Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
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From: greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.)
Subject: Re: Apple ][ BBS Software
Message-ID: <1991May31.193204.8485@unlinfo.unl.edu>
Sender: news@unlinfo.unl.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: hoss.unl.edu
Organization: GBBS/ACOS Sysop Support
References: <1991May30.042425.6881@clark.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1991 19:32:04 GMT
Lines: 210

apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes:

>In-Reply-To: message from greg@hoss.unl.edu


>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com replies to:
>>>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Name?) writes:

Ouch, you completely fucked up the attribution!  Let's try this again:

apollo@pro-hundugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes:
>greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr) writes:
>>apollo@pro-hundugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes:

>>Don't forget to mention that MD-BASIC requires an Apple IIgs to run, and
>>adds to the price of the product.  Another fun things is that the code
>>comes in AppleSoft with sequential line numbers, making editing a chore
>>without a renumbering program.

>MD-BASIC can't only operate on the Apple IIgs.  How can there be over 50 or
>greater ProLine sites operating on Apple //e's?!  MD-Basic is not Apple IIgs
>specific...you may need to upgrade the lower //'s a bit, but it still works
>on them.  You may have been talking about the actual compiler...I'm talking
>about ProLine BBS not the compiler.

MD-BASIC, as you said in a later message, does indeed require a IIgs.  If
you don't have one, you're stuck with editing AppleSoft code, which is
damn hard with how it comes out of the box.  I should know, I've been
trying to get it to work on 2 800K disks, lacking a hard drive.  Perhaps
the cost of one of those should be added to the list for ProLine's price.
Such an investment is not a necessity with GBBS "Pro" or METAL.  I have
both resident in an 800K RAMdisk with one 800K drive which I swap when I
switch between them.  To even go back to ProLine to do editing, I have to
archive my entire RAMdisk, copy one disk over, and then deal with
sequential AppleSoft, hoping I can find something I can do with it.  I'm
about ready to put all BAS files into TXT so I can at least use ProTERM on
them.  (Oh, that's in the RAMdisk too, and I still have plenty of space
left.)

>>>Morgan introduced it in like 1984 and ever
>>>since then quite a few sysops have added mods to it.  He has welcomed it.
>>>We have a great BBS.  And no it's not expensive.  You can pick up a copy of
>>>ProLine from Programs Plus for just under $100...more like $95.  It's a
>>>great deal then!

>>Let me quote from the Product Guide from the Morgan Davis Group:
>>
>>ProLine      $195.50
>>ModemWorks     59.95
>>MD-BASIC       49.95
>>              ------
>>             $305.30

Let's at least be fair and compare list prices to list prices.  Er, anyone
have the list for GBBS "Pro"?

>You do NOT need all the programs listed above for ProLine to work.  You buy
>ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and you are all set to go.  You don't NEED
>ModemWorks or MD-BASIC for ProLine to run.  I don't own either one and I
>bought ProLine from Programs Plus for $95 and am running on it right now...
>is that expensive for all of ProLine's capabilites? 

I'm trying to figure out what the ModemWorks disk is for myself.  You need
MD-BASIC if you want to edit the code nicely, otherwise you are stuck with
AppleSoft.  Perhaps I should add that to run MD-BASIC you need a shell
like in APW or ORCA.

>>If you want a BBS that can run on a HD-less system, then ProLine is not
>>the right BBS software for you.  (Req. 5 MB on one volume, minimum.) 

>How much room do you want to run a BBS on!?  5 MB is hardly a big deal.  If
>you're serious about running a BBS, then hell, you need a LOT more than just
>5 MB...that's an absurd point.

I've been running GBBS just fine off 2 800K disks.  For awhile, I was
completely comfortable with the whole thing in a 1024K RAMdisk.  A hard
drive is not something everyone has.

>>>If you're looking for networking capablities...you
>>>can't chose anything BUT ProLine...

>>Not for long.  Networking exists for GBBS "Pro" and METAL.  For Internet
>>networking, I am told that it won't be long 'til METAL has that.

>Regardless of the networking capabilities of GBBS MIGHT have,

GBBS DOES have networking capabilities.  METAL is now shipping with its
own network code included.

>ProLine still
>has by far the best ProLine specific network.

Laddie, don't you think you should... rephrase that?  (Sorry, I'm
laughing.)

>It has been a growing network
>for well over nine years...GBBS, IF it does start, will be just that...just
>starting...

Apparently you have never been on an OGG-NET board.  That is a GBBS
network.

>ProLine is still the BEST, and will be for a LONG while,
>networking BBS on the market for the Apple //!

Watch out for METAL.  Comes with networking, structured language included
(unlike MD-BASIC), and support via network as well.

>>Still, networking is not what it takes to get people interested in your
>>system.  If you have too many net.messages, some users won't like it.

>Well, users can chose which topics they want to be joined to, or if they
>don't even want that conference, they can unjoin themselves from that.  No
>one is forcing you to read all the net messages...you join what you want and
>it will keep track of what you are joined to ONLY and not give you the 100
>messages from every other conference.

True.  While GBBS' method of a single message counter allows for quick
adding and deleting of message areas, it isn't appropriate when it permits
users to "unsubscribe" to groups or for networked systems.  Modification
to a more logical form of independent counters won't be too difficult.
The style encourages modification, as opposed to the BAS files ProLine
uses.  The fact that ProLine handles that properly is a plus for it.

Hey, I'm not all against ProLine, it has some real good features.  However
I have to weigh the pros and cons of each system.

>Let's get that straight...and hell, I
>have about 40 users that JUST use the conference areas...who says it steers
>people away...it has attracted so many to my system!

I view net-only readers like I view game-only or file-only users.
Chat-only are the bottom of the barrel.

>>>It's
>>>worth the investment if you're looking for network capabilities.

>>True.

... if you're looking for network capabilities.  Not everyone NEEDS that.

>To recap, ProLine by Morgan Davis has got to be the most comprehensive
>message system on the Apple Market Today.  There is no threat by GBBS or any
>other software for taking that title away in the near future.

I wouldn't put it past the METAL package.  Plus, it is more affordable,
direct from the author than ProLine.

>ProLine has
>been establishing its name for over 6-9 years now, and a new system will be
>just that...brand new and until it has had time to mature, it won't be able
>to compete with ProLine.

What was ProLine like when it first came out?  How long was it worked on
before it was "born"?  (Hmm, that reminds me, I need to contact someone
regarding GBBS ][.)

>ProLine is flexible and I've heard so much crap
>about boards for the IBM (TAG) and all they're good for is little 12
>year-olds that run around playing GOD of the BBS, taking this and that away. 
>I'm very impressed with Morgan's program and your criticisms (sp--it's late)
>are not well founded at this time.

I'm not touching the morass of IBM systems.  Let's stick with just the
Apple systems for now.  As to my criticisms, from what I've seen they
still do apply to ProLine.  There are still things that other programs
have that are ahead of ProLine.

>About the renumbering program, if you really want to make serious changes to
>the system, you as a hopefully knowledgable programmer sure as hell better
>have a renumbering program!

I do.  It's in DOS 3.3.  Not very useful there.  Doesn't like ProDOS much.
My filing system for back A+/inCider issues is pretty poor, but I think I
saw a modification which would make RENUMBER work in ProDOS.  Anyone want
to save me the time?

>Morgan doesn't want just anyone changing his
>system around.  He did that to discourage sysops that really don't know
>enough about BASIC (like me) from totally ruining their systems.

Yeah, and its preventing me from being able to get the thing to work on my 
system.  I know BASIC, but sequential numbering is a bit much.

>I don't see
>why that is a fault of ProLine.  At least you CAN change it and even add
>programs to it.  I did, and my knowledge of BASIC is three years in Middle
>School...how much easier does it get!

With its current form, the only viable way is to use MD-BASIC.

>Still a firm supporter of ProLine...
>Amrit

I'm definitely not trying to throw you off your support of ProLine.  I
just don't suggest it for someone who wants to start a BBS for the first
time.  ProLine isn't that system.  If I wanted to code an AppleSoft BBS,
I'd be using Sonic BBS right now.  Right now I'm using ACOS.  GBBS itself
has been very modified to a barely recognizeable state.  It is nice to be
able to make self-modifying code.

>==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481===
>ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods     | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com     |
>UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil |

--
///   ____   \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are
| |/ /    \ \| |       several--one of the many major problems with governing
 \\_|\____/|_//            people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu    point, who gets people to let them do it to them."
