America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, January 26, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Chat with Mike Westerfield from the Byte Works Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ Tonight, we have Mike Westerfield here with us, from the Byte Works, as our AFL GaryJ special guest. Mike is here to talk about his latest release, ORCA/C 2.0, and whatever AFL GaryJ other products he wishes to discuss, and to answer your questions. AFL GaryJ Before we get to the questions, Mike, could you give us a rundown of AFL GaryJ ORCA/C 2.0? (Many people have questions on the shipping status, as well) MikeW50 What, me talk? Of course! MikeW50 As I hope you are all becomming aware, ORCA/C 2.0 is our latest version of MikeW50 ORCA/C. There are a lot of new features in this package, but the main ones MikeW50 are: MikeW50 1. Support for the ORCA 2.0 environment, which takes full advantage of the MikeW50 current Apple system disk (6.0). MikeW50 2. PRIZM 2.0, which supports the 2.0 shell, System 6.0, and adds many new MikeW50 features, like debugging structures. MikeW50 3. A C compiler with a revamped code generator that creates significantly MikeW50 smaller, faster programs by imporving basic code generation (especially for MikeW50 arrays) and by adding some new optimizations, principally loop invariant MikeW50 removal and common subexpression elimination. I'd be happy to go into those, MikeW50 but I'll wait for questions, in case you're not interested. :) MikeW50 The big question that gets asked a lot is shipping dates. Yes, ORCA/C 2.0 is MikeW50 shipping, but it's going slow. We don't sell as many of a particular program MikeW50 as we used to, and that's caused us to change our production techniques. We're MikeW50 still getting the kinks worked out. Basically, we're roughly up to mid-Dec. MikeW50 in shipping orders for C 2.0, and expect to finish Dec. in a week or so. Right MikeW50 now, if you order, expect a 3-4 week delay. That should drop to 1-2 weeks by MikeW50 mid Feb. if we continue to work things out at about the curretn rate. That's MikeW50 about what we've always had for a delay. MikeW50 Again, I'd be happy to answer detailed questions about production, but I'll MikeW50 leave that for questions. AFL GaryJ Thanks, Mike. Ok, we'll open things up for questions now. Looks like Smullen raised AFL GaryJ his hand first. If any of the rest of you have questions in mind, go ahead and put your "?" up AFL GaryJ and we'll put you in the queue. GA, Smullen Smullen I learned Pascal on the Mac (think) and was REALLY disappointed in ORCA Pascal Smullen v1.0, will C v2.0 be less of a hassle? (like not having to declare EVERY Smullen little thing you're going to do...) MikeW50 Are we talking about C or Pascal? (And a lot of my cusomers tell me the same MikeW50 thing... that they're disapointed in Turbo C or Mac C or Mac Pascal after MikeW50 using ORCA products. Some of that is what you are use to.) ga Smullen I was planning to learn C, and I would LIKE to do it on my GS, but Smullen Pascal on the GS was a royal pain. Do you believe ORCA C 2.0 will be easier Smullen than the difference between Think Pascal and ORCA Pascal? Am I making sense? MikeW50 You're making sense, but your question isn't specific enough. ORCA/Pascal is MikeW50 ISO Pascal. It shouldn't be asking you to declare things that THINK Pascal MikeW50 didn't ask you to declare. ORCA/C is ANSI C. As much as it's possible to MikeW50 move an ANSI C program between any two compilers, you should be able to move MikeW50 them between ORCA/C and any other ANSI C compiler. THINK products are not MikeW50 standard, but they are close, and you should be able to move non-toolbox MikeW50 programs relatively easily, assuming you follow the normal rules for writing MikeW50 portable C programs. MikeW50 Could you give me some specific example of a problem? I might be able to MikeW50 address a specific issue better. ga Smullen More specific: Is ORCA C 2.0 closer to Think C than ORCA Pascal is to Think C? MikeW50 The differences in the languages depend more on you and how you use them than MikeW50 on any other single factor. Without a specific issue, I'm afread that's the MikeW50 best I can do. ga Smullen I noticed ORCA uses totally non standard fonts, dialog boxes, and makes you Smullen declare little thing like if you want to write text, you have to declare it, Smullen with Think, you don't. Maybe I'll continue this discussion with you on the Smullen phone sometime instead of hogging the floor here... MikeW50 1. Fonts: that has nothing to do with Pascal. It was done for speed, and did MikeW50 not change in the latest version. MikeW50 2. THINK Pascal predeclares the toolbox. That's something no other compiler MikeW50 I know of, even Apple's Mac compilers, do. ORCA/Pascal and ORCA/C both MikeW50 require the normal includes or uses statements, but once they are in, you have MikeW50 access to the tools. AFL GaryJ Thanks, Mike. Unsigned I was wondering if you heard about what the internet was doing and if you Unsigned ever used IRC [Internet relay Chat] for the //gs group of people on the internet MikeW50 OK, I'll try to answer your question, Unsigned. I am aware that Internet is MikeW50 here, but I do not have direct access to it. You can reach me here from MikeW50 Internet mail, and I try to answer those questions, but that's about it. AFL GaryJ Go ahead with your comment, Unsigned Unsigned I know they would really like to be able to talk to you. They are thinking of Unsigned trying to make another C compiler for the //gs. I do not know if it will be Unsigned as good as the Orca C 2.0. I was wondering if you had comments on this or knew Unsigned about it? MikeW50 The only new C compiler I know of that was seriously contemplated was a port MikeW50 of GNU C by Jawaid Bazyar & friends. They wanted to be able to port UNIX code MikeW50 easier, and ORCA/C, being ANSI C, didn't make that very easy. (So much for the MikeW50 "portable" language.) Jawaid was heavily involved in beta testing ORCA/C 2.0, MikeW50 and I think he's tabled those plans for now. His goal was to make UNIX porting MikeW50 easier, and we're working to do that within ORCA/C, both by custom versions MikeW50 of the ORCA/C libraries that Jawaid is working on, and by options within MikeW50 ORCA/C 2.0 (some of which are not yet documented, since Jawaid and I are still MikeW50 playing with them.) ga AFL GaryJ GA with your comment, Andy LL AndyW Mike can be reached here by Internet mail at mikew50@aol.com (and on GEnie too, LL AndyW although I don't think that's linked to Internet mail)... AFL GaryJ Unsigned, did you have a follow up question? AFL GaryJ (Go ahead, in any case, you're next) Unsigned Yes. I was wondering if the customization options include any GNO support? Unsigned and how much contact he has with Bazyar and friends? MikeW50 Not directly. Jawaid is sending his adaptation of the ORCA libraries to me ( MikeW50 we discussed this on the phone today), and they may be available in the Byte MikeW50 Wrks library soon. We're still discussing it, but a future version of the MikeW50 libraries may support GNO, ORCA, and Finder. We've talked about all sorts of MikeW50 possibilities, but I don't know which ones will actually come about, yet. ga PYGAR O.K. I'm having a few problems with 1.3. and the toolbox course. PYGAR The rez compiler is giving me lots of trouble. AFL GaryJ Can you be more specific? GA, Andy LL AndyW Must use shell 2.0 to use REZ/DeREZ.. MikeW50 :) I thought he wasn't finished. And no, you don't have to use Shell 2.0. PYGAR I't dosn't want to finish the compile and gives me an error can't open PYGAR /languages / langage/lesson 3/frame.obj MikeW50 What command did you use to compile the Rez file? Are you in the shell or MikeW50 PRIZM? Are you using a script? ga PYGAR prizm, and no I'm not using a script . I'm following your lessons as they come MikeW50 The lessons described using a script -- that's the few lines of code MikeW50 that you save as an EXEC file. I'd suggest doing that. From PRIZM, you have MikeW50 to compile the REZ file separately, using the same base name as the C MikeW50 program. The only trick is to make sure you save the REZ file MikeW50 before compiling it, since Rez doesn't know about the 2.0 MikeW50 shell features. ga AFC DYAJim I just wanted to state, Pygar, that feel free to post any questions that you come up with ... AFC DYAJim ... here in ADV and I'm sure you'll get some prompt answers :-) Good luck! PYGAR So , I have to make sure that I change the buttons to EXE first to save? MikeW50 Change what buttons? The comment about EXEC refers to the script file MikeW50 the course describes. Hang on, I'll get a page number and post it in a minut. MikeW50 Meanwhile, we can continue with anything else you want to ask. ga PYGAR I'm refering to the buttons in the compile menu. ga MikeW50 Basic compiling with Rez is on Page 57. That works. Scripts are described MikeW50 on page 61ff. That is a better way, I think. ga PYGAR done , ga Unsigned I was wondering about the current versions for all of the software but ! C 2.0 Unsigned such as Prizm and the shell, and ASM, etc... MikeW50 I don't remember the exact version numbers on all of the files. These are MikeW50 from memory: MikeW50 Pascal 1.4.1 MikeW50 PRIZM 2.0.0 (in C 2.0) and 1.1 (in Pascal 1.4) MikeW50 Shell 2.0.1 MikeW50 Editor 2.0.0 MikeW50 ORCA/M 2.0.0 MikeW50 (done) AFL GaryJ Let me jump in here and give away a free hour :) AFL GaryJ If those who are elligible to win free online time could type in a number between two and AFL GaryJ twelve, the free time will go to the person who guesses the closest to AFL GaryJ the number of the dice I roll (on screen). Anyone who does not work for AOL is elligible. Sheppy 9 Spottysoft 8 PYGAR 3 James S WI 4 Unsigned 7 OnlineHost AFL GaryJ rolled 2 6-sided dice: 1 5 AFL GaryJ The number was six. Only those numbers before my roll are elligible! AFL GaryJ Unsigned was the closest (with 7) AFL GaryJ Now, back to the chat. PYGAR In the first 2 chapts of toolbox, My machine would lock up using the GetNext PYGAR Event call , is that a common peroblem MikeW50 No, that's not a common problem. If the program is otherwise MikeW50 correct, it should not happen. ga PYGAR I locked up every time I compile and hit the menu bar with that call, AFL GaryJ Any follow up, PYGAR? PYGAR but taskmaster works just fine.. ga MikeW50 PYGAR, all I can say for sure is it worked for me. The programs in the first MikeW50 two chapters worked on my computer, and they've worked for a lot of other MikeW50 people. If they don't work for you, there is a difference between your MikeW50 programs or computer, and the key is to find out what the difference is. ga PYGAR Well I'll look to see whats diferent and all I can think of is the zipgsx. ga MikeW50 I have a Zip card... if it's working right, that's not the issue. ga AFL GaryJ PYGAR, you might want to try posting some code in our message AFL GaryJ boards. Sometimes it's easier to see what's going on when we can see the code. PYGAR O.K. I'll check my code again and let you know. done. AFL GaryJ Let's go on to Unsigned's question. GA, Unsigned. Unsigned Does byteworks offer tech support? Also, how much is it purchased directly? MikeW50 I'm doing tech support now. You don't have to pay extra. You can contact MikeW50 me here on AOL, generally in the ByteWorks industry connection area, by MikeW50 phone, by mail, or on a few other electronic services. ga Unsigned phone? MikeW50 (505) 898-8183, M-F, 8AM-5PM mountain, with an hour off around lunch, and I'm MikeW50 sometimes asleep at 8AM< so its best to try later. :) Unsigned This is your personal phone number?!?! Sheppy The Byte Works' number, Unsigned. :) MikeW50 Heck, no. That's the business line. I used to get tch support calls at MikeW50 2AM, so I have an unlisted personal number. :) ga Matt DTS Of course the Byte Works number is unsigned. Whoever heard of a signed telephone number? :) MikeW50 Yup Litterally. Guy used to call me at 2AM: "Hello, this is Australia calling MikeW50 ..." I guess I talked to the whole country. :) PYGAR Thank you Mike , and is c 2.0 backorderd like toolbox was , I'd hate to wait 2 PYGAR months like the last time?? ga MikeW50 C 2.0 is backordered -- we've changed our production techniques, and are still MikeW50 having trouble. If you order now, expect a 3-4 week wait. If you wait until MikeW50 mid-February, it should improve to about 1-2 weeks. ga PYGAR O.K. PYGAR done James S WI So are you just catching up with all the orders is is it not shipping yet? MikeW50 James, it is shipping, but no, we're not caught up. AFL GaryJ People are indeed receiving ORCA/C 2.0, so it's shipping. Unsigned I already asked.. how much if directly purchased from Byte Works.. Unsigned how much for the upgrades, etc.. MikeW50 The C 2.0 upgrade is $50 plus shipping. If you own another ORCA language, you MikeW50 can buy a new one for $75 during the intro period (I think that ends in March; MikeW50 check your mailer for the exact cuttoff date). ga MikeW50 We certainly don't mind checking your order, although I cant do it while MikeW50 we're chatting, James. Give us a call. Or e-mail me. ga AFL GaryJ You will :) How long ago did you place your order? Mike says that the December orders will AFL GaryJ be all filled in the next week or so. Barnabas What should we be seeing from the Byte Works down the road, product-wise? MikeW50 Pascal 2.0 will ship in the very near future. Modula 2 is comming MikeW50 along, and looks like it might ship around April, give or take a month. MikeW50 Incidentally, we're looking for beta testers for those -- see our MikeW50 industry connection area if you are interested. I'm also planning 2.0 MikeW50 level updates for several of our smaller programs. After that, who knows? MikeW50 We talk about a lot of things, and I'd be happy to hear your suggestions. ga AFL GaryJ Sounds great! (You are keeping busy :) James S WI What is the status of C++? Any plans to do it? MikeW50 C++ is one of the things we talk about seriously. It may happen, but not MikeW50 real soon. ga MikeW50 (At least, not from me.) James S WI Isn't C++ more popular than Modula 2 on other platforms? MikeW50 Yes. But I'm not writting Modula 2, I'm just publishing it and supplying the MikeW50 environment. ga James S WI I C. GA AFL GaryJ Ok, Andy, you're next. GA LL AndyW How long should I wait before trying to get an update to the sublib source? LL AndyW Or, should I wait till after Pascal 2.0 and/or Modula 2 is released?? MikeW50 It's available now, but won;t be advertised. You may want to wait until MikeW50 Pascal 2.0 ships, though, since there will certainly be changes then. ga LL AndyW done AFC DYAJim Pascal and C use the same libraries? LL AndyW Syslib is used by both.. AFL GaryJ Or, Pascal and Modula 2? MikeW50 Some libraries are shared. The Pascal part will change for sure. The C part MikeW50 may actually change for Pascal 2.0, since Jawaid has some changes he wants me MikeW50 to do, and I could slip them in then. ga Sheppy Would those changes affect C users? Would we get updates? MikeW50 At some point, yes. I don't know what changes will be made yet, how they MikeW50 will effect you, or what we'll do. But for SubLib source updates, it's a MikeW50 very volatile time, and you might want to keep that in mind. ga AFL GaryJ Ok, does anyone else have a question for Mike tonight? AFL GaryJ Let me give away another free hour real quick... AFL GaryJ Same thing as last time. If you want a chance at it, type a number between 2 and 12 right now. Sheppy 10 James S WI 7 TD Moose 6 Barnabas 4 Matt DTS 15/3 Unsigned 8 Barnabas pi Spottysoft SQR(4) MikeW50 e OnlineHost AFL GaryJ rolled 2 6-sided dice: 2 3 AFL GaryJ Number is 5 LL AndyW Tie AFL GaryJ We have a 6 and a 4! :) Matt DTS Do I get to pick who gets it? :) Barnabas Spotty... was that an AppleSoft SQR or a Pascal SQR? GNO Jawaid Hey, Matt did '5' (15 / 3) LL AndyW Matt doesn't count! AFL GaryJ Both TD Moose and Barnabas will get a free hour! MikeW50 Spotty cheated. SQR(4) could be 2 or 16, depending on the language. Sheppy Yeah! Spottysoft Applesoft.... I don't do Pascal...yet :) TD Moose Wow! Too cool. Barnabas Don't let Matt choose! (He hates people smarter than him...:) GNO Jawaid Finally! I've been trying to convince people Matt doesn't count for years. GNO Jawaid Glad someone caught on. :-) :-) AFL GaryJ Ok, Anyone else have a question for Mike tonight? TD Moose Did I read that 2.0 C will support Hypercard Xcmds? Sheppy I think so. LL AndyW And Hyperstudio NBAs too.. MikeW50 Yes. It supports HyperCard XCMDs and HyperStudio NBAs directly, more or less MikeW50 like the older versions did NDAs and CDAs. ga TD Moose ga Barnabas What is the sound of one hand typing? If a computer crashes in the forest, and Barnabas there is no GSbug around, does the ADB lock up? AFL GaryJ How philosophical. :) Sheppy Blink, blink. :) AFL GaryJ (Or something) Sheppy Sound of one hand typing: click click click. Sheppy (backspace) Spottysoft Shep.... take notes.... this looks like a good plot line.. :) Sheppy While we're at it: What's the meaning of life? ;) MikeW50 Same as two. Yes. And I only think some of the time, so I only partially MikeW50 exist. ga M Wolfgram 42 Sheppy Mmmm, true, Marc. How many of us use BRK $42 for debugging? :) AFL GaryJ BTW: It is past the one hour scheduled chat time, so if you need to run anytime, Mike, AFL GaryJ just say so. (But, you are very welcome to stay and answer any SERIOUS questions :) James S WI I use BRK $42 M Wolfgram I use brk $EA MikeW50 If there are more questions, I can stay. If not, I better go see if I MikeW50 still have a family. :) AFL GaryJ Does anyone else have a question for Mike? Spottysoft Oh... Mike... I did get my Toolbox C course,. thanks. :) AFL GaryJ Thank you, Mike for coming tonight! MikeW50 Thanks for having me. If you think of anything else, you can get me at MikeW50 Keyword:ByteWorks. See you all later!