Unitarian Universalist Front Porch Chat 4/25/96
Topic: Unitarian Universalism

Note: Initial host greetings have been deleted for the sake of space and clarity.

Luuna TFP:	~)--|        **********        ~)--|        **********        ~)--|
Luuna TFP:	~)--|        **********        ~)--|        **********        ~)--|
JanetReid:	I gotta ga y'all
Luuna TFP:	The weekly Unitarian Universalist Chat is now beginning.
Luuna TFP:	Your hosts for tonight are LuunaTFP, OrigenTFP, and
Luuna TFP:	JosieTFP.
Luuna TFP:	~)--|        **********        ~)--|        **********        ~)--|
Luuna TFP:	Tonight's UU Chat topic is What is Unitarian
Luuna TFP:	Universalism?

Luuna TFP:	Please conduct off-topic chat via Instant Message during
Luuna TFP:	this scheduled event.
Luuna TFP:	~)--|        **********        ~)--|        **********        ~)--|
Luuna TFP:	~)--|        **********        ~)--|        **********        ~)--|
EmilyM96:	hi
Luuna TFP:	ok, now it's official
EmilyM96:	what's a unitarian universalist?
Luuna TFP:	Good question, Emily - that's our topic.  <w>

Ddcanne:	Okay...25 words or less.UU theology.We don't have time.Immediate gratification!! Now!
Truboard:	I may not be able to stay with much of tonights Chat but I would like to thank for all of us those
Luuna TFP:	One brief definition that I have saved - somewhere here - is ..... hang on.....
Luuna TFP:	Unitarian Universalism is a liberal, non-creedal religion
Luuna TFP:	sharing common principles and tradition which supports
Luuna TFP:	personal freedom of belief.
EmilyM96:	and...
Truboard:	responsible for the weekly UUuniverse A good job
Luuna TFP:	That's mostly Josie, and Mauudie (who's not here tonight), Tru.  I agree with you!
JosieTFP:	::: blushing a bit ::: thanks, Truboard!  Before you go -- what's

JosieTFP:	your take on what is UUism?
Luuna TFP:	<clapping for newsletter>
Luuna TFP:	Emily - and?
EmilyM96:	anything else? god?
JosieTFP:	UUism takes no position on the existence/nonexistence of God.
JosieTFP:	Individual UUs do! We value and practice freedom of belief.
Ddcanne:	Good job, Luuna!  Less than 25 words... But, wait!  Isn't your god bigger than my god?
Luuna TFP:	UU has no creed or officially required set of beliefs.
EmilyM96:	Sounds good so far
EmilyM96:	Who do you worship?

Truboard:	My take on UUism is that it's where true open minded seekers belong
Luuna TFP:	Personal theologies range from atheism to humanism to
Luuna TFP:	paganism to christian to buddhist.......
Luuna TFP:	Dd - should She be?
Ddcanne:	Must a person worship a "who?" Can't one simply tend one's garden?
EmilyM96:	Are there any constant UU beliefs? any that all UUists share?
JosieTFP:	Tru, what happens if you think you've found "it" and want to stop searching?  :-)
Luuna TFP:	Emily - what tends to define UU is less a theology than an outlook

Alden7:		Hi
JosieTFP:	UUs do tend to share some principles -- the idea that every
JosieTFP:	human being has worth, for instance, or that all life is
Luuna TFP:	There is a set of Principles that I can post, if you all are
Luuna TFP:	willing to put up with a several line macro
JosieTFP:	interconnected.
Ddcanne:	Ah, Luuna!  Thank goodness someone else (at least seems to) realize(s)a matriarchial setup!

LoreleiCZ:	Hi!  I hope I can stay on longer this week.. Last week I almost blew away in a tornado!
Luuna TFP:	Only on odd-numbered days, Dd.  On even-numbered days I'm agnostic
Luuna TFP:	Oh, dear, Lor - glad to see you were able to make it!
Alden7:		Are UUs agnostic?
Ddcanne:	I tend to flow as the high & low fronts come in... Arthritis, you know!
JosieTFP:	Lorelei, maybe you would have been able to visit Oz?
EmilyM96:	Bye, all. Thanks for the information.
MEENA HERE:	Hello
Ddcanne:	I'd rather be agnostic than arthritic, any day!

LoreleiCZ:	We got hit for two days straight...thought I was in Oz!
Luuna TFP:	Alden - UU has no required theology.  UUs include atheists, agnostics, and theists
Ddcanne:	Wow, Lorelie!  That is terrible!
Alden7:		What is the cause then of arthritis, for instance?
Luuna TFP:	Oh, Lor {{{{{{{{Lorelei}}}}}}}}}}
Truboard:	Certainly there is a basic UU constant, I believe.It is we are all seekers  and most of us
MEENA HERE:	I think that I'm probably the only Muslim here.
LoreleiCZ:	Yeah, but Hillary Clinton visited us today...and we made CNN...
Ddcanne:	For me, Alden, heredity and diet.

JosieTFP:	Welcome, especially, then, Meena.
Ddcanne:	Of course, had I lived in medieval times, I would have thought it demons or sin!
JosieTFP:	Dd, isn't saying "diet" the modern equivalent of saying "sin"?
Alden7:	Dd: are we trapped and suffering because of forces beyond our control?
MEENA HERE:	Thank you.  How are you all doing today?
JosieTFP:	::: getting back to topic ::::
Truboard:	recognizers of the fact that others of us may have found differnt paths  which may even be better than
LoreleiCZ:	Actually I think "diet" is the modern equivalent of sin.

JosieTFP:	My older son, when 8, thought being a UU meant not eating meat.  :-)
Luuna TFP:	Jos - nah.  "Diet" is "penance" for "gluttony"
Luuna TFP:	Jos - lol
Ddcanne:	Not me, Alden.  Josie, diet, or lack thereof, is considered sin in this squeaky clean world.
Truboard:	than our own. But we sontinue hopefully open minded in the search.
JosieTFP:	Tur, yes!  I find the diversity a real challenge to my own spiritual
JosieTFP:	growth -- a positive challenge.
Luuna TFP:	Tru - that, I think, is one of the touchstones of UU.
Luuna TFP:	Seeking one's path with an open
Luuna TFP:	mind toward other's paths

Alden7:		I did not catch your answer Dd, is arthritis cause by forces beyond our control?
Ddcanne:	Mine is, Alden.
Origen TFP:	Um are these people leaving or is something happening to them?
Truboard:	Right you are, Luana
Ddcanne:	I didn't choose my parents.  My uric acid condition is high regardless my diet.  (Gout)
JosieTFP:	Lorelei, at least, seemed here to stay.
Alden7:		Well, Dd, if you are at the mercy of forces beyond your control then your life would be
LoreleiCZ:	I got cut off!!!

Alden7:		fearful
Luuna TFP:	Welcome back, Lorelei
Treebeard1:	hi all
Ddcanne:	Nah, Alden!  I have prednisone!
JosieTFP:	Welcome back, Lorelei.  Some pillows for the punt experience.  (__) (__)
Ddcanne:	Beats god any day!
LoreleiCZ:	If I wasn't an atheist, I'd say God didn't want me to talk to you guys.

Alden7:		So you do control your reality.  Dd
JIMPRIN:	Hi...SPECIAL TOPIC ?
Alden7:		At least partially
Luuna TFP:	JIM - this is the regular, weekly, Unitarian Universalist chat
JosieTFP:	For you here who are UUs -- how do you see the Principles as different from a creed?
Ddcanne:	Of course... Did I say I didn't?  I have fun with reality, actually.
GWhitl8555:	Hello!  I;m not Jewish, but am very interested in the religion

Luuna TFP:	Jos - Well, we don't recite them nearly as much.
Luuna TFP:	But otherwise - Yes!
Ddcanne:	I don't know, Josie.  I don't believe in edicts... Get 'em everyday at work.Makes good trash
Alden7:		So the eternal question Dd would be where do the bad aspects of your reality come from?
Luuna TFP:	UU is not specifically Jewish, GWhit.
JosieTFP:	Most of us here are not Jewish, GW.
HalfWolfie:	Hiya folksies
Ddcanne:	There is no eternal question.
LoreleiCZ:	I think the principles are what we believe about people, not so much about defining a god

Alden7:		Well it is my question then.
Luuna TFP:	Lor - they don't talk much about theology
JosieTFP:	Hi, HalfWolfe.
JosieTFP:	Welcome back, EStiv.
MaryM22:	Thank you
Ddcanne:	Let's see... Hmmm. Intolerance, sexism, racism, Alden.  But, I repeat myself.
Luuna TFP:	But then, neither does the 8-fold path of Buddhism
Truboard:	A creed  is  a locked-in  A statemen of principle are more general and all encompassing
Alden7:		Those problems are all the same if the have the same source.

Ddcanne:	But, Alden, if I hate sexism and racism, I must be intolerant!  So the wheel turns.
GWhitl8555:	i agree
JosieTFP:	But the principles do exclude SOME people, don't they?  Those
JosieTFP:	who think human beings are by nature evil, for instance.
LoreleiCZ:	Creeds are meant to limit your beliefs about God or Christ so you fit in a certain religion
Truboard:	Sorry dinner guests are arruving. UUblessing on you all. A read Emerson !!!!!
JosieTFP:	Night, Tru.
Ddcanne:	I believe that human beings are.
Luuna TFP:	Jos - true.  Or those who think it's ok to treat others
Luuna TFP:	badly just because of their race, etc

GWhitl8555:	i think people should concentrate less on the "rules of their religion."
Luuna TFP:	Tru - take care!
Luuna TFP:	And more on ?  GW
JosieTFP:	Does anyone here think UUism is overly inclusive?
LoreleiCZ:	I think our principles do define a certain outlook on life and humanity.
Luuna TFP:	Jos - only when it include intolerant people!  <w>
Ddcanne:	Would you be interested, Josie, on the last few sentences concerning that, which I wrote?
Ddcanne:	In an essay earlier.
GWhitl8555:	Doing what they think is right, and concentrating on what fulfills them spiritually
Luuna TFP:	GW - sounds very UU

LoreleiCZ:	GWhit, I think you just defined UUism!
Partyrnt:	A lot of religions have a "salvation ethic" does UUism too?
Origen TFP:	Yep that sounds like it, Lorelei1
GWhitl8555:	sorry to be dumb, but I'm 16, what is UUism?
Ddcanne:	Salvation?  Salivation works more efficiently.
LoreleiCZ:	No, Party.
Luuna TFP:	Party - nope.  We have no creed or required belief in any theology

Origen TFP:	It's a religion Whit
Luuna TFP:	Unitarian Universalism is a liberal, non-creedal religion
Luuna TFP:	sharing common principles and tradition which supports
Luuna TFP:	personal freedom of belief.
Origen TFP:	Unitarian Universalism
Partyrnt:	:) then what's its purpose?
JosieTFP:	Party, in early Unitarianism they talked about "salvation by character."
Luuna TFP:	It evolved from there
Origen TFP:	It started out as Protestant but has evolved into an inclusive religion that no longer claims>>

JosieTFP:	One might say that noncreedalism is very old religion.  Remember when Amos (?)
Origen TFP:	>>Christian identity.
TimLawCA:	Hello Luuna
JosieTFP:	tells the people that God said the only three requirements were:
GWhitl8555:	Are there "places of worship" for such a religion?
JosieTFP:	To do justice, to love mercy, and to walk humbly beside your God?
Luuna TFP:	GW - sure.  UU churches or fellowships are found all over the U.S., Canada, and
Luuna TFP:	the rest of the world too
Origen TFP:	Sure, the structure is still very similar to the tradition Protestant ones
Partyrnt:	UUism seems to be pretty "strong" where I live in Knoxville TN ... I think they have 3 ..

Partyrnt:	... churches
Luuna TFP:	Jos - except for the "God" part, that sounds very UU
GWhitl8555:	Do they believe in a GOd?
Ddcanne:	Is two out of three okay, Josie???
Origen TFP:	Sunday worshipin a building reserved for that purpose, a minister etc
JosieTFP:	Luuna, the qualifier "your God" makes it interesting that way.
JosieTFP:	Very much "as you define it."
Luuna TFP:	GW - We have no required theology.
TimLawCA:	I have heard some Universalist churches maintain their Christian identity
LoreleiCZ:	Some do, some don't, Whit

JosieTFP:	Try "walk humbly with that you hold highest."
Luuna TFP:	Jos - hmmmm.  Like "Higher Power" ?
Origen TFP:	Yep Tim
JosieTFP:	Tim so do some Unitarian churches.  Many are decidedly not
JosieTFP:	Christian in identity, though.
Luuna TFP:	GW - Some UUs are theists, some aren't .  UUs include Buddhists, Jews, Christians
TimLawCA:	The local UU church here likes anything but Christianity
Partyrnt:	Ok... what's the different between UUism and Ethical Society?
Luuna TFP:	pagans, humanists, atheists, and others
GWhitl8555:	With people of such different beliefs, what is discussed or worshiped in a "church"?

Origen TFP:	Just as individuals get to pick what they believe so individual congregations can chose to orient
JosieTFP:	Ethical Societies ar a bit more focused -- on deed instead of beliefs.
Origen TFP:	themselves in a specific way too
JosieTFP:	And more uniformly humanistic.
Mkwaller:	Is there worship in Unitarian services?
JosieTFP:	Plus, Ethical Societies look much less Protestant on Sunday morning.
Luuna TFP:	GW - Oy!   It varies _immensely_ from church to church.
LoreleiCZ:	My UU church has prayer services every other Sunday now.
JosieTFP:	But there is a lot of overlap -- many UU churches, in fact,
Ddcanne:	Christian identity?Oops! Wrong room! Do you handle snakes?All good religions need serpeants.

JosieTFP:	modeled themselves on Ethical Societies.
Partyrnt:	:)
Origen TFP:	And Ethical Societs deliberately avoid "churchy terminology"
LoreleiCZ:	Dd, I ate rattlesnake once...but it was cooked.
Origen TFP:	The ministers are "leaders"... for example
Luuna TFP:	Dd - serpants are symbols of the Goddess, and as such are quite acceptable -
JosieTFP:	Ethical Societies evolved out of Reform Judaism, but influenced
JosieTFP:	by the Transcendentalists.
Partyrnt:	i see

Ddcanne:	Condemnation!  Don't you need to classify humans by color/sexuality?
Luuna TFP:	so long as they ar _not poisonous!  ;-)
JosieTFP:	Which does elucidate a bit of UU identity -- for UU congregations
JosieTFP:	are still pretty Protestant in tradition, even if they've moved
JosieTFP:	outside Christianity as a movement.
Ddcanne:	Coffers!  There must be coffers, to send missionaries to spread disease!
Luuna TFP:	Jos - yes.  It is a problem sometimes btwn those who treasure the Protestant
JosieTFP:	Dd, my son's Sunday school studied snakes.  Does that count?
LoreleiCZ:	Our UU is way out of the Christian tradition!!

Luuna TFP:	heritage, and those who want to be more inclusive/less similar to Protestant
Ddcanne:	Miracles!  We must have miracles!  Give us a sign!  (I'm getting out of hand.Stop me!)
GWhitl8555:	So there is no "Bible" type book, or rules of the "church", it's just what the people of the
GWhitl8555:	church choose to wroship?
Luuna TFP:	Dd - I've seen a miracle in a UU church! Hallulah!
JosieTFP:	Yes, Lorelei, so much so tht those who want to be in the diverse
JosieTFP:	UU church and remain themselves Christian, sometimes don't
PeasMakr:	What is this?
JosieTFP:	feel welcome.
Origen TFP:	::::hands Ddcanne a sign:::::
LoreleiCZ:	Josie, that

Luuna TFP:	t They almost ran ouof coffee but the c. pot kept on pouring!  Hallulah!
LoreleiCZ:	has happened in ours.
Ddcanne:	Enjoyed it,Luuna, Josie... I gotta go.  Thank you, Origen.  I need to go somewhere so I
JosieTFP:	GW -- "choose to worship" sounds a bit more casual than the
JosieTFP:	reality -- most are serious about their search for truth, meaning,
JosieTFP:	and the right.
Luuna TFP:	<looks around embarrasedly>  oops.  sorry
GWhitl8555:	what right?
EStiv73140:	goodnite dd
Origen TFP:	:-)
Luuna TFP:	Bye, Dd.
Ddcanne:	can be intolerant and have bread and grape juice!  Goodnight!  Good religion there!
JosieTFP:	Luuna, the story wasn't about the coffee and the fishes.  :-)
PeasMakr:	HELP ME!
PeasMakr:	What is a Unitarian Universalist?
Luuna TFP:	Well, as it's 9:00, and well into the chat, I'm gonna Post the Principles

Luuna TFP:	Hang on for several-line macro, folks!
PeasMakr:	Nay....what is Unitarianism?
Origen TFP:	Oh could you do your little UU in a nut shell thing for Peas, Luuna
PeasMakr:	Is it a religion?
Origen TFP:	Yep Peas
Luuna TFP:	The Principles of the Unitarian Universalist Association:
Luuna TFP:	We, the member congregations of the Unitarian
Luuna TFP:	Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote:
Luuna TFP:	(1) The inherent dignity and worth of every person;
Luuna TFP:	(2) Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

Luuna TFP:	(3) Acceptance of one another and encouragement to
Luuna TFP:	spiritual growth in our congregations;
Luuna TFP:	(4) A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
Luuna TFP:	(5) The right of conscience and the use of the
Luuna TFP:	democratic process within our congregations and in
Luuna TFP:	society at large;
Luuna TFP:	(6) The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and
Luuna TFP:	justice for all;
Luuna TFP:	(7) Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of
Luuna TFP:	which we are a part.

Origen TFP:	:-)
Luuna TFP:	<whew>
Luuna TFP:	That's as close as we get to a creed
EStiv73140:	very good luuna
PeasMakr:	Ok then so where is God in this?
Origen TFP:	It's a non-creedal, liberal religion Peas. God optional
PeasMakr:	<chuckle> God optional Eh?
Luuna TFP:	Peas - theology is not established in UU churches.  Everyone is free to follow
Luuna TFP:	their own path
Origen TFP:	But that doesn't mean that you can't feel strongly about yours if you have one!

EStiv73140:	walking humbly beside me pm
PeasMakr:	Well then...what is your own path?
PeasMakr:	Well then guess what?
GWhitl8555:	IF you can follow your own path, why did someone say everyone's welcome but Christians?
LoreleiCZ:	You know, it just dawned on me...you either get UU or you don't.  Hard to explain!
PeasMakr:	I am a devout Christian...this religion sounds quite new age to me...
Origen TFP:	Um no one said that Peas because it's not ture
PeasMakr:	GWhit you Christian?
Luuna TFP:	GW - Christians are welcome - UU developed out of 2 Christian tradtitions

SFrady5184:	Hi Luuna
Origen TFP:	true  4 U English speakers.
LoreleiCZ:	Whit, we are to welcome xtians, but some groups have trouble...none of us are perfect!
GWhitl8555:	yes actually
GWhitl8555:	but very liberal
Luuna TFP:	Peas - rather old age, actually
PeasMakr:	Liberal Christian <grin>
Yevgenee:	hello- what are ya talkin about?

PeasMakr:	Some weird stuff Yevgenee
Luuna TFP:	The original Universalists were, um - Ori?  help? In the early Christian era, anyway
LoreleiCZ:	I think there's backlash against the Xtian right.  So some bad feelings.
PeasMakr:	I have many quetions...
Yevgenee:	sounds weird alright :-O
Mkwaller:	Conservative Christian, depending on the defintion.
Luuna TFP:	Lor - some individual UUs have bad feelings, esp. if they fled to UU from strict
Luuna TFP:	Christian denominations

PeasMakr:	First of all where do you believe we come from and where do you believe where going?
Seekermike:	I greet all of you in the name of the Inner Light which guides us all!  :)
LoreleiCZ:	Luuna...like me!!!
Luuna TFP:	Peas - THERE IS NO REQUIRED THEOLOGY
Yevgenee:	mkwaller- what is a conservative Christian
Seekermike:	<------------------UU at heart
EStiv73140:	hi smike
Luuna TFP:	I can't answer for ALL UUs - only for me!
Seekermike:	Gimme a U
PeasMakr:	Seekemike if that is not new age I do not know what is...

Seekermike:	Gimme another U
EStiv73140:	U
PeasMakr:	No
Seekermike:	PeasMakr actually it is taken from John 1
Partyrnt:	Theology of the  conscience ....? maybe?
PeasMakr:	John 1?  John 1 what...
Mkwaller:	Ideally, Unitarian congregations would espouse a GOD, what God you ask?  All gods.
Seekermike:	"..the true light which gives light to EVERYONE WHO COMES INTO THE WORLD."
PeasMakr:	A verse maybe would help me deside this thing.
Seekermike:	<------can sling bible verses with the best of them  ;)

Origen TFP:	Yeah if everyone who uses the term 'light" in Religion is New Age, then the Gospel John is>>
Yevgenee:	Mkwaller what ARE you talkin about?
PeasMakr:	This light Seek is God if you hav not notised.
Luuna TFP:	Party - hmmm.  Nice formulation.  UUs are notorious for social action/concern
Seekermike:	God is hypothesis
Mkwaller:	And if there is a god, then he/she is in all of us.
Origen TFP:	>>Shirley Maclaine!
Luuna TFP:	Welcome back, Josie
Seekermike:	God is closer to us than we are to ourselves

JosieTFP:	Ouch, hard landing.  Glad to be back.
Origen TFP:	Punt Pillows for Josie!
PeasMakr:	God is a hyptothesis!!!
Seekermike:	The doctrine of the Inner Light is a Quaker belief, hardly New Age
PeasMakr:	GOD IS A FACT!
GWhitl8555:	What do UU people think happens after one dies?
Seekermike:	I respect your beliefs, Peas
Yevgenee:	stop ignoring me Mkwaller- what are you talkin about?
Mkwaller:	Yevgenee:  worship--otherwise it's a community forum.

Seekermike:	Peas porridge hot, Peas porridge cold.  <G>
Yevgenee:	thanks :)
JosieTFP:	Peas, we can share our different beliefs here without shouting at one another.
PeasMakr:	I would love to dook this out but I must be off!
Luuna TFP:	Peas - we appreciate that that's what you believe, but it is not UU doctrine
Eurph:	Evening, all.
LoreleiCZ:	Whit, well, we're positive we rot.
Luuna TFP:	Hi, Eurph
LoreleiCZ:	The rest is up for grabs.

RedhatReid:	Hi, Luuna
Seekermike:	Death is the fairest thing in the universe
GWhitl8555:	There is no belief in soul?
PeasMakr:	Hmmmm.....well then I shall pray for you all, not understanding you at any extent, but I
PeasMakr:	shall still pray
Luuna TFP:	GW - each UU has different beliefs on that.  Me, I'm not sure
LoreleiCZ:	Some believe in a soul.
Seekermike:	Death happens to everyone, everyone who dies is equally dead
Luuna TFP:	Mike - ever read Pratchett's "Reaper Man" ?
Seekermike:	Death is much fairer than the notion of a god who lets the rich get richer and poor poorer

Seekermike:	no Luuna
GWhitl8555:	Do some believe you die and your body simply rots and your "soul" in nonexistant?
Luuna TFP:	"No crown.  Only the harvest." - Death
JosieTFP:	GW, yes, many do believe that.  Though we do believe that one's life matters anyway.
Seekermike:	There may be a soul, I don't know
Luuna TFP:	It's fantasy, with pagan flavorings.
Seekermike:	Perhaps we are just animals
LoreleiCZ:	Yes, Whit.  That's where I stand right now.
Origen TFP:	I think Josie likes to say that we are compost!
GWhitl8555:	WHy doesn't ones life matter?

Partyrnt:	I read a book by Carl Rodger's call "On Becoming a Person" UUism seems to take a similiar...
RedhatReid:	Soul is not a thing, though.
Luuna TFP:	Ori - compost is great stuff!
Partyrnt:	.... stance on human growth and developement
Seekermike:	We DO matter!
JosieTFP:	GW, I said that our life DOES matter.  That death may end our
JosieTFP:	individual existence, but we live while we live, and our deeds live
JosieTFP:	on in the people we've affected.
Seekermike:	And we don't need a white man with a robe and a long white beard to make us so
Origen TFP:	Were would we be without it Luuna!!!!!

JosieTFP:	Party, many UUs were fans of Carl Rogers.
GWhitl8555:	If everyone believed their life didn;t matter, do you know how evil people would be? The cri
GWhitl8555:	me?
RedhatReid:	Soul is the quality of being in relation to others...
Seekermike:	Perhaps soul is function not a form.....???  agree?
JosieTFP:	GW, it kind of explains why it is so important to affirm that all
JosieTFP:	human beings have inherent worth and dignity.
Origen TFP:	Um,,,believing that your life matters is different from believing in an after life, GW

RedhatReid:	I would say all BEINGS have inherent worth and dignity.
LoreleiCZ:	GW, did you see the principles.  All life is respected.
GWhitl8555:	no, I had a phone call.
JosieTFP:	Red, I have a hard time believing that viruses do.
Seekermike:	Why was I denounced as New Age when I simply mentioned Quaker doctrine?  :\
Luuna TFP:	GW - would you like an email with them?
LoreleiCZ:	Whoops, e-mail Whit the principles!
JosieTFP:	Mike, just because one person doesn't like it doesn't make it so.
Origen TFP:	Quakers go back to the 18th century, btw
GWhitl8555:	Yes

Seekermike:	I know Origen
RedhatReid:	Principles for me, too. Okay?
Luuna TFP:	Redhat - the 7th Principle?  The interdependent web of all existance
Mkwaller:	I think that living to an old age is important--only if you are alive.
JosieTFP:	New Age becomes just a way to name-call.
Seekermike:	And as far as I know, Quakers, are "real" Christians
GWhitl8555:	Are there any artistic forms associated withUU such as music or art?
Seekermike:	<-------has lost 13 lbs since Xmas...so is there less "soul" in me now?  <G>

JosieTFP:	GW, many famous UUs were artists and writers.  Mostly writers
JosieTFP:	-- we are kind of wordy.
Mkwaller:	Do you all realize we are giving language tags to things we cannot name?
JosieTFP:	{{{{{Seekermike}}}}}
LoreleiCZ:	Seeker, I found the 13 pounds you lost!
Mkwaller:	who cares about names?
RedhatReid:	Yes, Luuna. Although, I'm not sure a virus is a "being" like a human or a cat.
Origen TFP:	No all Quakers are Christian, Seeker.
Seekermike:	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   good vibes in the Front Porch now!  :)
JosieTFP:	Mk, any other way you'd suggest chatting about them?

Seekermike:	{{{{{{{{{{{Josie}}}}}}}}}}}}
GWhitl8555:	I meant in the worship part.  What goes on in the "church"
Seekermike:	true Origen
Luuna TFP:	Mk - the Tao that can be named is not the Tao
DChase3331:	Thank you.
ZenFalcon:	He who knows, does not speak
JosieTFP:	GW, usually: some community singing (hymns), a sermon or address,
RichUz:		Trying to find a theme in all this.  ????
Luuna TFP:	ZF - :-)

JosieTFP:	announcements, a joys-and-concerns segment, a collection -- definitely "church."
GWhitl8555:	yea
JosieTFP:	Oops, forgot the readings.
Seekermike:	I envision all kinds of labels flying around and people grabbing them and sticking them
Seekermike:	on each other....
JosieTFP:	Rich, topic is "What is UUism"
Origen TFP:	Yeah, Quaker and UU can be very similar but with the Quakersyou notice right away how different you
Seekermike:	...why not STOP the labelling and START loving!  :)
Mkwaller:	Well Josie it is hard, but I am sick of liberal and consrvative in religion and politics.
Origen TFP:	they are

LoreleiCZ:	Whit, we have speakers from the community every other week, pastor is shared with another UU
Seekermike:	Origen, how so?
Seekermike:	<------------Interested in Quakerism
JosieTFP:	Mike, as long as the labels don't have permanent glue I don't
JosieTFP:	have a problem with that.
Luuna TFP:	Rich - join the chaos.  "UUs in search of defination"
Seekermike:	true Josie
Origen TFP:	Us follow a much more tradition form of service, so it might take yo a while to realize that you are
Seekermike:	<<sticking "neat lady" label on Josie>>
ZenFalcon:	Does UU have any "scripture" etc?

Origen TFP:	not in aChristian church
Seekermike:	oic
Luuna TFP:	Zen - yup.  All of 'em.  ;-)
Origen TFP:	Well Quakers have the silent meetings Seeker
Mkwaller:	Sorry, let us be simplistic.  God?
RichUz:		For a good time, call the UU Church of Greater Bridgeport!
ZenFalcon:	All of em? Hmm.
JosieTFP:	"liberal religion" as in UUism is a pretty precise term: it means
RedhatReid:	Good answer Luuna. ;-)
JosieTFP:	that there are no creeds, that freedom/liberty of individual

JosieTFP:	conscience is primary, and that we tend to interpret our
Seekermike:	I believe in taking the best of each of the world's great faiths
JosieTFP:	scriptures non-literally.
Seekermike:	Is that not the Loose Leaf Bible concept?
Luuna TFP:	That is, UUs can use any scripture they find meaningful, whether it be the Bible or
WriterWrks:	Hello friends!!!!!
RedhatReid:	You, too, Josie.
Origen TFP:	No format at all..people just get up and speak as the spirit moves them in the Quaker silent meeting
Luuna TFP:	The Dhammapada or Shakespeare

Seekermike:	<------------has read Bhagavad Gita...beautiful
Luuna TFP:	or Star Trek!
Seekermike:	Star Trek has many lessons to teach us!  :)
Seekermike:	beam me up Scotty
JosieTFP:	Luuna: or even (gasp) Babylon 5!
ZenFalcon:	Dhammapada is wonderful! So are the Tao and Gita
JosieTFP:	Mike: Or, "I'm a doctor, not a mechanic."
Seekermike:	rehi all
Seekermike:	He's dead Jim

RichUz:		Scripture?  I got a lot out of The Log from the Sea of Cortez.
Origen TFP:	Generally a UU service has a much more conventioanal format than a Quaker meeting
JosieTFP:	Origen, I think most UUs are too gregarious to tolerate as much
JosieTFP:	silence as Quakers or Zen Buddhists do.
ZenFalcon:	What about incompatible religions? How can they be reconciled?
Partyrnt:	Engage :)
Seekermike:	Perhaps GOD is SILENCE
Origen TFP:	True Josie
Luuna TFP:	Ori - more traditionally Protestant
ZenFalcon:	Islam and Judaism? It would be hard to reconcile those two..

JosieTFP:	Zen, if one of them says it is The Only True Faith, they may not
JosieTFP:	be able to, except (possibly) in the realm of ethics.
Luuna TFP:	Oops - the punt gods ate Mike.
Seekermike:	LAL (data's daughter):  I love you father.
Seekermike:	DATA:  I cannot return your love.
Origen TFP:	Zen what seems "incompatible" to you might just be delightfull paradoxical to me
Seekermike:	LAL:  Then I will love for BOTH OF US.  :)....................
Eurph:		Our UU Fellowship has programs on Sunday morning which are often like college lectures, or a session
ZenFalcon:	Yes, Origen, I agree
JosieTFP:	(Mike: sounds like classical codependency to me.  :-)

Luuna TFP:	Zen - everyone - if you would like an email with UU Principles and info, just let
Seekermike:	LOL JOsie
LoreleiCZ:	Zen, peopleof different religions do go to UU churches.
Origen TFP:	and to you what might be paradoxical to me migh unreconcilable......
Luuna TFP:	one of us wearing the "TFP" badges know
Seekermike:	My church (Baptist) was taken over by evangelicals...pisses me off!
JosieTFP:	(TFP = The Front Porch)
Seekermike:	pardon my Hebrew

Luuna TFP:	Lor/Zen - a number of UUs, and UU ministers, are Buddhist
MtBike10:	Hi all!
Origen TFP:	and all our metaphisical knowledge may be imperfict of merely symbolic
Eurph:		with a local or state politician, authors, etc. The kids, meanwhile, are in Sunday School.
WriterWrks:	Going for awhile friends ... may be back!
JosieTFP:	Thanks Mike for catching it -- this is a "g" room.
WriterWrks:	Bye!!!
GWhitl8555:	bye!
Seekermike:	sorry
RichUz:	UUism is the only religion that openly welcomes atheists.

Seekermike:	<<blush>>
Origen TFP:	And we may,therefore, all be wrong to some extent
ZenFalcon:	If UU is so flexible and independent, what is the point of organizing at all?
Luuna TFP:	Bye, WW.  Merry Part
JosieTFP:	Zen, perhaps because we realize that by connecting our searches, we enrich them?
Seekermike:	Anyway I get very angry at the thought of the "takeover"
LoreleiCZ:	I know a couple UU Buddhists, some Jews, some pagans...
Eurph:		To be with like-minded people, perhaps?
JosieTFP:	Mike, it sounds like a violation of deep Baptist principles, which
JosieTFP:	are also about freedom of conscience.

RichUz:		Zenfalc:  Point of ofrganizing is to make sure its possiiible for the flexible, independent folks get
Seekermike:	<------has cut WAY down on AOL bill....proof of God's existence.  <G>
Seekermike:	true Josie
RichUz:		together.
Origen TFP:	People like to come togther in an atmosphere of mutual respect Zen
Luuna TFP:	For sharing experience, and caring, and lottsa good discussion groups!
LoreleiCZ:	I live in a conservative area and it's a support group for me!
Seekermike:	Priesthood of the believer and all that
JosieTFP:	Don't forget prophethood of all believers, too.
Seekermike:	Baptists are big on the primacy of individual conscience.....

ZenFalcon:	What about Krishnamurti who constantly warned about never accepting spiritual organiz..
Seekermike:	.....it's just one more step to becoming a UU
RichUz:	Though I am not so sure all of us are either flexible or independent ...
JosieTFP:	Mike -- at least they used to be.
Seekermike:	true Josie
Luuna TFP:	Rich - true.  The real world must always fall short of the ideal
Origen TFP:	Well that's his opinion, Zen...accept it if you like, don't if you don't!
JosieTFP:	Zen, K. has a pretty well-organized effort to sell his books.
JosieTFP:	Which, don't mistake me, I find very good.
Origen TFP:	I mean I could give you a list of famous and impressive people who supported organized religion

ZenFalcon:	Yes, K was fairly hypocritical..
RichUz:		I can't speak for the world.  Only myself.
LoreleiCZ:	Zen, I know a UU that believes that too.  He just attends every other week.
Luuna TFP:	Hmm.  Well, for myself, better a disorganized religion that encourages me to find
Luuna TFP:	my own path, like UU, if any religion at all
Luuna TFP:	And I do find w/in myself some need for religion
RichUz:		Luana -- Right.  The nifty thing about UUism is it lets me listen to others.  The guy who shaves me ..
RichUz:		gets pretty boring after a while.
Luuna TFP:	More precisely - for a religious community
Origen TFP:	Punt monster ate Josie again!!!!

Luuna TFP:	Poor Josie
Origen TFP:	:-(
Seekermike:	Send nice thoughts to me....I am in contact with a California firm about a job.  :)
ZenFalcon:	I think its amazing how spiritually illiterate most Americans are.. We know little of East..
Seekermike:	Most Americans just accept the religion of their childhood.
RichUz:		Do we have to respect the worth and dignity of punt monster?
Origen TFP:	::::nicethoughtsnicethoughtsnicethoughtsnicethoughts::::
Seekermike:	thx Origen
Seekermike:	rehi Josie

LoreleiCZ:	That's one thing about UU, Zen.  They do incorporate Eastern religions.
ZenFalcon:	..little of Eastern ideas, yet can claim a doorway to truth, whatever that might be
Luuna TFP:	Welcome back, Josie!
Eurph:		Good luck, Mike.
Seekermike:	Falcon, isn't Christianity basically an Eastern religion?
ZenFalcon:	Huh?
Seekermike:	Jesus was Middle Eastern
Seekermike:	thx Eurph
Luuna TFP:	Mike - a bit different from what we think of as modern Eastern religions, though
Seekermike:	oic

Seekermike:	hello Mauudie
ZenFalcon:	2000 years ago Israel was pretty far west (not including the Incas, Olmecs..)
Seekermike:	Good Lawdy Miss Mauudie
Seekermike:	oic Zen
JosieTFP:	The "Middle East" and its religions are definitely Western.
RichUz:		It always seemed to me that christianity was was a greco-roman polytheism that paid lip service ...
Seekermike:	wheeeeeeee

Mauudie:	cinnamon cookies for all!! Enjoy :-) @@@@@@@@@@-->
JosieTFP:	rehi to you too Mike
Seekermike:	rehi Luuna
RichUz:	to middle eastern monotheism.
Seekermike:	It's fun to use Favorite Places
Luuna TFP:	Mmmm.  Thanks, Mau!
Seekermike:	thx
JosieTFP:	Rich, it was certainly influenced by polytheism, which was the
JosieTFP:	rule in the middle east.
Seekermike:	Christianity is a mosaic of ancient religions incorporated into Judaism

Seekermike:	Mithraism, Zoroastrianism
Seekermike:	paganism
Luuna TFP:	Well, and how did that affect the development of U and U, and modern UUism?
ZenFalcon:	Where would UFO theories/alien lifeforms fit into the major world religions?
JosieTFP:	So, then, Mike, would you say UUism a logical next step of Christianity?  :-)
Luuna TFP:	(trying to get back on track)
Seekermike:	sounds good to me, Josie
RichUz:		The trinity, saints, angels, etc aren't much different from roman deities.
Seekermike:	true Rich
Seekermike:	Pagans have the great mother goddess; Catholics have Mary

JosieTFP:	Zen, I think those are pretty independent of the religions.  Unless
JosieTFP:	you compare them to the beliefs in demons of other ages.
Seekermike:	Pagans have a variety of spirits governing the forces of life; Catholics have saints.
LoreleiCZ:	I think people believe in aliens because they want to think there's "something more""
LoreleiCZ:	Same reason people have religion
JosieTFP:	Luuna, if you accept that Unitarianism and Universalism have
JosieTFP:	very deep roots in early Christianity, then those early influences
JosieTFP:	would definitely still have effects.
Seekermike:	Aliens are like angels or demons of ancient times
ZenFalcon:	I would suggest that the "reality" of a religious experience is no more "real" than..

Seekermike:	No proof of their existence, just accounts
Mauudie:	Indeed, Josie, I believe you have a point.  Space aliens are the new angels and demons from the sky.
JosieTFP:	Mike, Zen, they even are drawn very similarly to medieval demon images.
Seekermike:	true Josie
Seekermike:	}:)
Luuna TFP:	Jos - yes, true.  What influences can we see in modern UU?
Seekermike:	O:)
ZenFalcon:	..many of the reputable reports from abductees
RichUz:		All religions, UUism included, seem to have the same roots in fundamental human nature.
JosieTFP:	Very early Christianity was probably not creedal.

Seekermike:	Zen, like Jonah being swallowed by the sea monster
Seekermike:	Josie, the earliest Christians were "Jesus people."
ZenFalcon:	Something to shatter our fears
JosieTFP:	They were followers, do-ers, rather than believers.
Seekermike:	Does the UU Assoc. have a stand on pornography???
Seekermike:	True, Josie, look at the Gospel of Mark?
Origen TFP:	Well Judaism isn't creedal so why would the first Christians be creedal?

Luuna TFP:	Rich - most (all?) religions seem to have some version of the Golden Rule
JosieTFP:	Mike, I'm not sure there's an official resolution on pornography;
JosieTFP:	most UUs are for bot
KDNB:		Just have a few minutes.....
Seekermike:	Mark focuses on Jesus' deeds not his words
JosieTFP:	both freedom of speech, and respect for all people (including women)
SpecOps96:	hello...its me taichidee using my husbands account..ha ha ha
Eurph:		What are the 10 Commandments if not creedal?
Seekermike:	Perhaps DIVINE WISDOM manifested itself in the "Golden rule" thru all religions

JosieTFP:	Luuna: re Golden Rule -- yes, all religions we know have some
JosieTFP:	version of it -- though they do differ in some significant ways.
RichUz:		Luana -- It makes society work better. We seem to be a very social primate.  Relig. is nothing if ...
Mauudie:	Hi, Dee!
Seekermike:	<<passing out halos>>  OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Luuna TFP:	Eurph - they are more a set of moral guidelines.  Not a theology
RichUz:		... not social.  Especilally coffee hour.
SpecOps96:	hi mauudie
JosieTFP:	Perhaps the development of ethics like the Golden Rule are

JosieTFP:	required to sustain a community long enough to develop a
JosieTFP:	religion.
Eurph:	Okay, Luuna.
Seekermike:	I think all religions are guesses.....
Eurph:		Thanks for the halo, Mike.
RichUz:		Mike -- guesses about?
Seekermike:	Eurph, let me know if it needs adjusting.  ;)
Partyrnt:	O:-)<> Me in my new halo and tie
Seekermike:	life after death, the origin of the universe, the meaning of life
Origen TFP:	:_|  <-------cubism!!!!!

Seekermike:	very nice Partyrnt
Seekermike:	:]
Luuna TFP:	Mike - guesses or hypotheses, -- UU at least lets us try 'em on until we find one
Luuna TFP:	that fits
Partyrnt:	ori :)
Seekermike:	me too Luuna
RichUz:		Mike -- thats what I was afraid you'ld say.  I think those are really the trivial aspects.
Eurph:		[]<----Cubism halo.
Seekermike:	explain, Rich

RichUz:		... Main benefits are social.
Seekermike:	I see your point
Origen TFP:	:_]  <------ Happy Cubism
Seekermike:	so are the drawbacks
JFrank3201:	I would ask why do Unitarians use the bible as a basis to defend their beliefs when they
RichUz:		Derived from 60 million years of primate evolution.
JFrank3201:	consider the bible invalid?
Luuna TFP:	Rich - the 2nd Principle?! "Justice, equity, and compassion..."
Origen TFP:	Not all UU's do JFrankl
Seekermike:	Religion has done as much harm as good because it is a human creation

Seekermike:	+O:)               halo with beanie
JosieTFP:	JF, for most UUs the Bible is just one of many books with a long
JosieTFP:	and valuable human tradition.
Luuna TFP:	JFrank - modern UUs are not like old Unitarians, Frank
Origen TFP:	and they don't necessarily consider it "invalid" just not of Divine Origin
QMaevLa:	Hi. lost my connection..so to speak
RichUz:		Mike -- I am convinced the good religion does far outweighs the harm.  Orders of magnitude.
Origen TFP:	Which seems to have been about how Tom Jefferson felt about it
Seekermike:	The Bible has gold in it, but that doesn't mean everything in the Bible is gold!

JosieTFP:	Welcome back, Maev.
Seekermike:	rehi Maev
Luuna TFP:	QMaev - it's been going around.  The punt gods are really at work tonight
JosieTFP:	Most UUs use the Bible less than the total of other "scriptures"
Seekermike:	<---------------------a quiet person in real life
JosieTFP:	especially on Sunday.
Seekermike:	punt demons
Seekermike:	We need the AOL exorcists
QMaevLa:	Spirituality seems like the Good but I have real questions about religion as more good than bad
KDNB:		How long as Unitarianism been around?

Origen TFP:	But I know at least on UU who believes that UUism is true to the reall spirit of the Old Testament
Origen TFP:	Prophets
JosieTFP:	KD depends on how you count.  Many early Christians were "Unitarian"
Origen TFP:	"I seek mercy not sacrifice"
Seekermike:	Christianity has been a diverse faith from the beginning
JosieTFP:	and some were also "Universalist" -- but as denominations
JosieTFP:	organized, only about 200 years.
Origen TFP:	Well since about he late Reformation KD

Mauudie:	In what respect is UU true to spirit of OT, Origen?
RichUz:		See how peaceful the world seems on a Sunday Morning.  Good.
Luuna TFP:	And modern UUism, in today's form, began in 1961 when the Us and Us merged
KDNB:		Get back to me when it has stood the test of 2000 years...night all
JosieTFP:	As a named and lively trend, just about to the second round of
Seekermike:	bye KD
JosieTFP:	the Reformation (during Calvin's lifetime).
LoreleiCZ:	Guys, I gotta go...my eyes are crossing.  It's been a long day.
Seekermike:	bye Lorelei
Mauudie:	Night, Lor!

JosieTFP:	Gee, what religion really looks much like it did 2000 years ago?
Luuna TFP:	KDNB - uh, some forms have
Luuna TFP:	Night, Lor!
Origen TFP:	Night Lorelei
JFrank3201:	What do you all think the one unique aspect of Christianity is?
TaiChiDee:	hello...got punted
Seekermike:	JFrank, Jesus is the center of Christianity
Seekermike:	no other religions gives him primacy
JosieTFP:	(Maybe more Unitarians WOULD have been aruond for most of

Luuna TFP:	TaiChi - back under yr own name!
JosieTFP:	the last 2000 years but the larger church majority sometimes
JosieTFP:	dealt with them with wars and killing!)
RichUz:		Personal eternal salvation is the center of Christianity
JFrank3201:	Allah is the center of Islam, Buddah is the center of Buddism etc,
Luuna TFP:	Jos - the idea, and individuals, anyway.
JosieTFP:	The idea of god and human incarnate in the same being -- once
JosieTFP:	in history -- that seems to be unique to Xty.

Towsui:		Hello Luuna!
Towsui:		any chat going on right now?
Seekermike:	Josie, yes the once part is important...Hindus believe in atmans throughout history
JosieTFP:	JF, there are three centers to Buddhism, really: the Buddha, the sangha, the dharma.
JFrank3201:	All other religious philosophies proport that a human can perfect himself and gain eternal
Seekermike:	What's sangha?
Luuna TFP:	Hi again, Eurph
Eurph:		Got kicked off-line.
JosieTFP:	The sangha is the Buddhist religious community.

Eurph:		Hi, again.
Seekermike:	JFrank, Hinduism teaches that eventually all souls will escapt the cycle of death and rebirt
Seekermike:	h
Luuna TFP:	We must propiatiate the punt gods.
Seekermike:	oic Josie
JFrank3201:	life or that humans are gods within themselves.
JosieTFP:	All Buddhists (or all the sects I know) affirm all three as basic.
Luuna TFP:	::::burning virtual incense:::::
Seekermike:	LOL Luuna
Eurph:		Mike: I lost my halo. Got another?

Towsui:		heheh.  Luuna
Luuna TFP:	~)--|   Hi, GlennK.  Tonight's UU chat topic is What is
Luuna TFP:	Unitarian Universalism?
Seekermike:	O  sure Eurph
Towsui:		so... what is it?
Towsui:		:)
GlennK5561:	Got Me?
Eurph:		Give the punt gods a halo!

Eurph:		Thanks, Mike.
AslansPet:	Maybe this was asked, but how does UU reconcile the deity of Jesus?
Trabener:	Hi Luuna!
Eurph:	O
JosieTFP:	UUism took the idea of god within all humans, too, and went
JosieTFP:	some interesting new places with the idea.
JFrank3201:	Christianity professes that to regain our status with God we must be perfect
Seekermike:	I feel god is a hypothesis
JFrank3201:	are there any perfect people online here tonight?
Luuna TFP:	Tow - good question!  ;-)    That's what we're working on

TaiChiDee:	jfrank...uh oh...that sounds tough
JosieTFP:	Aslans: most Christian UUs (which are not all UUs) would say
Towsui:		Origen.. cool name!  :)
JosieTFP:	that whatever deity Jesus had, so do all other human beings.
Origen TFP:	Folks, if you would like to be on the mailing list for this chat, E-mail or IM Mauudie.
Eurph:		Only Mike - he's qualified to pass out halos.
Seekermike:	The idea that God cares about humanity is a very shaky hypothesis
Origen TFP:	thanks Towsui!
Seekermike:	OOOOO    thanks Eurph
AslansPet:	JFrank:  How does one get perfect according to Christianity?

Seekermike:	Next I'll be selling indulgences.  ;)
JosieTFP:	"If God exists, we can't expect very much from him."  The Dalai Lama
Seekermike:	agree Josie
JFrank3201:	Wonderful question, we cannot perfect ourselves, we deserve condemnation.
Seekermike:	Perhaps god is Fate, the All, the Inevitable
JosieTFP:	(someone else quoted that a week or two ago)
Seekermike:	Josie, we sure don't GET very much from him!
Luuna TFP:	"And you who seek to know me; know that the seeking
Luuna TFP:	and yearning will avail you not unless you know the
Luuna TFP:	Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within

Luuna TFP:	yourself, you will never find it without." --The Charge of
Luuna TFP:	the Goddess
GlennK5561:	The Christians had a easier time selling Jesus as a GOG man in the Roman & Greek world then the Jewish
AslansPet:	Josie:  How does the UU reconcile Jesus' exclusive claim to deity in the Gospels?
GlennK5561:	GOD Man
RichUz:		Perhaps god is just something we created.  Like a Ford.  Or a VDub.
JosieTFP:	Aslans, almost all UUs believe the gospels are stories written

JosieTFP:	by deeply religious but imperfect human beings.  The claims
Seekermike:	Jesus probably said only about 18% of what the Gospels give him credit for
JosieTFP:	may not be accurately reported.
GlennK5561:	Jews did go for the Greek/Roman pantheon.
GlennK5561:	didn't go
Luuna TFP:	Aslans - UU has no set theology or creed.  So, while
Luuna TFP:	UUs might have individual answers for that, UU as a
Luuna TFP:	demonination doesn't
Seekermike:	The 4 canonical gospels have many differences, esp. John
AslansPet:	Josie:  Do you know where they base this belief about the Gospels?

Luuna TFP:	UUs often have wildly varying answers to any theological question!
GlennK5561:	They   had an abstract Desert God. The Romans and Greeks alreadt acceptred the idea of Godmen.
JosieTFP:	But, Luuna, the absence of a statement on the deity of Jesus is itself significant.
JosieTFP:	Aslans, have you read much lately on the research on the Bible?
Seekermike:	The idea of a divine king is nothing new to religion
JosieTFP:	Have you heard of Thomas Jefferson's Bible?
Luuna TFP:	Jos - but it speaks about the denomination as a whole, not about
AslansPet:	Is anyone out there a UU or are we just discussing them?
GlennK5561:	Christianity is 1 part Judaism and 2 parts Greco/Roman paganism glossed over.
Luuna TFP:	any particular individual UU.

EPIKLESIS:	Seeker...18%?  Which critical method unearthed that figure?
Seekermike:	The Jesus Seminar
QMaevLa:	Myself, I prefer the idea of the Bodhisattva to Godmen.
JosieTFP:	Many here, Aslan.
UnBroken99:	hi Luuna
Origen TFP:	I don't know Aslan...where does one get this idea ththat the be is anything but a book?
Trabener:	A new one here...
Luuna TFP:	And vice versa.  Any particular UU can only speak for
Luuna TFP:	themselves, theologically, not all UUs

GlennK5561:	Look at the whole Catholic saints set up it's just the old Roman Gods in a new form.
Seekermike:	true Glenn
EPIKLESIS:	OK, but what critical method:  form criticism, redaction, et al?
GlennK5561:	The Pope is the Emperor etc.
Seekermike:	unknown, EPIKLESIS
Luuna TFP:	UUDRE - you've just made it to the end of the chat! {{}}
AslansPet:	Josie:  Yes, I have read alot on the Jesus Seminar, and a lot of their scholarship has been
EPIKLESIS:	Glenn.  that's ignorance par excellance

AslansPet:	caled into question
JosieTFP:	Epi -- many of those techniques, combined.
JFrank3201:	Unitarians and other religions philosophies exalt man as being able to become his own god
Seekermike:	<------------------NOT my own god!
Partyrnt:	Usually there is a leader of a religion ... is there one for UUims? or does it evolve from..
JosieTFP:	Aslans, so has the scholarship of the literalists.
Seekermike:	God is outside yet within me
Mauudie:	Will we be repairing to the UUCafe?
Partyrnt:	... Jesus
Eurph:		Huh? Where'd you here that, Frank?

Luuna TFP:	Mau - soon
QMaevLa:	I wish that I could have tuned in earlier. It always take s so long to get the babyy to bed.
Trabener:	Actually EPIKLESIS, I've also read that very little in the Bible is directly attributable to
Trabener:	Jesus
JosieTFP:	Party, the congregation is the center of the religion, in terms of authority.
Trabener:	And I did not get it from the "Jesus Seminar"
Seekermike:	The Bible contains the "Jesus Myth", the cycle of stories that grew up after his death
QMaevLa:	UUCafe?
GlennK5561:	No it's not alot of early Roman Catholicism is built on the Roman cultural experience not the Jewish e
JFrank3201:	If you can gain eternal life for yourself, then you are your own God.

Eurph:	I've been UU all my life, Frank, and that
GlennK5561:	experience.
Trabener:	I believe I got it from a book by John Shelby Spong, an Episcopalian Bishop
UUDRE:	Have we touched much on the universalist tradition?
JosieTFP:	Yes, the Jesus Seminar is but the latest in nearly 200 years of
JosieTFP:	scholarship.  Not the only study!
EPIKLESIS:	Well, that's not enough of an answer.  All can't dtermine that figure.  they're not made to
Mauudie:	UUism is more about community than about beliefs, anyway.  Belief is considered a personal matter.
Eurph:	'is the first time I've heard THAT.
JosieTFP:	So, Aslan, what do you think of Jefferson

EStiv73140:	mauddie , where is the cafe?
JesseBC:	hello
JosieTFP:	That is, of Jefferson's bible?
RichUz:		Mauudie -- BINGO!
GlennK5561:	Jesus ironically was put to death by the same folks that co-oped his whole experience.
JFrank3201:	Do Unitarians believe that by being good they can perfect themselves to gain eternal life?
AslansPet:	Josie:  I like Jefferson, and I think most Christian's should do what Jefferson did with his
Mauudie:	UUCafe will be a member room, and I will open it shortly.
Seekermike:	bye all
AslansPet:	Bible because most say they believe it but ignore a lage part of it.
JosieTFP:	Glenn: "If Jesus was to preach like he preached at Galilee, they
JosieTFP:	would lay Jesus Christ in his grave."  Woody Guthrie song
Luuna TFP:	Bye, Mike
EStiv73140:	bye mike
Mauudie:	Some do, JFrank.

Trabener:	JFrank--as a very new UU, I don't think most UU's believe in eternal life.
QMaevLa:	How to join in?
JosieTFP:	Aslan, which is exactly what Jefferson did-- cut out the parts he thought were bunk.
GlennK5561:	From the Jewish pt. of view Christianity grew from totally alien roots to the jewish experience.
Origen TFP:	Folks, if you would like to be on the mailing list for this chat, E-mail or IM Mauudie.
Luuna TFP:	QMaev - join in the UU Cafe?
Partyrnt:	bye mike
Eurph:		Mauudie: how do we get to it?
QMaevLa:	Yes

JosieTFP:	Cafe: choose Rooms, then Member Rooms, then Create, then type UU Cafe.
JFrank3201:	Will there be an existence in which there is final justice, no pain or sorrow or are we just
UUDRE:	I think all new UUs should have to take The Haunting Church curriculum
Luuna TFP:	To get to the Cafe, GoTo Keyword
Luuna TFP:	"aol://2719:61-2-uucafe".
WomanOfWar:	Hello Luuna
GlennK5561:	Jesus was a Jew but Jews had no place in the world built on his teachings.
Luuna TFP:	Either way will get you there
AslansPet:	Josie:I was speaking facitiously about modern Xtns, but how did Jefferson discover what was

AslansPet:	bunk and what was not
JFrank3201:	wandering in the wilderness for no reason.
UUDRE:	to help divide what they bring with them from what actually happens in UU churches
EPIKLESIS:	Glenn, Xnity was born of Judaism and grew differently only as a response to Jewish rejection
RichUz:	G'nite folks.
Trabener:	WomanOfWar--what a great name!
GlennK5561:	Likewise jesus had no input into the Jewish experience that was positive.
WomanOfWar:	Thanks Trabener
QMaevLa:	See you there
JFrank3201:	I would say that if there is no afterlife in which all things finally fit together than life

JosieTFP:	Aslans, he used common sense.  He cut out all the miracles,
JosieTFP:	put it into one story, cut out most of John, and left the story to end
JosieTFP:	with the stone rolled in front of the tomb.
EPIKLESIS:	Clarify?
GlennK5561:	Both results were unfortunate.
JFrank3201:	would be meaningless, and if it were we never could know that it had no meaning.
GlennK5561:	Islam didn't make such a radical break and this was wise.
JosieTFP:	JF, then doesn't that mean we might as well find our meaning before we die?
UUDRE:	I think we should deal delicately with Jefferson given GA's recent gaffe
Origen TFP:	That's basically what Sartre said JFrank.  that is what he meant by the "absurd".

PowerChat:	 
PowerChat:	*** Entered The Front Porch on 04/25/96 at 9:58 PM ***
PowerChat:	 
Origen TFP:	Hi Guide
AslansPet:	Josie:The earlist Gospel was written 30 yrs after Jesus' death, if they had been so wrong
JosieTFP:	Gee, UUDRE, I'm not asking us to dress up in the style of Jefferson
Guide RWS:	Hiyas!! How's everything in here? :D
JosieTFP:	's time.
Luuna TFP:	Well, folks, we've come to the end of another UU chat
UUDRE:	Check out the book, The Radical Jew, about Saul/Paul

Eurph:		Night, all, see you in the Cafe. (Have to get off so my fiancee's mother can call)
GlennK5561:	It would be possible today for Jews to accept Jesus as a great rabbi and include some of his teachings
UUDRE:	new insites
Luuna TFP:	We'll be back with another UU Chat here on the Porch
Luuna TFP:	next Thursday at 8:30 pm ET.
JFrank3201:	When someone says something has meaning, they must have a standard to which they
Luuna TFP:	IM or e-mail me or Mauudie if you want to be on the
Eurph:		It's been great being here.
Luuna TFP:	mailing list for this Chat.
AslansPet:	one of the Jewish politicians would have pointed it out.

JosieTFP:	Aslan, standards for how to write a story were quite different then.
JosieTFP:	Bye all!
Luuna TFP:	**********       ~)--|       **********       ~)--|       **********
QMaevLa:	Thank you and Blessed Be
GlennK5561:	But it wouldn't be possible the other way because of the cliams to divinty for hi
EStiv73140:	nite all
Luuna TFP:	We're going to the UU Cafe now.
AslansPet:	Josie:  I am an evangelical, but it was great talking to you.
EPIKLESIS:	If Islam didn't make such a radical break, why did the earliest Muslims slaughter Jews

JFrank3201:	judge something as meaningful or meaningless.  If we did not know what "meaning" was
GlennK5561:	m that no Jew can ever accept.
JosieTFP:	Aslans: actually, there is little comment at the time at all, mostly
JosieTFP:	pretty skeptical.
Luuna TFP:	**********       ~)--|       **********       ~)--|       **********
Luuna TFP:	**********       ~)--|       **********       ~)--|       **********
JFrank3201:	we never could no life lacked it.
Origen TFP:	Night all thanks
Luuna TFP:	Goodnight, All!  Merry Part and Merry Meet Again!
Partyrnt:	Night all.. .I might see you in the Cafe ...