Newsgroups: comp.windows.x
Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!Firewall!uunet!stan!marvin!toml
From: toml@marvin.Solbourne.COM (Tom LaStrange)
Subject: Re: tvtwm patchlevel 6 available
In-Reply-To: swick@athena.mit.EDU's message of 13 Jun 91 16:41:38 GMT
Message-ID: <TOML.91Jun14100033@marvin.Solbourne.COM>
Sender: toml@solbourne.com (Tom LaStrange)
Organization: Solbourne Computer, Inc.
References: <TOML.91Jun12092357@morgul.Solbourne.COM>
	<9106131641.AA19511@lyre.MIT.EDU>
Date: 14 Jun 91 10:00:33

> So, the window manager is Trivial but the user&system have to do more work?

> Can anyone tell me why I should want to suffer through *wmxlate/vroot.h/
> non-interleavable_nailed_windows_and_un-nailed_windows rather than what
> seems to me to be the much more natural feeling provided by Williams
> and Edmondson's vtwm?

> -Ralph
> (speaking with his user's hat on for a change :-)


ji.had \ji-'ha:d, -'had\ n [Ar jiha-d] 1: a holy war waged on behalf of
   Islam as a religious duty 2: a crusade for a principle or belief


I'll give a two part answer, one as a user and the other as a developer

If I put my user's hat on and ignore the other minor things that vtwm and
tvtwm can do, I think there are two classes of users:

1. I use vtwm because it works and it doesn't break anything.
2. I use tvtwm because it works and its performance is better.

Depending on your workstation/network, you can determine for yourself which
class you want to fall in.  If you have a fast server and use tvtwm, you
"suffer" through the vroot.h stuff.  If you have a slow server and use vtwm,
you "suffer" every time you pan the desktop.


When I put on my toolkit/wm developer's hat, it gets a little more religious.
I know 90% of the users out there aren't going to care how the underlying
mechanism works, they just want it to work.

Here's the problem we're trying to solve:  Look through a viewport onto
a much larger object and be able move the viewport to see various portions
of the underlying object.  Right?

If you were trying to solve this problem with a toolkit, wouldn't you use
something like the Athena Viewport widget?  I certainly would.

As a user, vtwm may seem more natural, but with my developer hat on, the vtwm
approach seems like trying to move a big pile of dirt (the client windows) with
a shovel rather than a wheelbarrow.  It can be done, it's just a lot more
work.  Use the right tool for the job.

The arguments that "the user&system have to do more work" or as another mail
message put it, that tvtwm is more "stressful on the whole X environment"
don't hold much water with me either.  If we have that attitude, we probably
wouldn't even have reparenting window managers because they require clients
to have to do more work.

It took 2.5 years and 4 version of X11 to get the ICCCM and standard
reparenting window managers.  I sincerely hope that's not where it ends.
If we stop trying to push technology, what are we all going to do for a
living? :-)

Sorry for the heavy dose of religion.

--
Tom LaStrange        toml@Solbourne.COM
