[HN Gopher] The Legibility of Serif and Sans Serif Typefaces (2022)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Legibility of Serif and Sans Serif Typefaces (2022)
        
       Author : the-mitr
       Score  : 70 points
       Date   : 2026-03-23 17:56 UTC (4 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (library.oapen.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (library.oapen.org)
        
       | treetalker wrote:
       | To sum up almost 160 pages:
       | 
       | > [T]he overwhelming thrust of the available evidence is that
       | there is no difference in the legibility of serif typefaces and
       | sans serif typefaces either when reading from paper or when
       | reading from screens. Typographers and software designers should
       | feel able to make full use of both serif typefaces and sans serif
       | typefaces, even if legibility is a key criterion in their choice.
        
         | aetherspawn wrote:
         | Thank you, as much as a 160 page book about fonts is probably
         | thrilling, I probably won't get around to it for a while so was
         | going to ask for the tl;dr
        
           | rerdavies wrote:
           | There is no compelling evidence that san-serif fonts are less
           | readable than serif fonts under any circumstance, despite the
           | oft-repeated lore that typographers consider serif fonts to
           | be more readable than sans-serif fonts.
        
         | pinkmuffinere wrote:
         | Interesting! Does it touch on why people initially became so
         | opinionated about serif/sans readability? And what's a
         | meaningful characteristic if not serifs?
         | 
         | I realize it's lazy to just ask, but... 160 pages...
        
           | thaumasiotes wrote:
           | > Does it touch on why people initially became so opinionated
           | about serif/sans readability?
           | 
           | That's the default state of all questions. It doesn't need to
           | be explained.
           | 
           | Why do you think people had opinions on whether Pluto should
           | be called a "planet"?
        
             | necovek wrote:
             | On both cases it is based on some evidence even if they are
             | completely different (one is a question of definition,
             | another of measurement and observation): for Pluto, it is a
             | round lump of rock going around the Sun on it's own
             | separate orbit; for serif vs non-serif, argument is that
             | serifs help with line tracking for eyes depending on the
             | line spacing and line length.
             | 
             | For a meta-study finding a different result, it'd be great
             | to qualify how was the previous research wrong so we learn
             | something from it.
             | 
             | I've marked as something to pick up as I am very curious.
        
               | saghm wrote:
               | > For Pluto, it is a round lump of rock going around the
               | Sun on it's own separate orbit
               | 
               | That was never the reason anyone got upset at it being
               | "demoted", or else they'd be equally upset about all of
               | the other ones that were never planets in the first place
               | (which in fact are in fact the main argument for why it
               | got reclassified). People just don't like change,
               | especially for things that seem like "facts".
        
           | Karliss wrote:
           | Most of those 160 pages, is repetitive mish mash of various
           | historical research (many of questionable quality) on
           | typeface readability loosely grouped by certain themes retold
           | in a way that makes it even less clear about their results,
           | quality and whether testing conditions are useful for making
           | any good conclusions. Little value in reading it all unless
           | you follow references and read what the quoted research
           | actually did and said. The chapters have different thematic,
           | but content and conclusions are very samey -> a bunch of
           | questionable research and research which was inconclusive or
           | didn't observe significant overall advantage of serif vs sans
           | serif.
           | 
           | As for where it came from to me it very much feels like the
           | defense of serif typefaces is largely typographers defending
           | existence of their craft and people talking past each other
           | with overgeneralized claims. There is definitely value in the
           | art and craft of typography and I respect that. It would be
           | too bland if everything used plain sans serif fonts that
           | barely differ from each other, and you can definitely mess up
           | typography making text hard to read when done badly. But I
           | also believe that there is plenty of things based on
           | traditions and "everyone knows x because that's how we have
           | always done it".
           | 
           | As for sans serif for screens the obvious reason and also
           | thing that comes up multiple times is low resolution text. At
           | certain resolution there are simply not enough pixels for
           | serifs. The author of paper suggest that with modern high
           | resolution screens this argument doesn't stand. My personal
           | opinion is that it's not a big issue at sufficiently high
           | text size. But even on somewhat modern 2560x1440 screen I can
           | find plenty of UI elements that have only 7-8 pixels high
           | labels. Not everyone is using retina displays and not
           | everything is long format text. Screen resolutions have
           | increased, but so have information density compared to early
           | computer screens, although there is recent trend of
           | simplifying UI to the point of dumbing it down and adding
           | excessive padding all over the place. There are other screens
           | beside computers and mobile phones, many of them not very
           | high resolution even by standards of early computer screens.
           | It doesn't make sense to put high resolution screen and Linux
           | computer in every little thing. Problem is made worse by lack
           | of antialised text sometimes due to screen, sometimes MCU
           | memory and compute limitations. You are probably not going to
           | have modern font rendering stack on something like black and
           | white washing machine screen, gas station pump or thermostat
           | The research multiple times mentioned stuff like low
           | resolution, but it hardly ever quoted hard numbers in a
           | meaningful way. How many pixels a typeface needs to be
           | comfortably represent serif? How many arcseconds? Surely
           | there must be research related to that one. This might be
           | part of problem for some comparative research - can't compare
           | readability of serif/sans serif if there is no serif typeface
           | at those resolution. Stuff like point 10 or point 12 without
           | additional details is meaningless.
           | 
           | Some personal anecdote -> text antialising has huge effect.
           | Made a sample text of serif and sans serif font and zoomed
           | out to the point where lower case letters are ~6px high. I
           | wouldn't expect there to be enough resolution for serif but
           | you can perceive surprising amount of detail in letter
           | shapes. Zoomed in on screenshot it's a blurry mess, but at
           | normal zoom level the serif letters are fine. It's readable
           | but wouldn't consider either of 2 comfortable. When scaled up
           | to 8px both pieces were still harder to read than same height
           | text in UI labels. Why is that? Why is one identical height
           | sans serif text much more readable than other? Are UI labels
           | better pixel aligned? Is it due to subpixel antialising?
           | That's on a 90deg rotated screen, is subpixel antialising
           | even working properly there?
           | 
           | Just for fun switch OS UI font to serif. Due to font sizing
           | inconsistency it ended up being 1 pixel shorter (7px) than
           | same size default UI font. Can those even be considered
           | serifs when they are hardly a pixel each? It felt weird,
           | nowhere near as bad I expected, but still weird.
        
           | harshreality wrote:
           | Past studies suggested slight differences:
           | 
           | - serif was claimed to lead to better horizontal tracking...
           | so better for long prose _readability_
           | 
           | - sans serif was claimed to lead to better spot-recognition
           | of characters... so better for spot-character/word
           | recognition and _legibility_
           | 
           | Those effects were never very strong, and varied depending on
           | the exact fonts in use (and for digital, font rendering
           | characteristics).
           | 
           | There's also probably an effect based on what you're used to.
           | If most of the books you read are serif (which they would be
           | for older people, since almost all printed books were serif),
           | and your exposure to sans serif was largely via the internet,
           | and you don't like most of what's written on the internet,
           | that might sway you toward serif. Conversely, if you mostly
           | read modern internet text, you might have the opposite bias.
        
             | MarkusQ wrote:
             | I can confirm the later effect; prior to the internet, my
             | primary exposure to sans serif fonts were government
             | documents and forms, and advertisements, neither of which
             | inculcated an association with any virtues.
        
               | rerdavies wrote:
               | Perhaps you should compare government documents and forms
               | from different governments. UK government forms are
               | extraordinarily beautiful, and welcoming, and are easy to
               | fill out. US government forms, on the other hand, seem
               | almost calculated to be unfriendly, and are incredibly
               | difficult to fill out even when you use supporting
               | instructions. It almost seems like they have been
               | deliberately designed so that they cannot be filled out
               | without the assistance of a lawyer. Canadian forms seem
               | pretty neutral, and practical, but are nowhere near as
               | pleasant to fill out as UK forms are.
        
         | IAmBroom wrote:
         | If this were Reddit I'd buy you an award. Consider yourself
         | gold-starred.
        
           | treetalker wrote:
           | Wow, my first HN award! Thank you, kind stranger! :-)
        
             | croisillon wrote:
             | we have a HN Peace Award in reserve too, should the orange
             | man land on the orange website
        
         | saghm wrote:
         | Now my largest question is "which type of font does the book
         | use, and how did they decide on it?"
         | 
         | I can only hope that they split between the two.
        
       | Brajeshwar wrote:
       | My personal experience, if I have to sum it up, would be, "Sans
       | Serif is cleaner and easier for normal reads, such as shorter
       | text, menus, and overall interfaces. Serif for longer reads where
       | I need deeper focus."
        
         | sublinear wrote:
         | I find serifs distracting and "noisy" regardless of text
         | length. Their modern use restricted to headings, wordmarks,
         | etc. makes more sense to me.
         | 
         | We ended up with sans-serif for body text on the web because
         | it's more legibile on low-res screens. I still can't believe
         | that didn't settle the argument right there and then decades
         | ago. If something is easier to read on those crappy old
         | screens, it's easier to read everywhere.
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | Not all "sans-serifs" are similar, i.e. they cannot be put in
           | a single class opposed to serifs.
           | 
           | The sans-serifs designed before WWII have evolved towards a
           | maximum simplification of the letter forms, eliminating not
           | only the serifs, but also the contrast between thin lines and
           | thick lines and also some other details of the shapes that
           | differentiate the letters. The extreme simplification was
           | achieved in some of the "geometric" sans-serifs, where most
           | of the letter shapes were simplified into circles and
           | straight lines. The motivation for shape simplification was
           | that in the beginning the sans serifs were intended for
           | advertising, i.e. for printing on cheap paper with cheap
           | devices, which could not reproduce fine details. More over
           | such texts were intended to be readable from great distances,
           | from where fine details cannot be perceived.
           | 
           | After WWII, some sans-serifs have just reproduced with
           | negligible changes some of the earlier sans-serifs, e.g.
           | Helvetica and the like.
           | 
           | Most of these sans-serifs, like Arial, are extremely bad for
           | use in computers, because they have a lot of ambiguous
           | letters and digits. That mattered less for English texts,
           | which have high redundancy, allowing the guessing of the
           | intended letters, but in computers there are a lot of
           | abbreviations, keywords, identifiers, expressions and other
           | kinds of character strings with low redundancy, where it may
           | be difficult or impossible to recognize the intended letters
           | or digits.
           | 
           | However, there are also several kinds of very different sans-
           | serifs among those designed after WWII, which attempt to
           | remove the disadvantages of the classic sans-serifs.
           | 
           | One kind is the sans-serifs that have only the goal to remove
           | all ambiguities in letters, digits and other symbols, like
           | most of the monospace typefaces intended for programming.
           | 
           | Another kind, besides removing ambiguity also reintroduces
           | some of the letter shapes from serifs, which have been
           | simplified in the classic sans-serifs, e.g. double-storey "g"
           | and "a", old-style digits, distinct shapes for the italic
           | variant of a font, etc. These slightly more complex shapes
           | increase the distinctness of the letters and digits, making
           | them more easily recognizable. An example of such a typeface
           | is FF Meta.
           | 
           | Finally, there is another kind of sans-serifs that also
           | reintroduces the contrast between thin lines and thick lines.
           | Moreover, among these there are typefaces, e.g. Optima or
           | Palatino Sans, which (on displays with high enough
           | resolution) produce an optical effect similar to serifs,
           | which is achieved not with serifs but by replacing the
           | straight side edges of the lines with slightly concave edges.
           | 
           | In my opinion these kinds of sans-serifs that are
           | intermediate between classic serifs and classic sans-serifs
           | are superior to both classic types, especially for computer
           | use.
           | 
           | Despite being less affected by low screen resolutions, the
           | classic sans-serifs like Helvetica, Arial and many others
           | should never be used for anything, because of their ambiguous
           | glyph shapes.
           | 
           | Serifs have non-ambiguous glyph shapes, but they are heavily
           | distorted at low-screen resolutions or when seen from a
           | distance, so they are also not recommended in many
           | applications.
           | 
           | The good choice is in most cases to use one of the sans-
           | serifs with non-ambiguous glyphs, or for a more beautiful
           | text one of the typefaces inspired by FF Meta or one of those
           | inspired by Optima. For example, my default typeface is
           | Palatino Sans.
           | 
           | Any study about the legibility of serif and sans-serif
           | typefaces that does not include a separate category for non-
           | classic sans serifs is deeply flawed and its results are
           | meaningless.
        
             | tasuki wrote:
             | > Not all "sans-serifs" are similar
             | 
             | True, sure.
             | 
             | > i.e. they cannot be put in a single class opposed to
             | serifs.
             | 
             | Not sure I understand you. Are you saying all serif
             | typefaces _are similar_? There 's old style, didone, slab
             | serif. These differ more than the various sans-serif
             | typefaces, which are really all quite similar ;)
        
               | adrian_b wrote:
               | The differences between various kinds of serif typefaces,
               | which consist mostly in which is the width ratio between
               | thin lines and thick lines and between serifs and thin
               | lines, and in some small details of how the lines are
               | terminated are much smaller than the difference between
               | classic sans-serifs and some of the post-WWII sans-
               | serifs, which use different shapes for some of the
               | characters.
               | 
               | The differences between various kinds of serifs are hard
               | to see on a low-resolution computer screen. The didone
               | typefaces cannot be rendered correctly on most computer
               | displays at body text sizes, where they are distorted by
               | greatly reducing the contrast between thin lines and
               | thick lines, which can be seen on printed paper.
               | 
               | At small sizes or from a distance one cannot distinguish
               | the various kinds of serif typefaces, except those with
               | slab serifs, where the serifs remain conspicuous.
               | However, the slab serifs frequently look rather identical
               | with a classic sans serif, except that big serifs are
               | attached to the glyphs, whose only advantage it that they
               | may remove some of the ambiguities, which is one of the
               | reasons why many typefaces for programmers use sans-serif
               | shapes for most characters, but slab-serif shapes for a
               | few of them. (The other reason is specific for monospace
               | typefaces, where slab serifs on the narrow characters
               | ensure a more uniform average color of the text, i.e. a
               | less variable ratio between white areas and black areas.)
               | 
               | On the other hand, the differences in character shapes
               | between something like FF Meta or Palatino Sans or
               | JetBrains Mono vs. Helvetica or Arial are extremely
               | obvious and they matter a lot for legibility.
               | 
               | I agree with you that besides classic serifs from before
               | the Napoleonic wars, classic sans-serifs from before WWII
               | and non-classic sans-serifs, in a legibility study one
               | could include a 4th category, slab serif typefaces, which
               | are distinctive enough from older serif typefaces.
               | 
               | However slab serifs do not have any supporters who claim
               | that they are good for anything else than their original
               | purpose, which was for advertising, the same as for sans-
               | serifs. So nothing is lost by not adding them to a
               | legibility study. On the other hand, not considering non-
               | classic sans-serifs is a methodological mistake, because
               | they are frequently more legible than either classic
               | sans-serifs or classic serifs, so omitting them is like
               | organizing a competition only for known losers.
        
       | willturman wrote:
       | I recently discovered Practical Typography [1] and Typography for
       | Lawyers [2] by Matthew Butterick which have changed the way I've
       | approached presenting information. I would highly recommend each
       | for anyone who uses text to communicate. Butterick is a Tufte for
       | text.
       | 
       | [1] https://practicaltypography.com
       | 
       | [2] https://typographyforlawyers.com.
        
         | unmole wrote:
         | Butterick introduced me to Bitstream Charter for which I'm very
         | greatful. However, I would very strongly urge people to
         | disregard his recommendations for representing hyperlinks.
         | 
         | Instead of just underlining hyperlinks, he has this demented
         | nonsense:
         | 
         | > Cross-references, denoted with small caps, are clickable.
         | 
         | > Links to outside material are denoted with a red circle, like
         | so.
         | 
         | Hyperlinks are almost universally distinguished by underlining
         | them. There is no rational reason to invent a new design
         | language and expect people to learn it. And for what benefit?
         | The seemingly random capitalisation of words and weird circles
         | in the middle of the text makes it much more jarring than
         | simple underlining.
        
           | xamuel wrote:
           | Smallcaps hyperlinks is even worse than it might initially
           | sound: many ESL speakers have difficulty with text written in
           | all-caps, and it totally makes sense why, if you think about
           | it.
        
             | crazygringo wrote:
             | ...why? I'm thinking about it and don't have the slightest
             | idea. And it's not a difficulty I ever came across with my
             | students when I taught ESL.
        
               | xamuel wrote:
               | All-uppercase distorts the shapes, making them unfamiliar
               | to ESL readers who have less practice. You must know that
               | famous meme about how you can read English perfectly fine
               | if the letters (besides first and last) of each word are
               | scrambled: "Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde
               | Uinervtisy..."
               | 
               | Granted, I'm not an expert in this area. I'm actually
               | just relaying what an ESL ex of mine told me. She hated
               | whenever she had to read things like "Calvin and Hobbes"
               | which use all-caps, for this exact reason. Come to think
               | of it, she was Japanese, I wonder if it has to do with
               | growing up with a logographic writing system.
        
               | crazygringo wrote:
               | Uppercase doesn't distort shapes, they're just the
               | uppercase shapes. Reading in all-uppercase is a basic
               | skill that you quickly learn, since it's _extremely_
               | common in signs, titles, etc.
               | 
               | I can understand that learning separate letters for
               | lowercase and uppercase is something that students coming
               | from other writing systems have to learn, the same way I
               | had to learn both uppercase and lowercase in Greek.
               | 
               | But it's just a year-one skill you have to learn. You
               | learn it, fairly quickly, and then you're fine. It's not
               | a reason to avoid using small caps. Generally speaking,
               | by the time your English skills are good enough to read
               | an average paragraph, text in all-uppercase has not been
               | a problem for you for a _long_ time. Vocabulary is the
               | thing that takes a long time to learn, not recognizing
               | words in uppercase.
               | 
               | So while I don't doubt that your ex was telling the truth
               | about Calvin and Hobbes, I think that was just a personal
               | annoyance of hers. It's not a widespread problem. But
               | everybody winds up having their own idiosyncratic
               | annoyances with foreign languages.
        
         | wodenokoto wrote:
         | It is kinda funny you recommend those books as a reaction to
         | the linked book.
         | 
         | > Nowadays, we expect such matters to be determined by
         | empirical evidence, not by majority opinion. This book is
         | concerned with the empirical evidence concerning the relative
         | legibility of serif typefaces and sans serif typefaces
         | 
         | Meanwhile Buttericks books are very much "some guys opinion".
         | Granted, that guy has a big passion, but at the end of the day,
         | his books are not grounded in empirical evidence.
        
       | 2b3a51 wrote:
       | Thanks for the-mitr for posting this.
       | 
       | I have only scanned the contents of Part 1 (reading from paper)
       | and read chapter 6 quickly, because that is the only chapter that
       | considers the issue of the layout of the printed material.
       | 
       | My interest in this question is mainly in presenting short
       | paragraphs of text in paper worksheets and handouts for teaching.
       | Teacher training courses tend to echo the 'sans for dyslexics'
       | notion but _in addition_ suggest the use of headings with space
       | before and after and the use of bullet points to break up
       | material, the use of right-ragged (for LTR languages) so that
       | inter-word spacing remains constant, and the use of line spacing
       | chosen so that the space between the lines is a bit longer than
       | the spacing between the words. The choice of typeface is seen as
       | being a bit less important (as long as it is consistent within
       | the handout) given that secondary school children will be
       | familiar with a range of type faces.
       | 
       | Now I'm trying to find some kind of reference for this view about
       | presentation of the page. If anyone has any ideas that would be
       | ace.
       | 
       | The British Dyslexia Association provide this pdf
       | 
       | https://www.thedyslexia-spldtrust.org.uk/media/downloads/69-...
        
       | xamuel wrote:
       | I didn't read the OP but one pet peeve of mine is the uppercase I
       | vs. lowercase L in sans-serif. Especially in contexts like
       | randomly-generated passwords which you have to manually copy for
       | whatever reason. Does the article address this in any way? Or is
       | the context limited to "real" language where that's not as much
       | of an issue?
        
         | extra88 wrote:
         | That's only a problem with some sans-serif fonts. This very
         | site is using a sans-serif and the capital 'I' has bars in
         | either end so it's not confused with 'l'.
         | 
         | Some sans-serif fonts do add little flourishes to some letters,
         | like 'l', to further distinguish them.
        
           | user_7832 wrote:
           | > That's only a problem with some sans-serif fonts. This very
           | site is using a sans-serif and the capital 'I' has bars in
           | either end so it's not confused with 'l'.
           | 
           | I'm not sure if my browser is broken or what but they
           | literally look identical to me in your comment.
        
             | keiferski wrote:
             | Probably your browser. They look different to me.
        
               | hirako2000 wrote:
               | And that's the argument for serif. If you set sans serif
               | the OS may pick one or another font, and that choice may
               | change over time.
               | 
               | By publishing with serif you are guaranteed there will be
               | a clearer distinction.
               | 
               | But txet is contxtual you can evn miss letres entrly yet
               | be lgibl.
               | 
               | The over a hundred page long research paper makes
               | conclusion off a practical study, not encumbered by
               | intuitive clues that typically make us think serif lead
               | to more legibility.
        
               | user_7832 wrote:
               | Yeah, that was interesting.
               | 
               | I replied to that comment on Kiwi (chromium), android.
               | The two letters were literally identical (I even zoomed
               | in).
               | 
               | On desktop (also chromium)... the difference is obvious.
               | I don't know if it's an android vs windows thing? Or
               | what? But it's definitely something.
        
             | MathMonkeyMan wrote:
             | font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif;
             | 
             | My computer has neither Verdana nor Geneva, and my
             | browser's default sans-serif is Noto Sans, which has bars
             | on the upper case "I".
             | 
             | Verdana does, too. It looks like Geneva does not
             | (<http://www.identifont.com/show?1O3>), so you're probably
             | using Geneva.
             | 
             | Maybe Verdana is the default for Windows, Geneva for MacOS,
             | and "other" for Linuxes.
        
               | xamuel wrote:
               | One place where the big i and small L look almost
               | identical, and a pretty funny/annoying place for them to
               | do so, is when you're typing a WiFi password in OSX (if
               | you toggle "Show password"), at least as of MacOS
               | Monterey 12.1. I also see them as almost identical in my
               | browser's URL bar (Firefox 148.0.2 on aforesaid version
               | of OSX) which isn't just an annoyance but might even be a
               | security concern!
        
           | mr_mitm wrote:
           | Aren't those bars the serifs? So you're saying the sans-serif
           | I has serifs?
           | 
           | Hacker news uses sans-serif font and in all my browsers the I
           | and l look nearly identical btw.
        
             | MathMonkeyMan wrote:
             | I think the serifs would be embellishments at the ends of
             | the bars, not the bars themselves.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serif
        
             | pbhjpbhj wrote:
             | This might be a question of philosophy! I suspect that they
             | were originally serifs - see inscriptions to Julius Caesar,
             | say (such inscriptions being the inspiration for Trajan
             | font) - but for some writers they were extended to become
             | part of the letter body, akin to the bar on the top of
             | capital-T.
             | 
             | My take then is, originally they were serifs, now they are
             | sometimes part of the letter form.
        
           | boredhedgehog wrote:
           | According to the CSS, this site requests the fonts Verdana or
           | Geneva in order, and what you say about the capital 'I' is
           | true for the former but not the latter.
        
           | mrgoldenbrown wrote:
           | Not for me. The font we are all seeing depends on our browser
           | and whether we have the requested fonts. No bars on the sans
           | serif my Firefox on Android is displaying.
        
         | kybernetikos wrote:
         | It's surprisingly rare for fonts to be careful to distinguish
         | not just Il1| but also 0O 2Z "'' 5S B8. I typically set my
         | system font to something that does, like Atkinson hyperlegible.
        
         | rerdavies wrote:
         | Perhaps, a well-designed random password generate should not
         | use 1, l, or I. Or 0, or O. (I know mine don't).
        
           | Terr_ wrote:
           | Now I'm imagining an unrealistically-nerdy world where all
           | secret entry/display widgets let you flip between different
           | representations.
           | 
           | So a form might have a choices between ASCII, Hex, Base52,
           | Base64, or schemes with anti-typo check digits, etc.
        
       | somat wrote:
       | After reading an old 1870's sign painting book I really like the
       | historical terms. There is roman style and egyptian style.
       | 
       | https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/signpaintersguid00ga...
        
       | dimaqq wrote:
       | Surprisingly, some languages are better read in more specific
       | fonts.
       | 
       | Maybe it's just a matter of familiarity, but I think it's more
       | than that.
       | 
       | Reading hs.fi in their font of choice in Finnish is just fine,
       | but auto-translated to English (in the same font) feels oh so
       | wrong!
       | 
       | P.S.
       | 
       | Reading hacker news in English in HN font of choice is just fine,
       | while the same sentence translated to Finnish (still in HN font)
       | is mostly OK, but a little worse.
       | 
       | My very uneducated opinion is that doubled consonants and vowels
       | are very common in Finnish, and those are better read with more
       | aggressive kerning, something that HN sanf serif doesn't do.
       | 
       | Example: - lattia on laavaa tallilla - floor is lava in a garage
        
         | coxmi wrote:
         | Is there a general preference for serifs, or a local style in
         | Finland for this reason?
         | 
         | German certainly has typographic preferences that err toward
         | taller x-heights and narrower forms due to heavy use of
         | portmanteaus. It'd be interesting to know of other language-
         | specific typographic styles too.
        
       | tasuki wrote:
       | This sounds like a nonsense comparison, no? Surely we can agree
       | that different typefaces have different legibility? And yes, some
       | are serif and some are sans-serif. Also context matters.
       | 
       | Grouping "serif" and grouping "sans-serif" and comparing the
       | groups' legibility is just a stupid undertaking to begin with.
        
         | IAmBroom wrote:
         | It's certainly not nonsense; it's directly addressing myths
         | created by inadequate or misinterpreted studies.
        
       | gcanyon wrote:
       | A long time ago I was in a motorcycle accident, and spent a month
       | in the ICU, intubated, unable to talk. My wife made a spelling
       | board for me to communicate by pointing at the letters. It took
       | me forever to explain that it had to be sans serif, because it
       | was big plain letters. And now this is telling me it didn't
       | matter!? :-)
        
         | kerkeslager wrote:
         | I believe you when you say it mattered to you, but:
         | 
         | 1. Your experience is likely an outlier--I'm not saying your
         | experience doesn't matter, I'm saying that your experience and
         | experiences like yours are likely not represented significantly
         | in the data.
         | 
         | 2. Other people with outlier experiences may have different
         | needs, i.e. an intervention which improves one reader's
         | experience may make another reader's experience worse.
         | 
         | I did some web accessibility work which involved interviewing a
         | number of disabled clients, and the ultimate conclusion was
         | that we needed to make our site colors configurable. One group
         | with visual impairment needed high contrast, while a few
         | clients with sensory issues were unable to use the site for
         | long when high contrast was used because it was
         | overstimulating. The lower-contrast modes also had issues for
         | colorblind clients, although these clients were less common in
         | the user pool.
         | 
         | In typical American corporate fashion, the entire research
         | results were scrapped when a donor wanted us to use color
         | schemes related to our brand, despite overwhelmingly positive
         | feedback from users on our accessibility configurability.
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | One thing goes through my mind on this; why _the hell_ is this so
       | hard for people to just pick individually? We could have built
       | the web and apps differently to just more-or-less work the same
       | as most ebook readers. PICK WHAT YOU LIKE.
        
       | tombert wrote:
       | Honestly what seems to matter more than anything, at least to me,
       | is the _size_ of the text, not so much the font face itself.
       | 
       | I keep all my text on my computer cartoonishly large, just
       | because I find it 10x easier to read if I do. Who am I trying to
       | impress? Computer fonts are dynamic for a reason, I don't care if
       | it looks like it's made for a blind person.
        
       | kerkeslager wrote:
       | This seems pretty intent on burying the lead.
       | 
       | The long conclusion seems to be that all the conventional wisdom
       | on the subject is not borne out by the empirical evidence. So why
       | spend so much time explaining all the the conventional wisdom? I
       | don't need you to tell me about 100 people's opinions just to
       | tell me they're all wrong.
        
         | qingcharles wrote:
         | * burying the lede
        
       | SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
       | Personally I only care when distinguishing individual letters
       | matters. So things like paths, URIs, passwords, math, & email
       | addresses should be in a font with as few 'confusable' letters as
       | possible. E.g. variables a & a in an equation should look
       | different, I, 1, & l should look different, 0, o, and O should
       | look different, etc. These are almost always easily
       | distinguishable in serif typefaces, and often indistinguishable
       | in sans-serif typefaces, so I tend to prefer using serif
       | typefaces as a default fallback. But it's easy enough to find a
       | sans-serif typeface that's also easy to read all the individual
       | letters in, and sans-serif fonts tend to be a bit easier to read
       | at small text sizes, so I use one of those (a customized Iosevka)
       | for most things on my laptop.
        
       | saghm wrote:
       | Given the font on the cover of the book I have no choice but to
       | assume that this is book is a plant by pro-sans serif interests.
       | You can't fool me!
        
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