with just a few clicks in the browser. Lots of links to documented source. The precompiled component mindset from the Delphi world just isn't working here, given the fact of rapid changes in SVN. Source is the most important, and that means sources to  configurations, especially when it comes to installing components, building the IDE etc, and Redmine or something similar for SCM and project management. I often ran into unit not found issues when a simple Ctrl-Enter on the source file brings it up in the IDE, then I ask myself 'What is going on!!?? the file is right there!!' There should be more use of preconfigured VMs as well, as it looks (from my newbie end) that the time required to set up an environment will take more time than it takes to locate and fix the problem. With Linux this shouldn't be a problem, but Windows licensing which makes it nigh impossible to have ready distributed VMs doesn't help a twit. Microsoft could help by making easing licensing restrictions on VMs used for developing, which it does for Visual Studio, unsurprisingly. I do find it the Lazarus environment frustrating some times, but it works well. It is much more stable and reliable than I expected from a free development environment. Not having a centralized source for components such as ruby's rubyforge doesn't help. The look of the CSS on the wiki doesn't help, neither does that on this wiki. I find myself surprised at the quality of the stuff when I see how the community web sites look. Do Delphi/Freepascal users have an aversion to WordPress, Drupal, or many of the other tools out there? The FreePascal/Lazarus community is in need for Web 2.0 make over. Fluff matters. Announcements often do not contain links to demos and blogs. It comes down to blogs, blogs, blogs. The Developer Blog has had only one new article since the beginning of this year. No one would know how good Lazarus is from seeing that. Announcements could really do with a proper website. I also feel that perhaps Lazarus developers should focus more on the Linux environment then port to Windows, I think Windows is too well served by Delphi if the user is willing to pay. I find myself using Lazarus rather than Delphi because I suspect that if I get back into Delphi habit, I will find the the going so easy that I won't be tempted to contribute to Lazarus, and Lazarus is good. I think professional/commercial developers ought to blog more about their use of Lazarus. They may not be willing for commercial reasons but Lazarus does need that. My 2 euro cents. I could contribute more than 2, but not everyone would want to keep reading for that long. Quote from: mrmikehicks on April 05, 2010, 04:12:01 amI'm really getting sick of lazarus and all the free (i.e., worthless) components out there. I understand that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into porting things over to lazarus, but please don't throw it out there IF IT DOESN'T WORK. The whole promise of lazarus is multiplatform, but everybody seems to forget that when putting out components. It's supposed to be an easy process, just write your code on one machine and when you're happy with it, just transfer the code to the other OS and recompile it again. Other than :   showmessage('hello world');  for a program, absolutely nothing works on more than one platform. ZEOS has a wonderful set of database components that I used to put together a rather lengthy program on win32, but it's not 'write once compile anywhere'   it's really 'WRITE ONCE, THEN SCREW WITH IT FOR WEEKS ON END TRYING TO EVER GET IT TO WORK ON ANY OTHER MACHINE ON THE PLANET.' Orpheus, is same animal, works fine on win32, but try putting IT on any other machine and even getting it to compile. Nothing in this whole environment works 'out of the box'. Did I miss somethng or is 64bit Linux a thing of the past and not to be dealt with. I haven't even approached the MAC problems yet, other than my first attempt at a simple 'hello world' which worked until i put in a calendar dialog. This is never going to fly at this rate. I'm ready to just give up on linux and mac cross platform, and then at that point why in hell would I ever mess with lazarus instead of just buying Delphi where almost everything does work 'out of the box' That's all for my rant tonight. I'm sure things will get better with time, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc · 2010-04-14 20:36 Quote from: vfclists on April 14, 2010, 01:10:10 pmDo Delphi/Freepascal users have an aversion to WordPress, Drupal, or many of the other tools out there? The FreePascal/Lazarus community is in need for Web 2.0 make over. Fluff matters. Be my guest. Just a few months ago there was a lengthy discussion about this on the lazarus mailing list. How to restyle the site. What software should be used. Should we use Drupal/Joomla/Wordpress or should we write something ourselves to show the power of fps/lazarus. A few concepts were shown and then...... .... it was quiet. Nothing. History seems repeating, since that discussion happened last year, the year before that and before and before and.... So despite all promises and words what we should do... nothing... From the free time I have, I spend most in development of lazarus, read the forum and reading mail. Keeping a website running is just part of the job, but not the primary and ultimate goal. So we want something simple, easy to maintain. And be able to control the site when something happens. The current site does what it is supposed to do. Give ppl pointers, let ppl communicate and report bugs. Seen the growing amount of members, postings, mails and bugs, ppl seem to find their way. QuoteAnnouncements often do not contain links to demos and blogs. It comes down to blogs, blogs, blogs. The Developer Blog has had only one new article since the beginning of this year. No one would know how good Lazarus is from seeing that. Announcements could really do with a proper website. Who should write those ? I was often asked to write things on the lazarus blog while I was working on the graphic. But I can only do one thing at the time, either finish the things I'm working on or write some blog. I'm a devel, not a blogger. QuoteI also feel that perhaps Lazarus developers should focus more on the Linux environment then port to Windows, I think Windows is too well served by Delphi if the user is willing to pay. You forgot that lazarus made a big jump in users when we were able to develop for windows. And not everyone can afford delphi. (and another night not spend on finishing/fixing stuff) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wodzu · 2010-04-15 12:13 Quote from: Marc on April 14, 2010, 10:36:31 pmQuote from: vfclists on April 14, 2010, 01:10:10 pmDo Delphi/Freepascal users have an aversion to WordPress, Drupal, or many of the other tools out there? The FreePascal/Lazarus community is in need for Web 2.0 make over. Fluff matters. Be my guest. Just a few months ago there was a lengthy discussion about this on the lazarus mailing list. How to restyle the site. What software should be used. Should we use Drupal/Joomla/Wordpress or should we write something ourselves to show the power of fps/lazarus. A few concepts were shown and then...... .... it was quiet. Nothing. History seems repeating, since that discussion happened last year, the year before that and before and before and.... So despite all promises and words what we should do... nothing... Personally I love current design for the website. I can hardly  imagine something else here to be needed. Site gives me everything what I need. FPC site is the other story, but again it could be a matter of taste. But I find mailing list a way harder to communicate than this forum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- tatamata · 2010-04-15 17:52 Well, I think that effort should be taken to simplify Lazarus+FPC installation of various Linux distribution, because, currently it sucks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2010-04-15 19:07 Quote from: tatamata on April 15, 2010, 07:52:59 pmWell, I think that effort should be taken to simplify Lazarus+FPC installation of various Linux distribution, because, currently it sucks. Certainly true. Unfortunately, while a bit more manpower wouldn't hurt, it is mostly because of Linux distro policies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Troodon · 2010-04-15 19:12 Quote from: tatamata on April 15, 2010, 07:52:59 pmWell, I think that effort should be taken to simplify Lazarus+FPC installation of various Linux distribution, because, currently it sucks. Installation on Ubuntu and SLED (SuSE) are straightforward, using deb and rpm packages, respectivelly. These are the most popular Linux desktop distros anyway. There are too many Linux distributions to develop and test specific installation packages for all of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- vfclists · 2010-04-15 23:25 In a case like this the best thing to do would be to look up the source for building the package, download it and test it, then send in a patch or push it back to the repository. Quote from: tatamata on April 15, 2010, 07:52:59 pmWell, I think that effort should be taken to simplify Lazarus+FPC installation of various Linux distribution, because, currently it sucks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- alejol0 · 2010-04-16 02:07 Quote from: JanRoza on April 05, 2010, 01:58:19 pmI think that just hollering "Nothing works" is blaming others for your own errors as I use Lazarus for some two years now and all installed components are working as expected. Of course every now and then I too think a component is faulty, but almost always it turns out that it's me and not the component that screwed things up. A better way to use this forum would be to just ask for help and give a detailed description of your problems. My experience is there is always a Lazarus guru somewhere who knows the answer and is willing to help, but being polite instead of just plain negative sometimes helps to get that support. Jan (a most times very satisfied Lazarus user) I am in agree with mrmikehicks. I have put bugs in bugtracker, have posted in this forum, and nothing happens. The problem with ListView in Linux and Mac OS has years and nobody corrects it. For controls in Linux you do not have help here. The Lazarus installation in Linux sucks. Always a missing library, always a "not implemented" feature. Why the Lazarus team do not provide a simple executable installer for all Linux in x86 architecture, with *ALL* the stuff, like in Windows?  In Windows Lazarus components works. I think that Lazarus developers do not care about Linux programers. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- alejol0 · 2010-04-16 02:11 Quote from: dfeher on April 05, 2010, 10:49:01 amOK, buy Delphi and then show us the screenshots of your Delphi program running on any other platform than Win32. :-) OR You should use the bug report OR Just try to develop something for Lazarus instead of complaining about other people's work. It is difficult to make a build if the bricks are broken. And if the basic building blocks of lazarus do not work in Linux, is very little wath one can do. Lazarus is Windows driven, and partially works in Linux. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Troodon · 2010-04-16 15:36 Quote from: alejol0 on April 16, 2010, 04:07:41 amThe problem with ListView in Linux and Mac OS has years and nobody corrects it. For controls in Linux you do not have help here. The Lazarus installation in Linux sucks. Always a missing library, always a "not implemented" feature. Why the Lazarus team do not provide a simple executable installer for all Linux in x86 architecture, with *ALL* the stuff, like in Windows?  In Windows Lazarus components works. I think that Lazarus developers do not care about Linux programers. I understand your frustration. You have to consider a few facts though: - In terms of numbers, only around 5% of desktop users choose Mac OS X and it doesn't come cheap. They are mostly users, not developers. You will find Mac OS consumers mostly in the US and the EU and the majority of them are professionals working in graphics or multimedia design. - Also in terms of numbers, only 1-2% of desktop users choose Linux, mostly because it's free. There are hundreds of Linux distributions. Linux is not an OS, it is a collection of OSes. Linux is like a car: you generally cannot move parts from one car make/model to another. That is why, to develop an application for "Linux" it is better to focus on the most popular (and tested and supported) desktop distributions, i.e. Ubuntu and SLED. Note that I did not include OpenSUSE and Fedora on this list because they are by definition "bleeding edge" distros, that is, they are potentially unstable, which makes debugging applications even more complicated if not impossible. - Linux has this fenomenal feature called package management. What it does is, when you install a package it tells you if a dependency is missing and will get it for you. Despite that, many airheads will insist on installing Lazarus/FPC from source. Recompile all and everything. It is not surprizing that they will find missing development (but not necessarily runtime) libraries and such. There are "hunters" and there are "weapon makers". If you are a "hunter", that is, an application developer, then install Lazarus/FPC from the packages provided: debs for Ubuntu/Debian and rpms for SuSE/Fedora/whatever. There are also daily builds if you like living dangerously. But if you think you are a "weapon maker" and you really want to install from source then you are supposed to know what you are doing. - Whether we like it or not, Windows remains the largest software market and application development field. There is a reason why Delphi has been available for Windows only. I think Lazarus/FPC developers do care about Linux but they are realistic in setting their priorities and allocating resources. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- marcov · 2010-04-16 20:16 Lazarus always has been about Linux, the Linux port existed for years before the win32 widgetset came around. GTK2 is just limited and buggy. Note that as far as Linux is concerned, IMHO a difference should be made between packaging (for which the distributions are primarily reponsible), and the functionality (which IMHo is not that bad) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc · 2010-04-19 11:43 Quote from: marcov on April 16, 2010, 10:16:50 pmGTK2 is just limited and buggy. Its not gkt2, but our gtk2 widgetset. Due to limited manpower the gtk2 interface was derived from gtk1. gtk1 is very limited. The gtk1 widgetset was also the first implemented widgetset. While completing the lcl the implementation of the widgetset evolved. Which means with the current knowledge widgetsets as QT or Carbon/Coca are at the 3rd generation of implementation, while gtk2 got stuck at 2. There is simply to much code to convert to gen 3. (windows is btw also still at 2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Troodon · 2010-04-19 13:32 Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2010, 01:43:48 pmWhich means with the current knowledge widgetsets as QT or Carbon/Coca are at the 3rd generation of implementation, while gtk2 got stuck at 2. There is simply to much code to convert to gen 3. (windows is btw also still at 2) Thank you, that's interesting information. It suggests that using Qt across all platforms might be a benefit at this time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- alejol0 · 2010-04-19 14:43 Quote from: Troodon on April 16, 2010, 05:36:31 pm- Linux has this fenomenal feature called package management. What it does is, when you install a package it tells you if a dependency is missing and will get it for you. Despite that, many airheads will insist on installing Lazarus/FPC from source. Recompile all and everything. It is not surprizing that they will find missing development (but not necessarily runtime) libraries and such. There are "hunters" and there are "weapon makers". If you are a "hunter", that is, an application developer, then install Lazarus/FPC from the packages provided: debs for Ubuntu/Debian and rpms for SuSE/Fedora/whatever. There are also daily builds if you like living dangerously. But if you think you are a "weapon maker" and you really want to install from source then you are supposed to know what you are doing. Well, I am a simple user of Lazarus as a programming tool. In the past, I have worked with PDP11, VAX, DOS. And when Windows appears, I have thougt "this is the real way to do things". I do not understand why in XXI century we need to use cryptic commands to install anything. When I need to install Lazarus from scratch, this is because I have used Puppy Linux; nobody was making a simple installable version of Lazarus for Puppy, only recently you can get a .sfs that works. It is my ask for Lazarus developers: please, make REAL installers for Linux. And, please, make Lazarus updating simple, within the Lazarus IDE. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- jhmos · 2010-04-19 15:48 Quote from: alejol0 on April 19, 2010, 04:43:21 pmQuote from: Troodon on April 16, 2010, 05:36:31 pm- Linux has this fenomenal feature called package management. What it does is, when you install a package it tells you if a dependency is missing and will get it for you. Despite that, many airheads will insist on installing Lazarus/FPC from source. Recompile all and everything. It is not surprizing that they will find missing development (but not necessarily runtime) libraries and such. There are "hunters" and there are "weapon makers". If you are a "hunter", that is, an application developer, then install Lazarus/FPC from the packages provided: debs for Ubuntu/Debian and rpms for SuSE/Fedora/whatever. There are also daily builds if you like living dangerously. But if you think you are a "weapon maker" and you really want to install from source then you are supposed to know what you are doing. Well, I am a simple user of Lazarus as a programming tool. In the past, I have worked with PDP11, VAX, DOS. And when Windows appears, I have thougt "this is the real way to do things". I do not understand why in XXI century we need to use cryptic commands to install anything. When I need to install Lazarus from scratch, this is because I have used Puppy Linux; nobody was making a simple installable version of Lazarus for Puppy, only recently you can get a .sfs that works. It is my ask for Lazarus developers: please, make REAL installers for Linux. And, please, make Lazarus updating simple, within the Lazarus IDE. I think it might be asking too much for developers to compile and test packages for many more Linux distros than have already been provided. Puppy Linux is a rather cut down distro and perhaps not an ideal one if you want to avoid the command line. Lazarus does install cleanly under Ubuntu with official packages (other than IDE help, which is my gripe). I can't see how using some other installation system, other than the usual one for the Linux distro, would make any sense. The REAL installers are provided in the Linux distros, not by Lazarus, there are GUIs (Synaptic for Ubuntu) for package managers if you don't like using the command line. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc · 2010-04-19 21:14 Quote from: alejol0 on April 19, 2010, 04:43:21 pmIt is my ask for Lazarus developers: please, make REAL installers for Linux. Define real installers. Define linux. The installation of Lazarus itself is no rocket science, simply create a dir, copy all lazarus files and dirs into it and ready. But..... .... Lazarus has some dependencies. One is FPC, which we can maybe solve ourselves. More important are the dependencies for the development packages needed to interface with X,GTK,Name_Your_Lib. Those dependencies are installed different for every distribution. There is no generic way of doing this. There is no way for the lazarus team to provide those packages/installers, simply because we don't know all of them and don't have experience on them. I, for instance, only know about fedora. And when installing fedora you will get the question what kind of machine you want, if you want to do development or somthing like that.. Normally this option is unchecked. When checked, all those dependent development packages are installed. Otherwise you have to do that later yourself. Other distros... no idea ---------------------------------------------------------------------- theo · 2010-04-20 06:50 Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2010, 11:14:58 pmOther distros... no idea With OpenSuSE you can install from a webpage. See "1-Klick- Installation": http://software.opensuse.org/search?baseproject=openSUSE%3A11.2&p=1&q= lazarus