[HN Gopher] Herdr is joining Y Combinator. The runtime stays open
___________________________________________________________________
Herdr is joining Y Combinator. The runtime stays open
Author : collinmanderson
Score : 243 points
Date : 2026-08-06 19:14 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (herdr.dev)
(TXT) w3m dump (herdr.dev)
| nlh wrote:
| I am a HUGE herdr fan - discovered it a few months ago and it's
| exactly what I need for my workflow. Thousands of others have
| discovered it as well, which is awesome.
|
| I have such mixed feelings about this - YC means VC means
| commercialization means enshitification. I really wish that
| weren't the case, but it so very often is.
|
| Here's hoping this one's different...
|
| (PS I am a big YC fan in general! I don't mean to sound anti-YC
| or anti-VC or anti-capitalism. But when it comes to low-level
| essential development tools, I'll never forget what happened to
| Warp, which started out as such a nice clean terminal project and
| turned into an absolute money-chasing mess.)
| tamimio wrote:
| Yeah, it's great but with this, it's probably the time to find
| an alternative, I probably can see where this will be in a year
| or so.
| pecheny wrote:
| why "find" an alternative? if you're a herdr user you're
| perfectly capable of maintaining a fork just for yourself :)
| sarky-litso wrote:
| I can't tell if this is sarcasm but in case its not, being
| capable of doing something and having the desire and
| resources to do it are not the same thing
| inigyou wrote:
| It's a management tool for multiple superintelligent
| agents, right? Just tell one of them to fork herdr so VC
| can't make it worse on purpose.
| pecheny wrote:
| Not sarcasm at all. I think you might overestimate the
| time and effort needed for this. When you maintain a
| _personal_ fork with no users except yourself, you only
| ever need to change something when you encounter a bug or
| need a new feature.
|
| E.g. I have personal forks of mosh and cmux, each took
| maybe 1 hour of my time total?
|
| I found this article
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49156111 resonating
| with me, except I obviously don't do stuff like "nightly
| cron to sync with main", I just never touch the code
| unless it breaks or I want a new feature.
| lawrencechen wrote:
| Very curious about your cmux fork, any chance you could
| link the repo? (Maker of cmux here :))
| pecheny wrote:
| Oh wow :) thank you for cmux, it's a great project!
|
| The code is here: https://code.pecheny.me/pecheny/cmux or
| if you prefer github, https://github.com/alexander-
| pecheny/cmux
|
| I think I only added two features, pasting images over
| mosh (ssh already worked but not mosh) and a compact
| version of sidebar.
|
| The story behind the fork is: I had a bug with raycast,
| filed a PR that fixed it for me
| https://github.com/manaflow-ai/cmux/pull/2435, a
| different fix made it into next release that for me
| didn't work. Maybe the problem was on my side, but at
| this point it was easier to fork the working version than
| debug further.
| an0malous wrote:
| It's literally the VC playbook, the whole point of the funding
| is to undermine competitors with subsidized/free products and
| then raise prices/enshittify. Anyone who thinks it'll be
| different this time is fooling themselves.
| scubbo wrote:
| > I am a big YC fan in general
|
| Genuine question - why?
| tomhow wrote:
| > YC means VC means commercialization means enshitification
|
| It doesn't have to be that way. YC partners are supportive if
| you just want to take the YC funding and nothing more, keeping
| the team small and just focusing on making the product better
| for customers. Indeed YC advises against taking VC if you don't
| need it.
| abirch wrote:
| Yes there are companies such as Streak. It's possible to pay
| back early funders so it's a win-win.
| Fervicus wrote:
| > Here's hoping this one's different...
|
| It won't be.
| EGreg wrote:
| Wow, congrats! Can you discuss how you got YCombinator to select
| your open source project? I know they sometimes fund open
| source... I've been building several large platforms since 2011
| but I have never considered applying like that.
|
| Would something like this qualify:
|
| https://github.com/Qbix
|
| https://github.com/Intercoin
|
| https://github.com/Safebots/Safecloud
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| the secret sauce is traction
| humblepie wrote:
| Okay, back to tmux it is then.
| lrvick wrote:
| I am going to be PRing herdr to stagex as it is my daily
| driver. This will give it a totally independent release process
| with multiple parties bootstrapping, reproducing, and signing
| deterministic binaries for it alongside our tmux releases.
|
| We (the stagex team) will naturally patch out any corpo
| tracking bullshit that may or may not happen in the future, and
| follow the dominant community fork should it be needed, as we
| did with terraform -> opentofu.
|
| As long as herdr does not enshittify though, we will be happy
| to provide very high supply chain integrity releases for it as-
| is starting with probably next months stagex release.
|
| Absolutely no problem with FOSS developers finding revenue
| streams to give themselves more resources to make their
| projects better.
|
| My own company is 100% FOSS with nothing held back and will
| stay that way, even though we are in the current YC batch with
| more customers signing every week. Admittedly this is atypical,
| but it can be done.
| dgunay wrote:
| Over the last year I ended up duct taping a lot of
| functionality onto tmux to get what these new age multiplexers
| set out to do (session launch, live agent status, etc). And it
| works, but it definitely feels like duct tape.
|
| I'm not sure the tmux project wants to evolve to support this
| natively so for now herdr seems like one of the best open and
| forkable options available. Considering how little I've had to
| really touch my tmux setup after getting it going I don't think
| it's necessarily the worst thing in the world if the FOSS
| community maintains a deshittified fork of herdr, should it
| come to that.
| natsucks wrote:
| I've been wondering what the point of a lot of these new
| multiplexer projects are when tmux is so extensible. I'd be
| curious to see eactly what you've done. Care to share a tmux
| config?
| dgunay wrote:
| It's less the tmux config and more the scripting around it.
|
| (shameless plug: I launch agents in tmux directly into
| docker containers with remuda, a tool I built at work &
| open sourced [0])
|
| Anyway, I have a vibe coded script that shows me this
| overview for each of the agents I launch in tmux (hope this
| doesn't turn out mangled): +-------+-------
| ----+------------+-------------+---------------------------
| --------------------+ | AGENT | PR | REPO
| | BRANCH | ISSUE
| | +-------+-----------+------------+-------------+---
| --------------------------------------------+ | ready
| | draft | <redacted> | branch1 | Fix data race in e2e
| mock AssertExpectations | | ready | |
| <redacted> | branch2 | Modernize such and such
| | | ready | open | <redacted> | branch3 |
| JIRA-123: some sprint work | +----
| ---+-----------+------------+-------------+----------------
| -------------------------------+
|
| The agent status column (ready/working/etc) is just using
| heuristics from the terminal title (since a lot of
| harnesses have the live status in the title) or tmux
| capture-pane
|
| The rest of the fields are either the gh cli or from beads,
| detected from the branch name (using
| https://github.com/Dicklesworthstone/beads_rust).
|
| My session switcher is cool (shows the session name and the
| issue title + a preview of the issue details) but
| ultimately also along those lines; tmux itself doesn't do a
| whole lot, it's just being extensible and letting me run an
| fzf pipeline enriched with data from beads.
|
| This works great for me personally but the part that
| actually pulls data out of the agent sessions is built on
| heuristics, and I didn't even attempt to get notifications
| out of it, I just side channel those out using peon-ping[1]
|
| [0]: https://github.com/yendo-eng/remuda [1]:
| https://github.com/PeonPing/peon-ping
| natsucks wrote:
| very cool. thanks!
| chrysoprace wrote:
| I started noticing problems with MCP auth state failing inside
| herdr, but working in a normal terminal session or with tmux,
| so I switched back to using tmux and it's been flawless. I also
| noticed that herdr was causing errors/warnings in ordinary
| terminal sessions so it's more trouble than it's worth at the
| moment (at least for me). It's a shame though, since I
| otherwise think it's a good tool.
| haykot wrote:
| I built hive that's similar to herdr but sits beside tmux
| instead. It provides a nice status UI on top of tmux instead of
| building the multiplexer. It also has a bunch of other
| utilities for working with agents like a message bus and task
| management framework.
|
| https://github.com/colonyops/hive
| SierraJC wrote:
| Give it a whirl with Workmux! I moved from Herdr to Workmux +
| Tmux about a month ago and am enjoying it. Significantly more
| flexibility.
| qudat wrote:
| Try https://zmx.sh for a more minimalist tool
| ValentineC wrote:
| > _That's why I recently switched it from AGPL to Apache: I want
| everyone to use Herdr freely, without any problem._
|
| I'm curious what the actual problems with AGPL were.
| rajangdavis wrote:
| Can't make money if people use your tool and are required to
| share their source code
| spudlyo wrote:
| Radix enim omnium malorum est cupiditas. Enshitification is
| sure to follow in one guise or another.
| rajangdavis wrote:
| I don't know that this qualifies as enshitification... on
| one hand, the author created something that scratched his
| own itch, shared it, and now it's become a tool that he
| wishes to steward into a way where he can make money.
|
| I don't know that these are terrible things inherently, it
| kind of depends if he wishes to extract as money as
| possible from his users by any means necessary or if he's
| truly trying to scale it so it can help people. All we have
| is this article and infinite speculation.
|
| I personally didn't find herdr useful, so I have no stake
| in the direction of what the author decides to do with
| herdr.
| spudlyo wrote:
| In my cynical view, herder now seems to be an attempt to
| commercialize tmux by adding superficial polish. I am
| wary of VC backed developer tools that seek to innovate
| in well established open source niches. Herdr by default
| is mouse focused, has very friendly UI interactions, and
| has some niche UI support for agents running in panes.
| Great. Now it also has a profit motive and ROI pressures.
| I don't see this ending well.
| inigyou wrote:
| If he wants to make money he needs to _sell licenses_ ,
| not give them away for free. To that end, making the free
| version AGPL is generally a good move. It ensures people
| can get hooked on your product and when they start
| working at corporations they have to pay to keep using
| it.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| Enshitification is 100% guaranteed with any vc backing.
| Maybe not now, but definitely in the future it is the
| literal point of venture capital. Gain adoption, then
| exploit to the maximum extent possible.
|
| It's fine to use these kind of tools, just don't get too
| attached and be ready for the rug pull.
| 6P58r3MXJSLi wrote:
| You can totally make money if people use your tool
|
| It's companies using your tool that don't want to give back
| to the people
| koiueo wrote:
| No money from investors
| tyre wrote:
| The copyleft licenses are toxic for adoption. Companies default
| away from them because there are a lot of murky unknowns (e.g.
| if you run a copyleft service and connect to it via API, is
| that extending it? Does that service's source have to be
| shared?) that simply aren't worth the hassle.
|
| If you want your library to get traction with many real world
| use cases, you need to have a permissive license. If you want
| to stick to the principles, you're going to sacrifice adoption.
|
| Not saying one is better than the other, but there's a
| tradeoff.
| guywithahat wrote:
| I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, you're right. Using
| software that has requires people to contribute back is a
| huge liability, and hurts adoption, which is the most
| important metric for herdr right now.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Seems like the path is to use LLMs to launder code from VC
| funded efforts and their public codebases into codebases
| with a copyleft license. Otherwise you have to wait for the
| rug pull before taking action (Terraform and
| Vault->OpenTofu and OpenBao). It is fair use to train and
| create derivative works after all, as courts have ruled so
| far.
| inigyou wrote:
| You can just take someone else's permissively licensed
| code and relicense it AGPL, or even proprietary if you
| want to. Corporations want it proprietary but the same
| trick works for copyleft.
|
| For bonus points make sure your fork has better SEO than
| the original, so when someone who heard it's permissive
| embeds it in a proprietary product, you can sue them.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Was assuming worse case scenario from a licensing
| compatibility and copyright perspective.
| inigyou wrote:
| They're right, but they're presenting it in a way as if the
| toxicity of AGPL is the actual truth, and not just the
| opinion of greedy corporations.
|
| Being toxic to greedy corporations but beneficial to
| everyone else is the _point_ of the GPL licenses.
| icantevenhold wrote:
| But it's not only toxic to the greedy corporations but
| all the others as well, hence
| inigyou wrote:
| How so? You might be thinking of SSPL.
| a2ff6eeb0 wrote:
| Why is it toxic for me to need to push my code to a git
| repo if I start using it in my services, if I'm not
| trying to act as a for-profit corporation?
| jraph wrote:
| You can totally make profits by selling services based on
| AGPL code btw, it's completely fine. As long as you
| redistribute your derivative work as AGPL too.
|
| There's nothing toxic in the AGPL for you as long as you
| don't want to make that code proprietary (even without
| making profits)
| inigyou wrote:
| AGPL says nothing about pushing code to repos.
| jraph wrote:
| No. There's no restriction of usage in the (A)GPL.
| Anyone, including big corps, can use AGPL software.
| Preventing them to use the software is _not_ the point
| neither. The point is trying to ensure end user freedom.
|
| They just choose avoid agpl software. Their loss.
| Unfortunately they also spread FUD on this and many
| commenters here happily convey it.
| outofpaper wrote:
| AGREED! Its sheer insanity to call the AGPL toxic. The
| license is actually quite simple if a little wordy. They
| should have accompanied it with a preamble that was super
| clear and to the point.So here it is in our 170 words for
| you to read, share, and use:
|
| Copyright (c) [year] [copyright holders]
|
| Permission is hereby granted to any person obtaining a
| copy of this software and associated documentation files,
| to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute,
| sublicense, and sell copies of the software, including
| for commercial purposes, subject to the following
| conditions:
|
| If you distribute this software, or any work derived from
| it, you must release the complete source code under this
| same licence. If you modify this software and users
| interact with your version over a network -- as a web
| application, an API, or a hosted service -- you must
| offer those users the complete source code of your
| version, at no charge. All copies must include this
| copyright notice and this licence. You may not impose
| additional licence restrictions beyond this.
|
| These permissions are irrevocable and royalty-free for
| the term of copyright. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS,"
| WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. This is a plain-language
| summary. The full legal text of the GNU Affero General
| Public License, version 3, governs all use for you.
|
| Same rights. Same freedoms only a little more opiniated
| delivery. Same business card. The only difference: when
| someone takes your code, tweakes it and builds a service
| on it, the tweaks, the improvements must come back.
| inigyou wrote:
| Did an AI write this? By all means get an AI to summarise
| a license but the summary doesn't substitute for the
| license.
| croes wrote:
| > Using software that has requires people to contribute
| back is a huge liability, and hurts adoption,
|
| In other words, not being a parasite is stressful.
|
| Cruel world where I'm not allowed to just take, take, take
| tlamponi wrote:
| > if you run a copyleft service and connect to it via API, is
| that extending it
|
| No, it isn't; a client talking to an AGPLv3 service over a
| network API stays a separate program and is not touched by
| the license at all. Section 13 places obligations solely on
| whoever runs a modified version of the service, while remote
| users, API clients included, only gain the right to receive
| that service's source. So nothing on the client side must
| suddenly become AGPLv3, and the only thing that ever has to
| be shared is the AGPL'd program itself, not anything across
| the API boundary. The first half of your post is basically
| unfounded FUD; the second half tracks.
| mbreese wrote:
| You may think this. I may think this. But what really
| matters is if the lawyers for your customers think this. It
| may be pure FUD, but AGPL projects have a tough time
| getting adoption in companies because they would rather
| avoid the problem than be wrong.
| waterproof wrote:
| This is true, unfortunately. I've have had to walk away
| from a client because their software-illiterate lawyer
| didn't want me to build with copyleft dependencies.
|
| It wasn't the only red flag in this case, but frustrating
| nonetheless.
| Tepix wrote:
| The license is clear. Your post merely adds to the FUD.
| inigyou wrote:
| If they're _customers_ , just sell them the license they
| want.
| p_l wrote:
| That's the real problem with AGPL, IMO - it encourages
| copyright assignment to a corporate entity so it can
| launder it through dual-licensing
| tlamponi wrote:
| We have been running a business on exactly the opposite
| premise for over 20 years, and we're not really seeing
| that problem with the adoption of Proxmox VE or our other
| (AGPLv3) FLOSS projects that we provide commercial
| enterprise support for. Very rarely, a potential customer
| doing extra due diligence, and not yet used to working
| with FLOSS much, wonders about exactly this - which is
| also the main reason I bothered writing anything here, as
| spreading such FUD further only hurts everyone involved.
| In those cases, a simple reply that a) this makes no
| sense (more on that below) and b) an assurance in writing
| that none of their software running on top of, or
| interfacing with, any of our APIs has to be relicensed
| settles it. That assurance is technically useless, as it
| doesn't grant them anything extra, but it costs us
| nothing either.
|
| And the reason it makes no sense is that by your logic,
| any tool that can consume some (e.g. HTTP-based REST) API
| would have to be open-sourced the moment I get it to
| fetch data from my AGPLv3 service. No offense meant at
| all, but that would simply be bizarro world, and there is
| enough precedent against it. If APIs did not act as clear
| boundaries, AGPLv3 software would indeed spread to
| everything it touches or traverses, like an epidemic. If
| yours or your customers' lawyers claim otherwise,
| you/they should get ones with an actual understanding of
| software and IP law.
| inigyou wrote:
| [flagged]
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| FUD, can't take investment when your project actually enforces
| user freedom.
| dominotw wrote:
| wtf is "runtime"
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| What does stays open mean
| fwip wrote:
| It means the headline was vomited out by an LLM.
| inigyou wrote:
| It's a tool for managing 20 LLM agents at the same time
| isn't it? They know their audience loves this slop.
| rvz wrote:
| Quick question: Would you have actually donated to Herdr if they
| were asking for donations? I don't think any of you would have,
| unless stated otherwise.
|
| So this is another reason why developers do not pay for their
| tools and instead the developers of these tools go to VCs anyway.
| It's not the fault of the author, but most of the users
| (developers themselves) _always_ want their tools for free at $0.
|
| You have to pay and support the tools you use or else the VCs
| will do it for you so you can't complain when scenarios like this
| keep happening.
| applfanboysbgon wrote:
| Yep. It's funny how much open source maximalists harm their own
| cause. Everything must be "free", ergo everything must be VC or
| big tech backed because free doesn't put bread on the table, so
| in the end devs just put more power in the hands of
| corporations and less power in the hands of themselves and
| other independent devs/small businesses, and then have the gall
| to complain when everything gets enshittified.
| hx8 wrote:
| I don't love this framing among software developers. This
| framing is very transactional, when many of the authors are
| explicitly trying to make their work free. The best thing a
| software dev can do is donate some of their time to do more
| open source development, and in that way we all benefit from
| having more and better open source tools. If someone wants to
| exchange code for money there are plenty of avenues to do that.
| Starting an open source project and using it to attract VC
| funding is one path.
| rvz wrote:
| > I don't love this framing among software developers. This
| framing is very transactional, when many of the authors are
| explicitly trying to make their work free.
|
| This software _was_ "free" (as in libre) and costed $0 and
| until now, it was licensed under AGPL 3. But contrary to one
| common misbelief in open source and free software, the
| maintenance is not free at all.
|
| > The best thing a software dev can do is donate some of
| their time to do more open source development, and in that
| way we all benefit from having more and better open source
| tools. If someone wants to exchange code for money there are
| plenty of avenues to do that.
|
| In the case of this project which took off, why would you
| expect the maintainer to work on the project for free?
| bigyabai wrote:
| Are you lamenting the death of proprietary UNIX and paid
| compilers, too? This status quo is fine.
| rvz wrote:
| > Are you lamenting the death of proprietary UNIX and paid
| compilers, too?
|
| You are straw-manning a point no-one made. Herdr is open
| source and if the users would like to see it maintained for a
| long time, they would donate $$$. Clearly the donations were
| no-where enough and raising money was.
|
| The point is maintaining open source projects for free is NOT
| sustainable and most HNers in this thread clearly struggle
| with not understanding that.
|
| > This status quo is fine.
|
| Seems like you would want him to work for free, then wait
| until the author becomes demotivated and then he abandons the
| project entirely and we'll see a new post about why Herdr got
| abandoned.
| bigyabai wrote:
| > if the users would like to see it maintained for a long
| time, they would donate $$$.
|
| That's a bad-faith dilemma, you know it. The users can want
| to see it maintained without necessarily having the money,
| userbase or motivation to sponsor the lead dev. It's not
| criminal to have a tight pocketbook, and that's why free
| devtools succeed while paid ones rot. There will be always
| be a FOSS version of Herdr, and thanks to vibe coding it
| will probably retain feature parity with the paid version.
|
| Everyone is happier with this arrangement, you're one of
| the only ones fulminating at the outcome.
|
| > Seems like you would want him to work for free
|
| Clearly he's content releasing the software for free. Let
| me guess, you're going to complain that the free market
| "forced" him to work without pay?
| rvz wrote:
| > That's a bad-faith dilemma, you know it.
|
| No it isn't, it is the reality. It's perfectly fine for
| you to say you don't pay for your tools, but don't be
| surprised to see them funded by VCs instead of donations
| from multiple backers if it is useful enough.
|
| > The users can want to see it maintained without
| necessarily having the money, userbase or motivation to
| sponsor the lead dev. It's not criminal to have a tight
| pocketbook, and that's why free devtools succeed while
| paid ones rot. There will be always be a FOSS version of
| Herdr, and thanks to vibe coding it will probably retain
| feature parity with the paid version.
|
| You understand _both_ can rot without enough donations /
| backers? There are _free_ (as in libre) software that has
| tens or hundreds of backers (Mastodon, ffmpeg, curl, OBS
| and Blender) and they are not VC backed.
|
| Even when there is a FLOSS version of Herdr, it will run
| into the same funding issues (Herdr was FLOSS software).
| What we _do_ know is that open source maintainers do not
| get paid enough for maintaining their projects [0] [1].
|
| So the smaller but useful popular projects usually
| running on less backers, are more likely to spin-off and
| turn to VC funding anyway.
|
| > Everyone is happier with this arrangement, you're one
| of the only ones fulminating at the outcome.
|
| Except for the lead developer / maintainer.
|
| > Clearly he's content releasing the software for free.
| Let me guess, you're going to complain that the free
| market "forced" him to work without pay?
|
| You seem to be still confused with was was "free" here.
| He already released the software as libre software, but
| it is the _maintenance of the software_ that is _never_
| free. There are already examples of FLOSS software that
| has hundreds of backers, even when it is released for $0.
|
| Again, another thing HNers don't seem to understand or
| care about.
|
| [1] https://www.sonarsource.com/open-source-maintainer-
| survey-20...
|
| [0] https://assets-eu-01.kc-
| usercontent.com/ef593040-b591-0198-9...
| rovr138 wrote:
| I actually donate to a bunch of tools I use.
| LikeAnElephant wrote:
| When I moved to herdr I specifically looked for a donate /
| purchase button on their website and it wasn't anywhere to be
| found (at least in a prominent location).
|
| I gladly donate / pay subscriptions to software I use
| regularly... but the company has a responsibility to make it
| obvious on how to do so
| hx8 wrote:
| I switched from tmux to Herdr about six weeks ago. It's a great
| bit of software, the UI is focused on switching between multiple
| agents quickly. I run Herdr to keep my opencode instances well
| managed, and it also works great for having a few terminals opens
| next to your agent. I find myself keeping opencode sessions open
| for longer like what happens with Codex and Claude code, which is
| great if I need to revisit a context to do some follow up work.
| I'm genuinely excited to see if the creators can bring even more
| value to the application.
|
| If you're worried about enshittification I wouldn't be. It's
| relatively basic open source software that runs locally. A
| perfect candidate for a fork if the base app starts degrading.
| apt-apt-apt-apt wrote:
| Honestly, how are you guys running multiple agents, presumably
| with them all writing code?
|
| I find myself to be a huge bottleneck, having to do technical
| design and design reviews, to make sure they're actually
| working on the right things.
|
| I feel like there's not enough coding work to justify multiple
| agents, that part doesn't take long, and then it's back to
| design again.
| frumiousirc wrote:
| > I find myself to be a huge bottleneck, having to do
| technical design and design reviews, to make sure they're
| actually working on the right things.
|
| I find this depends on the LLMs being used and the person
| using them and the problems being solved.
|
| Like, Fable can be sent off to do some big thing for a long
| while and I find myself getting bored and move over to push
| on some other thing. Or, while reading a paper I have a
| string of follow up questions and ideas and launch them via
| web or CLI agent. Or I bounce between multiple chores in
| different packages, each of which is fast for an LLM and a
| low cognitive burden for me. Then other times, something
| needs my full, ongoing and serial attention where the LLM
| turn is only a minor element. I'll use the brief LLM
| interludes to get up, walk around a bit, stretch and think.
|
| As for Herdr, it seems nice when I tried it a few weeks ago.
| But, I'm surprised it is getting so much attention (kudos).
| Like many people, I've developed more than one work-alike
| before Herdr hit the scene. They were based on tmux which I
| have concluded I simply detest. In the end, I made a little
| agent hook script that speaks to Kitty terminal and that plus
| Kitty and a stable SSH persistent connection gives 80% of
| what I was looking for. I do still like the "control panel"
| aspect of my past and herdr's tries. Adding that would get me
| another 10%.
| bitmasher9 wrote:
| > presumably with them all writing code?
|
| Not always. In fact, I use multiple agents when writing my
| technical design docs and giving feedback to design reviews.
|
| The amount of time I spend writing a design doc and the
| amount of details I can include in the paper is greatly
| improved.
|
| Ask it questions about your code base, such as if all of your
| data base indexes are being utilized or if you can remove
| them.
|
| Ask it questions about logs, like how many api calls are made
| to a serve every day.
|
| Ask it questions about your environment, like how robust your
| downstream is.
| mickaelkerjean wrote:
| What made you prefer it to tmux? Looking at their demo, they
| put a lot of emphasis on the workspace like feature which tmux
| already got with sessions. Not sure what is the point of all
| those new tui runtime, tried a few but always got back to tmux,
| what am I missing?
| exitb wrote:
| What you're missing is the status updates. Herdr applies
| pattern recognition to detect the status of an agent running
| inside, so you get updates on all your agent threads at a
| glance.
| bitmasher9 wrote:
| Status updates aren't a big deal when running cheap&fast
| models, but are a big deal once you start making asks that
| take 5min+.
| asadm wrote:
| I am guessing this now directly competes with mitchellh's
| multiplexer / Superlogical.
| SJMG wrote:
| I just wouldn't bet against Mitchell. He doesn't need the
| money. He does it for the love of it.
| trymas wrote:
| Though what I genuinely don't understand is, why then Mitchel
| needs funding? If he needs funding - why accept it from weird
| contraversial figures?
|
| He has the freedom of choice, like no other.
| nlitened wrote:
| What are some examples of uncontroversial figures who would
| be willing to offer funding, in your opinion?
| trymas wrote:
| Why not Mitchel himself? Without anyone else.
|
| Seeding superlogical wouldn't make a dent to his "10
| digit bank account". Probably not much more expensive
| than airplane hobby.
| kar1181 wrote:
| Oh man - herdr is great. This will not be net good. Sigh.
| tyleo wrote:
| Tbh it doesn't bother me entirely. I love this tool so much I'd
| pay for it.
|
| VC funding can enshitify things but it can also improve them.
| Here's hoping for the latter.
| user- wrote:
| Congrats to Can! I am using Herdr and i think its a great tool. A
| modern solo dev success story , very inspirational.
|
| I see some negative comments here that I could understand why
| funding scares them when it comes to their open source tool but
| like.. atleast congratulate the guy.
| Johnny_Bonk wrote:
| Yeah I was using cmux but it was Mac only and now I run herdr
| on my wsl and tunnel in from Mac and it's awesome that it just
| mirrors everything. I like it and congrats to the founder
| ahmadyan wrote:
| Congrats to Can on the pre-seed funding. genuinely wishing you
| all the best.
|
| The terminal multiplexer / multi-agent coding space is getting
| very crowded. YC alone has funded many competing startups in this
| space: herdr, Superset, cmux, Emdash, Orca, Bullet, Conductor
| (Conductor was in YC before pivoting from chat->coding). I'm
| probably missing a few, and that's before counting companies
| outside YC such as Superlogical and Agentastic.dev (by yours
| truly).
|
| One thing I find particularly interesting is the role of open
| source in this market.
|
| A lot of these products started open source (i assume as a
| tactical way to gain traction and build a community). But after
| the early traction phase or raise funding, the incentives seem to
| change.
|
| Being open source by itself is not a product differentiator in
| this market. The features required for string positioning
| (orchestration, cloud, custom agents, enterprise features, hosted
| infrastructure, etc.) often end up either closed source or
| available only through the hosted product.
|
| That makes me wonder how much developers actually value OSS for
| this category. How much does it matter to you whether your IDE or
| coding environment is open source?
|
| Is OSS important because you want to inspect the code, fork it,
| self-host it, avoid vendor lock-in, or simply because you trust
| open-source developer tools more? Or, for desktop software like
| IDEs is open source mostly a nice-to-have rather than a
| requirement? So I'm curious where HN lands on this
| conartist6 wrote:
| There exist also competitors not funded by YC, like me. I won't
| be on any of the lists because I'm not courting agents, I'm
| courting humans.
|
| For me OSS is a weapon to be wielded. By making _perfect_
| software that cannot be improved upon, and making known my
| ownership of it, I 'm am defending "embrace extend extinguish"
| attacks that would otherwise be damaging to me. Those attacks
| rely on being able to undercut a product's position in the
| market with a similarly positioned product that can be just
| slightly better and/or cheaper.
| sharts wrote:
| Indeed and once the funding comes in with more chefs in the
| kitchen the startups start losing touch and focus on funneling
| users to a platform instead of just improving the core product.
| giodamelio wrote:
| It's super important to me. I use Herdr every day and I
| maintain a whole stack of changes. From minor comfort tweaks
| that are just preference, to several larger changes like add jj
| workspace support and a WIP web based view (powered by
| xterm.js).
|
| This is not the only project like this too. Many of my devtools
| are piling up changes. I try to upstream changes where it makes
| sense, but many times they are either very bespoke, or I can't
| be bothered to do them "right" (for example for the jj
| workspace change, I just ripped out git support, so I didn't
| have to futz with syncing the symantics up between the two and
| config and whatnot).
|
| LLMs have made making personal changes to devtools so
| effortless that I am now extremely hesitant to use any non
| source available software at all.
|
| I have been thinking about a possibly expanded market for
| source available software. I don't really care what the license
| of the software is, I'm not sharing it at all or using it
| commercially, so it's kinda a moot point. If someone made some
| amazing software and sold the source I'd definitely consider
| it. I know there are all sorts of practical business problems
| with that, but that aside I'm curious if others feel the same?
| skinfaxi wrote:
| > LLMs have made making personal changes to devtools so
| effortless that I am now extremely hesitant to use any non
| source available software at all
|
| This mirrors my view so totally it's crazy. If AI is ushering
| in the era of personal tooling, closing the harness is
| orthogonal to what users want.
| vidarh wrote:
| I also don't think closed source is going to work for any
| software where you can't aggressively prevent the user from
| introspecting a large chunk of the software, because it's
| so easy to point an agent at the tool and tell it to copy
| the functionality you actually care about and/or wrap it.
| NoDodgeQuestion wrote:
| that is not what orthogonal means
| skinfaxi wrote:
| THanks! English is not my first language.
| anaisbetts wrote:
| "closing the harness is antiparallel to what users want."
| soulbadguy wrote:
| > like add jj workspace support
|
| care to share a pr :)
| giodamelio wrote:
| It's not anywhere near making PR ready (and never will be)
| but here is the branch [1]. I make no promises on it's
| functionality, and I only periodically rebase Herdr's
| latest over it. I have been using the jj change for awhile
| though with no issues. So YMMV.
|
| You can also see the combined output of all my changes at
| [2], which Jujutsu makes so damn easy via megamerges.
|
| 1: https://github.com/giodamelio/herdr/tree/jj-workspace-
| migrat...
|
| 2: https://github.com/giodamelio/herdr/tree/combined-branch
| ahmadyan wrote:
| i see your point, in that light what herdr is doing here make
| sense. keep some part open (e.g. runtime or whatever that
| means, or the front-end, or the user-facing logic, etc) and
| move the business-logic/etc to proprietary. So you get to
| customize the software to meet your needs, and at the same
| time to create some revenue incentive to grow the company.
|
| alternative is to collect/sell usage data, which is icky, or
| provide something as a service (token usage, infra, plugins,
| etc)
| giodamelio wrote:
| Ya, I'm not sure even that would be enough though to be
| honest.
|
| I am kinda imagining a structure for a theoretical dev
| tooling business that might be OSS Core, and Source
| Available additional features. I'm not sure if there is a
| generally accepted definition of Source Available, but I
| don't necessarily mean that the source is just out in
| public on the web. It could be sent to you when you
| purchase the product, and could maybe even be sold on an
| upgrade sort of model, where you pay again for the next
| "big version" of the software, like the good old days of
| desktop software.
| foltik wrote:
| I avoid closed source software because it's often a pain to use
| on Linux.
| miki123211 wrote:
| In practice, I suspect the entire category will be folded into
| Claude Code and Codex (Anthropic is already trying with Claude
| Agents), and that will do 80% of the job at 0% of the cost and
| configuration effort.
|
| External programs will still be useful for the tiny minority
| who wants different harnesses for different projects, but yeah,
| tiny minority.
| ahmadyan wrote:
| in my experience, tools usually have a longer shelf-life than
| models/labs. e.g. terminals and IDEs have been around for
| much longer, and people tend to stick around with their
| preferred IDEs for much longer (years/decades).
|
| One bad cycle and the next Opus 6 or GPT 7 might flop (think
| what happend to LLama4 or Gemini), and the user quickly
| switch to the next best thing. So it make sense to build your
| tooling to be model-agnostic.
| 2001zhaozhao wrote:
| In the case of my WIP Agent IDE, OSS is mandatory because the
| tool needs to be able to read its own source to _improve
| itself_.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| frankly with the level of complexity of IDEs, I just need a
| working product. In my mind it is closer to "photoshop" now
| than vim. I would probably pay for VSCode. I can't believe its
| free.
| ahmadyan wrote:
| well, visual studio isn't free. Code is free, and at some
| point it got so good that folks didn't feel the need to pay
| for the main suite.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| well thats on point for microsoft branding
| devin wrote:
| They will all fail unless they're acquired, which is its own
| kind of failure.
| bgnm2000 wrote:
| I'm the founder of scape.work - and it's precisely why we're
| not free, not open source. I want to build something with a
| mission of helping people own their infrastructure around AI
| tooling locally. If I raise money I am legally bound to my
| shareholders to create value, as opposed to my customers and my
| mission. Bootstrapping has never made more sense, when code is
| so cheap.
| devmor wrote:
| For me, Open Source is extremely important because the tools
| are rapidly changing, and for reasons unrelated to my
| productivity. I use Copilot CLI at work, but now have a daemon
| that monitors it for updates and monkeypatches in my own custom
| hook framework.
|
| This came about after 3 separate incidents where I went to use
| the harness and found it now provided a degraded experience
| because Microsoft unanimously decided to change some part of it
| without my consent.
|
| I am a staunch believer that the most important thing a tool
| can do, other than its job, is provide a static experience
| until the user opts to change it. I use AI like a tool, because
| it is. I need it to behave the way I expect, or it's not
| actually useful to me.
| dbbk wrote:
| There is no business model here. This is a terrible outcome.
| athrowaway3z wrote:
| > Is OSS important because you want to inspect the code, fork
| it, self-host it, avoid vendor lock-in, or simply because you
| trust open-source developer tools more? Or, for desktop
| software like IDEs is open source mostly a nice-to-have rather
| than a requirement? So I'm curious where HN lands on this
|
| I frankly do not understand the question, and it reads like one
| you'd find in a survey written by somebody who does not
| understand the question themselves.
|
| I do not need to preach to the choir, so I will use an awkward
| analogy for the people treating this like a survey:
|
| OSS is like cash, and closed source is investing in PE (and in
| this case historically very underwhelming returns).
|
| Cash gives opportunity in every dimension you mention,
| including the option to jump into a PE. There is no need to
| worry or monitor its value beyond depreciation.
|
| OSS provides me every opportunity I want, at no recurring
| overhead costs, and only drawing on my attention when I want
| it.
|
| Beyond that: buying into an ecosystem has a network-effect
| value, and the ability for any 1 person to add value to the
| ecosystem is dependent by how easy it is to add value to it -
| and here OSS has some natural pros.
|
| But i do not think these things matter. These are
| considerations for people looking to build near the edge of
| whats possible, and those are a niche. If you're looking for
| what you can sell, for any problem there are several orders of
| magnitude more people that dont know whats already possible and
| just want things made 'easy'.
| Aeolun wrote:
| It doesn't matter to me because all the stuff I use now is open
| source built by me. Whether or not it goes closed source is
| entirely up to me.
|
| I am however quite annoyed by these "open source until it gets
| popular enough" schemes. But then again, it's never happened to
| me.
| kristjansson wrote:
| As a relatively recent herdr user, I'll say (1) congratulations
| and (2) the thing that was most attractive was the seeming
| orthogonality of the tool. It sits apart, interfaces with
| subordinate programs in a few clearly delineated ways, and
| integrates them only as much as the user desires. Critically, "no
| integration just show me the terminal output of my program" is an
| option, and a useful one!
|
| I appreciate that discipline and respect for your user in the
| current tool, and hope to be a paying customer of a similarly
| values-aligned business you'll build on top of it!
| vehemenz wrote:
| I've been using Herdr for a while now, but I'd like a multiplexer
| that's also a meta-harness that I can connect to remotely. I know
| others have setups that work, I just haven't quite figured it out
| yet.
| asadm wrote:
| i just ssh to my machine (from phone etc) and run `herdr` to
| resume.
| threecheese wrote:
| Moshi has an integration with Herdr; you can connect to your
| herdr sessions over mosh, your touches register as mouse clicks
| in the UI (which is minimally rendered above the shell), and
| there's a shortcut bar which can issue herdr-keymapped
| commands.
|
| It's not open source, and costs a few bucks, but it works well
| and has live Claude/Codex/etc notifications if you are willing
| to install a hook daemon on your hosts with homebrew. I was
| looking for batteries-included "code from my iPhone" after
| trying a bunch of self-hosted stuff, now I connect to my Macs
| over Tailscale and get dropped right into multiplexer sessions
| with rich status notifications.
|
| https://getmoshi.app/
| bardsore wrote:
| I tried Moshi. Some things I did not like - Despite the name,
| using mosh is a paid feature - It was not clear what is and
| isn't a paid feature when using the app for the first time
| (after selecting which server to connect to, when you select
| which terminal/chat to connect to there's initially a counter
| that says 20/20 which decreases every time you connect) - If
| you pair your phone to the server for push notifications a
| bunch of info regarding the chat is sent to their servers to
| produce the push (naturally), this makes it unsuitable for me
| at my job at least. IMO it would be sufficient to just get a
| "Agent needs your attention" push.
|
| All in all, I did not find it worth it compared to using mosh
| or SSH in Termux. I have a colleague who loves Moshi though,
| for him its perfect. Among other things he likes the
| dictation.
| durdn wrote:
| My same line of thinking and apparently of several others,
| turns out herdr has a plug-in for this:
| https://github.com/nikok6/herdr-mirror which is close to what I
| need.
| kkapelon wrote:
| Simplest setup would be just plain ssh/mosh. Nothing more
| exotic.
|
| I have seen moshi.app but haven't tested it yet.
| Gooblebrai wrote:
| I thought the A2A protocol from Google would solve this of our
| personal agents speaking with company agents
| htrp wrote:
| 90% certain A2A is dead....
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I haven't seen one of those classic Herdr/Herdly tech names in a
| while now.
| foxtrot8672 wrote:
| could just host it on the cloud?
| lonesword wrote:
| Congratulations! I came across herdr a few weeks ago and I've
| been daily driving it ever since. I've tried a few other tools
| like Emdash and Superset but Herdr is the only one that did a
| decent job rendering Claude code UI and didn't randomly crash and
| could run on a remote server.
| ernsheong wrote:
| Ironically a lot of YC hate despite the fact that we are
| literally in their forum.
| xyzsparetimexyz wrote:
| Like the articles, hate the influence of VC on open source.
| Even if it stays open it still gets ruined. See Bun for an
| example.
| rwz wrote:
| I don't see how Bun is "ruined". In fact, I personally see
| Bun as example of the opposite -- Rust rewrite seems like a
| huge success across the board.
|
| I'm personally using the 1.4 canary (the rust rewrite
| version) and definitely plan on continuing using it in my
| future projects.
| loveparade wrote:
| I don't think it's about YC specifically, more about VC-driven
| enshittification of open source software in general.
| jdorfman wrote:
| Congrats Can. Love your product, it has become the default way to
| orchestrate agents in my terminal.
| loveparade wrote:
| Oh no, I was using it. What's a good replacement? Guess I'll go
| back to tmux.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| I'm a fan of zellij
| Taek wrote:
| This title is killing me. "The runtime stays open" is such a
| heavy, attention grabbing sentence, it's all I can stare at on
| the front page. It's the type of writing that makes me hate
| working with LLMs, because it's so powerful at monopolizing my
| attention, and makes it difficult for me to focus on any of the
| other words on the page (whether the front page, or the comments
| page).
| moomoo11 wrote:
| it's ok Claude we can see you
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| You should read the Herdr front page. Is so full of AIism it
| hurts my head.
| joegibbs wrote:
| "The noun verbs." is such an incredibly Claudeish sentence. The
| other models don't do that stuff. I'd say it's actually biggest
| tell for Claude writing.
| behole wrote:
| Congrats on momentum! Well earned. Love Herdr.
| abofh wrote:
| You've joined an accelerator, not gone public, of course you're
| not ready to rug pull
| DonHopkins wrote:
| If they just stayed opn they could reinvest the penultimate e in
| calling themselves Herder.
| phrmendes wrote:
| Thanks god I didn't replace tmux
| smagnuso wrote:
| I thought I'd share that hydra recently added support for herdr
| directly. It is an agent multiplexer of its own, but can directly
| create herdr tabs for sessions:
|
| https://github.com/smagnuso/hydra-acp
| tmzt wrote:
| A nice little asciinema demo would be helpful on the TUI page. I
| should be able to see what it is, how it presents the contained
| agents, etc.
|
| I've been evaluating a few of these (and built one into another
| project I was working on, almost by accident), and am mostly
| looking for a frontend agnostic, terminal only (not harness)
| which can submit instructions to agents one line at at time with
| rate-limiting.
|
| I was also surprised by tmux being built on shared memory when I
| tried to route it over a vsock to a VM. One of the annoyances
| with tmux is it's failure to forward environment changes to the
| individual tabs (such as an option when attaching), or allow for
| something like a ssh-agent forwarder (shouldn't be built in
| though).
| mastazi wrote:
| in the herdr homepage near the top there is an interactive demo
| that responds to your mouse clicks
| krypttr wrote:
| Can anyone tell me how is this different than tmux?
| mcintyre1994 wrote:
| Mostly it's the agents view, it'll show the status of and let
| you quickly jump to all the agents you have running in any
| pane/tab.
|
| It also has a default config that's much easier to use than
| tmux, letting you use the mouse or simpler (IMO) keyboard
| shortcuts
|
| Built in worktrees are nice too.
| krypttr wrote:
| I guess I have to download and try. It does not sound too
| exciting to me.
| mcintyre1994 wrote:
| It also might just not be much use for you, especially if
| you've been using tmux for a long time and have a set up
| you like.
| kkapelon wrote:
| https://herdr.dev/compare/
| porker wrote:
| herdr users (and all the other terminal multiplexer users): what
| am I missing?
|
| I use cmux because I like tabbed terminals on macOS grouped by
| project, saves messing with our daft window management.
|
| What is it that makes herdr et al so popular with LLM users?
| Oras wrote:
| I loved using cmux for several weeks until I saw the ram usage.
| lawrencechen wrote:
| Totally fair, maker of cmux here. We fixed many RAM usage
| issues (latest version is 0.64.22), and also added an
| activity monitor to see how much RAM/CPU coding agents are
| taking.
|
| My cmux has been running with 136 workspaces and 218
| terminals, and has been hovering around 5.7 GB. Granted, the
| theoretical RAM minimum for this number of terminals is
| around 1-1.5 GB before real scrollback, so we definitely have
| more work to do.
| Oras wrote:
| Thanks, good to know. I installed the update and will check
| it out again.
|
| If it helps, the main reason I love cmux is how can I
| manage my projects into folders, I have fast access to all
| the projects which made my life a lot easier working in the
| terminal. I can also have coding, test, monitoring spilt in
| one tab per project.
| kkapelon wrote:
| https://herdr.dev/compare/
| porker wrote:
| It answers the "What" but not the "Why?"
| kkapelon wrote:
| Not sure I understand your question. You literally asked,
| "WHAT is it that makes herdr et al so popular"?
|
| Why? Because it has more/better features. Or you mean
| something else?
|
| Specifically against cmux, it is not Macosonly. So you can
| run it directly on a linux server and then ssh/mosh from
| anywhere.
| porker wrote:
| > Why? Because it has more/better features. Or you mean
| something else?
|
| I mean something else. Zoom out, why do people need, or
| want, a tool like herdr?
|
| What has led people to this point? Is it because they
| need terminal multiplexing to spawn agents, instead of
| using built-in subagents? Do they like cute sheep icons?
| What made having multiple terminals open unappealing? Is
| it the built-in alerting when attention is needed? Is it
| only applicable to people running their agents on remote
| machines?
|
| When I look at these kinds of tools, that is the question
| I can't answer because I suspect I haven't run into the
| pain points they address yet, despite running multiple
| LLM sessions in multiple projects simultaneously.
| kkapelon wrote:
| Strictly from personal opinion
|
| 1) Built-in sub agents assume you use a single AI agent.
| Some people use multiple, so they need separate
| terminals/processes by definition. Even if you use the
| same agent sometimes you have different security
| boundaries. Think also the needs for a consultant working
| with many customers at once.
|
| 2)Multiple-open terminals. When that number passes 5-7
| for me, then yes I don't like clicking on each one of
| those manually to see where my attention is needed. Herdr
| (and similar tools) show exactly what is working and what
| stalled.
|
| 3) No I use herdr locally mostly right now. But since it
| is just ssh I like the fact that you can run it from
| anywhere. I haven't done it yet, but I imagine you could
| open a herdr session from a steamdeck to a remote server
| to debug somthing
|
| Another thing I like on herdr is easy work trees. Sure
| you can do it manually with git commands, or ask the
| agent itself to use a new worktree, but just having
| workrees with a single click and a visual tree/children
| hierarchy was the killer feature for making me look at
| herdr at the first place.
|
| Yes technically you can do the same thing with just many
| terminals and custom scripts. But it is the same question
| of why Dropbox sells when you could do the same thing
| with cvs/ftp :-)
| khalic wrote:
| Congrats to the herdr team! Please don't abandon the open source
| part of the business when the cash starts flowing... every open
| source project that does a bait'n'switch is a stab at the
| viability of open source as a whole
| gitowiec wrote:
| What's the purpose of this project? Only to close the lid and let
| agent work in the background? Really that's what I found useful
| on project's homepage
| ubercore wrote:
| I dropped it in to replace zellij, and get better agent
| integration in the process.
| hrishikesh-s wrote:
| I only heard about Herdr recently and was pleasantly surprised
| that I had invented the same thing 6 months ago as an emacs
| package called Magnus :)
| la_fayette wrote:
| I started using Herdr and I really like it. Since the main
| features I wanted are already there, I have no issue with the
| commercialization. I still wonder how this can be turned into a
| profitable business. It'll be really interesting to follow
| Herdr's future. All the best to the founder!
| level87 wrote:
| I've tried Herdr a couple of times, and just can't get into it. I
| think what's off putting is another layer of keyboard shortcuts
| over my terminal...I don't see what it's doing that Wezterm and a
| bunch of splits does anyway? I'm almost certainly missing the
| point.
| SkyArrow wrote:
| For me, herdr's benefits over terminal splits are:
|
| 1. Surfacing agents which are ready for further input
|
| 2. Letting you jump quickly to said agents
|
| 3. SSH session persistence, as I work on a beefy devbox at
| work. tmux also offers this.
|
| I often need to juggle several streams of work at $job in
| parallel - such are the expectations.
|
| Like you though, I'd much prefer to use my terminal directly
| with the indirection of an additional multiplexer like herdr or
| tmux - lower latency, easier scrollback & copying.
|
| Session persistence can be solved by zmx [1].
|
| Points 1 and 2 however are concerned with tracking the state of
| and navigating to parallel agents. I'm thinking about creating
| a TUI or SwiftUI app to handle those points in the way I like,
| but the challenge of integrating such an app with zmx and kitty
| to jump to the right panes both locally and over a devbox is a
| little daunting. Plus, I've found my devbox doesn't play too
| well with `ControlMaster auto` SSH config suggested by the zmx
| docs.
|
| [1] https://github.com/neurosnap/zmx
| leoc wrote:
| So I won't have switch to Fchte or Schlirmchr?
| DrStartup wrote:
| that sucks, time to look for a new one
| gaiagraphia wrote:
| Spooky. Just set it up last night after ragequitting my own
| attempt.
|
| Good luck!
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