America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, December 1, 1992 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Sound Programming, PUNS, and General Questions Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ Tonight's topic is Apple II Sound Programming! AFL GaryJ Tonight we'll discuss anything and everything to do with what you hear in an Apple II program. AFL GaryJ (not counting fan noise and monitor buzz, please) AFL GaryJ We can also discuss off topic things, if people here don't have any "sound" questions AFA Jay oh no, puns AFC DYAJim Put me in already for a slew of off topic questions (like ADB, rom 03 related, AFC DYAJim etc.) AFL GaryJ Well Jay, it's either "sound" programming, or GNO deal tonight. AFA Jay GNO! GNOT PUNS! AFL GaryJ Does anyone have an on topic question or comment they'd like to start with this AFL GaryJ evening? Sheppy A pun for the season: "Felices GNOel..." LL AndyW If so, you'd better SOUND off now.. AFL GaryJ (ooohh) AFL GaryJ (Great, Andy :) AFL Marty Dashing through the gno.. in a one horse open sleigh AFL GaryJ You're catching on to the "tone" of this conference :) Matt DTS There is gno chance of _any_ of you getting a life, is there? Sheppy We're not getting off to a very SOUND start, are we? AFL GaryJ Gnot a chance, Matt :) Sheppy gno way, Matt... :) AFL GaryJ :) Matt DTS Gosh, and to think I could be doing laundry or reading 16 mail messages from Dean (who's back from Matt DTS vacation now...) GNO Jawaid I'm glad this is being saved :) This is classic :) Dave Lyons (Yes, we're getting puns at much too high a frequency.) AFL GaryJ Dave :) GNO Jawaid um.. any rumors about the SoundMeister card? AFC DYAJim It's supposed to be out any time now Jawaid. AFC DYAJim AT least that's what I've heard last from Econ GNO Jawaid Groovy... AFL GaryJ That sounds like a rumor to me. AFC DYAJim The "Pro" version will be later tho.. I don't know; I think I'll be keeping AFC DYAJim my futuresound for the time being. AFL GaryJ (Which is what the question was, of course :) GNO Jawaid oops.. that's not sound programming... unless you want to mention the "Pro" GNO Jawaid versions ultrasonic digitizing rate... Sheppy So this would be an "OverGNO error then?" AFL GaryJ If nobody has any on topic question (sound programming) we can move to AFL GaryJ some of the off topic ones. (Who was first?) AFL GaryJ (Have had a few requests) AFA Jay Jim, I believe Developer1 has anybody got ANY news about HardPressed? AFL Marty Guess gnot Matt DTS What kind of news do you seek? The author has been posting regularly on aGnother service about it. AFL GaryJ Not me. Developer1 really Matt? um, well, how long till it's out (aproximately) GNO Jawaid Oh My GNod! What have I done to the Engnolish Langnouage?!?!?! Matt DTS I haven't heard an announced approximate release date. Sheppy I don't gno... I think this pun thing is.... er... gno big deal. Developer1 o. ok. AFL GaryJ Ok, Jim has the next question(s). GA, Jim M Wolfgram Gno Gnews then. AFC DYAJim Alright :) AFL GaryJ (Sounds like it) AFL Marty oof AFC DYAJim First I would like to note page 193 of the firmware ref. This is for ADB; AFC DYAJim the "Send ADB Keycode" command. It says "See the GS Hard Ref for details about AFC DYAJim all the values that correspond to specific key-down, key-up sequences" it also AFC DYAJim says that you can use the command to "detect key up events" Sheppy [Heh. ADB references tend to vanish into the Twilight Zone (pun not intended)] AFC DYAJim Now..... some elaboration. I can't find any table in the hardware ref. AFC DYAJim There is a table on page 3-22 of TBR1 but it makes things more confusing. AFC DYAJim Also nowhere does it say HOW you can use this command to detect key up events AFC DYAJim the table on page 3-22 is weird. like why would you want to send a "reset" AFC DYAJim key when reset does nothing by itself? also what is AFC DYAJim the difference between L and R Control, Option, Apple ? AFC DYAJim Are the keys like key number 71, 104, 18, etc not implemented on the GS kbd? AFC DYAJim that's my first question :) JWankerl L and R are for extended keyboards, I assume. They have 'em on both sides of the keyboard. Sheppy Jim, seriously, you've entered dangerous territory. The ADB documentation is Sheppy sparse. LL AndyW Same codes for r and l.. AFC DYAJim So I've found out. It's so mismatched and misreferenced it's impossible AFC DYAJim to figure anything out AFC DYAJim in fact, adb interests me in the same strange undocumented way the iwm does/did Sheppy Yes. Once Greg and I did a game called ADB Wars in BASIC/assembly that... Sheppy ... required two keyboards. AFL GaryJ (Sounds like fun, Sheppy - no pun intended :) Sheppy Well... it was pretty simplistic. The only reason two keyboards were needed Sheppy was because each player needed arrow keys. :) AFC DYAJim But WHERE in the hardware reference is the firmware reference referring to. AFC DYAJim It doesn't even make sense. I can't find any table in the hard ref. Matt DTS It probably means the table in TBR 1; the Firware Reference was done early and maybe the table moved Matt DTS after it went to press. I don't know too much about this stuff, but I know someone who does and Matt DTS I'll suggest it to you privately. GA. AFC DYAJim okay, then I will suppress the rest of my ADB questions :) Sheppy We decided it was too much trouble to actually use that method. :) AFL GaryJ Sounds like something a tech note should be written for (if it fixes a manual) Sheppy I agree. I have a morbid curiosity about such things. Sheppy (Hint, hint, hint... :) AFC DYAJim anyone else have any questions or should I ask some more? :) AFL GaryJ Yes, anyone else? Sheppy Go for it. I'm just here to make fun of people with dumb questions... just Sheppy kidding. :) AFC DYAJim Okay.. AFC DYAJim my next question(s) revolve around appletalk and the rom03.. AFC DYAJim (even tho these technically might be more hardware, but it's conversation :) AFC DYAJim Okay.. first, I still don't get this "extra slot" the rom03 is supposed to AFC DYAJim give you. On the rom01 turning on appletalk essentially swapped the functions AFC DYAJim of slots 1 and 7; so slot 7 was your print slot and slot 1 was empty (so I AFC DYAJim put my scsi card in slot 1 and was all set.) So I tried to do the same AFC DYAJim thing with the rom03. But putting slot 7 to appletalk on the rom03 gets a AFC DYAJim warning, and the CP CDA won't let you exit until you set either slot 1 or 2 AFL GaryJ If I'm not mistaken, there's an Appletalk setting for slots one and two. AFL GaryJ (on the ROM 3). So, you shouldn't have to move your SCSI card. AFC DYAJim to appletalk. Alright, I appear to be babbling.. let me get to the heart. AFC DYAJim Where is this "extra slot"? On the ROM01 I never lost a slot; just the AFC DYAJim functions of slots 1 and 7 were swapped. So does the ROM03 offer an extra AFC DYAJim slot at all, or does it just allow slot 1 to stay as printing, and slot 7 AFC DYAJim to stay as appletalk? I don't get it. JWankerl You can set slot 1 or 2 to AppleTalk without setting 7 - that's your extra slot. AFC DYAJim Joe; that doesn't make sense to me. Matt DTS First, it's not Apple who claims you get an "extra slot." It's an oversimplification you read... Matt DTS ...somewhere from someone who likes to oversimplify. In ROM 1, you set slot 7 to AppleTalk Matt DTS and have to set slot 1 or slot 2 to "Your Card". In ROM 3, you set either slot 1 or slot 2 to Matt DTS "AppleTalk" and forget about it. You may also set slot 7 to "AppleTalk" if you wish, which helps with Matt DTS some programs written for SSW 3.2 that hard-coded the slot to 7. Normally you don't need to do this Matt DTS (I never do), so you can use slot 7 for your card. Matt DTS AFC DYAJim But once you set slot 1 or 2 to appletalk, that slot is shot, right? JWankerl right, but it's just slot 1 or 2, not 7. :-) Matt DTS Right. A slot has one setting and one setting only. AFC DYAJim I get it now. :) the rom03 allows you not to have to swap the functions of AFC DYAJim slots 1 and 7 to use appletalk. Why couldn't they just say that. Okay.. AFC DYAJim (this actually is a negative thing for me, as my scsi card will fit in slot 1 AFC DYAJim and will NOT fit in slot 7 because it bumps into the memory expansion :-( ) AFC DYAJim I have one other appletalk Q. Simplexity Matt... Does that mean that you can use slots 1 and 2 for DC printer & modem... Simplexity ... and still use Appletalk by setting slot 7 in a Rom 01? Matt DTS No. You have to select either slot 1 or 2 for AppleTalk. You _may_ choose to also use Matt DTS slot 7 for it for compatibility, but that doesn't mean you get out of picking a port to plug the Matt DTS cable into and setting the slot appropriately. GA. AFC DYAJim (if you set slot 7 for compatibility on a rom03, do you shoot the use of slot7) Matt DTS Yes. It's not like ROM 1, where you set slot 1 to "Your card" but still use the port and some of the Matt DTS screen holes. On ROM 3, a slot is absolutely used for what the Control Panel says it's used for. Matt DTS It makes much more sense, except to people used to ROM 1. AFL GaryJ Do you get A2-Central? AFC DYAJim (yes Gary) AFL GaryJ There's a great article on all this kind of stuff in the May 1992 issue. AFC DYAJim Alright, my other question deals with a page in the rom03 firmware update AFC DYAJim Alright.. the page I'm looking at states a handful of AppleTalk protocols AFC DYAJim saying were `only partially supported in the original Apple IIgs ROM` that AFC DYAJim `are now fully supported.` AFC DYAJim anyhow.. what advantage is this? appletalk seemed to work fine on a rom01. AFC DYAJim or does this just mean that the hardware does more of the work by itself AFC DYAJim (making the software's load easier?) Matt DTS A bunch of protocols ran out of RAM on ROM 1. They run out of ROM on ROM 3. In 6.0, more run out of Matt DTS RAM than before so they're all timing-sensitive at 1 MHz, but there's still more in ROM on ROM 3. Matt DTS AFC DYAJim alright.. that's what I thought :) AFC DYAJim I did have another question on ADB in regard to reading 2 keys at once; AFC DYAJim but I guess I'll suppress it :) (is it possible in software tho? sticky AFC DYAJim -oops; make that the kbd mouse handles 2 keys at once- and the hardware AFC DYAJim ref hints that it's possible to read 2 keys at once; but the HW ref is so AFC DYAJim vague) Matt DTS I don't know, sorry. AFC DYAJim I was impressed that kbd mouse handles 2 keys simultaneously. that's a neat AFC DYAJim trick :) AFC DYAJim could always make a cool easter egg. AFC DYAJim one last question.. AFC DYAJim one of my T2 beta testers keeps asking how come the popup fDrawPopDownIcon AFC DYAJim icon only points down. He seems to think that when there are items ABOVE, AFC DYAJim the arrow should point up. What's the deal on this? GNO Jawaid I am devastated! Matt's knowledge is not infinite.. :-) :-) Matt DTS Jim: It's an indicator that an item is a pop-up menu, not directions for operation. :) Dave Lyons Well, I looked in Inside Mac VI and only saw down-pointing pop-down triangles. So I drew it Dave Lyons pointing down. Dave Lyons ga AFC DYAJim That's what I thought, Matt :) AFC DYAJim and it is nicely drawn :) Dave Lyons :-) JWankerl straight from the horse's mouth... :-) AFC SteveB What'd you use to draw it? :) JWankerl DIcEd, of course! Dave Lyons Ummm...the MPW editor? Sheppy Eeewwww, the MPW editor... :) Dave Lyons Nothing fancy...I drew it in Hex in the source code. JWankerl What? Not DIcEd? Awwwww... GNO Jawaid Say, Dave, what _is_ the correct pronunciation of DIcEd? Dave Lyons Jawaid, the correct pronunciation of "DIcEd" is a function of time. Before May 1989 it was Dave Lyons "DICE ed", and after that it was "DICK ed", thanks to Jim Mensch. AFC DYAJim that's mostly it.. just one last thing; I remember hearing of a bug in AFC DYAJim the mouse mode not getting reset properly when you enter and exit the CDA menu AFC DYAJim on a rom03. is this supposed to be fixed in 6.0? 'cuz one time I entered AFC DYAJim the CDA menu and exited from the finder, and the mouse completely froze (tho AFC DYAJim the keyboard worked fine to control the finder) Matt DTS Jim: It's fixed in 6.0.1, or use Jay Krell's init to fix it. Dave Lyons Jim, it was supposed to be fixed in 6.0, but it's supposed to be Really Fixed in 6.0.1. AFC DYAJim alright.. I was wondering :) thanks.