Wich linux destro. lazarus / 1-Linux ---------------------------------------------------------------------- taazz · 2012-09-29 13:42 Ok, here it goes, I'm trying to gather opinions on which linux distribution should I use for dual booting on my windows 7 laptop for lazarus development. The idea is to 1) be 100% compatible with windows 7 (I have no desire to reinstall windows and all my tools) 2) allow me to re-size my existing partitions with out data loss to create it's own partition, 3) Can read and write ntfs partitions I have all my data/programs and some customer data on a second partition other than the primary which must be used so I can easely exchange data between the 2 operating systems. 4) easy to recognize and mount external usb devices my stick and backup disk (local svn repository). 5) it will not give me a lot of grief to install it. I had some limited experience with redhat linux 3 or 4 if I remember correctly and SUSE 7. Both gave me a lot of grief installing drivers suse made sorry I bought it with my unsupported graphics card back then and redhat had problems with a brand new intel network card. I spend around 2 months search the net back then to find out that the specific cards where not supported and I needed to either leave with the default (VGA I think on suse) or buy new ones anyway that was more than a few years back, Today I'm focusing on easy of installation both OS and lazarus extremely stable graphics libraries with antialising on par with windows and of course stable ntfs drivers that is a must I can't stretch that enough the customer I have are very sensitive and at the moment I have no back up for them so if anything goes wrong.........  so any recommendations? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Leledumbo · 2012-09-29 14:11 Quotebe 100% compatible with windows 7 (I have no desire to reinstall windows and all my tools)Unclear, what kind of "compatibility" do you expect? Never use Windows' brain on other OSes, as don't use other OSes' brain on Windows. There will NEVER be 100% compatibility. If you want to get in to Linux, learn it as-is. Don't windows-ize it.* *: Common problem for Linux users coming from Windows, as long as you stick with this "paradigm", getting in to Linux would only be a dream... just my 2 cents Quote2) allow me to re-size my existing partitions with out data loss to create it's own partition,Modern Linux distros (*buntu, Mint, Mageia, etc) have built-in partition editor, usually offered during installation, with front end depends on used DE. Quote3) Can read and write ntfs partitions I have all my data/programs and some customer data on a second partition other than the primary which must be used so I can easely exchange data between the 2 operating systems.As with 2), most of them should be equipped with ntfs-3g, which is capable of reading/writing ntfs partition. Quote4) easy to recognize and mount external usb devices my stick and backup disk (local svn repository). 5) it will not give me a lot of grief to install it.Same with 2) and 3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Zoran · 2012-09-29 14:45 I have dual boot Win7 64 bit and Kubuntu 12.04 32 bit and it seems to me that it satisfies all your requests. I also have another ntfs partition and I share documents on this partition between Windows and Kubuntu. I have no experience with Linux other that Ubuntu and Kubuntu. I used Ubuntu until they started with Unitiy desktop, which is a real disaster in my opinion. Then I switched to Kubuntu. Now I really prefer KDE to Gnome. So, I cannot tell you much about other distros, but I can tell that Kubuntu works for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TurboRascal · 2012-09-29 14:58 Quote from: Leledumbo on September 29, 2012, 04:11:47 pmQuotebe 100% compatible with windows 7 (I have no desire to reinstall windows and all my tools)Unclear, what kind of "compatibility" do you expect? I think OP simply meant there would be no need to reinstall windows after installing linux. If that's the case, ALL modern linux distributions give the option to boot to the original OS after installation. Moreover, windows wouldn't need reinstallation even if losing the ability to boot to it (which never happened to me in this century btw), they would just need reinstallation of the boot loader, or even better, manually putting them into GRUB/LILO/whatever menu. Currently I'd recommend Mint. It has the user friendliness Ubuntu started, but offers a classic Gnome desktop (Mate or Cinnamon). If you don't mind Gnome 3 and Unity, you can also use Ubuntu. If you prefer another desktop instead, you can go for Kubuntu, Xubuntu or Lubuntu, or again Mint with another desktop package. Personally, I prefer Mint's LMDE edition, but if you don't know what is Debian, what is its Testing distribution, or why would you want it, then it's probably not for you Another benefit of LMDE is that it's rolling release, so it never grows old. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BigChimp · 2012-09-29 15:03 Quote from: taazz on September 29, 2012, 03:42:20 pmOk, here it goes, I'm trying to gather opinions on which linux distribution should I use for dual booting on my windows 7 laptop for lazarus development. Just to throw something out there: I'm quite happy developing on Windows and having some (Debian, with XFCE desktop) virtual machines (using Virtualbox) to adapt code to Linux. If you are primarily developing for Linux this may obviously not be so handy, but if your laptop is fast enough, it's worth a thought. With virtual machine snapshots, you can even roll back to a known good configuration and try again. My machine used to dual boot into Linux as well (on a separate partition) and I set up a Virtualbox VM with that physical partition; handy if you forgot something on the machine or want to quickly test something. Debian, Mint or Mint Debian edition would probably be what I'd recommend for a dual boot environment... depending on taste, but as others said, compatibility with Windows is not a factor anymore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ludob · 2012-09-29 15:40 Quote1) be 100% compatible with windows 7 (I have no desire to reinstall windows and all my tools) Installing grub or any other boot manager changes the MBR. Win7 used to not like this and repair installs were sometimes needed breaking grub again. Before installing any distribution, Google for dual boot Windows 7 and your distribution instructions to minimise the risks. Quote I used Ubuntu until they started with Unitiy desktop,Same here. Software Center is also a disaster compared to synaptic for a development environment. I stick with ubuntu 10.04 LTS and am evaluating other distributions for when the LTS ends. Quoteand of course stable ntfs drivers that is a must I can't stretch that enough the customer I have are very sensitive and at the moment I have no back up for them so if anything goes wrong.........I don't see how backup is related to ntfs drivers. If your computer contains important information, back it up regularly on an external or network device and especially before installing anything on it or resizing partitions. If you are sharing an ntfs drive between linux and windows the risk of something going wrong increases. Be prepared for Win 7 sometimes starting a chkdsk at bootup or linux refusing to mount the ntfs drive because it thinks it wasn't shut down correctly. At least that is my experience with it. If possible use a network drive to share the data. Also don't forget that ntfs drivers on linux have very limited knowledge of windows ACL which is another risk factor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JuhaManninen · 2012-09-29 15:48 I throw in my recommendation, too: Mint Linux, KDE edition I had OpenSuse and Sabayon in past but got some hardware problems. Mint + KDE is currently the best choice as "just-works" distro for people who do not want to tweak it much. If you try to choose between Gnome2 and Gnome3 and Gnome3 which looks like Gnome2 and the new Gnome2 fork and Ubuntu's Unity and whatever there are, I say forget them and use KDE. Heavily redesigned KDE 4.0 was alpha state and got a bad reputation but the latest versions are very good! Linux is a superior development environment at least for Lazarus project in my experience. The whole tool chain works better. As a small example, Linux caches source files better. When I search for an identifier name in the whole Lazarus sources, it takes (after the initial slow reading) less than 2 seconds in my machine. Yes, it searches all 1.5 million code lines. On Windows it takes about 10 times as long in the same machine. I do such searches all the time when learning/developing Lazarus code, so it makes a big difference. Juha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JuhaManninen · 2012-09-29 16:07 Quote from: ludob on September 29, 2012, 05:40:45 pmInstalling grub or any other boot manager changes the MBR. Win7 used to not like this and repair installs were sometimes needed breaking grub again. Before installing any distribution, Google for dual boot Windows 7 and your distribution instructions to minimise the risks. My experience is that this part works perfectly well with any major Linux distro. I have installed OpenSuse, Mageia, Sabayon, Fedora, Ubuntu and Mint to a machine with Windows 7 and they all added it nicely to the boot loader menu and Windows 7 always booted when the right entry was selected. With my work machine I was little nervous because the Windows partition had to be resized to get space for a new Linux partition. Mint installation suggested a sane partition table with a resized Windows partition. I clicked Ok and ... it worked. The resized Windows partition was added to the boot menu and it booted without problems. It only insisted running a file system check during the first boot which passed without errors. It is nice to see how far Linux distros have come since 1990's. I understand that all machine configurations don't work as well. There are too many possible combinations of different hardware to test them all. Juha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ocye · 2012-09-29 16:39 Quote from: taazz on September 29, 2012, 03:42:20 pm...so any recommendations?IMHO your questions are inappropriate for the decision of a distro. There are several other aspects like paket manager, configuration/setup tool, repositories, free/closed source, availability of preferred window manager, community etc. - and a lot of answers: http://distrowatch.com. Have a look for Zorin OS and Xandros, both are designed to be Windows like. But I guess you (and most other Linux users) don't want to have another Windows. PS: To add my two personal cents: I love my Arch Linux with KDE (but I wouldn't recommend it to a Windows user). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-09-29 18:35 I think your approach is not appropriate. First, you must check compatibility of your computer. First video card, most of the problems that arise in a Linux, are related to this particular aspect. Then you must check the other devices that come with your PC, WiFi card, printer, scanner and other similar. Google is a good ally in your initial search. Once you've narrowed the search, download linux distributions that best fit your hardware. The vast majority of them have a live test medium (livecd or memory stick) and tests before proceeding with the installation. Regarding the selection of desktop (DM) are all good, but all they are different from Windows. IMHO you should make a major effort to adapt. Finally, I recommend a distribution that offers support for as long as possible. Linux is not Windows, so you should not expect a version that offers 10 years support in the way that Windows XP does. Most distributions release a new version every six months, and the support for them lasts only 18 months. A LTS Ubuntu or Debian fulfill this aspect. Red Hat offers 10 years of support, but you have to pay for it and it is not a distribution for desktop. As for the possibility of an installation in a virtual machine, and because surely you will use to perform the programming, I only recommend it if you have your computer resources to emulate powerful hardware, with at least 2 GB of RAM. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TurboRascal · 2012-09-29 19:36 Quote from: ludob on September 29, 2012, 05:40:45 pmI don't see how backup is related to ntfs drivers. If your computer contains important information, back it up regularly on an external or network device and especially before installing anything on it or resizing partitions. If you are sharing an ntfs drive between linux and windows the risk of something going wrong increases. Be prepared for Win 7 sometimes starting a chkdsk at bootup or linux refusing to mount the ntfs drive because it thinks it wasn't shut down correctly. At least that is my experience with it. If possible use a network drive to share the data. Also don't forget that ntfs drivers on linux have very limited knowledge of windows ACL which is another risk factor.  Of course, there could be some issues. On the one hand, I've used an NTFS storage partition for sharing data between my Linux and Windows installations for years with no problem. On the other hand, after not having a Windows install for more then a year and then installing Windows 7, it fired the CHKDSK up on boot and happily cleared the partition  (luckily I had a freshly made complete backup of it) i.e. it deleted all my files! So, care is advised, but if you regularly boot both OS-es (especially if you use Windows more), I don't expect any problems to happen. Modern NTFS drivers for Linux (specifically NTFS-3G) work very well. If you don't intend to use Linux for anything else but Lazarus development then I also concur with the idea mentioned several times, namely to install it in a VM. That solves many of the associated problems in exchange of being more awkward for frequent use and requiring more resources (mostly RAM) than dual-boot. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JuhaManninen · 2012-09-29 20:20 Quote from: gato2707 on September 29, 2012, 08:35:39 pmI think your approach is not appropriate. First, you must check compatibility of your computer. First video card, most of the problems that arise in a Linux, are related to this particular aspect. Then you must check the other devices that come with your PC, WiFi card, printer, scanner and other similar. Google is a good ally in your initial search. Once you've narrowed the search, download linux distributions that best fit your hardware. The vast majority of them have a live test medium (livecd or memory stick) and tests before proceeding with the installation. Yes, liveCD is good for testing the hardware compatibility, but otherwise you try to make this uselessly complicated. The hardware support determines if you can use Linux at all. If there is a device driver for a certain gadget, it is typically included in every mainstream distro. If there is no such device driver then you are in trouble. You will not find it from any distro however much you google. There are exceptions of course, like a binary driver from a manufacturer which is compiled for one (old) Linux kernel version only, but if you must depend on binary drivers then you are in trouble anyway. It means you should try one of the main distros first. If something does not work then make more plans. The only real exception for this rule are old computers and other hardware. "Old" in this case means like 12 years. Then you need some hacking spirit anyway and my previous advice does not apply. QuoteFinally, I recommend a distribution that offers support for as long as possible. Linux is not Windows, so you should not expect a version that offers 10 years support in the way that Windows XP does. Most distributions release a new version every six months, and the support for them lasts only 18 months. A LTS Ubuntu or Debian fulfill this aspect. Red Hat offers 10 years of support, but you have to pay for it and it is not a distribution for desktop. Again I disagree, sorry. Now we are talking about personal development machines. Who cares about 10 years of support for one distro version when you can anytime download and update the latest version. At least I would not want to use a 10 years old version in any situation, they are advancing so rapidly. Besides, support from different Linux forums is free. QuoteAs for the possibility of an installation in a virtual machine, and because surely you will use to perform the programming, I only recommend it if you have your computer resources to emulate powerful hardware, with at least 2 GB of RAM. The virtual machine does not affect raw CPU speed much but it affects the file cache speed a lot because all file operations end up to Windows. Fortunately taazz wanted a dual boot instead of virtual machine. If really Red Hat 3 was the last distro he saw then a modern distro with a desktop system will be a mind-blowing experience. Juha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-09-30 01:14 QuoteYes, liveCD is good for testing the hardware compatibility, but otherwise you try to make this uselessly complicated. The hardware support determines if you can use Linux at all. This is not entirely accurate. Most LiveCD vg: Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse, Mandriva, Mageia, etc.. Do not include any proprietary driver. However once installed, is basically a simple issue to resolve. Clearly this depends on the type of driver involved. QuoteWho cares about 10 years of support for one distro version when you can anytime download and update the latest version While the issue of the availability of new versions is trivial. It isn't talking about variation in the internal parts of the distribution. Just remember that changing between libc 4 to libc 6 was what turned obsolete Kylix (this without having Borland refused to make the necessary adjustments). About virtual machines. I do not recommend its use for programming. I think they are a valid alternative as a testing field. I also believe that it is more convenient to install a Windows VM within Linux to test apps, that maded it in the opposite way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- taazz · 2012-09-30 02:17 So to recap, in order of appearance rate 1) *buntu derivatives especially ubuntu 10.04 LΤS or Kubuntu 12.04 2) Mint 3) everything else SUSE, FEDORA, MAGEIA,sabayon, Zorin OS, Xandros, 4) Arch. This one is recommended but not to windows users for some reason. Stay away from unity desktop embrace any kde or gnome desktop. 1) KDE 4 seems to be recommended as a stable Desktop manager. 2) Gnome2 is preferred over 3. That about covers everything? How about installation procedures have they changed any in last decade or so or everything is as I remember it text based configuration files with each destro having its own directory tree to place them? Other pitfalls I should keep my eye on? And to answer a few questions. My current development computer is an ACER aspire 5310 with 1GB of ram that is why I can't use VMs for linux. When I say compatibility I mean that I should not waste my time running various tools to correct problems on hard drives or loose installed drivers (or blag your favorite pitfall here) in general avoid spending time in support activities or in this case minimize it to under 20 mins per day. Of course is way to early for me to start installing linux. I have a lot of work to do before I'm ready to boot linux and start working there too. The moment that I install linux I expect to spend most of my developing time in linux and only boot in windows once a day to check emails fill in daily reports etc. I'm trying to make a list with the most promising candidates so I can spend some time researching the process. As for the backups I'm already trying to find space for that but as always I might overlook something. I'm not a fun of constant updates. when I install a linux distribution I will stick with it for a long time updates will be done once every 6 months or so and only security updates will be installed for sure everything else will be considered if time permits. thank you everyone for your input I have something to start my research. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BigChimp · 2012-09-30 03:54 Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amHow about installation procedures have they changed any in last decade or so or everything is as I remember it text based configuration files with each destro having its own directory tree to place them? A lot more graphical installers. Many distros (all?) support the FHS standard, but that "standard" still offers choice in where to put files. So yes, I think there are still differences between the distros. (Also regarding package names etc. No pitfalls I can think of except do things methodically - as you describe doing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TurboRascal · 2012-09-30 03:57 Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amSo to recap, in order of appearance rate 1) *buntu derivatives especially ubuntu 10.04 LΤS or Kubuntu 12.04 ... Stay away from unity desktop embrace any kde or gnome desktop. 1) KDE 4 seems to be recommended as a stable Desktop manager. 2) Gnome2 is preferred over 3. Note that with Ubuntu you can chose only between KDE or Gnome 3; Gnome 2 is not available in any modern distro anymore. However, some distros (notably Mint) offer Mate desktop which is a fork and continuation of Gnome 2 branch. If you're for Gnome 2, go for a Mate-based distro. Mate and Xfce offer classic desktop, while Gnome 3 (and somewhat KDE 4) offer some "innovations" which are quite controversial and are something quite different (especially with Ubuntu's Unity)... Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amHow about installation procedures have they changed any in last decade or so or everything is as I remember it text based configuration files with each destro having its own directory tree to place them? Installation procedures for any modern desktop based distro (Ubuntu, Mint, SuSe, Fedora etc.) are quite easy and straightforward and GUI based. Whoever is able to install Windows will be able to install Linux with no difficulties. Software configurations are mostly kept in configuration files, but directory trees are more or less standardized and systemwide options are kept under the /etc directory. System software (init-scripts) has only two directory structures, SysV (most Linux distros) and BSD (Slackware Linux only). Other software mostly uses its config files (*.conf) in the /etc, some larger software packages creating their own subdirectories (e.g. X). But, while it is good to know basics of the OS used, for the average user this is mostly irrelevant, comparable to the Windows registry. Most system settings can be set with GUI tools, and desktop applications have their own Options/Preferences dialogs and save their settings, just like on Windows. Only for hardcore tasks or when some problems occur is there a need to edit configuration files in /etc (again, similar to the Windows registry). Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amOf course is way to early for me to start installing linux. I have a lot of work to do before I'm ready to boot linux and start working there too. The moment that I install linux I expect to spend most of my developing time in linux and only boot in windows once a day to check emails fill in daily reports etc. If you switch to Linux to do something, perhaps you can start doing the other things too... Why not set your email client (like Thunderbird) and open your documents (using LibreOffice) in Linux too? That's how I switched completely, when I realized that all my daily activities can be equally done in Linux as in Windows. Windows development done in VirtualBox (did a complete application for a small business task that way), I practically never boot to Windows on this machine again. All that is quite easy by the way. Modern distros simply work and require almost no effort from you to start using it. The sole exception is if you have a hardware incompatibility like problems with display or WiFi, only then you need to fiddle with drivers or configurations. Most machines I've tried had no problems at all. Also I often found Linux easier to install on many machines because of the fact that all drivers are included, compared to say WinXP where I've always needed to get and install drivers for practically all hardware. Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amI'm not a fun of constant updates. when I install a linux distribution I will stick with it for a long time updates will be done once every 6 months or so and only security updates will be installed for sure everything else will be considered if time permits. Well, that's exactly as (non-LTS) Ubuntu and Mint do, with new releases every 6 months (containing upgraded software) and periodical updates (containing patches and fixes). The only difference is, they also offer stability updates and other bug fixes besides security ones, but I see no reason to refuse them. So, I'd say you don't need to change the default update policies at all. Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amthank you everyone for your input I have something to start my research. You're quite welcome. Good luck in your Linux-quest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-09-30 03:57 @taazz Arch is not recomended because its installation process is only in text mode, but Arch is a great distro, plus it's a rolling release distro, it's mean there aren't versions, it's in constant upgrade process. Gnome 2 is dead. You must use Gnome 3 or other DM as your own wish. The only distro with actualized software (as I remember) is Fuduntu. Ubuntu 10.04 is going to finish its live cycle in 6 months. The big share of modern distros have a graphical installer, must of them in your native language. Due your 1 GB RAM I DO NOT recommend Unity, but KDE (without effects) could be a good option: Test it. An intermediate option is Cinnamon, now it's avaible in a lot of distros (incluided Ubuntu) not only in Mint. I never heard about conflicts between windows drivers with linux drivers, if you perform a separated installation (please do not use wubi or similar tool). Before to begin an installation process, make a backup of all your windows files and perform a complete defragmentation process. Then you can chose into linux installer a dual booting installation. Linux is in a constant update process, but once intalled you can reject any upgrade, or made a selection of them as your own convenience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- taazz · 2012-09-30 05:13 Since we have so many people that use linux in here I would like to extend the focus of the topic a bit more. I have noted down everything you guys said so far and I will do a proper read up on those subjects as time permits a few questions just to get the hang of things. 1) Am I correct in assuming that all DMs use the X windows subsystem for the graphics support and they build on top a widget set that applications can use? 2) Which DM is the most rich in the spirit of widgets and text support. 3) what is the recommended disk space required for an installation 4) how many partitions and their size are recommended  I will take as granted that a swap disk partition is still needed and along with the main installation partition that brings the minimum requirements to 2 partitions. As I recall there where 3 required for the maximum security or 4 if the home directory was to be on a partition of its own. I am asking for the recommended for the system to work properly and the minimum. Thank you everyone for your time on this. I definitely appreciate your inside. regards Jo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-09-30 06:29 @taazz: 1) Yes 2) KDE, but remember: widgets use memory and processor resources, but you'll not need expend resources in firewalls, antivirus tools, etc. 3) As a min 8GB (KDE) but I'm sure you'll need more, I usually install with 10 - 15 GB for root (/) and the rest of avaible space for /home and swap. 4) 3: /, /home, swap. You'll find a lot of different approaches vg: separated partitions for /usr and /boot. but I really never note any difference in performance, security or any other relevant aspect. How size for /home? well its depends on how many information you want to store in your disk. You will need space for each user configuration files. A separated partition for /home isn't mandatory, but it's the best option. in this way you can upgrade or your system, inclusive change distribution without risk of any lost in your data. For 1 GB RAM you only need 1 GB of swap, but again you'll find a lot opinions on that. Suggestion: Why don't watch videos about different Linux DM's? Remember love begins for the eyes. There are a lot in your favorite video web page. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ludob · 2012-09-30 06:58 Quote2) Which DM is the most rich in the spirit of widgets and text support. You were mentioning a customer. You'd better use the same platform as your customer. Same for the choice between LTS and "bleeding edge". Developing a piece of software that your customer can't run unless he upgrades all libraries involved is no good. I have still several old linux distributions around in a VM just in case, especially for apps distributed as binaries. Quote3) what is the recommended disk space required for an installation 4) how many partitions and their size are recommended  Depends on what you want to do. My development machine uses a 16GB partition for / and a 1T disk for /home. Obviously databases and other data are going in /home and not in /var or /opt. Separating the OS from the data has the advantage that migrating to another OS can be done fairly easy. When using multiple disks this is also beneficial for the speed of your machine. On the other hand, if it are just partitions on the same disk it can affect negatively the speed of your system.  QuoteGnome 2 is dead. You must use Gnome 3 or other DM as your own wish.Don't forget that gnome 3 uses GTK3 and fpc/lazarus don't have the bindings for that, yet. AFAIK Mate uses gtk2 (for the time being?) but Cinnamon uses also GTK3. When going for one of the lightweight DM's XFCE or LXDE you'll find that the interface is very fast and familiar compared to Gnome 3 or KDE 4. On the other hand, you are stuck with file managers that lack a lot of interesting features such as network support. Sharing a dir as a windows share is a few clicks with Gnome nautilus. XFCE requires installing and configuring samba yourself and the last time I used thunar (XFCE file manager) it wasn't able to access network shares without a lot of fiddling (installing and configuring gvfs,...). In the end lightweight DM's require a much better knowledge of linux than the mainstream "fat" distributions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JuhaManninen · 2012-09-30 08:18 Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 04:17:36 amOf course is way to early for me to start installing linux. I have a lot of work to do before I'm ready to boot linux and start working there too. The moment that I install linux I expect to spend most of my developing time in linux and only boot in windows once a day to check emails fill in daily reports etc. Why would you do such thing? At least I am able to check my emails without booting to Windows. You are too much afraid of this Linux installation now. Most people are, that's why Linux is not popular. Even in a IT school people only think of command line and cryptic commands when they hear the word Linux. Obviously they have not seen a modern Linux desktop system. So, you are able to create a bootable USB or DVD from a distro image, right. Then just boot it as "live" (not installing yet), play with it, check your hardware works and then click "Install" if you like it. You can browse the web or chat with us WHILE the installation proceeds. About desktops, as gato2707 mentioned, latest KDE 4.8 is optimized and runs nicely with 1 GB of memory. Actually it runs nicely with 512 MB (yes, tested). Regards, Juha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TurboRascal · 2012-09-30 11:19 Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 07:13:59 am1) Am I correct in assuming that all DMs use the X windows subsystem for the graphics support and they build on top a widget set that applications can use? Yes, but bear in mind that DM does not dictate the widgetset. You can run applications based on any widgetset your system has libraries installed, no matter the DM. Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 07:13:59 am3) what is the recommended disk space required for an installation I wouldn't go less than 10-20GB for for a modern distro install, plus home. I've recently installed one to a 10GB partition and it's very tight, you have to carefully chose what you install. I normally have about 40 GB, all partitions except home combined. You  need to give something to home partition of course, and that should be as much as possible because all your user data goes there; I'd say also in the range of tens of gigabytes, probably also not less than 10-20. For swap there are no strict rules, you can give no swap or several times your RAM, it all depends on how you use your memory. I'd create something in the range of 1-3 times the physical RAM, I'd rather have it a bit too much than insufficient. Quote from: taazz on September 30, 2012, 07:13:59 am4) how many partitions and their size are recommended  I will take as granted that a swap disk partition is still needed and along with the main installation partition that brings the minimum requirements to 2 partitions. As I recall there where 3 required for the maximum security or 4 if the home directory was to be on a partition of its own. Yes, you need a swap partition, and a home partition is highly recommended to isolate your data from the OS. That way you can also easily install Linux from scratch if needed, and have your home the same. I also use it for dual-booting two Linux installs with the same home. You can also split the filesystem to several partitions (for example, I've always had separate usr, var and tmp partitions), but that is not necessary, especially if you're not sure how much space to allocate to which partition. Multiple partitions improve system robustness if a crash occurs, and also helps against fragmentation, but with modern journaling and extent based filesystems (like ext4, xfs, btrfs etc.) there is much less concern for that then it used to be. Another thought when placing the swap partition, people often forget the impact of physical placement on the disk. Even modern distros completely ignore it and by default offer one big root partition and a swap partition after it. That's absolutely worst you can do, since hard disks by design get practically half the transfer speed near the end than near the beginning. The seek time is also worst possible since all your data on the linux partition will be more or less crammed near the beginning, and swap being at the end of that space. That means the head has to cross the entire area every time your system swaps some data and works with the filesystem at the same time! All this doesn't concern people with SSD's since they don't have different speeds or seek times depending on the location, but for all mortals having a normal HDD, this is quite significant. So, you want the swap partition as close to your data as possible (between the partitions is fine) and to the beginning of the disk. So based on all this, I'd say you go for something like this: first the root partition, then swap, and then home. A reasonable example would be, say 20 GB root, 2 GB swap and 40 GB home. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-09-30 15:16 QuoteDon't forget that gnome 3 uses GTK3 and fpc/lazarus don't have the bindings for that, yet. AFAIK Mate uses gtk2 (for the time being?) but Cinnamon uses also GTK3. Lazarus runs fine with GTK 3 - Gnome 3. Tested with 0.9.30.4, 1.0 RC1, 1.0 RC2, 1.0 and CodeTyphon 2.5, 2.6, 2.7 and 2.8. Into Gnome - Shell, Unity, Unity 2D, Gnome Fallback (Gnome Panel) and Cinnamon. You'll have problems only with Unity, and only in Ubuntu, cause liboverlay (the new scroll bars), but as has been written here on several occasions, the solution is inhabilitate or better unnistall it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ludob · 2012-09-30 15:50 QuoteLazarus runs fine with GTK 3Would you mind running Code: [Select]ldd lazarus and tell us what version of gtk is loaded? I bet you'll find libgtk-x11-2.0.so. GTK3 breaks binary compatibility with GTK2 and Lazurus GTK2 links explicitly with gtk-x11-2.0.so. A safe bet So, to run Lazarus on Gnome3 GTK2 (or QT) needs to be installed in addition to GTK3. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-10-01 03:50 @ludob: Of course you are right, but seriously, what is the difference? GTK2 librarys will stay avaiable long time. I think this isn't the right forum for expose the reasons on that. If you feel better I want to reexpose: Lazarus runs fine in Gnome 3 based distros, installing the appopiated dependencies for GTK 2. Moreover in a lot of cases (tested in Ubuntu and some derivatives) installing dependencies is totally transparent process for the user. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TurboRascal · 2012-10-01 04:19 @gato2707: I think @ludob just meant to point to the fallacy of your statement that Lazarus "works fine with GTK 3" which is incorrect. The question is not with which desktop environment Lazarus works. It works fine with Gnome 3, as it does with Gnome 2, KDE... or Xfce, or LXDE, or just a TWM window manager and nothing else. Lazarus doesn't care which desktop you use, it just needs proper libraries for the widgetset it uses. And for GTK, it uses GTK 2, not GTK 1 anymore, nor GTK 3 yet; again, Lazarus doesn't know nor care what the other apps use. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- taazz · 2012-10-01 14:25 Let me sum up everything I have read so far. 1) Doesn't matter which DM I use it only matters to what libraries (GTK,QT) is using so I will not have to install them my self. 2) I can install all those libraries regardless of the VM and my programs written against GTK or QT will run on any vm as long as the libraries are installed on the box. As to 1) why I would want to boot in windows, there are to many reasons to address here lets just say I can not choose between the red and blue pill, I have to keep on crossing between worlds. 2) I am too much afraid of just trying. Its not fear its caution I don't have my regular desktop and this darn laptop is way to fragile for my liking the data in he secod partition is customer data and are not to be lost for any reason I can't keep getting backups of them since I work and change them on a daily bases so I'll have to get one just before the installation but I would want anything to happen to them while I'm indulging in some kind of witch hand. 3) Why everyone things that linux is a console with crypic commands, because most graphic based configs support only around 60%~70% of the existing choices at some point you will have to drop down to console mode and use that darned keyboard. So it makes sense to keep all that knowledge fresh and always use that darn console. With a single disk of 70GB and almost 60% fool capacity 10GB for system + 2GB for Ram, +10GB for home is out of the question. I'll need to minimize the installation to extremities, that meens no sql servers, no office, no extra programs. only a filebrowser, lazpaint for any icon work, lazResourcer or what ever its name is for resource editing, firefox, thunderbird preferably portable both on an external disk so they will not take any disk space if they can't be portable then only firefox for the odd search on the net when developing. from what I have read so far kde4 as a DM with minimalistic installation as much as it can be minimized is what I am looking for. Or even better a light height linux distribution where I can install the QT Libraries later on and have lazarus working on it something like puppy linux or damn small linux or tiny core and walk my way up from there. thank you everyone appreciate your time and knowledge. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- gato2707 · 2012-10-01 16:24 @TurboRascal: Excuse me if you feel my answer is quite ironic, surelly I try to maded it as little ironic as possible. I think there were an unnecessary desviation on the original theme. We (any one who's answer) must read and understand the original sense of the question. If you read the last @taszz post you'll understand my position. He isn't concerned about libraries, he only needs an advice, and make him confortated getting securities about his own needs. @taazz: In my own laptop I had a similar situation years ago. Now I have a very little windows partition and use the most part of de HD for Linux, but due the hardware limitations in an old machine (dell inspirion 1501) I am using Bodhi Linux. It's based in Ubuntu, only follows the LST version and use Enlightenment (E17) desktop. It's requeriements are very little if you compare it with Gnome or KDE. I'm talking about RAM, Processor and HD space. In the other hand, One step more talking about the beauty of Enlightenment. E17 is a totally different paradigm in desktop experience. You can download de LiveCD and try. Just rememeber, in this life is very difficult to be rich and hansome at same time. Regards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TurboRascal · 2012-10-01 17:44 Quote from: gato2707 on October 01, 2012, 06:24:08 pmExcuse me if you feel my answer is quite ironic, surelly I try to maded it as little ironic as possible. I think there were an unnecessary desviation on the original theme. We (any one who's answer) must read and understand the original sense of the question. If you read the last @taszz post you'll understand my position. He isn't concerned about libraries, he only needs an advice, and make him confortated getting securities about his own needs. If you think my answer was rude or inappropriate in any way, that wasn't my intent. I merely wanted to point to a factual error, regardless of context... NHF