Embedded designer
lazarus / 10-Designer

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-10 16:05

Since Sparta is no longer functional/maintained, we decided to
backport CT's excellent form designer(r.62735). You can test it with
Lazarus trunk:
1. Svn update/git pull
2. Recompile package
ideintf($(Lazarus)/components/ideintf/ideintf.lpk)
3. Rebuild IDE
4. Go to Tools->Options->Environment->Embedded designer and check
"Enable embedded desinger"

Important:
Please avoid any drama in this thread, if you have issues with CT,
take it somewhere else. This thread is about the designer and nothing
else.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thaddy · 2020-03-10 16:39

@GetMem and in general:
You may have issues with po files, so do a clean check out.
(I ran into this today)
A clean check out builds and works.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-10 16:52

@Thaddy
QuoteYou may have issues with po files, so do a clean check out.Thanks
for the suggestion, but I never commit po files. I have nothing to do
with translations.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thaddy · 2020-03-10 17:15

It is merely a warning for side effects. The improvement is
appreciated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Otto · 2020-03-10 19:38

@GetMem

Hello.
You did a great job.

I tested the package and it seems to work very well. Coming up I will
do more tests with more complex projects. I tried to enable it and
disable it and it behaved correctly.
I hope it is adopted in the next version of Lazzarus, I think it is
very useful for projects that use many forms.

However, I did not understand what CT is and the drama related to it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pascal · 2020-03-10 20:15

Looks great and seems to work. Just the size of the scrollbars are a
bit wired. They seem to show the remainig space from the top left of
the windows to the bottom right of the screen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pascal · 2020-03-10 20:23

Some forms did not get recognized. If i press F12 the form gets
opened. Another F12 then doesn't bring back the source.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-10 20:24

@Otto
QuoteYou did a great job.Thanks, but I only did the backport. It
wouldn't be fair to take credit for other peoples work.

QuoteI tested the package and it seems to work very well. Coming up I
will do more tests with more complex projects. I tried to enable it
and disable it and it behaved correctly.I'm glad you like it. Thanks
for testing.

QuoteHowever, I did not understand what CT is and the drama related to
it.In this particular case ignorance is bliss. Believe me you lose
nothing. If still interested you can do a forum search.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
af0815 · 2020-03-10 20:25

Looks nice on Lazarus 2.1.0 r62735M FPC 3.3.1 i386-win32-win32/win64

BTW: I have removed Sparta package first.

PS: F12 works for me (tested with a simple design) in both directions

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-10 20:27

@Pascal
QuoteLooks great and seems to work. Just the size of the scrollbars
are a bit wired. They seem to show the remainig space from the top
left of the windows to the bottom right of the screen.I noticed the
scrollbar too. It can be fixed later. For now we wish to see how
stable it is with different widget sets, Laz/FPC versions.

QuoteSome forms did not get recognized. If i press F12 the form gets
opened. Another F12 then doesn't bring back the source.Here we go  .
Lazarus/ FPC version please. Are you using custom forms?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pascal · 2020-03-10 20:28

Quote from: af0815 on March 10, 2020, 09:25:10 pmPS: F12 works for me
(tested with a simple design) in both directionsThe F12 issue only
happens on unrecognized forms.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-10 20:30

@af0815
QuoteLooks nice on Lazarus 2.1.0 r62735M FPC 3.3.1
i386-win32-win32/win64

BTW: I have removed Sparta package first.

PS: F12 works for me (tested with a simple design) in both
directionsThanks for testing. It worked for me too with win32/64, qt
and gtk2. Others tested with qt5 and also worked fine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pascal · 2020-03-10 20:30

Quote from: GetMem on March 10, 2020, 09:27:47 pmHere we go  .
Lazarus/ FPC version please. Are you using custom forms?See signature.
Both latest trunk. No custom forms.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
af0815 · 2020-03-10 20:33

THX specially to the contributors (rotfl)

SCNR


@Pascal: I see no signature

----------------------------------------------------------------------
MacWomble · 2020-03-10 20:33

Great Work!

I like this Designer

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pascal · 2020-03-10 20:35

The only difference i see is that the not recognized one is the only
auto create form.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
af0815 · 2020-03-10 20:36

I hope this will be backported to the fixes Branch :-) after a cooling
down.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-10 20:41

@Pascal
QuoteThe only difference i see is that the not recognized one is the
only auto create form.Thanks. I will take a look later. Most likely is
related to FPC trunk, because it works fine with 3.0.4.

@af0815
QuoteI hope this will be backported to the fixes Branch :-) after a
cooling down.It's not a bug fix, unfortunately it won't make it to the
fixes branch, this is considered "new development", although in this
particular case new is not an appropriate expression.

@MacWomble
QuoteGreat Work!
I like this Designer No surprise here(after we look at your
signature).

----------------------------------------------------------------------
MacWomble · 2020-03-10 21:19

I tested with two large projects and all works fine here (Mint 19.3
64Bit) 

@Getmem
My signature was wrong  , it's right now

----------------------------------------------------------------------
dsiders · 2020-03-10 22:33

I applaud the initiative. To be honest, I never understood why this
was left to less-than-cooperative third party.

Using:

FPC 3.0.4
Lazarus 2.1 SVN rev 62735
Windows 8.1 64-bit

The following are not criticisms, just my observations.

Works mostly as expected for me, but there are issues.

* The Form never gets a selection rectangle/rubberband/doodad. (I
don't know if it should, but it seems off to me).
* Title bar does not render BorderIcons or other decorations.
* I cannot activate the form in the object inspector by clicking on
the title bar (pressing escape works though).
* Title bar makes no effort to emulate the appearance on Windows using
system metrics/font/size. (Is this  is a cross-platform issue?)

* Using Tab or Shift-Tab keyboard navigation moves to controls that
are not visible on the form.

* The last is just a thought... move the toggle for the preview pane
to the unused area between scrollbars. This would allow the button
panel to be center aligned to the preview panel. Lik eI said... just a
thought.

It's a really good start.

Can we expect IDE Docking in the future?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sternas Stefanos · 2020-03-11 00:36

from Typhon COPYING.txt CodeTyphon Studio ver 7.00

ct_about.pas
ct_apimatrixform.pas
ct_basefunctions.pas
ct_componentlist.pas
ct_emb_basics.pas
ct_emb_formeditor.pas
ct_emb_notebook.pas
ct_mproject.pas
ct_mprojecteditor.pas
ct_popupcomppages.pas
ct_popuppkgs.pas
ct_loggerform.pas
typhon.ctpr
typhon.pp
typhonbuild.ctpr
typhonbuild.ppr
typhonstart.ctpr
typhonstart.ppr
These files are property of PilotLogic.

Did you have permition from PilotLogic to use these file to Lazarus
IDE ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
skalogryz · 2020-03-11 00:54

Quote from: Sternas Stefanos on March 11, 2020, 01:36:51 amDid you
have permition from PilotLogic to use these file to Lazarus IDE ?
is there an issue? it's GPL licensed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sternas Stefanos · 2020-03-11 00:58

No Sir
it's NOT GPL licensed

ct_emb_basics.pas
ct_emb_formeditor.pas
ct_emb_notebook.pas

are PilotLogic property

Please, remove our unlicensed files from Lazarus IDE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
skalogryz · 2020-03-11 01:05

Quote from: Sternas Stefanos on March 11, 2020, 01:58:41 amit's NOT
GPL licensed

ct_emb_basics.pas
ct_emb_formeditor.pas
ct_emb_notebook.pas
ah.. i see.
Is Code Typhon using GPLed parts of Lazarus?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BeRo · 2020-03-11 01:25

Quote from: Sternas Stefanos on March 11, 2020, 01:58:41 am... Please,
remove our unlicensed files from Lazarus IDE.


If you do not withdraw your request, then I would like to request you
to remove the following from CodeTyphon:

pl_Kraft (which is my project)
pl_Pappe (what is also my older project)
pl_Vulkan (where the generator is based on the one from my PasVulkan
project without permission and also contains no mention of my name as
credits, and the code style of the generated vulkanlib.pas pascal code
from the vk.xml is recognizable from my vk2pas.dpr from my PasVulkan
project) 

and the PasGLTF, PasJSON and PasDblStrUtils files at pl_CastleEngine,
the DLLLoader and the ASIO wrapper stuff from pl_ASIOVST, these are
also from me or based on my code work.

because there's about the same problem, just here in the other
direction.

It's your choice.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
dsiders · 2020-03-11 01:28

Quote from: BeRo on March 11, 2020, 02:25:24 amQuote from: Sternas
Stefanos on March 11, 2020, 01:58:41 am... Please, remove our
unlicensed files from Lazarus IDE.


If you do not withdraw your request, then I would like to request you
to remove the following from CodeTyphon:

pl_Kraft (which is my project)
pl_Pappe (what is also my older project)
pl_Vulkan (where the generator is based on the one from my PasVulkan
project without permission and also contains no mention of my name as
credits, and the code style of the generated vulkanlib.pas pascal code
from the vk.xml is recognizable from my vk2pas.dpr from my PasVulkan
project) 

because there's about the same problem, just here in the other
direction.

It's your choice.

Okay, lemme get some popcorn...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sternas Stefanos · 2020-03-11 01:32

The problem, is that the above files
ct_emb_basics.pas
ct_emb_formeditor.pas
ct_emb_notebook.pas

are property of PilotLogic.
Please, remove our unlicensed files from Lazarus IDE
and this is my last warning...

I will NOT write anything else.
Good Luck...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Handoko · 2020-03-11 01:34

First of all I'm not a lawyer, what I'm going to say could be wrong.
Second, I respect both Lazarus's and Code Typhon's developers, I'm not
interested in any kind of fight and I hope the issue can be solve
peacefully.

- I heard a lot of people said, Code Typhon was a fork of Lazarus.
- Lazarus itself is licensed under GPL
- GPL has 'viral' nature

QuoteThe GPL is clear in requiring that all derivative works of code
under the GPL must themselves be under the GPL. Ambiguity arises with
regards to using GPL libraries, and bundling GPL software into a
larger package (perhaps mixed into a binary via static
linking).Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_Lice
nse#Linking_and_derived_works

QuoteThe mere act of communicating with other programs does not, by
itself, require all software to be GPL; nor does distributing GPL
software with non-GPL software. However, minor conditions must be
followed that ensures the rights of GPL software is not
restricted.Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_Li
cense#Communicating_and_bundling_with_non-GPL_programs

According to the quotes above, any derivative works need to be in GPL
unless for bundling the software and for libraries, which is merely
communicating with other programs.

Anyway, because the original author of those 3 files already mentioned
they are not willing to let those files being used in Lazarus, I think
we should respect their decision no matter it is 'correct' or not in
the license terms, we should write it our own.

That's my 2 cents.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BeRo · 2020-03-11 01:57

Since I have also a legal personal protection insurance for companies
and businesses, which also cover such foreign cases against other
companies and businesses, I am just thinking about whether I should
really take legal action against CT or not, at least in the case of
pl_Vulkan of the missing mention of my person at the generated
vulkanlib.pas, but the other stuff are actually license-technically
okay, since these are (l)gpl or zlib licensed from me. Because after
all it would cost me 150 Euro insurance excess.  

So, what do you think, guys? What should I do? At least in the
pl_Vulkan case it is a real shame on the side of Pilotlogic.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Handoko · 2020-03-11 02:05

Please don't do it sir. The Pascal community isn't as large as in the
past. You already mentioned that you wish they to remove the codes,
let's give them time and see. Actually you can take legal action, but
there always new 'bad guys' appear and losing money for them is not
worth, unless they are commercial companies which you can sue them and
get money.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BeRo · 2020-03-11 02:30

Quote from: Handoko on March 11, 2020, 03:05:53 amPlease don't do it
sir. The Pascal community isn't as large as in the past. You already
mentioned that you wish they to remove the codes, let's give them time
and see. Actually you can take legal action, but there always new 'bad
guys' appear and losing money for them is not worth, unless they are
commercial companies which you can sue them and get money.

In any case, I will at least wait a little longer before I do further
thoughts about this, of course. These are just my first thoughts on
how to fight back.

At least I find his behavior and his current request very impudent of
him now, as if he wouldn't be aware that the GPL license is
"infectious" here, since the GPL license has a "viral" nature in this
case, and Lazarus itself is after all GPL-licensed, and the LCL is
modified-LGPL-licensed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
eljo · 2020-03-11 02:50

First of all, I understand the feelings of most of the people and
their reaction but it is not time to over react or allow emotions to
overwhelm our decision process.
the lazarus IDE has 2 licenses. GPL and LGPL with extension. the intf
part of the IDE is under lgpl with extension to allow for
commercial/closed source addins to be written. Having said that the
extension only allows non lgpl code to use it not change it. which
means that if
1) the code posted is using only the intf part of the IDE
and
2) no other gpl unit is directly linked to those units mentioned above
then pilot logic has the right to share the code of those units under
any license they see fit.
so the question is what is the license that PL is using for the above
units?
sorry I only use and install released versions and I generaly avoid
the development tree so I haven't got or accessed the new code yet.

PS

Didn't sparta got open sourced ? isn't preferable to port that
designer instead of wasting time on PL and its products?

As for the open source component authors in this forum if you do want
to take some action you can simple add an exception to your releases
saying that everyone can use your components except CT.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BeRo · 2020-03-11 02:57

Quote from: eljo on March 11, 2020, 03:50:26 am1) the code posted is
using only the intf part of the IDE
and
2) no other gpl unit is directly linked to those units mentioned above
then pilot logic has the right to share the code of those units under
any license they see fit.
so the question is what is the license that PL is using for the above
units?

This is, as how I understand the GPL license itself, not relevant with
the GPL as long as it ends up in the same binary. This is also the
reason why the modified-LGPL with the static linking exception exists.
Because with the normal unmodified LGPL you would have to use the RTL,
LCL, and so on as external dynamic linked .DLL or .SO library files.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
eljo · 2020-03-11 03:09

Quote from: BeRo on March 11, 2020, 03:57:28 amQuote from: eljo on
March 11, 2020, 03:50:26 am1) the code posted is using only the intf
part of the IDE
and
2) no other gpl unit is directly linked to those units mentioned above
then pilot logic has the right to share the code of those units under
any license they see fit.
so the question is what is the license that PL is using for the above
units?

This is, as how I understand the GPL license itself, not relevant with
the GPL as long as it ends up in the same binary.
True but since the IDE does not support dynamic packages or external
plugins the team added an exception on the interface part of the IDE
to allow commercial/closed source addins to be compiled in directly to
the IDE. Now the lazarus team has to
1) make sure that the code in question uses only the interface part of
the IDE
2) decide if its better on the long run to rewrite the designer or
face the CT trolls.

There are a lot of good developers on this forums that would help to
write a new embedded designer or port the sparta designer over just to
avoid coupling them self with the lowlifes of PL.

In any case just to spite the PL I would make sure that the designer
is an addin to lazarus make an external package and post it on github
under GPL with an exception that forbids CTand PL to use it.
Just for the fun of it

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 03:29

This is maybe my imagination. It more looks like a KZDesktop rather
than PL's own package.
I'll stick for Sparta for now, the CT's form designer looks so
problematic (Personally I think that's a mindbogglingly bad idea to
use it in Lazarus). Did they (PL) have any permission to use KZDesktop
property? I think after I know this I want to contact the KZDesktop
owner that his/her codes being used in CT.

Better you backported the KZDesktop than this... Ah.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
eljo · 2020-03-11 03:33

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 11, 2020, 04:29:32 amThis is maybe my
imagination. It more looks like a KZDesktop rather than PL's own
package.
I'll stick for Sparta for now, it looks so problematic.
I remember something along those lines too. I haven't looked at the
code though so I can't express any valid opinion. Is there any link
for the source code of the sparta designer? I'd like to evaluate the
cost for porting it to the current Lazarus if possible.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
trev · 2020-03-11 03:35

I just read the PL EULA. It appears to be a collection of cuts and
pastes from other software licenses with PL interpolations and does
not actually make a lot of sense especially in certain places. Whether
it is even legally enforceable is debatable.

The clause on reverse engineering made me laugh the most

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 03:36

Quote from: eljo on March 11, 2020, 04:33:33 amI remember something
along those lines too. I haven't looked at the code though so I can't
express any valid opinion. Is there any link for the source code of
the sparta designer? I'd like to evaluate the cost for porting it to
the current Lazarus if possible.

Maybe, did you mean KZDesktop?
https://sourceforge.net/projects/kzdesktop/
Better backport this, it's LGPL license. So, no worries. Rather than
using CT's knock-off.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BeRo · 2020-03-11 03:45

Quote from: eljo on March 11, 2020, 04:33:33 amIs there any link for
the source code of the sparta designer? I'd like to evaluate the cost
for porting it to the current Lazarus if possible.
You can find the src for the sparta docked form designer at https://sv
n.freepascal.org/svn/lazarus/trunk/components/sparta/dockedformeditor/
which compiles with Lazarus SVN trunk, but it has various focus and
redraw issues at runtime now, for example see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPHYc9eYbNI

----------------------------------------------------------------------
eljo · 2020-03-11 03:46

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 11, 2020, 04:36:37 amQuote from: eljo
on March 11, 2020, 04:33:33 amI remember something along those lines
too. I haven't looked at the code though so I can't express any valid
opinion. Is there any link for the source code of the sparta designer?
I'd like to evaluate the cost for porting it to the current Lazarus if
possible.

Maybe, did you mean KZDesktop?
https://sourceforge.net/projects/kzdesktop/
Better backport this, it's LGPL license. So, no worries. Rather than
using CT's knock-off.
thank you that is a starting point but I'm looking for the sparta
designer code that you mentioned earlier, I'd like to download it if
possible.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
eljo · 2020-03-11 03:47

Quote from: BeRo on March 11, 2020, 04:45:09 amQuote from: eljo on
March 11, 2020, 04:33:33 amIs there any link for the source code of
the sparta designer? I'd like to evaluate the cost for porting it to
the current Lazarus if possible.
You can find the src for the sparta docked form designer at https://sv
n.freepascal.org/svn/lazarus/trunk/components/sparta/dockedformeditor/
thank you! lets see how hard this might be.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BeRo · 2020-03-11 03:49

Quote from: eljo on March 11, 2020, 04:47:21 am]thank you! lets see
how hard this might be.
As said, it still compiles with Lazarus SVN trunk, but it has various
focus and redraw issues at runtime now, for example see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPHYc9eYbNI

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 03:54

Quote from: eljo on March 11, 2020, 04:46:51 amthank you that is a
starting point but I'm looking for the sparta designer code that you
mentioned earlier, I'd like to download it if possible.
It's already included in current Lazarus stable and trunk I think, and
it's quite stable on Lazarus 2.0.4-2.0.6, but it's broken in the
trunk, so, no need to download it separately.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
eljo · 2020-03-11 04:07

Oops,  .
I do not like the embedded form designer at all even when I tried the
docked layout I had the form designer undocked, floating. If I
remember correctly all the docked interfaces I tested had a double
title bar, the window title and a second bar bellow it for drag/drop
support which made it atrocious to look and use, so I never used them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 05:21

Quote from: BeRo on March 11, 2020, 02:57:58 amSince I have also a
legal personal protection insurance for companies and businesses,
which also cover such foreign cases against other companies and
businesses, I am just thinking about whether I should really take
legal action against CT or not, at least in the case of pl_Vulkan of
the missing mention of my person at the generated vulkanlib.pas, but
the other stuff are actually license-technically okay, since these are
(l)gpl or zlib licensed from me. Because after all it would cost me
150 Euro insurance excess.  

So, what do you think, guys? What should I do? At least in the
pl_Vulkan case it is a real shame on the side of Pilotlogic.

I agree with this, PilotLogic is actually an Embarrassment to the
Pascal Community. They're weasel and they're chicken.

"let's give them time and see"?
It's has been 4 years now, but there's nothing is changed. If someone
has no problem to deal using law with it. Why not?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
MacWomble · 2020-03-11 06:17

Quote from: trev on March 11, 2020, 04:35:01 amI just read the PL
EULA. It appears to be a collection of cuts and pastes from other
software licenses with PL interpolations and does not actually make a
lot of sense especially in certain places. Whether it is even legally
enforceable is debatable.

The clause on reverse engineering made me laugh the most


This is what I thought when reading their license. Some points where
not clear for me.
After asking them some unclear points of the license they blocked my
account.

So never ask someone at PL about license issues ...

And as they don't use an impressum or other information you have to
guess who they are. This is not serious for a company, as they pretend
to be.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-11 06:24

Guys,

Did you read my first post? This thread is not about licensing or CT.
Please create a blogpost and take all the drama there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
hnb · 2020-03-11 06:40

Quote from: BeRo on March 11, 2020, 04:45:09 amYou can find the src
for the sparta docked form designer at https://svn.freepascal.org/svn/
lazarus/trunk/components/sparta/dockedformeditor/ which compiles with
Lazarus SVN trunk, but it has various focus and redraw issues at
runtime now, for example see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPHYc9eYbNI

seems that Sparta still has some fans and potential contributors ,
worth to mention that the most usefully parts of Sparta are not ported
yet to Lazarus trunk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aUf7hhgwwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOjWCLDScQ

it was open sourced ( https://github.com/dathox/freesparta ) as :

2_spartaStarter
3_spartaProfessional

----------------------------------------------------------------------
marcov · 2020-03-11 08:07

Quote from: eljo on March 11, 2020, 03:50:26 amFirst of all, I
understand the feelings of most of the people and their reaction but
it is not time to over react or allow emotions to overwhelm our
decision process.
the lazarus IDE has 2 licenses. GPL and LGPL with extension. the intf
part of the IDE is under lgpl with extension to allow for
commercial/closed source addins to be written. Having said that the
extension only allows non lgpl code to use it not change it. which
means that if

Afaik some lazarus devels had a look at it, and the code is directly
plugged into the IDE. The intf exception doesn't hold.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 08:50

Quote from: GetMem on March 11, 2020, 07:24:57 amGuys,

Did you read my first post? This thread is not about licensing or CT.
Please create a blogpost and take all the drama there.

Like I said before, rather than backporting PL's package which is
totally disgracing the community, better use KZDesktop name because
that's the original package. By adding CT itself to the topic, answers
about license will unavoidable. And, we need to understand why Lazarus
using that and this license, because we're living in the opensource
world, and licensing is important.

And, we need to make a clear and distinguish how Lazarus community and
PL (pirate logic) community works. That's why there are contributor
sections in the Lazarus's about form. Why the heck Lazarus need to
included a package that already removed the original author's credits
by PL.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
PascalDragon · 2020-03-11 09:12

Quote from: GetMem on March 11, 2020, 07:24:57 amDid you read my first
post? This thread is not about licensing or CT. Please create a
blogpost and take all the drama there.

As Dio Affriza wrote, you made it about licensing by using code from
CT. This is/was inevitable.

Quote from: hnb on March 11, 2020, 07:40:20 amQuote from: BeRo on
March 11, 2020, 04:45:09 amYou can find the src for the sparta docked
form designer at https://svn.freepascal.org/svn/lazarus/trunk/componen
ts/sparta/dockedformeditor/ which compiles with Lazarus SVN trunk, but
it has various focus and redraw issues at runtime now, for example see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPHYc9eYbNI

seems that Sparta still has some fans and potential contributors ,
worth to mention that the most usefully parts of Sparta are not ported
yet to Lazarus trunk:

You're alive!  I had already wondered about that...

Well, you could look at the issues that Sparta's docked form editor
currently has, then another docked editor might not be required...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-11 10:07

Quote from: Sternas Stefanos on March 11, 2020, 01:58:41 amNo Sir
it's NOT GPL licensed
Sternas, they are GPL licensed because they are part of your Lazarus
fork which is GPL licensed.
That is how GPL works.
Please note that copying your improved GPL code is not a hostile act
in any way. The whole essence of FOSS development is to copy, modify
and spread other people's code. You have done it and I appreciate it.
Yes, I feel honored that my GPL code has been worth copying. I hope
you feel honored that your GPL embedded designer was worth copying for
us.

Please remember that none of Lazarus core developers have attacked
your project. It was done by other people. Some of them gave an
impression they represent Lazarus project, which was a nasty and ugly
thing to do.
When the heat was on a few years ago, I studied both (L)GPL and your
forked code. I didn't find any license violations, except for a minor
forgotten license header from new files(*).
You had removed author info from some packages but most of them are
fixed AFAIK.
Author information is not required or even mentioned in GPL. Thus
removing it is not a license violation but it violates copyright
rules.
Still I feel the whole mudslinging went totally out of proportions.

Everybody please try to understand what a FOSS license GPL is about.
The license encourages to copy, modify and spread code. It has two
essential rules:
1. Modified source code must be published somehow when binaries built
from it are delivered.
2. The license of the modified source code must remain the same GPL.

Pilot Logic has followed those license rules (except the minor header
omissions*).

(*) Sternas, GPL requires the license header in every source file.
You had forgotten it from the embedded designer files, thus they were
added to the Lazarus copy.
No big deal, I have forgotten those headers many times from new files.
I have added them only later.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
balazsszekely · 2020-03-11 10:22

@Dio Affriza
QuoteLike I said before, rather than backporting PL's package which is
totally disgracing the communityWhy is disgracing if we backport
something good and functional and the gpl license allow us?

Quote because we're living in the opensource world, and licensing is
important.Agreed. Did we break some rules, that I'm not aware of? I' m
talking about real license rules, note some imagined moral rules. If
yes then we must remove the embedded desinger.

QuoteBetter use KZDesktop name because that's the original package.Ok.
If you're 100% sure that KZDesktop was the original package, I will
mention it in my original post. I can even inlcude it in the Lazarus
source files description.

PS: Idealy Sparta should be fixed, but Maciej does not have the time.
@Dio are you willing to invest some of your free free time to fix
sparta?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 10:43

QuoteDid we break some rules, that I'm not aware of? I' m talking
about real license rules, note some imagined moral rules. If yes then
we must remove the embedded desinger.The original headers all removed,
that I think it's a violation, and the author attribution, I don't
understand why it removed, and in my point of view, that's not good,
it's a copyright violation. I won't care if it will be available by
using OPM and installed by the user's own, but bundled with Lazarus,
really?

QuoteOk. If you're 100% sure that KZDesktop was the original package,
I will mention it in my original post. I can even inlcude it in the
Lazarus source files description. I'm pretty sure because I am using
an early CT before. It may be heavily modified and the whole units
renamed, who knows.

QuotePS: Idealy Sparta should be fixed, but Maciej does not have the
time. @Dio are you willing to invest some of your free free time to
fix sparta?I'm quite satisfied with Sparta and Lazarus 2.0.6. I'm not
sure about the trunk version, I'll check it later.

PS: I think I already asking before, back in 2013 to make KZDesktop
included in Lazarus in this forum, and nobody cares. Always same
answer, "use F12 blablabla", until it's too late and copied by PL and
the KZDesktop developer not maintain it anymore. There's no wonder
people are dissapointed with this forum. Horribly too late. I'm so mad
that time, I don't even want to open this forum until 2017.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
mercurhyo · 2020-03-11 10:48

huh ... relax
I'm no lawyer but "common sense" told me that if someone uses 97% of
my code with my permission and THEN plays Commando by prohi.. biting
me to use back his 3%, I wouldn't be in a wonderful mood!

PL ==> Better to cool off, and find a friendly path, before a K-boum
in a Legal court! 

Lemme get a beer and see

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Handoko · 2020-03-11 10:59

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 11, 2020, 11:43:22 amThe original
headers all removed, that I think it's a violation, and the author
attribution, I don't understand why it removed, and in my point of
view, that's not good, it's a copyright violation.

I am not sure removing headers is allowed or not but I heard crediting
the (original) author is required in GPL:

Quote... DR DOS, Inc. failed to comply with the GNU General Public
License (GPL) by not crediting the FreeDOS utilities to their authors
and including the source code.[87] After complaints from FreeDOS
developers (including the suggestion to provide the source code, and
hence comply with the GPL), DR DOS, Inc. instead withdrew version 8.1,
and also the unaffected 8.0, from its website.Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-DOS#Controversies

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thaddy · 2020-03-11 11:30

removing headers is a GPL violation indeed, but only if it is
distributed without the original headers or GPL reference.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-11 14:52

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 11, 2020, 11:43:22 amThe original
headers all removed, that I think it's a violation, and the author
attribution, I don't understand why it removed, and in my point of
view, that's not good, it's a copyright violation.
Which all headers were removed?
In my understanding license headers were added because they were
missing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-11 15:00

Quote from: Handoko on March 11, 2020, 11:59:39 amI am not sure
removing headers is allowed or not but I heard crediting the
(original) author is required in GPL:

Quote... DR DOS, Inc. failed to comply with the GNU General Public
License (GPL) by not crediting the FreeDOS utilities to their authors
and including the source code.[87] After complaints from FreeDOS
developers (including the suggestion to provide the source code, and
hence comply with the GPL), DR DOS, Inc. instead withdrew version 8.1,
and also the unaffected 8.0, from its website.Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-DOS#Controversies
That is false information! Please read the license carefully. It does
not even mention author information.
Copyright rules are separate from the license.
Providing the source code is an essential license requirement
obviously.

[Edit] Ok, I only remembered the missing author info in the license.
It does mention "copyright" many times, which always includes the
copyright holder (often the author).
It mentions copyright law and sentences like:
 "... on each copy an appropriate copyright notice".
Source :
 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
Maybe I should read it again. It was some years ago.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Handoko · 2020-03-11 16:27

As I'm a programmer not lawyer, I care more about the development
progress of this embedded designer, it's looks interesting and I may
use it when it is ready.

For those who are interested in 'did they violate license terms', I
suggest you try to consult with gpl-violations.org, they understand
GPL better than us. They can give you better understanding and even
assist copyright holder taking action against the GPL violator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl-violations.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------
dsiders · 2020-03-11 16:40

And *poof*... back to regularly scheduled programming.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
hnb · 2020-03-11 18:22

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 11, 2020, 11:43:22 amPS: I think I
already asking before, back in 2013 to make KZDesktop included in
Lazarus in this forum, and nobody cares.

This is not true. KZDesktop was interesting technical lecture and was
inspiration for me for Sparta project. I learned from you many things.
Sparta has some spirit from KZDesktop, and today Sparta is part of
Lazarus.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-11 18:42

QuoteI learned from you many things. Sparta has some spirit from
KZDesktopHold on. I'm not the author.

But yeah, that time I asked for that in this forum. That things makes
me a not satisfied are the answers I got, "why are you not using f12
to switch forms, whatever...", and the most insulted one I think, "So,
what the poDesigned used for if we are using single window designer".
That's so irritating.

But, what makes me feels so ironic is... Why that time no one to
backport that, and suddenly want to backporting PL's package which is
have an ambiguous license. That time KZDesktop was a perfect
candidate, it's an opensource project and it's a LGPL license. This is
so weird.

And... I am a big fan of New Pascal, sadly the project looks suspended
maybe?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Handoko · 2020-03-11 18:52

Maybe manpower issue. The more people get involved the better the
software will be, including the customer service, documentation,
public relation, etc. I feel the forum has more active users now
compare to some years ago, am I wrong?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
kupferstecher · 2020-03-11 19:06

Quote from: JuhaManninen on March 11, 2020, 11:07:39 amthey are GPL
licensed because they are part of your Lazarus fork which is GPL
licensed.
That is how GPL works.I'm not sure if its that easy in legal terms. If
he did a copyright violation, that doesn't mean that his changes are
free to everyone. It probably depends on (each) national legislation.
This is even more if the original code comes from a third party.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-13 23:00

Quote from: kupferstecher on March 11, 2020, 08:06:17 pmQuote from:
JuhaManninen on March 11, 2020, 11:07:39 amthey are GPL licensed
because they are part of your Lazarus fork which is GPL licensed.
That is how GPL works.I'm not sure if its that easy in legal terms. If
he did a copyright violation, that doesn't mean that his changes are
free to everyone. It probably depends on (each) national legislation.
This is even more if the original code comes from a third party.
Well, I was told the same thing by others. Even if somebody violates a
license by leaving the license headers out, I should not add them by
myself. It should go through an official legal process.
Another complication:
GPL code "taints" or "infects" any new code linked to it ... but what
if there are no linked binaries? What if only sources with a build
script are delivered?
I believe the license has been explained and clarified for interpreted
languages etc. but anyway it creates an extra complication.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
coliv_aja · 2020-03-13 23:15

If I'm not mistaken pl_glassdock actually kzdesktop, the license
should following it. I used to compare their source years back. But
they did good job maintaining it with recent lazarus.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-14 00:17

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 11, 2020, 07:42:24 pmBut, what makes
me feels so ironic is... Why that time no one to backport that, and
suddenly want to backporting PL's package which is have an ambiguous
license. That time KZDesktop was a perfect candidate, it's an
opensource project and it's a LGPL license. This is so weird.
What steps did you take to integrate KZDesktop to Lazarus?
Did you offer patches?
Or did you just tell other people to do the work for you because you
say so?
That is not how open source works. Basically all developers scratch
their own itches. There are thousands of missing features and bugs to
work on. Nobody is paid to work on them, except for some one-time
bounties for a specific task.

I personally supported backporting the CT form editor for 2 reasons:
1. I heard it works while the Sparta editor does not.
2. I wanted to make people realize the principle of FOSS development.
Copy, modify and spread shamelessly. That is the essence of GPL.

Number 2 didn't end well. The reaction from Sternas was a surprise and
disappointment for me of course.
How did we come into this situation? I remember many years ago Sternas
was on this forum discussing and answering questions. Many people
praised improvement in CT compared to Lazarus. There was a sense of
healthy competition. I believe they had some omitted or altered
copyright texts also then but there was no war around the issue.
Suddenly the atmosphere changed. People started to attack them and
call them names. There were false accusations. They allegedly removed
license texts from Lazarus+LCL and 3rd party components. It was a lie.
I finally checked their Lazarus+LCL fork and some other components.
All license headers were intact.
Some people explained they break the license because they don't offer
their changes back to Lazarus as patches. GPL has no such rule in
reality.
Some people admitted they follow the license but they are morally
wrong. WTF!!!
What triggered this avalanche? Mostly it was the blogs of one
Norwegian person. People respected him because he is a good programmer
and he can write well to agitate people. Most of his claims were lies.
I remember one "there is an international law to have a Subversion
server". No there isn't.
He didn't have any own code to protect from Pilot Logic, he just
enjoyed seeing people fight a war after he manipulated them. (Actually
he claimed his code was stolen but refused to give details...)
This all proved something about a human nature. A FOSS license clearly
gives too much freedom, people started to pull new "amendments" from
their hats for it. Most people didn't check facts but just repeated
accusations from other people.

Unfortunately Pilot Logic was guilty of some removed or changed
copyright texts. A copyright and a license are two different things
but copyright is very important because a copyright holder can define
and change the license.
I understood there are still some omissions and border cases like
changing "Lazarus Developers Team" into "Typhon Developers Team" in
copyright.

The latest form editor episode ... I am not sure if their own license
is legal because of some loophole in GPL text, and honestly I don't
care. I have better things to do. The attitude of Sternas is clearly
caused by all mudslinging he and his company got. He blames Lazarus
people because some people claimed they represent Lazarus.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
winni · 2020-03-14 00:27

Hi!

Thanx. That is part of the info I needed - because I did not know
about the whole struggle.

That is the way - and not deleting my messages and pretending that it
is spam!

Thanx again.

Winni

----------------------------------------------------------------------
mercurhyo · 2020-03-14 02:57

Lazarus and CT are TWO excellent programing tools.

as long as they 'worked together' more or less, I used them both. The
troubles have, even if they came from stupid people not working at one
of the teams, to my opinion, begun when CT started to change files
extensions to somehow break compatibility in 'facade'. So that would
have give clues to you @JuhaManninen, around what had happen with
@Sternas, years ago.
That said. Such a war could have no effect in C BIG world, but it
kicks hard, I bet, in Pascal world.
There is two ways to stop that war, I guess.

1) the teams talk together and find a way to work BOTH TOGETHER at
Pascal world.

2) Each team makes their own improvements, with adapted licenses for
the other team to NOT GRAB THEM

at the 1st case, all is going to peacefuly retrive order.

at the 2nd case, CT is SIMPLY going to die, because it is based on the
other major team, which drives the largest Pascal community over the
Galaxy (and implicitely gives the 'standard' way to move on, about
improvements).

Have a nice reflection, Sirs!

Back to my beer! Cheers!

(signed by gulyone)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-21 05:46

QuoteThe attitude of Sternas is clearly caused by all mudslinging he
and his company got. He blames Lazarus people because some people
claimed they represent Lazarus.
So, who claimed they represent Lazarus? Me? Did I say so? Did they say
so? Take one screenshot, post that here! When did I claim I am a part
of the Lazarus team? Who has a false accusation?

Did I don't over a patch at that time? Most of the fix I do, I send it
here or stored in my Github page (because I don't know how pull and
whatever, mostly I just recommit by deleting all files and replace
it), because why? I'm not really an advanced programmer that
understands a whole LCL, SVN or whatever, I'm just casual hobbyist, I
don't even have any degree. Just the same as I do with other
components. If I have a patch, I'll send it here. If it does not apply
to the stable Lazarus, I'll use it for myself. I even over new Lazarus
icon collections a long time ago? But how this community reacts? So,
the causes of CT exists and doing those things, who? Just an outsider
of the Lazarus Team?

That's how you react to a new contributor joining, huh?
That's no wonder there a something like a project Sparta and New
Pascal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
coliv_aja · 2020-03-21 07:38

Not to mean to offend anyone. But, simply from my experience
pilotlogic had no will to make the conversation. I used to ask in
their forum if they can send a patch of their improvement to fpc
bugtracker. Their answer was "codetypon and its source is property of
pilotlogic", something along that line and banned me. Since then I
never wanted to deal with them anymore.
There's obviously a language barrier. I don't know where they're
coming from but there seems to some different understanding of what
FOSS is. I just simply unable to understand their logic.

Quote from: mercurhyo on March 14, 2020, 03:57:53 amLazarus and CT are
TWO excellent programing tools.

as long as they 'worked together' more or less, I used them both. The
troubles have, even if they came from stupid people not working at one
of the teams, to my opinion, begun when CT started to change files
extensions to somehow break compatibility in 'facade'. So that would
have give clues to you @JuhaManninen, around what had happen with
@Sternas, years ago.
That said. Such a war could have no effect in C BIG world, but it
kicks hard, I bet, in Pascal world.
There is two ways to stop that war, I guess.

1) the teams talk together and find a way to work BOTH TOGETHER at
Pascal world.

2) Each team makes their own improvements, with adapted licenses for
the other team to NOT GRAB THEM

at the 1st case, all is going to peacefuly retrive order.

at the 2nd case, CT is SIMPLY going to die, because it is based on the
other major team, which drives the largest Pascal community over the
Galaxy (and implicitely gives the 'standard' way to move on, about
improvements).

Have a nice reflection, Sirs!

Back to my beer! Cheers!

(signed by gulyone)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Otto · 2020-03-21 08:18

Hi Dio Affriza.

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 21, 2020, 06:46:44 amQuoteThe
attitude of Sternas is clearly caused by all mudslinging he and his
company got. He blames Lazarus people because some people claimed they
represent Lazarus.
So, who claimed they represent Lazarus? Me? Did I say so? Did they say
so? Take one screenshot, post that here! When did I claim I am a part
of the Lazarus team? Who has a false accusation?

Did I don't over a patch at that time? Most of the fix I do, I send it
here or stored in my Github page (because I don't know how pull and
whatever, mostly I just recommit by deleting all files and replace
it), because why? I'm not really an advanced programmer that
understands a whole LCL, SVN or whatever, I'm just casual hobbyist, I
don't even have any degree. Just the same as I do with other
components. If I have a patch, I'll send it here. If it does not apply
to the stable Lazarus, I'll use it for myself. I even over new Lazarus
icon collections a long time ago? But how this community reacts? So,
the causes of CT exists and doing those things, who? Just an outsider
of the Lazarus Team?

That's how you react to a new contributor joining, huh?
That's no wonder there a something like a project Sparta and New
Pascal.

From what I could read in the forum, I can say that JuhaManninen is a
very correct and respectful person of others. I don't think he turned
directly to you. Also note that he is very committed to maintaining
the development of Lazarus. From the way you write, I think you, like
me, are not native English speakers. Keep in mind that it can be very
easy to misunderstand especially the world when writing in a foreign
language.  
Da quello che ho potuto leggere nel forum, posso affermare che
JuhaManninen è una persona molto corretta e rispettosa degli altri.
Non credo si rivolgesse direttamente a te. Tieni inoltre conto che è
molto impegnato nel mantenere lo sviluppo di Lazarus. Da come scrivi
credo che tu, come me, non sia madrelingua inglese. Inoltre considera
che può essere molto facile fraintendersi in particolar mondo quando
si scrive in una lingua straniera.  

Otto.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
kupferstecher · 2020-03-21 11:53

Last year I was looking for a designer component to integrate in my
application and I was recommended to have a look at the JEDI designer
and the designer pl_exDesign included in the CT components. The JEDI
component comes with MPL licence, the CT component comes with its own
proprietary licence.

See below screenshots to get an idea how "similar" both components
are.

The MPL allows changes in the source code but requires the licence to
stay unchanged.
Now although this is not given here, it isn't necessarily a copy right
violation, as the CT-component may be based on a version which was
licenced differently or if CT has the permission by the copyright
holder. The CT guy could even be the original author.
I'm not involved in that component so from outside I don't have any
insight into this.

But IF it is an copyright violation, then by providing the pl_ExDesign
package in the online package manager presumably would be a copyright
violation as well (as there are hints for it). And this is where
Lazarus gets involved, just by hosting. Even if its no copyright
violation by CT, then the hosting still seems to mean a violation of
the CT-licence.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
wp · 2020-03-21 12:01

I think pl_ExDesign should be removed from OPM since the "original"
port is included in one of the JVCL packages which is under our
control. And JVCL is available in OPM as well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
AFFRIZA 亜風実 · 2020-03-21 12:43

Quote from: Otto on March 21, 2020, 09:18:45 amHi Dio Affriza.

From what I could read in the forum, I can say that JuhaManninen is a
very correct and respectful person of others. I don't think he turned
directly to you. Also note that he is very committed to maintaining
the development of Lazarus. From the way you write, I think you, like
me, are not native English speakers. Keep in mind that it can be very
easy to misunderstand especially the world when writing in a foreign
language.  
Da quello che ho potuto leggere nel forum, posso affermare che
JuhaManninen è una persona molto corretta e rispettosa degli altri.
Non credo si rivolgesse direttamente a te. Tieni inoltre conto che è
molto impegnato nel mantenere lo sviluppo di Lazarus. Da come scrivi
credo che tu, come me, non sia madrelingua inglese. Inoltre considera
che può essere molto facile fraintendersi in particolar mondo quando
si scrive in una lingua straniera.  

Otto.
Okay, I will calm down now.

Do that backport, whatever lah, I won't send any comments anymore.
Discussing a license about CT is a totally waste a time, what the heck
I am thinking. If I do this to their forum, I really get banned
because of their nature.

Better I trying to fix some projects that I've been abandoned for
months or checking that Sparta package in the current trunk version (I
don't know why it always fails to perform SVN Checkout in the
FPCUpDeluxe).

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-21 13:31

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 21, 2020, 06:46:44 amSo, who claimed
they represent Lazarus? Me? Did I say so?
I was mostly referring to the blogger I mentioned earlier.
I don't even remember names of many forum posters from years ago. My
name memory is poor. So, I don't remember what you have written then.

QuoteDid I don't over a patch at that time? Most of the fix I do, I
send it here or stored in my Github page (because I don't know how
pull and whatever, mostly I just recommit by deleting all files and
replace it),
Lazarus project uses a Subversion server for its development, but you
can use a mirror repository in Github.
In both cases you should create patches and upload them into the
bugtracker.
 https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Creating_A_Patch

Testing and applying patches from contributors is not a trivial task
either. A developer also must study the relevant code to see potential
problems. Nobody knows millions of lines of code by heart. Then those
problems must be discussed and solved with the contributor. Often many
iterations with patches are needed to get it right.
Remember, if I use my commit rights to apply a sloppy patch, I will be
responsible to fix it. The patch author may have gone already by then,
or is not interested to work on the issue more.

A very bad situation is when patches are ignored by developers.
It is advertised "patches are welcome". Then somebody uses lots of
time and effort to create one but it sits in the bug tracker for weeks
or months. It is extremely frustrating for the contributor.
So the goal is to go through all patches although it takes time and
some of them must be rejected.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Otto · 2020-03-21 13:35

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 21, 2020, 01:43:58 pmBetter I trying
to fix some projects that I've been abandoned for months or checking
that Sparta package in the current trunk version (I don't know why it
always fails to perform SVN Checkout in the FPCUpDeluxe).

This is the right choice.

From a quick observation I saw that you are working on interesting
projects. As soon as I have free time, I'm going to try them. In
particular kyoukai_framework seems very interesting.

Greetings.
Otto.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-03-21 13:53

Yes somebody please study and fix the Sparta form editor. Its code is
complex and uses lots of interfaces. I guess some of the problems are
caused by the automatic memory management of interface type.
The Sparta package is included in Lazarus sources. If you can download
Lazarus, you can download Sparta form editor.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
avra · 2020-03-21 17:00

Quote from: wp on March 21, 2020, 01:01:21 pmI think pl_ExDesign
should be removed from OPM since the "original" port is included in
one of the JVCL packages which is under our control. And JVCL is
available in OPM as well.I fully agree to remove pl_ExDesign from OPM.
I will also exclude it from the next version of ct4laz. I hope to also
see LazMapViewer available in Lazarus directly or via OPM so I can
also exclude pl_MapViewer from ct4laz. I am waiting for official FPC
3.2 to update ct4laz since many updated components need FPC 3.2. Hope
to see that happen soon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
zoltanleo · 2020-03-31 08:43

Hi guys. Can I know how this venture ended?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
af0815 · 2020-03-31 18:40

Good 😊 For more look in the svn logs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
zoltanleo · 2020-04-01 07:47

@"af0815

I apologize in advance , but I looked at the svn log, starting with
r62735. I found that in r62740 the embedded designer was permanently
removed from the Lazarus source.

What does this mean: a complete rejection from CT embedded designer?
further development of sparta form designer?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-04-01 08:55

Quote from: zoltanleo on April 01, 2020, 09:47:46 am... further
development of sparta form designer?
Hopefully 
I tried to understand the sources enough to fix those bugs but I could
not.
On the other hand, it is not my "itch" because I don't use the
embedded designer nor docked IDE myself.
Somebody who finds the bugs annoying please fix them. This is one good
goal for Lazarus 2.2.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
zoltanleo · 2020-04-01 15:43

Quote from: JuhaManninen on April 01, 2020, 10:55:35 amit is not my
"itch" because I don't use the embedded designer nor docked IDE
myself.
Somebody who finds the bugs annoying please fix them. Thanks for the
answer.
I'm sorry. Most likely, we will not have an embedded form designer in
the foreseeable future.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
JuhaManninen · 2020-04-01 16:47

Quote from: zoltanleo on April 01, 2020, 05:43:32 pmI'm sorry. Most
likely, we will not have an embedded form designer in the foreseeable
future. 
Why such an attitude? 
You are a programmer, aren't you? Just dive into the code, study it,
understand it, fix it!
It uses lots of interfaces. If this was my top priority, I would check
if so many interfaces are needed. My educated guess says some bugs are
caused by the automatic memory management of interfaced types, or more
precisely by freeing manually things that should not be freed
manually. For example:
 https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=36151
I am sure the author (Maciej aka hnb) will answer detailed questions
once you have understood most of the code.

Usually developers are most motivated to implement or fix a certain
feature when it hinders their own work flow.
Bugs in the embedded form designer do not hinder my normal work flow
at all because I don't use it.
I don't use it because I don't use a docked IDE.
Not my itch, sorry.

Actually I did improve the Sparta form designer, too. For example
there was a clash between 2 sources of generics containers. I fixed it
so the sources from FPC libs are used always when available. When not
available, a copy in Lazarus sources is used.

Everybody should also remember this is a volunteer project. The
division between having commit rights / no commit rights is arbitrary.
Usually when somebody provides enough good quality patches, he gets
commit rights. It does not make him an expert, or suddenly make him
understand all code in a multi-million LOC project.
No. Everybody who provides code into the project is a developer!

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zoltanleo · 2020-04-02 09:05

Thanks for the answer Juha.

I am not such an advanced programmer as some people in this forum .

Although I also do not use an embedded form designer to work, but I am
interested in the capabilities of this plugin. Therefore, I expect
someone with more experience than me to do this.

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asdf1337 · 2020-04-16 22:59

Quote from: Dio Affriza on March 21, 2020, 01:43:58 pmQuote from: Otto
on March 21, 2020, 09:18:45 amHi Dio Affriza.

From what I could read in the forum, I can say that JuhaManninen is a
very correct and respectful person of others. I don't think he turned
directly to you. Also note that he is very committed to maintaining
the development of Lazarus. From the way you write, I think you, like
me, are not native English speakers. Keep in mind that it can be very
easy to misunderstand especially the world when writing in a foreign
language.  
Da quello che ho potuto leggere nel forum, posso affermare che
JuhaManninen è una persona molto corretta e rispettosa degli altri.
Non credo si rivolgesse direttamente a te. Tieni inoltre conto che è
molto impegnato nel mantenere lo sviluppo di Lazarus. Da come scrivi
credo che tu, come me, non sia madrelingua inglese. Inoltre considera
che può essere molto facile fraintendersi in particolar mondo quando
si scrive in una lingua straniera.  

Otto.
Okay, I will calm down now.

Do that backport, whatever lah, I won't send any comments anymore.
Discussing a license about CT is a totally waste a time, what the heck
I am thinking. If I do this to their forum, I really get banned
because of their nature.

Better I trying to fix some projects that I've been abandoned for
months or checking that Sparta package in the current trunk version (I
don't know why it always fails to perform SVN Checkout in the
FPCUpDeluxe).

https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/free-sparta-and-
codetyphoon-violates-gpl/

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linuxer · 2020-11-25 15:07

Just an installation note on my recently installed FPC 3.3.1 [trunk]
and Lazarus 2.1.0 [trunk], on Artix Linux, so to make it work:

First install IDEntf form your Lazarus components folder, then
AnchorDockingDesign and after that, sparta_DockedFormEditor, so to
make that work

https://i.imgur.com/uqs53XV.png

Regards