Subj: System Disk 5.0 Incompatiblitly 89-07-25 20:36:01 EST From: HyperRam Msgs: 105 (89-08-20) I have Defender of the Crown game for the Apple IIGS (duh) and when I put it into the drive with the System Disk v5.0 desktop running-it locks up. Once it crashed and said something like Icon errors $1000 whatever. I took out the icon and it works but on the originals-it crashes worst. Why? Also on AWGS if you pick Chose Font then cancel-the menus to the right disapear. Ram Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-25 20:43:09 EST From: A GibberFC Well there are is a mess of stuff that will be incompatible just because of some of the shortcuts that some of us take when we program.... but _I_ will NEVER do that ....;) BTW does anyone know if Activision is recompiling Paintworks Gold to run under 5.0???? That thing wont even get off the ground... Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-25 21:24:28 EST From: Jeffs50 I'm having a problem with 5.0 loading up. Everything looks good until it reads my hard drive, and then I get an error $0005 Icon File is damaged.? What Gives? Does anyone know what I can Do to get 5.0 Up and running? BTW if the SCSI driver is not on my boot disk, 5.0 will load to the Desktop. Please let me know what I can do. Thanks Jeff Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-25 21:39:35 EST From: HyperRam Plus HyperStudio v1.2 locks up when I load a stack-this is disapointing.... Ram Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-25 21:40:24 EST From: HyperRam What do you mean ShortCuts? Did Apple make software or sh*tware? Is it the System Disk's fault or the programs? BTW the new PaintWorks Gold WILLNOT work with 5.0-and there isn't going to be one for 5.0. Ram Subj: Finder icon complaints 89-07-25 22:18:24 EST From: Dave Lyons The Finder is less tolerant of some things than it used to be--for example, under 4.0 you could have a match-everything icon in one of your icon files (other than Finder.Icons), and it would match everything. Under 5.0 the Finder gets really confused if you do that (so don't). Also, Finder 1.3's philosophy is that you should *not* fiddle with the file "Finder.Icons". You definitely shouldn't add or remove things, but you can get away with editing the existing ones to make them look different. If you're having trouble, try renaming your existing Finder.Icons to something else, removing the match-everything icon from the end, and copying the 5.0 Finder.Icons file onto your disk. Matt Deatherage takes most of the blame for the above information, by the way. (He's sitting right behind me with my box of ding-dongs.) Subj: shortcuts 89-07-25 22:43:07 EST From: Bud Gehr Hyper, In most cases the program that uses the shortcuts is to blame and in a few others it is Apple that is to blame. While I have not had a problem with anything I have written running under 5.0, Apple does have a way with changing the rules in midstream on occasion. Don't blame Apple if a program will not run under 5.0 as it is usually the fault of the program and not the new system disk. Bud Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-25 23:05:13 EST From: HyperRam Well what about this one:When you load a program (like SoundShop on HyperStudio) and take out all the disks (or just the program disk) and try to open a file-LOCK UP! It doesn't do that with 4.0 and it's a severe pain keeping the program disk in... Ram Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-25 23:07:45 EST From: HyperRam Can I just use Finder 1.2 then? I'm not that fond of 1.3 either. Subj: Just say no to 1.2 89-07-26 01:07:47 EST From: A2Pro Tim Hyper - NO, you can't reliably use the version of the Finder that came with System Disk 4.0 (Finder 1.2). Why? That version of the Finder can NOT handle resource forks correctly. The new Finder (v1.3) CAN handle files with resources (remember, CDevs are just one big resource...). Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-26 17:21:09 EST From: HyperRam I was using Sound Shop v1.01 that comes with HyperStudio and today the thing said, Tool Error Number:$0002 Reference Number$0301 Press a key to continue.... and it went back to the finder. Also-I had to install tool 32 to run Music Studio-I saw a Tool 33 and I put that in just for good luck. What is Tool 33? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-26 18:49:38 EST From: A GibberFC Hyperram... For one thing.... if most programmers followed every rule that apple put out then we wouldn't have some of these problems.... But sometimes (in order to do something) we have to bend the rules a little an example of that was Styleware's Multiscribe 3.0 which put the spell checker in Reserved memory.... When system 4.0 came out Apple used that Reserved memory for the system. Hence a conflict. Another Example of this is Paintworks Gold...... the program asks for the FIRST 512k of memory... and refuses to be loaded anywhere else... so if you have Da's and NDA's under 4.0 you would sometimes crash. Under 5.0 I believe the problem is that there is not enough memory for the program so it goes into monitor. The fix for that one would be (help me out guys) would be to recompile it and have it ask memory manager to load it into free memory like a good little application. Also on the finder 1.2 with 5.0..... NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO AFC Gibber Subj: Tools 32 & 33 89-07-26 19:50:43 EST From: GuS Grafix Hyper, You will find tools 32 and 33 in the Tools Folder inside the System Folder on the second of the System 5.0 disks, the disk named System.Tools. I suspect it is a better idea to get these two tools from the 5.0 version of System.Tools, since they may have been modified since they were put on your Music Studio disk. Incidentally, these two tools: 32 and 33 are NOT installed automatically when you use the INSTALLER on the System.Tools disk to INSTALL LATEST SYSTEM FILES (this installs a _minimum_ configuration system onto the target disk); you need to MANUALLY transfer these tools from System.Tools 5.0's "Tools" folder to the "tools" folder on your target disk after you use INSTALL LATEST SYSTEM FILES. BTW, good question: what exactly ARE Tools 32 and 33?... when do we need to have them around? Marian Subj: HyperStudio is OK, DP II isn't 89-07-26 23:32:53 EST From: GuS Grafix I've had no problems thusfar with HyperStudio 1.2 OR Sound Shop running under 5.0 . I do, however, have Tools 32 & 33 in the Tools Folder on my startup disk, so this might account for why I'm not having problems but Ram is. However, I can't get Delxue Paint II to run at all... it gets as far as giving me a white screen with a single horizontal black line where the bottom of the menubar should be. GS Bob has reported the same problem with DP II and 5.0 in the AGR forum. Anybody else having problems with either HS or DP II under 5.0? Incidentally, I've also encountered the strange menu effects following selection of the choose font menu in the AWGS WP... but in my case there are additional black areas in the COLORS menu and a black rectagle that won't go away on the menu bar to the right of the FONTS menu. Marian Subj: Re: Don't believe the hype... 89-07-27 00:44:41 EST From: BCS Al Whoa. First, programs written at the dawn of Apple IIgs computing will have problems. Period. When Deluxe Paint came out, there wasn't even a complete Toolbox. We had ProDOS 16 1.0. Programs like that aren't going to work very well; programmers break rules. We pay for that when there are ROM and system software upgrades. 90% of the time this isn't Apple's fault. HyperStudio has so many problems under 4.0; there's no telling what it'll do under 5.0. Don't be surprised; HyperStudio is still a beta version. This transition will be a little rough but we should all be able to ride it out and really enjoy using 5.0 immensly! Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 01:35:52 EST From: Mark TMM Tool032 is the Midi Toolset Tool033 is the Video Overlay Card Toolset Mark Subj: DP II DOES work with 5.0 89-07-27 05:19:47 EST From: A2Pro Tim Deluxe Paint II works for me under 5.0. I've used it quite extensively under 5.0. Your problem is most likely insufficient memory for it. I've got a 1.5 Meg GS-RAM card, so the extra space that 5.0 eats isn't really noticed (I've also purged all spurious desk accessories - sure helped my boot time!). Tim S. Subj: Who's griping? 89-07-27 19:04:58 EST From: GuS Grafix BCS Al: I had the impression this board was for sharing questions/problems of possible incompatibility. I wasn't aware that anybody was doing any serious b*tching here... just saying... "this is what I've noticed, how about you?" Tim: I definitely have at least 1.75 meg of free RAM, so it must be something else about my system config... Thanks for the info... now I know that I'm not beating my head against the wall trying to find a config that works with DP II and 5.0. :)) Matt (I think it was Matt): Thanks for the details on what tools 32 & 33 do! Marian Subj: oops (minor gaff) 89-07-27 19:12:58 EST From: GuS Grafix Oops make that Mark, not Matt (close but no cigar ;) Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 19:15:16 EST From: AFA Parik how many fonts do you have mMrian? one thing I don't like is when you bootup DPII it takes like 15 seconds to process all your fonts... having 50 fonts made it hang. It should work however, I get it to. Do you have the latest version? EA did have one that was NOT copy protected. [almost two years old still though :)] Subj: DPII and AWGS... 89-07-27 20:08:15 EST From: Airship I've had the same problems with DPII and AWGS getting along with 5.0 as others have reported. I noticed that 5.0 was a lot bigger than 4.0 (so the boot time is deceptively slower than I expected) But I never thought of throwing away anything I didn't need in my application (I've using a pretty conventional 1.25 meg system). I'll give that a try and let you know what happens. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 20:59:17 EST From: HyperRam I still have it crash when I run stacks-the apple turns purple and crashes. I'm kinda disapointed with this Finder-first I don't know which File is an AppleWorks one and which is unknown. Then it's always saying-you can't do this, you can't do that. Gee-I thought Apple software followed the Human Interface Guidelines-user friendliness.... Well, sometimes you have to ditch the friendly guck for speed. :) Ram BTW, What is the Tutorial folder for and what is Aristotal Menu? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 21:02:54 EST From: HyperRam BTW, Can I use the Font's from my AWGS System Disk for 5.0? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 21:21:52 EST From: GPD Well, here are the problems I am having after just a few minutes with 5.0: Going to/from ProDOS 8 almost always causes a visit to the monitor. I have been unable to re-install ProSel-16 are the start program. I can rename Start to Finder, but get MLI $50 when I try to rename ProSel.16 to Start. And when I try to rename Start to Finder from the Finder, I get the "File Open" error. While on ALPE last time, my keyboard went haywire. I could not type anything. I finally managed to log off. Any suggestions for either of the above? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 21:56:53 EST From: A GibberFC Ram... I don't know what you see different in the two finders... I have used both and 1.3 acts just the same as 1.2 for me..... Also... I have found something really weird..... if you have a copy of 4.0 on a diskette and boot 5.0 from a hard drive my machine will crash..... Strange... the two systems hate each other. As for the fonts.... if they are standard gs font files you should have no problem with them in 5.0. There are a mess of NDA and CDA files that will go crazy... As for Psel 16..... Well... Maybe..just maybe... Bredon bent a few rules when programming it and when a new system came along... it didn't like the liberties that Bredon had taken with 4.0. Just a suggestion. AFC Gibber Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 22:05:20 EST From: GuS Grafix Parik, I have only the minimum fonts installed by the 5.0 Installer on my ROM disk when I boot up. The version I'm using of Deluxe Paint II is from about 2 yrs ago and is the unprotected backup I purchased from EA shortly after buying DP II. Gibber, Since you actually have manuals to look at can you tell us what the tutorial folder is for and how to access it. Files are filetype unknown and, if I recall correctly, do not get recognized by AWGS. This is about the only thing I haven't yet been able to figure out either by myself or with a little help from folks over here (Mark on Tools 32 and 33 and Ray Montagne on interleave choices for SCSI drives). Thanks in advance, Gibber. Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 22:19:31 EST From: GPD I have found a clue for the problem of going into ProDOS 8. It only happens when I have booted from my hard disk, a 40M InnerDrive. I used the installer to install the files on my HD. Any suggestions? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-27 22:29:57 EST From: GPD Well, I have solved the P8 crash mystery. The InnerDrive device driver is incompatible with 5.0. :( I guess a call to Applied Ingeniuty is in order... Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-28 00:46:21 EST From: ZEPHRE GPD, I too have a 40meg Innerdrive. Please post what you find out from Applied Ingenuity. I have not been so lucky as to receive System Disk 5.0 yet, but I would like to get the jump on any Innerdrive problems I might encounter. Zephre Subj: stuff... 89-07-28 02:35:22 EST From: A2Pro Tim Marian - try tossing out your desk accessories (all of them) just to see if DP II will work for you. I've got several NDA's and a couple of CDA's, but they're all small. It's possible the DPII is picky about WHERE it gets its memory and you've got justtttt enough to make it mad. Somebody mentioned that they were using the 4.0 SCSI driver with the Glen Bredon memorial patch installed under5.0. That's _NOT_ necessary. As far as I know, the 4.0 SCSI bug that Glen's patching out has been fixed under 5.0. In fact, 5.0 does SCSI in an entirely different way, so having the old SCSI driver in there won't get you the 5.0 speed improvements that you'll get if you use the 5.0 SCSI driver (and SCSI manager). Those of you who are having problems with AWGS files not being recognized, do you have icons installed for them? I believe (could be wrong here) that mine work ok for me. I'll try them next time I'm at work (AWGS is there) and let you know. Tim S. Subj: System Software 5.0 & AI Drives 89-07-28 07:04:22 EST From: AFL Dyfet First, a general warning. For those of you out there who insist on doing manual installation, please remember to clear out the system folder first!!! This is important, since you DO NOT want pieces of 5.0 and pieces of 4.0 in your /system folder!!! When you are done installing 5.0, you SHOULD NOT place any device drivers, desk accessories, or other system software oddities you may have, until you have verify first that your system will boot. I would recommend placing DA's back online in small groups, so that problems, if they exist, can be isolated quickly. So far, I have not found any DA's that will cause a crash, though I have found one NDA that will no longer operate when it's called up. As to device drivers, you SHOULD NOT be using ANY device drivers from the original 4.0 disks. Some manufacturers are now distributing high speed device drivers for their harddisks, and those should be installed only AFTER you are sure the system is working!! It may be possible that some of these device drivers will not perform under 5.0. Now, getting back to GPD's problem: I recall you had mentioned that you used installer to bring 5.0 on to your system. This seems to do a good job of cleaning out 4.0 (as well as your desk accessories and other goodies :). Are you using the SCSI driver supplied with 5.0, no special for the AI harddisk at all, or a driver supplied elsewhere??? Subj: System 5 & SCSI Problems 89-07-28 20:19:53 EST From: JerryF15 Remember - the SCSI drivers are all new for 5.0 - and they are designed to bypass the standard firmware I believe. Soooo... if your SCSI card is not _ultra_ compatible with Apple's card, you may run into problems. Subj: DP II, HyperStudio, etc. 89-07-28 20:47:19 EST From: GuS Grafix Tim, The only DA I have is the control panel, though I will try deleting it to see what happens. I DID get DP II to work about twice today...after I reformatted my AEROM, setting it down to 1024K, leaving 2.25 meg free (I previously had an AEROM of 1600K with 1.75 meg free. The thing is... I couldn't find a pattern to when it would or wouldn't work. One time it would another it wouldn't. Didn't appear to be related to whether I did a cold reboot or a warm one. Odd... but still working on it. Ram, I did extensive work today with HyperStudio (took tools 32 & 33 out to see if HS really needs them). I was able to run everything in the Home.Stack that comes with HS without problem and was able to create a new stack of about 5 cards with about 15 buttons and 4 or 5 sounds attached without any problem. Not sure what's causing your problems with HS. At the time I did the above I had 2.25 meg free RAM, no DA's except control panel, booting into a ROM disk containing system 5.0 without tools 32 and 33 and running HS off 3.5 inch drives (two of them) Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-28 22:18:00 EST From: MarcZ Has anyone ran into problems with the CMS Card? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-28 22:50:43 EST From: HyperRam Run Sight And Sound 640 Mode-When it says loading-the screen is screwed up. HS hasn't crash so far (I only have used it once today:) Ram (More to come...) Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-28 23:39:12 EST From: GPD Well, I have solved the P8 crash mystery. The InnerDrive device driver is incompatible with 5.0. :( I guess a call to Applied Ingeniuty is in order... Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-28 23:39:31 EST From: GPD Unfortunately, it appears that ProSel-16 is not completely compatible with 5.0. Two things I have noticed so far is that utilities cannot deal with resource files, and the Editor comes up with a blank screen when told to show the executable files on a volume. Anybody know when Glen is going to return and put things right? Subj: CMS and 5.0 works for me... 89-07-29 02:22:34 EST From: A2Pro Tim MarcZ - I've been using 5.0 for months now with my CMS 20 Meg drive and it works fine. I've got it hooked up to a CMS SCSI card (haven't bothered to try it on my Apple SCSI card). Which card are you using and what seems to be the problem? Tim S. Subj: Re:CMS's and 5.0 89-07-29 06:21:11 EST From: M Woolf I have found that in order to use my two CMS 20 meg drives, which are chained together, I have to use the SCSI driver from 4.0 or I hang at the thermometer. I am using the Rev c Apple card. Any ideas? Michael Subj: ProSEL 16 89-07-29 09:58:18 EST From: AFA Parik Prosel 16 v2.1 works fine with resources - I can copy them/etc with no problems. In fact I used ProSEL 16 to copy over gs/os v3.0 to my ROM disk since I didn't want any CDEVS. And it copied over the resource file in */SYSTEM/SYSTEM.SETUP w/o problems! Subj: ProSel-16 89-07-29 10:52:09 EST From: GPD Parik, My comments were based on the experience I had trying to rename files. I used Utilities to try to rename Start to Finder and ProSel-16 (which I had renamed prior to installing 5.0) to Start. The Start -> Finder rename worked fine, but the ProSel.16 -> Start produced MLI Error $50. But since I do not have a listing of what each code means, I could only guess that it was having a problem with resource forks. But, based on you comments, I think I can offer a better guess: Is $50 "File Open," or some such error, which was produced by trying to rename an already open file? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-29 13:22:34 EST From: AFA Parik ProSEL 16 nor FINDER contains resources in itself. Whats probably happening is that START got renamed to FINDER but was not closed, and when you tried to rename PROSEL (or whatever) to START the START file was still open. You may want to just rename START to FINDER, then do another (R)ename and rename PROSEL to START. that is, only checkmark one file at a time. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-29 16:35:20 EST From: GPD Parik, I solved the problem by booting off the system disk and renamed the files from the Finder. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-29 18:56:54 EST From: HyperRam Also if you run the Memory Tester that came with AppleWorks GS, and press OA-. to cancel and reboot-the drives won't spin! You have to power down! I got stuck with a file open and had to reformat the disk with Copy II+ 8.4. :( This thing is cheap! Ram Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-29 19:02:18 EST From: HyperRam When ever I run something (JumpStart, Sight and Sound 640 from HyperStudio) it will say (On the black screen with white Shaston 8 letters) 'Loading.... Please wait for blah blah' -I'll see some messed up characters! Agh, 5.0 stinks! Ram Subj: complain....complain...complain 89-07-29 22:20:35 EST From: A GibberFC Ram, Fine... If you think it stinks.... Then YOU DON'T HAVE TO USE IT! it is as simple as that. I have tried Hyperstudio and have had no problems. I have run almost every major application with few exceptions they do fine. It is the programs that bend the rules that have the problems.. For one thing I like the fact that I can launch Appleworks GS and be into the Application within 20 seconds instead of 1 minute. I guess that I am just Not a Power User like you are........ Since I don't have all the problems. Proterm, Appleworks Classic, Appleworks GS, and almost everyone of my 140+ applications work very well. Ram.... You knocked the //gs ever since I can remember you on this service... then you knocked system 5.0 for not being out...Now you are going out of your way to show how much you disapprove of the system because of the problems that it has running certian applications. If you think you can write a better piece of system software then do it.. Nuff said Gibber Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 00:01:42 EST From: JoshThomps Well, it works fine for me too. I've used it with everything I have and no problems yet. I've even been using it with ALPE to avoid waiting 3 years for the program to load! Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 00:26:06 EST From: JSchober Ok... here's what I've found... 1) Icons haven't been working properly for me, but I'll try Dave's suggestion ... thanks, as always, Dave! :) 2) Every application I've tried so far, works. Not necessarily perfectly, but they all work. :) 3) ExpressLoad is WONDERFUL! I've found that Expressing ProSEL/16 causes problems, but most other applications express without problems. And boy, does it HELP!! 4) I =have= been getting crashes every now and then, when leaving ProSEL/16 and entering ProDOS 8 -- GS/OS Error, Error $0002, Address $A2xx , LC Bank $00. I'm assuming that that's something that ProSEL/16 is causing, since I've no problems with Finder... 5) I HAVE had problems with copies. I wanted to get my system HD partition defragmented, so I figured I'd copy the entire volume to an empty partition (of the same size), then file-copy it all back, and I'd be set. First I tried to copy Ctrl-A>ll files with ProSEL, and it stopped in the CDev folder with an MLI error 04 (Parm Count bad)... weird, but I figured it just didn't like resources. Went to Finder, and just dragged the /CP1 disk icon right onto the /CP2 icon. Should be a completely legal operation. Welllll... it seemed like it was working, but 1) every time it switched from Reading to Writing (according to the dialog), it accessed my Apple 3.5" Drive. There was no disk in it; it just turned on the light for about 1 second. 2) The bar went all the way across, TWO (2) pixels from the end of the thermometer... and stopped. I figured that it just calculated the length wrong, so I waited... and waited... and waited. The hard disk was still going. After 20 minutes, I decided SOMETHING had to be wr ong, so I rebooted. Looked at the /CP2 volume (which SHOULD have been /CP1, but never mind that right now)... and it was empty. TOTALLY empty. Not a thing copied. Agggggghhh! ProSEL/16's Volume Copy had the exact same problem. Any ideas, folks? But overall... SYSTEM 5.0 IS GREAT!!! :) Many many thanks and kudos to the development team. :) --Joe Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 08:54:25 EST From: Joe120 HyperStudio bombs on me just as HYPER! describes. ALPE bombs on a download with the 'unclaimed interrupt. A comment: I noticed when I used the Installer to put 5.0 on my hard disk that folders were highlighted that apparently didn't need any upgrading (such as the folder where I keep most of my applications). Hyperstudio might also have been selected. I'm going to try reinstalling the 2 mentioned above. GSOS 5.0 is just Great, thanks. Joe Nemecek Subj: ALPE & 5.0 89-07-30 09:36:59 EST From: Coach101 Joe, There is a folder discussing the difficutly between 5.0 and ALPE. Most people are not experiencing the problem. I have the problem, and you make the third report of the problem. How about adding your report to the ALPE & 5.0 folder along with a description of your hardware & software configuration. Ray Montagne (of Apple) is following the problem. Subj: More on DP II 89-07-30 13:13:42 EST From: GuS Grafix Tim S., Despite your experience and Scott Gentry's [AFL Scott] experience (both of you have had no problem running DP II under 5.0), I'm still encountering DP II hanging at the point where it should be putting the menu bar and the tools on the screen, even on a bare-bones GS with 1.25 meg onboard, one 3.5 Apple drive attached to SmartPort and only other card being Disk ][ controller in slot 6 and external modem in port 2. There are extensive details on what I've tried, without success, in the AGR forum, under General Questions and Answers, but I can move a copy of that thread over here, too, if it would help. Suffice it to say that I've tried just about everything I can think of without luck. GS Bob did come up with a workaround that works (but shouldn't be necessary)--namely temporarily removing ExpressLoad from the System folder [I hide it in a folder named Hidden on the desktop, then move it back when I'm done using DP II] and then running DP II. AFL Scott also came up with an important observation...if you happen to have a SCSI card in your machine, but no drive attached then you'll have problems with running DP II also. So, I used GS Bob's workaround (hiding ExpressLoad), plus disabled the SCSI.Manager and SCSI.Driver in my "Super GS"--the one with RAMkeeper (2.25 meg free RAM, 3.25 meg total RAM) and TWGS, etc, etc.--and was able to get DP II to run. Why should Express.Load apparently be causing some of us problems and not others? Marian (just curio Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 14:29:21 EST From: HyperRam Well if it's soo great-it sure hates me! Now I'm having problems loading it! Ram :( Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 14:30:20 EST From: HyperRam BTW, I'm not a power user... :) Ram Subj: Why? 89-07-30 14:37:51 EST From: HyperRam BTW, Why can't you just drag the folders into the disk instead of the installer? You could do that with 4.0. R A M Subj: Ah, but apparently you CAN 89-07-30 14:40:59 EST From: GuS Grafix Sorry about the confusion, Ram... Apparently you CAN just drag folders/files, so long as you use Finder 1.3 to do it, Ram... see Joey's note in the folder about Resource Forks... According to Joey, who is usually incredibly accurate about these things :-) , Finder 1.3 (which is the finder on the 5.0 System Disk) can, indeed, file copy files with resources. The time you run into problems is when you use an earlier version of the Finder. So, to copy files, even those with resources, from 5.0, simply use the Finder that comes with 5.0. Working without technical dox makes it a bit of a problem to figure out what story you hear is accurate and what isn't. Anybody know if this stuff is covered in the User's dox that one can buy with 5.0...or will we have to wait for technical dox from APDA? Marian Subj: Sorry... 89-07-30 15:03:17 EST From: GuS Grafix Reread that last paragraph of mine and realized it might sound like a gripe...it wasn't intended to be, really! Just a request for info on what dox I need to buy to get the kind of data I'm really interested in... especially stuff about files with resources and how 5.0/ Finder 1.3, etc. handles them, whether the Installer really needs to be used to install the system onto a freshly formatted disk, what files are the minimum files that one needs on a startup disk...etc, etc. Thanks in advance. Marian Subj: Installation Of 5.0 89-07-30 15:22:36 EST From: Coach101 I generally copy things with Finder or whatever to do installations and one can certianly do it with 5.0. The catch is that there is so much new stuff (and new concepts) in 5.0 that without the technical documentation you can easily mess up and not get something that you need copied to where it needs to be. I strongly recommend using the Install program to do the job. Ram, It appears that you are experiencing an inordinate amount of problems (the number of problems you are seeing sounds like it exceeds the total of all other users problems). That large amount of problems is so strange that I would become very suspicious of the configuration. That is, what is different about your configuration and everyone elses. Could you post a complete system configuration in this folder? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0/DP II 89-07-30 15:31:59 EST From: DanB35 Hmmm... that's funny, I have a SCSI card in my GS, with no drive attached, and DP II works fine. --> DanB35 Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 15:54:19 EST From: MarcZ I ahv'nt installed it on my HD yet, I thought I read about people having problems with the CMS driver. Sinse it seems to be working for others I'll give it a try. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 18:47:08 EST From: MRanes I can't get 5.0 on to my InnerDrive 40. After it looks at the first 20 meg partition, it locks. I have to disable my card in slot seven just to boot 5.0 so I can't install it. I have also tried copying the system files directly to the HD with no luck. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 20:24:47 EST From: HyperRam I used the installer this time and made a new copy-it works great!(sort of) Sometimes it doesn't crash on HyperStudio but today-everytime I loaded a stack-crash. :( My (yayful:) system, Slot 6:Stereo Card, 1 Meg of memory Apple Card 2 3.5 drives-1 5.25 That's all. I noticed dragging seperate pieces of the system folder into a disk bomb! You HAVE to drag THE WHOLE shiscobob System folder into the disk. Ram Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-30 20:28:30 EST From: HyperRam BTW, I have the memory tester on the 5.0 disk (AWGS System). I doesn't work right when I run it off that system disk-but if I put in the original, put in the AWGS System Disk into drive 2 and run it-it works fine. :/ Ram Subj: Re:Proterm 89-07-30 21:10:56 EST From: MarcZ Help!!! Proterm does'nt seem to work under 5.0. I can log on and it goes through my macro's fine, but the first command I enter(i.e. Return). Boom it crashes. I get a "*" symbol. Anyone running Proterm off 5.0? It's the newest version (7.1 or what ever). Subj: Express Load & Marian 89-07-30 23:15:34 EST From: A2Pro Tim Marian, Why does DP II suddenly work when you've booted without ExpressLoad installed? Simple, ExpressLoad uses a little bit of memory. Apparently, that's justttt enough memory to make DP II upset and we all know that when DP II gets upset, weird things happen . On 512K systems, ExpressLoad will NOT be installed during the boot (since memory is so tight), apparently, some apps running under 5.0 that expected every nook & cranny of memory for themselves are now running into problems. You might want to use the Finder and get Info on the ExpressLoad file, then see if there's an INACTIVE button on the info window. If so, that's probably easier than dragging it off somewhere else. Tim S. Subj: Memory not the prob...(DP II) 89-07-31 15:20:24 EST From: GuS Grafix Tim, I already thought of that (memory constraints), but I need to hide ExpressLoad even on my system with 2.25 meg of FREE RAM, 3.25 meg total RAM. I'm pretty sure I looked for an Active/Inactive check box on the Info dialog for ExpressLoad and there wasn't one. Thanks for the help, Tim. Guess we'll just have to wait for EA on this one. Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 15:29:19 EST From: AFL Dyfet From what I recall, DP II is NOT just picky about how much TOTAL memory is free, but also WHICH areas are free...certainly, 5.0 does show how well some applications have, and have not, followed Apple standards :). Dyfet Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 17:10:09 EST From: STU8 Marian, Another suggestion that is worth a shot. I have DPII working fine off 5.0 now. At first it asked for my master disk. So I made a new backup with Copy Plus 2 using the hard drive parameter and copied the files over. Voila, it is working. Stu Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 19:10:49 EST From: GuS Grafix Stu, I think that probably only applies if you are working with a copy-protected master disk. At one time, EA offered an unprotected backup for $10 or $20 and that's what I've been using... even tried using the original unprotected master disk, but still to no avail. Thanks for the suggestion, though! Dave, Roger that on 5.0 testing adherence to standards... see Stu's note about King of Chicago not working with 5.0... whereas a later Cinemaware offering (Rocket Ranger) has worked fine for me. Hopefully, that's a sign that some companies are improving there adherence to standards. Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 19:15:00 EST From: GuS Grafix there = their Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 19:18:44 EST From: MarcZ Has anyone had a problem with Ptoterm, v 2.1? Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 20:44:02 EST From: Lexter I agree with Gibber, Ram, I don't know much about you but I do know you are quite critical. Why not try to fix things before you jump off the deep end. So far you have been contradicted by tons of people on this board alone, and I hate to say it, but I don't think their telling a lie. Get with it Ram!!! Sam Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 20:50:31 EST From: Lexter Well, Ram, I am a power user! I always turn on the power when I boot up my GS! Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 20:58:05 EST From: GuS Grafix Marc, I don't use ProTerm, but I think there's a message from Parik under Programs Not Working Under 5.0 (a few folders ABOVE this folder) about Proterm not working... you might want to read it. Marian Subj: Ooops...circular reference 89-07-31 21:00:17 EST From: GuS Grafix Oops. Sorry about that, Marc. I went to get a copy of Parik's message to post here for you--only to find that it was YOU who left the message about Proterm in the Programs Not Working w/5.0 folder. Talk about "circular references!" Sorry about that... Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-07-31 21:53:05 EST From: GuS Grafix Forget that comment about Rocket Ranger working fine under 5.0... I've obviously damaged what little of my brain is still functioning by overdosing on 5.0 lately....I've spent so much time with 5.0 the last few days that I completely forgot that the one break I took was to play RR, which has to booted directly from the Rocket.Ranger1 disk! So...Rocket Ranger worked fine...it just wasn't working under 5.0!!! Sorry about that :((( Marian Subj: ProTERM v2.1 89-07-31 22:13:42 EST From: AFA Parik ProTERM v2.1 works for me just fine. Launch the file PROTERM instead of PROTERM.SYSTEM however (You also avoid that little chess piece graphic). has anyone else noticed the massive amount of messages here on 5.0? like 500 msgs in less than week. wow. lot of typing. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-01 19:18:23 EST From: AFL Marty I've noticed the ProSel-16 Utilities chokes on pathnames supplied by GSOS... the ones with lowercase characters. The new version of ProDOS (8 bit ProDOS) seems to do some strange things to my 8-bit AppleWorks/UltraMacros. The first time I launch Ultra.System (from ProSel 8) everything seems fine. If I launch it a second time, I don't have as big a desktop as I did the first time. Subsequent launchings decrease the desktop size. Launching Ultra.System from ProSel-16 works okay as long as I only do it once. A second launching crashes the system. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-01 23:35:01 EST From: HyperRam I'd be less critical if it worked. I'm sorry but it just doesn't make me happy when 10000 people say 'Oh! It's soo great and it works with everything and etc..' then I boot up a program and it hangs. It seems like they dumped all the warnings and safeguards for speed. Ram :( Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 89-08-03 09:25:26 EST From: Matt DTS RAM: It would be difficult for you to be more incorrect, although I'm sure you'll do your best. Apple spent over nine months testing hundreds if not thousands of IIgs and Apple II programs with System Software 5.0. Many programs had problems. Some of these were problems in the System Software, which were fixed, and some of them were problems in the programs. Now it's pretty obvious that Apple can't rewrite the System Software *and* everyone's programs. For example, we found a program that didn't work because it used an illegal menu number for the Apple menu. We found the documentation not to be clear that the number was illegal, so we changed the Menu Manager to allow the number while we have time to discourage developers from using it. We found another application that was returned a four-byte pointer to something in the system, and the application simply ignored the high word of the pointer and assumed it would always be in ROM in a certain bank. (A RAM patch file can change that.) We can't fix that - we can't rewrite his program. We're doing the best we can to show developers how to do things the right way, and to make the System Software as bullet-proof as possible. Little problems will always get through, but no one else finds them on the magnitude that you do. Perhaps you have a bad desk accessory or setup file that's causing problems for all your programs. And you always have the option of going back to 4.0 if you really dislike 5.0 so much. --Matt Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-03 18:04:06 EST From: HyperRam Well-how come it (the program) works under 4.0 and under 5.0 is crashes weirdly? Aren't they (4.0 and 5.0) based on the same thing!? Ram 9 months-long time. :) Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-03 18:07:56 EST From: HyperRam BTW, I don't try to find bugs-they find me somehow. Maybe it's bad luck... Ram Subj: Possible Points of Problems 89-08-03 20:07:41 EST From: AFL Dyfet There are two possible places I can see problems occuring, and they are both with 512K machines. First, even without expressload being installed, the new GS/OS will still use more memory than it did under 4.0. Also, at least some disk loaded tools are probably now larger, and more patch is probably loaded for the roms. On a 512K system, it's quite possible that memory is just too tight for many older applications. It would probably help to unload all the DA's, including the control panel NDA/Cdev stuff. Out of curiosity, HyperRam, do you have a 512K system? Another area of possible problems with 512K is ProDOS 8 applications that are GS aware. GS/OS now hides in memory during the switch to ProDOS 8 so that you no longer have to go through a long switching processes. Some ProDOS 8 applications that are GS aware may have presumed that most of the memory would be available when in fact it now is not. The problems with ProTERM, if verified, may be caused by this, since I believe ProTERM allocated large chunks of GS memory for it's buffer, and may not be able to deal with the fact that less memory is out there than it's used to in 512K system. These are just some thoughts. I have, to date, had no problems whatsoever with System Software 5.0, but then, I have a lot of memory, and have not systematically tried every application I own. However, everything I use on a daily bases works fine for me, so I am happy :). Dave Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-03 21:46:00 EST From: GSJohn Ram, 9 months is a very short time for such a major revision to system software. Please try not to blame Apple for other peoples mistakes. 5.0 is a major improvement and will become even better when programs are written to take advantage of it's new features. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-04 08:09:12 EST From: HyperRam OK! OK! OK! I take the suttle hint! I'll shutup! :) No I have a 1.25 MB machine. Ram :) Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-04 12:27:31 EST From: JSchober ProTERM Problems: Well, one thing to look into, that I had problems with under System 4.0. Seems that something I had in my system gobbled interrupts, and when I started communicating with ProTERM (if I stayed offline, no problems), the thing would quickly crash, presumably with a stack or interrupt problem. Solution: Press Ctrl/RESET before doing anything (but AFTER ProTERM inits the modem and you're at the main menu). Might not solve YOUR problem, but it sure works for me! I have no problems at all with 2.1 under 4.0 OR 5.0, anymore. Ram: Just FYI, while System 4.0 and 5.0 are based on the same thing (the GS), they're about as different as you can get. Heck, the development team even took the CLASSIC DESK ACCESSORIES menu out of ROM, and rewrote it (added the ability to scroll, and made it tons faster, too...). The tools are changed, the drivers are changed, everything's changed. Programs that assumed stuff for 4.0 or 3.1 might work under 5.0, if they're lucky, or they might crash and act strangely. You should really make absolutely sure it IS the operating system that's causing problems, before you cry wolf. Subj: Proterm 89-08-04 22:46:37 EST From: MarcZ Grafix, Thanks anyways for trying.. Parik, For some reason I cannot get Proterm to work with 5.0, so now I use Sys. Switch and run it under 4.0 and it works fine. I have no idea what the problem is. It works for a minute and then I get a "*". ????????????????????????? JShober, I'll give the Control-reset a try at the main menu. I can do it when I get the "*" sysmbol, but than only the menu bar at the top appears and I can't seem to do anything else.... Subj: ProTERM 89-08-05 00:51:03 EST From: AFA Parik you are using v2.1 of ProTERM, right? How much RAM do you have? Subj: Thoughts On Ram's Difficulties 89-08-05 11:51:47 EST From: Coach101 It sure seems that problems are attracted to you Ram :). Since you see more problems than the rest of us (I have one or two but nothing as perverse as you) there must be something different in your system or methods of operation. After reading your problems and comments here and in some other folders the following thoughts came to mind. 1) If you are having problems with a "memory diagnostic" crashing, I would take a long look at memory. You may have a chip(s) that have gone bad on you. The memory diagnostic that I use does not crash but it generally leaves the system in a state such that a reboot is required (since the diagnostic is testing all expansion memory it destroyed all memory and so a rebott seems reasonable to me). 2) In one or two postings you mentioned "taking out the system disk". I run on a hard disk, and I suspect most of the other people around here do also, so maybe some of your problems are coming from not being able to find the "system disk" at the proper time. Try *never* (if possible) removing the system disk and see if that helps. 3) With 1.25 meg of memory you could still run into problems (especially with programs that *needed* 1.25 meg of memory under 4.0) since 5.0 is bigger than 4.0! Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-05 13:39:45 EST From: HyperRam I just got my chips checked-nothing. Oh well. Hey, why can't you use the control panel NDA on Art and Film Director? Ram Subj: Art & Film Director 89-08-05 15:48:58 EST From: GuS Grafix Ram, I have encountered the same phenomenon with Art & Film Director, namely that when you try to access the control panel, all you get is an empty window. I can only presume that it is something non-standard in A & F D. In any event, it's really no big deal, since it doesn't appear to crash the program--you can just close the empty window and go on with A & F D. (I've only checked Film.Director for this, however). Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-05 20:01:49 EST From: JoshThomps I get that empty window in several other programs, and I believe that they were ALL 320-mode programs. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-06 09:03:57 EST From: HyperRam It doesn't work for ALL the 3 things. Oh oh, how come the plane doesn't come out in the 320 mode? :) Sometimes when I open the Control Panel-all the icons are messed up. Ram Subj: De-Plane In 320 Mode 89-08-06 09:41:18 EST From: Coach101 The plane does not work in 320 mode because the author ran out of time to place that feature in the code. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-06 13:27:20 EST From: MarcZ Parik, I have 1.25 megs of RAM. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-07 16:22:22 EST From: BruceK11 Users of Roger Wagner's Softswitch who boot GS/OS version 5.0 to run their ProDOS 8 programs will be sad to discover that Softswitch does not function. It apparently senses the GS/OS stored in memory while ProDOS 8 is active and believes that it is GS/OS which is active, therefore refusing to save a window. So much for my ideas of productivity, switching between Appleworks 2.1 and AppleWorks GS and saving several other P8 programs under Softswitch... RWP promises they are working on a fix. Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-07 23:53:48 EST From: Gary51 I Have a problem when I select SHUTOFF from the finder after I have used a P8 Program like (Quicken). I get (GS/OS System Error Adress=$030648 Error Code=$0002 lc Bank $0. return to reboot. Has anyone had this problem. Gary 51 Gary Antoine Subj: Re: Error $0002 at 030658 89-08-09 00:35:20 EST From: Montagne Can you tell me which GS/OS device driver's and FST's you have installed? Also, how much memory do you have? The error is a fatal GS/OS error. The OS detected a condition where it could no longer run without the possiblity of media corruption. After you let me know more about your system configuration I should be able to tell you what may have happend. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: Universal Disk Controller 89-08-09 23:43:49 EST From: LDavison My 3.5 drives are attached to a Universal Disk Controller card in slot 6. When GS/OS boots it displays the "UniDisk3.5 requires a driver..." message even though the driver is installed. After the boot completes the Finder doesn't recognize the second drive. I have the Smart Port enabled in slot 5 (so I can use a RAM disk). I've tried disableing the Smart Port and changing the system speed, next is moving the UDC to slot 5. thanks, Larry Davison Subj: System Disk 5.0 and UDC 89-08-10 05:33:46 EST From: AFL Dyfet When you refer to UDC, do you mean the Central Point 'Universal Disk Controller'? That is probably the cause of your problem. The UDC does not support all the frills and functions needed from the firmware to properly handle 3.5 drives. I would hightly recommend moving your 3.5's back to the IIgs drive port, if this is the case. Dyfet Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 & UDC 89-08-10 21:50:24 EST From: LDavison Yes, I do mean Central Point's card. Moving the drive to the disk port on the IIGS is not an option, unfortunately. The drives are _Macintosh_ compatible 3.5 drives (I put this set up together back before the IIGS, when I had a ][+). Looks like I'm going to have to call Central Point. thanks, Larry Daviso Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-13 08:50:03 EST From: A GibberFC Well.... Proterm 2.1 works great for me.... As for all the problems that I have discovered... They aren't as big as other's.... Also....here is a goodone for you.... Activision has just updated Paintworks Gold to work under system 5.0...hehhehehehehehehe Has anyone told them that 5.0 is out yet???? Gibber Subj: you mean 89-08-13 12:17:33 EST From: AFA Parik typo John! You mean Activision has upgraded PWG to 4.0 :) Subj: Typical Activision... 89-08-13 20:06:18 EST From: GuS Grafix Yeah, Parik and Gibber... Typical Activision move, just prize winning! I wonder if the "new" version that works under 4.0 also works under 5.0? Nah... that would be expecting too much from Acitivision, oops I mean, Mediagenic. Marian Subj: Re: System Disk 5.0 Incompatibli 89-08-19 07:55:30 EST From: HyperRam It doesn't-you need to run POM to run it. Ram Subj: PWG patch in AGR 89-08-20 12:49:45 EST From: GuS Grafix There is a patch to allow PW.Gold to work with 5.0 in the AGR message board. The good news is it works :))) The bad news is it requires 1.5 meg of RAM. Marian Subj: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-07-30 16:45:44 EST From: AFA Parik Msgs: 87 (89-09-13) Post here any programs you think do not work with System Disk v5.0. Subj: DeluxePaint II 89-07-30 16:46:03 EST From: AFA Parik some people can get this to work, I can get it to work 90% but some functions cause it to crash [esp the INFO BAR]. It'll work fine for me in its raw state as long as I have few fonts and few DAs. However, If I EXPRESS the program [i supposedly have a older version of express, its 1.1 though and works fine for most other programs? AWGS included] it crashes big time. I know Marian :) has the same problem, anyone played with this program in its expressed form and tried all commands? Subj: PaintWorks Gold 89-07-30 16:47:40 EST From: AFA Parik this barely worked under 4.0, it definitely crashes under 5.0. Subj: ProSEL 16 89-07-30 16:48:06 EST From: AFA Parik this program works terrificly if I leave it in its original form, however, if I express it it crashes. not a obvious crash, it seems to work but if I go to the "B"ackup Utilities area, hit ESC, then select B again it'll crash. Or if I do the same in the Utilities area. Its not the express utility I'm pretty sure - AWGS seems to work after being expressed. Oh well - I can live with the extra load time. Subj: Proterm 89-07-30 21:14:56 EST From: MarcZ Proterm does'nt seem to work. Anyone using it? P.S. I don't have the doc's, how do you express load something? Subj: Docs and Express Load 89-07-30 22:59:05 EST From: A2Pro Tim Mark - are you sure you're talking about the same thing the others are? To "express" something, you need one of the soon-to-be-released APW tools from APDA. It's NOT part of the System Disk, it's a special tool... Can you please verify for me that you're referring to the EXPRESS tool or that you're not sure what the others are talking about? Thanks. Tim S. Subj: Express Load and apps... 89-07-30 23:01:12 EST From: A2Pro Tim I've been using DPII expressed for a long time, no problems here, but I haven't tried EVERYTHING yet (no time). As for ProSEL (it's POSSIBLE) that Glen (ProSEL's author) is using a couple of the System Loader calls that aren't guarranteed to work with Expressed files. If so, then that would explain the problem. That's also the reason Express'ing has been left for developers and not end-users. Too many things may have to be changed at the source code level in order to take full advantage of the Express Loader. So, we provide the developers with the tools to do this. End users sort of have to wait until revised versions get released. Those users who also program using APW or ORCA will be able to use the tools (albeit with some potential apps not working right) if they first get the tools from APDA. Tim S. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-07-31 15:13:20 EST From: GuS Grafix Tim, I doubt the version of DP II I'm using has been "Expressed", since I know I didn't "express" it and I have a VERY early version--one dating back to spring or summer of 1987, if my memory serves me correctly. By the same token, the version of DPII that AFL Scott has been using is also not "expressed" and he can get his to work, but several others (myself included) can't get theirs to work. I believe all the reports I've heard have been related to Plain Vanilla versions of DP II, i.e. versions that have not been "expressed" or otherwise modified in any way. Guess we'll just have to see what EA says about DP II. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-07-31 17:02:35 EST From: STU8 Ok, folks here we go. The NDA "Accesssory Chooser" hangs and you need to reboot your system. Too bad that is one handy desk assessory. I've found three games so far that have compatibility problems-for me anyways. King of Chicago boots and plays then hangs shortly after the beginning. Great Western Shootout hangs and I have seen the message Fatal System Error 0681, which needs a cold boot to restart. Gnarly Golf freezes on the first screen. That is it so far. Sounds like the fellows do good work. I'm appreciative. Stu Subj: Rocket Ranger works fine.... 89-07-31 19:02:49 EST From: GuS Grafix That observation about King of Chicago is interesting, Stu. I've had no problems with Rocket Ranger GS, which is also from Cinemaware... maybe they improved their adherence to Apple standards in their later games. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-07-31 19:15:15 EST From: MarcZ Tim S., I have no idea what Express-- is. I thought someone said they had expressed loaded a program, and I just wanted to know what it meant. Sorry for any confusion. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-07-31 19:21:52 EST From: STU8 Also add Bards Tale and Destiny Knight to the list of unbootable programs. Stu Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-07-31 21:38:27 EST From: JSchober As long as we're in the Development forum ;), I've found that DLU (Dialog Layout Utility) v3.0 doesn't work under System 5.0. I've left my bug observations with Scott Aitken, the author... --Joe Subj: Rocket Ranger does NOT work... 89-07-31 21:46:10 EST From: GuS Grafix Oh, Gawd. I can't believe I posted such a dumb mistake! I've spent so much time with 5.0 lately (O.D.ing on 5.0, actually), I completely forgot that the one break I took was to play RR, which has to booted directly from the Rocket.Ranger1 disk! So...Rocket Ranger worked fine...it just wasn't working under 5.0!!! Sorry about that :((( Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-01 19:00:55 EST From: AFL Marty AppleWorks GS has some problems with 5.0. Specifically, page layouts created under 4.0 are completely out of whack, with text areas that go completely off the page (and screen). Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-01 23:24:55 EST From: HyperRam The AWGS Memory Tester doesn't reboot when under 5.0. HyperStudio crashes more then AWGS v1.0! (world record) I hate 5.0's new philosiphy, if you don't have the right disks in at the right time-I'm gonna nuke the hell out of your system. EXAMPLE: TextDisplay v1.3: You HAVE to keep the disk in when you first open a file or it hangs at the open dialog. Sound Shop v1.01 from HyperStudio does the same thing. And YES, EVEN 5.0 hangs like this:take out all disks and press OA-Shift for about the System..., It will ask you to insert the System Disk three times and if you say cancel all those times-CRASH. It says: Could Not Load/Unload Resource Type = 800C. ID=07FF0001 Error*0045 The * substitutes for that weird charater that you can't get on the GS-on IIe's and IIc's. Gee-4.0 was much better, this one they dropped all the quality for speed. (Just think, software to make up for the sad hardware) Ram Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 17:31:41 EST From: AFL Marty Ram - You could go back to 4.0. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 18:00:45 EST From: HyperRam I did. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 19:02:21 EST From: GlynneT I'm having absolutly no problems with ProTERM. Which version are you using? I'm using 2.1. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 21:09:49 EST From: JoshThomps As for other games: Neuromancer GS works fine, and Silpheed runs most of the time, but it's very tight on memory and since I keep adding and removing DAs to try them out, it doesn't always run. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 21:11:13 EST From: JoshThomps Really? I seem to remember using DLU v3.0 recently with System 5.0? I know it didn't work with a beta version I had (because it had a beta version # of GS/OS), but I remember using it very recently. I'll have to try when I log off. What does it do? Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 21:12:41 EST From: JoshThomps Probably font problems or something...I copied the correct fonts to my harddrive with System 5.0 and it seems to work OK, although I haven't used the layout stuff yet with Sys5.0. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-02 22:33:26 EST From: HyperRam I've noticed sometimes if you get a 'bad' copy it does weird stuff (Like the curser disapearing in AppleWorks GS) you have to make a new copy. I've also noticed that HyperStudio works GREAT at one time then all the other times-crash when I load a stack. What gives? Ram Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-03 00:13:21 EST From: HyperRam BTW, Who's fault is it? The new fangled System Disk v5.0 or the program? I tend to lean toward the program because if you take out all the disks on AWGS of Music Studio-they don't crash. Ram Subj: More Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-03 12:40:01 EST From: MrJayDee I saw that someone previous to me listed Neuromancer as working... I can't seem to get it to work under 5.0... Other titles that I've tried and failed with: CHESSMASTER 2100 ZANY GOLF MEAN 18 ARKANOID CHEAT.CDA WRITER'S CHOICE ELITE If anyone knows of some fixes... PLEASE SEND ME E-MAIL... Mr. Jay Dee Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-03 18:06:08 EST From: HyperRam For some omnious reason :) the Control Panel icons (General, Sound etc...) are messed up when I access it. Why?? Ram (I made a new copy and it went away) Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-03 22:34:26 EST From: MarkSmith1 You can add SHOW OFF to the evergrowing list. I did get Music studio to work . There are two tools on the tools disk that need to be copied to the system disk and the Apple.Midi driver file needs to be renamed to APPLEMIDI (no period) Mark Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-03 23:16:00 EST From: Scapino Mean18 works for me under 5.0(Running from hard disk and the finder..), and the page layout problem in AWGS under 5.0 is the new laserwriter driver that comes with 5.0, I just removed them and substituted the ones from 4.0, and the pages are back to normal,under 5.0. Kurt Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-03 23:24:14 EST From: GuS Grafix Jay Dee, I could swear I had Neuromancer GS running just fine under 5.0, without any special manipulation required, but I'll double-check on it. As for Writer's Choice Elite you might try using Purge-o-matic on it... details in AGR under General Q & A/System 5.0 compatibility Marian Subj: Neuromancer? 89-08-04 00:29:24 EST From: AFA Parik umm... These games are written to work under ProDOS 8... You're not gonna see any difference in them... Nor should they crash for any reason. That is, Neuromancer, Zany Golf, Diversi Tune, etc, etc all run under ProDOS 8, don't even know GS/OS exists, and so it doesn't matter if you run it under 4.0 or 5.0 or whatever. It could be the new P8 file, but looking at the changes made in the docs it really doesn't affect anything major. Subj: Changes in the ProDOS 8 env. 89-08-04 07:16:45 EST From: AFL Dyfet I already pointed this out in another folder: To perform faster switching, major parts of GS/OS are now kept in memory when ProDOS 8 is launched. This would mean, especially on a 512K machine, that ProDOS 8 applications which are GS aware, and have assumed that there would be a lot of free memory past the 128K area available in the ProDOS 8 environment, may suddenly find a lot less memory out there, and may not be able to deal with this properly. Just something to consider, AFL Dyfet Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-04 08:04:16 EST From: HyperRam I noticed a strange thing with the memory tester on the AppleWorks GS System Disk. When you launch it and press 'cancel' (OA-.) after press yes-it reboots fine, but when you press it on the green-you can't reboot. Oh! Here's a weird one. When you launch AppleLink off the finder, take out the system disk-on the black screen it will look for the system disk but it won't find it. It WILL still load AppleLink but when you go back to the Finder-the menu bar turns into a rainbow and it crashes. Ram Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-04 12:06:47 EST From: JSchober Josh, DLU was going completely flippo, to use a technical term. :-) Created items (of various types) were either not appearing at all, or "appearing invisibly" -- in this latter case, clicking where the item SHOULD be, made it appear. %) Also, seems that the Save As... function has bugs. Usually (under 4.0) it just hangs; under 5.0 it hung, and killed my entire development directory in doing so. Sigh. Ram, Although I can't eject my System Disk at strange times to try to crash the system (my system disk is a hard drive), stop COMPLAINING about System 5.0, for goodness sakes! Yes, there are going to be problems for awhile. No, the development team didn't sacrifice quality for speed -- they just changed some things that programs were relying on, though they weren't supposed to -- every development book you see warns against using undocumented entry points and locations. If you want to go back to 4.0, be my guest, but I can't imagine going back to that stone-age thing anymore, after using System 5.0. :)) --Joe Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-04 14:44:13 EST From: GuS Grafix I'll second Joey's comments--all of them :) It gets to be a real drag to see the same complaint appear day after day, from the same person, with no _ew_ or _constructive_ information associated with it. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Working/Not Working 89-08-04 18:37:35 EST From: Ralfy Everything I've tried works - except SHRconvert. It shouldn't be a memory problem as a friend has 3 meg and can't get it to work. Someone on a BBS said it worked if it was the second program run after booting. That didn't work either. Reach For The Stars would not run under 4.0 but does on 5.0. Subj: hehehe 89-08-04 19:34:39 EST From: AFA Parik That must be a first, a program that won't run under 4.0 but will under 5.0? LOL make sure you run Harpers purge-o-matic before launching SHRconvert. Subj: Re: SHRconvert oops 89-08-04 19:37:35 EST From: Ralfy I just found out that SHRconvert does work - but you can't use the SHRconvert.Finder. I.e. - boot SHRconvert straight from the finder. Subj: Clarification on SHRConvert 89-08-04 20:19:41 EST From: GuS Grafix Parik, Ralfy's right... SHRConvert works fine on it's own under 5.0, i.e. you don't need to run SHRConv.Finder first anymore. That makes _two_ programs that run ok under 5.0 but not under 4.0, I guess :)) Ralfy, For what it's worth, I've been able to get SHRConvert 2.1 to work properly under 5.0 both by double-clicking on the program icon itself and by running SHRConv.Finder first...and letting SHRConv.Finder run SHRConvert. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-04 22:58:01 EST From: SkipS I've ran Reach for the Stars (on a hardisk) under 4.0 and 5.0 without any problems at all. It's, of course, faster with 5.0. I'm also running Jack Nicklaus golf under 5.0. I'm confused as to why it doesn't seem to run faster at all than it did with 4.0. I guess they didn't use any toolbox routines on that one. I am having some trouble with Revolution '76 under 5.0, but I haven't tried it under 4.0 yet. 5.0 is great!!!! (are you listening RAM???) -Skip Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 01:21:44 EST From: JoshThomps Also, to all you complainers out there: if developers would stop being lazy and taking shortcuts, the programs should work FINE under System 5.0! A program that runs out of memory should not crash, it should exit nicely. Not to mention that many of those crashing programs probably have had internal GS/OS or ProDOS locatios move out from under them... Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 01:23:07 EST From: JoshThomps Well, I just ran SHRConvert a few hours ago under 5.0!!!! I loaded a few $C1 pics and saved them back as $C0/$0002 with no problems. And I only have 1.25 Mb of RAM. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 01:24:10 EST From: JoshThomps The reason is that SHRConv.Finder was to avoid a bug in the Finder...which has obviously been fixed. I myself figured this out a while back and I've been running SHRConvert without Purge-O-Matic, so that's why I haven't had problems. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 01:51:05 EST From: Montagne Ram, I've been launching AppleLink from the finder with 5.0 for months without a problem. I guess it's another one of them there bugs that search you alone out. By the way, when a memory diagnostic crashes on my system, I tend to take it as a strong hint -- whadayathinkhuh? Subj: Re: Using ProDOS entry points... 89-08-05 01:56:51 EST From: Montagne Since prior to the system 4.0 release, GS/OS has always cleared the ProDOS global pages during startup. We simply did not want applications to run by accident had valid data been present in the global page. There are not to many other locations externally accessed in the ProDOS environment that are actually usefull. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 08:55:03 EST From: WRCalhoun I now get intermittent crashes from AW 2.1. I use TimeOut and UltraMacros. The crash occurs when the macros take over at the opening menu. Bill Calhoun Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 13:49:33 EST From: MrJayDee Here's another cluge... In AWGS (1.0v2), When printing a database, if you interrupt it with OA-. it quits, but hangs without returning you to the program... Any explanations???? Send E-Mail.... Mr. Jay Dee Subj: NOT complaining... 89-08-05 15:36:58 EST From: GuS Grafix Josh, I'm not sure to whom you are referring when you say "all you complainers" (though I certainly _can_ think of one or two people who seem to just be complaining, not being constructive), but most of us posting in this folder are posting to share information, give and get feedback on programs we're having problems with/others are having problems with. It isn't a matter of COMPLAINING its a matter of figuring out work-arounds, causes for problems, etc. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-05 19:57:11 EST From: JoshThomps I was only referring to the one or two people who kept saying stuff like "I don't like System 5.0" or something. For all I care they can just stick with System 4.0. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-06 07:56:56 EST From: M Woolf I began having a problem with Proterm after installing th SCSI Drivers from 5.0. With two CMS 20 meg drives, I was using the drivers from both 4.0 and 5.0. The boot drive (I assume) was running off the 5.0 driver, but the second drive (per order of 5.0) needed the SCSI Driver installed. From 4.0? I guess so! Anyway, After I got that odd configuration working, Proterm stopped. I removed the 5.0 drivers (yes both of them) and everything is back to normal again. I hope! Will there be drivers from CMS to enable us users to take advantage of the faster speed of 5.0 on CMS drives? Michael Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-06 09:01:40 EST From: HyperRam How come everytime I now run the Word Proccesor on AWGS is crashes weirdly and takes me back to the finder? BTW, the finder is messed up too. Ram (Who's complaining? *GRIN* :) Subj: Ram, 89-08-06 09:31:49 EST From: Coach101 I may be reading too much between the lines, but I get the impression that your problems are somewhat intermittent. Or at least that new ones (for example, the AWGS word processor problem you just started experiencing). If the problems do seem to come and go, then it could be that you are running a program that is inadvertently changing some memory that it does not officially own. The offending program may never show a problem but it can mess up the world for the rest of your software. One way to check this out with your current AWGS problem would be to power your machine off for 60 seconds and bring it up from scratch. If the AWGS problem goes away then the problem would probably be that some memory is being changed. If that is the case then you need to keep a log (paper type) of everything that you run (programs, cdas, ndas) and when you have the strange failure mark it down. After a while you may find a pattern (for example, everytime I run this program/cda/nda and do this type of operation, following executions of AWGS dont work). On your AWGS word processor problem, when you end up back in Finder, do you go straight back to finder, or does the machine boot in the middle; do you see the thermometer screen before ending up back in Finder? Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-06 13:39:25 EST From: MarcZ Gylnne, I'm using v.\2.1 of ProTerm. Has anyone been able to run Neuromancer from their hard drive, 4.0 or 5.0? It defintely crashes with 5.0. Rev. 76 acts up sometimes, but I've been able to get it to run... Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-06 14:58:33 EST From: BurgerBill Bard's Tale and Destiny Knight must be booted off of floppy or you must boot your hard drive into ProDOS 8. GS/OS makes patches into the system ROM and These game aren't too thrilled with these changes. These games run but not if you already booted into GS/OS 5.0. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-06 18:14:07 EST From: HyperRam Oh neat, it worked! I turned off the machine (totally unplugged it.) and it went away! I gotta try that next time... Ram Subj: BTW, 89-08-06 18:16:16 EST From: HyperRam I didn't run anything before this happened-I turned the thing on, booted 5.0 and AWGS and it messed up. It could of just been one of the freak things. Ram Subj: Stuff... 89-08-07 00:16:26 EST From: JSchober Whoever wanted a native-mode CMS driver: yes yes yes yes yes YES! :) I second that request, definitely. I had =heard= CMS was supposed to release such a driver, as well as new ROM's for their card, but I haven't seen either yet. :( I just can't understand some people's problems. (Couple specific ones I'm thinking of, but won't name...) Nearly everything I use, with a couple exceptions that I've mentioned in this folder, has worked. Even my own software works, and I'm infamous for at least bending the rules a little bit. (Those of you who have testing versions of GIFStripper GS know what I mean ... some of those operations can't be done that quickly by following the rules.... :-) I'm, like, super-duper pleased with 5.0, and very much hope that System 6.0 will be as much of a quantum leap as this one was. :)) --Joey [Marian agreed with ALL my complaints?? Not even a little tiny bit of disagreement?? Wow... I'm impressed. :)] Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-07 16:01:36 EST From: BruceK11 Here is a biggie. Roger Wagner's Softswitch will no longer switch between ProDOS 8 programs if the boot disk uses V5.0. It seems that in order to prevent trying to save a GS/OS program, Softwitch looks for GS/OS in memory. Since V5.0 keeps much of GS/OS in memory, Softswitch is fooled and is useless. Roger Wagner's tech support says that they are reprogramming Softswitch, and will notify registered users..... I suggest that if enough registered users notify THEM, then they will be more likely to have the update for registered users a bit sooner. Subj: Neuromancer, P-O-M & PWG 89-08-07 18:05:39 EST From: GuS Grafix Marc, Haven't tried Neuromancer GS from my HD (cuz HD is tied up on MacPlus :((( right now) but I _did_ re-try to run Neuromancer GS from System 5.0 without success. Either I _thought_ I was using 5.0 the last time I tried it but wasn't OR this is another one of those intermittent problems. Since I haven't been keeping a detailed written record of what works and what doesn't, I suspect "user error" is more likely than intermittent incompatibility. BTW, I'm still getting intermittent problems running Purge-o-matic under 5.0 and then running either DP II or PWG, but today I _was_ able to get PWG to run from 5.0 after being launched by purge-o-matic ON A 1.25 meg (total RAM) machine--so it _is_ possible to do. Am still working on why the problem with purge-o-matic occurs only intermittently. More details in AGR Forum/General Q & A folder. Marian Subj: Re: CMS Native Mode Drivers 89-08-07 21:05:41 EST From: MrJayDee To confirm a rumour... I talked with CMS, and there will be BOTH a native mode driver and a new set of ROMs released. When??? I don't know, but I've got them on order... Mr. Jay Dee Subj: CMS native 89-08-07 22:07:56 EST From: AFA Parik cool! PLEAAAAAAAASE post the minute you get them, i always forget to order neat things like this. :) Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-07 22:18:59 EST From: HyperRam Does ANYONE know if the new PaintWorks Gold v1.5 runs off of 5.0 with Purge-O-Matic!? If it doesn't, expect complaints, er I mean 'comments'! :) Ram (Master Critic:) Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0G 89-08-07 22:41:40 EST From: Stingray71 GREAT WESTERN SHOTOUT FROM BRITANNICA SOFTWARE BY FANFARE (ALIEN MIND CREATORS) DOES NOT WORK WITH 5.0 Subj: ProDOS 8 MLI and System 5.0 89-08-07 23:27:16 EST From: Call 151 A friend of mine sent me the following: --------------------------------------------------------------- I've been experiencing a peculiar problem while running ProDOS8 vers 1.8 that is contained with System 5.0. The problem occurs while trying to perform a MLI call during the process of saving a file. I didn't have this problem while under ProDOS version 1.7 or less. Furthermore, the problem only occurs when I launch from the Finder. If I boot directly trough ProDOS8 vers 1.8 through a BASIC based selector program then things work ok. All read operation seem to proceed OK. It's only the write operations that have problems. The process seems to go something like this: 1. MLI ($C4) - Get file info file doesn't exist (error occurs) so file is created 2. MLI ($82) - Get time 3. MLI ($C0) - Create file file is now created with no errors, so save operation proceeds 4. MLI ($C8) - Open file everything is ok so far, parms are loaded to save a file A$6000,l$2050,T$06 the pathname was located at $BD00 and the file BUFFER at $B900 (for OPEN call) 5. MLI ($CB) - Write data **** Crash and burn @ $FD52 (in the language card bank I think) **** normally I'd continue on to close the file and return to the caller. All of the MLI calls that I use check the carry to insure that a bad MLI call is not followed by further calls to the MLI. I've carefully tracked the error to this particular MLI call and all of the data given in the tables is valid, the reference number is valid, and the Buffer address seems ok. In addition, I've zeroed out the 48K system bit map to mark all of the memory as being unused. I've tried to follow the guidelines to the letter. I've reset the stack pointer upon entry to the .SYSTEM file by performing a TXS with X containing an $FF. There is just something different about entering using the finder. Anyone have any ideas on what the problem might be? I've spend two days working on the problem and feel like some additional suggestions might be helpful. ------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone out there have any ideas that might help him solve this problem? Thanks. Call -151 Subj: RE: Ascii Pro and Zlink 89-08-07 23:36:14 EST From: StevenD16 Is it my imagination or do these programs not work under 5.0? AEPro (v4.31) won't run macros and intermittenly (?) won't recognize the modem. Zlink doesn't even run. NOTE: this is not a 5.0 complaint. But a call for help. Did Apple purposely do this to monopolize the telecomunications business?? (haha). Any help is appreciated. Thanks for the info on the CMS products too. StevenD16 Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-08 21:08:55 EST From: MUS1 I have been having problems with Purge-o-matic too.. not all the time, but just some of the time.. any ideas? MUS1 Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-09 21:32:35 EST From: JoshThomps Don't run Purge-O-Matic...because it was to fix a bug in the old Finders, and it's not needed under System 5.0. Subj: SLIGHT BUG!! 89-08-09 22:33:21 EST From: HyperRam I found this out in AW Forum. After running a ProDOS 8 Application-you cannot use Save As... under the same file name. Example-Run AppleWOrks GS and use Save As, it will ask you if you want to replace it, run AppleWorks IIe, then AppleWorks GS-you don't get a dialog-you have to delete the file then save it. That presents a serious problem to HyperStudio users. :( Ram 5.0+TWGS=:)))) Subj: RE: Purge-o-matic 89-08-09 23:13:44 EST From: GuS Grafix Josh, Unfortunately, for some of us, the _only_ way we have ever gotten PW Gold to run on our GS's is to use purge-o-matic first. I agree that p-o-m (a.k.a. SHRConv.Finder) should NOT be used to run SHRConvert itself from 5.0. Under 5.0 one needs only to run SHRConvert directly. Marian Subj: Deluxewrite 89-08-10 20:20:50 EST From: Siepmann Another program for this collection is DeluxeWrite. This one could be coaxed to work (half-***ed) under 4.0, but it operates under 5.0 (even using Purge-O-Matic) only after opening and closing numerous windows, running at least one randomly selected .SYS16 application, and only then running P-O-M. When it *does* run under 5.0, it does so beautifully--I don't have to wait a 1/2 hour for it to print out two pages. Even after using the ritual mentioned above, I still can't be certain it won't crash on opening. Any ideas? Ben Siepmann Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-10 21:35:16 EST From: Matt DTS Ram: I just ran ShrinkIt, quit back to 5.0 and loaded a Medley file, and "Save As"'d it with the same name. Worked just fine. --Matt Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-11 21:04:55 EST From: HyperRam I ran Basic.System 1.3, typed BYE, returned to the Finder, loaded AWGS, loaded a file, Save As...-it didn't work. The Save As.. flashed but it did nothing. You must have a better copy but I bought mine from the store. Gee! And I did all this in less then 4 minutes! :) Ram Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-11 23:21:40 EST From: LeonM4 You can also add TopDraw to the list. It boots up okay and i can use it without any problem, but when i select quit, the program locks the system up and i have to reboot.......???? leon Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-12 15:50:15 EST From: GuS Grafix Thanks for the heads up on TopDraw. That's one I haven't had a chance to test yet. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-12 22:06:07 EST From: AFL Dyfet Subj: Copy][+ and 5.0 trouble... 89-08-12 21:48:23 EDT From: Crzy Dimnd Msgs: 1 (89-08-12) Hello, It seems that there might a problem with Copy ][+ (Version 8.4) and 5.0. Everytime I try to boot the bit copy end of Copy][+ it crashes after grabbing the parameters. It seems that the problem IS with the new system disk because it happens even when I try to use the ORIGINAL COPY ][+ DISK launched off the desktop. It does NOT happen when I boot the disk and go for a bit copy though... I have a friend that is having a similar problem with ProTERM also. It should be noted that I tried to REINSTALL Copy][+ onto the hard drive and the problem persists. Has anybody else had similar problems and if so were you able to find a solution?? <> The Crazy D Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-13 14:37:30 EST From: GSJohn I've used copy][+ with no problems under system 5.0. There is less memory to work with so it takes more swaps, but it works Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-14 17:33:44 EST From: JoshThomps My copy of Copy ][+ v8.4 seems to work just fine. I do own the program and I'm using a copy of the original 3.5" disk. I haven't used it a great deal lately but it hasn't crashed on me. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-15 20:38:57 EST From: Matt DTS At least one version of Copy II Plus we've seen does not deal with extended files very intelligently. It seems to say "It's not a tree file; it's not a sapling file; it must be a seedling file!" and copies a housekeeping block and nothing else from either fork. I don't know if this is true with the current version or not. --Matt Subj: Re: "APPLELINK" not working 5.0 89-08-15 22:53:51 EST From: DBDERRE I've spent several &*^*&^ days hoping that this problem was a hardware problem of some sort but, it is TRUE that I cannot get the ALINK.SYS16 file to perform downloads when operating under 5.0...I get successfull downloads under the Prodos 8 version (ALBOOT.8 I think!!) and it continues to communicate properly within Applelink but, the 16 bit version starts out OK and the the blinking cursor gradually gets slower & slower and finally my system crashes with the message 65536 unclaimed interrupts. NOW,,, I've done my homework thoroughly and booted the same Applelink software with SYSTEM 4.0 and I am in fact using that version at this time or, no talkee to you right! Also, I have removed all of my hardware from the GS except for the 1 meg RAM, the AE DATALINK 2400 (slot 2), and my necessary single 3.5 drive. The same results exactly. I am beginning to feel that what I am seeing is within the 5.0 GS/OS but,,, before I run off at the mouth, I will attempt to isolate this problem to something more definitive. I am going to try to build hybrid disks to attempt to isolate some file within 5.0 that may be the culprit. other problems,,,5.0 does not recognize my AST SPRINT DISK (RAM card) and gives me a message upon bootup that it is an SCSI device and requires an SCSI DRIVER (which is already installed on the booted 5.0 disk). I can only get GS/OS to recognize this card by running BASIC.system followed by BYE. From then on GS/OS sees the card until the machine is turned off again. I hope that this is part of the same problem concerning Applelink but, I won't hold my breath. DEAR APPLE PERSONNEL.....I saw someone's suggestion to back up to 4.0. Perhaps that's a good solution and perhaps some industry out there will take notice of that attitude and create a SYSTEM DISK of their own. DBDERRE Subj: Re: Regarding Ram Disk 89-08-16 19:38:56 EST From: Montagne Re: RAM Disk Problem The firmware on your ram card is probably returning a SmartPort device type and subtype indicating it is a SCSI device or the SmartPort Type ID byte at $CnFB indicates it is a SCSI device. If this is the case, the firmware on the card is at fault. Guidelines for development of SmartPort peripherals has been available for quite some time. SmartPort type and subtype bytes are arbitrated by Apple Developer Technical Services to prevent firmware implementations from indicating they support capabilities that they clearly do not support. Developers needing a new SmartPort type or subtype definition as well as a SmartPort type ID definition need only to contact DTS for an assignment. Dialogs presented by the system software are based on fact. The system interegates the firmware and interprets the result as fact. There is no way to determine when it is not fact. The erroneous dialog presentation you are experiencing is most likely due to firmware returning information which is not factual. Ray (GS/OS Team) Subj: Re: Dear Apple Personnel... 89-08-16 19:46:21 EST From: Montagne So what does that mean? Subj: Re: System Disk Development.. 89-08-16 19:47:13 EST From: Montagne A great deal of the incompatability issues being experienced by users is the result of a violation of programming guidelines by the application developer. Although I am not stating that the system software is never at fault (we all know it is sometimes), the bulk of problems are not due to the system software. Imagine what would happen if their were multiple sources of system software. It's difficult enough maintaining compatability with one source. Subj: AppleLink & 5.0 89-08-16 20:32:14 EST From: Coach101 There is a folder further down (ALPE & 5.0) that covers the 65536 UNCLAIMED INTERRUPTS problem in some detail. You might also drop a note to AppleLink that you have the problem; nothing so far says that the problem is 5.0 and not ALPE being caught doing a no-no by 5.0. Subj: Patch to fix PWGold 89-08-20 12:46:39 EST From: GuS Grafix There is a patch to fix PW Gold in the AGR message board. It works :) but requires a GS with 1.5 meg RAM. Marian Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-27 13:29:16 EST From: Whaler2 Since I've gone to 5.0, I find that Superstar Ice hockey won't run correctly from the hard drive. Have to boot slot 5 instead. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-27 13:42:24 EST From: Whaler2 APPLELINK also works just fine on my system using the finder in 5.0 with my hard drive. Subj: Re: Programs Not Working w/ 5.0 89-08-28 23:15:40 EST From: Scapino Same here, 16 bit Alink works fine under 5.0 Personally, I don't expect any pre 5.0 programs to work with 5.0. But, happilly, most do! Don't go trying to corrupt 5.0 just to make stone age software work with it. Attack the problem from the other end. FIddle with the offending programs,until they get upgraded. Don't mess wit my 5.0!!! I has spoken!!!! Kurt Subj: Re: Deluxepaint ][ & NDA's 89-09-13 23:16:59 EST From: DBDERRE I've been having many of the same problems as some of you on deluxepaint. After reading in the DPAINT book and doing a few hours experiments, MY resolution came out to be that some of the NDA's that I have as DESK.ACCS were stealing memory from DELUXEPAINT. I use utilityworks for lot's of my work so, I just turned them off while I use Deluxepaint & then launch it. The book also said that the program has some functions that are "memory intensive" and may not work if the necessary memory is not available. I only speculate that DPAINT was created with no memory recovery capability but, I am now sure for myself that if 768K of memory is NOT AVAILABLE, Deluxepaint will not work. Unfortunately, the symptoms that I would get wouldn't always be the same and I feel that this may be the result of stolen memory by whatever I was doing just prior to launching deluxepaint.......Hope this can help someone......DB