[HN Gopher] Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities
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Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities
Author : tchalla
Score : 110 points
Date : 2026-08-06 13:08 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| sys32768 wrote:
| #4 "Maintain Manners" is hardly simple.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| simple and easy aren't synonyms. It's a simple rule, but very
| difficult to implement.
| wat10000 wrote:
| It's brief but it's not simple. "Manners" is an extremely
| complicated concept.
| thereisnospork wrote:
| What qualifies as good manners varies from situation to
| situation, but the concept of acting with good manners is
| hardly complicated (conform to the expected behavior of the
| situation).
|
| Enforcment is a matter of encoding the rules and then
| applying a carrot and/or stick -- same as any other rule.
| wat10000 wrote:
| "Conform to the expected behavior of the situation" is
| incredibly complicated. What is the situation? How do you
| determine what the expected behavior is? What exactly
| does conforming consist of?
|
| It takes humans years to learn how to do this. Entire
| books are written on the subject. A major medical
| disorder affecting millions of people includes a
| persistent difficulty doing this specific thing. Even
| normal people have to put serious effort into this if
| they visit a place where societal norms are different
| from what they're used to.
|
| If it's not complicated, then I'm sure you can write down
| the rules for some specific situation real quick. Go
| ahead....
| thereisnospork wrote:
| "Stand to the right on an escalator"
|
| "Put trash in a trashcan and not on the ground"
|
| That wasn't complicated. And took 30seconds. Are there a
| lot of rules? Of course. Is knowing them all in advance
| possible? Of course not. Don't confuse that with
| 'complicated'.
|
| Fine people who litter. Have an ai voice chide people who
| stand on the wrong side of an escalator. Both simple.
| wat10000 wrote:
| Do I really have to stand to the right on an escalator? I
| think the nearest one is a mile away, that seems really
| inconvenient and unnecessary, and it's going to be hard
| to get my work done.
|
| I'm surprised to find this sentiment on a site filled
| with computer programmers. The most important and
| difficult lesson of computer programming is that simple-
| sounding rules have a _lot_ of details that we take for
| granted.
| zapzupnz wrote:
| > I think the nearest one is a mile away, that seems
| really inconvenient and unnecessary
|
| I think this way of thinking, being obtuse on purpose to
| try to win an internet argument (without a prize, no
| less), is the more unnecessary thing. What point does
| that argumentation try to prove other than that a
| hypothetical version of you, as opposed to most humans
| who live in large cities, are an inflexible idiot?
|
| Most people are not 100% unaware of the context in which
| they are engaging. We know to apply escalator rules when
| we're at an escalator. We know to put things in bins when
| we have things to put in bins. What we don't know, we can
| learn through observation, reading the atmosphere, and
| making at least a minimal effort not to showboat our
| individualism and, apparently, any obtuse refusal to
| engage with our context.
|
| (By the way, I don't _actually_ think _you_ are an
| inflexible idiot.)
| wat10000 wrote:
| That's my point. It's a lot more complicated than "stand
| to the right on an escalator." You have to learn through
| observation, read the atmosphere, and engage with
| context.
|
| There are some less obtuse issues with your universal
| pronouncement. There are escalators where it's too narrow
| to pass. There's no need nor expectation to stand to one
| side on these. The same goes for escalators that are so
| long that nobody's walking up them to accelerate their
| progress, or when nobody is around, or when it's so
| crowded nobody's able to pass anyway. And, at least in
| the places I'm familiar with, it doesn't apply in places
| where people aren't going to be in a big hurry. Stand
| right, pass left applies to subway stations but not
| malls.
|
| Maybe this all seems obvious. Well, go to a tourist-heavy
| place with escalators and observe how much of this is
| learned behavior that takes repeated long-term exposure
| to understand.
|
| Manners are really complicated. The escalator thing is a
| relatively simple example compared to something like,
| say, paying for a meal in a restaurant with a group, and
| it's already pretty deep when you dig into it.
| zapzupnz wrote:
| > That's my point. It's a lot more complicated
|
| It's not so complicated that you assume you need to run
| out at this very moment to find the nearest elevator just
| to prove a point. That's moronic.
|
| > There are escalators where it's too narrow to pass
|
| So you see what everybody else is doing and do that.
| Presumably, if it's that narrow, everybody's just
| standing in the centre.
|
| > The same goes for escalators that are so long that
| nobody's walking up them to accelerate their progress
|
| The fact the staircase is so long is exactly why people
| would be walking up an escalator, to save the most time.
|
| > or when nobody is around
|
| Then it clearly doesn't matter.
|
| > or when it's so crowded nobody's able to pass anyway
|
| If everybody's on one side, it's not too crowded.
|
| > it doesn't apply in places where people aren't going to
| be in a big hurry
|
| Alright, that's fine for where you are familiar. It won't
| take long at all to notice that's not the case in Japan,
| there are enough elevators all around the place.
|
| > Manners are really complicated
|
| If you're completely unobservant yet somehow think you
| need to be on edge at all times, which seems
| contradictory, I'm sure it is.
|
| Or if you think that they're inflexible edicts without
| nuance. They're manners, not morals.
| wat10000 wrote:
| Nuance is another way of saying complex.
|
| All you're really saying here is that our big brains are
| sufficiently capable to make sense of the complexity,
| which I mostly won't argue with.
| janalsncm wrote:
| Fwiw escalator standing rules depend on where you are in
| Japan.
|
| https://myjrpass.com/ja/blog/Escalator_Rules_Japan
|
| > However, each region in Japan has a different side to
| stand. In Tokyo, people stand on the left side and in
| Osaka, people stand on the right side.
| EbNar wrote:
| In some places it is something sadly absent or overlooked...
| mc32 wrote:
| And with countries with lots of newcomers it can take decades
| (well, generations) to take on the host countries manners
| rather than sticking to home country manners that may not
| mesh with host country's manners/customs.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| It's simple if your city is full of Japanese people.
| cm11 wrote:
| I don't know. I, the individual, can maintain a lot of manners
| fairly simply if I really wanted to.
| its_ethan wrote:
| I think they are saying that it's difficult to "maintain
| manners" for hundreds of thousands to millions of diverse "I,
| the individual" 's. It's great that you don't struggle with
| that yourself, but your manners can be made entirely
| irrelevant by 1 person in a public place who has anti-social
| behaviors (doesn't share the same set of "required" values
| for that society).
| cm11 wrote:
| You're right, it can be read as it being difficult for
| _society_ to maintain manners. I agree and I should have
| been clearer. But I also think you may be misunderstanding
| what I said to fit it into your own model. There is a
| difference between manners and what results from them. You
| can maintain (what you believe to be) good manners without
| it improving society to your liking. This is "irrelevant"
| in the sense of not changing things, but it is not
| irrelevant to maintaining your manners. Conforming to the
| bad manners is the more likely culprit to the bad outcomes
| anyway.
|
| Caving on manners to avoid the "struggle", or rather,
| caving on manners because one benefits from doing so is
| just a reflection of how much one values the values. This
| is simply saying that more often than not we can maintain
| them, it just might not be worth it to us.
| WarmWash wrote:
| The actual question is if you could move to another country
| with a very different system of "manners" (read: culture) and
| throw out your learned behavior and adopt theirs.
|
| My experience living in an incredibly multi-cultural
| immigrant dense area, is overwhelmingly "No". People like
| their "home" cultures (generally they believe its the best),
| and they tend to carry some degree of resentment for their
| new society for not recognizing that. It creates endless
| friction at the edges (whereas core values tend to be pretty
| similar globally).
|
| Japan doesn't really deal with this at all, and what
| immigrant ingress they have is usually fueled by people
| trying to live a Japanese like life.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| It needs critical mass, but then it cascades.
|
| If you read through the description, what they talk about is
| that the culture is built around the idea of the individual
| being part of something bigger, and that consideration and
| respect for that something bigger (other people), is core to
| your own identity.
|
| That's not hard for a lot of cultures, but it's almost
| impossible for most cultures in the Western hemisphere, and to
| change it would require a cultural reset that would run against
| the grain of many things that make those cultures what they
| are.
|
| If it _were_ possible though - and there are times when certain
| subcultures had standards of etiquette different to those
| widely accepted today in the West - it wouldn 't need 100% of
| people to "sign up", just enough to make it ostracising to not
| conform. And then the outliers would conform.
|
| We do this already: it's OK (albeit illegal), to cycle through
| a red light where I live, because lots of people do it, but if
| you were to try and get served ahead of your turn in a pub, you
| might get into an argument, because _nobody_ does that without
| expecting a problem.
| busterarm wrote:
| The cracks are already there though in Japan where this is
| starting to fall apart and has fueled a substantial rise in
| anti-immigration sentiment there. Particularly at specific
| groups that are not assimilating (but affecting basically
| every immigrant).
|
| I feel like half your post is dancing around not saying this.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| I'm not saying this, because I'm not aware of this. I have
| a friend who is enjoying living in Osaka, but I wouldn't
| feel qualified to talk about Japanese sentiment towards him
| or any other group of non-natives.
|
| I'm saying that culture spreads through fear of being
| ostracized and the cost of not conforming to that culture.
| This is true in any country. It seems Japan has a "broader"
| and "firmer" culture that is rooted in respect to others,
| but it would take some serious effort for a similar culture
| to take hold in Europe or the US, I think.
|
| A sense of "non conformity" leading to issues is not unique
| to Japan though, in Europe it is described as a problem
| with "multiculturalism".
|
| The British (of which I am one), have spent thousands of
| years stealing the best bits of immigrant culture but seem
| to have forgotten that (or have been unable to absorb, for
| whatever reason), for the last ~60 years. That's leading to
| a rise in far-right sentiment and a growing desire for
| mono-culturalism. I can see evidence of that in Germany,
| France and other European nations. I could easily imagine
| it appearing more in Japan.
| ifwinterco wrote:
| This is the flip side of East Asian societies where
| everything is polite and orderly: they're also extremely
| conformist (sometimes stifling so), and the conformity and
| good manners are maintained by strict social policing (it's
| not much fun to stand out and be different)
| kimjune01 wrote:
| It only takes a small minority to ruin it for the rest of us.
| for example, bike theft
| mc3301 wrote:
| Fun fact: despite a national registry of bicycle serial
| numbers (and most people do this), the majority of Japanese
| people I know have had a bicycle stolen. Though it isn't
| unheard-of to get it back.
| everdrive wrote:
| It's been done before, and continues to be done in some places.
| It requires high group trust, and a strong group identity.
| billfor wrote:
| That's the key one -- it should be first and maybe the only one
| on the list. Japan is mono-culture and high-trust. They are all
| on the same page. You can't replicate that in western cities
| any more, such as the US or Europe. In some ways it's at odds
| with the idea of globalization and multiculturalism.
| f13f1f1f1 wrote:
| Rule 1: be filled with Japanese people
|
| Cities and any polity or group of people cannot be created by
| some abstract rules or enforced. You need it to be composed of
| individuals who are disposed to act harmoniously with each other
| and have a culture (which is basically a bunch of jigging to aid
| harmonious interactions, you cannot create top down the manners
| you don't want people to violate). Everyone acting in their own
| self-interest ends up creating a harmonious organization because
| all of their self-interest corresponds such that their self
| interest is reflected in the good of the whole.
|
| Just as a feedback system, if there is something wrong in a city
| or organization if the person who encounters it sees it as
| contrary to their own self interest and is capable of dealing
| with it themselves they will.
|
| If this internal principle does not exist you rely on top down
| surveillance and enforcement which is basically delusional if it
| works will only be through violent enforcement against the
| people. Again in terms of a feedback system, if the polity is
| constructed out of a bunch of individuals who have a self-
| interest that corresponds with the good of the whole, there is no
| need to propagate that information to some manager. The persons
| directly involved with it are capable of dealing with it mindful
| of it's impact on the good of the whole because it's good for
| them. If you do not have that you would need a system of
| management, evaluation, and enforcement which basically demands
| the disruption in question is something easy to communicate and
| form policies around. Anything that cannot be just cannot be
| dealt with and the system falls under it's own weight. That's why
| technocracy is a delusion that is always doomed to fail, if the
| individual units in a system are unable to deal with aberrations
| on their own it requires the whole mass of bureaucracy to
| evaluate, construct policies, enforce etc. That is only capable
| of handling anything which is understandable to that kind of
| system, which is a small fraction of actual disruptions.
|
| I appreciate the efforts of people trying to emulate the
| positives of Japanese cities mimicking the externals of it and
| enforcing it on other people is the opposite of any actual
| organic system and itself prohibits the more dynamic system that
| is required for an actually stable polity. If someone sees a
| wallet on the street they have to see it as their own self-
| interest not to steal it. If people do not see themselves as
| having a shared self-interest with those around them there is no
| enforcement or rules or policies that can make that polity stable
| or harmonious.
| croes wrote:
| Maybe people just want to prevent getting arrested for a crime.
|
| Seems like the hardly arrest the innocent, even if they didn't
| do it
|
| https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/11/04/inquiry-needed-japans-fl...
| enaaem wrote:
| Singapore is a multi-culturial society and it is also known to
| be very safe and clean like Japan. You can definitely make
| people behave with top down rules, and eventually it just
| becomes 'culture'.
| languagelearner wrote:
| >You can definitely make people behave with top down rules,
| and eventually it just becomes 'culture'.
|
| If by people you mean the particular type of people that live
| in Singapore, who are known across the world to be supple and
| tame. Now try this logic in the United States with certain
| subpopulations who are chronically misbehaved and see where
| it gets you. Hint: it's been tried for a long time and it
| doesn't work.
| stringsandchars wrote:
| > It's a concept that's difficult to replicate elsewhere, but
| Lydon compares it to what made old Main Street America so
| special. Designing at a people-first scale pays off. "The smell
| of fried croquettes drifting onto the streets, small shops run by
| the building owners, easy public transit access, a feeling of
| safety and community for all ages... it's hard to overstate how
| well this all works."
|
| Honestly, even though I love the idea of Japan and the idealized
| vision of Japan that's often presented in the media, I can't help
| thinking that a lot of this stuff can be found much closer to
| home in Europe. The BBC didn't need to go all the way to Tokyo -
| they could find this in pretty much any Spanish city.
| packetlost wrote:
| That kind of thing is _extremely_ rare in the US sadly.
| solarmist wrote:
| Nowadays. The last 50 years haven't been kind to people in
| the US.
| inigyou wrote:
| I'd feel more sorry if they hadn't voted for it every two
| years for the last 50.
| qurren wrote:
| And outside of a handful of New England towns, wherever that
| kind of city planning exists in the US, those parts of town
| are inhabited by half-dead zombies on meth whispering threats
| at you as you walk by. Not a pleasant experience. That's why
| sane people in the US usually move to suburbia as soon as
| they can afford a car.
| inigyou wrote:
| That's probably because the US said that meth addicts
| aren't allowed to exist indoors. So instead they exist
| outdoors. Who would've expected that?
| fidotron wrote:
| > smell of fried croquettes drifting onto the streets, small
| shops run by the building owners, easy public transit access
|
| The genius of the BBC is to gloss over that in a culture that
| isn't Japanese these things all easily become negatives.
|
| Who wants the smell of other people's food, maybe from a
| cuisine you hate? Or new local businesses cannot start because
| they can't buy property limiting options for consumers? And
| public transit stops become noise and litter parties.
| Avicebron wrote:
| I can tell you haven't been to japan, the noise and litter
| issues aren't as much of a problem there.
|
| Get to the bottom of why that is and you'll probably have a
| good understanding where the problems to address are.
| inigyou wrote:
| Is it the monoethnicity?
| Avicebron wrote:
| Do you think being prosocial is genetic?
| inigyou wrote:
| I have no idea. You clearly do, because you know an
| answer you're inviting all of us to guess.
| numbers_guy wrote:
| Exactly what I was thinking. In Europe (e.g. UK or Germany)
| people often complain when chip shops or other fried food
| establishments open below them, because of the constant
| smells.
| danudey wrote:
| All of your complaints sound like someone who is projecting
| American values and behavior onto another culture.
|
| > Or new local businesses cannot start because they can't buy
| property limiting options for consumers?
|
| Are a lot of new local businesses starting up in America's
| suburbs? Is it a problem to have the same shops operating in
| the community for decades if they serve the community's
| needs?
|
| Even in Manhattan I saw 'shops' which seemed to have a
| similar square footage to my bathtub; if there's an
| opportunity people will find a way.
|
| > And public transit stops become noise and litter parties.
|
| If you have garbage cans at your transit stops and your
| populace are respectful towards each other then this is also
| not a problem. If your idea of a transit stop is somehow also
| some kind of rowdy social event then the problem is not urban
| planning.
|
| Fundamentally though this is a common American attitude. Look
| at something that's new and different and say "This would be
| bad for these reasons", ignoring the fact that dozens of
| other Western and Eastern countries with dozens of different
| cultures and behaviors all do these things and it all works
| out fine.
|
| It's the same as the argument about health care. Socialized
| medicine would be bad for reasons X, Y, Z, even though if you
| look at countries which have socialized medicine and a
| similar standard of living you'll see that not only do those
| countries not have those problems but also those countries
| have better health outcomes, longer life expectancy, and more
| efficient healthcare.
|
| You say that none of this stuff would work in "a culture that
| isn't Japanese", but what you really mean is that it wouldn't
| work "in a culture which is American", so maybe that's a good
| place to start looking for things to change.
| fidotron wrote:
| > Fundamentally though this is a common American attitude.
| Look at something that's new and different and say "This
| would be bad for these reasons"
|
| Among the other bits of wrongness in your comment this is
| spectacular. Americans are utterly addicted to novelty.
|
| Japan being a well functioning society is not "new and
| different".
| ShinyLeftPad wrote:
| Initially I didn't mind those smells and sounds in Asia
| (it's anywhere not just Japan). But unless you're born
| there they become annoying quickly, especially if you can
| smell things and hear public transit in your flat. And
| because it's a BBC report it's for sure for western
| audience who was not born there.
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| TFA explains that Japan is unusual as being the only country in
| Asia with two cities in the top 10 most liveable cities in the
| World. That's why they wrote the article. If Spain had been the
| only country in Europe with two cities in the top 10, they
| might have done it in Spain.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| plus it's the BBC, plenty of UK-ians living in Spain. No need
| to highlight that when a solid chunk of the readership are in
| or will go to Hispania
| danudey wrote:
| Or come to downtown Vancouver. I live in a small apartment, but
| within four blocks I have a community centre with gym, a
| pharmacy, a post office, a grocery store, a small bakery, the
| best liquor store in the city, three banks, a hot pot
| restaurant, a physiotherapist/massage therapist office, a vet,
| a dispensary, multiple hairdressers, an optometrist, several
| restaurants, two places to get gelato, a public plaza with a
| weekly farmer's market, a walking/cycling route along the
| waterfront, a car wash, a sports bar with arcade machines,
| skeeball, and pinball, an enclosed pollinator meadow, a science
| museum/IMAX theatre, two separate public "subway" lines (though
| one is elevated and one is below-grade), and two private but
| inexpensive water taxi services.
|
| I can leave my house at 6 AM and go get fresh bread or baked
| goods and go sit by the water, or I can leave the house at 7 AM
| to get groceries if I'm out of something and be back by 7:10.
|
| American cities don't want this because having a huge empty
| house with a huge empty yard and having to drive 90 minutes to
| get to work or 30 minutes to get groceries is the American
| Dream and no one who's been sold this dream wants to believe
| that there are so many better and more efficient ways to live.
| giwook wrote:
| One key difference that jumps out at me between various
| cities in Japan and Vancouver is that the COL seems
| significantly better in Japan. When I visited Vancouver I
| couldn't afford to stay in or even near the city, I had to
| find a place about 20 minutes away and even then it was
| pricey. Whereas in Japan I had no problem finding affordable
| stays in city centers in all of the major cities I visited,
| including Tokyo.
|
| I will admit my ignorance here however and acknowledge there
| are likely myriad other variables at play here that I'm not
| considering.
| jerlam wrote:
| As a visitor, it's probably impossible to know the real
| cost of living is in different areas, because you're not
| employed locally, paid local wages, or paying rent and
| utilities. You are a foreigner with foreign money staying
| in hotels.
| pibaker wrote:
| Affordable to you or affordable to the locals? The yen has
| devalued a lot in the past decade or so, giving foreigners
| a lot more spending power in Japan and causing the current
| tourism boom and backlash.
| torisima wrote:
| The weak yen has certainly made Japan feel much cheaper
| for foreign visitors in recent years. But even before
| that, the general price level was lower than in many
| Western cities.
|
| Also, if you're trying to save money as a local, moving
| just 3-4 train stops away often makes a noticeable
| difference in rent or hotel prices.
| ryan_lane wrote:
| Still affordable to locals. The yen has devalued, and the
| cost of mansions (condos) have gone up, but single family
| homes, small apartments, etc are still similarly priced
| to buy, and rent is generally stable. A major difference
| is that if you are OK with a tiny apartment, you can get
| one, and it'll be something you can pay.
|
| You can definitely see affects of the poor economy lately
| (lots of pawn shops popping up, replacing expensive
| cafes/restaurants), but housing is still reasonable for
| now.
| prteja11 wrote:
| While you are correct about Vancouver downtown, once you get
| o suburbs like Langley, Coquitlam, they are no different that
| what you are calling out American cities for.
|
| If we limit this to downtowns, there are several cities in
| America that are similar (Boston, Seattle, SF, SanDiego,
| Austin, NYC to name a few).
| giwook wrote:
| I think OP must be in their early 20s and has not
| experienced much of life yet.
|
| And there's nothing wrong with that.
| FloorEgg wrote:
| That would imply they created their hacker news account
| when they were 3-8 years old. Seems unlikely.
|
| Its more likely that they simply value all the
| convenience they listed over having their own backyard,
| larger living space, living in a quiet safe neighborhood
| for kids to run around in, and being surrounded by
| nature.
| testing22321 wrote:
| > _there are several cities in America that are similar
| (Boston, Seattle, SF, SanDiego, Austin, NYC to name a
| few)._
|
| Worth noting the US does not have a single city in the top
| 20 worlds most livable. Honolulu is #25, Atlanta gets #35
|
| That tells you something.
| newfriend wrote:
| Yes, it tells me the methodology is biased.
| testing22321 wrote:
| Hahaha. Absolutely on point. Don't like the outcome?
| Methodology is bad.
|
| Never mind this has been around for decades.
|
| It actually makes perfect sense. In every metric that
| impacts a persons everyday life the us is almost always
| dead last among OECD countries. So of course the cites
| are too.
| treis wrote:
| As someone who lives in Atlanta I can't imagine any way
| it's the second most livable city in the country.
| weakened_malloc wrote:
| It tells me the way they measure 'livable' is wrong.
| Given the choice, most people would choose to be in any
| one of those over where ever they are now, and the cities
| on 'most livable' lists.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Those top 20 livable lists are always pretty narrowly
| defined though. They'll mention some pricey cities in
| Switzerland for sure, and for forget the poor slouches
| that have to commute into Bern from Freiburg.
| holgerschurig wrote:
| > They'll mention some pricey cities in Switzerland
|
| The thing is that these cities aren't pricy for swiss
| people, with a swiss pay-cheque (err, direct bank-to-bank
| money transmit). It's all a result of decades long higher
| inflation there, that now has this extreme price
| difference. And with prices did their wages increase ...
| but not yours, visiting Switzerland. At least the country
| is so small you can just drive through. You don't need to
| go into one of their supermarket and see that all the
| stuff is 2x as costly as north, east, west or south of it
| ...
|
| But yeah, prices play probably a huge role in this
| "livability" index.
|
| Zurich (Zurich) is at place 3, while Wien (Vienna) is at
| 2. And I guess this has something to do with the
| spectacular low flat rents in Wien. They have lots of
| non-profit cooperatives that own the houses and take rent
| so that they can refurbish the houses and build new ones
| (1/4 of all flats in Austria is build by such
| cooperatives). All over Austria, 16% of all flats/houses
| are owned by them. But I guess in Wien it's even higher.
|
| There are comparison sites that say that in Munchen
| (Munich) you pay in average 1249 EUR for rent, while in
| Wien it is 872 EUR. Okay, I select the most expensive
| german town, so maybe this is rigged. But even with
| capital vs. capital Wien is cheaper.
|
| https://stadtkosten.de/vergleich/munchen-vs-wien
|
| https://stadtkosten.de/vergleich/berlin-vs-wien
|
| The nicest town isn't "livable" if people can't live
| there because it's only for DINKS.
| ahartmetz wrote:
| How'd you measure 'livable'? 1. income, 2-n crickets?
| foco_tubi wrote:
| That isn't anywhere close to the definition of livable
| though
| rangestransform wrote:
| Coquitlam is slightly better than American suburbia, I had
| plenty of parks and restaurants in walking distance,
| there's skytrain and BRT now too
| treis wrote:
| It's because living in downtown Vancouver is expensive. Your
| rent probably comes close to covering the mortgage on one of
| those huge empty houses in the suburbs. That fresh baked good
| is probably ~$4 while the equivalent at Walmart is $1. No
| doubt it's a great lifestyle for well off DINKs. A lot harder
| to make it work for a family of 5 on 50k a year.
| smw wrote:
| I don't think there really _is_ an equivalent at Walmart?
| picofarad wrote:
| Walmart bakes fresh bread too. I get it Walmart sucks but
| they do have everything that a normal supermarket has,
| including fresh hot food, bakery, deli.
| kaladin-jasnah wrote:
| Yeah, something that bothers me is that there is such a
| tradeoff between affordability and walkabiliy. Most of the
| walkable cities/towns I would imagine being able to afford
| living in later in life I would imagine will no longer be
| affordable when I eventually make money (even on a dual
| income). Granted, I also don't want to live in dense areas
| but also want walkability.
| lwansbrough wrote:
| It shouldn't be, and certainly doesn't have to be.
| Logically it should be cheaper to live in an apartment than
| an entire house - obviously.
|
| Suburbs are subsidized by economic centres. And the state
| of affairs in North America - Vancouver included - is we're
| not building housing to match demand. That's true purely in
| terms of individual units but it's also true for types of
| units. Like apartments that aren't luxury units, but that
| can fit a family. They don't build those anymore because
| city council makes it completely unprofitable for
| developers.
|
| If you think that apartment living is inherently more
| expensive I'm sorry to tell you that you have it completely
| backwards.
| waffletower wrote:
| I live in an American city. I have a yard large enough to
| play frisbee with my dog. I walk downstairs to go to work. I
| can walk to a good taqueria and take pole dancing classes a
| few doors up (someday). There is an evil bank that I could
| walk to but don't. Cafe, Thai, Soul Food, Vietnamese, Pizza.
| Closer than all of the walking distance I mentioned is light
| rail that goes downtown and further. Someday it might even go
| to Vancouver (the other one sadly :( )
| orangedog wrote:
| I live in a US city.
|
| I have a nature area, gym, pharmacy, grocery store, numerous
| restaurants, bar, and a bunch of other amenities you just
| listed. I live basically on the rail line so I can get to the
| rest of the city in 30 minutes (with more of said amenities)
| and am at the intersection of two major highways which means
| I have even more travel options. I'm 2 train stops from a
| smaller downtown which has every botique shop you can
| imagine.
|
| I do live in a place that was specifically designed for this
| but these places are designed and aren't that unheard of in
| US cities. When I lived in the suburbs I had similar options
| a few minutes walk from my house.
| giwook wrote:
| Plenty of American cities have this. I have three big grocery
| stores within a 2-7 minute walk. Myriad restaurants,
| bakeries, and cafes literally on the same block and within
| walking distance of me.
|
| Vancouver is great, just wanted to call out the bias and
| massive overgeneralization in your statement.
| testing22321 wrote:
| What a shame you don't have good public transit, horrible
| crime and pollution, poor schools and a police force that
| is actively against you.
|
| The US does not have a single city in the top 20 worlds
| most livable for a reason. (Many, actually)
| drekipus wrote:
| > Plenty of American cities have this. I have three big
| grocery stores...
|
| Yeah this is precisely the exact opposite of what the
| article is talking about.
| meerita wrote:
| America is too big to compare it with one single city of
| Canada.
| shevy-java wrote:
| Canada wins either way. You can notice this on reddit
| discussions too - they are absolutely upset about the
| orange king. And that motivates Canadians to do better than
| Americans now - after all you don't want the orange king to
| be able to ruin Canada here.
| fidotron wrote:
| The single most frustrating thing about being in Canada
| is they can't even work out how to use their current
| grievances to deal with, you know, getting out of our own
| way like the crazy inter provincial trade restrictions.
| And yet the complex remains.
|
| One of the insane aspects of this is it's genuinely
| easier to deal with foreign countries than other parts of
| the same country . . . but I digress.
| testing22321 wrote:
| > _Or come to downtown Vancouver_
|
| In the last ~20 years Vancouver has almost always been the
| number one or number two worlds most livable city, so this
| makes perfect sense.
| kimjune01 wrote:
| Vancouver dream, not achievable with a median income
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I live in Ballard Seattle, we have most of that except the
| hot pot place (we are getting a Korean BBQ someday soon
| though). Ok, no imax (you have to take the bus to Seattle
| center for that). And...no subway-like mass transit until
| 2065 it seems.
|
| But you can get that in the states, you just need to pay for
| it, although the prices are something Vancouverites can
| surely emphasize with. And frankly, Vancouver area has some
| wicked unhappy commute opportunities as well.
|
| The nice thing about living in China was that it was easy and
| cheap to live urban.
| j16sdiz wrote:
| > The nice thing about living in China was that it was easy
| and cheap to live urban.
|
| It is not that cheap when you adjust for the average hourly
| salary.
|
| and imported goods are disproportionly expensive when you
| need them
| richardatlarge wrote:
| America's greatest achievement is to last as long as it has
| while inverting all common sense. What is the fatal seed, I
| often wonder. I think this article suggests what it is. The
| role of the car in its fabric suggests it's hyper-
| individualism: a myth that the more untethered the self it,
| the more it will thrive. Hogwash
| shimman wrote:
| Probably goes back to the Roman idea of ownership +
| dominion; you're legally allowed to neglect your property.
| Compare this with some American tribes, during the same
| time period, where property ownership was shared and based
| on who were the best stewards of the land (neglect your
| space, and you lose standing in the community).
| aianus wrote:
| Vancouver is SF-level drug disorder paired with Detroit
| salaries, in no way is it more "livable" than a nice US
| suburb.
| vkou wrote:
| 99% of Vancouver by area does not have anything resembling
| 'SF level drug disorder', and if your 'nice US suburb'
| didn't just punt all of its fucking problems into its
| nearest downtown, it too would have an East Hastings, or
| three.
|
| It probably has a lower homicide rate (and a vastly lower
| vehicular homicide rate) per capita than your 'nice US
| suburb'.
|
| That same 'nice US suburb' is also, for some reason, packed
| to the gills with terrified people who have an inexplicable
| desire to own guns for 'self-defense'. Self-defense from
| what..?
|
| Having been to quite a number of what I would call 'nice US
| suburbs', and knowing people from them, a significant
| fraction of them act like they are living in some lawless
| Mad Max hellscape. How do you square this circle?
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| This makes me think you haven't spent time in any of these
| cities.
| foco_tubi wrote:
| Are you implying "nice" US suburbs don't have drug
| disorders?
| wiether wrote:
| > The smell of fried croquettes
|
| I have this on my way back how, well, fried potatoes/chips
| actually, and I hate it.
|
| But yeah, this description matches the city I live in here in
| France.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| > ... they could find this in pretty much any Spanish city
|
| That's a horseload of bullcrap. For a start there are plenty of
| pickpockets in many spanish cities (not just Madrid, Barcelona
| and Valencia). Then there are people visiting houses: don't
| tell me it doesn't happen for I had my house visited by thieves
| the one time I forgot to put the alarm on (because I had to run
| to the ER for my daughter was between life and death).
|
| I happen to know both Spain and Japan very well (I've got
| family in Japan): there's not _anywhere_ near the level of
| safety you have in Tokyo in spanish cities.
|
| Not even _close_.
| donw wrote:
| It's funny how these articles always conveniently skip over
| the most important point: you first have to fill your city
| with _Japanese people_.
| analog31 wrote:
| I don't think this is as absurd as it sounds. Come to the
| US Midwest. "Wisconsin nice" is a stereotype, and makes us
| seem a little bit like hicks, but it's real. People really
| are polite to one another. A friend from one of the coasts
| observed after a long trip through rural areas by bike:
| "Nobody tried to kill me."
|
| Sometimes our infrastructure and zoning are awkward, and
| we're too reliant on cars, but I still think there's hope.
| MiroslavPokorny wrote:
| But nobody in Japan is actually living.
|
| They are all in a rush to get home or work or school.
|
| I feel sorry how little time they actually get to do things
| they want to do on their own schedule.
| richardatlarge wrote:
| Japanese live for the afterlife, but know there isn't one,
| so it's coming apart.
| pezezin wrote:
| On the other hand Spanish trains don't need women only cars
| due to the massive amount of dirty chikan ojaji (old guys
| that love groping women, even underage schoolgirls). Japan is
| not a paradise either.
| stringsandchars wrote:
| > That's a horseload of bullcrap.
|
| I agree it'd be hard for almost any other country to match
| that general sense of "safety" in Japanese society - we've
| probably all read the stories about wallets full of cash
| being dutifully handed in to the lost property office, and so
| on.
|
| But the idea that Spanish towns are seething with pickpockets
| and everyone is creeping around in fear is also "bullcrap",
| imo.
|
| My family is from Spain and I've spent a lot of time living
| and visiting there. Before she passed away, my 90+ year-old
| mum was out with her friends every single evening - playing
| cards, walking around the streets, mixing it up with families
| and small children strolling and playing outside long into
| the night.
|
| I'm pretty amazed some robbers somehow knew your alarm was
| off that one time you had to rush out. That was pretty bad
| luck.
| pezezin wrote:
| > The BBC didn't need to go all the way to Tokyo - they could
| find this in pretty much any Spanish city.
|
| This. When my Japanese girlfriend finally visited my small
| hometown in Spain, she was surprised how lively the city was.
| Not Madrid or Barcelona, but just a small 100k city. In Japan
| the big cities are cool, but small cities are ugly and boring.
| timr wrote:
| I had to laugh when they put a quote from a wheelchair user at
| the top of the article. Japan is many good things, but friendly
| to wheelchair users is not one of them.
|
| As western tourists always seem to find out when they land with
| their gigantic suitcases, many Tokyo train stations require
| stairs to enter or exit.
| mikhael wrote:
| on tokyo train and subway stations specifically: maybe in the
| past they weren't accessible, but at least since the olympics,
| they've become so. i believe they're closing in on 100% now.
| timr wrote:
| Not even close. They're better than they used to be, and the
| major stations that tourists go to are mostly kinda-sorta OK,
| but the median station has 1 elevator if you're _lucky_ , and
| probably around the same number of accessible entrances.
|
| ...and we haven't even discussed the fact that _riding the
| train_ with a wheelchair typically involves reservation of a
| staff member on each end of the journey, to help you get on
| and off.
| mikhael wrote:
| i'd be interested learning how you've come up with that -
| it's disinformation. i'm speaking from extensive, direct
| experience.
| timr wrote:
| > I'd be interested learning how you've come up with that
| - it's disinformation. i'm speaking from extensive,
| direct experience.
|
| I live here and have eyes. But tell me more about
| "disinformation."
|
| Tokyo metro's standard for accessibility is to have _one
| route_ that is accessible from street level to the
| platform. That 's fine, but it's a far cry from _every_
| entrance being accessible, or even just ensuring that you
| don 't require staff support to make it through that
| route. Consider Takadanobaba [1] -- a major transit point
| that I know well. Yes, it's technically "one route", but
| just taking into account subway station exits (and not
| Seibu or JR line transfers, which are harder), it
| qualifies only because it has a single elevator that goes
| to ground. Literally _every other exit_ is inaccessible.
|
| [1] https://www.tokyometro.jp/lang_en/station/takadanobab
| a/index...
| mikhael wrote:
| i use the subway here nearly everyday - many different
| routes, not just touristy areas, often to small stations
| on the outskirts of the city, or other places i haven't
| been, just for fun. i don't think i've ever seen a
| station with only one elevator, it's always at least one
| platform-to-ticket-gate, and one ticket-gate-to-ground
| (maybe that's what you meant). the worst i've experienced
| has been a wheelchair-accessible stair lift or escalator
| (a bit dreadful, but they do work). if you want to do
| some random sampling, pull up a random station map and
| check the accessible routes.
|
| (i use a wheelchair.)
| timr wrote:
| > I don't think i've ever seen a station with only one
| elevator, it's always at least one platform-to-ticket-
| gate, and one ticket-gate-to-ground (maybe that's what
| you meant).
|
| Well, first, I'm talking not just about the subway, but
| _all_ rail lines, which is a higher bar.
|
| Setting that aside, what I meant was what you've inferred
| -- there's typically _one_ elevator path that will get
| you out of an "accessible" station. Yes, that (usually)
| requires one elevator per platform to work at all, but it
| still leaves most exits inaccessible in the average case.
|
| I started this subthread only by saying that Tokyo is not
| particularly wheelchair friendly. If you use one, I don't
| know how you could possibly dispute this. It's a land of
| staircases, and I've been repeatedly foiled just trying
| to move heavy luggage.
|
| I grant you that in Japan they will usually bend over
| backwards to make something work, but I really feel for
| disabled folks here.
| mikhael wrote:
| i can't speak for all rail lines through tokyo - the ones
| i've taken have been fine. quick searching suggests
| they're probably mostly fine. the standard for me is not
| "is it easy?" but "is it possible?" or maybe "is it not a
| huge pain in the ass?" - it's always cleared that for me.
| signage could often be better, i'll definitely say that.
|
| tokyo more broadly: it's improving, but yeah, it's
| nowhere close to 100%. obviously i won't disagree with
| you there.
|
| and i didn't mean to come off as too harsh. but i
| imagined someone reading your comment and being deeply
| discouraged (as i might have been, many years younger)
| when in reality tokyo has possibly one of the best and
| most accessible subway systems in the world.
|
| it's not all roses, but outside of the US, most of the
| world is not so wheelchair-friendly (in my experience and
| talking to disabled folks, at least). (and don't get me
| started on NYC, which is just wheelchair-hostile.)
| timr wrote:
| > and i didn't mean to come off as too harsh. but i
| imagined someone reading your comment and being deeply
| discouraged (as i might have been, many years younger)
| when in reality tokyo has possibly one of the best and
| most accessible subway systems in the world.
|
| Fair point. And I should apologize for being a bit snarky
| in response -- I get prickly when accused of
| "disinformation".
|
| I admit that I'm used to the US ADA version of things,
| and that colors my views. But yeah, by the standards of
| the rest of the world, that's probably a pretty high bar.
|
| > (and don't get me started on NYC, which is just
| wheelchair-hostile.)
|
| Oh, definitely.
| mikhael wrote:
| yeah, that's mostly correct, but i don't see it as a
| barrier. i don't think an elevator needs to be slammed
| down next to every staircase. if there's a way in, and a
| way out, i consider that a win. will i lose maybe 5
| minutes because the accessible entrance is not in the
| most convenient location that day? perhaps. but it's just
| that - an inconvenience.
|
| on the staff support: i don't really see any problem here
| at all. in fact, i think the service that the staff
| provides is truly excellent. most lines have nearly level
| train-to-platform gaps, but if i feel like i need a ramp,
| i can ask the attendant at the gate, and they will
| arrange for someone to quickly unfold a portable ramp
| when the train arrives, _and_ for someone to do the same
| at the destination, exactly where i arrive. (coming from
| the US, can i imagine this level of service at _any_ US
| city? uh, yeah, no.)
| timr wrote:
| > if there's a way in, and a way out, i consider that a
| win. will i lose maybe 5 minutes because the accessible
| entrance is not in the most convenient location that day?
| perhaps. but it's just that - an inconvenience.
|
| I get that, and I also don't think they need to plop an
| elevator at every staircase, but there are _so many_
| stations where they could have ramps or some other minor
| improvement to make more exits accessible. And if the one
| path drops you on the wrong side of the tracks from your
| destination, that 's often more than a five-minute
| problem -- my own home station has one elevator on the
| north side of the tracks, but if your destination is on
| the _south_ , you must exit, cross a busy intersection,
| and cross the tracks at grade.
|
| > on the staff support: i don't really see any problem
| here at all. in fact, i think the service that the staff
| provides is truly excellent.
|
| I agree. I just made a similar comment on your other
| response. Compared to many places in the world, they're
| at least trying.
| mikhael wrote:
| (just curious if you're willing to share which station
| that is. i'm sincerely interested in checking it out.)
| timr wrote:
| Not publicly. Send me an email.
| inatreecrown2 wrote:
| Nowhere close to 100%. Even on the Yamanote Line (Tokyo's
| central loop) you will find stations with stairs only exit A,
| and one elevator that goes to exit B, leaving you in a part
| of town where you can't get to A without using stairs outside
| the station.
| MyHonestOpinon wrote:
| Looked at the report. They only show the top 10 and bottom 10
| cities. Which has very limited use.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Liveability_Index#2026
| hypertexthero wrote:
| See also Jane Jacob's The Death and Life of Great American
| Cities.
| shevy-java wrote:
| > "Japan is built to work for everyone," says Josh Grisdale
|
| Well - the article does not talk about the more recent hostility
| to gaijin in Japan.
|
| Example (article) from a year ago:
|
| https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/09/21/j...
|
| You can find similar articles by other media outlets. Japan has
| changed - and is changing. I've also noticed this on youtube, e.
| g. Paolo from Tokyo suddenly praising new restrictive laws. That
| was a strong indicator that Japan really fundamentally changed
| here. An old chinese stratagem is to hide the dagger behind the
| smile: https://www.echineselearning.com/blog/chinese-slang-hide-
| a-d...
|
| I am not in any way applying that this applies to all japanese as
| such, of course; but I am more referring here to a trend where
| things are changing to the worse. Also, cost of living is high
| and there is an overcrowding problem in many of the cities. Even
| then I think the only city that would interest me is Tokio.
| MiroslavPokorny wrote:
| I feel sorry for nearly every one Paolo visits....
|
| Its like those people have no life, it seems to be a self
| imposed volunteer prison.
|
| Work, sleep, work, repeat until you die.
| hagbard_c wrote:
| The BBC forgot - or, as is more likely, refused to mention - rule
| #0: ensure a homogeneous culture with rather stringent rules
| around public behaviour.
| netsharc wrote:
| When I read comments like yours, I always read "homogeneous" as
| "ethnically pure", and judge the comment writer accordingly.
|
| No debating about the stringent rules, which I'ver read comes
| from the Samurai times, but I think your projecting your idea
| of "racism works!"...
| akudha wrote:
| I wonder how much of these architecture, building etc decisions
| are because of higher percentage of aging population. In the
| west, we see more anti-homeless designs (spikes, removing benches
| in train stations etc) which is sad
| hagbard_c wrote:
| Earlier on I posted the following comment which for some
| inexplicable reason got flagged:
|
| _The BBC forgot - or, as is more likely, refused to mention -
| rule #0: ensure a homogeneous culture with rather stringent rules
| around public behaviour._
|
| To the person or persons who flagged this comment, please
| explain. What is it that got you to flag this comment? If there
| is one thing Japan is known for it is for having a homogeneous
| culture with rather stringent rules around public behaviour. Is
| the truth so hard to accept that it needs flagging? Those
| Japanese cities without Japanese culture would look totally
| different and in some ways not nearly as 'liveable', in other
| ways probably more interesting.
|
| If you don't agree with a comment there is the _reply_ link to
| let us know. This is a discussion site after all. If you just don
| 't like a comment without being able to put into words why just
| give it some more thought, the words may come.
| rayiner wrote:
| Japanese cities are livable in large part because Japanese people
| are socialized against behaviors that are not conducive to living
| in close quarters with other people. If you ask them they'll tell
| you that.
| zkmon wrote:
| > get to work without a car, do your shopping on foot
|
| Some cities in Europe have town-centers in every neighborhood
| within walkable distance. This is extremely valuable for a
| livable city.
|
| Getting to work without car requires good public transport.
| Again, some European cities very good at this.
| MiroslavPokorny wrote:
| I have watched a few videos on YT of people riding or walking
| around Tokyo and other cities. I think its a good example of what
| life there is really like in terms of seeing the environment,
| cleanliness, beauty, nature, buildings and more.
|
| The only people in the background that I could see were people,
| young and old, travelling to and from school, offices, workplaces
| and so on.
|
| The video was long and if i were to travel one day to Tokyo i
| would definitely follow the same route. Fresh air, nature,
| backstreets, all sorts of engineering and views.
|
| How is it possible that a city of 35M in the heart of Tokyo, he
| barely passed a few bicycles and people outdoors enjoying life
| during a trip that went all over the place for hours ?
|
| Is that living ?
| num42 wrote:
| > 4. Maintain manners in shared spaces
|
| Before reading the article, I guessed that it would ultimately be
| about human cooperation. Most discussions about human activities
| seem to come back to how people work together and respect shared
| spaces.
|
| I also think this idea extends to environmental problems. In the
| end, they still boil down to human cooperation. If we want to
| solve environmental problems, we first have to solve problems of
| human cooperation. Simply put, to reduce conflict between humans
| and nature, we must first reduce conflict among humans.
| MiroslavPokorny wrote:
| What do you call the many employees who dont go home at 5 but
| stay because the culture requires them to wait for the more
| seniors to leave first ?
|
| Is that respect ?
| mc3301 wrote:
| I call it, "people who don't know better continuing to talk
| about this out-dated concept."
|
| Yes, it still exists. It is also slowly going away, just like
| mandatory drinking parties.
| richardatlarge wrote:
| Quaint article you won't see in a few years, when everything with
| be about weather and climate. Nothing else will matter. Welcome
| to the apocalypse
| pezezin wrote:
| I have been living in the inaka for 8 years now and I always
| laugh at this kind of articles. They only focus on the core areas
| of Tokyo, Osaka, and a few big others cities, and forget to
| mention that outside of those areas the whole country is just
| endless urban sprawl of the ugliest, soulless cities you can
| imagine.
| ryan_lane wrote:
| This article is specifically about its most livable cities. Why
| would you expect them to discuss the cities people don't want
| to live in? Every country has plenty of these. The point is to
| show the things that make a place livable, not to show all the
| ways a place isn't.
| pezezin wrote:
| Because these articles always talk about the good parts and
| never mention the bad parts which make up the vast majority
| of the country.
| JCharante wrote:
| just don't live in the countryside then, there's a reason their
| population is decreasing
| burnerzzzzz wrote:
| this sets the bar very low. why would bbc not just go one of
| Europes many bicycle friendly cities?
| adamgoodapp wrote:
| There are too many people that don't need taking elevators at
| busy stations. The amount of times I had to cary a pram up the
| stairs because waiting was too long.
| languagelearner wrote:
| You can get this in Morocco yet there's never any articles about
| that ... it's almost like they're leaving out a major reason why
| they like Japan and it's not that the cities are walkable.
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