[HN Gopher] German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and R...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       German police name alleged leaders of GandCrab and REvil ransomware
       groups
        
       Author : Bender
       Score  : 244 points
       Date   : 2026-04-06 13:52 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (krebsonsecurity.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (krebsonsecurity.com)
        
       | alexmocki wrote:
       | This reads less like "hacking" and more like an optimized
       | business.
       | 
       | Clear specialization, outsourcing, and reinvestment -- very
       | similar to how startups scale.
        
         | raverbashing wrote:
         | Ah yes a business like the mafia
        
           | tgv wrote:
           | The parent commenter has apparently never heard of organized
           | crime.
        
         | kgeist wrote:
         | Found his record in Russia's official company registry. This is
         | what he officially does as an entepreneur:
         | 56.10 -- Restaurant activities and food delivery services
         | 47.23 -- Retail sale of fish, crustaceans, and mollusks in
         | specialized stores            47.25.12 -- Retail sale of beer
         | in specialized stores            47.25.2 -- Retail sale of soft
         | drinks in specialized stores            47.29.39 -- Retail sale
         | of other food products in specialized stores, not included in
         | other groups            68.20 -- Lease and management of own or
         | leased real estate
         | 
         | Money is reinvested into selling beer and fish :)
         | Interestingly, he registered all that in 2019, just when the
         | ransoms started.
        
           | ivan_gammel wrote:
           | Classic money laundering.
        
           | tokai wrote:
           | > 56.10 -- Restaurant activities and food delivery services
           | 
           | That one is a classic for russian criminals and warlords.
        
             | randomNumber7 wrote:
             | This has nothing to do with russia. All over the world it's
             | an obvious choice to use it for money laundering.
        
               | tokai wrote:
               | Yevgeny Prigozhin was well known for his restaurants and
               | catering businesses.
        
               | randomNumber7 wrote:
               | And you don't understand simple logic.
        
               | tokai wrote:
               | And you should reread the HN guidelines.
        
           | ecshafer wrote:
           | I find it entertaining that even as part of a Russian hacking
           | gang, the real threat is the Russian tax authorities.
           | Regardless of how you got the money, need to pay the taxes.
        
             | diath wrote:
             | That's not specific to Russia, almost every country in the
             | world requires you to report illegal income for tax
             | purposes, including the US.
        
         | wat10000 wrote:
         | Go look at the al Qaeda emails recovered from the raid that
         | killed bin Laden and you'll find all the same stuff. Turns out
         | that the way businesses operate is just a good way to operate
         | human organizations in general, whether their goal is to sell
         | widgets or blow up infidels.
        
       | Phelinofist wrote:
       | Spiegel recently did a video on them:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuwRrqM6H1M
        
       | nailer wrote:
       | Feels odd for an infosec blog to use 'doxxing' this way. Doxxing
       | is generally considered to be unethical exposure of personal
       | information.
       | 
       | Identifying a criminal is ethical.
        
         | cucumber3732842 wrote:
         | >Identifying a criminal is ethical.
         | 
         | This outsourcing of one's morals to the state is excessive even
         | by already high western white collar internet standards.
         | 
         | Now, make no mistake, these guys are up to no good and probably
         | should be identified and prosecuted, but to just declare that a
         | bad thing is now good because government is doing it is
         | basically an abdication of one's moral compass. At best this is
         | still a bad thing but a necessary one because all the other
         | options are worse. Like shooting someone in self defense, or
         | putting someone in a cage for doing sufficiently bad things.
         | 
         | Edit: I'll admit I played too loose with ethics vs morality
         | here, but still the point stands.
        
           | wat10000 wrote:
           | "Identifying a criminal" doesn't imply that it's done by the
           | government, and being done by the government doesn't imply
           | that it's done to a criminal. This comment seems like quite a
           | leap.
        
             | jstanley wrote:
             | It's the government who defines what "criminal" means.
        
               | wat10000 wrote:
               | Not necessarily. I'm free to make my own determination on
               | the matter.
        
               | zaphar wrote:
               | You are certainly free to make up your own definitions
               | for words and speak a dialect that is niche but you will
               | not be effectively communicating when you do. By commonly
               | understood definition criminality is a matter of law.
        
               | wat10000 wrote:
               | Well, the dude here hasn't been put on trial, let alone
               | convicted, as far as I can tell from the article. So he's
               | not officially considered a criminal by a government. Yet
               | we all seem comfortable calling him one, so I'd say that
               | it is not, in fact, commonly understood to be exclusively
               | a matter of law.
        
           | dmos62 wrote:
           | Innocent until proven guilty (in a court of law)?
        
           | wswin wrote:
           | not the state, but the law
        
           | gigatexal wrote:
           | ethics and morality are not interchangeable are they?
           | 
           | anyway individuals willingly give to teh state some autonomy
           | in return for the safety of governance... that's the social
           | contract free people have with government
           | 
           | "doxxing" a Russian ransomware group is the kind thing to do.
           | bombing them out of existence is within the remit of the
           | range of ideas a government could resort to...
        
             | mc32 wrote:
             | Not disagreeing with your preface but I was under the
             | impression that while it took governments some time to
             | figure things out, kinetic bombing in retaliation for
             | cyberwarfare was pretty much ruled out unless the
             | cyberwarfare results in direct mass casualties (for example
             | cyber sabotaging a refinery results in an explosion which
             | results in casualties.). Else we'd have bombed North Korea,
             | China, Ukraine, Russia, Romania, etc.
        
               | gigatexal wrote:
               | Yeah bombing as a counter to cyber attacks is a last
               | ditch Pandora's box thing
        
           | Yokohiii wrote:
           | Certainly, criminals also have a right to privacy. However,
           | the limited publication of personal data of criminals by law
           | enforcement is generally a legally legitimate measure.
           | Doxxing, on the other hand, is generally a process that
           | violates the fundamental right to privacy.
        
             | cucumber3732842 wrote:
             | >criminals
             | 
             | >law
             | 
             | >legally
             | 
             | You keep using these words but it causes circular logic as
             | those are all defined by the same entity that is acting
             | unilaterally.
             | 
             | The action the government took was not a "good" action by
             | any moral standard. But it was perhaps the least worse
             | action available all things considered. Can't just whisk
             | people off the street in a foreign country or drone them
             | over such matters, those options would be worse.
        
               | zaphar wrote:
               | Is it your position that privacy is a right regardless of
               | any action you take? Many rights are dependent on
               | circumstance and in tension with other rights. In this
               | case I think you can make the case that their right to
               | privacy is lost.
        
               | oytis wrote:
               | Running a ransomware gang is immoral. Catching someone
               | running a ransomware gang is good. If publishing their
               | name helps catch them, it's also good. Not sure where do
               | you see the gap between legality and morality in this
               | case
        
               | flipped wrote:
               | People often forget that Threat Actors (TA) are the ones
               | keeping the infosec alive. They are doing a good job of
               | scaring people into implementing actual security
               | protocols and thereby improving everyone's security
               | posture. The whole infosec would collapse without TAs,
               | let's not forget that. They create jobs.
        
               | oytis wrote:
               | That's right. They also create jobs for police though,
               | and now German police is doing theirs
        
               | flipped wrote:
               | German govt is also one of the most corrupt and vastly
               | incompetent govt. It's run by bunch of boomers. Most of
               | the prolific ransomware gangs have terrible opsec. De-
               | anon'ing them is child's play. Most of the opsec-aware
               | TAs never even get attributed, let alone get caught for
               | any breaches.
        
               | jojomodding wrote:
               | > One of the most corrupt
               | 
               | It's on like place 10 out of 180, which makes it one of
               | the least corrupt places.
               | 
               | It also has some surprisingly non-boomer departments,
               | like the Sovereign Tech Fund. Either way you need to
               | celebrate police doing good things and immoral actors
               | being exposed, it can only have good outcomes.
               | 
               | Perhaps it deters them, or deters the next generation of
               | such hackers. Or at least it makes their life less
               | enjoyable, which is fair since they were only able to
               | afford their travels due to their illicitly acquired
               | wealth.
        
               | oytis wrote:
               | > surprisingly non-boomer departments, like the Sovereign
               | Tech Fund
               | 
               | The one that has just invested in Scala? In year 2026?
               | There are many good things about Germany, but competence
               | in tech is not one of them.
        
               | seanhunter wrote:
               | This is the "Broken Window" fallacy[1] which was
               | explained by Bastiat.
               | 
               | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_w
               | indow
        
               | flipped wrote:
               | I don't fucking care about made up terms. If you can't
               | see the actual economic growth (not some vague,
               | theoretical fallacy) they create, you're just another
               | moron in denial.
        
               | Yokohiii wrote:
               | If economic growth at all cost is the solution, then you
               | are wasting your time giving your fiction away for free.
        
               | jojomodding wrote:
               | The wildfire industry brings growth but it would be a
               | whole lot better if we didn't have wildfires.
               | 
               | The same thing is true with computers. Imagine all the
               | nice things we could have if we didn't have to worry
               | about people abusing the systems we build.
        
               | oytis wrote:
               | Well, to be honest, those old enough remember when
               | cryptography was considered someting for the military and
               | special services, and considering using encryption would
               | put you under immediate suspicion. Now we can at least
               | argue we need it to protect us from the cyber crime, even
               | if we really have privacy and free speech in mind
        
               | sho_hn wrote:
               | It's not a "made-up term", it's shorthand for a well-
               | known argument. Not allowing re-usable arguments is like
               | not allowing the use of libraries in software: It wastes
               | time better spent on moving the frontier forward.
        
               | Yokohiii wrote:
               | > You keep using these words but it causes circular logic
               | as those are all defined by the same entity that is
               | acting unilaterally.
               | 
               | It's not, in Germany we have separation of powers.
               | 
               | > The action the government took was not a "good" action
               | by any moral standard.
               | 
               | Morals aren't binary. Morals have context.
        
             | KPGv2 wrote:
             | > Doxxing, on the other hand, is generally a process that
             | violates the fundamental right to privacy.
             | 
             | It historically was used for this _exact_ case: revealing
             | someone hiding behind a pseudonym for purposes of law
             | enforcement. The term dates back to the 90s, if not
             | earlier.
             | 
             | This isn't something Gen Z made up. It's a Gen X term.
             | "Hack the gibson" era. Wargames era.
        
               | cucumber3732842 wrote:
               | Doxxing is basically a DDOS reflection attack but for
               | real violence, or threat thereof, instead of 1s and 0s.
               | 
               | I might want to do violence upon you for some reason.
               | Maybe I hate you. Maybe you're doing something that I
               | don't like. If I'm lucky I can round up half a dozen
               | buddies to help. But I don't have infinite resources and
               | infinite reach, so my capability is rather laughable
               | unless you live next door.
               | 
               | Buuuut, if I craft it just right, I can cause the state
               | with it's practically infinite resources, infinite men
               | with guns who kick in doors, etc, etc to choose to kick
               | in your door and do violence upon you. (And the request
               | usually looks a lot like doing their job for them "hey
               | look over here there's this specific person doing this
               | specific thing that you're supposed to go after", but
               | that's beside the point.)
               | 
               | Same as how if I craft a request to a 3rd party server
               | just right a few Kb of on my end can become dozens of Mb
               | on yours.
               | 
               | The German police can't reach these guys. Hence why
               | they're doxing them. They're hoping to structure things
               | such that those who can reach them respond to the request
               | (i.e. rounding up these guys will be a line item in some
               | larger geopolitical context).
        
         | moffkalast wrote:
         | I think they obviously just took it as 'exposure of personal
         | information' period.
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | > Identifying a criminal is ethical.
         | 
         | I agree that "doxxing" is being misused in TFA, but criminals
         | have privacy rights like anyone else. Violating these rights
         | requires specific justification, it's not automatically
         | ethical.
        
           | KingOfCoders wrote:
           | They put the person on a wanted list.
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | My comment isn't about this specific case. It's about the
             | general claim.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | I mean doxxing is totally incorrect. Let's say for example
           | there was a person on film near a crime scene, even though
           | the police know they weren't directly involved there is no
           | violation of privacy in the US if the police post their
           | picture and ask for them to come forward. Or even later find
           | out their name and look for them publically.
        
         | KPGv2 wrote:
         | "Doxxing" is from the 90s and was used to describe a hacker
         | unmasking another hacker so they could be arrested. That's
         | almost exactly the same usage as here.
        
           | Sharlin wrote:
           | Semantic shift happens over time. A 2026 article is supposed
           | to communicate to 2026, not 1996, readers.
        
             | randomNumber7 wrote:
             | Germany is a bit backwards.
        
               | perlgeek wrote:
               | Wut? The headline is from Krebs on Security, not from the
               | German authorities.
        
           | nailer wrote:
           | I can't find it in the jargon file:
           | http://catb.org/jargon/html/D.html
        
             | stackghost wrote:
             | It comes from leetspeak. Identity documents -> docs -> dox
        
             | mghackerlady wrote:
             | (someone really needs to make a new jargon file, if not out
             | of practicality then for archival reasons)
        
       | KingOfCoders wrote:
       | Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"?
       | 
       | [Edit] "An international search is underway for Daniil
       | Maksimovich SHCHUKIN on suspicion of numerous counts of gang-
       | related and commercial extortion using ransomware to the
       | detriment of commercial enterprises, public facilities, and
       | institutions."
        
         | mc32 wrote:
         | Unfortunately language tends to get diluted. Nowadays in pop
         | culture it means publishing anyone's personal information,
         | usually against their wishes.
        
           | KingOfCoders wrote:
           | "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful
           | tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more
           | nor less."
        
           | Aurornis wrote:
           | This does seem close to the original intent of "doxxing",
           | where information ("dox") is publicized that connects a real-
           | world identity to a previously anonymous online persona.
           | These are hackers in the classic sense who were going out of
           | their way to stay anonymous.
           | 
           | The dilution of the word doxxing has been interesting,
           | though. Some of the recent "doxxing" controversies have been
           | about figures who weren't all that anonymous to begin with.
           | The pop culture meaning has been extended to cover any
           | mention of someone's real identity at all, even if it wasn't
           | a secret.
        
             | lovich wrote:
             | Beyond diluting it also seems that people are increasingly
             | under the impression that internet rules are also the same
             | in real life.
             | 
             | I've been seeing it come up in discussions about court
             | cases where people are under the belief that requiring
             | online personalities real names in the court documents is
             | somehow illegal because it's doxxing.
        
               | ffsm8 wrote:
               | It's just the usual millennials and zoomers finding out
               | that their fantasies aren't actually how the world works
               | 
               | Most of us grew up on the Internet, and consequently our
               | world view is incredibly screwed and not particularly
               | based on facts
        
               | lovich wrote:
               | I grew up on the internet but early enough that the
               | phrase "the internet isn't real life" was bandied about,
               | which I think made it easier to understand the different
               | set of rules existing.
        
         | moomin wrote:
         | Yeah, I'm not okay with this. Doxxing is a term with an
         | extremely negative connotation and is often done to people who,
         | bluntly, weren't hiding or doing anything wrong. The correct
         | term for the same act here is either "accuse" or "unmask".
        
           | embedding-shape wrote:
           | If someone wasn't previously known, only an alias or alter-
           | ego, but you then link those together with a real-life
           | identity, that's very much the definition of "doxxing", at
           | least the original definition, maybe it's different today?
           | Positive or negative doesn't really matter, just like
           | "shooting" or "jumping" in itself isn't positive or negative,
           | it's just a verb.
        
             | usrusr wrote:
             | And if the police actually catches the accused and puts
             | them in jail, is that kidnapping? Most verbs have far more
             | semantics than just the most basic before/after state diff.
        
               | embedding-shape wrote:
               | Well, no, kidnapping is unlawful abduction. But abduction
               | is always abduction, regardless of who does it, police
               | can abduct people too, but when criminals do so, we call
               | it kidnapping, since it's illegal. Not sure what point
               | you were trying to make, but I think it failed to land
               | properly.
        
               | mschild wrote:
               | "Doxing" has negative connotations.
               | 
               | Its almost always associated with a private person (ie
               | not police or anyone of a judicial system) releasing
               | personal information with malicious intent.
               | 
               | As the person above you said, semantics are important.
               | This is a judicial system specifically searching for a
               | person they believe to have caused severe criminal harm.
        
               | mulmen wrote:
               | While I don't think this case is accurately described as
               | Doxxing I also reject the definition that the state can't
               | commit Doxxing. The reason this situation doesn't count
               | is because of due process, not simply state action. The
               | state is not infallible, regardless of what immunity may
               | try to establish.
        
               | butlike wrote:
               | The point is the outcome and magnitude of "kidnapping"
               | and "abduction" are the same, so it's not fair people are
               | treated differently if the terms are virtually
               | synonymous. The impact is the same. If it was a truly
               | just system, the people in power would subscribe to the
               | same rules they codify into law.
        
               | KPGv2 wrote:
               | I have, admittedly, only been on the Internet for thirty-
               | five years or so, but I seem to recall that a long time
               | ago reading about people "doxxing" guys who posted
               | pictures of them torturing cats and dogs.
               | 
               | "Doxxing" certainly doesn't carry a negative connotation
               | in that usage. Unless you live in a culture where
               | torturing domesticated animals is a good thing.
               | 
               | ANd I recall that, before that, hackers would doxx other
               | hackers in the 90s in order to get them arrested. Again,
               | that seems like the exact same usage as here: tying a
               | pseudonym to an IRL for purposes of law enforcement.
        
               | BurningFrog wrote:
               | Doxxing a hostile act.
               | 
               | If it's negative depends on if you think they deserve the
               | hostility.
        
               | mikkupikku wrote:
               | Most people who dox for a reason they think is justified
               | will nonetheless reject the label of doxing for what they
               | did. They'll say _" I didn't dox him, I just discovered
               | publicly available but obscure information about him and
               | posted it."_
        
               | strbean wrote:
               | There is still an inherent negative aspect to the "Don't
               | Fuck with Cats" doxxing. Vigilantes publicly revealing
               | the identity of (suspected) perpetrators can enable
               | further vigilante action, and this can cause harm to
               | innocent people if the identification was incorrect, or
               | unwittingly impede law enforcement. And that's before
               | considering whether vigilantism is inherently good or
               | bad.
               | 
               | See the canonical example of this going wrong: the Reddit
               | 'investigation' of the Boston Bomber, where someone was
               | misidentified, doxxed, and their family was harassed.
               | 
               | Of course, law enforcement is capable of making the same
               | mistakes. But ideally they have better safeguards, and
               | victims of their negligence have much better recourse.
        
               | ptero wrote:
               | > that seems like the exact same usage as here: tying a
               | pseudonym to an IRL for purposes of law enforcement.
               | 
               | I disagree. Tying a pseudonym to an IRL persona for
               | purposes of law enforcement is a part of an official
               | investigation.
               | 
               | Doxxing is specifically non-government unmasking and
               | dissemination of that tie for extrajudicial purposes,
               | almost always for harassment. There is a world of
               | difference between them and we should not fudge them
               | together with terminology. My 2c.
        
               | mulmen wrote:
               | What if the government reveals the name of a victim of
               | sexual assault? Is that doxxing? What about a political
               | rival in connection with a made up crime? What about a
               | true but benign crime such as accessing reproductive
               | healthcare?
        
             | rwmj wrote:
             | If you want an alias that's fine, just don't use it to do
             | crimes.
        
             | landl0rd wrote:
             | No, if I kidnap someone it's kidnapping. If the police
             | based on probable cause receive and execute a warrant for
             | someone's arrest, it's an arrest. This is how the state
             | monopoly on violence works.
        
               | mikkupikku wrote:
               | And if the state kills somebody without the cover of a
               | legal pretext, it's called an "extrajudicial killing"
               | rather than a murder.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrajudicial_killing#Unite
               | d_S...
        
               | a2800276 wrote:
               | More to the point, if the police or whoever shoot someone
               | in self defence, that someone is "killed". If I, or the
               | police shoot someone for fun, it's "murder". In both
               | cases the victim is "killed"
        
               | mikkupikku wrote:
               | True, self defense isn't called murder. But if the
               | government drone strikes an American citizen without a
               | trial or anything, that's "extrajudicial killing", not
               | murder.
        
           | krono wrote:
           | So it is doxxing if the doxxed committed wrongdoings from the
           | perspective of... the doxxer? Ideals, morality, alignment,
           | goals and purpose are and have always been a static constant
           | for all humankind. There is no pineapple pizza, it is a lie,
           | for I don't like it, and therefore nobody else ever did
           | either.
        
             | vpinkeroff wrote:
             | You have understand that we're dealing with Morals(tm), if
             | you're an enemy of the States, anything is on the table.
             | Even some of the things the States is actively calling
             | other countries out for, see Iran for example and how
             | silent the EU, ICC, and NATO is when its "Daddy", as Rutte
             | put it, commits atrocities.
        
             | Barrin92 wrote:
             | doxxing is a term that is commonly reserved for private
             | information that the doxxed individual has an expectation
             | to be treated as such, that is to say, it's not in the
             | public interest.
             | 
             | Someone who breaks the law and is actively searched for
             | obviously has no expectation of privacy, or do you think
             | the people visiting Epstein's island were doxxed?
        
           | pmarreck wrote:
           | So basically it's like Terrorism or Genociding, where if it's
           | against the team you are rooting for, it is that, and if it's
           | not against your in-group it's just War?
           | 
           | I'd rather "doxxing" just mean "de-anonymizing" because
           | that's 1) how I already read it, 2) removes the whole "who is
           | the more moral side in this dispute therefore has the right
           | to make the accusation" problem
        
           | sixothree wrote:
           | It implies to me they _shouldn't_ be releasing his name. In
           | this case it sounds like they very much should be naming him.
        
         | embedding-shape wrote:
         | > Putting someone on a (most) wanted list is "doxing"?
         | 
         | No, if they just put UNKN on the most wanted list, then it
         | wouldn't be doxing. But then they also tie UNKN together with
         | "Daniil Maksimovich Shchukin", and that's the doxxing,
         | regardless or not if it's on a most wanted list.
        
           | KingOfCoders wrote:
           | I think this is not how wanted lists work, here in Germany at
           | least. Do they work this way where you are living? The goal
           | of wanted lists in Germany is to find the person the police
           | is searching for to put them in front of a court if the
           | prosecution can make a case.
           | 
           | Perhaps this goes back to leftist terrorism in Germany in the
           | 1970s, they would not use the code names of terrorists on the
           | wanted lists but their real names to find them, because this
           | is what they wanted - but I don't know.
        
             | embedding-shape wrote:
             | What do you mean "this is not how wanted lists work"? The
             | goal everywhere is to find the people on the wanted list,
             | that's why they're called "wanted" in the first place. Is
             | there something in my comment indicating I don't believe
             | wanted lists are for finding people?
        
               | KingOfCoders wrote:
               | "No, if they just put UNKN on the most wanted list, then
               | it wouldn't be doxing."
               | 
               | I misread that as it either would be the thing to do or
               | an alternative option and you were against putting names
               | on a wanted list.
        
               | embedding-shape wrote:
               | No, I was just trying to clarify that the "doxxing" part
               | is not the "add $name to $list" but "tie $alias to $real-
               | name".
        
               | throwaway7783 wrote:
               | Isn't this just the good old "aka"?
        
               | KingOfCoders wrote:
               | Like in " William H. Bonney aka The Kid"? Doxing in the
               | 19th century by the government it seems.
        
           | stackghost wrote:
           | Back in the day, being doxed meant having your real name,
           | address, phone number, email, etc. posted online for anyone
           | to do what they would.
           | 
           | This seems to be just issuing an arrest warrant.
        
           | alistairSH wrote:
           | Uh, you think they should just put "UNKN" on the wanted list
           | instead of the person they believe is UNKN? That's not very
           | helpful...
        
         | busterarm wrote:
         | also it seems the US had already identified him 3 years prior?
        
         | stuckkeys wrote:
         | I do not understand this logic either. They take GDPR way too
         | serious haha. JK obv.
        
           | sixothree wrote:
           | Wait. Is that what's happening here? Are they expecting the
           | international criminal to be given a right to privacy until
           | he's convicted?
        
       | jojomodding wrote:
       | So apparently some CCC-connected hackers already unmasked one of
       | them years ago (as reported in the update, which could have also
       | just linked to the talk here:
       | https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12134-hirne_hacken_hackback_edit... )
       | 
       | Makes you wonder if the investigators discovered this
       | independently, or decided to maybe ask the hackers already
       | involved in defending against them for help...
        
         | hobofan wrote:
         | I'm not deep into the topic, but AFAIK there generally isn't a
         | warm connection between the CCC and the BND in Germany (in the
         | recent years mostly due to the BNDs involvement ins spying on
         | German citizens, but I think there is also deeper history
         | there). If a hacker collaborates with the BND they do run a
         | risk of many of their peers not wanting to collaborate with
         | them anymore.
        
           | jojomodding wrote:
           | Maybe the special agents watched the talk in their free time
        
           | foepys wrote:
           | It also has something to do with the so called
           | "Hackerparagraph" [1] under which whitehat hacking is
           | basically impossible in Germany. Even writing a program that
           | could potentially be used for hacking is a crime. If you
           | followed the law word for word the authors of e.g. curl could
           | be charged under this law.
           | 
           | 1: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorbereiten_des_Aussp%C3%A4h
           | en... [de]
        
             | PowerElectronix wrote:
             | It'll nevee cease to amaze me how some countries find such
             | creative ways to stifle innovation while they look to be
             | caring about safety or what not.
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _some countries find such creative ways to stifle
               | innovation while they look to be caring about safety or
               | what not_
               | 
               | I'm not sure white-hat hacking is broadly compatible with
               | German culture. Keep in mind that going bankrupt in
               | Germany permanently closes off lots of avenues, from
               | future lending to whether you can be in senior management
               | at a public company.
        
             | groby_b wrote:
             | > If you followed the law word for word the authors of e.g.
             | curl could be charged under this law.
             | 
             | They really couldn't. BVerfG (Germany's constitutional
             | court) has clearly said that dual use tools have a
             | presumption of _not_ being tools to break the law. It 's
             | been very clear that _mens rea_ matters. And that a narrow
             | reading of the law is the only constitutional reading.
             | 
             | The problem here is taking "word for word" as "by
             | dictionary meaning", which is never how laws are read.
             | 
             | It's still a problematic law (together with SS202a/b)
             | because it doesn't clearly carve out space for grey-hat
             | activities (white-hat attacks with authorization really
             | don't fall under it even with creative reading).
             | 
             | On the upside, Germany is considering fixing that. On the
             | downside, it moves with the speed of classic German
             | bureaucracy and is being "discussed" since 2024.
        
             | wil421 wrote:
             | Isn't that by design so governments can prosecute citizens
             | they don't like? For example, curl is probably ok but that
             | one annoying Kim Dotcom guy is probably going to catch a
             | case under some dubious law.
        
           | cineticdaffodil wrote:
           | Well at least the german state can collaborate with russian
           | agents in projects like wirecard and not violate any laws
           | when threatening journalists reporting on its collaborations.
        
           | edm0nd wrote:
           | >but AFAIK there generally isn't a warm connection between
           | the CCC and the BND
           | 
           | nor should there be.
           | 
           | Similar to how us American hackers have a huge dislike and
           | distrust of the FBI.
           | 
           | Your own law enforcement agency will lie to you, manipulate
           | you, raid you, extort you, and imprison you over bullshit.
        
       | alistairSH wrote:
       | How is "this is the name of the formerly anonymous extortionist"
       | doxxing?
       | 
       | Unless there's something not covered in the article, his current
       | address, family members, phone, etc were not listed. That's not
       | doxxing; that's "here's a guy were want to arrest."
        
         | randomNumber7 wrote:
         | That wouldn't sound cool. Especially as noone actually gives a
         | fuck about what germany wants.
        
         | perlgeek wrote:
         | It seems to me that the meaning of the word "doxxing" has
         | slowly drifted to mean "revealing information about somebody
         | without their consent", be it by state actor, a company or an
         | individual.
         | 
         | BTW, what do you think will happen when people find out that
         | their neighbor is secretly a pretty wealthy criminal? Attempts
         | of theft, robbery and extortion have happened in the wake of
         | such announcements.
         | 
         | There was even a case where somebody attempted to impersonate
         | an intelligence officer and try to force a recently doxxed
         | cyber criminal to bribe them.
        
           | alistairSH wrote:
           | _what do you think will happen when people find out that
           | their neighbor is secretly a pretty wealthy criminal?_
           | 
           | Who knows, but I'm also not sure how you avoid that
           | situation. Presumably, to be "doxxed" like this, there's
           | substantive evidence he is actually the criminal. Strikes me
           | as just one more downside of being a successful (but now
           | identified) extortionist.
        
       | crest wrote:
       | Since when does putting criminals on official wanted lists count
       | as doxxing?!? If they want their information taken down they just
       | have to show up in court.
        
       | ddtaylor wrote:
       | I think people are getting stuck on the concept of the word
       | doxing here. In anonymous online hacking circles, the idea that
       | you're exposing anyone's OPSEC at all is considered basically
       | doxing. People do it regularly, but it's seen as a clear
       | indication of being an enemy.
       | 
       | Some take a "full disclosure" style and expose all OPSEC failures
       | instantly and transparently, because otherwise people seem to
       | collect OPSEC failures and make it seem to be extortion itself,
       | like saying "hey remember that time you signed off with your real
       | name?" or "I know your clearnet address"
        
       | twodave wrote:
       | Some of the comments here (and lately on HN in general) are very
       | concerning to me. Are we really going to pretend that people
       | accused of real crimes shouldn't be arrested, charged and, if
       | found guilty, have an appropriate sentence? It doesn't take many
       | more than 2 brain cells rubbing together to see that that won't
       | end well. Whataboutism, political differences, and even real
       | injustices in my opinion do not make this a reasonable position.
        
         | randomNumber7 wrote:
         | It probably depends on what people think about the laws that
         | define what a "real crime" is.
         | 
         | E.g. in germany it was a real crime to grow some weed. Now it's
         | legal, but even before a lot of reasonable people didn't want
         | someone go to jail over weed.
        
           | signatoremo wrote:
           | Sure, but do you consider this specific case a real crime?
        
             | Computer0 wrote:
             | > largely going after >organizations with more than >$100
             | million in annual revenues >and fat new cyber insurance
             | >policies that were known to >payout
             | 
             | No people were harmed so I am leaning towards no crime
             | committed.
        
               | twodave wrote:
               | Wrong. "No people I agree with were harmed," perhaps.
               | This is no different than cronyism.
        
               | Computer0 wrote:
               | businesses are not people
        
               | DFHippie wrote:
               | If a business is destroyed by ransomware, all its
               | employees lose their jobs. The business's customers lose
               | the services the business was providing. The families
               | supported by these jobs are now all at risk.
               | 
               | All that money goes somewhere. Much of it goes towards
               | clothing, feeding, and housing people. Also, in most
               | places it's a crime to rob anyone, even selfish assholes.
        
               | wstrange wrote:
               | Insurance money doesn't grow on trees. The economy is
               | highly connected, so increased costs impact most
               | consumers.
               | 
               | Ransomware is a scourge enabled by crypto. We should do
               | whatever we can to eliminate it.
        
           | twodave wrote:
           | No, it doesn't, at least not to me. I can disagree with a law
           | while also agreeing to obey it and that those who break it
           | should have consequences. I can hold these two opposing ideas
           | because that is the basis by which governments function. If
           | everybody gets to decide for themselves what should be/not be
           | a crime, then we don't have a society. Society is about
           | compromise. What I'm seeing is not compromise. What I'm
           | seeing is people dismissing the whole of law because there's
           | one they don't agree with, or an application or even abuse of
           | the law that offends them. It's an abandonment of balance and
           | a dismissing of rational conversation.
        
           | Fnoord wrote:
           | If we'd follow your line of thinking prosecution of those
           | responsible for MH17 were also to remain anonymous. Which is
           | obviously ridiculous.
           | 
           |  _If_ growing weed is illegal in Germany, and someone unknown
           | grew a lot of weed in Germany, they end up being sought, and
           | (eventually) their name and other details could end up in a
           | police warrant.
           | 
           | The comparison is moot though since growing weed in Germany
           | requires physical presence in Germany. The alleged
           | cybercrimes could've originated from anywhere in the world
           | due to the nature of the internet.
           | 
           | It just isn't doxing unless you don't see legal merit in the
           | German police and German authorities. Which is obviously
           | rhetoric the Russians want others to follow.
        
       | mmanfrin wrote:
       | I feel accepted spelling of the word is 'doxxes'; doxes in my
       | head reads as 'dokeses'.
       | 
       | Also talk about a headline that would mean absolute gibberish
       | just a couple decades ago.
        
       | preetigagarwal wrote:
       | These groups typically exploit unpatched vulnerabilities and
       | exposed credentials. Most companies don't discover they're
       | vulnerable until after a breach. Regular security audits are the
       | only real defense.
        
         | nikcub wrote:
         | ugh, strong ai slop vibes with comments like this
        
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