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From: cyee@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Chut Ngeow YEE)
Subject: Re: The Nature and Function of a Guru
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 91 03:47:55 GMT
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Jim Schoonover (jamess@decwrl.dec.com) writes:
>In article <1991Jun3.160417.8006@nas.nasa.gov> cyee@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Chut Ngeow YEE) writes:
>>
>>[...]
>                    [...] So long as there is identification with the
>dream, or with the dreamed character that seems to be us, then samsara
>is decidedly NOT the same as Nirvana.  In that case, samsara is bondage.
>
>There is a marvelous essay in the book "Nirvanasara," titled "Nirvana
>and Samsara Are Not the Same," wherein Master Da makes the point that
>in the un-Enlightened condition Nirvana and samsara are the ultimate
>opposites.  The statement that they are the same is a radical expression
>(or confession) of the Realized, or seventh stage, point of view.  And
>he rails mightily against the tendency to popularize the equation of
>Nirvana and samsara, or the equation of atman and Brahman, into mere
>ideas which are believed but never Realized.  [Note, I don't mean to
>suggest that you are doing that.]
>
>So, it would appear that even the statements of a true Guru can, in a
>way, serve to reinforce our suffering.  The analogy of the Guru being
>the "sunlight on the pillow" is nice, but still this carries the
>implication that we are asleep (might as well say sick) and that we must
>wake up.  We then imagine that being Awake is something very desirable
>and so go to the Guru hoping that His mere Presence will somehow make
>IT happen.
>
>It's probably true that the most effective "method" is Satsang, communion
>with (and when possible in the physical presence of) a Spiritual Master,
>but this alone just doesn't seem to be sufficient for most individuals.
>There is usually also need for study, discipline and practice.  And, of
>course, Master Da calls us all to self-transcending practice.

Well said James. I have almost forgotten that you are still there listening
to the news groups. I have been very careful in not adding any
interpretations in my posting of Master Da's writings. You see, the moment
I did so...  I have considered postings "Nirvana and Samsara Are Not the
Same" but decided that it may be too technical for the community.

>
>I find it interesting that many who Awaken at first seem to have a notion
>that others will be awakened just by spending time in their company.
>If I correctly remember what I read in one of his biographies, this was
>the case with Krishnamurti. (Let's not quibble over the stature of, or
>the exact nature of, his realization.)  I also know of a couple of living
>Masters for whom this was the case.
>
>Now, when Franklin Jones wrote "The Knee of Listening," I don't think
>he ever imagined that he would end up producing all those books and all
>the detailed elaboration of his teaching.  The Realization was so obvious
>to him.  Pointing out to people the activity of self-contraction, giving
>them the practice of self-enquiry in the form "Avoiding relationship?"
>and simply revealing the Enlightened Condition to those who came into
>his presence would be all that was needed.  (Oops! I think I may be
>beginning to digress.)
>
>Let me just say that it seems to me that the excerpt from "The Gorilla
>Sermon" that you quoted may reflect a bit of that "optimism" of the
>early days of Master Da's teaching career.  Nevertheless, it is a
>wonderful piece, describing as it does the real value of the Guru for
>the spiritual seeker, and (I would say) effectively pointing to that
>which can only be Realized.  The statements about Understanding made me
>think of what Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj often said to those who came to
>him: "Understanding is All. Just be."
>

I think we are not in any position to judge a Realizer. Master Da is a
master of words and he usually paints both sides of the picture in one
breadth. On the one hand he says that "Nirvana is not the same as Samsara,"
but the moment we begin to put attension on our "problems" he would turn
around and bang on our head and says "Drop it all, stop meditating on your
problems, look, there is only Enlightenment, there is only God, and you
inhere in that Bright and Stary one".

About his apparent "optimism", it doesn't take me long to find the following
writings that paint the opposite picture:

Sri Da Avabhasa: "...The lifetime of the Spiritual Master is only sacrifice,
and therefore more a torment than the lifetime of the ordinary soul. Read
the biographies of the great Spiritual Masters. They all tell the same
story of a life that is terrible in some ways, a life in which frequently
they are exploited and rejected, and in which they are under the constant
threat of domination by worldly and negative forces.... No un-Enlightened
soul wants to be in the position of the Spiritual Maseter!" (197?)

Sri Da Avabhasa: "...But the true Guru doesn't have such an option. He has
to get up and arm-wrestly that idiotic disciple. He must curse at him again
and again and be difficult with him, and also continue to maintain himself
with humour... If there is anything that can you loss your humour, it is
a disciple!"  (1975)

Sri Da Avabhasa: "Spiritual life is a demand, it is a confrontation, it is
a relationship. It is not a method you apply to yourself... Truth itself
must become the process of life, and communicate itself, create conditions
in life, and make demands, restoring the conscious participation of the
individual. Dead Gurus can't kick ass!" (1972)

>This sounds to be a case of becoming entangled by words.  Of course
>Enlightenment is not some object to be grasped.  Nor is the Truth.  Nor
>is the Guru.  Forget the pointing finger; forget even the "moon" at
>which it points.  The words and concepts of any teaching are never the
>Truth.  When even the greatest of Realizers opens their mouth to teach,
>or to merely express the Realization, they're going to end up telling
>lies.  And, if some teacher stresses that he is only a pointer, possibly
>in the attempt (usually futile) to prevent his listeners from turning
>him into a cultic figure, who can blame him?

Ok, drop the words. Even Master Da himself use the term God-Pointer. When I
made the above commnet I was annoyed by the "Kill the Buddha" slogan floating
around. A Realizer can say that to dispel the notion that a Buddha or an
Enlightened One is a someone with a special status that an ego can obtain
somehow. But when it become a slogan phrase....

>
>>[...] I suggest that a
>>Realiser, an Enlightened One is no different from the Truth. (S)He lives the
>>Truth in human-bodily form and his(her) 'function' in the world is simply that
>>of being the sunshine that awakens us from our dream.
>
>Again, this is a nice idea, and perhaps true--or at least useful to the
>seeker who thereby rightly understands the value of Satsang.  Though I
>would ask: what makes you think you are the dreamer?
>
I do admire the sharpness of your wit. I was slapping myself when I made
the above comments, and I will slap myself again if I were to ansewer your
question. Perhaps you can do that for me.

>-Jim
It is nice to hear from you again. I was having difficulties getting through
to you some 9 months ago. Then before I knew it I was on my way to my Guru,
an almost brand new student-beginner short-circuiting the normal procedure.
Master Da is short-circuiting me in many ways. I went through massive amount
of purifications in his company. For most of the time the body and mind felt
like a battle ground where my Guru worked to turn the lifetimes of habit
energies around. I think cold turkey couldn't feel any worse. There were
also sublime and heart-breaking moments, but they happen just frequent
enough to keep the maddening love alive to stay with him.  I might write
more about that later. Before I end, here is another beautiful writing that
I found:
 
   -----------------------------------------------------------------
Sir Da Avabhasa: "Merely to be in the Company of the Spiritual Master does
not produce Enlightenment, or even pleasurable experience! People who are
intimately associated with the person of the Spiritual Master may not be
devotees at all. They may, in fact, have a great deal of difficulty, or
their life may be very pleasurable but without spiritual consciousness. In
the history of the spiritual and religious traditions there are countless
stories of individuals who have been close to the Spiritual Master (or to
an individual with a spiritual function of one or another kind or degree)
who ultimately betrayed that individual or were very unhappy in his (or her)
company.

There is only one Law, and its demonstration in any individual's case
depends on whether he or she is self-possessed or self-surrending. Those
who are self-possessed will be purified, but the force of the Spiritual
Master offends them or manifests as difficulties in their lives. Without
any malicious intention on his part, or even any intention at all, the Force
of the Spiritual Master can cause pain, difficulty, suffering, and even
illusion in the case of an individual who presumes to enter into and exploit
the Company of the Spiritual Master without surrendering, like a thief who
has come to steal. Such individual may have difficulty or seem to be
enjoying themselves, but in any case they delude themselves in the midst of
enjoyment.

Those who approach the Spiritual Master as devotees are likewise purified,
but they are also transformed and ultimately Enlightened. Their history is
benign, but not merely pleasurable in the coventional sense. Those who
approach the Spiritual Master as devotees, in the mood and action of true
surrender, by virtual of that relationship are given the Grace, the Force,
the Power of transformation and liberation by the Spiritual Master.
Nevertheless, they are responsible for the results of their actions. The
Spiritual Master cannot determine the destiny of the individual beyond this
choice for which the individual himself is responsible. The Master can work
in all kinds of ways to instigate this choice, to awaken the individual to
choose to surrender, but until he (or she) realizes surrender, the Law
determines his experience. If he is not surrendered, he is deluded. His
spiritual life, to whatever degree he may think he is involved in such a
life, becomes difficult and offensive to him. Anything pleasurable that he
realizes in the Company of the Spiritual Master serves to delude him and
make him more self-possessed. Once the induvidual is awakened by the
argument and Presence of the Spiritual Master, however, then the Force of
that Company beigns to purify and transform him. The Company of the
Spiritual Master serves the self-transcendence, the surrender, the sacrifice
in God, that the individual's total life must ultimately represent.
Therefore, those who surrender to the Spiritual Master are Enlightened."

                                                                 DA AVABHASA
                                           Vision Mount, vol 2, no 11 (1979)


