Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!zazen!uwvax!daffy!rt1.cs.wisc.edu!pochron
From: pochron@rt1.cs.wisc.edu (David Pochron)
Subject: Re: Few questions/observations about the A3000
Message-ID: <1991Apr30.160504.22656@daffy.cs.wisc.edu>
Summary: More 2.0 ROM ramblings/speculations...
Keywords: KS 2.0
Sender: news@daffy.cs.wisc.edu (The News)
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
References: <1991Apr24.214121.4631@javelin.sim.es.com> <1991Apr25.154002.4471@daffy.cs.wisc.edu> <1991Apr26.202103.22105@javelin.sim.es.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 91 16:05:04 GMT

In article <1991Apr26.202103.22105@javelin.sim.es.com> blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com writes:
>How are you getting SetCPU to load KS into 16 bit RAM? 

Simple...Boot the KS from a disk, either from a "kickfile" or a KickStart
disk itself.  It loads it into C00000 memory (which, I know, is slightly
slower than "real" fast 16 bit RAM, but I am taking that into account)  and
as long as you never do a FASTROM when you reboot, it stays there.
Of course, when you have 1 or 2 megs of CHIP RAM and the C00000 stuff doesn't
exist, things could be a bit more tricky.

>You're mistaken here. There are two distinct things giving you the
>speed up. First is the 32 bit wide memory. Second is the 80 nS RAM vs
>the 250 nS ROM. When KS is in RAM you don't have the wait states the ROM

Hmmm, That is interesting.  I thought ROMs were just like static RAM - no
wait states.  Well, if that is the case, then you have enlightened me.


>But 2.0 IS officially released for the A3000. And there are no
>"bootstrap" ROMs in the A3000, those are genuine Kickstart ROMs. A very
>very early beta of 2.0, true, but it is Kickstart 2.000000 that is in
>the ROM that bootstraps KS 2.02 from disk.

I did not know that either.  I thought the ROMs were similar to the ones
found in the A1000's - basic boot up stuff, then get KickStart.

Since you have a 3000 with loads of 32 bit RAM, I guess it doesn't matter
for you that much.  I have a 2000, with a limited amount of 32 bit RAM.
I'd rather have 2.0 on a nice 32 bit ROM image instead, even is some wait
states were present; but that is not *yet* possible with the A2630 card.


>Blaine Gardner @ Evans & Sutherland  580 Arapeen Drive, SLC, Utah 84108
>blgardne@javelin.sim.es.com                               BIX: blaine_g
>DoD #46           My other motorcycle is a Quadracer.            FJ1200



And, Mark D. Hanes writes:

>Now perhaps what you mean is that Commodore may not release to the masses
>a disk based kickstart.  That remains to be seen.  In a way I would like
>to see Commodore do this, and in another way, I would not.

Yes, that is what I mean.  Unless a person is a developer (or a pirate)
you probably won't get a disk based KS.  Just speculation, of course.


>I would like a disk based kicstart released for the A3000, but my fear
>would be that the software manufactures may "wimp" and say our software
>uses 1.3, as it is the most used OS for the Amiga.  

That is why I am making it a point to have 2.0 in ROM.  If something doesn't
work on my machine, I can claim the right to complain to the developer "this
doesn't work and there is no reason why it shouldn't if it is supposed to be
quality software."  At least, thanks to SetCPU, I can drop back to 1.3 if
absolutely necessary.


>I understood the marketing reasons as to why kickstart had to go to ROM
>for the A500/A2000.  In _my_ opinion, one of the things I really missed
>was the flexibility of the kickstart design.  It is too bad the market-
>place is too stupid to appreciate it.

Sorry, I can't buy that.  I have a 1000 downstairs and it is a pain in the
butt to have to load KickStart all the time.  In fact, if I had my way, the
whole system would be in 1 large ROM chip + some non-volatile RAM for
preferences and stuff, and just turn on the computer and have it all there
without ever having to insert a single floppy.

Also please keep my point of view in mind here - I *do not* have a hard drive!
I'd love to have one, but, unless they come down in price to about $150 for
both the controller and mechanism combined, I can't afford one!  So keeping
my bootup as short as possible is CRITICAL.  Leaving the machine on all the
time is not a solution either - that fan is just too noisy!
For us floppy owners, having KS in ROM is the only way to go.  With SetCPU,
I can transfer the image (and use up 512K of my 32 RAM :-( ) as necessary.

I don't see what the big deal about KS on disk is...KS upgrades (for the
general public...I don't have 2.0, do you?)  come no more often as they
come on ROM chip.  It is easier for me to insert a ROM chip into a
socket once than to have to insert a KS floppy all the time.
Even if I had a HD, it is just as easy for me to insert a ROM as it would be
to install a Kickfile on a HD.


> -mark=
>     
> +--------+   ==================================================          
> | \/     |   Mark D. Manes   "Mr. AmigaVision,  The 32 bit guy"
> | /\  \/ |   manes@vger.nsu.edu                                        
> |     /  |   (804) 683-2532    "Make up your own mind! - AMIGA"
> +--------+   ==================================================
                     

-- 

          David M. Pochron   | Transparent DWV pipe:  For the man who wants to
                             |                        see it all...
pochron@garfield.cs.wisc.edu | (If you don't know what DWV is, get a life! :-)
