Newsgroups: comp.mail.uucp
Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!news.cs.indiana.edu!maytag!xenitec!iguana!merce
From: merce@iguana.uucp (Jim Mercer)
Subject: Re: BITFTP
Message-ID: <1991May20.194024.17428@iguana.uucp>
Organization: Ed (the iguana) Memorial Society
References: <e3k922w163w@phoenix.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 91 19:40:24 GMT

[ ok, so i couldn't resist ]

In article <e3k922w163w@phoenix.com> stanley@phoenix.com (John Stanley) writes:
>   In fact, this is one of the reasons I did NOT look for a free feed
>when I set this site up. I did not want to be at the mercy of someone
>who was doing me a favor and thus felt that they could change the rules
>in mid-stream. I pay my feed in return for unlimited news and mail. 

as long as your mail begins and ends at the site you are paying, you are not
at the mercy of anyone other than them. 

when your mail leaves that site and enters the internet or uucpNET, then you
are at the mercy of the sites that forward your mail.

your fees to PSI do not guarantee anything outside of PSI.

if you think they do, you are sorely mistaken.

>> >want from them. Well, tough titties for Ontario. When they change their
>> >opinion, maybe I will change mine. 
>> 
>> They will not change their opinion because they are not in business to
>> service your every whim and desire. 
>
>   Then they should have no opinion about my 'whim and desire'. It has no
>bearing on them, and they have no say in the matter.

your whim and desire have an impact on all users on USENET.

>> Wake up. It is not because of Ontario's or anybody elses problems that
>> you (and everybody else) have lost their free ftp lunch. It is a constant
>> pattern of abuse, which you seem to advocate, 
>
>   I have never advocated abuse, and unless you can prove it, stop saying
>it. It is a lie.

you advocate use of BITFTP.
we consider BITFTP as abuse.

therefore, in our opinion, you advocate abuse.

clear enough?

[ oh, no! geoff, you have been accused of posting a falsehood about someone
  on the net.  better hope Mr. Stanley doesn't know John Palmer, or he'll
  have private detectives following you and try to have you committed to
  an asylum. 8^) ]

[ Mr. Stanley, if you don't know what the above reference is to, you don't
  have enough background to be debating USENET quasi-policy ]

>> That was the generic "me" I was using. 
>
>   Why do you take it upon yourself to speak for all "me"s? If none of
>the "me"s who have handled my mail have complained what makes you think
>that you have the right to decide for them that I am abusing the system?

you are in a minority, where you are paying for your feed and have some
feeling that you can dump on your feed when something goes wrong.  or that
you can demand a level of service because you laid cash out.

most sites on USENET have free feeds and are dependent on the generosity of
the net in general.

>> Obviously I was not clear enough
>> for your blinkered field of vision. Let me rephrase. If x user on a
>> machine not directly connected to the internet wants to get some source
>> *now*, x user can pay for it (not pay *ME*, or his upstream admins, for
>> it but pay for it himself, with his machine, his modem, his phone bill
>> and his time).
>
>   And I already pay for this myself, with my machine, my modem, my phone
>bill, and my time. 

what about the machines/modems/phonebills of systems beyond you and PSI?

>> As has
>> been pointed out many times now, Ontario is not responsible for your loss,
>> and yet you choose to make snide comments. Makes you look real friendly.
>
>   When complaints about BITFTP caused it to shut down, Ontario's opinion
>was "too bad". When Ontario found out that it might have to pay for
>Internet access, it wanted sympathy. Sorry. That is a two way street.

attention americans!!!

Mr. Stanley is reinforcing the stereotype that you don't know much about 
anything outside of the US and that you believe that anything outside of the
US is just some backwater little country.

Mr. Stanley, Ontario is a big place.  no one has posted on their behalf.

i referenced some problems the ontario uucp community was having, but i did
not say i was speaking for all of them.

>> I can't possibly believe that you really expect anybody to buy this load
>> of bullshit. The reason that they are thinking internet when they set up
>> ftp is because ftp is an internet protocol. 
>
>   They set up ftp because they are thinking Internet first, not
>thinking internet because they set up ftp. They think internet, then
>think of the way to handle the situation on Internet. Since they are not
>thinking UUCP, they don't think of the UUCP solution. This is not
>bullshit. This is the way it is. 

i assume they in this case is the designers of the internet.

seems to me, that the designers of the internet should have been
concentrating on what needs should be addressed by users (direct users) of
the internet.

>> In solving the the problem of not being able
>> to use FTP from a site not on the internet, it created a whole new set of
>> problems, and hence was not a viable solution. 
>
>   In solving the problem of moving people and products around quickly,
>Henry Ford and Mack and created cars and trucks. Cars and trucks created
>a whole new set of problems, and hence they are not viable solutions.
>The fact that a new system has problems is not proof by itself that that
>system is not viable nor worthwhile.

new?

since when is the internet and USENET new?

>> If a reckless driver smashes into me, I cannot change the
>> fact that my car and perhaps myself will be injured, however I will I try
>> to make damn sure that it is a long time before the other driver gets back
>> on the road.
>
>   And how does that help you prevent the next fellow who runs into you?
>It doesn't. Fixing ONE source of 'abuse' does not fix them all. But you
>DO wear your seatbelt to minimize the damage. Put a seatbelt on your
>uucico and you won't be killed when the mail hits.

Mr. Stanley, please move this to rec.autos, thanx

-- 
[ Jim Mercer   work: jim@lsuc.on.ca  home: merce@iguana.uucp  +1 519 570-3467 ]
[                "Clickity-Click, Barba-Trick" - The Barbapapas               ]
