Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st.tech
Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!uace0
From: uace0@menudo.uh.edu (Michael B. Vederman)
Subject: Re: How to intercept TOS vectores
Message-ID: <1991May25.160636.3880@menudo.uh.edu>
Keywords: XBRA
Organization: University of Houston
References: <1991May21.185858.2974@imada.ou.dk> <1991May23.134352.18075@menudo.uh.edu> <1991May24.175604.21137@imada.ou.dk>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1991 16:06:36 GMT

In article <1991May24.175604.21137@imada.ou.dk> micro@imada.ou.dk (Klaus Pedersen) writes:
>uace0@menudo.uh.edu (Michael B. Vederman) writes:
>>No one is asking you to leave, but if you are going to make claims about
>>software that doesn't work (especially when the company that makes the
>>software is on the net AND when you have never complained OR registered
>>that company's software directly with the company), then you had better
>>substantiate your post!
>
>Now you wait a second, the software is shareware (or it might have been
>a demoversion). It is therefor my right to try the software first and if
>it don't work - then erase it from my harddisc, right? 

You are correct about DC Formatter, it is shareware.  And as such, you have
every right to do whatever you deem necessary with it (including, but not
excluding FILE 13 - the trash).

If you were paying attention, I wasn't referring to that, but rather
DC Desktop.

Your original post (to paraphrase) said somethin like: "Many programs suffer
this problem, several come to mind including DC Stuff..."

Such a broad sweeping statement deserves attention and immediate rebuttal.


>You can't expect that I pay for software I can't use, can you? If you can
>then I have some ideas to make big money! 
>Whats more, you can't expect that anyone with TOS 1.4 or the least programming
>skill will pay money for a formatter! 
>
>>You are once AGAIN making an unsubstatiated claim about our software!
>
>again, correct me if it is wrong, I tried a formatter of yours, I could not
>use it, now why should I try any other of your products?

Again, you can act as you like, at least over here, it is a free country and
I respect your right to do what you want.  HOWEVER (and this is a big HOWEVER)
you do not have the right to hurt someone else (or attempt to damage someone's
or some company's reputation) in doing so.

Your unsupported claims caused my zealous reaction.

I have already conceeded DC Formatter's problem with opening a bad VDI handle,
but this will not affect you (usually) unless you have GDOS installed.  Barring
the use of GDOS (or equivalent), you should have been able to use it.

>Ok, I did try another(dcdesktop), and it did not work (not everybody have
>an english desktop - and as you probaly can see english is not my main 
>language, so there might have been a slight chance that that was the case, 
>right?).

Again, I already conceeded that point, so what's the point you are making?
DC Desktop is highly ROM dependent.  We have and are working with our
overseas distributors to insure that it will work with non-American TOSes.
Which it does for all ROM versions we have been able to get our hands on.

>
>>DC Desktop DOES work, and we have _many_ satisfied customers!  DC Desktop,
>I think it depends on who you are!
>I would not be satisfied with software that took chances with undocumented
>variables/text/functions.

You only have our guarantee that if you want these features in the manner
we provide them (supplementing the existing OS, not replacing it) then
this is the only way to do it.

Our knowledge of the workings of GEM and TOS is quite extensive.

The only "chance" the software takes is that it will not work on a version
it does not recognize.

>And I hope for all the people that have bought your software that _you_
>stay with Atari for many TOSses.
>
>>however, is _highly_ ROM specific in order to wedge in and supplement the
>>OS functions. 

Double Click Software has been in business since 1986, and we have every
intention to continue developing and supporting the Atari computers as
long as they are around.

All of our staff have been using Atari computers since the days of the
Atari 400, and programming for just as long on them.

>
>Yes that is the problem when you have spent to many hours with a disassembler
>in the area about 0xE0_0000. One can not resist the temptation - right?
>
>> If you have problems running our software.
>>1) Why not contact us directly, instead of spreading unsupportable claims?
>
>I did not contact you because when I needed a formatter (PC-comp.) I tryed
>out many diffrend ones (yours included), and If I should have mailed to all
>the people with formatters that did not work, I would probaly still be mailing
>today. And I did find a better alternative (FreeWare with source).
>

Again, confusion in what we are discussing.  I was talking about your claims
about DC Desktop.  As for DC Formatter, do as you like...

>As I said in my previous post, it was not my intension to flame anybody, but
>rather to give an example that people could relate to, and I thought that 
>people knew your software - right...
>

Sure, what damage can happen by just making a broad statement about software
that doesn't work and tacking on the end "and DC program have problems too"
(to paraphrase).

If you didn't mean to flame anyone, then don't mention names!

It seems quite clear from your posts that you singled us out of the thousands
of problem programs.  Why?  I can't begin to guess why.  Perhaps your knowledge
of programs which have the problem you originally described (a bad VDI handle)
was not as extensive as you would have us believe, therefore, without providing
any real evidence, you committed a fallacy in logic and decided to group all
of our programs together, simply because a _very_ old program (our first)
exhibited the problem (the fallacy is 'generalization').

>This is becomming annoying, I wanted to help newcommers writing better software
>and I end up arguing with a long time hacker. 
>
>Klaus, micro@imada.ou.dk
>
>>- mike vederman

If you want to help out, then don't attempt to come off as a 'know-it-all'.

State precisely what you have knowledge about and leave it at that.

Had you originally just said "I know DC Formatter has this problem.  Others
may exist, but I can't comment about them since I don't have first hand
experience with them."

We would not be wasting band-width attempting to straighten out a misleading
satement.

And now back to the originally scheduled discussion...

- mike vederman

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