Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
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From: greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.)
Subject: Re: Apple ][ BBS Software
Message-ID: <1991Jun3.054458.25272@unlinfo.unl.edu>
Sender: news@unlinfo.unl.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: hoss.unl.edu
Organization: GBBS/ACOS Sysop Support
References: <1991May30.042425.6881@clark.edu> <1991May31.193204.8485@unlinfo.unl.edu> <1991Jun2.101318.11424@techbook.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1991 05:44:58 GMT
Lines: 272

tsouth@techbook.com (Todd South) writes:
>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) writes:
>>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes:

>>MD-BASIC, as you said in a later message, does indeed require a IIgs.  If
>>you don't have one, you're stuck with editing AppleSoft code, which is
>>damn hard with how it comes out of the box.  I should know, I've been
>>trying to get it to work on 2 800K disks, lacking a hard drive.  Perhaps
>>the cost of one of those should be added to the list for ProLine's price.
>>Such an investment is not a necessity with GBBS "Pro" or METAL.  I have
>>both resident in an 800K RAMdisk with one 800K drive which I swap when I
>>switch between them.  To even go back to ProLine to do editing, I have to
>>archive my entire RAMdisk, copy one disk over, and then deal with
>>sequential AppleSoft, hoping I can find something I can do with it.  I'm
>>about ready to put all BAS files into TXT so I can at least use ProTERM on
>>them.  (Oh, that's in the RAMdisk too, and I still have plenty of space
>>left.)

>I have to take exception to this.  If you are simply using the basic
>cli to edit Applesoft programs then that is your problem.  As far as
>I remember, GBBS up to version 1.3j had NO editor whatsoever.

A GBBS without an editor wouldn't be a BBS, since you don't have any way
to enter messages.  You must be in error.  On all versions I'm familiar
with, the EDIT() series of commands and functions have existed.

>Until
>ProTERM came out most people had to use AppleWriter and the switch
>back and forth was a pain in the ass.

Before I had ProTERM, I used FreeWriter, which seemed designed for it with
its habit of being 1 character in from the leftmost column.

>If you are going to edit Applesoft
>programs then shell out the $15 for a Beagle Bros. assistant program.

Ah, something else to add to the price of ProLine then, eh?

>I know you spent at least that much on a text editor for GBBS.

FreeWriter was, as its name implies, free.

>Also, on the second point of the above paragraph,  I know nothing about
>METAL but up until version 2.0 GBBS/ACOS still could not handle any
>message over 4K in length.

The editor is limited to 4K.  This exists in the version I run, v2.11.
Last time I left a message on a METAL system, it said I had over 1 MB of
free space in the full-screen editor.

>All whining aside about ACOS not having
>arrays, a message system with a 4K limit is USELESS.  The article you
>posted that I am responding to was 9.673 bytes by my count.  GBBS
>could not even post the article.

I do believe you mean K, not bytes.  I've never posted a message with a
fractional character. :-)

Meanwhile, other systems in the area are surviving quite well with limits
of 50 lines of 80 columns.  One doesn't always >include on a normal BBS
(unless it happens to be another FidoNET system) or other networking
beast.

>Proline has no limits other than
>the 16 meg limit on files of ProDOS.

There exist programs which bypass the ACOS limit.  Only a few people
around here find themselves writing messages beyond that limit.  A system
of linked messages is being worked on by myself to get rid of things like
"continued next message".  Sure would help with my reformatter, which
prints all messages at the reader's screen width.  (Not yet released.)

>>You need
>>MD-BASIC if you want to edit the code nicely, otherwise you are stuck with
>>AppleSoft.  Perhaps I should add that to run MD-BASIC you need a shell
>>like in APW or ORCA.

>Well, how much does ProgramWriter go for, nowadays?  I don't think it
>costs that much.

Again, you are adding to the cost.  I have a program that is less than 4K
that allows me to edit segments online in ACOS.  Another that allows
editing of files larger than 4K, all without loss of carrier.  Very useful
for editing the system from remote.

And all without stepping back to edit sequentially numbered AppleSoft
online.

>>>How much room do you want to run a BBS on!?  5 MB is hardly a big deal.  If
>>>you're serious about running a BBS, then hell, you need a LOT more than just
>>>5 MB...that's an absurd point.

>>I've been running GBBS just fine off 2 800K disks.  For awhile, I was
>>completely comfortable with the whole thing in a 1024K RAMdisk.  A hard
>>drive is not something everyone has.

>Well, obviously you're not a warez board with a setup like that! :)

I was told from Morgan that if I wanted to run a system with lots of files
for download, then ProLine wasn't the one for me.  This implies to me that
ProLine isn't the best system for files.  This again came from the author,
and he should know, right?

>Honestly, why would someone run a board with no realistic storage.
>If you were networked to even one feed from USENET you would have to
>purge most every message before even a few users would be able to
>read them.

NETWORKING IS NOT NECESSARY TO RUN A BBS!  I run with 9 message bases, and
have had no conflicts yet, all in a 1600K storage configuration.

>>>ProLine is still the BEST, and will be for a LONG while,
>>>networking BBS on the market for the Apple //!

>>Watch out for METAL.  Comes with networking, structured language included
>>(unlike MD-BASIC), and support via network as well.

>Hate to tell you, but Proline has all of these things and more, mate.
>We STILL get all of our updates for free.

Updates are free for METAL and ACOS too.  All you pay for is the call.

>Morgan is very good about
>putting his spare time into the system, and he sure as hell doesn't
>count on it for a living.  While I don't agree with everything Morgan
>has done in direction, you cannot show me another BBS author that
>provides the support that he does.

>And before you call me laddie
>I'd like to pass along that I started playing with these MOD/DEMs
>when 110 was vogue.

Since this "laddie" comment is out of context, I'd like to explain that my
"laddie" comment was in response to a statement saying ProLine had the
best ProLine specific network.  Such a statement is meaningless, don't you
think?  I guess I'm the only one who say the humor.

I guess you are older than I, since I started with 300 bps with a
Micromodem II hooked up to slot 4 of a //e.  (That was the recommended
slot at the time, if slot 3 was taken.)  Racked up a pretty high phone
bill at that school.

>>Hey, I'm not all against ProLine, it has some real good features.  However
>>I have to weigh the pros and cons of each system.

>As I see it, Proline has one single con at this point.  I won't bring
>it up as it may be changing in the near future.

Yeah, I thought I could have said something insulting earlier, that it
doesn't have Ymodem, while others had it for a long time, and now have
Zmodem.  Plus, I understand that these protocols will be adding a large
amount to the cost of ProLine, plus possibly a fee to upgrade to it, due
to all the work put into it.  Other limitations:

(1) Requires a larger investment in hardware (hard drive, IIgs to get the
    same level of programming ease)
(2) Requires a larger investment in software (MD-BASIC to easily edit
    code, AppleSoft compiler to speed up AppleSoft or accellerator, APW or
    ORCA to use MD-BASIC)

Others?  Read some of the older messages.

>Sufficed to say,
>it is a great utility set for the intermediate to advanced user, and
>also is one helluva message/network base.

Yeah.  I guess you require experience with a simpler BBS program then,
since you don't list beginning user.  ProLine isn't the most user-friendly
system.

>Have you ever noticed that Proline
>utilities and programs run rather fast?  The reason for this was
>originally sequential numbering.

I understand the speed increase.

>Just because MD-BASIC numbers in a
>sequential fashion has nothing to do with pissing anyone off,

Ah, so increased anger from people who want to make changes is just a
byproduct of the compiler.  Wonderful.

>making them
>convert renumbering programs (btw, the way to convert that is to rename
>the file commands to ProDOS ones, not that hard),

I see you have no knowledge of the renumber program from DOS 3.3.  It is
an ampersand utility, and does not convert to ProDOS and still run.  I'm
not going to dig into ML for it.  Instead, I'll grab one off of an FTP
site that I was pointed to.

>or making them use
>MD-BASIC.  Really, a person can still use ProgramWriter or another
>good Applesoft editor to write Proline utilities and alter current
>system programs.

Ah, yet another external routine required, pushing up the price.

>We even have conferences where we do nothing but tell
>each other about patches to make things work the way we want them.

GBBS/ACOS has its support systems as well.  Even an Internet mailing list!

>>>Still a firm supporter of ProLine...
>>>Amrit

>>I'm definitely not trying to throw you off your support of ProLine.  I
>>just don't suggest it for someone who wants to start a BBS for the first
>>time.  ProLine isn't that system.  If I wanted to code an AppleSoft BBS,
>>I'd be using Sonic BBS right now.  Right now I'm using ACOS.  GBBS itself
>>has been very modified to a barely recognizeable state.  It is nice to be
>>able to make self-modifying code.

>Sonic?  That would be a sick proposition.  No real internal control
>at all!

>Seriously, you must not own a copy of Proline to even begin to compare
>it to GBBS.

Bzzz, wrong answer.  It's sitting on the desk right behind me.  Proof?
Page 128, paragraph 3, sentence one:

|Using Next automatically marks the current message for deletion,
|and then proceeds to display the next message.

(I use | to indicate text included from an outside source.)

>The only reason that GBBS is around today is some mystic
>personage a while back (we like to call him the genius of Miami) wrote
>a good transfer section for GBBS and has followed through with protocols
>that make it a good program to run pirate warez boards off of.  Without
>the pirate support base I honestly don't feel that GBBS would have the
>following it does today.

I have never run a pirate system.  I got my liking for GBBS from the few
systems I saw here in Lincoln during a summer.  I've been using it ever
since.

>There is not one thing done in GBBS (excluding
>protocols) that is not easily repoduced and done better from within
>Proline.

I have stuff that would not be possible, or if so, definitely not possible
to be done better.  Ability to code in ACOS online is one.  Can you code
in MD-BASIC online?

>The ONLY reason that MD-BASIC came into existance is for 
>programming Applesoft from a more freeform atmosphere.  It had nothing
>to do with Proline, IMHO.  I purchased Proline in early 1987 and have
>been programming my own stuff for it without the use of MD-BASIC since
>the first week it arrived in the mail.

Key phrase is "programming my own stuff for it".  What about modifying the
code itself, or do you still run using the same system core?  It is much
easier to write one's own code than to modify other's.  However creating a
new core program from scratch is not an option.

One thing GBBS has is a printing of the whole source code in the manual.
Since it is well contained in only 4 files, this makes it very manageable,
and still very powerful.  It encourages modification, addition of fast ML
externals, and creation of new code in both senses.  METAL goes a step
further of being able to include assembly code in the source file, which
is compiled by the same program that runs it.

>Todd...
>tsouth@techbook.COM  ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!tsouth

--
///   ____   \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are
| |/ /    \ \| |       several--one of the many major problems with governing
 \\_|\____/|_//            people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu    point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
