[HN Gopher] Some uncomfortable truths about AI coding agents
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Some uncomfortable truths about AI coding agents
        
       Author : borealis-dev
       Score  : 64 points
       Date   : 2026-03-27 17:32 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (standupforme.app)
 (TXT) w3m dump (standupforme.app)
        
       | palmotea wrote:
       | > The role change has been described by some as becoming a sort
       | of software engineering manager, where one writes little or no
       | code oneself but instead supervises a team of AI coding agents as
       | if they are a team of human junior software engineers....
       | 
       | > In reality, though, the code review load for software engineers
       | will gradually increase as fewer and fewer of them are expected
       | to supervise an ever-growing number of coding agents, and they
       | will inevitably learn to become complacent over time, out of pure
       | necessity for their sanity. I'm a proponent of code review...but
       | even I often consider it a slog to do my due diligence for a
       | large code review (just because I think it's important doesn't
       | mean I think it's fun). If it's your full-time job to review a
       | swarm of agents' work, and experience tells you they are good
       | enough 95%+ of the time, you're not going to pay as much
       | attention as you should and bad changes will get through.
       | 
       | Another way to look at this is that AI coding agents take the fun
       | out of a software engineer's job. The machine takes many of the
       | fun parts and leaves the human with more of the unenjoyable
       | parts.
       | 
       | Under our new ways of working, you are required to be excited an
       | curious about this evolution three times per day.
        
         | jonah wrote:
         | Sounds a lot like "self-driving" cars - "they are good enough
         | 95%+ of the time, you're not going to pay as much attention as
         | you should".
         | 
         | Same thing happens here, you get complacent and miss critical
         | failures or problems.
         | 
         | It's also similar in that it "take[s away] many of the fun
         | parts". When I can focus on simply driving it can be engaging
         | and enjoyable - no matter the road or traffic or whatever.
        
           | gruez wrote:
           | >Sounds a lot like "self-driving" cars - "they are good
           | enough 95%+ of the time, you're not going to pay as much
           | attention as you should".
           | 
           | That might be an issue for supervised "self-driving" cars
           | (eg. tesla FSD), but not really applicable to self driving
           | cars as a whole. Waymo seems to be doing just fine for
           | instance.
        
             | jonah wrote:
             | Exactly why I put "self-driving" in quotes. Right now AI
             | assisted coding might generally be at the equivalent of
             | Level-2 or -3 self-driving. Getting to autonomous coding
             | agents will be like the step change that is Level-4 or -5
             | driving.
        
         | mark242 wrote:
         | > Another way to look at this is that AI coding agents take the
         | fun out of a software engineer's job.
         | 
         | Completely backwards - the fun in the job should be to solve
         | problems and come up with solutions. The fun in the job is not
         | knowing where to place a semicolon.
        
           | bluefirebrand wrote:
           | > the fun in the job should be to solve problems and come up
           | with solutions
           | 
           | Who are you to tell anyone what the fun "should" be?
           | 
           | Personally, I find writing code very fun, because _building_
           | the solution is also very gratifying.
           | 
           | Besides which, in my experience until you actually write the
           | code you haven't proven that you solved anything. It's so
           | easy to think you have solved a problem when you haven't, but
           | you won't figure that out until you actually try to apply
           | your solution
           | 
           | > The fun in the job is not knowing where to place a
           | semicolon.
           | 
           | This can be solved with simple linters, no need for LLMs
        
           | chris_money202 wrote:
           | Exactly, the fun part is when the code works and does what
           | you wanted it to do. Writing code itself is not fun. People
           | forget this because they get small wins / dopamine hits along
           | the way, a clever function, an elegant few lines of code, a
           | bug fix, but the majority of that time coding is just a grind
           | until the end where you get the big dopamine hit.
        
             | HendrikHensen wrote:
             | Fun is not measured objectively. Different people find
             | different things fun. I enjoy writing code very much (in
             | addition to solving big problems; one can enjoy both).
        
           | palmotea wrote:
           | >> Another way to look at this is that AI coding agents take
           | the fun out of a software engineer's job.
           | 
           | > Completely backwards - the fun in the job should be to
           | solve problems and come up with solutions.
           | 
           | Aren't the coding agents supposed to be doing that too? You
           | give them the problem, they code up a solution, then the
           | engineer is left with the review it to see if it's good
           | enough.
           | 
           | > The fun in the job is not knowing where to place a
           | semicolon.
           | 
           | That's like such a minor and easy-to-do thing that I'm
           | surprised you're even bringing it up.
        
             | JohnMakin wrote:
             | Eh, that's not at all how I do it. I like to design the
             | architecture and spec and let them implement the code. That
             | is a fun skill to exercise. Sometimes I give a little more
             | leeway in letting them decide how to implement, but that
             | can go off the rails.
             | 
             | imho "tell them what you want and let them come up with a
             | solution" is a really naive way to use these tools nearly
             | guaranteed to end up with slopware.
             | 
             | the more up front design I've given thought to, they are
             | usually very accurate in delivering to the point I dont
             | need to spend very much time reviewing at all. and, this is
             | a step I would have had to do anyway if doing it by hand,
             | so it feels natural, and results in far more correct code
             | more often than I could have on my own, and allows
             | multitasking several projects at once, which would have
             | been impossible before.
        
           | autoexec wrote:
           | Companies aren't investing in AI because they want to solve
           | the problem of semicolon placement. They want AI to solve
           | problems and come up with solutions. Then they want to fire
           | most of their programmers and force the rest to do nothing
           | but check over and fix the slop their marketing departments
           | are churning out.
        
             | plagiarist wrote:
             | I don't know why they'd stop at most programmers instead of
             | all programmers. And the marketing department will also be
             | AI. Companies want AI to remove the need for any labor so
             | they can more directly gain money based on already having
             | money.
        
               | Avicebron wrote:
               | > directly gain money based on already having money.
               | 
               | I'm stealing this.
        
               | autoexec wrote:
               | They'll need at least a few programmers because AI
               | doesn't actually work very well and fixes will be
               | required. The marketing department may end up replaced by
               | AI but so far marketers have convinced companies that
               | they're so essential that even the most popular and well
               | known brands in the world feel the need to spend billions
               | on more and more marketing. If anyone can talk their way
               | into staying employed it'll be marketers.
        
           | lelanthran wrote:
           | > Completely backwards - the fun in the job should be to
           | solve problems and come up with solutions.
           | 
           | You don't need to be a software engineer to do that.
        
             | mark242 wrote:
             | Except you kind of do -- understanding data structures,
             | understanding software engineering concepts, all of the
             | things that you learn as a good engineer, those are ways
             | that you help guide the LLM in its work.
        
               | lelanthran wrote:
               | > Except you kind of do -- understanding data structures,
               | understanding software engineering concepts, all of the
               | things that you learn as a good engineer,
               | 
               | How do you learn that without programming?
        
               | irishcoffee wrote:
               | I don't think kids are learning those things in 2026,
               | they just ask an LLM.
               | 
               | Someone posted on here the other day about how they were
               | taking a non-credit writing class in college so as to
               | improve their writing, that was the reason the course
               | existed. 90% of the class was kicked out because they
               | were using LLMs to write for them, when the entire
               | purpose of the class was to improve ones own writing.
               | 
               | Why do you think it will be any different with
               | programming?
        
           | dijksterhuis wrote:
           | > the fun in the job should be to
           | 
           | man... can we not just accept that individuals have their own
           | motivations and maybe my reasons for wanting to do the job
           | aren't the same as yours?
        
           | oidar wrote:
           | > The fun in the job is not knowing where to place a
           | semicolon.
           | 
           | If a person needs an LLM to figure where an semicolon goes, a
           | LLM is not going to help them code.
        
             | kevinob11 wrote:
             | I don't need one to know where it goes, but it certainly is
             | better than I am at never missing one.
        
           | theshackleford wrote:
           | > the fun in the job should be
           | 
           | I think i'm going to let people decide for themselves what
           | they enjoy in their job rather than pretending I know better
           | than they do what they should and should not enjoy.
        
           | gonzalohm wrote:
           | The fun of the job is building a piece of software that's
           | beautifully written. It's a way of expressing yourself
        
         | dybber wrote:
         | I think it depends on what you find enjoyable. I think people
         | who like the tinkering and the actual act of coding, debugging,
         | etc. will find it less and less fun to be in this area, but
         | people who like to look at the big picture, and solve problems,
         | will see that they will now be better at both getting overview
         | of larger and larger codebases and that technical debt that was
         | never attainable to solve before can now be "outsourced" to
         | LLM's.
         | 
         | I find that fun. I work in a 50 year old IT company, with lots
         | of legacy code and technical debt which we have never been able
         | to address - suddenly it's within reach to really get us to a
         | better place.
        
           | maplethorpe wrote:
           | The best way to have a big picture view of a project is to
           | build a mental model of that project in your head. Coding
           | with LLMs removes that ability, and replaces it with an
           | illusion.
        
         | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
         | The "fun" for me has never been "coding" and on the enterprise
         | dev side that has been a commodity for a decade.
         | 
         | If you look at the leveling guidelines for any tech company
         | "codez real gud" will only get you to a mid level ticket taker.
        
           | catgary wrote:
           | And even then - I still read the code it generates, and if I
           | see a better way of doing something I just step in, write a
           | partial solution, and then sketch out how the complete
           | solution should work.
        
             | raw_anon_1111 wrote:
             | Unless the solution is going to be more secure, faster,
             | more stable etc, why does it matter?
             | 
             | Will the end user care? "Does it make the beer taste
             | better"?
        
         | hax0ron3 wrote:
         | I like programming for fun, but professional software
         | engineering has never been more than very occasionally fun to
         | me. I do it because it pays well.
         | 
         | Most companies use some variant of the sprint/"agile"
         | methodology, which means that you as the programmer are similar
         | to an assembly line worker. You don't control the pace, you
         | rarely get the chance to actually finish anything as much as
         | you would like to so you don't get the satisfaction of a
         | finished product, you get little downtime in between tickets or
         | projects to feel a sense of satisfaction at what you have done
         | before you move on to something else.
         | 
         | I totally understand why businesses operate this way. It's
         | simple: if you try not to operate this way, you increase the
         | likelihood that your competitors will release more rapidly and
         | take all your market share. It's the basic evolutionary logic.
         | If you can release a decent but buggy product six months faster
         | than the competitor can release a better and less buggy
         | product, there is a good chance that you will drive them out of
         | business. It all makes sense, but it doesn't result in a
         | pleasant experience for me as a programmer.
         | 
         | The job is also very sedentary and it puts stress on your eyes
         | and your hands. Of course I'm not going to compare myself to a
         | coal miner, but the fact remains that in its own ways the job
         | is more rough on the body than some people might expect.
         | Meanwhile the intellectual and constantly changing nature of
         | the field means that you can never rest on your laurels - the
         | job requires constant mental engagement. It's hard to do it
         | well while multitasking and thinking about other interesting
         | things at the same time.
         | 
         | If jobs in this field did not pay so well, I don't think I'd
         | ever even consider doing this as a career. It just doesn't have
         | nearly enough upsides for me. The only upside I can think of
         | besides the money is that you get to spend time interacting
         | with intelligent people. But one can get that in other places.
         | 
         | Coding with the help of AI is a big improvement for me because
         | just automating away the boilerplate and greatly reducing the
         | time that needs to be spent in doing reading, research and
         | experimentation already takes away some of the main time-sinks
         | of the job. And while I appreciate code's deterministic and
         | logical elegance, I've written more than enough code in my life
         | to not miss writing it directly. I also enjoy writing English,
         | after all. It's refreshing for me to spend my time composing
         | precise English instructions for the AI instead of writing in a
         | programming language. My English skills are above average, so
         | this also helps me to leverage one of my talents that had
         | previously been underutilized. Well, my English skills always
         | came in handy when I needed to talk to coworkers or managers,
         | but I meant that they had been underutilized in the act of
         | actually creating software.
        
       | abletonlive wrote:
       | These opinions about what is going on w/ LLM development always
       | stop short at first order effects and fail to account for
       | second/third order effects.
       | 
       | > Skill atrophy
       | 
       | If LLMs are so good that you no longer have use for the skill,
       | why do we care about skill atrophy? That skill isn't that useful
       | to most people. There are so many examples of this in human
       | history where it was completely fine and we went on to do higher
       | order things that were more useful.
       | 
       | > Even if they set out fully intending to provide the highest
       | level of scrutiny to all generated code, they will gradually lose
       | the ability to tell a good change from a bad one
       | 
       | If this (first order effect) is actually a problem then it
       | follows that we will naturally exercise our skill of detecting
       | good change from bad ones (second order effect) and the skill
       | will not atrophy? (third order effect). Seems like your "problem"
       | is self correcting?
       | 
       | > At its core, the only defense I've got for that response is...
       | this time feels different? Not a particularly rigorous defense, I
       | admit, but I did warn you that this was the squishiest of the
       | issues at hand.
       | 
       | Well, if you knew this perhaps it was better just not to lead
       | with it and spend so many paragraphs on it.
       | 
       | > Some might argue that, even if that time comes eventually,
       | that's no reason not to make use of the tools that are available
       | right now. But it should come as no surprise that I disagree.
       | Better not to become overly dependent on AI coding agents in the
       | first place so you'll be better situated to weather the storm
       | (and maybe even thrive) when it comes.
       | 
       | Well this argument didn't turn out to be any less squishy than
       | the first one. It's a self correcting "problem" but you disagree
       | and we should do X because you said so. What was the point of all
       | of this then?
       | 
       | > Prompt Injection
       | 
       | I also think this will likely always be a problem but you can
       | pretty much point at ANY tool we use in software development.
       | Your viewpoint would be similar to saying we should stop using
       | libraries because there's always going to be a vulnerability when
       | you distribute code that somewhere in the chain a bad actor can
       | inject malicious code even if the library was created by a
       | trusted source in the industry. We have plenty of examples of
       | this happening in real life. So far, still squishy.
       | 
       | > Copyright/licensing > I'm not a lawyer! I'm a legal layperson
       | offering my unqualified assessment of some tricky legal
       | questions. Let's get to it.
       | 
       | Sigh, this entire post is slop isn't it? Bad look for whatever
       | "standup for me is".
       | 
       | edit: Standup for me is something that is made entirely
       | irrelevant by agentic LLMs, no surprise. The irony is rich.
       | 
       | The author wants to be the gatekeeper of skill, quality, and how
       | we develop while they hand feed us slop in the form of their blog
       | posts.
        
         | palmotea wrote:
         | > If LLMs are so good that you no longer have use for the
         | skill, why do we care about skill atrophy? That skill isn't
         | that useful to most people. There are so many examples of this
         | in human history where it was completely fine and we went on to
         | do higher order things that were more useful.
         | 
         | Because the LLMs actually aren't that good, so humans are
         | expected to monitor them using the skills they no longer have
         | the opportunity to develop and maintain.
         | 
         | The OP talked about that. Did you miss it?
         | 
         | > If this (first order effect) is actually a problem then it
         | follows that we will naturally exercise our skill of detecting
         | good change (second order effect) from bad ones and the skill
         | will not atrophy? (third order effect).
         | 
         | You're ignoring the anti-human psychological factors: humans
         | are bad at continuously monitoring for occasional errors. The
         | tendency will be to adopt a complacent attitude, default allow.
         | It's not a good environment for developing a skill, compared to
         | actually actively using it.
        
           | abletonlive wrote:
           | > Because the LLMs actually aren't that good, so humans are
           | expected to monitor them using the skills they no longer have
           | the opportunity to develop and maintain
           | 
           | If humans are expected to monitor them using the skill then
           | obviously they are still practicing the skill and the skill
           | is developed and maintained. Help me understand why it is so
           | difficult for everybody with this opinion to take a another
           | step into their premise?
           | 
           | > humans are bad at continuously monitoring for occasional
           | errors
           | 
           | Let's assume this is true for sake of discussion: That's the
           | job, pre-llm or not. Air traffic control? occasional errors.
           | Software bugs? occasional errors. Department of homeland
           | security? occasional threats
           | 
           | If it's hard and required that we handle the issue, then it's
           | a skill that people will naturally exercise and the skill
           | therefore won't atrophy.
           | 
           | If your argument was true we'd have swarms of people doing
           | accounting by hand instead of using accounting tools because
           | you're worried that the accountants will atrophy their
           | ability to audit the output of the tools.
           | 
           | That's not how it works in the real world and we have plenty
           | of examples of it...
           | 
           | But sure, if your argument simply boils down to "this
           | time...it's different" like the author is arguing, then let's
           | leave it at that. There's no value in discussing it further
           | just like there was no value in the original post. It was
           | just mindless slop to promote "standup for me" which is also
           | something that falls under the category of: "things that are
           | no longer relevant because of llms"
        
       | polotics wrote:
       | i was kinda hoping for TFA to finally produce some research
       | outputs or even statistics, but sadly the `uncomfortable truths`
       | are your usual vague talking points.
        
         | borealis-dev wrote:
         | Sorry, I realize the headline perhaps implies something with
         | more rigour than it actually delivers. I'm pretty new to
         | writing blog posts! But if you want some actual factual data,
         | you seriously should read Ed Zitron's blog:
         | https://www.wheresyoured.at/
        
       | dijksterhuis wrote:
       | As someone who worked on "prompt injection" before it was called
       | "prompt injection" for an (unfinished) phd...
       | 
       | yeah there is only one surefire 100% fix for "prompt injection":
       | use deterministic solutions ie not machine learning.
       | 
       | ----
       | 
       | addendum in case someone tries to make this commonly made point
       | -- i don't use deterministic here to mean "i've pinned the ML
       | model weights after training". i use it in reference to the
       | probability theory stuff of training/models (the boring and
       | complicated maths stuff).
        
       | ineedasername wrote:
       | There were no uncomfortable truths there about code agents, save
       | one of the 4 points which was that maybe they sometimes get
       | prompt injected if you let them search for things online and
       | don't pay attention to where they search and the code they write.
       | That's not an uncomfortable truth in the normal sense of "I know
       | you don't want to admit this but..." and more just the thing
       | that, if you didn't know it already 8 months ago, you certainly
       | should by now.
       | 
       | The other truths that were not about coding agents:
       | 
       | --Skill Atrophy. (Use it or lose it-- another thing we already
       | know)
       | 
       | --The economics of serving code agents at scale (Ungrounded in
       | actual numbers, only OpenAI's miscellaneous statements and
       | annecdotes. Actual cost of running code agents: last gen's mid-
       | tier gaming gpu's will get you reasonably close to Claude Sonnet
       | if you put just a little time in to an agent harness, and its
       | getting cheaper and cheaper for better and better. So, at scale,
       | with real sysadmins doing the hard engineering to eek out every
       | last bit of performance-- well, infra needed for serving these
       | isn't the cost center)
       | 
       | --Copyright. (This passed on the same bad read of a court ruling
       | half the press has been doing for a few years now. TLDR: The
       | Thaler vs. Perlmutter case, which said nothing about output not
       | being protected by copyright. It denied Thaler's attempt to
       | register *the AI* as the owner of the copyright)
        
       | freetime2 wrote:
       | The more immediate uncomfortable truth for me is that my company
       | is requiring all developers to use LLMs, and laying off
       | developers who won't make the switch. I'm not sure that "LLM-
       | based AI coding agents have no place now, or ever, in generating
       | production code for any software I build professionally" is a
       | decision that most of us will have a choice in.
        
         | borealis-dev wrote:
         | You're right about that. It's something I should have addressed
         | in the original article, but I don't really have a solution for
         | those who aren't self-employed. Maybe just use up a bunch of
         | tokens on junk tasks while continuing to secretly write the
         | code yourself? It's super wasteful, but do what you have to do
         | to survive until the bubble pops.
        
       | johnfn wrote:
       | The section on "artificially low costs" does not make a lot of
       | sense to me. If anything I feel like the costs are inflated for
       | the frontier models, not "artificially low". Easy proof: GLM-5
       | costs about 1/10 as much as Opus. I'm not going to tell you it's
       | as good as Opus 4.6 -- it's not -- but it performs comparably to
       | where frontier models were 6 months ago. (It's on par with Sonnet
       | 4.5 on leaderboards, though in practice it's probably closer to
       | Sonnet 4.0.)
       | 
       | If I can switch to an open source model today, run it myself, and
       | spend 1/10 as much as Opus, and get to about where frontier
       | models were 6 months ago, fear-mongering about how we'll have to
       | weather "orders-of-magnitude price hikes" and arguing that that
       | one shouldn't even bother to learn how to use AI at all seems
       | disconnected from reality. Who cares about the "shady accounting"
       | OpenAI is doing, or that AI labs are "wildly unprofitable"? I can
       | run GLM 5 right now, forever, for cheap.
        
         | piker wrote:
         | The post is factoring in training costs, not just inference.
        
           | johnfn wrote:
           | But I don't need to pay training costs to use GLM-5?
        
             | piker wrote:
             | Sure, but somebody needs to pay for GLM-6 unless you're
             | happy to stop here.
        
               | InsideOutSanta wrote:
               | If everybody stopped training models today and Anthropic
               | and OpenAI were deleted from the universe, I'd be happy
               | to just keep using GLM-5 at its current inference cost.
               | The article's author assumes that there will be a point
               | where we will no longer have access to good models at
               | reasonable cost because current models are subsidized,
               | but GLM-5 disproves that.
        
       | fredolivier0 wrote:
       | i just read this before - why is it 3hrs ago?
        
       | instig007 wrote:
       | I find the other article that the author refers to in his text,
       | to be more thorough and revealing:
       | https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-ai-industry-is-lying-to-you/
        
       | rbalicki wrote:
       | The skill atrophy point strikes me as tenuous at best. Obviously,
       | the plural of anecdote is not data, but I find myself able to
       | work on projects of greater complexity than I would have been
       | able to otherwise. 90% of my time is spent going back and forth
       | on Markdown files, discussing the architecture, trade-offs, etc.
       | I don't think it's necessarily impossible to use all this
       | newfound power to ship more sloppier code. It's clearly possible
       | to use all this newfound power to ship better code too.
        
         | piker wrote:
         | > I find myself able to work on projects of greater complexity
         | than I would have been able to otherwise
         | 
         | Yes. Now turn off the LLM and make an improvement to that code.
        
           | adamors wrote:
           | Exactly, this is like watching youtubers code, ie backseat
           | coding. It's easy to follow along but taking control midway
           | is anything but, especially in a codebase that has been
           | written by an agent and you don't have any muscle-memory in.
        
         | james-clef wrote:
         | Totally agree with this taking on projects of greater
         | complexity. I honestly feel the sloppier code thing is going to
         | die soon. People make mistakes too. Always see people holding
         | the machine to like this totally different standard.
        
       | tao_oat wrote:
       | I didn't find this very convincing. Especially the argument
       | around artificially low cost -- we know that training the next
       | model is the biggest cost for these companies, and we've already
       | seen inference costs fall drastically (https://epoch.ai/data-
       | insights/llm-inference-price-trends).
        
         | bigyikes wrote:
         | Yes, Dario has publicly stated that models are already
         | profitable if you exclude R&D for the next model.
         | 
         | Even if that's not true, given that hardware and software
         | efficiency gains can be expected to continue it's likely that
         | this is the most expensive the current level of intelligence
         | will ever be.
         | 
         | The frontier models may increase in price, but only because
         | they're also more capable. If you hold intelligence constant,
         | price should fall over time.
        
       | skybrian wrote:
       | These "truths" are more like concerns.
       | 
       | Skills do atrophy if you don't practice them, but also,
       | refreshing your memory about some technology you haven't used in
       | a while, or even learning something new, is easier than ever. You
       | can ask the AI questions and try things out yourself very easily.
       | Maybe "just in time" learning isn't good enough, but that's more
       | of a concern based on speculation than a truth.
       | 
       | AI is being subsidized, but also, inference costs are dropping
       | due to algorithmic improvements. For example, TurboQuant [1]
       | looks pretty promising and even if it doesn't pan out, there are
       | plenty of other potential advances like that. Competition might
       | result in AI inference being available at good prices even
       | without subsidies. So, again, more of a concern than a "truth."
       | 
       | Prompt injection: an unsolved mess, but perhaps curated, trusted
       | datasets will be good enough for many projects, so you don't have
       | to expose your agent to the open Internet? It's a similar problem
       | to the supply-chain vulnerabilities that downloadable open source
       | libraries have. A valid concern, but it seems like we'll improve
       | security and muddle through?
       | 
       | Copyright: also an unsolved mess, but kind of similar. Search
       | engines copy the web as part of how they work, but that didn't
       | stop Google from becoming big tech. And sure, Napster was built
       | on copying music and was shut down, but YouTube was also built on
       | widespread copyright violation and it muddled through. It's
       | unclear whether copyright law is load-bearing infrastructure for
       | the software industry or for open source software.
       | 
       | [1] https://github.com/tonbistudio/turboquant-pytorch
        
       | jjcm wrote:
       | I disagree with the author's interpretation of many of their
       | points.
       | 
       | > Skill Atrophy
       | 
       | Very true, but in the same way moving from assembly -> scripting
       | languages degraded the skill of programmers to manage memory. AI
       | is another tool (albeit one that's on a different level than any
       | other transformation we've had); what matters is whether the
       | programmer understands the intent of the code, not the 0's and
       | 1's that it turns into. That intent is still there, we're just
       | writing it at a much higher level than before.
       | 
       | > Artificially low cost
       | 
       | This heavily depends model to model. IMO OpenAI/Anthropic are
       | likely the outliers here, and I do agree that it's unlikely
       | they'll recoup the training costs for their specific models, but
       | they also legitimized an industry - something that's hard to
       | tangibly price. Many of the models out of China however will
       | almost certainly recoup cost. Qwen 3 had a training price of
       | around $1.6m USD. In the first quarter of this year OpenRouter
       | processed around 5 trillion tokens from it, landing at around
       | 2.5m in revenue (very rough numbers). Assuming a 30% margin,
       | that's already 40% of their training cost in revenue for a
       | quarter from a single platform - their usage in china is almost
       | certainly higher.
       | 
       | The reality is training costs are getting cheaper. I agree that
       | currently the top providers are heavily subsidizing costs, but
       | that doesn't mean you can't drive revenue, they just choose not
       | to as having the "best" model right now gives them clout.
        
         | InsideOutSanta wrote:
         | Yeah, I agree. The first point depends on the second: skill
         | atrophy is only an issue if you expect that coding LLMs will
         | essentially disappear or become much more expensive. But they
         | won't. There are companies offering GLM-5 at a profit, and it's
         | affordable, and a great model.
         | 
         | The third point is moot if you run agents in a container and
         | review their code, which you can and should do.
         | 
         | The fourth point is real, but the chance of it actually ending
         | up harming people who use LLMs to write code is IMO remote.
        
       | jopsen wrote:
       | Lots of claims on cost, very little data.
        
       | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
       | > There are four main issues contributing to the blanket ban on
       | AI coding agents in my professional work: skill atrophy,
       | artificially low cost, prompt injections and copyright/licensing.
       | 
       | - Skill atrophy is not a realistic concern. Every single
       | technological advancement in human history _should have_
       | atrophied the skills of people working in those fields, to some
       | kind of detriment. Yet that hasn 't happened (in any way any of
       | us would notice). You can still find people skilled in everything
       | that is still produced, and everything still gets produced. If
       | nobody's made it in 100 years and only 1 old man still knows how
       | to make it by hand, sure, that knowledge will die. That isn't
       | true of things still actively produced with advanced technology,
       | like agriculture, textiles, metalworking, woodworking, printing,
       | art, music. If this was a serious concern, we would have freaked
       | out more that COBOL programmers were becoming rare to find to
       | support IRS/bank systems, well before AI existed. AI is not the
       | problem, and rejecting it isn't the solution.
       | 
       | If you're concerned _your_ skills will deteriorate, that 's not
       | something to fear. You can always get better at it again _if you
       | need to_. Your brain isn 't falling out of your head.
       | 
       | - The artificially low cost is not something to worry about. We
       | have already invested so many dollars into LLMs that we could
       | ride the current SOTA models for decades and still get way more
       | value out of it than the money we burned to get here. The only
       | reason trillions are getting spent now is insane business people
       | are being insane. _You_ don 't have to spend trillions. There are
       | several very small teams of AI labs who produce very good open
       | weight models with tiny budgets. You can make much more money
       | using even local AI than from not using it. The economics are
       | there. Do the math: cost of an AI dev team for 1 year, cost of 1
       | cluster of GPUs to train on, is an order of magnitude less than
       | some companies pay for their advertising budget.
       | 
       | There absolutely is an AI bubble, and when it pops, so will the
       | US economy (causing a world recession, since the Saudis are also
       | tied up in AI investment), but we will all keep using AI
       | regardless. It just won't be Anthropic or OpenAI we're using. The
       | AI world is already way bigger than that.
       | 
       | - Prompt injections are just one security concern, but they are
       | solveable. The trick is to not use LLMs for _everything_ , like
       | most people are today. You don't allow the control plane to be
       | AI-dictated. You segregate tainted data. You practice defense-in-
       | depth. You lean on deterministic, versioned software more than
       | prompts. With these and more practices, you can do a lot of
       | valuable work safely, even with tainted data.
       | 
       | - I think copyright is dead. Unless there's a global rejection of
       | AI in general (which I don't think will happen), the world will
       | adapt to this new order, where everything is a mix of everything,
       | and nobody really owns anything, IP wise. There is just no way to
       | reject the immense value of AI trained on the world's content.
       | The world will simply change its laws and conventions to fit
       | around AI.
        
       | doug_durham wrote:
       | The copyright example is naive at best. Any AI work that has been
       | meaningfully modified by a human can be copyrighted. So if LLM
       | generated code is used a the starting point and it is then
       | modified in the testing and review phases you are good. Code that
       | has not been touched by humans is very rare.
        
         | dijksterhuis wrote:
         | > Code that has not been touched by humans is very rare.
         | 
         | i mean... it's not the most common, but it's certainly not
         | super rare.
         | 
         | https://hn.algolia.com/?q=i+vibecoded
         | 
         | 508 results, yes not all of the hits are actual vibe-coded
         | projects. but then this is just the people who are willing to
         | admit it freely as well. so.
        
       | norir wrote:
       | > I recognize that it is reminiscent of a few decades ago when
       | old timers complained about the proliferation of high level
       | programming languages and insisted they would lead to a
       | generation of programmers lacking a proper understanding of how
       | the system behaves beneath all that syntactic sugar and automatic
       | garbage collection. They won't have the foundational skills
       | necessary to design and build quality software. And, for the most
       | part, they turned out to be wrong.
       | 
       | What if the old timers were actually right? I tend to think they
       | were.
        
       | jp57 wrote:
       | Honest question: Is inference actually being sold at a loss? I.e.
       | does inference itself cost more to run than we're being charged,
       | or are the companies operating at a loss because they're spending
       | more on training than the margins they get from inference?
        
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