America Online
APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, July 7, 1992  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:  Stump "Da Experts" Night
Forum Leader:  Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ)

AFL GaryJ  Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum!
AFL GaryJ  Tonight we have a special event, "Stump the Experts Night"
AFL GaryJ  Tonight we'll give people the opportunity to win free online time
           by
AFL GaryJ  attempting to stump "Da Experts"
AFL GaryJ  The experts consist of:  Matt Deatherage, Dave Lyons, and Andy
           Nicholas.
AFL GaryJ  (If I'm not mistaken)
Da Experts (yup)
AFL GaryJ  They've probably got a 500 meg hard drive with speedy data
           retrieval
AFL GaryJ  software there too, so they can look things up fast  :)
AFL GaryJ  Here's how the game will work:   We will use Forum PROTOCOL, just
           like a regular
AFL GaryJ  conference, which means you need to type a "?" to get your name
           into the question
AFL GaryJ  queue.  AFA Jay will keep track of who's turn is next, and I'll
           call on you in turn.
AFL GaryJ  When it's your turn, you ask the "experts" here any Apple II
           technical or development
AFL GaryJ  question.  No other questions are allowed.  (For example,
           questions like "Who was
AFL GaryJ   the fourth person in the 1984 Apple IIc commercial with the
           briefcase" are NOT
AFL GaryJ  acceptable).  I will be the judge of the questions, and will jump
           in when I feel the
AFL GaryJ  question is not a valid one.
AFL GaryJ  The "experts" will have one minute to answer your question.  (AFA
           Jay will be the
AFL GaryJ  time keeper.)
Da Experts (Jay will say something like "GO!" and the time starts from when
           he sees his words on his screen.)
AFL GaryJ  If the question is valid, the "experts" will have one minute to
           start
AFL GaryJ  sending their answer to the question.  If the answer is wrong, or
           if the "experts"
AFL GaryJ  take to long in producing their answer, then the elligible
           questioner will
AFL GaryJ  be awarded one free hour of online time.
AFL GaryJ  We will give priority to people in the queue who are determined to
           be
AFL GaryJ  elligible for free time (i.e. people who work in the capacity of a
           forum online here
AFL GaryJ  may play, but they are not elligible for online free time)
Da Experts ! One comment
Da Experts _No help from the peanut gallery._  If you comment on someone
           else's question, you could ruin their...
Da Experts ...chances to win.  So if you think you know something, use IMs or
           keep it to yourself.  :)
AFL GaryJ  Yes, thank you for pointing that out.
AFL GaryJ  We need to hold to PROTOCOL very strictly tonight, so please no
           out of turn
AFL GaryJ  comments or questions.
AFL GaryJ  Allright, do we have a question to start out with?
FredW GS   ?
WinkieJim  ?
Sheppy     ?
AFL SandyB If a staff person wins, can they donate the winning time to some
           non-staff person?
AFL GaryJ  (I want to get all the questions about how the game is played in
           first)
AFL GaryJ  That would be good, yes.  
AFL SandyB OK
AFA Jay    Q = FredW GS, WinkieJim, Sheppy
AFL GaryJ  We'll accept that.  If you are one who falls into that category,
           please let us
AFL GaryJ  know (and give us the screen name of the person you'd like to have
           the
AFL GaryJ  free-hour donated to).
AFL GaryJ  Ok.... First OFFICIAL question tonight is from FredW GS:  GA,
           Fred
FredW GS   I have a digitized sound sample in memory, it was sampled at say
           11025Hz...
FredW GS   it is 220K samples long...what toolbox calls doI have to make to
           get it to play
FredW GS   include parameters. ga.
AFL GaryJ  (Oooh.  Sound questions.  :)
Da Experts (We can't write a program for him in one minute, Gary.  <Grin>)
AFL GaryJ  Fred, can you re-formulate your question into something that can
AFL GaryJ  be answered in a simple statement of some sort?
FredW GS   OK, I withdraw...I was led to believe this could be done simply in
           background.
FredW GS   I'll defer to the next question.
AFA Jay    Q = WinkieJim, Sheppy
AFL GaryJ  Ok Fred, thanks.
AFL GaryJ  GA, Winkie
WinkieJim  How would a NDA go about turning off key translation so that it
           can use the 
WinkieJim  option key as a modifier to a menukey selection and not affect the
           app its
WinkieJim  running in?
AFA Jay    Go for it, Experts :)
AFL GaryJ  Yep :)
Da Experts You can't do that.  You can turn it off with SetKeyTranslation,
           but there's only one global...
Da Experts ...key translation and it affects everyone -- DAs and
           applications.  GA.
AFL GaryJ  Do you accept that answer, Winkie?
WinkieJim  yes, I pretty much came to same conclusion :)
AFL GaryJ  :)
FredW GS   ?
AFA Jay    Q = Sheppy, FredW GS
AFL GaryJ  Ok, thanks.
AFL GaryJ  Sheppy is up next.  GA Sheppy
Sheppy     Is there any particular reason why system 6 doesn't allow resource
           names to...
Sheppy     be passed to tool calls (ie, NewWindow2)?  Seems like it should
           be...
Sheppy     easy enough to implement.
AFL GaryJ  (We're playing "Stump the experts" tonight.  PROTOCOL for
           questions only)
AFL GaryJ  Hmm, that looks like a "fix this" question....
Da Experts Answer:  Yes.  GA.
Sheppy     (no, just curious why...)
Da Experts (You phrased your question....poorly.)
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, experts.
AFL GaryJ  (If the Experts can't answer, you will a free hour of online
           time)
WinkieJim  ?
Da Experts Because it would add a fourth again as many instances to each of
           the calls referenced, and would
Da Experts require patching bunches of stuff out of ROM, and it's easy enough
           to get the resource ID from the
Da Experts name yourself.  (Dave apologizes that the toolbox still leaves
           some code for you to write.)  <GA>
AFL GaryJ  (Questions MUST be of an Apple II Technical nature, or development
           question)
AFL GaryJ  Thank you experts!
AFA Jay    Q = FredW GS, WinkieJim
AFA Jay    :)
AFL GaryJ  Next question is from FredW GS again.  GA Fred
FredW GS   What is the maximum sampling rate of the GS's Ensoniq chip?
AFA Jay    GO!
AFA Jay    30 seconds :)
AFL GaryJ  We need some Jeopardy music or something :)
AFA Jay    5
AFA Jay    4
AFA Jay    3
AFA Jay    2
AFA Jay    1
AFA Jay    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUZZ!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Da Experts Heck if we know.  :)
AFL GaryJ  Looks like Fred got it!
Sheppy     :: applause ::
AFL GaryJ  Way to go, Fred!
Da Experts Do _you_ know?  You can't win if you don't have an answer.  :)
Sheppy     <--- patting Fred on the back... :)
FredW GS   Oh....I need an answer  :)
AFL GaryJ  Ah, you're gonna make them answer it too?  :) 
Da Experts Well, it's clear there is an answer, so give it to him.  It will
           just take us a while to calculate it.
Da Experts (GA)
AFL GaryJ  Ok, I think for the sake of having questions that are indeed
           answerable it would
AFL GaryJ  be good if the person asking has the answer to the question.  But,
           as was already noted,
AFL GaryJ  this particular question does indeed have an answer, but the
           "experts" didn't 
AFL GaryJ  know it :)
AFL GaryJ  (We'll give it to you, Fred :)
FredW GS   The answer is 32258Hz...sorry I froze for a second.
AFA Jay    Q = WinkieJim
Barnabas   ?
AFL GaryJ  GA with your question, Winkie
WinkieJim  What, if any, is the proceedure to take a keypress processed by a
           key
WinkieJim  translation and convert it back to it's original keypress?
AFA Jay    GO
Da Experts There is no well-defined procedure for doing that, because the raw
           key -> translated key is not a
Da Experts one-way function -- several keypresses can translate into the same
           ASCII code.  So there is
Da Experts no "perfect" procedure to always do this.  <GA>
AFL GaryJ  Does that sit well with you, Jim?
AFL GaryJ  :)
WinkieJim  dang, these experts are no better than me...I was hoping they
           would come up
WinkieJim  with better solutions that I did to my problems :):)
AFL GaryJ  LOL!  :)
Da Experts <Wrong -- we _knew_ you couldn't do it.  <grin>>
FredW GS   ?
AFA Jay    Q = Barnabas, FredW GS :)
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, Jim.   Barnabas has the next question.  GA
Barnabas   What steps are necessary to turn on shadowing in all banks without
           messing up
Barnabas   interrupts or other system things?
AFA Jay    GO
Da Experts There's a shadowing register you can use to do it, but it's
           incredibly unsupported and it can't be
Da Experts done without messing up things.  It basically turns every bank
           into a "language card" type situation
Da Experts so there's not the standard memory mapping, and every IIgs app in
           the world will break if you
Da Experts try it.  So that's a "you can't do that either" question.  <GA>
AFL GaryJ  How does that sound for you, Barnabas?
Barnabas   Not quite sure.  Couldn't you just switch the banks back whenever
           you made a
Barnabas   system call or from the main interrupt vector?
Da Experts No...shadowing is one-way -- writing to bank zero writes to all
           other banks so none of the memory
Barnabas   (Implemented by main application)
Da Experts management software will work.  If a DA has memory in bank three,
           turning on all-bank shadowing makes
Da Experts any writes to bank zero write to bank three (and all other banks),
           trashing everyone's memory.
Da Experts Just turning it off around system calls can't fix this.  Sorry.
Da Experts <GA>
AFA Jay    Q = FredW GS
WinkieJim  ?
AFL GaryJ  Ok, thanks Experts, Barnabas
AFL GaryJ  Next question is from FredW GS.  GA, Fred
FredW GS   Is it possible to have a 3200 color, 640 mode viewer using
           mini-palettes and
FredW GS   palette swapping?
AFA Jay    GO
Da Experts Yes, but you have restrictions on which columns of pixels can
           display which colors due to dithering.
FredW GS   OK, I thought so...was wondering why it hadn't been
           done...thanks.
Da Experts Doing mini-palettes not quite like the book says, it should be
           possible, but not easy and it might
Da Experts not look good.  <GA>
AFA Jay    Q = WinkieJim :)
Da Experts I explained Greg's thing wrong -- writing to every bank shadows to
           E0/E1, not the other way around...
Da Experts ...but since all of E0/E1 isn't available to applications and some
           belongs to the system, you
Da Experts can't do it without saving/restoring memory.  We go the basic
           answer right the first time, though.
Da Experts <GA>
AFL GaryJ  Thanks.
AFL GaryJ  (for the clarification)
Nuzz       ?
AFL GaryJ  Next question is from WinkieJim.  GA Winkie
Barnabas   ?
WinkieJim  What is the the AppleSoft error number for the ?ReDIM'd Array
           error? GA
AFA Jay    GO!
AFL GaryJ  <heheh>
AFA Jay    30 secs
AFA Jay    15
Da Experts In decimal, it seems to be 120.
AFA Jay    5
AFL GaryJ  (now WHERE did we put that AppleSoft reference manual?)
WinkieJim  darn!
AFL GaryJ  LOL! :)
AFA Jay    Oooo!!!
AFL GaryJ  Close, Jim.  Too bad, though.
Da Experts (Didn't find the book -- we tried it live.)
Sheppy     (The depths to which the experts will sink... :)
AFA Jay    Q = Nuzz, Barnabas
AFL GaryJ  Ok, I think Mike (Nuzz) has the next question.  GA
Nuzz       With tool 35 what Midi status message would I use to set the
           volume on channel 3
FredW GS   ?
AFA Jay    GO
AFA Jay    30
AFA Jay    15
AFA Jay    5
AFA Jay    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUZZ!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Nuzz       wish I could see the pages flying :)
Da Experts We have no MIDI Synth docs here.  :(
Da Experts (So he gets his hour but we have to pass on future MS
           questions...sorry)
AFL GaryJ  Oooh... I think they just let out a little secret :)
AFL GaryJ  Oh, darn :)  Yeah, Mike!
Jim Murphy ?
AFA Jay    Q = Barnabas, FredW GS, Jim Murphy
Da Experts The "MIDI Synth" question has already stumped the experts, so you
           can't ask 'em again.  Sorry.  :)
AFL GaryJ  Ok.  To be fair, no more MIDI Synth questions, please :)
Da Experts (Well, that's Gary's call, but if you insist it will be pretty
           boring.  <GA>)
AFL GaryJ  Next question is from Barnabas.  GA
Sheppy     ?
Barnabas   Darn, I had a MS question.  But also, I wanted to comment on their
           answer to 2
Barnabas   previous questions.  Why can't a DA patch PostEvent to find out
           what the
Barnabas   original option key press was, and intercept the value entirely if
           a flag
Barnabas   in the main program indicates it is the front window?
Da Experts Because the key's already been translated by the keyboard
           interrupt handler by the time PostEvent
Da Experts sees it.
Barnabas   #2: Also, there is no reason why an app can't turn on shadowing in
           all banks
Barnabas   as long as it doesn't write to any locations it doesn't mean to
           change, and it
Barnabas   switches the shadowing off around IRQ and tool/OS calls.
Da Experts Yes there is.
Barnabas   (Just checked the call bit, not the IRQ bit).
Da Experts If you have any code exeucting in the $C000-$D000 range, shadowing
           will translate it to a softswitch
Da Experts read and you'll hose the system, and you have to know _which
           areas_ of E0/E1 you can't change, which
Da Experts aren't exactly documented.  <GA>
Barnabas   Ah-ah-ah... I use bank-aligned code.
Da Experts So?
AFA Jay    ?
AFA Jay    Q = FredW GS, Jim Murphy, Sheppy, AFA Jay
AFL GaryJ  Ok, Next question is from Fred again.  GA Fred
FredW GS   Output from the DOC is fed to an audio amplifier, which is fed to
           four
FredW GS   easily accesible locations...where are they and what impedence
           load are they
FredW GS   capable of driving?  GA
AFA Jay    GO!
AFA Jay    30
Da Experts Clarification:  What is "location"?  On the motherboard, or a pin,
           or what?
FredW GS   OK, 3 are external to the GS case...those will be sufficient.
AFA Jay    Ok, 30 secs left now :)
AFA Jay    15
FredW GS   Sorry only two are...two are internal.
Da Experts Let's see...there's the headphone jack and the six-pin Molex
           connector and the internal speaker
Da Experts and maybe the video jack, and the output impedance across systems
           can range from 4.5 Kohm to 9 KOhm.
Da Experts (According to IIgs TN #9.)  That "location" bit was confusing.
Da Experts <GA>
FredW GS   What load may I connect to the speaker jack?
Da Experts Wait -- you didn't ask that originally.  :)
AFL GaryJ  Hmm... it seems the question gets more and more refined :)
Da Experts You said you wanted output impedance, and we gave that -- you
           didn't say you wanted it for each
Da Experts location, just what they were capable of driving.
AFL GaryJ  What is the actual question, Fred?  Is the answer they gave
           suitable for your
AFL GaryJ  original wording?
FredW GS   Yes, what are they capable of driving...not the output
           impedance.
FredW GS   I may connect a load...what impedance is acceptable.
Da Experts "What impedance load are they capable of driving" is what you
           asked.  But the judges decide.  :)
AFL GaryJ  Yes, that was the question as I read it 
FredW GS   OK, the time is not important the info is...The amplifier is
           capable of
AFL GaryJ  I think they answered according to your question (they answered
           appropriately)
FredW GS   driving a 600 ohm load.
Da Experts Where do you know this from, Fred?
FredW GS   Apple IIgs Tech Reference.
FredW GS   Author Fischer.
Da Experts That's Fischer's book -- it only applies to ROM 0 machines because
           that's what he had at the time.  :)
Da Experts (We willl, though ,accept the opinion of the judges so we can move
           along.)
AFL GaryJ  That's a valid reference, but we need to make sure the question is
           clear.
AFL GaryJ  In this case, I think they answered according to the information
           that was sent in the
AFL GaryJ  chat room.
FredW GS   Though that is normal for this amplifier.
YSM Jim    ?
M Wolfgram ?
AFA Jay    Q = Jim Murphy, Sheppy, YSM Jim, M Wolfgram, AFA Jay
AFL GaryJ  Next question is from Jim Murphy
AFL GaryJ  GA, Jim
Jim Murphy Using the AppleTalk Session Protocol, what is the definition of
           QuantumSize? <GA>
AFA Jay    GO!
Da Experts Do you mean the generic definition or what the flow Quantum is on
           the IIgs?
Jim Murphy The generic definition, not the specific value.
AFA Jay    30
AFA Jay    15
Da Experts The flow quantum is the only size packet that can flow across the
           given AppleTalk network.  For the
Da Experts IIgs, the flow quantum is always 512 bytes.  <GA>
AFL GaryJ  How's that, Jim?
AFL GaryJ  Is that answer acceptable to you?
Jim Murphy Hmmm, I was going for the ASP QuantumSize - 4624 bytes (eight ATP
           packets with 578 bytes).
Da Experts Sounds like he wins.  I made up my answer.  :)
AFA Jay    HA :)
Jim Murphy :-)
AFL GaryJ  Yea, Jim!
Da Experts Keep 'em coming.
FredW GS   ?
Barnabas   ?
AFA Jay    Q = Sheppy, YSM Jim, M Wolfgram, FredW GS, Barnabas, AFA Jay
AFL GaryJ  Ok, next question is from Sheppy.  GA
Sheppy     What's the format of the System Loader's Mark list? GA.
AFA Jay    GO!
AFA Jay    30
AFA Jay    15
AFA Jay    5
AFA Jay    1
AFA Jay    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUZZ!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
AFL GaryJ  Ooohh...
AFA Jay    silence :)
AFL GaryJ  Looks like you got them!
Da Experts It's not publicly documented and we couldn't think of it.
Da Experts <GA>
Sheppy     Cool.  Page 202 of the ProDOS 16 Reference. GA
AFL GaryJ  What's the answer, Sheppy?
Sheppy     long <next space available>, long <end of table>, word <load seg.
           no>, ...
Sheppy     long <file mark>... (repeats here out).
Da Experts Oh, that's outdated.  :)
AFL GaryJ  Ah, ProDOS 16 reference?  :)
Da Experts But ExpressLoad (== current System Loader) doesn't do that.  :) 
           Whatever the judges want, though.
AFL GaryJ  That's ok, it'll work.  (The integer BASIC manual is outdated too,
           but it will work as well :)
AFA Jay    Q = YSM Jim, M Wolfgram, FredW GS, Barnabas, AFA Jay
AFL GaryJ  Yes, if the question must apply to a SPECIFIC VERSION of software,
           that must be
AFL GaryJ  specified in the question (but this question was acceptable)
AFL GaryJ  Ok, Next question is from YSM Jim.  GA
YSM Jim    How can I determine the 'Help' key has been pressed on an Apple
           Extended Kybd
YSM Jim    II.  GA.
AFA Jay    GO!
AFA Jay    30
Da Experts You check the modifiers register as well as the key returned in
           the hardware.  The keypad bit is set..
Da Experts ...and the key is lowercase "r".  <GA>
AFL GaryJ  Oooh... THat SOUNDS good, (if it wasn't made up :)
YSM Jim    Is there anything easier?
Da Experts No -- that's how you read it.  It's like detection option-r...you
           just have to do it this way.  <GA>
YSM Jim    Thanks (I think)
AFL GaryJ  Sorry, Jim (you didn't stump them)
AFL GaryJ  (But you got a good answer :)
AFA Jay    Q = M Wolfgram, FredW GS, Barnabas, AFA Jay
AFL GaryJ  Next question is from M Wolfgram.  GA
M Wolfgram What is the maximum number of resources of a single type that
           RMover is capable of handling?
AFA Jay    GO!
AFA Jay    30
Da Experts We've never shipped a supported rMover, so we classify this as
           trivia.  :)
Sheppy     (that ain't an answer, is it? :)
AFA Jay    [they don't know] ;)
AFA Jay    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUZZ!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
M Wolfgram Ok... but I'd still like to know someday :)
Sheppy     (doesn't look like it) :)
Da Experts (We haven't a clue, but we don't think it's a technical or
           development question.)
Da Experts Hey -- he doesn't know either!  No fair!
AFL GaryJ  Well, I think I'd have to agree with the Experts on that.
M Wolfgram Less than 1381 :)
AFL GaryJ  :)
Da Experts (Dave theorizes it's however much Andy/Llew could cram in the
           list, so we guess it's 64K/whatever the
Da Experts record size is for list members, but we don't know what that is.) 
           GA
AFA Jay    Q = FredW GS, Barnabas, AFA Jay
AFL Marty  ?
AFL GaryJ  Ok, Next question is from FredW GS.  GA Fred
FredW GS   What is the approximate voltage levels for the GS's composite
           video for white..
FredW GS   and sync...the levels out of the composite connector?? GA.
Da Experts Wait:
Da Experts "What are the approximate voltages out of the composite connector
           for white and sync?", right?
FredW GS   Correct.
AFA Jay    Stalling tactics :)
Da Experts Trying to get the question clear _first_ this time.  :)
AFA Jay    GO!
AFA Jay    30
AFA Jay    15
AFA Jay    5
AFA Jay    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUZZ!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Da Experts 2.000v
AFL GaryJ  Too late :)
Da Experts  for white and 0 for sync.  
Da Experts (these pages stick together on this old book!)
Sheppy     :: applause ::
FredW GS   That _IS_ correct.
AFL GaryJ  Didn't start answering before the buzzer (but it IS reassuring
           that you
AFL GaryJ  at least knew the answer :)
Da Experts I typed it before the buzzer, but it didn't come across in time.
AFL GaryJ  :)
Sheppy     Correction: "were able to look up the answer." :)_
AFL GaryJ  Yeah, right :)
Da Experts (Oh well -- at least Fred can't ask us any more hardware
           questions!)
AFL GaryJ  Fred gets another free hour!
Sheppy     :: applause and cheers ::
AFA Jay    Q = Barnabas, AFA Jay, AFL Marty
AFL GaryJ  Question, From Baranabas now.  GA
Barnabas   I wish to lodge a protest against the answer to my shadowing
           question.  Accor-
Barnabas   ding to the Apple IIGS Hardware reference, the Bank Shadowing bit
           in the Speed
Barnabas   register, "Shadow registers bits 0 through 4 will determine which
           portions, if
Barnabas   any, of the banks will be shadowed."  Thus, the code can run
           anywhere that
Barnabas   isn't explicitly shadowed by the shadowing registers.  I just
           wrote a program
Barnabas   to test this (disabling interrupts while it ran) and it worked
           perfectly,
Barnabas   logging the values and values changed by the Shadow in All Banks
           option.
Da Experts You're true.  But if you have to turn off shadowing (at least one
           1 MHz softswitch access) on every...
Barnabas   Needless to say, as long as I turned off shadowing before I
           disabled interrupts
Barnabas   everything worked fine.
Da Experts IRQ you add so much latency to the main interrupt handler that
           AppleTalk will no longer function...
Da Experts ...to specification, and you _did_ say "without messing up
           interrupts or system stuff."
Barnabas   I'm not sure this is the case.  Anyway, I can do what I need to do
           during
Da Experts We stand by our original answer, and remind you that we are going
           to pick on you until you grow old
Da Experts for insisting on doing such a silly thing to begin with.  :)
Barnabas   interrupt disabled time, within tolerance of max. interrupt
           disable time for
Barnabas   AppleTalk.  Face it.  You're wrong.
Da Experts <pick pick pick pick pick pick pick pick>
Barnabas   Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!
Jim Murphy Quit winning. Please!
Da Experts How have you tested this with AppleTalk?  (You're grasping at
           straws, Templeman!)  :)
Barnabas   Haven't tested it with AppleTalk!  Just held to the max. IRQ
           disable specs
Barnabas   for AppleTalk.
Da Experts There is no "maximum IRQ disable spec." for AppleTalk.
AFL GaryJ  The answers was qualified originally (I may have to check the log
           on this :)
AFA Jay    Q = AFA Jay, AFL Marty
AFL GaryJ  Ok, for the time being, let's go on to Jay's question.  GA Jay
AFA Jay    Tell me, what is the difference between the entry points in bank
           $00 of.......
AFA Jay    decimal 65381 and 65385
AFA Jay    GO!
AFL GaryJ  <-- double checking Jay's timer :)
AFA Jay    1 second left (j/k) ;)
AFL GaryJ  LOL!
AFL GaryJ  30 seconds
AFL GaryJ  5
AFL GaryJ  2
Da Experts Oh, those are the two monitor entry points.  $FF65 (the first one)
           beeps...
AFL GaryJ  1
AFL GaryJ  Buzzz
Da Experts ...and the other one $FF69 doesn't.  There may be more difference
           on the IIgs, but not on all Apple
Da Experts II machines.  <GA>
AFA Jay    dang!
Sheppy     :: awwwwww! ::
AFL GaryJ  That was close :)
AFA Jay    MON and MONZ, there's no difference except for that MON clears
           decimal mode :)
AFA Jay    call -151 and call -155 :)
Da Experts (That's not documented, by the way, Jay.  Just the beeping.)
AFA Jay    Page 255 in my Firmware Ref it says :)
Da Experts Oh, I guess it is documented now that it clears decimal mode. 
           Didn't used to be, but it is now.
Sheppy     (Jay's right -- it _is_ documented on 255) :)
AFA Jay    in any case, Q = AFL Marty :)
AFL GaryJ  You should have phrased your question differently, Jay.  That
           would have gotten it :)
AFL GaryJ  Marty has the next question.  GA, Marty
AFL Marty  List the ways in which legal ProDOS filenames differ from legal
           filenames...
AFL Marty  under ISO 9660.
AFA Jay    GO!
AFL GaryJ  List?  :)
Sheppy     :: oooooooh! ::
AFL GaryJ  (All they have to do is START to answer before the buzzer)
AFA Jay    30
AFA Jay    15
AFA Jay    5
Da Experts 1) Filesnames can begin with a digit in ISO
AFA Jay    >>>>>>>>>>>>>> BUZZ!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
AFL GaryJ  OOoooh.
Sheppy     :: aaaaaahhhhh! ::
AFA Jay    another 30 seconds to finish :)
AFL GaryJ  (Make sure they get them right!)
Da Experts 2)  There are filename extensions and version numbers for ISO
           filenames, but not for ProDOS.
Sheppy     :: crowd noise ::
Da Experts 3)  Directories have only file names; other files may have file
           names plus extensions and version 
Da Experts numbers, but files can't be identified by version alone.
Da Experts 4)  The file name must be followed by a period.
Da Experts (And the extension must be followed by a ; and the version can be
           1-6 digits...do I need to go on?)
AFL GaryJ  What do you think, Marty?
AFL Marty  My reference only lists two.
AFL GaryJ  Which two?  (And which reference?)
AFL Marty  1. ProDOS filenames allow multiple periods; ISO 9660 filenames do
           not.
AFL Marty  2.  ISO 9660 requires both period and semicolon occur as
           seperators
AFL Marty  in each filename, and the semicolon has to be followed by a
           version number.
AFL Marty  GSOS Reference, page 428
Da Experts I didn't specifically list those two, but I listed many
           differences.  Judges?
AFL GaryJ  You did list many differences.....  (just a sec)
Da Experts (I was on GS/OS reference, page 300)
Sheppy     Question did ask for "all differences" did it not? :)
Da Experts Yeah, if you're not on that page it's weird, because just a "file
           name" isn't a sufficiently
Da Experts unique identifier in ISO like it is in ProDOS.
AFL Marty  The original question said "List the ways..."
AFL GaryJ  I think Da Experts specified that there were more...
Da Experts (We defer to judges so we can move on.  ISO gives us a
           headache.)
AFL GaryJ  Sounds like it's a multiple answer question.
AFL GaryJ  I think (because that was the last official question) that I'll
           give it to Marty.
AFL GaryJ  Ok, that was the last official question of the night.  If anyone
           wants to
AFL GaryJ  stay and ask some real questions that have been bugging you for
           awhile,
AFL GaryJ  you are all welcome to do so.
AFL GaryJ  Let me re-cap the winners tonight....
AFL GaryJ  Winners:   FredW GS   = 2 hours
AFL GaryJ             Mike Nuzz  = 1 hour (to be dontated)
AFL GaryJ             Jim Murphy = 1 hour
AFL GaryJ             Sheppy     = 1 hour 
AFL GaryJ             AFL Marty  = 1 hour (to be donated)
Sheppy     :: cheer, cheer, whistle, shout, applaud ::
Da Experts Greg:  There is no "maximum AppleTalk IRQ delay" or whatever.  You
           have 104 microseconds from the...
Da Experts time the IRQ fires to read the data from the SSC or you lose some
           of it -- and that's a _MAXIMUM_,
Da Experts assuming interrupts weren't disabled when the IRQ fired.  This is
           from the Firmware Reference and new
Da Experts Apple IIgs Technical Note #105, "We Interrupt This CPU...".
Da Experts You can _not_ guarantee you can always save and restore shadowing
           within that limit, so you can't
Da Experts guarantee your scheme will work without messing up AppleTalk. 
           This is why we say "no."
Da Experts (Eric:  The relevant information is in Firmware Reference, Chapter
           6)
Barnabas   I don't have my AppleTalk reference here (at work), but I recall a
           section
Barnabas   stating "If you must disable interrupts" and then give a
           recommended maximum...
Barnabas   I think it was 50 ms or so...  But, in any case, I KNOW from a
           main IRQ vector
Barnabas   patch DESIGNED TO PASS MESSAGES UNDER APPLETALK that there is some
           tolerance
Barnabas   for additional overhead in the main IRQ vector (maybe not much,
           but the same
Da Experts (You're probably reading the old beta AppleShare Programmer's
           Guide, which was full of stuff like
Da Experts that.)
Barnabas   kind of things done in that patch would be done in mine) AND IT 
           didn't break
Barnabas   AppleTalk!  So there! :Q
Da Experts At the minimum, you degraded AppleTalk performance because you're
           now missing packets.
Da Experts If you do shadow stuff on _every_ IRQ, you could easily on some
           systems miss every packet and kill
Da Experts AppleTalk.  We _all_ wish there was more interrupt latency, but
           there's not, and we gotta live with it
Barnabas   It was maybe five cycles of additional overhead.  I WOULDN'T miss
           packets if
Barnabas   the other patch (which had more overhead) didn't!
Da Experts the way it is -- which is lousy.  IIgs TN #105 makes it clear that
           patching the main interrupt
Da Experts vector is only very rarely acceptable (in about 5% of the cases
           where people now do it).
Da Experts Five cycles is a lot when interrupts were already disabled when
           the IRQ fired, and the system is
Da Experts running in 1 MHz speed (like for a disk controller).
Barnabas   The main vector is not currently RIGHT AT TOLERANCE... there is
           still room for
Barnabas   some additional overhead, as is clear from the previous example
           (which worked
Barnabas   ONLY under AppleTalk!)
Da Experts There is some room -- last time we calculated, we found there was
           room for about 3 more instructions
Da Experts at 2.5 MHz speed (or less than one instruction at 1 MHz) and still
           guarantee you _won't_ lose data.
Barnabas   However, the other ramification of my IRQ patch is I only need it
           current when
Barnabas   I KNOW system speed is 2.5 MHz, since I KNOW I'm the app in
           control.
Sheppy     (assuming you're the only person patching the vector, right?)
Da Experts (Sheppy:  Right)
Barnabas   In any case, in order for Sound Tools to work, YOU CAN'T HAVE
           APPLETALK ACTIVE
Barnabas   ANYWAY!  AND SINCE MY APP DOES SOUND TOOLS, YOUR COMMENTS ARE MOOT
           POINTS, EVEN
Barnabas   IF THEY WERE ACCURATE (WHICH THEY WEREN'T IN THIS CASE!)
AFA Jay    DON'T YELL
AFL Marty  Geez... mellow out.
YSM Jim    PLEASE.
Barnabas   I have a working model of this useful technique, and they are just
           sore they
Barnabas   answered wrong.