[HN Gopher] In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a ...
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       In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue
        
       Author : PaulHoule
       Score  : 56 points
       Date   : 2026-04-13 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
        
       | doctorpangloss wrote:
       | everything that goes into real life is an aesthetic experience.
       | it's not complicated. imo, you can either literally hide things
       | from the public, or aesthetic concerns, like whether or not a
       | piece of infrastructure's exterior is physically beautiful &
       | attractive, becomes the #1 priority.
        
       | mikaeluman wrote:
       | The dirty secret is of course that the Danish power grid would be
       | totally unusable without the base power provided from Sweden and
       | Norway.
       | 
       | They almost suffered a catastrophic shutdown a year or two ago
       | and the situation has not improved
        
         | ceejayoz wrote:
         | Is that really a "dirty secret"?
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe_Synchronous...
         | exists for good reason.
        
           | tensor wrote:
           | The power grids of US states are similarly linked. Very
           | dirty.
        
             | crooked-v wrote:
             | Except for Texas, which decided as a state that avoiding
             | federal regulation was worth people dying every winter from
             | power outages.
        
               | karamanolev wrote:
               | I'm not a fan of Texan electrical isolationism, but
               | "people dying every winter from power outages" is
               | stretching it a bit...
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | Every winter is a stretch, yes.
               | 
               | But they did get a big warning shot in 1989 and 2011, and
               | ignored those lessons for cost reasons. A couple hundred
               | people died.
        
               | amarant wrote:
               | Which actually works out to rather more than one person
               | per winter, when averaged out.
        
               | card_zero wrote:
               | Like all the Canadians who die every winter in the
               | Halifax explosion of 1917.
        
               | amarant wrote:
               | Yes great example, it's actually super comparable because
               | it also happened twice, was entirely predictable and
               | preventable, but silly politicians decided to save money
               | instead.
        
         | tensor wrote:
         | The only dirty secret is that humans are happy to kill future
         | generations as the effects of the oil economy will only
         | minimally affect the people alive today.
        
         | ethan_smith wrote:
         | The Nordic grid was designed to work as an interconnected
         | system though - Danish wind exports and Norwegian/Swedish hydro
         | imports balance each other out. Calling it a "dirty secret"
         | makes it sound like a failure when it's actually the intended
         | architecture. Denmark is frequently a net electricity exporter.
        
         | matthewdgreen wrote:
         | That's like pointing out that Rhode Island isn't designed to be
         | a self-sufficient grid.
        
       | OutOfHere wrote:
       | Denmark could use floating sea solar.
        
         | dathinab wrote:
         | if there where an issue yes,
         | 
         | but it doesn't look like there actually is a major issues. A
         | look at satellite images it looks more like a problem for a
         | handful of people across all of Denmark which then is
         | misrepresented by populist, to push anti-solar propaganda.
         | 
         | (Oh, and we don't even know how much the people in Hjolderup do
         | resent it. Like seriously, they might even have put the solar
         | panels there them-self to make money, idk.. Because
         | conveniently the article shows pictures of Hjolderup to invoke
         | a felling of how terrible it is, but never any interviews or
         | options with anyone _from_ Hjolderup. )
        
       | gritzko wrote:
       | Lived there. Baltic weather, not too sunny. Must be a great place
       | for wind generation though.
        
         | ahartmetz wrote:
         | The world's largest wind power company, Vestas, is from
         | Denmark.
        
       | pfdietz wrote:
       | Northern Europe really is the energy armpit of the post-fossil
       | world, although more so away from coasts.
        
       | SoftTalker wrote:
       | Denmark is a poor location for solar. They are pretty far north
       | and don't have a lot of sunny days that are good for solar
       | generation. When they do, those peaks drive energy prices
       | negative. From the article: _Over the next 10 years, the official
       | expectation is a very large rise in the amount of solar produced.
       | But that kind of clashes with the reality on the ground - they
       | can't make money_
        
         | dathinab wrote:
         | from the article which uses intentionally deceptive photography
         | angles to paint a very different picture, yes
         | 
         | more interesting is, if that is actually true. Or only true
         | because idk. the investors also bought the land and they
         | profits are used to amortize the land buying cost etc.
        
         | delusional wrote:
         | That's a terrible argument on the face of it. "They can't make
         | any energy, but also they make so much energy they can't use it
         | all".
         | 
         | I actually live in Denmark, and we can produce solar energy
         | just fine. My dad installed rooftop solar 10 years ago, and
         | that thing has 90% of his electricity usage since then. It's
         | still producing at around 85% capacity too.
        
           | littlestymaar wrote:
           | > that thing has 90% of his electricity usage
           | 
           | How is that supposed to work with cloudy days with barely 7
           | hours of daylight in winter?
        
             | detourdog wrote:
             | In New England it works fine and we project 3 hours of
             | production during the winter months. Not sure what
             | Denmark's latitude is, but 7 hours of production is not
             | needed.
        
               | littlestymaar wrote:
               | New England is Spain in terms of latitude.
               | 
               | Americans tend to forget how far north Europe is compared
               | to the US.
        
               | t-writescode wrote:
               | Great Britain, even more North, has viable solar on its
               | Southern edge.
        
             | t-writescode wrote:
             | Solar has always been a part of a wholistic strategy. We've
             | known this ever since the sun went down at night and we had
             | to compensate for it.
        
         | ZeroGravitas wrote:
         | Far north places have long summer days. This doesn't align well
         | with the winter heating needs but it does balance really well
         | with wind generation which peaks in winter.
        
         | fritzo wrote:
         | If it's a poor location for photovoltaics, it's exactly as a
         | poor for photosynthesis
        
           | amarant wrote:
           | It's very seasonal for both. But we're currently better at
           | storing wheat for 6 months than we are at storing electricity
           | for a similar period.
        
           | PaulHoule wrote:
           | In most places photosynthesis is limited by (1) the
           | availability of water and (2) the availability of bio-
           | available Nitrogen. Sunlight is less limiting by far.
        
         | ninalanyon wrote:
         | Latitude is not everything. Oslo, which is further north than
         | all of Denmark gets more insolation than Hamburg, which is
         | further south than all of Denmark.
         | 
         | And don't forget that storage is getting cheaper so it will get
         | more and more practical to save a some of that midday solar
         | energy to be used in the evening.
        
       | aaronbrethorst wrote:
       | One interesting detail about Denmark's renewable energy
       | infrastructure mix is that Vestas, the largest wind turbine
       | manufacturer in the world, is a cornerstone of Danish industry.
       | Note in the article that wind supplies about 40% of Denmark's
       | electrical needs, and that the populist right party mentioned in
       | the article doesn't attack wind turbines, despite the antipathy
       | that other (supposedly populist) rightwing figures do in other
       | countries.
        
       | darth_avocado wrote:
       | This would've been a non issue if human beings worked together as
       | a species, but we don't. There is plenty of space on the planet
       | where no one lives and nothing thrives that could be converted
       | massive solar farms that power the planet.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Transmitting that energy from where nobody lives to where
         | people do live becomes the problem with that.
        
           | TimorousBestie wrote:
           | Buckmister Fuller envisioned a worldwide high-voltage
           | transmission network implemented with 1980's technology,
           | there just isn't the worldwide political will or cooperation
           | to build it.
        
           | ahartmetz wrote:
           | It could possibly be combined with a solution to the storage
           | problem: store the energy in some transportable chemical form
           | like hydrogen, methane or the electrolyte of a redox flow
           | battery.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | Yeah possibly. Synthetic hydrocarbon fuel that's already
             | compatible with transportation infrastructure and energy
             | consumers might be the best bet.
        
           | Sharlin wrote:
           | Building HVDC lines from North Africa to Europe, for example,
           | wouldn't be a huge feat of civil engineering. Rather standard
           | stuff, really.
        
             | dathinab wrote:
             | we don't need something that long distance at all
             | 
             | EU has enough areas with sparse population and not that
             | much nature which also are south enough to have it work out
             | well with solar panels of the current generations.
             | 
             | And besides that even most EU countries have enough places
             | in them to still put a lot of solar panels without much
             | issues and/or replacing fields.
             | 
             | going as far as North Africa is a bit too far to be
             | convenient for power transport
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | "from North Africa to Europe" is, to be clear, ~9 miles
               | in spots.
        
             | ninalanyon wrote:
             | Spain and Morocco already have a 1.4 GW DC interconnect and
             | the XLinks project intends to connect Morocco and the UK.
        
           | darth_avocado wrote:
           | > Transmitting that energy from where nobody lives to where
           | people do live becomes the problem with that.
           | 
           | That's kind of what we do today for pretty much everything.
           | Most of the population on the planet doesn't live near oil
           | rigs, refineries, solar farms, power plants or wind. In fact
           | most of the population doesn't live near where we produce our
           | food or most of the things we need for survival.
        
           | dathinab wrote:
           | in the distances we speak about we do so all the time with
           | more centralized energy sources (like e.g. nuklear) due to
           | their centralized nature
           | 
           | the issue is less the transport distances but changes in
           | "from where to where" sometimes needing some
           | extensions/improvements to the power grid. Through commonly
           | in ways which anyway make sense and all pretty much
           | "standard" solutions well understood. Through there are some
           | more complicated exceptions to that.
           | 
           | EDIT: "distances we speak about" assumed less many local less
           | dense populate/suitable spots across the EU, not a mega
           | project like a energy pipeline from North Afrika.
        
           | jmward01 wrote:
           | I've been watching the math of batteries and cargo ships and
           | we may not be too far from shipping electrons generated in
           | the Sahara to the UK and Europe at a reasonable price. That
           | totally changes the game if you have cargo ships moving to
           | where the power will be needed. I can imagine these ships
           | going to where the weather is predicted to cause an issue to
           | help even out the grid and just in general creating a
           | responsive base load for the world. It sounds like sci-fi,
           | but with the direction batteries have gone it isn't that
           | crazy anymore.
        
             | etiam wrote:
             | Does it still work out if you take into account the
             | insurance premiums for a cargo ship stacked with batteries?
             | Can't imagine the fire hazard is pretty.
        
           | ninalanyon wrote:
           | The only real problems with long distance electricity
           | transmission are political and to a lesser extent financial.
           | Technically it is solved problem.
           | 
           | The Desertec project could have turned a relatively small
           | patch of Libyan desert into a solar farm that could supply
           | all of Europe's electricity except that politics makes it
           | impossible.
        
         | moffers wrote:
         | We work together pretty well. From a 20,000 foot level maybe it
         | looks like chaos and like a central guiding hand would make
         | everything better. But, two people working together is easier
         | to direct than 100,000 people (or more!). Unpacking this gives
         | us the wonders of the economics and behavioral psychology. I'd
         | say, all things considered, we could be doing a hell of a lot
         | worse on cooperation with each other.
        
         | dathinab wrote:
         | look at satellite images of Denmark or the village in question
         | 
         | - that village is the exception, not the norm at all
         | 
         | - that village is in a "small" (on agricultural scale) strip of
         | solar panels, around which there are green fields over green
         | fields over green field ....
         | 
         | - the photos are deceptive, the first is from the start of the
         | strip to the end and contains the huge majority of all solar
         | panels in like a 50km? 100km? radius. The second photo does not
         | show the village but a separate house up the street, if the
         | photo where in a bit more flat angle you would see a normal
         | filed behind the solar panels. The village itself has a "strip"
         | of (small) green fields around it which should make it less bad
         | to live there.
         | 
         | I mean don't get me wrong it probably sucks for the home owners
         | in Hjolderup. But it's not representative for the situation in
         | Denmark at all.
        
       | chvid wrote:
       | Denmark has undergone the same sort of right wing populism that
       | has gone through most of the west. Including rhetorical tricks
       | like this.
       | 
       | Though the recent election is slight swing to the left, and the
       | newly created right wing parties are already undergoing various
       | forms of internal meltdowns, making a center left government
       | friendly green energy projects most likely.
        
       | dathinab wrote:
       | not buying that this isn't anti renewable propaganda for the US
       | 
       | the images in the article looks bad
       | 
       | until you take a short look at satellite images and realize:
       | 
       | - it's not the norm but the exception
       | 
       | - the photos are made to make it look maximally bad in a
       | deceptive/manipulative way,
       | 
       | and that is even in context, that Denmark is a special case in
       | that it both quite small and has little "dead" (not
       | agriculturally efficiently usable land). And many old
       | "culturally" protected houses where fitting solar on top of it is
       | far more complicated/inefficient. Don't get me wrong it isn't the
       | only special case, but there are very many countries which don't
       | really have such issues.
       | 
       | Also quite interestingly this "iron fields" can be "not bad" from
       | a nature perspective, at least compared to mono-culture with
       | pesticide usage. Due to the plant and animal live below them.
       | Through that is assuming people do extra steps to prevent that
       | live.
        
         | mellosouls wrote:
         | "not buying that this isn't anti renewable propaganda for the
         | US"
         | 
         | Its the Guardian so that is a _very_ unlikely motivation.
        
           | Arn_Thor wrote:
           | _Something_ motivates them, though. They have been on a wild
           | anti-solar bend the last year or more. Dozens of articles,
           | all with the same anti-solar NIMBY bent
        
           | zipy124 wrote:
           | The guardian have previously been found to generate a
           | significant amount of ad revenue from fossil fuel companies.
           | They aren't politically aligned with it, but are financially.
           | Remember that a large portion of the left in the UK are also
           | anti-solar since they are pro-green nature and they have yet
           | to make a choice on this.
           | 
           | P.s I am pro renewable and pro-solar/wind/nuclear just to
           | clarify that this is nothing about my personal beliefs.
        
             | signatoremo wrote:
             | Cite your source. The Guardian stopped accepting ads from
             | the fossil industry 6 years ago - [0]
             | 
             | It is convenient to be suspicious against news that isn't
             | aligned with your views.
             | 
             | [0] - https://www.theguardian.com/help/insideguardian/2020/
             | jan/29/...
        
         | mort96 wrote:
         | I can't even read it because you either have to accept all
         | tracking or pay a subscription fee. Pretty sure that's against
         | the GDPR? Anyway, not a good look.
        
           | soco wrote:
           | Isn't GDPR an EU thing?
        
             | mort96 wrote:
             | Well an EU/EEA thing. And I'm in the EEA, so it applies
             | when I visit The Guardian.
        
           | masfuerte wrote:
           | It works fine with js disabled.
        
         | testing22321 wrote:
         | 100%
         | 
         | It also presents the draw man that solar can only go in huge
         | fields that would otherwise grow food.
         | 
         | There are plenty of rooftops and car parks that can be covered
         | in solar to excellent benefit.
         | 
         | Ie https://www.eventplanner.net/news/10582_largest-solar-
         | carpor...
        
           | ddellacosta wrote:
           | > It also presents the draw man that solar can only go in
           | huge fields that would otherwise grow food.
           | 
           | > There are plenty of rooftops and car parks that can be
           | covered in solar to excellent benefit.
           | 
           | It's worth calling this approach out too:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics
        
           | dathinab wrote:
           | and field which have been damaged due to overuse and
           | incorrect handling and preferable shouldn't be used for the
           | next ~50 year
        
         | zolland wrote:
         | The satellite photos of Hjolderup look worse than the photos in
         | the article to me... the photos in the article seem like a fair
         | representation of the consequences of installing solar fields
         | like this--your house and town end up surrounded by solar
         | panels.
        
           | chrysoprace wrote:
           | Zoom out a bit though, and you quickly realise it's not the
           | norm. There is vastly more farm land throughout the country
           | and Hjolderup is the exception, not the rule.
        
         | ZeroGravitas wrote:
         | There is an art to taking pictures of solar farms from exactly
         | the right angle so that the panels seem continuous, often
         | making use of deep shadows to cover the gaps.
         | 
         | It's similar to the telephoto shots of wind farms taken from
         | far away that make them seem really close together.
        
         | lukeify wrote:
         | > - it's not the norm but the exception
         | 
         | I bet makes the person dealing with the outcome of being
         | surrounded by them feel a lot better.
        
       | Flavius wrote:
       | We currently use vast amounts of land growing corn and other
       | crops specifically for biodiesel. Solar panels produce over 100x
       | more energy per hectare than corn ethanol, even in countries like
       | Denmark with limited sunlight. It makes perfect sense to
       | repurpose some biofuel farmland for solar panels. That's just
       | efficient land use, not an attack on agriculture.
        
         | dathinab wrote:
         | > corn and other crops specifically for biodiesel.
         | 
         | honestly that always sounded very misguided to me
         | 
         | fields are not perfectly renewable, biomas gets removed from
         | them and fertilizers can only help so much in any given time
         | frame
         | 
         | mostly corn/raps mono-culture can make that easily far worse
         | 
         | and not needing to import food can safe a lot of energy too
         | 
         | also as you mentioned, modern solar panels seem overall more
         | efficient
         | 
         | in difference to solar or wind, biodiesel just seem a very bad
         | choice
        
       | karmakurtisaani wrote:
       | Yes to progress, no to cheap right-wing populism with no real
       | solutions to any problem. How about that?
        
       | ls612 wrote:
       | Regardless of your political beliefs I would hope you could agree
       | that using arable land for solar power is dumb. Denmark is almost
       | entirely arable land and relatively small to boot so they should
       | be using more compact power sources.
        
         | lukeify wrote:
         | Agreed. I'm very pro-solar but there should be incentives for
         | residential solar and solar on commercial buildings first.
         | Covering up farmland and natural environments should be a last
         | resort.
        
         | sophacles wrote:
         | Why would I agree to such a stupid position?
         | 
         | Here in the us we could swap acres of corn used only for
         | ethanol production for acres of solar panels that produce a
         | 100x more power annually.
        
         | rcxdude wrote:
         | It's a hell of a lot less dumb than growing crops for biofuel
         | on it, to start. And it's not even an either/or situation, you
         | can do both on the same piece of land. I think there is plenty
         | of 'arable' land for which the most productive thing it could
         | be doing is solar power.
        
       | Arn_Thor wrote:
       | The Guardian continues its anti-solar crusade. For some
       | inexplicable reason
        
         | Aldipower wrote:
         | So, looking on things from another angle is called "a crusade"
         | nowadays. Yep, it is like it is.
        
       | l5870uoo9y wrote:
       | The absurdity of the climate debate is that "we" talk almost
       | constantly about two energy sources (wind and solar) that in no
       | way have the potential to provide the stable baseload power
       | required to electrify society. And unless nature has blessed your
       | country with abundant geothermal or hydroelectric power, that
       | leaves you with the following options: oil, coal, or nuclear
       | power.
        
         | rickydroll wrote:
         | The addition of batteries as an intermittent power source
         | brings us closer to 100% renewable energy and allows us to
         | incrementally decommission dirty plants, such as coal- and oil-
         | fired plants.
         | 
         | The design goal of adding a battery to grid power sources is to
         | capture energy that would otherwise be lost when demand is
         | lower than generation. In addition to capturing excess
         | production of wind or solar-derived energy, one could capture
         | unused energy from our current baseload generating plants
         | overnight. We could also, this would also let us capture the
         | energy that would otherwise be wasted by unnecessary nighttime
         | lighting.
        
         | recursive wrote:
         | Wind and solar can provide enough energy. You may be referring
         | to their well-publicized variability. Energy storage can solve
         | that.
        
           | card_zero wrote:
           | The next phase in these conversations is usually to argue
           | back and forth about whether energy storage is going to be
           | good enough soon, or never will be, or already is. You're
           | naive if you think your storage solution can handle the
           | massive reserves required, unless you're not naive for
           | technical reasons. Don't ask me, this part is always
           | inconclusive.
        
             | recursive wrote:
             | Ok, I guess we'll never know then.
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | Denmark is linked to the Norwegian grid, which is essentially
         | all hydropower [1]. It imports baseload when needed and exports
         | cheap solar power when not.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Norway
        
       | danw1979 wrote:
       | I took a stroll recently through the countryside around Swindon,
       | UK, where there's a massive new solar farm on formerly arable
       | land. One thing I only just realised was how the view from the
       | ground is so badly affected when you're down amidst the endless
       | rows of panels - they reach well above head height.
       | 
       | It's basically like walking through a industrial estate, just
       | with more grass in between. Really very bleak.
       | 
       | Give me an onshore wind farm over this.
        
         | teamonkey wrote:
         | Are you _sure_ it's arable land? The majority of solar farms in
         | the UK are built on low-grade land that aren't suitable for
         | growing food.
        
           | ghighi7878 wrote:
           | Green grass is still good to look at.
        
             | teamonkey wrote:
             | There is grass. Grass is allowed to grow around the panels.
             | It's great for biodiversity.
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | Needs a beauty strip of trees around the panels.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | Yeah, 'cause shade is precisely what's needed for a solar
           | farm
        
             | swsieber wrote:
             | Around, not over. Trees are a well studied thing where can
             | you pick different species for different characteristics,
             | like height, and growth speed.
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | TIL shadows from trees only project down directly under
               | the tree and never project away from the tree itself. My
               | entire life experience has been rendered useless.
        
           | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
           | Most of the new solar farms do plant them, it just takes
           | decades for trees to grow big enough to hide the panels
           | 
           | Personally I like the panels
        
         | nitwit005 wrote:
         | That just sounds like endless corn fields, only solar panels.
        
           | card_zero wrote:
           | I don't much like walking through corn fields either, it's
           | heavy going, all that trampling. Farmers should just grow
           | pretty flowers, small ones.
        
         | simmerup wrote:
         | Climate change is an existential threat, it's switch to green
         | power asap or burn the world our kids will live in
        
           | carefree-bob wrote:
           | It's hysterical claims like this that cause so many problems
           | for climate researchers and policy makers when the doomsday
           | scenario fails to materialize. And then that's when you get
           | newspaper clippings about the melting of the arctic sea ice
           | by the year 2000 and everyone laughs and then discounts the
           | whole thing.
           | 
           | Please don't do this. It is not an "existential threat"
           | outside of various fundraising pamphlets and political
           | organizations, and they exploit science for political gain at
           | the cost of the credibility of the whole enterprise.
        
             | simmerup wrote:
             | It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential bit
             | happens in 100 years so of course you're not going to see
             | it materialize over night
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential
               | bit happens in 100 years_
               | 
               | No, it's not, and no, we don't know that. Humans will
               | survive climate change. Rich countries will survive, too.
               | 
               | We will all suffer. Economically, healthwise and
               | aesthetically. But that's not existential. Framing it as
               | such is disingenuous and counterproductive.
        
               | simmerup wrote:
               | RCP8.5 is pretty much ruled out by people as unlikely for
               | some reason, even as we have the major super power on the
               | planet pulling out of the Paris agreement on climate
               | change.
               | 
               | There is clearly a temperature at which this planet will
               | not support human life, and we could definitely get the
               | planet to that temperature if we don't change course and
               | reach net zero.
               | 
               | Saying its not an existential threat is just wild to me.
        
             | card_zero wrote:
             | I've never been able to decide whether it is or not. I'm
             | still vaguely scared of the clathrate gun, permafrost
             | releasing extra CO2, and phytoplankton shrinking under
             | ocean acidification so we can't have as much oxygen as
             | we're accustomed to.
             | 
             | Edit: one of those crossfire situations where the downvotes
             | could be coming from either direction. I'm going to assume
             | they mean "don't be scared".
        
             | nixpulvis wrote:
             | I don't think you're qualified to make this assessment. If
             | a large majority of the scientific community is treating it
             | and calling it an existential threat, I'm tempted to agree.
             | In fact, I think most widely held scientific stances on
             | this are meant to be balanced and as agreeable as possible,
             | so I personally believe it's likely to be worse than the
             | mainstream opinion.
             | 
             | Climate migration is already an issue. Extreme climate
             | events are already increasingly problematic. Will
             | civilization collapse in the next 50 years. Almost
             | certainly not, but will we be better off then than we are
             | now? Unless we rapidly increase the rate at which we
             | address this issue, I don't see how that happens either.
        
           | m4rtink wrote:
           | I would actually phrase is a "fossil fuels are an existential
           | threat" - regardless on how climmate change will impact us,
           | it is IMHO enough to see the destructions people are capable
           | due to fossil fuel money & it makes 100% sense to get ridd of
           | any dependency on fossil fuels ASAP.
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | How much extra on your electricity bill are you prepared to pay
         | to not see it?
        
         | asdff wrote:
         | So much spare land in flat roofs in industrial and warehouse
         | space but solar installations there, if they are there, seem to
         | be limited to covering utility bills for the building over
         | generating surplus for the grid. Much of the roof will remain
         | uncovered, along with all the periphery lot, parking, truck
         | yard, and access roads. No one would be complaining about any
         | view there...
        
       | dev_l1x_be wrote:
       | Energy density is a real problem.
        
       | jmward01 wrote:
       | We are at a moment where we are finding more and more ways to
       | integrate solar in. It is likely we will go 'too far' in some
       | ways but hopefully over the next few decades we will see a lot
       | more well integrated solutions like vertical panels complementing
       | farming and solar integrated, potentially with lower efficiency
       | but also less impact, into things like building surfaces and
       | other non-traditional places. Getting a diversity of options out
       | there, and iterating on them, is key to the next phase where
       | solar is everywhere reasonable by default and well integrated in
       | to daily life.
        
         | iso1631 wrote:
         | I live in the UK in a town of 10,000 people, so say 4,000
         | houses (probably far higher than there are). If every house had
         | a 10kWp (way more than most installs) that would be 40MW
         | generation.
         | 
         | On the outskirts of town we have a 40MW solar farm about the
         | same size as the golf course. Most people have no idea it's
         | there, it uses barely any land compared to the rest of farmland
         | around here. That generates about 40GWh a year.
         | 
         | The cost of renting the land it's on each year is about PS20k a
         | year, or 50p per MWh, basically nothing. Land is effectively
         | free compared to the value from "farming the sun", it's far
         | cheaper than the scaffolding to put 8kWp on a roof
        
       | jmyeet wrote:
       | You don't even have to go to the issue of climate change to
       | defned this anymore. The far more relevant factor is the cost of
       | energy as well as national security.
       | 
       | Europe as a whole has engaged in greenwashing where instead of
       | really solving their emissions and energy problems has simply
       | offshored those problems to poorer countries. If a neighbour uses
       | fossil fuels for electricity generation and you buy their excess
       | electrricity, you're not greener. You've just cooked the books.
       | 
       | People who might say "when I go outside at this very specific
       | place solar panels look ugly" should carry no weight when those
       | solar panels (in Denmark's case) covers 0.2% of rural land. Go
       | somewhere else.
       | 
       | Unsurprisingly, China is leading here by making solar panel
       | installations have multiple uses like reversing desertification
       | and use vegetation growth from the shade and the water used to
       | clean the panels as a place for grazing livestock. Obviously
       | Europe in general and Denmark in particular doesn't have deserts,
       | of course.
       | 
       | I'm generally a fan of putting solar panels on non-arable land.
       | In the US, that's much of the southwest, which incidentally also
       | has very good solar yields because of the high amount of
       | sunshine. There are whole areas of grass plains that can't be
       | used for traditional farming as we discovered in the 1930s. It
       | was called the Dust Bowl. There was a famous book written about
       | it (ie the Grapes of Wrath).
       | 
       | What I don't understand is why we don't build more solar around
       | or over highways. This is already public land and it's land not
       | doing anything else. The solar wouldn't interfere with the core
       | purpose either. I guess people want solar panels tucked away
       | where few can see them.
        
       | chrysoprace wrote:
       | For decades I've been pointing to Denmark (partly out of national
       | pride) as a successful model for renewables as Australia dragged
       | its feet on the issue due to fossil fuel industry lobbying.
       | 
       | The positive I take from the article is that Denmark is
       | successfully diversifying its renewable energy sources, something
       | that's needed while battery infrastructure is built to scale, and
       | I sincerely hope it doesn't become a serious political issue like
       | it's been here in Australia for decades (and continues to be
       | today).
        
       | rcxdude wrote:
       | I always find it kind of ironic when the more allegedly
       | libertarian pro-farmer side of the political spectrum start to
       | get really concerned with how farmers use their land. And a solar
       | farm has to be the most inoffensive thing to live next to, I was
       | frankly shocked that it was something that appeared on a house
       | survey result as "developments nearby you might be concerned
       | about".
        
       | jeppester wrote:
       | I live in a small Danish town that would have very likely been
       | surrounded by solar panels by now if we had not put up a fight.
       | 
       | The problem is that these projects are pitched to land owners, to
       | be placed in areas they can't see from their own windows. Those
       | who live nearby are not involved until the approval is a
       | formality (or presented as such). Often times the investors will
       | also pay certain house owners for their silence, making the
       | locals suspicious of each other.
       | 
       | They do this because obviously no one likes someone from the
       | outside to take away the green* surroundings that are a big part
       | of why people live there - and in the process lowering the value
       | of everyone's houses.
       | 
       | I can't comprehend why someone would think that this was a good
       | way of rolling out solar.
       | 
       | I agree that we are going to need solar as part of the mix. It
       | would just be much better to start with the locations where
       | people do NOT want to live, for instance next to motorways.
       | 
       | Luckily I think we are slowly moving in that direction due to all
       | the resistance.
       | 
       | *I'm well aware that fields are heavy industry, but they are
       | plants and rarely 2,5 meters tall.
        
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