Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!maverick.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!hoss!greg
From: greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.)
Subject: Re: MD-BASIC (was:Re: Apple ][ BBS Software)
Message-ID: <1991Jun4.191946.12896@unlinfo.unl.edu>
Sender: news@unlinfo.unl.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: hoss.unl.edu
Organization: GBBS/ACOS Sysop Support
References: <808@generic.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1991 19:19:46 GMT
Lines: 160

sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (Matthew Montano) writes:

>My opinions on ACOS: It's buggy as hell. Applesoft, albeit an interpreted
>program, has virtually zero bugs. ACOS' bugs are intermittent and can [wreak 
>havok] on a system.

What version of ACOS were you using?  What version of ProDOS were you
using?

I had lots of strange bugs (like it saying clr$=chr$(12)+chr$(0)+chr$(0)
was a String Too Long error at the first + on the first pass after
startup, but not after hitting S on the ***RESTART prompt) which I finally
was able to track down to ProDOS 8 v1.7.  Also lots of LINK errors which
fixed themselves in the opposite manner of the clr$ bug.  Updating to the
ProDOS 8 v1.8 supplied in the upgrade archive available for free download
from L&L Support fixed this.  I'm now running ProDOS 8 v1.9, and still no
major bugs.  (The LINK errors caused ML crashes.  No longer with the right
ProDOS.)

Basically, ACOS is picky about the version of ProDOS you use.  It
shouldn't be, but it is.

>It's handling of message files is attrocious (although
>unique) and dangerous.

I love how it does it.  Saves lots of space wasted with using regular text
files, and one rarely needs to write more than 4K, unless you are doing
major >including.  Access is nice and fast.  One sysop used message files
for more than just storing messages.  Storing custom user emulations.
Information on locations of downloads.  Quote generators.  He stopped
using it due to using wrong ProDOS and not realizing it.  Now he's trying
his hand at coding his own system in C.

Lack of message files is one of the drawbacks I find with METAL, which is
a rather good system, which will have more standard features than ProLine
when finished.

>ACOS has virtually no control over the serial port and
>local screen except through poke's and peek's.

And ProLine does?  Have you ever used the PRINT @ command in ACOS?  That
is part of the code in LOGON.SEG.  There are also ways to direct output to
console-only or modem-only.  This was all outlined in the manual.

>ACOS cannot make a IIgs modem
>port dial out.. useless for networking.

I don't know about that.  My modem is internal, and I don't network
anyway.  Not a requirement for a BBS, never was.

>I wrote a complete networking/mail handler system in ACOS a few years back. I
>never released it, but would dread doing it again. I was constantly fighting
>ACOS bugs. It was also horribly slow. ACOS' bugs creep up in linking programs,
>the use of global variables etc.

Sounds like problems with ProDOS version to me.

>As well, ACOS does nasty things at the ProDOS level. Think it uses MLI calls
>to read and write files? Nope, reads and writes files itself, block by block,
>by passing the standard MLI calls. Real stupid there.. your simply asking for
>a corrupted HD.

Again, what version of ACOS?  Also, what hard drive?  I've never gotten a
corrupted disk from using ACOS.  I run off 2 800K disks.  With a little
moving around of files, I could add a file transfer system, but who needs
it?  There are already too many such systems around here.  Just asking for
leeches.

>I paid $45 more for ProLine, and got a LOT more. For one thing, I can call (or
>email) the author if I have a problem. He'll respond, usually with a fix,
>whatta concept.

While support from L&L Support is substandard, one can usually get good
help from fellow sysops.  The variables on$ and off$ have become defined
for specific purposes already, and are often found used canonically in any
new segment.  (Myself, I don't like them, but that's a personal opinion. :-)

L&L Support isn't the only support system available.  There are other
official support boards, unofficial support boards, and even one which is
"an officially unofficial support board."  If you can pin down a bug in a
reproducable form, Lance supposedly would get it fixed.

>I was writing a module for ProLine that would use a
>non-sanctioned method of transfering messages faster. The author of ProLine
>STILL helped me work on it.

Think he'll help with a non-sanctioned method of storing the system on
separate partitions/disks?

>Almost any level headed suggestion gets
>implemented in ProLine on the next release.

From what I've been told, mine would probably not be considered a "level
headed suggestion".

>ProLine sysops were talking about
>a mail-based UNIX style mail-server. Two weeks later, we had one!

I still don't see why people hail UNIX as THE system to emulate.  It isn't
as if it were perfection incarnate.  (Uh oh, sounds like I'll be flamed by
those who follow the UNIX religion.)

>Before
>anyone wanted a full screen editor, we got one! 

A full screen editor is available for ACOS.  METAL has one built-in.

>GBBS is a speedy, customizable package which doesn't follow the rules for
>accessing the HD, uses poor security measures for passwords,

Poor security measures?  You mean not having them encrypted in the files?
Why bother encrypting them when it isn't even possible for the users to
access the file?

>has many back
>doors etc.

I'm just waiting for someone to try.  VCRs are your friends.

>Has no standards for networking.

Who really NEEDS networking?  Ogg-NET is working fine, and code is being
worked on to tie into USENET, Future-NET, and even ProLine systems.
FidoNET code already exists, and is implemented on L&L Support now.

>Is ridden with bugs in the ACOS
>compiler.

Again, if you ran the right ProDOS, most of those bugs would vanish.

>GBBS's technical support person, Lance Taylor Warren never even
>WROTE the damn program... he hardly knows 65C02 code! Mr. Warren has been
>promising a new version of the GBBS system since a I year before I bought
>GBBS, in 1987!

True, I don't have too good of an opinion of "Lancey Taylor".  LLUCE is
the best piece of VaporWare I know.

>Bug fixes (i.e. ACOS v2.0) cost people money!.. and it wasn't
>bug free.... UGH!

Huh?  It didn't cost me to upgrade to v2.11, other than a phone call,
which I believe is what has been stated is all it costs for ProLine.  I
had pre-2.0 before.  Never expect an n.0 version to be bug free; there
are very few exceptions.

>Not that GBBS is horrible... But for MOST people, ProLine represents a better
>BBS system to go for.

For the new sysop with a low budget and no-frills hardware, I cannot
suggest ProLine.  I'd have to suggest ACOS or METAL.

>Matthew
>Email: sysadmin@pnet91.cts.com (most mailers won't barf on that..)

--
///   ____   \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are
| |/ /    \ \| |       several--one of the many major problems with governing
 \\_|\____/|_//            people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu    point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
