_ __ _ __ ___ ___ _ __ ___ ___ (_)_ __ ___ ___ / _| __ _ | '_ ` _ \ / _ \ '_ ` _ \ / _ \| | '__/ __| / _ \| |_ / _` | | | | | | | __/ | | | | | (_) | | | \__ \ | (_) | _| | (_| | |_| |_| |_|\___|_| |_| |_|\___/|_|_| |___/ \___/|_| \__,_| _ _ _ | |_ ___ ___| |__ _ __ ___ __ ____ _ __ _ _ __ __ _ _ __ | |_ | __/ _ \/ __| '_ \| '_ \ / _ \ \ \ / / _` |/ _` | '__/ _` | '_ \| __| | || __/ (__| | | | | | | (_) | \ V / (_| | (_| | | | (_| | | | | |_ \__\___|\___|_| |_|_| |_|\___/ \_/ \__,_|\__, |_| \__,_|_| |_|\__| |___/ A stream of (un)conscious conversation with David Foster aka Huren, Teste, Zhark Records, by Ron Morelli . . . . . . . . . ____ @@@@@@@@@@@@@ . . |....| @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ ____ _______ _____ |....| / @@@@@@@@@ \@ |....| |.......| . |.....| |....| / @@@@@ \ |....| |.......| |.....| |....| | @ | ____ ......|_____ |.....|_| |_ | @ | / | __ |__ | | | ---- | /\ |_/| / |_ ___| __ | ---___ __--- | / |/| /__\ |\ |/ __/__\_ | _ _ | /___ | |/ \| \| \ (_______) |\| --'-'_| |_'-'-- |/| | | | | | | -- | | -- | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \| |/ ___-___ |\/\ | ||| | -___- | ____/__|__| \____ |..|-_-_/- | | [__--_|__|__==___/ ' - - \ ____ / O O ||| || |\ /| | \ - / | __| \ / |____ \ | \_________/ | / _/\/\-/\- \ \o o/ /--- /\_/\/\_ __---- ____ ___\ \O O /__ /____ -___ / ----- \ \o _________ o/ / ----- ---. /__ \__ \o o/ _/ __\ | _/ \o o/ \_ | | \_ \o o/ _/ ___| | ___ \ |o o| / | | | ===== \ |o o| / ======= | | | | ___ =| \ | oo | / | | __ | | | __. | | .___ | | David Foster has lived many lives, some by circumstance, others by choice. Hailing from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Foster was part of the short lived, cult techno group, Teste, and produced the 1992 classic "The Wipe" on Ritchie Hawtin's and John Aquaviva's Probe Records. The group's quick demise led to Foster leaving to New York City where he linked up with Patrick and Rachael who formed the infamous high end/lo-fi Motorhead driven squatter techno label Zhark Recordings. Foster's project, Huren, took what he did in Teste and shattered it to pieces. Ron Morelli caught up with Foster from his Berlin apartment and discussed what its been like to be a "Techno Vagrant" for the last 30 years. Teste's new "Graphic Depictions" LP will appear on L.I.E.S. Records in the near future. RM: I am sitting here with David Foster, Dave has had a long career in the world of electronic music, he’s done many projects: Teste, Huren, , Opgang 2, OH and probably a handful of others that I am not listing. Today we’re just going to be having a conversation with Dave and talk about his weird and strange journey, which started out in Canada, went via New York City to somehow ending up in Berlin. It all starts in the early nineties and I am sure even if we really want to get technical in the eighties. Dave thanks for sitting down with me today to have this conversation. DF: Always a pleasure. RM: So basically I think what I want to talk to you about is your early times making music and coming up in this strange electronic music scene in Toronto, right, because you are from… DF: It’s Hamilton, actually. The Hammer. RM: Hamilton is like a suburb of Toronto or something like that? DF: They call it the GTA, Greater Toronto Area. Now it’s sort of like Toronto “light”, Toronto is so over gentrified now that people come to Hamilton to gentrify it, that’s when I left. RM: Alright, so you are growing up there, you’re a young man, you’re a teeny bopper going to sock hops? DF: Yeah, right...looking for transgressive shit, but something did not click with the rest of the gang there, you know. Hamilton is an odd city because it has a strange sort of music history, because you know Brian Eno lived there for a bit. RM: So, I don’t know this, why don’t you tell us a bit about the music history in Hamilton and then your involvement in the various scenes there. DF: I don’t know why Eno was in Hamilton, I think he has family there. It was always in the mythology of the city, you would hear about how Brian Eno used to wear his bathrobe on the bus. And David Byrne lived there briefly and Ian Astbury from The Cult...these are the bigger people. There were always rumblings when I was growing up...I would hear about all the shit that happened, like U2 would be taking the bus from Toronto to Hamilton to get flights and people would see them there. There was a bit of a punk background because a lot of the bands there like Teenage Head and Forgotten Rebels, they’d go to New York and play CBGB’s and become friends with the Ramones and so there was a bit of a cross-pollination there in that way. There was a bit of a lunch bucket punk rock scene there with some arty, esoteric music. And then Grande Avenue studio is the famous recording facility, which I actually only ever visited once strangely towards the end of my time in the city. It was the guy who ran the place that told me they had just stolen all of Eno’s VCS synthesizers. Shit! that was all in there. I wanted to see his Putney Synthesizer that he used with Roxy, but it is all gone. RM: How did your path in music start? DF: Just as a kid staying up late watching TV, to be honest. My first exposure to Cabaret Voltaire was seeing a Sensoria video as a kid staying up late to watch, just as the Canadian MTV started, it’s called MuchMusic. There was Mordicai Richler, the author, his son Daniel Richler, who I actually credit to exposing a lot of music, he would always have some interesting guests, he would have Throbbing Gristle on, or the Mary Chain when they were good... Cabaret Voltaire, there was always a sort of interest in that music. RM: So this is almost a Canadian version of MTV's 120 minutes, but maybe this is more subversive, because I don’t think Throbbing Gristle was ever on 120 minutes, not that I know... DF: It was probably Chris & Cosey, I might be getting that wrong, right, and I know for sure Psychic TV was there, because I became friendly with Fred Giannelli years afterwards, so. RM: And they also have one really big hit at some point. I forgot the track but it was that really big one right. DF: TG, Hot on the Heels of Love? RM No, no Psychic TV, so that could easily been. DF: Ah yeah, God Star, I think. RM Right Godstar exactly, it is a cover right? DF: Yeah. That really blew my mind. I think it’s obvious that Cabaret Voltaire influenced what I do, and that Sensoria video (watch it here) https://youtu.be/c2vCpT1H7u0 it’s still in my head all the time....it’s still like just an eleven year old kid seeing all the crane shots it’s just like (laugh), you know, later on in life you realize the song is about doing a lot of drugs. The underlying subversive thing, and from that, its good to have those initial things to start exploring deeper, and think, where does this come from, nothing ever really comes out of nowhere... RM: You’re a drummer so I would feel probably you are maybe playing drums in bands before you got into the heavy duty electronic stuff? DF: Yeah, because drums was actually what I was formally trained on, so my drum teacher was part of Hamilton philharmonic and he had studied under some famous drummers. RM: So you are a real drummer with a real drum teacher, not one of these basement garage rock guys. DF: Yeah it was not blast speed, it was trying to learn some jazz technique, but I don’t know...maybe it was ADD, everything is over diagnosed now, but I could not really focus on and stick with it. RM: Yeah, it’s called being a kid. DF: So I was thinking, why I am learning to play this stuff that I don’t actually like to listen to. Years later I found the kind of jazz I wanted to listen to, but that was just like sort more traditional stuff, like Dave Brubeck and stuff like that. You did not get to Sun Ra, when you’re 10, some kids did, but I didn’t. RM: I don’t know anyone 10 years old listening to Sun Ra, ever. DF: I Just tried to find musicians to play with, it was just shitty high school rock bands, playing Joy Division covers, Sex Pistols and stuff, its terrible. That is where the disillusionment came from, I couldn’t understand at that point, why don’t people want to do something serious, people just wanted to fuck around and look cool. RM: As rock and roll is lot about how you look.. DF: Right...it was not going to work, getting people together for this. And then, around that time at high school I was exposed to more industrial electronic stuff. RM: What years are we talking about now, just to establish a little bit a base? DF: Just maybe about 88. RM: OK. DF: So, 88 was when I was getting really sick of trying to play high school bands, I was like 16, 15 I don’t know. And then my friend Thomas who is kind of still in Teste... we were in high school , Teste was a kind a high school thing and then we involved this other guy, Himadri, so originally a trio. RM: So Teste starts really in 1988 - 89 somewhere around there. DF: The idea for it started around 90, 91, right at the beginning of 91, I think in the 3 years of high school we just listened to as much industrial music as we could. Tom, his father was a professor, he went to San Francisco during one part of the semester and then it was pre-internet, so, we used the send each other audio cassette tapes, be like, hey! I am listening this Killing Joke record or hey you should check out this new beat shit. Every month, we would send cassette tapes in the mail, recording records that we just bought, and he had access to cool music shops in the Bay area. RM: At this point did anyone have any type of equipment, drum machines, Commodore Amigas, or anything like this? DF: That’s not a cool story...I asked my mom to buy me a Yamaha keyboard at the mall (laughing). RM: I think that a lot of stories end up starting out like this. ___________________________________________________________________ |_____________ -- -- - - PSS 480 --- ---- - _____________| |_____________ -- -- --- -- _________ -- --- - _____________| |_____________ --- - -- - | O 23 9 | --- ---- -- _____________| |_____________ _ _ _ _ _ |_________| -- - -- - _____________| |_____________ _ _ _ _ __ __ __ __ _ _ _ _____________| |___________________________________________________________________| | ___-____ __ __ __ __ __ __ ___ __ __ ___ | | ___-____ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ___ __ __ ___ __ __ ___ | | ___________________________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | || | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | || | |___||_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_||___| DF: So, the local shopping mall had these, it’s funny, I actually wish I still had it, because it was a really nasty FM synth, the Yamaha PSS-480 which was like the Casio like home keyboard equivalent of the DX-7. That would be probably my first synth actually, I think, and later on I learned that Stereo Lab and Broadcast used it, it had some cachet to it. RM: When you get this synth, are you like what the fuck am I suppose to do with it...how do I get this to sound like these Wax Trax records, how do I do drums, were you thinking...now what? DF: Well, it was quite small...it’s funny because it was kind of the equivalent of those (organ beatbox rhythm) things that Suicide used. It had the accompaniment like it had a rock drum beat. RM: So you got this synth, you got these two other guys with whom you are exchanging music and figuring stuff out with, and your mind is being blown by hearing all this kind of new stuff... DF Yeah like Front 242, Frontline Assembly, it’s just kind of funny now, years later being in contact with Rhys Fulber...oh I grew up listening to that shit, and now we’re friends, so that’s cool. The thing I like so much about their career is that it veered off in different directions, that’s why I look up to Richard H.Kirk (From Cabaret Voltaire) a lot, he developed, he did not just stuck in the same place all the time. Around that time, we were just teenage kids, you had to sneak into clubs, because of the ID. So we would just wander around depressed... we would do all bad shit that I won’t get into… (laughing) RM: I can imagine what it is. DF: So yeah living the industrial life, right (laughing). But, then we started hearing his techno shit starting getting big, and oh my god there’s this guy in Canada which is actually really popular, let’s go listen to him. RM: Before we get to this guy who is popular in Canada, what is the first techno stuff you guys are hearing and how are you hearing about it? Is it on the radio, or is it just in clubs? DF: I heard house and Chicago tracks, probably when it all came out, they are like 88 right, like Adonis and that stuff. I remember this really dreary... that one of the first clubs that I went to in Burlington, its Club Stars, in which this serial killer used to go, so it is like it’s always had a weird connotation about hearing a lot of the Old Chicago tracks, because I remember when I first heard them, I was hearing those in a club with that fucking serial killer was, you know. RM: Was this serial killer working at the club? DF: No, but he used to stalk, like prowl the place for victims, his name was Paul Bernardo. RM: So you’re just hearing original Chicago house. DF: Yeah, with Nitzer Ebb, because in those days...ah you know ...recently when I’ve been touring with Bestial Mouths, we’ve been playing goth clubs, and it’s so crazy because actually they are playing the same music that I first heard in clubs, it’s like the same exact play list. In those days it would be like they’re playing Joy Division and then they’re gonna play Front 242 Head Hunter. It may have been a little more creative in this club I went to because they would also play Adonis 'No way Back' or something. At least they were throwing something a little bit different in those days. For me it has always been proto-techno, sort of fringe techno, like Liaisons Dangeureuses and Depeche Mode it got me into that stuff...then realizing hearing how Detroit was quite influenced by it. There is this Depeche Mode the Shout Rio mix, from 1981...(listen here) you know that one? That was sort of a proto techno record those guys were influenced by. So, I think, this stuff is all tied together, and I live really close to Detroit, why don’t I go there? RM: Did you go there? DF: Yes, the first time I went was with Himadri and we went to the Detroit regional music conference (DRMC). There...holy shit...this is my music dream here! I met Fred from Psychic TV, Mad Mike, Juan... you know everybody was at these parties for this thing, it was the sort of the proto movement party. RM: This is in a night club? DF: It was spread out throughout the city, I think it was in the UR Underground Resistance warehouse. RM: So what year are we talking now? DF: This is actually right when Teste came out (around 1992) I am jumping over around a bit, so. RM: Before you were saying you were starting to hear about this Canadian DJ guy who was playing techno in Toronto, and you guys figured we should go check this guy out. DF: Yeah, actually I think we checked out John Acquaviva first, because, he was playing somewhere in Toronto. RM: Some people might not know John Acquaviva, he was basically also a producer and DJ on the Plus 8 label. DF: There was Acquaviva and Hawtin that ran it, at that point, and then there was Telenet, the blanket of distribution. RM: Yeah, I think just some people kind of skip over it. DF: Yeah, the history of Plus 8 is a little spotty. RM: Then you check out John Acquaviva... DF: Yeah he was friendly, and he was like, if you got a demo, give it to Rich because I guess Rich was playing in Toronto the next weekend. We were like okay, we’re going to ready, we will record this thing! RM: Now before this demo, have you guys recorded other stuff? Did you have other projects? You recorded or played a lot before? DF: We played just a couple of shows. In Hamilton there was nowhere to play, We had to play the one place...it was like a sports bar. It was for the goth people in the city...anybody who was an outcast came to the show. RM: You are actually bringing all your gear, computers, drum machines? Like you got to get a van to bring all this shit? DF: We did not bring out too many synths, because we used the 4-track. Then we played with Digital Poodle (listen), I think, and later on, Rich and I did a remix for Digital Poodle, they were quite successful in the early nineties, for EBM. https://youtu.be/I4z9PminJpo RM: They’re kind of a cult band, I think. DF: Yeah, Heiki (Sillaste) runs a label I put out some stuff there recently, we remained loosely in contact. RM: Cool. So you guys were like playing some gigs out and it’s three of you at this point. DF: Three of us, yeah, and then the cracks were starting to show I mean like everybody, you know we’re kids, we’re all fucked up people, so, just all the fucked upness was going on in different tangents, then it was just like we all hated each other and wanted to kill each other (laughing). RM: So, before that, you’re playing some gigs, you meet Acquaviva, he’s a cool guy and he’s telling you hey, if you got a demo, give your demo to Richie. DF: And then what happened, well, I was so antisocial, I was so shut-in I couldn’t for the life of me socialize, I was like...'oh god, can you phone them?' So basically Tom phoned John and then they put us on the guest list for this rave in Toronto with Cybersonik, Dan Bell and Rich. So, we were working up the nerve to talk to them, he was really blowing up at that time. We thought we were just going to be these losers giving him a tape. But the funny story is that there was another Canadian DJ who was quite famous at the time, Chris Sheppard, he was the headliner and then Rich and Dan were opening up for him. We figured we’ll just try them both. Actually Rich was I think more successful then Chris at that time, Chris was a total idiot, he was just like 'get away from me' when we tried to give the tape...and Rich was like okay cool give it! He just said 'there just better not be any fucking breakbeats on it'(laughing). Because at that time Toronto was mostly drum and bass kind of music. So his story was that when they drove back from Toronto to Windsor he kept playing the tape over and over again. RM: Your Demo tape? DF: Yeah. RM How many tracks were on the tape? DF: Three, I think, so it is just The Wipe (listen here) and two others… I don’t think they ever saw the light of the day because actually I think they were pretty bad (laughing) and then Himadri and I went to Hawtin’s to do the final recording of the tracks. Actually the mix that everybody likes we recorded in Ancaster at Tom’s place, so that’s the 5am one that everybody liked, but it’s interesting when I talked to Surgeon recently he likes the Sonic Dub mix, that’s the one that he was hyping, and that’s the one we recorded at Hawtin’s, and they’re quite different. Now that I recall that record, it was just two versions of The Wipe and a kind of ambient track. So the record came out and we starting to see some buzz. I was 20 or 21, I was a complete idiot, we couldn’t keep it together... we played just one show in Scotland for Twitch, for Keith McIvor, and then we just broke up after that, because I was just getting too fucked up. https://youtu.be/lBCD9a6xJm4 RM: There was one record, it was a hit back then, and then through the years, I would say that it has become this ambient dub techno cult track too... DF: Yeah, it’s funny even Adam X says it’s kind of trancey (laughing). RM: Yes, but it’s not though. DF: No, no...but I know what he means, because its actually kind of Goa trance. One thing I will say about it, is that a lot of different styles of DJs play it. RM: Right, I think, it’s a testament to the power of the track of course. DF: It’s interesting, because there are some DJs that I know that are totally into that sound and wouldn’t like the stuff that I am releasing nowadays with you, for example. RM: Sure, of course, they would shun that stuff I think. Sonically, I think it’s probably night and day from a lot the stuff you are doing now too. So you had this record, it blows up, but you guys were in your twenties, and like everything in your twenties, you’re not going to hold a band together, and then it essentially was a band with three people, so… DF: And then it became two, and then it became like, fuck everybody, it’s over, forget about it. So, as I say, for me it ends at that show in Glasgow. RM: So that was it, you guys broke up in 1994? DF Yes, that’s what I mean, I was so deluded, it’s like we’re going to become stars...we’re going to become like Aphex Twin and all of this, and then, nothing (laughing). RM: Right, I mean it was the classic thing of having a big record and expectations and then... reality hits I guess... DF: And then it would be like, oh god Rich is not returning my phone calls anymore, oh shit, what’s going on haha. ______ | /-_- \ / /O--O. / \ \ _ / ___ _______ \ / /\ \ - - - \ /----\__ \,\ \ - - - \ / _____ \ \\ \ - - - \ / ______\ \\ \\ \ \ ///\ \_______/ \|___|------' | | RM: So, you guys became 'those guys on the label'... DF: Actually, they stopped doing the label quite soon after that... the nineties ended it. Everybody went off and did their own kind of thing and that’s when I went to New York. RM: So now, Teste is finished and you’re in Hamilton and you’re like I got to get the fuck out of here, I’m gonna go to New York City? DF: Basically, yeah. RM: Did you know this ahead of time, or did you think, I’m packing my shit and getting out of here. DF: Well, it was fortunate because Patrick, Kareem from Zhark, he was actually going to NYU at the time. RM: Ok, I just want to establish this. Patrick, did you know him? Is he Canadian? DF: He’s German. RM: How did you meet him? DF: He is an interesting guy, basically, he’s a German guy that was going to school in the States, he went to NYU, and he just liked to go to techno parties. He missed it from Berlin because he was going to Tresor when it opened, and all the legendary stuff here. He was like, I hope this stuff is in America (laughing), so, he was in New York and then he would come to Detroit and then I met him at a Detroit party through Rachael (Kozak), AKA Hecate, RM: Ok and Rachel was from where originally? DF: She is in Detroit. RM: So now we have this Patrick who is a German living in New York City going in NYU, Rachael who is living in Detroit and you living in Hamilton. DF: It was the way it was in those days, you had to travel to see this stuff, because there was not much locally. RM: Right, it was truly underground, it was a mission to find it..to get there, to be there. I would remember friends of mine always traveling to go to raves for the weekend, usually it would be longer then a weekend and I was just...repulsed by it all, I was like no way, I’m not getting in a car and drive 5 hours to Buffalo to go to a rave...to be cold and on drugs and having that pounding music, no fucking way man. DF: Yeah, it’s harder now at our age to see the appeal of it, but I mean those days it was so life affirming... RM: Sure, it was a truly renegade thing, now it is absolutely commercialized, and back then music was actually being developed as a result of these kind of parties, people were making music to play at the parties, ideas were kind of spawning from doing this stuff, and it’s not to disparage now...but now, kind of anybody can do it and there’s no journey. Silly as it sounds, but there isn't a route leading up to it, you can just one day snap your fingers and decide I want to do this, with very little effort and probably be able to do it and immerse yourself in it, whereas, these other times...I think, it’s probably why also your friendships with these other like-minded people were probably even stronger, because you had to go out of your way to make something happen almost, you know? DF: Yeah. There is dedication to it, there was some enthusiasm... because it was a big deal, it was like, we’re gonna actually do this now. It’s not just sitting around and wait for it to happen. And it was exciting to hear somebody’s records when they came out, like hearing some of the Basic Channel records for the first time, even I heard them when they came out, but the context appeared later, but like the Chicago Jack stuff, just hearing that, it transports me to another dimension, still to this point, it is a different time... RM: Yeah completely. DF: It’s simple music, you know you’re doing some more strictly acid stuff, there isn’t much in it musically ..but yet, it creates something... right? I always like the quote by Mark E Smith, saying that rock and roll isn’t about playing instruments, it’s people mistreating instruments to get out emotions. RM: Right, I think that makes perfect sense. So now, you decide to get the hell out of Toronto and you’re going to New York City and you already have this guy down there, Patrick, you’ve got a friend over there, you’re in touch with him. DF: Yeah by phone, and I was like ah god I’d hope they’re not too fucked up to meet me at Port Authority (laughing). RM: What’s year is it? DF: This is ’95. Yeah, just over a year after Teste had sort of crashed. RM: So, you jump into New York city in 95, which is still, the city is pretty damn raw, it’s not 1980’s raw but it’s pretty wild still, kind of anything goes. DF: Yeah, for me, it was.. I took acid on the greyhound bus to New York. Here I am going down there, tripping, and I had probably like 5 g’s worth of gear with me. o o o o o o o o o o o o _________________________________________________ / \__\ \_____________________________\ /__________________\__\___________________________ \ _| \\ || || || // || \ |__ ___ / | \\_____||______||______||_____//_____||_____| | \__ \___/ |_____/__\ \___\__ __________________________| \ |_________\__________________________________________| | ___ ____ ________________________ _______ ____| |_____/ \__________________________/ \/ \_____| |____| |__| |________________________| |_| ||_| |____| \____/ \___/\___/ RM: Under the bus, in the greyhound? DF: Yeah, and then just hoping they were going to be there when I get there because I know they are party people (laughing). But luckily, they were there to meet me, but I will never forget stepping off the bus, and I was thinking wow! RM: It just hit you. Had you been to New York before? DF: No, that was my first time. RM: So this is kind of the dream...? DF: Yeah you know, but all I knew of New York was from movies, like Abel Ferrara shit...Bad Lieutenant and Driller Killer, I’m like yeah this is gonna be crazy (laughing). I was always looking for a weird connection. Anyway, those were like some of my New York imprint kind of things and the funny story is the building that I stayed in, do you know the building Zeckendorf Towers with the pyramids? RM: Hum.. no DF: It’s right across the street from the Palladium, Park Avenue. So anyway it was because Patrick, his family’s business is like clothing and fashion, they had some fashion industry connections, so that is how he got in that building and it’s just to say that Grace Jones lived in there, I never saw her, but it was like the building has like...the 'door guys'. RM So, it’s a fancy building. DF: Yes, it’s right across from Irving Plaza. RM: Right, ok exactly, sure, and then of course I know it, I’ve been to Irving Plaza a million times. DF: So, I was staying in there (laughing). RM: So, you’re living there, in this posh building...you...fucked up techno punks, basically. DF Yeah. you know this TV series called the Equalizer which was my weird New York kind of go-to memory...the last episode was filmed in that building...there is some useless information (laughing). RM You saw it been filmed or not? DF: No, but it is just a weird connection to me, like all the things that were my New York markers I kind of experienced Like going to see CBGB’s and for me, Liquid Sky was such a big movie and then to hang out at the Liquid Sky store (A NY rave subculture shop) when that was coming up. I can’t remember if I met her, but Chloë Sevigny did work there, right when she started dating Harmony Korine. And Patrick was letting Rachael/Hecate stay, it’s like he would just let everybody crash at his place, so it’s funny it’s in this exclusive building, Zeckendorf towers, but we would just like party like crazy at the place. RM: And the neighbors, you guys are like partying hard there, or you keeping it respectable, were the neighbors banging on the door...be like hey, what the fuck is going on in there, or? DF: I guess it was well isolated because, we were partying all the time and I would never see people. Yeah, that is a good point, I don’t think I ever really saw anyone next door. RM: Ok, so. It is a bit mysterious then. DF: Yeah. That was sort of my base there, because Patrick would just let me stay there, because he had to go back to Germany for some family stuff there for some semesters so, whenever he wasn’t there, I would just stay there. RM: let’s paint the picture a bit more. It’s 95, you’re in New York city. There is at this point still tons of night clubs, but of course the disco era is long over, a lot of people have died from AIDS. DF: Limelight was sort of the big thing at the time. RM: Right, techno and house music were the music of the time, it’s in full swing. DF: The club kid thing was there as well, I mean, it was just such darkness, they made the movie about it, did you go to limelight? RM: No, I mean I’ve been there a handful of times, but not… DF: I remember it, you could feel such a dark atmosphere there. RM: Right, drugs are just running rampid. DF: Yes. oh yeah...I mean, some people say Berghain took their cue from the Limelight...it was definitely a similar situation and experience. RM: You guys are now going to all these clubs… DF: Yeah mostly to Robots. RM: Save the Robots, which is like.. DF: I can’t remember specifically, I think I went to Save the Robots and it became Robots, so, it’s like it’s changed, there was sort of a wilderness era there...when it closed, they knew they were being scoped out. It was tense in those clubs, you never knew who was undercover. RM: Right, so now to paint the picture...Around 88 there were the riots in Alphabet city...they were trying to get the homeless people and squatters out of there and obviously that went really wrong and that kind set the stage for Giuliani to come in around that time...1995 there was another kind of big riot down there...were you around for this as well? DF: It always seemed it was on the verge of a riot, I mean it was the first time that I’ve ever seen severe police shit. Like cops telling you to take your fucking ass off against the wall, I had never seen it before. RM: They’re trying clean up the neighborhood after that, it is the aftermath of the eighties and the aftermath of crack. The city is grimy, people are running around, you could kind of still do what you want but they got this new mayor, and they’re saying, we’re changing the shit, this stuff isn’t going to happen. You got cops all around, but still there is this freedom and lawlessness that exists. DF: Yeah, for me I remember seeing the old Times Square as well, yeah right before Disney got it. That’s maybe around 95...97, but I think it’s right when Disney really cleaned up all of the Times Square. I remember seeing some of the 42 Second Street in all its classic grindhouse sleaze glory... RM: Around then, thats when Zhark records starts? DF: Yeah, we were basically like, we just got to try and do this. Patrick also wrote for a German techno magazine called Frontpage, which I think later became De:Bug. So, He knew everybody at the distributors and all the booking people at Tresor at the time... he was ready to make it happen. We just needed to do some tracks and he liked the Teste stuff, but I just wasn’t really in the head space to do anything, so the first releases were him and of Rachael. RM: Did you all have a studio inside the apartment or was it somewhere else? DF: Yeah. RM: So it was in the apartment, so that was the headquarters? DF: Yeah, I mean I think they were mixed on home stereo speakers, I mean, a lot of the stuff, like Teste the 5am mix we did on home HiFi speakers (laughing). We did not know any better (laughing). RM: You see, this is the kind of stuff the kids need to be hearing, you know, you can still get a track sounding like Teste The Wipe on some Sanyo old home hifi speakers. DF: Yeah exactly. And we did. I mean obviously as time goes one, people formalize, structuralize everything, right. Nowadays if I sent a track to a mastering engineer, it’s like “oh it’s not -6 db” and I am like, come on, does it really need to be!?!...do you want it to sound exactly like everybody else’s shit?!! Do you believe that? I don’t know.... When they did our Zhark mastering at D&M, I remember Pole, you know the producer Pole, Stefan Betke, he used to refuse to do it, that was when Rashad started working there, and Pole's like you do the Zhark shit, I don’t want to do it (laughing). RM: So Zhark was shunned by the techno professionals, shall we say? DF: It was and it wasn’t, I mean I think that they got it...but I don’t think they understood why we were trying to bring that into their scene. RM Right. They did not see it as techno, they saw it as punk music or experimental electronics. When you guys were doing the Zhark stuff, was there any specific goal or influence when you said, ok, like I just did this Teste thing, I need to step away from what that sounded like, I want to just tear that sound apart and bring something new to it? DF: I think it’s age related, also I am obviously obsessed with Motorhead and I was looking at it from the Lemmy perspective. It's kind of like...the Huren stuff was sort of my Motorhead attempt, you know, he formed that in revenge for being kicked out of Hawkwind, right. RM: Right. DF: So, Motorhead is driven on Revenge. RM: OK. DF: So, it’s just like I was really pissed off, go full on. And then my thing was, and I still do it, is just not listening to techno music to make techno, right? So, it’s that simple, like you do it, it’s the one thing that I always found limiting about the DJ scene of that era as well, it’s just like people did not listen to that much other music besides techno. RM: Right, I think that kind of stands true today as well, when you step outside of a certain circle of people, I think, it’s really much single minded there. DF:I get it as well, like you’re immersed in the whole thing, but maybe you can settle a little bit of time aside, check something else out. RM: To me it was always interesting when you’ll hear the original Detroit and Chicago guys mixing on the radio. The reason that all that music was so interesting and people always fail to realize this, is that they were listening to all this crazy stuff... DF: Ron Hardy, everybody uses that example, he would play the b52’s and Fat Gadget and stuff and he would do his tape edits. RM: They had this deep root in playing black music whether it was Salsoul orchestra, or a James Brown record, or something on West End. But then they would take also this crazy other stuff, like Electrifyin' mojo did, they would take this other side of really spaced out music, that’s why the original DJs all worshipped Kraftwerk, that’s why you would hear all the Chicago and Detroit DJ's play Liaison Dangereuses. I think maybe people really forget about how special that amalgamation of all that being combined together was. To create the genre which is techno and house music, especially the Chicago guys listening to Italo disco, because you were getting Italo imports, coming in from Canada or wherever. So to me, that was always the real interest and I think as years went by with electronic music it got more streamlined and it failed, a lot of people failed to pull from these outside sources that made the original so interesting. DF: Yeah exactly. Now, there is this idea about the selector, like selector culture, right, so, do you think that kind of relates to it a bit, like, I’m gonna go see Harvey play all these weird records? RM: Yeah, I mean, I just, I don’t even think, I don’t even know if the context for now is even applicable because it’s so many goddamn DJs. DF: There’s too much information, people are kind of too sophisticated now, right. RM: It’s the impetus in reasoning for doing it. It's not the original reason for doing it. DF: Right, creating emotion or experience. RM: Yeah, it’s just becoming a hyper nerve fucking thing, to outdo the next motherfucker, a lot of it. It’s not about just playing really sick music to blow someone’s mind...and that’s always the thing that gets lost. The point of this is just to blow people’s minds and planting some crazy ass shit. I think now to me it has become absolutely completely uninteresting and it’s like jock shit basically, you know? I seriously would rather watch pro sports then some of these DJs’ play, I mean, at least I enjoy pro sports...going over a tangent here... So now basically Zhark is starting and Teste is over and you’re like… DF: I’m pissed off and fuck everything RM: This is my punk project now, basically. DF: Yeah really, just a full on experience...nihilistic everything ...making ugly music! It was really formative to me to listen to Motorhead as a kid, Overkill, for me is a benchmark...just a track with double bass beating your fucking head in. It’s kind of the beginning of thrash too, it has a thrash approach. And then obviously you put Napalm Death in there, just that kind of feeling. I took that into scumtronics through scum records, there is just a feeling that record evokes that you just want to kind of put to a dance audience, or have a club audience accept this stuff, I guess now they can, but...(laughing). RM: , when you were doing live shows what kind of places were you playing and who would come to these gigs and what were the reactions like at this time? DF: Now it’s, well let’s face it, it’s kind of just people are there for other reasons, I mean they are on their phone. RM: No, I meant, back then. DF Oh back then, oh. RM Back then, you’re doing this in New York city, you guys are doing live shows? DF: We had really good support with Con, Con is just a cool guy, like, you know he had his Temple shop and he did a night at Robots called Killer. He was like yeah just do it...he paid well and he was really cool about it all. And he’s like, we’ll just put you on early so not too many people leave (laughing). But people liked it. It was rough at that club in a way too, I mean that’s why they had a lot of security, I remember there were a lot of fights in there. ============== ================= | _ _ _ _ |____ | _ _ _ _ _ | ||_||_||_||_|| |____ || || || || || ||_____ ___ |-\ _ _ _ | |_____| _ _ _ _ _ | |_____ |__| \|_||_||_|| || || || || || || | _ \ _ _ | ___ | _ _ _ _ _ |____ ___ _||_| \ |_||_||___---- |+ || || || || || || -_ | \ __-- | ____ _ _ ||-- - - ---- | ____ _ _ _ || | | || -- --| | | | || ||---------______| ||. | |. |. ||--/--\\.-----_ -------|___| |_______________|_______________|________________ RM: It was in avenue B, third street, something like that, that’s kind of the heart of Alphabet City. You are getting a complete mixed bag of people, you’re getting punks, you’re getting drug freaks, you’re getting techno people, you’re getting neighborhood people, all kinds mixed in there ? DF: The security in there was pretty intense so it was mostly techno people, it would be techno and some punks and some art people. I remember even Moby going, I think Joey Ramone went too. I can’t remember his name, who is that Scottish comedian, I think he was a security there. Craig Kilborn is that right? I mostly went to that club, And then I went to one of Adam X's raves, the subsonic groove thing too. RM Where was that? DF: That was Brooklyn. So, I did not go to Brooklyn much that’s the thing. It was really mostly Manhattan based, the only stuff I went into in Brooklyn was this stuff Soundlab, which was... you know this label Asphodel? RM: Yeah. DF: It was Asphodel, it may have been Bill Laswell, that’s the thing Bill was always kind of floating around that scene. RM: Right, because he had his studios in Green point. DF: Yeah, there was DJ Spooky. And then those guys took themselves very seriously, it wasn’t good. I think, we’re like...I don’t really think it’s worth going out there for, but then again, why not. RM: I think, when you think of music that didn’t stand the test of time very well... DF: Triphop... RM: Illbient...The perfect example of music that should never be dug up, maybe only to be annihilated. DF: Exactly, so there were some things that did not really work and then even Liquid Sky, like the store, you know, Temple was cool, but like, did you ever hear the label, it was not really good. RM: No. DF: Yeah, It kind of really was watered down drum and bass, triphop, and a lot of hippie themes. RM: This drum and bass thing I never understood... DF: It’s a UK thing really. RM: It did not translate too well into New York city, I mean, I knew it was there, but I had little interest in it and again it seemed corny to me. DF: I know and thinking back too, I remember all these weird people that I would meet too, they were like Warhol leftovers, like this guy used to hang out with Paul Morissey and, they would just go on about the Factory days and then you’ll hear other people that were left over stragglers from the no wave era and stuff. RM: I guess, you still had a very colorful bunch of people running around. DF: Yes, they were coming to the techno parties too. It was new for them and there would be drugs. They weren’t old enough to give up just yet. I remember I saw Moby at a few things, he’s a nice guy, I talked to him once, I don’t like his music (laughing). Or maybe he isn’t a nice guy, I don’t know, but I mean he was fine when I talked to him... RM: Going back to Zhark, were you guys at this point informed about the The Hague scene because I feel like something like Zhark runs parallel to what they were doing in the Hague at that time, which was this kind of reactionary living in their own bubble kind of world. DF: Unit Moebius I knew, it’s funny I remember I had that on CD...I never got it on vinyl (laughing). I wouldn’t claim that they were, like direct influences, but we knew there was stuff happening, something similar. RM: When you guys are doing the Zhark stuff and making all your music, is there any kind of self-awareness there you are actually doing something that is absolutely going against everything what’s around you. Is it even like conscientious or you guys are just like... DF: Yeah, because we just didn’t like a lot of the esthetic of rave or techno. RM: So it was reactionary? DF: We just thought rave and techno were kind of cartoony, we just didn't like the cartoony imagery and a lot of the mysticism around it. We just wanted it to relate more to the Motorhead or the Napalm Death angle. I wanted to make different music literally, it was just as simple as that. In punk music, they said that the whole idea was to be individual. RM: Sure. DF: If you’re making punk, why would you want to sound like the Ramones, there’s no point, they’ve already done it, so the whole idea was to like take the spirit but just put your own personality in. RM: Making it all make sense, to you at least. DF: Yeah, because, isn’t your goal as an artist to come up with your own expressions? RM: Right, I think it’s important and it’s also...people fail to realize it’s like when you listen to a Huren record or Kareem record or Hecate record on Zhark...you can identify them. You did take it and made it your own sound , The same thing with the Bunker records from a certain era, you can tell, that’s like Legowelt from 1999 or Unit moebius from 96 or something like this. You can hear it in the sound. I think that's what a lot of people are missing from what they do. You have to put your own stamp on it, that’s why, I was just wondering that. DF: Those guys were hardcore too because they were like full on squatters right. RM: Guy was yeah, and probably a couple others, not all of them. I also think as it is in The Netherlands...the term squatter is used in a pretty loose sense, because you can actually, or at least could...for a long time squat in a really nice building. DF: yeah, they treat the artists so well, I love to play in Netherlands, it’s so great. RM: But you know Unit Moebius was heavily involved with Spiral Tribe, doing gigs with them and even records with them together. So there was that kind, I guess, travelling techno vagabond, crust hippie shit, but like speed hippies, they were tied into it...I don’t know the specifics. DF: I consider myself a techno vagrant, now I’m in Berlin for ever reason, I mean, I’m like, I’m not really established here right, so (laughing).) RM: It's fair to say that you are a techno vagrant. DF: Yeah, because in New York I was just kind of there, unprepared... I think that’s been my approach just show up (laughing) and see what happens. RM: So now, the label Zhark is pumping out music... DF: By the time Zhark really started getting more organized with the releases, I left New York. The end of 97... I remember that feeling of leaving, it was so sad, I really felt, like oh it had changed. I had exiled back to Hamilton. RM: Ok. DF: Because, I don’t know, I mean I think I’m like a lot of people when they go to New York, they think, we are going to go there and we’ll get signed, because people still thought like that in those days. We thought 'oh maybe some major label will pick it up' ...because, Hecate, Rachael was really driven that way. RM: Right and it was really extreme music, so it is a little surprising though as well. DF: I think we were loosely thinking, in her influence, maybe we will catch it. In those days there was so much of a change....like music really was changing...people were looking for something new all the time, we thought there would be good chances we would be the next thing... After a few years there I realized it’s not really happening. From there I went back to Hamilton and then I ended up in Europe. I ended up in Denmark, because, the other guy in Teste, Tom, he had left Canada at that time, and I just sort of, I think you can see I am sort of a nomad, basically like him and his wife had a flat in Copenhagen and she’s Estonian, so, they left to Estonia for some family stuff, so, I stayed there for a year or so. RM Here you go. Then you are techno vagrant DF Yeah, techno vagrant because I was just like flopping around to see where the hell else this thing will get me. I had such unrealistic expectations I don’t know what the hell I even thought, I just felt like, I just go to Copenhagen make this shit work somehow. RM: And at the time, you are still recording now for Zhark, right. DF: That’s when my Zhark releases actually came out, because when I was in New York, none of this stuff I did on Zhark came out at that time, so the New York Zharks were mostly Patrick and Rachael. RM: Ok, but you’re recording and it’s just didn’t come out at that time? DF: Yes. So, some of the stuff that I did live at Robots was on one of the Zhark CD's. One of my first record releases was what I first played at Tresor in Berlin and that was such a crazy experience too. Again, I mean now at looking at all, you are like oh is this guy like travelling and doing all that shit for this techno shit that I hear every week in Berlin or whatever. It wasn’t really like that on those days, as you know...if you wanted a real severe extreme experience, it wasn’t going to happen much, so, I just had this really odd focus of wanting to keep going further and further into that fucked up thing. So, I just kept going...like, well it’s not working in North America, let me try it in Europe, right. RM Ok. And this is we’re talking about 2000s? DF: 98. RM: oh, 98, so you really went, you didn’t go back to Canada for all that long? DF: No. RM: You like dropped some shit of and then I’m like out of here. DF: Yeah, so. That was my first European kind of stuff, and then those releases were coming out and then there was some kind of interest, but it’s hard to say right... I mean we were getting shows, but it was all a kind of a side show thing. I mean the show at Tresor was just literally by Patrick knowing the booker. They didn’t really want to do it though.. RM: You forced yourself in there. DF: It was a Thursday night or something I don’t know, a Wednesday maybe. It wasn’t the main weekend times. I just remember that I played the Love Parade. RM: Jesus. DF But it wasn’t like on one of the floats, it was in this exclusive wine bar in Mitte. RM: Ok. they would let you do that in an exclusive wine bar? DF: Patrick knew his way around, he knew people, he always had something kind of going right (laughing). So, it’s strange, yeah, I mean it's all blurred, because I was still pretty young and partying all the time. I was just...yeah makes sense, just try it, see what the hell is gonna happen. How I did it all in retrospect, I really don’t know, how did I pay, how did I live? I really don’t even remember. I mean, I made money with records and shows, but I didn’t know what I was doing (laughing). RM: Well, you are still standing. DF: It’s been crazy having the covid down time, just to look back at it all. I was so fucking gone, like when I look at it...I wasn’t operating in the real reality. Some other thing I was looking for...some personal businesses maybe, I don’t know. Who knows...it wasn’t really logical at all. I was bought into that myth like the really subversive artist, right , like Jean Genest, like the low life outcast. RM: Yeah, truly living on the edge. DF: I guess I still am, right, so. RM: In a different form maybe. So now, fast forward to now you’ve been living in Berlin for quite a time. DF: Yes, I outlasted Bowie that was my joke. And Iggy, they were only here four years. But, I mean like if I look at it to New York I was only there for 3 give or so, I mean it’s all timing right, you know, it’s like probably what brought you to Paris right, it’s timing, right. RM: I don’t belong here whatsoever. DF: Right. RM; Just ended it up here, but if would you asked me 10 years ago where would you think you were gonna to be… DF: Yeah, well that’s the interesting thing about it, then it’s interesting that techno is a part of that. People can piss on techno all they want, but it is really transcending, it’s one of the few ways to step outside of a regiment of existence, still I think, I think, I hope. God I hope. RM transcription of interview: SLP