(C) Common Dreams This story was originally published by Common Dreams and is unaltered. . . . . . . . . . . Transcripts [1] [] Date: 2025-11-24 Return to Transcripts main page CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt DOJ To Appeal Dismissal Of James Comey & Letitia James Cases; Pentagon Threatens Dem Sen. Mark Kelly With Investigation; Democratic Senator Mark Kelly: Won't Be Intimated By Trump's Pentagon. Aired 4-5p ET Aired November 24, 2025 - 16:00 ET THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. [16:00:01] PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: And also, it leaves you the max amount of wiggle room if there's traffic into the airport. And that's going to be a big thing, too, is the traffic to the airport. BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Packing patience and sleeping bag as he heads to DCA. MUNTEAN: That's right. JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: Godspeed. MUNTEAN: My tent. SANCHEZ: Yeah. Pete Muntean, thanks so much for being with us. Thank you so much for joining us. Jessica, I appreciate you. DEAN: Thanks for having me. SANCHEZ: "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now. ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news. KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday. Right now, the retribution tour lives on. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Department of Justice will be appealing very soon. And it is our position that Lindsey Halligan is extremely qualified for this position. But more importantly, was legally appointed to it (END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt just a few minutes ago here in Washington, confirming the Justice Department will try and revive the criminal cases against James Comey and Letitia James. A federal judge today dismissing both of those indictments, saying that the president and DOJ engaged in, quote, "unlawful exercises of executive power," end quote, ruling that the appointment of Lindsey Halligan as U.S. -- interim U.S. attorney was illegal. The former FBI director expressing gratitude for the ruling while adding he believes the president will go after him again. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIM COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: I know that Donald Trump will probably come after me again, and my attitude is going to be the same -- I'm innocent. I am not afraid, and I believe in an independent federal judiciary -- the gift from our founders that protects us from a would- be tyrant. It's time to stand up and show the fools who would frighten us, who would divide us, that we're made of stronger stuff. (END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: All right. Let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel is here, along with CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz and CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes. Katelyn, first to you. Take us through this decision. How did the judge come to say that these cases should be thrown out? KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, I should note first that these cases, they're now marked closed in these court records. They are terminated because of this judge's ruling today. This is a judge from Judge Cameron McGowan Currie. She was specially brought in to look at this question of whether Lindsey Halligan, the interim U.S. attorney sent by main justice to the Eastern District of Virginia to lead that prosecutors office and to secure those indictments. She was looking at whether Halligan had the authority to do that. And what Judge Currie found after extensive legal arguments in court before her, is that Lindsey Halligan was not validly acting as a prosecutor. She even cites another case you may have heard of U.S. v. Trump in Florida against Donald Trump, which also found the prosecutor was invalid and the indictment had to be thrown out. In this case, the reason here is that the judge says Lindsey Halligan she had come into this office after a time period had passed where the president could send somebody in as an interim U.S. attorney. That period was 120 days. And then after 120 days, the district court got the power to appoint someone into this top prosecutor job. Lindsey Halligan was not appointed by the court. Someone else had been, and she has not been confirmed by the U.S. Senate. So, the judge says now, at this time, it's up to the district judges of this court to appoint the next U.S. attorney until someone gets through a Senate confirmation. HUNT: So, Katelyn, what are you hearing about what happened inside the U.S. attorney's office after this decision came in? POLANTZ: Well, Kasie, I've heard from some sources already this afternoon that in the three hours or so after this decision, until about now, it's been chaos and confusion, so much that some supervising prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia, they told their units they needed to stop making filings in criminal cases. They couldn't be signed by anyone. However, I have been told that main justice, the deputy attorney general's office, has given a direction to the Eastern District of Virginia. They do have someone who can sign those filings. Now that Halligan can't. It's not her. It's the first assistant in that section. But this was a moment where there was no response from Justice Department leadership for some time, although now you see the White House press secretary coming out and saying that they're looking to appeal. I haven't seen that filing yet, though, and I am watching the docket still. HUNT: All right. Well, keep us posted on that. So, Kristen, obviously we heard from Karoline Leavitt here, pushing back, saying that this is not the final word on this. What else are you hearing? KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I talked to a number of White House officials. Of course, this is the disappointment. They don't want to be having to deal with an appeal. They don't want to be having to deal with having to bring these cases again, if that's what they end up doing. But they're pretty steadfast in the belief that right now, they are going to appeal this, and they are going to do whatever it takes to bring these charges against Comey. And James. Here is my interaction with Karoline Leavitt when I asked her about the president's reaction to the news that these indictments have been thrown out. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: What was President Trump's reaction to those indictments against Comey and James being thrown out? LEAVITT: His reaction was, we've seen this before. [16:05:01] We've seen partisan judges take unprecedented steps to try to intervene in accountability before, but we're not going to give up. And I know that the Department of Justice intends to appeal these rulings very soon, if they haven't already. (END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: Now, on top of that, she also said that the president still has faith in Lindsey Halligan, and she said that more importantly, they believe -- they being the White House -- which, of course, we assume trickles down to the Department of Justice. Since these two entities tend to work hand in hand. That Lindsey Halligan was valid in her job and that the judge is ruling is incorrect. So that actually matters here, because it's the difference between appealing this and trying to work that way, or waiting the process out, as Katelyn was just explaining, and then re-bringing these charges. But one thing again, was clear from speaking to these various White House officials, they are intent on making sure that this is either appealed or these charges are brought. HUNT: All right. Kristen Holmes, Katelyn Polantz, thank you very much for starting us off. Our panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN contributor, "The New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia-Navarro; CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg is here. CNN political commentator, former Biden White House comms director, Kate Bedingfield; and former RNC comms director, Republican strategist Doug Heye. Welcome to all of you. Also, we can't forget, senior legal analyst Elie Honig is also here. And, Elie, I actually do -- I want to start with you here just because, I mean, this is a pretty unprecedented situation for, you know, any number of reasons. What do you think is the -- is the real play here for the White House going forward? And considering the statute of limitations situation, especially in the Comey case, is there any word that comes back to life? ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, Kasie, this is undeniably bottom line, an embarrassing setback, and a major setback for the Justice Department. The reason these cases have been thrown out for the moment at least, is the most fundamental reason of all, which is that the prosecutor indicted these cases was not technically acting properly as a prosecutor, but as you know, that does not mean that this issue is over for good. DOJ just informed us that there will be an appeal that's to be expected. And it's also important to note this legal issue is, as you said, unprecedented. In fact, the judge in her rulings says that the law itself that this was decided under is ambiguous. So, there is some room for different interpretations. But for now, the cases are out. This has to hurt for the Justice Department, but also, as you say, Kasie, there's another problem here, which is that the statute of limitations, the five year period that you have to indict a case appears to have run out for Jim Comey because the false testimony that Jim Comey allegedly gave happened on September 30th, 2020. Now, they indicted him just a few days before that, in September 2025. Of course, now we are after that period. So that's going to be a real problem for DOJ in looking to revive these cases. The same concern does not apply to Letitia James because her charge conduct goes up through 2024. So, DOJ is on its heels now. And they've got to figure out a way back. HUNT: Elie, we do know also that President Trump in the past has not shown a fear for attacking judges, that he's unhappy with. What do we know about the judge in this case that he may end up, you know, looking at if again, I'm not saying he has done this, but he is in the past, this has been a tactic that he's used. HONIG: Yeah, pretty clear pattern of behavior. It would not surprise me whatsoever to see Donald Trump express some views on this judge later in the day today. So, this was a judge brought in from a different district, the Comey and James prosecutions are happening in the Eastern District of Virginia. However, they had to bring in this judge, Judge Currie, from a federal district court in South Carolina because the judges themselves in the Eastern District of Virginia do have some role in deciding who gets to be the U.S. attorney. So therefore, they had a conflict of interest. So, it was absolutely the right thing to bring in this judge from the outside. And look, I just read both rulings. There's a lot of overlap. But I will tell you, this is a measured, reserved ruling. This is not this judge getting on a soapbox and making political statements. This judge goes meticulously, painstakingly through the nuances and details of the statute of the law at issue here. So, expect to see the attacks. Expect to see an appeal that's fair game, but I think the judge has done her job here. HUNT: Okay, Jonah Goldberg, I mean, is this an example then, of essentially the system working and holding and saying, okay, like this is not -- I mean, this is clearly part of the president's, you know, retribution tour. He got up on stage during the campaign and he said, I am your retribution. And then he told Pam Bondi he wanted all these people investigated. And then all of a sudden, there's a new U.S. attorney, an interim U.S. attorney, and suddenly, they've charged James Comey when other prosecutors wouldn't. How do you look at what we've learned today? JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I find it pretty reassuring, like the "I am your retribution" thing always bothered me because really what he's talking about is "I am my retribution". Right? This isn't -- he's not doing this -- at a time when everyone wants him to focus on all the polls, say focus on the economy. He's out there freaking out about this stuff, right? [16:10:01] And if you read that inadvertent Truth Social post where he goes after Pam Bondi, which they think was probably not intended to go public, he says, look, we're losing my credibility and reputation, as the quote, about the viability of their threats. That's what this was about. And so, I think there are a lot of more legal deficiencies in the actual substance of the case of perjury against Comey. So, you could see them bringing it back again and failing again and again and again. HUNT: Lulu? LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, I mean, I think that this is a real moment where were finally seeing the legal system push back against the excesses of the Trump administration. And for anyone who cares about the rule of law, it is, as Jonah says reassuring. You know, the problem, of course, at the center of all this is, you know, nobody likes James Comey. Left or right. I mean, I'm not -- (CROSSTALK) GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm not -- I'm sort of like, not -- I'm not breaking any news -- GOLDBERG: Survey says -- GARCIA-NAVARRO: Survey says ding, ding, ding, right? I'm not breaking any news here. And so, you know, he makes a fairly unsympathetic victim in all of this. That said, it has been pretty transparent that this is been political in nature from the get-go. HUNT: Kate can confirm that no one likes James Comey, but -- KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We all have our issues, but he should not be unfairly and politically prosecuted by the president of United States and his government. Even whatever political issues I may or may not have with him. But look, I think this comes at a moment where, politically, Trump is -- has been up against other moments of pushback that we, you know, this is the congressional pushback around the Epstein files that was essentially unprecedented for Congress to stand up in him in in that way. And so, this is sort of stacking up in this moment where it is starting to feel like his sort of either his iron grip over the Republicans in Congress and his rhetorical threats about the courts do seem to be to be meeting reality. And the other thing I'd say quickly is Jonah touched on, I think maybe the most important political point here, which is this is not any voter's top priority. The retribution against Jim Comey and Tish James, not any voter's top priority. And so, the more Trump is consumed by this publicly, the less he's speaking to what people are worried about, which is prices and the economy. HUNT: Yeah. I mean, Doug, if you're a Republican who's got to run for reelection, I mean, we just saw Marjorie Taylor Greene, basically, peace out of dc after she went crosswise with Donald Trump. But there's got to be other people out there who are looking at this and saying, like, hey, can you talk about affordability? Can you talk about these things I actually want to run my campaign on? DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah. What we've seen in the past few days since Marjorie Taylor Greene made her announcement is a lot of talk from House Republicans, privately, of course, that they're unhappy as well. They're thinking about leaving. And we're entering not just the holiday season, but the holiday season for members of Congress. They go home with their families, Thanksgiving, Christmas. And this is when they think about, do I really want to sign up for essentially another three years? So I wouldn't be surprised if we see more retirement announcements because of this. Because Trump isn't focused on this. But let's remember, Donald Trump is about Donald Trump first and foremost. And that means the fight for Trump is really more important than what the result is. So, he'll keep fighting with Tish James, he'll keep fighting on Comey. And by the way, we're going to have a joint piece. Nobody likes James Comey anywhere, anywhere. We want to run that. But for Trump, the fight is central to his core being. And I think I think we lose sight of that sometimes. This is going to be -- GARCIA-NAVARRO: At the center of all of this is that the Department of Justice has been used as his personal vendetta machine, and it is in chaos. I mean, think about how -- I mean, I others know this better than I, but -- I mean, think about how humiliating what has just happened. Basically, they threw in someone who had absolutely no authority, history. She's like an insurance lawyer and they have had their butts handed to them, and that's embarrassing. HUNT: Well, and to that point, I mean, part of it is just also a lack of experience, Elie Honig, at doing this and perhaps some rookie mistakes. I mean, here's part of what the judge wrote today, quote, the implications of a contrary conclusion of this judge coming to a different conclusion are extraordinary. It would mean the government could send any private citizen off the street, attorney or not, into the grand jury room to secure an indictment, so long as the attorney general gives her approval after the fact, that cannot be the law. Now, what is this about? This is about this mistake that Lindsey Halligan made with the grand jury, right? HONIG: So, this is actually not about whether Lindsey Halligan is a good lawyer, bad lawyer, a good prosecutor, bad prosecutor. It's about the process by which she became the interim temporary U.S. attorney for the eastern district of Virginia. And there's an interesting point in that excerpt that you just read, Kasie, which is there was an effort a few weeks after the fact of this indictment. DOJ realized, oh, we have a problem here. [16:15:02] And they tried to issue this statement that Lindsey Halligan was actually acting as a quote, government attorney to sort of try to cover it retroactively. And this judge today in that excerpt that you just read said, no, it doesn't work that way. You don't get to just come in after the fact and say, actually, we meant to do it a little differently. HUNT: Yeah, actually. Actually, no, it's a mulligan. Elie, what's -- what's next for the office here? I mean, we heard Katelyn reporting, obviously, that they weren't sure who could sign these sort of basic things. Now, they seem to have answered that question. What do you think is the next step for putting someone to actually be in charge of the office? HONIG: Disarray for now, in a word, because the problem is they have to look at this. All the regular line prosecutors, like I once was, are now looking at this saying, hang on. The U.S. attorney signature is on every indictment we return since she took office back in September. Now, are all of them in danger now? The answer is maybe not, because there's usually going to be a second signature someone like me. But in these cases, there was just Lindsey Halligan. But I think this office has to figure out who the heck's going to sign our indictments now, at least as long as there's at a minimum uncertainty over this. Now, DOJ has ways of dealing with this. They can find someone else of supervisory authority to come in from another office, from what we call Main Justice, from headquarters in D.C. But yes, there's -- it does not surprise me at all to hear Katelyn Polantz is reporting that there's chaos and uncertainty raining right now in that office. HUNT: Well, and, Elie, just to go back to and obviously, I'm not a lawyer or prosecutor, but this idea of indictments that need to be signed, aren't we in this situation because people in the office previously wouldn't put their names on a Jim Comey indictment? HONIG: Exactly. Let's remember that central fact. The reason this all happened is they had a properly appointed temporary U.S. attorney in that district, Erik Siebert. In fact, he was put in place by Pam Bondi, Donald Trump through Pam Bondi, puts him in place. He serves 120 days. And then the federal judges of that district said, yes, fine, we will honor that. He will be the acting U.S. attorney, but then he was pushed out largely because he refused to bring the Comey and Letitia James indictments. That leads us to where we are today. HUNT: All right. Head spinning journey. Elie Honig, thank you so much for being here. Always love having you. The rest of our panel is going to stand by. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, we're going to talk live with someone who has been called out as a target of this administration. Former homeland security official Miles Taylor will be here. Plus, Arizona Senator Ruben Gallego will be here live as the Pentagon launches an investigation into Senator Mark Kelly for his role in a video that the president has suggested is an act of treason. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): Mark Kelly is a patriot. There's no reason why they're going after him. He was doing his duty and just reminding people about their rights as service members. And, you know, Secretary Hegseth, all these guys, fuck you guys. You're not going to be able to scare us. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:22:26] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LEAVITT: I know the Department of Justice will be appealing this in very short order, so maybe James Comey should pump the brakes on his victory lap. (END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: Pump the brakes. That was the White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt's message to James Comey after he and New York Attorney General Letitia James' indictments were dismissed today. In a reel post on his Instagram, Comey shared this message about the case. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COMEY: This case mattered to me personally, obviously, but it matters most because a message has to be sent that the president of the United States cannot use the Department of Justice to target his political enemies. I don't care what your politics are. You have to see that as fundamentally un-American and a threat to the rule of law that keeps all of us free. (END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: Joining us now here in THE ARENA, Miles Taylor. He served as chief of staff for Department of Homeland Security in the Trump administration, authoring that anonymous "New York Times" op-ed criticizing the president. And, of course, in April, President Trump ordered miles an investigation into you. Thank you so much for being with us. And I think my first question to you is whether you're relieved about what happened today in that the system seemed to work in a certain way. How did you feel in reaction to it? MILES TAYLOR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, Kasie, I would like to say that I'm celebrating here, but the honest answer is that I'm not. I mean, not only is the administration saying that they are going to appeal this, but even if they don't, this whole episode was a body blow for the rule of law. I mean, just the fact that the president of the United States was able to initiate federal investigations into his critics by social media posts shows you how easy this is to do. And of course, the process is the punishment. They don't even care part of the time if they lose these cases in court because they know people will lose their jobs and their livelihoods and their personal security just from going through the investigation. So, what I would compare it to, Kasie, is it's like the raptors, the velociraptors in Jurassic Park. Yeah. At the beginning of the film, they were running into doors, but they eventually learned how to open the doors. And that's how I think of these bungled prosecutions. By next year, Trump's DOJ is going to learn how to open the doors, and they'll be a much deadlier opponent in the courts once they do. HUNT: Well, and so, can you talk a little bit about where things stand with you? Obviously, you and your colleague Chris Krebs were both on the receiving end of this call for an investigation. And obviously, in the case of Comey and James, we saw the president call for it, and it was followed by immediate action. [16:25:04] Where do things stand with you? TAYLOR: Well, we don't know. I mean, that's the uncertainty. I mean, we know that we're under investigation, and this is the type of thing that can show up on your forefront any day. Now, what I can say to you with certainty, Kasie, is I am not guilty of the thing that the president of the United States told the world I was guilty of treason, which is a crime punishable by death, a crime delineated in the U.S. Constitution. If I was guilty of treason, it would be very surprising that six months later, I am free and haven't been detained by my government. But again, we're sort of pinatas. An example of how easy it is for the president to do this. Now, what I do predict will happen, Kasie, regardless of what happens in my case or Chris Krebs case, or if they try to bring charges again against James Comey or Letitia James. What I can predict is there will be investigations into these investigations in the future, because a number of these charges that have been brought against people, a number of the allegations are unconstitutional at their core. Even the idea that the president of the United States can order selective and vindictive prosecutions by tweet or with the stroke of a pen is something I think eventually the courts will find to be unconstitutional. And somewhere between now and then, like I said, there will be investigations into how and why these charges were brought and who knew what, when. And there's multiple parts of the Department of Justice and congressional oversight committees that I think will be very interested to know why the justice system was abused for these purposes. HUNT: Miles, I mean, watching this all unfold -- I mean, what would you say? How do you think Americans should be thinking about the justice system in a broad way? Because there is this massive question of trust, right? And certainly, there was a lot of distrust on the right for a long time about the Department of Justice. And now, of course, we're seeing the president and his attorney general operate in a certain way. It's clearly sowing distrust on the left, politically speaking. How do you how do you think about this question, and how do you think Americans should think about it? TAYLOR: Well, look, I think right now, the issue for Americans is they have almost entirely lost trust in that justice system. And so, for the time being, there are going to be injustices that people need to stand up to. So, my first recommendation is collective action. It's really, really important that when these fake charges are brought against people, when the system is weaponized, like we just saw today against Senator Kelly, that people stand up collectively and oppose it, to show that the intimidation will not work. I mean, we launched something called defiance.org to try to create a place for people to come together to do exactly that. And, Kasie, in the wake of Donald Trump's threats last week, that he would go punish these six Democratic lawmakers for urging people to abide by the law and not break the law for the president, we announced that we're going to give grants to whistleblowers who come forward to tell the truth. We can't be afraid, and we can't be afraid to protect them. So that's the first thing, is that Americans need to make sure that they have the backs of people who want to come forward and tell the truth, especially about lawbreaking. But the second thing, Kasie, in the longer term, is going to be we need leaders that demonstrate restraint. We need leaders that will go to the justice system and say, let's lower the temperature. Let's not weaponize these tools to go after our enemies. But I think that's the type of thing that's a long way out. HUNT: Before I let you go, I'm glad you mentioned Senator Mark Kelly. We're going to -- we're going to talk about what's going on with that as the show continues. But what -- what do you think is the same or different about what's going on here? I mean, this is suddenly a Pentagon investigation, obviously distinct from the Department of Justice. TAYLOR: Yeah. I don't think it's -- I don't think it's any different. They're just using whatever tools they can find available. But look, at the end of the day, these guys are treating this like a video game. I mean, these are real people's lives that are under threat from these accusations of treason and sedition, but they're acting like it's a video game and they're just, you know, finding whatever way they can to make life difficult. I mean, we should not see it as a coincidence that just days after Mark Kelly goes out and tells service members to abide by the law and to refuse illegal orders, that suddenly an investigation is opened into him. I mean, this is rampant corruption of the highest order of our justice system. And again, like I said before, you know, it may sound like inception, but there are going to be investigations into these investigations because there has to be our justice system cannot be used as a cudgel against the president's enemies. HUNT: All right. Miles Taylor, thanks very much for joining us with your perspective today. I appreciate your time, sir. See you soon. TAYLOR: Thanks, Kasie. HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, Arizona Senator Ruben Gallego will be here live to react to the news of that Pentagon investigation into his fellow Arizonan, fellow, military veteran, fellow Senator Mark Kelly after the president suggested he engaged in, quote, "seditious behavior," unquote. [16:30:10] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): I didn't think he would step over the over that line calling for the execution of members of Congress. And his words carry tremendous weight, more so than anybody else in the country. And he should be aware of that. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KELLY: Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): You can refuse illegal orders. REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA): You must refuse illegal orders. SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law. REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Or our constitution. REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): We know this is hard. [16:35:00] KELLY: And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant. SLOTKIN: But whether you're serving in the CIA. CROW: The army. DELUZIO: Our Navy. HOULAHAN: Air force. KELLY: Your vigilance is critical. (END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: The Pentagon is now investigating one of the six lawmakers you saw featured in that video, urging U.S. troops to refuse to carry out illegal orders. The investigation now being opened into Democratic senator and retired Navy Captain Mark Kelly for his role in what's being described by the administration as, quote, "serious" allegations of misconduct could it even result in the senator being recalled to active duty in order to court martial him. This, of course, comes after President Trump has spent the better part of a week repeatedly pushing for Kelly and the five other congressional Democrats in that video to face consequences. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think Pete Hegseth is looking into it, too. I know they're looking into it militarily. I don't know for a fact, but I think the military is looking into it, the military courts. (END AUDIO CLIP) HUNT: So that was Friday. Last night on social media, the president posted and reposted a number of memes calling for the six lawmakers to be prosecuted, even including an A.I. video showing them behind bars. In response to the Pentagon investigation, here's what Senator Mark Kelly said today. Quote, "If this is meant to intimidate me and other members of Congress from doing our jobs and holding this administration accountable, it won't work." Joining us now, Democratic Senator from Arizona, Ruben Gallego. Senator, thanks very much for being here. You and Senator Kelly, of course, both served from the state of Arizona. What is your reaction to what has happened here? Have you spoken to Senator Kelly about it GALLEGO: Of course, I spoke to Senator Kelly as soon as I heard it, I got on the phone and called him, of course, to remind him that I am 100 percent here in support of him and that we're proud of him. And like him, and I will not be intimidated by this president or any of his lackeys. HUNT: What is your sense of what the administration is trying to accomplish here? What can they do with this investigation? GALLEGO: Sure. Well, two things what they're trying to accomplish. Number one, they're trying to intimidate members of the House of Representatives and Senate that were saying something that's very common and very well understood among people in the military, something that we hear in boot camp and in reminders when were on active duty, that you don't have to follow illegal orders. It's something that is very much ingrained in our professional military. And the other thing he's trying to do is trying to distract the fact that he's weak, that he is having a tough time trying to get his health care plan together. The economy is weak. The Epstein files are about to come out. Everything he's trying to do is trying to distract from everything that's going wrong in his life. And he basically only knows what to do. A couple of things whenever he hits the situation to distract and to intimidate. And now he's trying to do both when it comes to Senator Kelly. HUNT: What is your understanding of why this group of Democrats put this out now, at this point in time? What -- that is hap -- may be happening in the world, what potential orders the president or those in the military following the president may have given that was so concerning that it needed to be done right now? GALLEGO: Well, look, I think a lot of them and I certainly have heard from members of the military that are concerned about what's happening. And also, you're just seeing things that aren't very normal. You have the Marines who are walking around Los Angeles. You have national guardsmen coming from different states into other states, even though those governors did not request that. You have a politicization of the military, that has never been seen before until this president has done it. And then you also hear the president saying things that are on its face, illegal. And let's not forget the fact that they're droning and killing people in the middle of the Venezuelan -- outside the coast of Venezuela without declaring war and/or giving us enough information for us to make a determination if they're even justified attacks. So, what they're trying to say, and what many of us are trying to say, is remind people that, you know, you serve the Constitution of the United States. And if you feel that there is an illegal order, it is not your right to have to -- you do not feel like you have to follow those illegal orders. Follow what you know to your oath to the Constitution to the United States first. HUNT: Did you consider? Why -- why were you not part of this video? GALLEGO: Yeah, actually. So, I was part of the first video. The second video is by the time the script got to me, and it was in the middle of what was going on, I just didn't have time to actually record it. But I'm 100 percent in alignment with them all together. This stuff happens. You know, you just happen not to end up being a recording. There's really no other, you know, 3D chest to this. HUNT: The logistics of human life. GALLEGO: Yeah. HUNT: All right, fair enough. So, what message would you send to other veterans now about this particular moment in time? What they should be -- shouldn't be doing in this moment? GALLEGO: Well, I think you're talking about current military personnel, not veterans, but for current military personnel, just continue doing your job. Let the politicians fight this out. [16:40:03] You know what you need to be doing. You need you know what is right, what is wrong. And should you -- should the moment meet where you find yourself being given an illegal order. Then follow your gut, follow your instinct, and do what you're supposed to do to uphold the Constitution of the United States. For us, we're not going to be intimidated. This is just an act by a very desperate, cowardly man who's trying to distract from everything that's going wrong in his life, and he's trying to attack a patriot that has served his country honorably and still does. HUNT: To circle back to what may unfold from this investigation into Senator Kelly, what is your level of trust in the U.S. military justice system if it were to get that far to handle this? GALLEGO: I trust -- I trust them actually a lot and for a couple reasons. Number one, these are professionals. They are also swearing to the Constitution of the United States. They know that there will be fallout and consequences if they are used in a -- in a, you know, a hard you know, way to, to basically railroad someone like Senator Kelly because Donald Trump is going to be gone a couple of years. And if you're part of the military that is going after sitting senators, sitting members of Congress, and part of, you know, the weaponization of government, there will be consequences, without a doubt. So, you know, I think there's going to be a lot of officers that will be part of this, you know, potential tribunal. If they want to call it that, they're going to be looking over their shoulders because they know that Donald Trump will be gone and they will not have that protection. They're going to have to do the safest thing possible, which is follow the Constitution of the United States, and you'll be fine. HUNT: And lastly, before I let you go, what would you say directly to Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense? Of course, renamed the secretary of war about this issue? GALLEGO: Well, I think, number one, you will never, ever, ever even be half the man that Senator Kelly is. You, sir, are a coward. And the fact that you are following this order from the president shows how big of a coward you are. And I can't wait until you no longer are the secretary of defense. HUNT: All right. Senator Ruben Gallego, thanks very much for your time today, sir. I appreciate it. See you soon. GALLEGO: Thank you. HUNT: All right. Coming up next, here in THE ARENA, our panel weighs in on the Pentagon investigation into Senator Kelly, and what happens next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:46:56] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KELLY: He declared that loyalty to the Constitution is now punishable by death. Those are serious words coming from the president of the United States. He's trying to intimidate us. But, Margaret, I'm not going to be intimidated. (END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: I'm not going to be intimidated. That was Senator Mark Kelly just yesterday before the Pentagon announced an investigation into him that could potentially see him court martialed. And it remains his message after this afternoon, he posted, quote, "I've given too much to this country to be silenced by bullies who care more about their own power than protecting the Constitution". Our panel is back. And Jonah Goldberg, resident biggest fan of the Constitution as -- as our viewers know this is in some ways, I mean, a remarkable level to take this to, write launching a Pentagon investigation. Kelly is the only one of the six of these lawmakers who is still subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, because he is, of course, a retired navy officer. The others did not serve for that period of time, are not considered to be retired. How -- like what are they doing? What is the Trump administration doing? GOLDBERG: Well, one, they're changing the subject from other things that they didn't want to talk about, like the Epstein stuff, but two -- look, I don't -- I didn't like the video. Of course, like soldiers shouldn't violate, you know, shouldn't violate illegal -- or obey illegal orders or anything like that. I just don't think that was the audience. This very much feels to me like those ads Kristi Noem takes out, like on special report on fox talking straight to the camera at illegal immigrants, as if these illegal immigrants are all just settling in to watch Bret Baier talk about the news, right? It is -- it was a way to signal to their fan base in a way. Now, the reaction to it is so much more grotesque than anything that they said. I will stipulate that. But this is -- this is distorting. It's dangerous. I kind of suspect that one of the reasons why Trump world is going crazy about this is because they've internalized the idea that the president, if Donald Trump does it, it cannot be illegal. And so therefore saying don't obey illegal orders is an oxymoron because all his orders will automatically be legal. And that's a real cult of personality, demagogic, authoritarian mindset. And it creeps me out. HUNT: You go ahead, Kate. BEDINGFIELD: No. Well, I just, you know, I mean, I think it's important to remember, too, that Donald Trump's abuse, inappropriate use of the military is unpopular. I mean, if people are asked whether they think that his use of the National Guard was appropriate, even those who say that they like what he's done to close down the border will still say that it's an inappropriate use of the military. So, in many ways, it strikes me that Trump has kind of given them exactly the response that they were looking for. His response is outrageous. It's over the top. It's continuing to drive this sense that he is, in fact, using the military inappropriately. And it is preventing him from talking about the economy, which is what he needs to be doing. And so, in that way, I think he's -- he's taking their bait. HUNT: What do you think, Doug? HEYE: Yeah. And those ads are running all over the place, even on the 24-hour Baywatch Channel, which I won't tell you all why I know specifically what ads run -- (CROSSTALK) [16:50:05] BEDINGFIELD: Doug -- HUNT: Douglas. HEYE: But the reality, it's a great show, internationally famous. GOLDBERG: You've buried the lead. GARCIA-NAVARRO: TMI. HEYE: There's a 24-hour Baywatch Channel. It's amazing. Samsung, yes. But we're seeing these everywhere because they communicate to their own base, very specifically wherever they can find them. And this is part of how Trump does that. The reality is, though, that this also is really good news politically if you might be a Democrat, maybe an Arizona senator who's thinking about running for president. If he hasn't put out emails, fundraising already, Mark Kelly certainly will by the end of the evening, and he'll raise a lot of money on this. And this boosts him. This makes him Trump's enemy number one, which, if you're a Democrat, politically great place to be. HUNT: Well, and that's kind of the message you're hearing from the Kelly camp at this point. It's bring it on and it's one that -- I mean, Democrats want people to be fighting. Donald Trump, above all else. GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, Kasie, there's been a theme today, hasn't there? I mean, literally, we've been talking about a bunch of different people who have been targeted by this president in different capacities. HUNT: Retribution. GARCIA-NAVARRO: Retribution is the theme. And using the sort of levers of power to do that. And that is, I think, what makes people uncomfortable. You know, we do talk about, of course, affordability. And that is what people vote about. And you're right, Kate, you know, if you don't have money in your pocket, democracy doesn't really matter. You can't eat it. The Democrats learned that in the last election. But by the same token, one after another after another person has been targeted by this administration, and it does make people uncomfortable. And I don't think it's going to help, you know, the Republicans politically. It does help the Democrats. GOLDBERG: I think this is very deft, cynical, good trolling. And they're right on the actual merits of the argument. But I also think it was not a necessary thing to do. HUNT: Do you, Jonah, think that -- I mean, we've seen obviously the civilian court system do it's -- you know, it's work. We saw what happened today with other piece that we've been talking about, Comey and James, those cases being thrown out because of the system was basically set up incorrectly, according to this judge. Do you have the same faith from the pentagon side, like as a as a matter of the system, if they actually are going to try to use the system this way? GOLDBERG: I have no faith in Hegseth, but I do have a lot of faith in military courts. I mean, like, these are all career military lawyers, and those guys care about military law and rules and procedures a lot. Everyone I've ever met who's a JAG takes that stuff deadly serious. I would be stunned if this doesn't get laughed out by a judge. HUNT: Yeah, let's listen to the president. And one piece of this story, too, is that he actually seemed to walk back -- Donald Trump does not really walk back much. But he went from what seemed like essentially death threats, right. Saying that these six members should be executed to telling Brian Kilmeade something a little bit different the following day. Let's listen (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) TRUMP: I mean, I don't know about the modern day things because, you know, modern day is a lot softer. But in the old days, if you said a thing like that, that was punishable by death, I'm not threatening them. But I think they're in serious trouble. I would say they're in serious trouble. I'm not threatening death, but I think they're in serious trouble. In the old days, it was death. That was a traitorous statement. That was a horrible thing to do, I think. I believe they broke the law very strongly. I think it's a very -- I think it's a very serious violation of the law. (END AUDIO CLIP) HUNT: I mean, I do think it's worth, Kate, dwelling for a second on the -- what he is talking about in terms of consequences for speech here, right? I mean, he's saying that the statement that you shouldn't obey an unlawful order is traitorous and then it's resulted in, you know, horrible calls like bomb threats, call to congressional offices, right? Real world consequences for the words of this president. BEDINGFIELD: No question. And if you remember, obviously, in the wake of the horrific assassination of Charlie Kirk, there was a lot of effort by Trump and Trump allies to say, well, these, you know, the of violence only comes from the political left. And so, I, you know, obviously would not try to get in Donald Trump's head or ascribe any kind of thinking to him from where I'm sitting. But I -- you know, I could imagine that he may have looked at what he said and realized that, in fact, accusing these Democratic members of sedition and threatening them with death, in fact, was not something that -- that it really undermined the argument that that he'd been making. GARCIA-NAVARRO: You know, the thing that I keep thinking about is, is Donald Trump at this moment, a rational actor, because these are actions that if anyone else took them if you imagine a female president sort of in the middle of the night writing screeds in all caps, saying off with their heads, like, you know, the queen of hearts, people would be extremely concerned about their sort of mental health and their rational capacity. [16:55:06] We have gotten very used to Donald Trump behaving erratically, but this, you know, has become more and more noticeable over time. HEYE: I think the rules of political gravity don't exist for Donald Trump like they do anybody else. The "Access Hollywood" tape should have taught us that years ago. HUNT: Among many other things. It's a very long list. All right. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate you all being here on a Thanksgiving week, no less. Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well. Don't forget, you can now stream THE ARENA live, catch up whenever you want in the CNN app. You can scan that QR code. You can also catch up by listening to our podcast. There's a QR code for that. You can follow us on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN. Erica Hill is standing by for "THE LEAD". Hi, Erica. [END] --- [1] Url: https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/arena/date/2025-11-24/segment/01 Published and (C) by Common Dreams Content appears here under this condition or license: Creative Commons CC BY-NC-ND 3.0.. via Magical.Fish Gopher News Feeds: gopher://magical.fish/1/feeds/news/commondreams/