[HN Gopher] Migrating to the EU
___________________________________________________________________
Migrating to the EU
Author : exitnode
Score : 802 points
Date : 2026-03-23 10:17 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (rz01.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (rz01.org)
| sph wrote:
| I'm also pretty much using 100% EU services except FastMail.
| Nothing against the Aussies, but I'd rather use something local,
| with servers within the EU.
|
| But I don't think there's anything as good as Fastmail this side
| of the pond, and I'm not prepared to compromise on this just yet.
| I might self-host email despite all the dangers the day FM
| decides to enshittify itself.
| ktta wrote:
| ProtonMail? Not strictly speaking EU, but atleast EEA
|
| It also comes with a whole suite of software that you don't
| have to find EU alternatives for like Calendar, Drive, Password
| manager, etc
| sph wrote:
| I like privacy, but a service that's focused on maximum
| possible privacy for its users paints a target on its back
| for any three-letter agency, as it will attract a large
| contingent of unsavoury people.
| mvdwoord wrote:
| I just onboarded and was dumbfounded that they do not allow
| for proper calendar exposure other than a fully public link!
| The claim of zero knowledge is super cute, for those that
| need it, but I need a provider which allows me to integrate
| the calendar elsewhere, as those will not magically move into
| Proton. I guess I am not in their target market.
| yellowsir wrote:
| https://mailcow.email/vps/
| ongy wrote:
| I love fastmail, but I really wish they had servers close to
| me.
|
| The high ping kills the throughput on davfs and makes their
| website hosting a pain to update :(
| josephg wrote:
| Where abouts are you located?
| ongy wrote:
| Smack center of Europe (southern Germany) Got >100ms pings.
| josephg wrote:
| Heh I'm sorry to hear that. The whole internet is that
| slow for us here in Australia.
| antics9 wrote:
| https://tuta.com/ and Protonmail
| perakojotgenije wrote:
| https://mailbox.org/
|
| German e-mail service
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Seconding this - reasonable pricing and I haven't had any
| issues at all with the service. I haven't used FastMail but
| most things I read suggest they are very similar in terms of
| what they offer so I would think Mailbox is a good EU
| alternative for someone who likes FastMail. (There are also
| other EU providers like Tuta but with slightly different
| trade-offs, ie, more emphasis on privacy but at the expense
| of IMAP/SMTP support.)
| eigenspace wrote:
| I switched to mailbox recently and I'm finding it quite good.
| I set it up with a custom domain, and that did require a bit
| of fuzting around, but the friction there was almost all on
| the side of my VPS hosting service, not Mailbox's fault.
| heinrich5991 wrote:
| I've used https://migadu.com/ before. Not EU, but EEA
| (Switzerland).
| evan_a_a wrote:
| I'm using Startmail, based in NL: https://www.startmail.com
| sph wrote:
| Not sure why I got downvoted for saying none of the dozen
| alternatives people have suggested are anything close to
| Fastmail. I guess none of you have even tried Fastmail. I am a
| big fan of its UI, and they have recently released and official
| Linux client.
| I_am_tiberius wrote:
| Codeberg is only for FOSS projects. Is there some good European
| hosting provider for git? I really don't want to self host git.
| lynx97 wrote:
| Git is extremely easy to "self host". What makes things
| complicated are the web interfaces around code hosting, and all
| their supposedly important features. These days, Prs, issues,
| forums, wikis and all that seem to be synonymous with "git",
| which is pretty weird.
| ptsneves wrote:
| Which is ironic because PR is definitely alien to git. There
| is no such git concept as a PR, nor git pr command.
|
| Coming from a pure git workflow in mailing lists where
| branches, and commits(and associated diff and git am
| metadata) are the unit of work, I struggled to adapt into the
| PR concept in the beginning.
|
| I liked to work with gerrit, where the unit of the review is
| the commit. This also ensured a nice little history and
| curation of the change set. The commit in github is not even
| in the main tab of the PR. It is like it is a second thought.
| Even in the review, reviewing by commit is awkward and
| discouraged.
| _flux wrote:
| There are the commands git request-pull and git send-email
| to work with that workflow, though.
| kace91 wrote:
| What do you mean by supposedly?
|
| The PR model is pretty much universal for a reason. I get why
| it is considered out of scope for core git, but it is by no
| means a weird fixation people have.
| lynx97 wrote:
| Just send me an email with your branches URL, and I will
| pull from it. Thats pretty much what a Pull Request is.
| hvb2 wrote:
| And the discussion about that PR goes in an email chain
| too?
|
| You can pull, but having the back and forth documented
| along with the code is not a nice to have imho
| spiffyk wrote:
| Not that it fits everyone, but that is basically how the
| Linux kernel is being developed.
| cyanydeez wrote:
| Guys, guys, I'm just vibe coding here; just give me your
| credentials and mothers maiden name and I'll get it
| myself.
| lynx97 wrote:
| If it is not in git log, a few months down the drain,
| nobody will read the PR discussion anyway.
| kace91 wrote:
| >Thats pretty much what a Pull Request is.
|
| Then you have to use email for the review conversation,
| make the discussion easily available to everyone involved
| and future devs, track manually which comment refers to
| which line of the diff due to lack of overlaying,
| manually ping to warn of updates, rely on manual quoting,
| no direct information on whether the CI pipeline
| succeeded...
|
| To me that feels like writing code using only sed. It is
| _possible_ , but it removes or makes convoluted an absurd
| degree of regular work.
| Jnr wrote:
| You are correct, but integration with CI/CD and other
| services as a part of pull-request process in a modern
| platform is very convenient. I would not go back to
| e-mail. Especially since I can self host the whole
| platform like Gitea.
| rapnie wrote:
| Because there isn't really a good name. In FOSS circles the
| name "code forge" is often used, and then OP might say "git-
| based code forge" instead. But both Github and Gitlab don't
| consider themself (and aren't) code forges. The term doesn't
| carry the load of the product positioning. So "hosting
| provider for git" is a pretty good description imho.
| rapnie wrote:
| Regarding Forgejo [0] there are a number of other open
| providers listed on the delightful forgejo [1] curated list. In
| addition there is a Professional services repository [2] where
| services are listed in the issue tracker.
|
| [0] https://forgejo.org
|
| [1] https://delightful.coding.social/delightful-
| forgejo/#public-...
|
| [2] https://codeberg.org/forgejo/professional-services/issues
| petcat wrote:
| devault made sourcehut which I think is hosted in the
| netherlands
|
| https://sr.ht
|
| I tried it once, it's very opinionated and may not be suitable
| for what a lot of people think of when they're coming from
| something like Github. The required old-school patch-by-mail
| thing is a blocker for a lot of people.
| p2detar wrote:
| I self-host Forgejo on a Docker container. Thinking about it,
| this is actually the right way to go.
|
| If you got public projects, then something like Codeberg is in
| fact the place to go. If you got private projects, why push to
| someone's cloud-hosted git service at all? Push to your own
| service like Forgejo and sync backups to a local hard-drive or
| even online using rclone.
| nottorp wrote:
| Because I don't mind paying github $4 or $7 and not worry
| about the admin burden.
|
| Of course, this goes for simpler setups where you only use
| the git hosting part. Because to switch providers you only
| have to change the remote and push.
|
| If you got yourself dependent on their other pipelines, it's
| more complicated.
| teekert wrote:
| Uhm, is it? I have some small repos there, which are private
| and for my company (ie the website). I didn't encounter any
| warnings?
|
| Edit, it says indeed (right in your face on the front page):
|
| Codeberg is a non-profit, community-led effort that provides
| services to free and open-source projects, such as Git hosting.
|
| I just click... click opened a repo and set it as remote and
| boom. Never thought anything of it... Perhaps I'm... Tolerated
| for the time being?
| PurpleRamen wrote:
| You are just a glitch in their system. They won't check the
| content of private repos, and they probably also do not check
| if there is free software hosted at the same account, so you
| might have found the hole in their good will.
|
| But their limit seems around 100 MB storage-usage, so I guess
| it's within their abilities to tolerate some glitches.
| teekert wrote:
| Ah ok, well, save for some drafts I wouldn't mind opening
| the repo which is just a Hugo system intended for a public
| website anyway. But good to know. Perhaps I will self-host
| that forgejo instance then :)
| sam_lowry_ wrote:
| Here's a step-by step guide:
|
| Change directory to your local git repository that you want to
| share with friends and colleagues and do a bare clone git clone
| --bare . /tmp/repo.git You just created a copy of the .git
| folder without all the checked out files.
|
| Upload /tmp/repo.git to your linux server over ssh. Don't have
| one? Just order a tiny cloud server from Hetzner or another
| European provider. You can place your git repository anywhere,
| but the best way is to put it in a separate folder, e.g.
| /var/git. The command would look like with scp -r /tmp/repo.git
| me@server:/var/git/.
|
| To share the repository with others, create a group, e.g.
| groupadd --users me git You will be able to add more users to
| the group with groupmod.
|
| Your git repository is now writable only by me. To make it
| writable by the git group, you have to change the group on all
| files in the repository to git with chgrp -R git /var/repo.git
| and enable the group write bit on them with chmod -R g+w
| /var/repo.git.
|
| This fixes the shared access for existing files. For new files,
| we have to make sure the group write bit is always on by
| changing UMASK from 022 to 002 in /etc/login.defs.
|
| There is one more trick. For now on, all new files and folders
| in /var/git will be created with the user's primary group. We
| could change users to have git as the primary group.
|
| But we can also force all new files and folders to be created
| with the parent folder's group and not user primary group. For
| that, set the group sticky bit on all folders in /var/git with
| find /var/git -type d -exec chmod g+s \\{\\} +
|
| You are done.
|
| Want to host your git repository online? Install caddy and
| point to /var/git with something like
| example.com { root * /var/git file_server
| }
|
| Your git repository will be instantly accessible via
| https://example.com/repo.git.
| olavgg wrote:
| Gitea is one of the easiest projects to to self-host. And to do
| regular upgrades, you only need to update one file. It has been
| a joy to self-host for many years now.
| Jnr wrote:
| I don't even update one file. I run it in docker with daily
| automatic container updates and it has been working fine
| without issues for years.
| cyanydeez wrote:
| gitlab ce is easy to host.
| christophilus wrote:
| I think Sourcehut is EU based now.
| AndrewDucker wrote:
| I am boggled by the number of people who see "I really don't
| want to X" and then reply with "Here's how to easily do X!"
| thijsw wrote:
| Yes, check out https://www.gitlabhost.com/ It is based in the
| Netherlands
| roelschroeven wrote:
| AFAICS the cheapest option is 250EUR/month. That seems geared
| towards businesses, not individuals.
| I_am_tiberius wrote:
| Crazy expensive for small projects
| fanatic2pope wrote:
| For just the basics, self-hosting of git can be pretty easy. I
| use gitolite on a VPS.
|
| https://gitolite.com/gitolite/
| layer8 wrote:
| Take a look at https://www.lcube-webhosting.de/en/svn-hosting-
| repositoryonl..., starts at 2.90 Euro. No personal experience,
| but the fact that they are still including SVN support tells
| you how long-established they are.
|
| Google reviews:
| https://www.google.com/search?q=lcube&ludocid=91685905651961...
| dethos wrote:
| One of the other comments mentions https://codefloe.com. I
| haven't tested and haven't yet checked their background, but
| they seem to allow private repositories.
| I_am_tiberius wrote:
| That sounds good. I'm a bit confused about missing pricing.
| It says free tier is generous but I can't find any prices.
| icy wrote:
| https://tangled.org :) We're hosted in the EU.
| sobiolite wrote:
| I'm not with I could ever migrate away from Gmail, even if I
| wanted to. I have so many accounts and services linked to it.
| fsflover wrote:
| Set up the redirect and change the emails of your services one
| by one whenever you have a minute of time. It took a year for
| me, and I am free now.
| sylens wrote:
| It's easier than you think when you stop trying to treat it as
| an all or nothing move and more of a gradual migration.
| Fastmail makes it really easy to keep the two in sync
| vertnerd wrote:
| If you are using a password manager, start by searching for
| every record with your gmail address. Make a list. Every day,
| go to the next entry on the list and change your email with
| that app or service.
|
| Of course, set up gmail to forward messages to your new address
| and filter them into a folder. Once you have changed all the
| services you know about, watch for emails coming to the gmail
| folder, looking for more services that need to be updated.
| Eventually the only thing arriving in the folder is spam and
| you can just route it all into the garbage.
| mhitza wrote:
| Took me a year of slow migration so that my essential emails
| and connected services don't go over Gmail. Email is the
| hardest to move because of its central nature as an online
| identity.
| microtonal wrote:
| Don't make the same mistake again, get a domain so that you can
| keep using the same address when switching between providers.
| Then set up GMail to forward e-mail to your new address. Then
| slowly update the E-mail address in your account. You could
| even set up a label that gets attached to e-mails that arrived
| through your GMail address. In that way, you can easily see the
| stuff that still needs to be updated.
|
| Untangling yourself from Google (or Apple, which is similarly
| hard), doesn't have to be all at once. Break it up in small
| steps that feel like individual wins.
|
| One more note about using your own domain: avoid provider-
| specifict features like subdomain addressing (made it more work
| for me to move off Fastmail).
| ralferoo wrote:
| Nowadays, I primarily only use gmail because the mail client is
| good on Android. But all my accounts have been self-hosted for
| years now and gmail just reads them via POP3 (never managed to
| get it happy with IMAP for some reason) and sends via my own
| SMTP.
|
| Can anyone recommend actually decent and free Android (and also
| web) mail clients for self-hosted use? Everything I've tried so
| far (but to be fair, it was a few years ago when I last
| checked) just felt clunky compared to gmail, so I've ended up
| sticking with it as a client far longer than I probably should.
| Grumbledour wrote:
| I've been using FairEmail[1] for some years now as a
| replacement and find it superior to the gmail app. Of course,
| depending on your needs and tastes, I could also understand
| calling it a bit clunky. It is FOSS, but has a one time pay
| premium option for some advanced features. But really, it's
| also just fair to support the dev by buing the app. My only
| complaint would be, that there are to many updates, but of
| course, you can just ignore them and do them every few months
| instead.
|
| [1] https://email.faircode.eu/
| 4k93n2 wrote:
| thunderbird (formerly k9 mail) is a decent enough android
| app, but im not very picky when it comes to email either so
| keep that in mind. ive been using it with posteo for about 2
| years now
| iso1631 wrote:
| I let my old 4 letter .com domain expire around 2000ish and got
| suckered into the whole gmail etc thing after sitting on
| university and hotmail for a while
|
| In 2019 I decided enough was enough and registered a new domain
| and started moving my accounts over as new ones came up, or I
| updated addressing
|
| I have very little left on gmail now other than spam from old
| services I no longer use. Top one in the inbox at the moment is
| Facebook telling my I have "530 notifications about X". Its sad
| how desperate they are.
| threethirtytwo wrote:
| There's no point in switching. Most of these people are dealing
| with a threat that has an extremely low probability of
| happening. It is not in any practical way going to affect your
| life and for most of the people here busy switching to EU
| services they likely don't have any major example of where it
| has affect them or anyone one degree away from them.
|
| It's mostly an ideal. Like OSS. The practical reality means
| that such extreme adherence to only EU services doesn't do
| anything but make your life harder. It's like saying you only
| use open source, from the CPU to the GPU to your OS and
| everything else... make it all from open source, how big of a
| nightmare would that be? The only time it is practical is if
| you're doing really illegal shit and you need the data
| protection.
| jobigoud wrote:
| > doesn't do anything but make your life harder.
|
| No it also encourages the local market and healthy
| competition. This way in the future we don't fall into the
| same enshittification trap.
| thejohnconway wrote:
| Honestly, the instability of the political environment in US
| feels so extreme, that it seems like something could bite you
| that you didn't even see coming.
|
| Just on the Gmail front: maybe Trump decides to trade embargo
| you country and pressures Google to cut off email access.
| Maybe he decides Google needs to be broken up and sold for
| parts, and Gmail's data goes to Truth Social. Maybe he thinks
| illegal immigrants or "radical left wing lunatics" shouldn't
| have access to American email providers and gets Google to
| start suspending accounts based on a some criteria. Maybe
| some of this seems far fetched, but we are talking about a
| president who threatened to to go to war with one of
| America's closest allies.
|
| The non-American west's exposure to the instability is too
| high, and already affecting people. Switching software
| providers where possible is something that can be done
| quickly, and relatively easily by individuals in the short
| term.
| nottorp wrote:
| With google, the problem is that their "AI" can randomly ban
| you though. And the only recourse is making it to the top of
| HN. If that even works any more.
| sodapopcan wrote:
| I did it with tons of accounts and services linked. It's not
| anywhere as daunting as you'd think (and I thought). Although
| it seems you don't want to move away from it so I'm not sure
| what point your comment serves to make.
| 4k93n2 wrote:
| i thought the same but ive actually moved twice now. first to
| protonmail whenever that came out, then again a few years ago
| to posteo. it actually didnt feel like that much work in the
| end. i set up forwarding and switched over a few accounts every
| week. i still kept my gmail account around for years just in
| case but there will be a point where you just know you have all
| the important things switched over
| appstorelottery wrote:
| I would add Hetzner for hosting. German based, solid in my
| experience with virtual servers.
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| In Germany, netcup (https://www.netcup.com/) is also quite
| popular among customers who are
|
| - small or midsize companies, or
|
| - "hacker-minded people" (I know quite some "hacker-minded
| people" who rent a server or vServer at netcup),
|
| since they offer quite a bit of value for the money. In
| opposite to Hetzner, netcup is more of an inside tip.
| poolnoodle wrote:
| Also https://uberspace.de/en/
| dewey wrote:
| That's the host mentioned 6 times in the article.
| madflo wrote:
| I have been a customer of OVH's new Zimbra Starter service. It
| works for my personal and professional needs, CalDAV and
| ActiveSync are active. I do not use the web interface so no
| feedback on this.
| choo-t wrote:
| Does their Zimbra implementation support 2FA ?
| BoredPositron wrote:
| Blast from the past... I really miss fluxbox but I also need
| Wayland because of different refresh rate monitors and the last
| time I checked waybox wasn't there yet.
| _osud wrote:
| How comfortable are you guys with the fact that EU countries
| allow prosecutors and sometimes even police officers to issue
| their own search warrants without meaningful judicial review?
| Some EU courts will not exclude illegally obtained evidence
| either, so challenging the warrant later on will be pointless.
|
| Oh, and you might be in a reasonable EU country and still be hit
| with an EIO from one of the unreasonable countries. This is
| especially concerning given recent ECJ rulings increasingly
| directing courts in receiving nations to blindly defer to the
| requesting party when dealing with EAWs, EIOs and similar.
|
| Worth considering when hosting in the EU.
| andix wrote:
| No system is perfect. It's more a theoretical risk for now, if
| you're not running a shady business.
| noosphr wrote:
| The police will of course decide if you are running a shady
| business.
| rithdmc wrote:
| Nintendo may also decide this.
|
| https://www.pcgamer.com/hardware/uk-games-collector-
| raided-b...
| alpineman wrote:
| At least there is still the rule of law and democracy in the EU
| _osud wrote:
| Is there really? Governments routinely go against the ECHR
| and the ECJ, and do nothing to rectify past violations when
| ruled against.
|
| On a national level, sure.
| input_sh wrote:
| Considering who we're comparing it to when discussing this
| topic: absolutely. Not even a question.
|
| Anyone claiming otherwise is delusional at best.
| Levitz wrote:
| A whole lot of websites are inaccessible from my country
| when there's football on, due to a judicial order meant
| to curb piracy.
|
| The whole deal with Chat Control is also not to be
| forgotten. I do think you guys see this place with rose
| tinted glasses sometimes.
| input_sh wrote:
| Does that football scenario mean that the rule of law
| doesn't exist or that it _does_ exist and is being
| enforced?
|
| I agree with you that both of those laws are stupid, but
| that's a completely separate discussion to what I'm
| claiming above.
| _osud wrote:
| Depends on how you interpret the ECHR.
|
| Does it allow blocking half the internet during football
| games?
|
| It almost certainly does not: https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/
| fre#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-115705%...
|
| AFAIU this is common because lower courts often
| deliberately choose to not try to interpret ECHR, leaving
| that for appeals courts.
| input_sh wrote:
| I interpret ECHR as what it is: not a regulatory body by
| any stretch of the imagination. It can recommend changes
| to the national law, but it cannot force any state to do
| so. You seem to be interpreting it as some sort of an
| equivalent to the US supreme court, which it is not.
|
| But now we're straying even further from my original
| argument which boils down to "laws mean something" into
| arguing the intricacies of how laws are supposed to be
| changed. I'm not interested in having that discussion, as
| it has nothing to do with my original claim.
| _osud wrote:
| ECHR decisions are (supposed to be) legally binding. If
| they're not obeyed, that's not a good look for rule of
| law in Europe.
|
| ECHR decisions are certainly not mere recommendations.
|
| >It can recommend changes to the national law, but it
| cannot force any state to do so
|
| ECHR can simply invalidate national law.
| input_sh wrote:
| According to whom? You?
|
| The only thing ECHR cares about is one piece of
| "legislation", which is not a law, but a declaration
| (Declaration of Human Rights), so that you have some sort
| of internationally recognised body to go to whenever you
| feel that your local judicial system has done you
| injustice. That is all it does. That is all it is meant
| to do. That is the sole reason of its existence. It is
| not a legislative body _at all_.
|
| > ECHR can simply invalidate national law.
|
| It can't. You're either making things up or severely
| misunderstanding the court. It can say "this law doesn't
| align with the Declaration" and that's it. The law still
| exists. ECHR relies on signatories being _willing_ to
| make the necessary changes themselves. Some are and get
| right on it, some aren 't. The election law in my country
| has lost 5 cases in the ECHR and not a single one of the
| verdicts are fixed as of now, the oldest of which dates
| back to 2009. This is horrible, I _want to_ see them
| fixed, but ECHR can 't force us to fix it and we as in
| the country face 0 consequences for not addressing any of
| them (as of yet).
|
| There is a separate court called European Court of
| Justice which _is_ the equivalent of the US supreme court
| and is tasked with interpreting EU-wide laws and making
| sure national laws are aligned as much as possible. That
| _is_ a legislative body with an enforcement mechanism.
| ECHR is not, you don 't know what you're talking about.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Which cases are you talking about? Compliance with actual
| court rulings is pretty high.
| rithdmc wrote:
| It took Ireland years from an ECHR ruling to rule buggery
| was not unlawful, and Ireland was given a special
| exemption to the EUs abortion laws which remained in
| place for 26 years.
| _osud wrote:
| Want a particularly egregious example? Here: https://eur-
| lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:62...
|
| Police in many EU countries was systematically searching
| suspects phones without mandatory due process. This was
| _prima facie_ illegal, everyone involved knew it. They
| did it regardless.
|
| Yeah, this decision eventually resulted in many
| governments issuing new guidance, and some countries
| rewriting their national legislation. Is that a big
| victory for the rule of law? I think not, the national
| governments should not be knowingly violating the ECHR in
| the first place.
| rafram wrote:
| The baseline level of freedom of speech in the EU, in
| particular, is much, much worse than in the US. We're talking
| about a group of countries with active, enforced blasphemy
| laws! Completely unthinkable for Americans.
| microtonal wrote:
| The US is at position 57 in the world free speech index.
| Virtually all EU countries do better and a bunch are top
| 10:
|
| https://rsf.org/en/index
|
| American exceptionalism doesn't seem to know boundaries.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| You linked to a site about press freedom, which is a
| subset of free speech and not generally what Americans
| are talking about when they talk about freedom of speech.
| dudefeliciano wrote:
| "Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free
| exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or
| of the press."
|
| that does not imply one being the subset of the other to
| me, if anything they are clearly defined and therefore
| clearly separate.
|
| Trump refuses to answer simple questions and attacks and
| mocks reporters, that's if they're lucky and he doesn't
| directly sue them for millions/billions. Hell, the white
| house banned Associated Press. Is that free speech or
| freedom of the press?
| _osud wrote:
| Are you sure "the press" doesn't just refer to physical
| printing presses there?
| rafram wrote:
| It's worth reading the specific actions they cite that
| lower the US's ranking. They include the closure of Voice
| of America, a government-run propaganda outlet for
| foreign audiences (and I do think that closure is bad!
| just not relevant at all to free speech); mergers of
| several big media conglomerates; not to mention,
| bafflingly, restrictions on journalism by the Iranian
| government in Iran, which somehow counts against the US.
|
| None of this says anything about Americans' right to
| speak freely, which is absolute, unlike in any European
| country.
| dudefeliciano wrote:
| Can you quote it? Did not see any of those things you are
| mentioning.
|
| https://rsf.org/en/country/united-states
| kubb wrote:
| But their free speech protects bribing the politicians
| with campaign donations. It's true that we don't have
| such advanced laws over here.
| dudefeliciano wrote:
| > freedom of speech
|
| Oh please. There's free speech without a free press (US
| ranks 57/190, behind Sierra Leone) people are just
| amplifying the same BS they heard from some ignorant
| influencer. I would argue even your idea of "active
| enforced blasphemy laws" shows that. That's worse than
| useless, that is detrimental to a society (case in point,
| the current president and his whole cabinet).
|
| https://rsf.org/en/index
| rafram wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47492709
| Bewelge wrote:
| Boiling down the different approaches to freedom of speech
| to "The baseline level is higher/lower", has always been a
| pretty simplistic (and if you would actually delve into the
| topic a little, flat out wrong) view .
|
| Freedom of speech is not absolute. Neither in Europe nor in
| the US. Both effectively have rules restricting certain
| speech. For example, speech that may harm others, such as
| inciting violence or maybe the most famous example:
| "Shouting FIRE in a full venue".
|
| European countries tend to spell out these restrictions
| more explicitly. It's completely reasonable to disagree
| with these restrictions. But the simple existence of them
| shouldn't lead you to the conclusion that one is "more
| freedom of speech" than the other.
|
| And at last I want to add, that that is how it's been
| historically. Sadly, the recent developments in US show
| pretty well how freedom of speech cannot be measured by
| "How many specific laws are there about things I cannot
| say?".
| rafram wrote:
| > Shouting FIRE in a full venue
|
| "Crowded theater"? In any case, yes, that's a popular
| understanding of limits on free speech in the US, but
| it's actually been superseded twice - first by "clear and
| present danger," then by "inciting or producing imminent
| lawless action." These days, it's probably (I am not a
| lawyer) legal to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater under
| many circumstances.
|
| > Sadly, the recent developments in US show pretty well
| how freedom of speech cannot be measured by "How many
| specific laws are there about things I cannot say?".
|
| There are no laws preventing you from saying anything in
| the US, unless you are specifically, directly inciting
| people, at that moment, to do things that break other
| laws. That's the point. You can't measure it in terms of
| degrees of restrictions; the US has _none_ , and all
| European countries have at least _some_. The latter
| approach opens the floodgates to restrictions on any kind
| of speech that the government doesn 't like. The US
| Constitution prevents that from ever happening.
| gzread wrote:
| > There are no laws preventing you from saying anything
| in the US, unless...
|
| Sounds like there are some of those laws. You covered
| them with "unless"
| sofixa wrote:
| > We're talking about a group of countries with active,
| enforced blasphemy laws
|
| In a very narrow interpretation, yes. Everyone with a
| modicum of common sense would realise that countries with
| laws on the books against offending religions / inciting
| hatred against them are still more free than a country
| where the fucking Bible is cited in court rulings and
| political speeches, and where there are active laws
| prohibiting non-religious people from holding office.
|
| One is for keeping the peace, the other is actively
| meddling religion and politics.
|
| > baseline level of freedom of speech
|
| Being unable to spout Nazi ideology is technically a
| restriction on freedom of speech, yes. But again, anyone
| with a modicum of common sense (and a bit of historical
| understanding) would understand this to be a _good_ thing.
| rafram wrote:
| The far right is ascendant in Europe; obviously
| restrictions on speech haven't prevented that. I am
| Jewish, I have a strong dislike of Nazis, and yet I think
| Nazis legally being able to "spout Nazi ideology" is a
| healthy thing for our society. Criminalizing speech
| doesn't stop people from holding abhorrent beliefs.
|
| This is an aspect of our country that I think most
| Americans are proud of. Some relevant reading: https://en
| .wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_Am...
| messe wrote:
| My fucking god the American exceptionalism arrogance runs
| strong.
| rafram wrote:
| It's fine if you think the American approach to free
| speech is bad - you don't have to live here - but please
| justify that rather than just name-calling.
| sofixa wrote:
| > yet I think Nazis legally being able to "spout Nazi
| ideology" is a healthy thing for our society
|
| How did that end last time? We know where it ends, we
| know there's nothing redeeming. Nobody needs Nazis, there
| is nothing to be gained by engaging with them or giving
| them a platform.
| rafram wrote:
| Weimar Germany had laws against hate speech!
| sofixa wrote:
| That they did not apply. They let a guy who _tried to
| overthrow the government_ free to run for election again.
| This kind of thing should never be allowed. Someone who
| physically demonstrates they have no business in a
| democratic society doesn 't belong in it.
| tensor wrote:
| Given the last year, it doesn't seem like any level of
| suppression of freedom is in fact unthinkable for
| Americans.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| For now - the EU is one AfD win away from following in
| America's footsteps.
| krzyk wrote:
| AfD is a party in single country in EU.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| AfD is a far right populist party in the EU's biggest
| economic powerhouse country, whose explicit goals are to
| leave the EU (they probably can't due to the German
| constitution), exit the eurozone, withdraw from the Paris
| climate deal, leave NATO, and cozy up with Russia.
|
| It's not hard to imagine what kind of damage they could
| do to the EU if they took power in Germany and started
| working with Hungary to block EU legislation, veto
| sanctions, defund programs, etc.
| tensor wrote:
| The EU governance system is vastly different than the US,
| and not nearly as fragile. Even if AfD gets sway in one
| country, it doesn't mean that suddenly they can do anything
| they want like you saw in the last US election.
|
| My understanding of the EU system is that it's far more
| proportional in representation, and a simple 51% isn't
| enough to have 100% control. Parties still need to work
| together and compromise.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| > _My understanding of the EU system is that it 's far
| more proportional in representation, and a simple 51%
| isn't enough to have 100% control. Parties still need to
| work together and compromise._
|
| We've already seen with Brexit that 100% control is not
| needed in a parliamentary system to destroy a country's
| livelihood. But my point was that AfD doesn't need
| something like "presidential control" of the EU, it would
| just need to start working with other far-right parties
| in the EU such as Hungary and France's RN to sow chaos
| from within. Is that very far-fetched? You can't tell me
| that most of Europe doesn't hold its collective breath at
| every French election, crossing their fingers that Le
| Pen's party doesn't win this go around.
| Rygian wrote:
| Valid question, which must be put in the context of US-based
| providers willingly satisfying US out-of-jurisdiction search
| requests for EU data without even letting the EU know about it.
| (And when the providers are not willing, they can be forced by
| U.S. Cloud Act)
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2025/07/22/micro...
| deaux wrote:
| This isn't a downside against EU services when compared to the
| US, so what are you actually suggesting? Don't just vaguely
| hint at stuff. Should we be moving to Singaporean services? Oh
| shit, similar concerns there. Okay, where do you suggest we
| move? If you don't have any suggestions then there's little
| substance behind what you're saying.
| _osud wrote:
| >This isn't a point against EU services compared to the US
|
| In the US the cops actually need a search warrant signed by a
| judge. In the EU they only sometimes need one.
|
| >Should we be moving to Singaporean services? Oh shit,
| similar concerns there
|
| Really? I've always been under the impression that it is
| courts who issue search warrants in Singapore, not the police
| or prosecutors.
| not_that_d wrote:
| Does ICE needs something?
| _osud wrote:
| Internal combustion engine? Hydrocarbons, I guess.
| generic92034 wrote:
| A judge of a secret court, which are known to never deny
| any request?
| _osud wrote:
| This is simply not correct. Very few "cops" in the US can
| go to any kind of secret courts.
|
| Also, what you're describing is still infinitely better
| than the European system! The cops get to issue the
| warrants themselves.
| generic92034 wrote:
| With any number of intelligence services in the USA I
| would not really be calmed by the prospect that an
| ordinary cop cannot do that.
|
| What you are claiming about European cops is also not
| uniformly true. A German police officer cannot "just"
| self-issue a search warrant.
| _osud wrote:
| >What you are claiming about European cops is also not
| uniformly true. A German police officer cannot "just"
| self-issue a search warrant.
|
| Yes. The more worrying situation is that Hungary can just
| decide that their police officers can self-issue search
| warrants, and then send those around the EU in the form
| of EIOs.
| generic92034 wrote:
| This is more of a theoretical concern, though.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| Generally comfortable.
|
| While the EIO is s controversial instrument (I particularly
| dislike the excessive power it gives to authorities in issuing
| countries and the inability to question the warrant), it at
| least is something that happens as part of a judicial process.
|
| I'm certainly more comfortable with it than being subject to
| the whims of the US government and its 3 letter agencies.
|
| That said, yeah, EIO in the shape it exists is bad.
| _osud wrote:
| >it at least is something that happens as part of a judicial
| process
|
| Only sort of, because some countries have very weird ideas of
| what a "judicial process" is.
|
| >I'm certainly more comfortable with it than being subject to
| the whims of the US government and its 3 letter agencies.
|
| That's fair, but I think it's a mistake. In the worst case
| the European system grants a village cop in another country
| the authority to conduct extremely intrusive surveillance on
| you.
|
| Criminals can easily co-opt this system and steal your crypto
| or whatever, a far more realistic threat for most people than
| the NSA.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| > That's fair, but I think it's a mistake
|
| I obviously don't share the sentiment.
|
| > village cop in another country the authority to conduct
| extremely intrusive surveillance on you.
|
| > far more realistic threat for most people than the NSA.
|
| If you think some policeman in a rural Frech village is a
| bigger threat to your freedom than NSA or other 3-letter
| agencies from the USA, we can all see who is mistaken in
| evaluating threats.
|
| > Criminals can easily co-opt this system and steal your
| crypto or whatever
|
| I don't want to say anything, I just wanted to highlight
| this bit because it made me giggle.
| _osud wrote:
| >If you think some policeman in a rural Frech village is
| a bigger threat to your freedom than NSA or other
| 3-letter agencies from the USA, we can all see who is
| mistaken in evaluating threats.
|
| Just like the random mugger on the streets of Paris is a
| far bigger threat to my life and limb than the US with
| their drones.
|
| You're talking from an ideological perspective, I'm
| looking at this from a rather more practical angle. It's
| very possible that your line of thinking leads to a
| better outcome than mine, or perhaps it doesn't.
|
| >I don't want to say anything, I just wanted to highlight
| this bit because it made me giggle.
|
| It's really not that funny, cryptocurrency thieves have
| been bribing cops to rob people at gunpoint
| https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/09/crooked-cops-stolen-
| lapt...
|
| Now you can bribe a village cop in Hungary or Romania,
| and have the French cops do your bidding. This is totally
| gonna end well!
| surgical_fire wrote:
| > You're talking from an ideological perspective
|
| Given your participation in this whole discussion, that
| was pretty cute.
|
| There nothing else here even worth addressing. This
| conversation is a waste of time, for both of us.
|
| Have a wonderful rest of your day.
| _osud wrote:
| Having been personally touched by this, I see this as an
| entirely practical and not ideological issue.
|
| It's harder for me to worry about the NSA than people who
| have already negatively impacted me in the past.
| throw0101c wrote:
| > _How comfortable are you guys with the fact that EU countries
| allow prosecutors and sometimes even police officers to issue
| their own search warrants without meaningful judicial review?_
|
| (IANAL.) This was reviewed by the courts themselves:
|
| > _The CJEU confirmed that the Belgian, French and Swedish
| prosecutors were sufficiently independent from the executive to
| be able to issue EAWs._ [...]
|
| > [...] _Public prosecutors will qualify as an issuing judicial
| authority where two conditions are met:_ [...]
|
| > _2. Second, public prosecutors must be in a position to act
| in an independent way, specifically with respect to the
| executive. The CJEU requires that the independence of public
| prosecutors be organised by a statutory framework and
| organisational rules that prevent the risk of prosecutors being
| subject to individual instructions by the executive (as was the
| case with the German prosecutor). Moreover, the framework must
| enable prosecutors to assess the necessity and proportionality
| of issuing an EAW. In the French prosecutor judgment, the CJEU
| specifically indicated that:_
|
| * https://www.fairtrials.org/articles/legal-analysis/can-
| belgi...
|
| The question that the OP asks is fair enough, but there's a lot
| of subtly and 'low-level' details on how things operate
| compared to the high-level question that is being asked. Also
| depends on where the OP lives and what he's used to: common law
| (UK/US/CA/ _etc_ ) and civil law procedures and laws are (AIUI)
| quite different.
| Aerroon wrote:
| For anyone wondering:
|
| EAW = European Arrest Warrant
|
| EIO = European Investigative Order (basically lets different
| jurisdictions demand information from each other)
|
| CJEU = Court of Justice of the EU (think of it as a supreme
| court)
| stanac wrote:
| Also IANAL: I Am Not A Lawyer. If you really want to guard
| yourself from a legal standpoint, write the full sentence.
| "IANAL" could mean anything.
|
| That being said, I am not a lawyer, I am not a legal
| professional, this is not a legal advice.
| mongol wrote:
| Sweden is a country like this. It is just the way it is here.
| It can be abused, sure. But all things considered, I much
| rather have my things hosted here than in the US.
| _osud wrote:
| Yeah, but you also have Hungary who can decide to do things
| the same way they're done in Sweden and Finland.
| mongol wrote:
| In Hungary, sure. But each country has its own
| jurisdiction.
| _osud wrote:
| Yeah, way to not read the thread.
|
| I'll repeat: EIO
| mongol wrote:
| So what? Can you point to a real example where this has
| been abused or are we discussing hypotheticals?
| _osud wrote:
| You can look at past ECHR decisions for countless cases
| of abuse by various national governments.
|
| You can look at the history of EAW related litigation
| also, it'll probably prove most informative. Executing
| states used to constantly deny requests due to judicial
| review, rules were clarified to remove the possibility of
| judicial review by executing states.
| mongol wrote:
| I was expecting you might have a relevant example that
| applies to this discussion.
| _osud wrote:
| Writing "EAW abuse" into google finds endless lawyer
| marketing posts. The facts of the first one I clicked on
| sound pretty bad!
|
| https://greatjames.co.uk/martin-henley-secures-the-
| dismissal...
| microtonal wrote:
| So don't host your stuff in Hungary?
| icoder wrote:
| Yeah I think this basically answers this entire sub-
| thread
| _osud wrote:
| Hungary can send an EIO to France or Germany, and the
| consistent trend has been to reduce the ability of
| executing states to review these requests.
| foldr wrote:
| There's a concerning trend of EIOs issued by Hungary
| being enforced in France and Germany? What would be an
| example of this?
| _osud wrote:
| This is the best I can give you off the top of my head,
| but look at which countries are the most active in
| eurojust :) https://www.eurojust.europa.eu/ar2020/data-
| annex
|
| An LLM can probably find some better links though.
| foldr wrote:
| I think you might be missing the 'concerning' part. Which
| specific cases are concerning? I don't find it inherently
| concerning that people can't escape justice by crossing
| the Hungarian border, Bonnie and Clyde style.
| _osud wrote:
| Oh no, that's totally up to you. If you're happy with the
| courts in your country not being able to review the
| requests sent from Hungary, that's cool. Without
| transparent judicial review, how could we even know if
| the cases are concerning?
| foldr wrote:
| EIOs are subject to review by the recipient state. It
| seems that you can't point to a single relevant example
| of a concerning EIO from Hungary.
| _osud wrote:
| "Subject to review" means little more than "is the form
| filled correctly?", it certainly does not mean second-
| guessing by the courts in the executing state.
|
| Like, yeah, your EIO will be rejected if you don't tick
| any of the crime-category boxes in the form.
| ApolloFortyNine wrote:
| Too explicitly spell it out, op is saying here that if
| any one of the 27 countries in the EU decides you are
| breaking one of their laws, they can have 1 of the other
| 26 enforce an EIO.
| _osud wrote:
| Which would be perfectly fine _if_ your local
| jurisdiction could still properly review those foreign
| requests.
| foldr wrote:
| EIOs are subject to a dual criminality requirement. So
| it's not as if arbitrary Hungarian laws can be applied in
| France via EIOs. And of course, we all know this is not
| happening, which is why we get radio silence from the
| people who are 'concerned' about this whenever specifics
| are requested.
| _osud wrote:
| >EIOs are subject to a dual criminality requirement
|
| Dual criminality requirement only applies to non-Annex D
| crimes. Which is... not many crimes. You seem awfully
| confident for someone so ill-informed.
|
| >And of course, we all know this is not happening
|
| How would you know that it isn't happening? EIOs are not
| public!
| foldr wrote:
| Annex D is a list of things that are crimes pretty much
| everywhere.
|
| Not sure what to make of the claim that Hungary might
| theoretically be enforcing Hungarian law in France. It
| seems surprising that no-one has noticed any specific
| consequences of this that you can point to.
|
| The EIO is mostly just a formalization and
| standardization of a bunch of ad-hoc processes that were
| already in place. Law enforcement agencies in different
| European countries do try to assist each other, on the
| whole.
| _osud wrote:
| What you're missing is the erosion of the ability of the
| executing states to say things like "hey this is sketchy,
| we think this crime might not have happened", "hey the
| police department in this particular city is notoriously
| untrustworthy", or "hey this prosecutor is widely known
| in the local press to be corrupt and owns a collection of
| ferraris".
|
| Now foreign authorities are trusted by default and
| significant parts of their reasoning are not subject to
| review, that's bad.
| foldr wrote:
| So provide some concrete examples of what you're talking
| about, if it's a real concern.
| krzyk wrote:
| Sure, those EIO will be held if Hungary starts applying
| EIO that it got (e.g. for former Ministry of Justice of
| Poland which awaits trail, he sits comfortably in
| Hungary).
|
| Let's hope elections there will change Orban into
| something saner.
| bean469 wrote:
| > How comfortable are you guys with the fact that EU countries
| allow prosecutors and sometimes even police officers to issue
| their own search warrants without meaningful judicial review?
|
| Just to be clear, according to the DOJ, law enforcement
| officials in the US can search your home without a warrant if
| they suspect that you are a "Alien Enemy" [1].
|
| https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25915967-doj-march-1...
| kvuj wrote:
| Wouldn't source that this is happening in 1 of the member
| states be enough to raise alarms? Why do all of them need to
| for you to consider this an issue?
| squarefoot wrote:
| Don't forget civil forfeiture, which can (an does) happen
| whether they think you're an enemy or not.
|
| https://ij.org/issues/private-property/civil-
| forfeiture/freq...
| pjc50 wrote:
| How much is this a practical rather than theoretical problem?
|
| One of the problems with being on the US Internet is that we
| get lots of coverage of US police overreach and much less
| coverage of EU police overreach. That could have one of three
| causes:
|
| - actual incidence is low
|
| - it's not being reported
|
| - it is being reported, but doesn't generate discourse
|
| (And the counter option: sometimes when you do hear about it,
| it's been laundered through weird US right-wing politics, like
| almost anything anyone says about Sweden)
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > That could have one of three causes:
|
| > - actual incidence is low
|
| > - it's not being reported
|
| > - it is being reported, but doesn't generate discourse
|
| Fourth possible cause:
|
| - the EU has 24 official languages
|
| i.e. when it is reported, the number of people who are
| actually capable of understanding the reporting is only a
| fraction and rather localized.
| megous wrote:
| Well https://www.devever.net/~hl/xmpp-incident
|
| It's a problem. But it has technical rather than political
| solutions.
| s_dev wrote:
| >How comfortable are you guys with the fact that EU countries
| allow prosecutors and sometimes even police officers to issue
| their own search warrants without meaningful judicial review?
|
| This is a hilarious 'just asking questions' concern that
| doesn't address the complete 180 in direction the US is taking
| and descending in to authoritarianism while moving against the
| world order it primarily helped build post WWII while
| threatening other liberal democracies like Canada and Denmark
| with invasions.
|
| It's a complete false equivalence. ICE agents have straight up
| murdered two US citizens in broad daylight without consequence
| and you're querying the nature of some search warrants in the
| EU.
| _osud wrote:
| I'm not advertising the US here or trying to troll. I'm an
| European pointing out things about the European system that
| many here will not have thought about.
|
| >It's a complete false equivalence. ICE agents have straight
| up murdered two US citizens in broad daylight without
| consequence and you're querying the nature of some search
| warrants in the EU.
|
| Maybe keep your US nonsense to yourself?
| hvb2 wrote:
| Just saying, the vast majority of services people are
| moving from would be US based given it is where all of big
| tech comes from. So comparing it to the US is relevant?
|
| If you're trying to say the eu isn't a saint either, sure.
| _osud wrote:
| >If you're trying to say the eu isn't a saint either,
| sure.
|
| I'm not trying to say _anything_ about anyone else
| besides the EU. Therefore I 'm certainly not trying to
| compare EU to anyone else.
|
| I am an European pointing out issues with the local
| system, issues that many commenters here clearly aren't
| aware of given how many replies seem to think that
| they'll be just fine as long as they don't host in
| Hungary.
| y-curious wrote:
| I'm in the US and generally pretty level-headed. Nothing
| makes me become a red-blooded patriot nationalist
| temporarily faster than seeing Europeans completely ignore
| the similarities in our political ills. It always boils
| down to, "but it's the good kind of authoritarianism we
| have that preserves social order!!!" as if that has never
| failed to produce desired results. Thanks for being much
| more rational. We have a concerning political trend here in
| the US, it can't be denied, but the EU is following in
| step.
| _osud wrote:
| Yeah, it's really bizarre how this has to be turned into
| a competition. We have stupid problems in the EU that
| don't exist in the US and vice-versa.
|
| The way this particular part of our system works is
| downright horrifying, but it's exotic enough that very
| few people (even lawyers) will be familiar with it.
| icfly2 wrote:
| Sorry what? While there are right wing idiots in various
| governments in the EU, the Trump admin is on a completely
| different level. Also the bosses of big tech are
| clamouring over each other to s** him off.
|
| I'm not particularly patriotic or bothered about nations
| in general, but the yanks can go take a hike.
| dwedge wrote:
| Man this whole article and your comment just makes me
| picture that meme with the fat guy open-mouth drinking
| from a pipe labelled "media".
|
| By the way, sex him off? Trying to decipher the number of
| characters
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > the complete 180 in direction the US is taking and
| descending in to authoritarianism
|
| A similar (though currently a little bit less marked) trend
| can also be observed for the EU and EU countries.
| s_dev wrote:
| >(though currently a little bit less marked)
|
| Again this is a false equivalence, 'a little less marked'
| isn't close to imparting the true state of things and to be
| honest a little disingenuous.
|
| The EU is not in full motion to dismantle democracy across
| her 27 states. The US should it not turn this around in the
| midterms is finished as a liberal democracy.
|
| So 'ah yes but Hungary' doesn't persuade me even though
| I'll concede it's a problem for the EU. If Tisza is elected
| in April, Hungary will be on course to turn things around.
| So you're comparing 1 out of 27 to 50 out of 50 states.
| sunaookami wrote:
| >The EU is not in full motion to dismantle democracy
| across her 27 states
|
| But it is? They forced Romania to do a re-election
| because they didn't like the candidate. And they still
| try to force Chat Control, try to bypass the unanimity
| rule and the EU commission gives itself more powers every
| day with authoritian laws like the DSA. As a European, I
| don't get the USA's EU-fetish. It's not better here than
| in the US.
| krzyk wrote:
| EU did not force Romania. Romania itself annulled them
| because Russian intervention happened.
| sunaookami wrote:
| Sure that happened :)
| telmo wrote:
| Yes, it sure did. Read my comment on your original post.
| telmo wrote:
| What actually happened was that former EU Commissioner
| Thierry Breton publicly stated on French TV in January
| 2025 that if the AfD won in Germany, elections there
| could also be annulled by the EU "as was done in
| Romania". That was a stupid thing for him to say, but he
| is a private citizen, he did not represent the EU in any
| capacity, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the EU
| pressured Romania. Of course, post-truth political
| movements run with a distorted version of this story to
| play the victim.
|
| Romania's Supreme Court decision was based mainly on
| illegal campaign financing. The Constitutional Court
| noted that Georgescu had officially reported zero
| campaign expenditures, yet had an enormous social media
| presence. His TikTok account had over 646K followers and
| 7.2M likes. This was in the context of interconnected
| declassified intelligence. Around 25000 pro-Georgescu
| TikTok accounts became highly active in the two weeks
| before the first-round vote, with nearly 800 accounts
| created in 2016 that had remained dormant until the
| election. Activity was coordinated through a Telegram
| channel. Romania's intelligence service said there were
| signs of state-sponsored attacks operating in a hybrid
| manner, targeting critical infrastructure and shaping
| public opinion through misinformation. The campaign was
| said to mirror influence operations conducted by Moscow
| during elections in Ukraine and Moldova.
|
| Romanian prosecutors later charged Georgescu with
| involvement behind cyberattacks targeting Romanian
| electoral systems.
|
| Russia has been systematically attempting to interfere
| with EU elections, and anyone who argues otherwise in the
| face of mountains of evidence is either being naive or
| disingenuous. Post-truth political parties such as the
| AfD are funded and supported by the Kremlin, which is
| interested in sowing division and wished the collapse of
| the EU for a long time. Unfortunately, the current US
| administration is also ideologically aligned with the
| Kremlin and also wishes the collapse of the EU, as is
| explicitally stated in the recent strategic document
| published by the Trump administration. These are the
| actual facts, that are easy to verify if you are actually
| interested in the truth.
| sunaookami wrote:
| Yes it's always the evil Russians and the stupid people
| are influenced by TikTok so we need to tell them what
| they should vote!
|
| From e.g. Wikipedia:
|
| >At the time of his exclusion, Georgescu was leading in
| public opinion polls
|
| D'oh!
|
| >That was a stupid thing for him to say, but he is a
| private citizen
|
| How convenient he got fired, everything is good now,
| surely the Commission does not hold the same views as
| him! Are you really this naive?
|
| And don't get me wrong, I support neither Georgescu (a
| typical conspiracy theorist nut) nor AfD (who only argue
| that the evil immigrants are at fault). But I support a
| free and democratic process and these are no longer in
| place. If you ban leading candidates and try to ban
| political parties that are in the lead (AfD and CDU
| constantly switch #1 positions in polls by 1-2
| percentagep points) just because they are not on "your
| side" you are not better than any country that you mark
| as authoritian.
| exceptione wrote:
| Hitler and his cronies were so surprised that the system
| he had vowed to destroy let him in. > And
| don't get me wrong, I support neither
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
|
| It is not about who you support and what your favorite
| color is.
| sunaookami wrote:
| And there is the Hitler argument!
| Aurornis wrote:
| > The US should it not turn this around in the midterms
| is finished as a liberal democracy.
|
| I wish there was an easy way for me to bet against the
| imminent fall of the United States as predicted by so
| many internet commenters. I don't like what the current
| administration is doing, either, but I would readily bet
| against all of these "the end is just around the corner"
| or "the empire is dying" takes in a heartbeat.
| s_dev wrote:
| I didn't say the US is finished, I said it was finished
| as a liberal democracy.
|
| It's already slid in to 'electoral democracy' instead of
| 'liberal democracy' the difference between the two is how
| 'rule of law' is prioritised and the balance between
| checks and balances between institutions is enforced.
|
| https://www.v-dem.net/documents/60/V-dem-
| dr__2025_lowres.pdf
| colin_jack wrote:
| Not quibbling but to be fair that report shows problems
| in Europe too, not the same speed of change, and its a
| different situation, but if you care about democracy its
| not great.
| Maxion wrote:
| AFAIK there's no murdering of citizens going on in any EU
| member country by the same countries government at the
| moment.
| krzyk wrote:
| Trends are various. You had Poland remove rightwing
| goverment 2 years ago (yes and elect righwing president few
| months ago). Romania electing a European centric president.
|
| We can go on. EU is not a single country, not a single
| community of people.
| copper4eva wrote:
| His comment did not even mention the US. Only critiquing the
| authoritarianism going on in the EU. One of the issues with
| modern politics is everyone wants to deflect.
| wongarsu wrote:
| I need to host my emails somewhere. This means that you
| can't reject the EU in isolation, you have to compare it to
| the alternatives. And the most prevalent alternative is the
| US
|
| Now of course if somebody has a better alternative that's
| neither in the EU nor US (nor Russia, or China) that'd be
| interesting to hear about
| rglullis wrote:
| Switzerland, maybe? I've been a happy migadu.com customer
| for years already.
| gusgus01 wrote:
| Funny enough, they mention moving to ProtonMail which is
| at least based out of Switzerland. It makes this whole
| chain a bit funny, but I don't blame the commenter for
| not breaking down every service the OP talked about and
| the OP did shorthand it to "Migrating to the EU", so fair
| enough.
| mariusor wrote:
| Didn't proton fold like a wet napkin when they were asked
| for information about their users? What I mean is:
| Switzerland as a whole is probably the wrong metric...
| AdamN wrote:
| These are also political decisions and the EU is much
| more powerful politically than Switzerland so if your
| adversary is the US and they're willing to use lawfare or
| more than you should probably go with the EU and not
| Switzerland. Germany is considered one of the most robust
| legal systems for privacy.
|
| But there is always risk no matter what you do.
| littlecranky67 wrote:
| Switzerland - as well as EU based providers - have to
| comply with court orders. And the EU as well as
| Switzerland issue court orders upon request from friendly
| foreign states ("Rechtshilfeersuchen" in german) - such
| as the US.
| mariusor wrote:
| Wasn't Proton launched as a "your data is encrypted at
| rest, we could never access it without your consent"? The
| implication being that even if they received said court
| orders, they didn't have anything to give. Am I
| misremembering that?
| KAMSPioneer wrote:
| They encrypt your data insofar as your email, files, etc.
| but that doesn't mean they don't have information
| potentially useful to the authorities. See the recent
| headline where they revealed a user's payment information
| allowing them to be identified.
| tamimio wrote:
| Servers of migadu are in france actually
| dwedge wrote:
| Anywhere you can rent a VPS or dedicated server, install
| exim or mox or mailcow. Configure dns correctly and
| you're good to go
| butILoveLife wrote:
| Do any of your emails actually make it into an inbox
| though? I did this for a server and I couldn't even get
| it to land in spam on gmail.
| gadrev wrote:
| Yes but you may need the IPs to warm up and build some
| reputation, depending where you setup your server the IPs
| may be burned. Check logs and reputation with some of the
| postmaster tools the major providers offer and with the
| services that allow looking up an IP. senderscore used to
| be convenient to use now it displays a stupid contact
| form when you try to check an IP, there are others.
|
| To be honest I haven't done the setup for sending a
| handful of emails but IPs sending hundreds/thousands per
| day it's fine as long as you don't start spamming people
| and get flagged.
| dwedge wrote:
| Yes they do. I wouldn't try it from a residential IP but
| as long as you run a blacklist check on the IP before you
| start, and configure DNS correctly, it's generally fine.
| elAhmo wrote:
| In email world, this is as far from 'good to go' as you
| can get. Good luck getting anyone to read your emails
| this way.
| dwedge wrote:
| Do you run your email server? I run two, have next to no
| problems (the key is in setting up DNS correctly, as I
| mentioned) and keep getting told this by people who have
| never tried.
| wwweston wrote:
| More elaboration on what's involved in "correctly" would
| probably drive the point home -- "this works because" vs
| "works for me."
| dwedge wrote:
| I made sure to include the word correctly in the reply.
| Mox mailserver tells you exactly what to do. I think
| mailcow does as well. A lot of people don't do it and
| then tell others that selfhosting email with good
| deliverability is impossible. You set it up once and
| you're good to go
| surgical_fire wrote:
| The comment does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in a
| thread where the topic is, eminently, migrating away from
| US services to EU ones.
| _osud wrote:
| >The comment does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in a
| thread where the topic is, eminently, migrating away from
| US services to EU ones.
|
| Even then, there's no interesting conversation to be had
| unless we pretend it does.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| I, and apparently many others in this thread, disagree.
|
| I personally found some interesting comments here,
| including but not limited to services based off EU that I
| can use.
|
| If you find it uninteresting, you should stop wasting
| your time in it and go do something more productive with
| your time.
|
| Unless, of course, you just want to do some "concern
| trolling". You know, the "just asking questions" and
| "just noticing" behavior.
|
| I'll be charitable and presume you are talking in this
| thread accidentally, and will find your way to more
| productive activities instead.
| krzyk wrote:
| > critiquing the authoritarianism going on in the EU
|
| What?
| andix wrote:
| It's happening in the EU too, just not at such a fast
| pace than in other regions. And it's still far away from
| authoritarianism.
|
| Currently it's just smaller pieces and no bigger agenda
| is visible (or even exiting). But there are constantly
| new regulations that would make an authoritarian coup
| (like currently in the US) easier.
| ahtihn wrote:
| The post is about moving stuff from US to EU, so it's not
| like the US is brought up out of nowhere.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| > _the complete 180 in direction the US is taking and
| descending in to authoritarianism while moving against the
| world order_
|
| The EU is just one AfD win away from doing the same thing.
| It's not immune to this issue either, you have the same
| problem happening right under your noses.
| epolanski wrote:
| Not really.
|
| Most European countries have parliamentary democracies.
|
| It's not a winner-takes-all system ala presidential and
| semi-presidential republics where effectively individuals:
|
| 1. rule without opposition. There's no opposition it's not
| represented in that branch.
|
| 2. rule without even needing support of their own parties.
| The Italian prime minister or the German chancellor have to
| fight every day in parliament to have support of their
| parties and the other parties coalitions.
|
| 3. a single _individual_ can claim popular mandate. In
| parliamentary systems you vote for parties /coalitions, not
| individuals
|
| There's a reason why this authoritarian trend goes from the
| Philippines, Nicaragua, to Belarus, to Turkey, to Russia,
| to most African countries and now US. They are all
| presidential republics.
|
| The last parliamentary democracy to turn authoritarian has
| been...Sri Lanka. Almost 50 years ago. Presidential ones?
| It's basically every year.
|
| Systems with winner-takes-all mechanics do not represent
| voters, and power is too concentrated.
|
| Parliamentary democracies might be labeled as less
| efficient, that I can agree, but they have strong
| antibodies to such people.
|
| See Austria or the Netherlands as examples where strong far
| right authoritarian-wannabes individuals became prime
| ministers...and then nothing happened and their governments
| didn't last.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| I agree that presidential systems in particular are
| problematic, and the EU is lucky that Germany and France
| use parliamentary systems. But the nasty thing about
| populism is that it happens in waves and it _does_
| overtake parliaments. We need only look at what happened
| to the UK with Brexit for a recent example. It 's not
| hard to imagine that a wave of far-right populism could
| one day overtake Germany, or send France's RN, Austria's
| FPO or Poland's PIS to a majority position.
|
| We can cross our fingers and hope that nobody would work
| with them (I know that Germany's parties all have a pinky
| promise not to work with AfD), but it was only 10 years
| ago that everyone in the US was laughing at the prospect
| of a Donald Trump presidency - and now here we are, much
| sobered. These things happen, and AfD, or RN, or whoever,
| could wreak havoc to the EU from within the EU if they
| took power and started working with Hungary to block EU
| legislation, veto sanctions, defund programs and more.
| epolanski wrote:
| Well nobody has figured out the perfect political system
| yet.
|
| Except the Swiss.
| noobermin wrote:
| Europeans are so blind to how they are essentially on the
| same path as the US, the US just got there first.
| messe wrote:
| While there is a trend toward the right in many (not all)
| EU countries, it's a far cry from the shit show on the
| other side of the Atlantic.
| sofixa wrote:
| Most European countries have functioning legal and
| electoral systems, and more than two parties. On top of
| that, constitutional courts aren't political
| appointments.
|
| So it would be incredibly hard for a political entity
| like AfD or RN to gain full and absolute power like the
| orange has achieved. Even in the worst cases, those
| parties usually only have ~30% popular support at most,
| which usually translates to at most ~30-40% of seats in
| parliament. Which means they cannot even get
| parliamentary majority, and probably can't get head of
| state either.
|
| Americans just like to pretend things aren't that bad and
| they aren't the only ones falling into the abyss.
| u8080 wrote:
| Could you explain to me (non-US and non-EU resident), how
| people in EU are okay with mandatory photo scanning on
| your devices(aka CSAM protection)?
|
| Who does this weird proposals like Chat Control?
|
| AFAIK, it is not "alt-right" parties - so it really does
| not clicking for me, why AfD and others constantly
| brought in during online privacy discussions?
| messe wrote:
| Can you remind me when those actually passed? I can pull
| equally up equally ridiculous bills from the US that
| never came to fruition.
| u8080 wrote:
| I am not saying passing, but seems there is a large group
| of politicians(supposedly backed by voters?) who lobby
| such initiatives who are not some alt-right fascist
| outliers?
|
| (I am not from US, please keep that strawman out)
| nozzlegear wrote:
| I'm not pretending things aren't bad, I'm pointing out
| that things could be bad for you as well. America had
| functioning legal and electoral systems too, and we only
| need to look at Brexit for a shining example of how
| parliamentary systems can also fail to resist a populist
| wave. By refusing to acknowledge that, you look no wiser
| than the Americans who were laughing at the idea of a
| Donald Trump presidency just ten years ago.
| gzread wrote:
| Isn't AfD winning 20% of the vote and increasing, and it
| already has won some states?
| exceptione wrote:
| Not every European country, but unfortunately many
| countries are at risk. Someone like Orban is so deeply
| and openly corrupt, you have to wonder why anyone besides
| his cronies vote for him. But as an autocrat, you
| apparently only have to chase lgbti people and immigrants
| to cheer people up. Going to CPAC with all your kinky
| friends doing the Sieg Heils on stage (yes, that
| happened, even if someone doesn't want to hear that).
| Conservatism is a depressing view of the world.
|
| And then you have all kinds of charlatans that are
| basically Orban doubles. You hear the same stupid talking
| points and bullshit, the same cozying up with Putin. And
| to top it off, the USA has openly vowed to fuel and fund
| that fire of self destruction, so the billionaires can
| eat the corpse. Because that is where the term
| conservatism came from, to conserve the power of the king
| and the ruling elites, as a god given construct (the only
| original moral aspect of conservatism).
| dbvn wrote:
| Lol what does ICE have to do with a local police officer
| being able to bully a tech worker into providing your private
| communications?
| WhrRTheBaboons wrote:
| what example are you talking about? assuming it's non-UK
| would like to read about it.
| thesmtsolver2 wrote:
| The US is sliding to a place that many EU countries are
| happily occupying and pontificating from
|
| https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/07/06/since-20.
| ..
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc.
| ..
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/nov/17/refugees-
| jew...
| panda-giddiness wrote:
| What a disingenuous comparison. The wiki article you've
| linked ("List of killings by law enforcement officers in
| Germany") sums to 552 people over the last 100 years. In
| contrast, the corresponding wiki article on the US ("Lists
| of killings by law enforcement officers in the United
| States" [1]) estimates more than 900 deaths per year.
| Indeed, the number of slayings is so great that the article
| does not tabulate the sum in a single table (as the German
| article does) but instead links to separate wiki articles
| with tabulated results _by month_.
|
| ---
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_killings_by_law_
| enfor...
| _osud wrote:
| >The wiki article you've linked ("List of killings by law
| enforcement officers in Germany") sums to 552 people over
| the last 100 years
|
| I think we can probably agree that this number is not
| very accurate.
| panda-giddiness wrote:
| Over the last 100 years, almost certainly not. For the
| most recent decade? Yes, of course I would expect these
| statistics to be fairly accurate.
|
| Between 2021 and 2025 (inclusive), Wikipedia lists 68
| dead in Germany versus 5882 dead in the US, despite the
| US only being ~4 times larger. More people have been
| killed by police in the US this year than in Germany in
| the past ten years, and it's not even April yet.
| thesmtsolver2 wrote:
| > 552 people over the last 100 years
|
| What a disingenuous comment. Do we really think that is
| the case?
|
| You ignored my other link. Imagine the outrage EU would
| have had if US seized immigrants jewelry. Yet, Denmark
| gleefully does that.
|
| Funnily, I had friends from Europe participate in the No
| Kings protest here, while coming from countries that have
| literal kings.
| bigfudge wrote:
| > Funnily, I had friends from Europe participate in the
| No Kings protest here, while coming from countries that
| have literal kings.
|
| This is either disingenuous or misunderstands the nature
| of European constitutional monarchies.
| messe wrote:
| Don't discount that it could be both. It's still early in
| some parts of the US, they might not have had their
| coffee yet.
| sofixa wrote:
| > Imagine the outrage EU would have had if US seized
| immigrants jewelry
|
| The US literally deports people to concentration camps in
| countries with no civil liberties. Many have disappeared
| there. A whole other group have been raped and become
| pregnant and are being moved around to force births.
|
| And you are concerned about fucking _jewelry_. Genuinely,
| are you taking a piss here?
| panda-giddiness wrote:
| It's your source, not mine; if you have a better one,
| post it. I won't do your own research for you.
| claytongulick wrote:
| Per capita vs absolute numbers seems particularly
| relevant here.
|
| There are four times as many people in the US.
|
| Germany has four cities with around a million people.
|
| The U.S. has at least 15.
|
| Also, absolute numbers don't reflect justified shootings,
| which is an entirely different and much more nuanced
| conversation.
|
| No part of this should be taken to mean that I don't
| think there's a problem in the US, I just object to
| complex issues being overly simplified.
| panda-giddiness wrote:
| Per capita vs absolute numbers are not especially
| relevant in this case. The figures differ by orders of
| magnitude.
| nottorp wrote:
| US legal protections do not apply to EU citizens keeping their
| data in the US, do they?
|
| So what's the point of this comparison, since if I host my data
| in the US they don't need a warrant at all?
| PeterStuer wrote:
| The geo-location of where you keep your data is irrelevant to
| US legal reach.
| paganel wrote:
| They don't, they don't even apply to EU citizens keeping
| their (our, in fact) data on our (EU's servers) if what we're
| doing happens to cross some interests of the US Government. I
| mean, there are some legal "protections" in place for that,
| but notice the quotes. Thinking otherwise is delusional, but,
| hey, people should be allowed to enjoy the liberty of their
| slightly larger iron bird-cage.
| shevy-java wrote:
| > you might be in a reasonable EU country and still be hit with
| an EIO from one of the unreasonable countries.
|
| Are you certain this has happened? I never heard that happen in
| central Europe. I am pretty certain legislation of other
| countries is irrelevant, unless it would be an EU regulation -
| and I am unaware of an EU regulation that could bypass local
| laws and that has not been made a EU law. Which EU law
| specifically do you refer to?
| _osud wrote:
| https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-
| content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
| dangus wrote:
| Maybe the motivation is more to stop giving American big tech
| MAGA fascists money rather than any kind of gain in
| privacy/security against state level law enforcement.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| > What Is An Administrative Warrant?
|
| > An administrative warrant is a legal document issued by a
| government agency, rather than a court, that authorizes the
| agency to take specific actions such as conducting inspections,
| searches, or seizing property. Unlike judicial warrants,
| administrative warrants are frequently issued on less than
| probable cause of a crime.
|
| > Administrative warrants are typically used for regulatory or
| civil enforcement purposes and allow agencies to enforce rules
| and regulations within their jurisdiction, such as health
| inspections, building code enforcement, or immigration-related
| actions.
|
| > The problem with administrative warrants is that they make
| the agency both the prosecutor and the judge in the very same
| matter. The entire point of having agencies go to court for a
| warrant is because courts are an independent branch with an
| independent mission. Rather than solely focusing on identifying
| and prosecuting violations of law, courts seek to check agency
| errors and overreach. When the very same agency that wants to
| execute a warrant is the one deciding whether it issues, those
| checks disappear, and Americans' security pays the price.
|
| https://ij.org/issues/ijs-project-on-the-4th-amendment/admin...
| watwut wrote:
| > Some EU courts will not exclude illegally obtained evidence
| either, so challenging the warrant later on will be pointless.
|
| Generally speaking, I trust EU countries criminal systems more
| then USA one. USA one is too procedure oriented - like for
| example with this rule.
|
| Unlike in USA, in general European cops and prosecutors can be
| punished when they do illegal stuff. That provides better
| protection then the pretend fairness rule you just cited.
| _osud wrote:
| >Generally speaking, I trust EU countries criminal systems
| more then USA one. USA one is too procedure oriented - like
| for example with this rule.
|
| Those procedures are written in blood
| watwut wrote:
| They are not and also dont do much to protect you.
| Untouchable cops due to qualified immunity and presumption
| of reguparity and simple fact that there is no remedy if
| they break your rights make this entirely moot.
|
| Just now, like today, a decision was made that cops who
| literally made up a gang to go after innocent people ...
| wont be investigated.
|
| Pretending you found proofs legally when you did not is
| easy. Especially when you are untouchable. And the rule
| does absolutely nothing to protect innocent people. It is
| just trying to make up for one injustice by creating
| another smaller one.
| FabCH wrote:
| You are technically correct but seem to be applying common law
| standards to civil law countries.
|
| Unlike common law judiciary, civil law judiciary in and of
| itself has investigatory powers and judges don't just hear
| arguments but can order their own investigations and are
| significantly more independent than in common law.
|
| This can cut both ways, yes in theory the judge can accept
| evidence the prosecution obtained illegally, but the judges can
| also call the prosecutions bluff and call their own witnesses
| or order an independent expert to provide their own opinion,
| even if defense is unable to.
| _osud wrote:
| You forgot about the Nordic countries.
| FabCH wrote:
| Scandinavian law is commonly considered to be a subcategory
| of civil law. Judges in Scandinavia have investigative
| powers and can judge the truth of the matter.
| zulban wrote:
| Not comfortable. But making choices in the real world is about
| choosing the best option, not the perfect option.
| PurpleRamen wrote:
| As long as you stay away from questionable behaviour, there is
| very little chance to encounter the police in the EU or having
| problems with your privacy. USA is different in that regard.
| Your existence can be a problem. Or monetary interests will
| risk your privacy to whoever wants to make money with you.
|
| EU is not perfect, but saver than the USA in those matters (if
| you want to only invest a reasonable amount of effort and
| money), which is kinda the point here, isn't it?
| _osud wrote:
| EU is not a single uniform blob. There are neighbourhoods
| where you have to worry about being shot, and there are
| neighbourhoods where people leave their keys inside their
| cars.
|
| So, with the police? YMMV.
| PurpleRamen wrote:
| Obviously, but we are talking about online-activity here,
| not randomly walking the streets. The normal sketchy cop on
| the streets will not be accessing your mailbox just because
| they don't like your skin. Attending certain events would
| trigger this more likely, but then you should also know how
| to protect yourself in those cases.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Without disagreeing at all, can you think of a major
| jurisdiction that's better? US I basically assume everything is
| searchable without a warrant, if not leaked on a ex-DOGE intern
| USB stick.
|
| Who else is there with a major infra ecosystem? Russia? China?
| UK? Not sure these are better than EU. Japan seems quite inward
| looking.
| danilocesar wrote:
| Whataboutyism much?
| kgwxd wrote:
| Sounds terrible. Guess we should all just accept the worst of
| the worst and shut up?
| mafuy wrote:
| This account is sockpuppeting. They are not participating on
| this site in good faith.
| victorbjorklund wrote:
| Do you seriously think that US requires warrants from US judges
| to spy on non-citizens abroad? That is 100% false. There is
| zero protection from the US govt for non-citizens living
| abroad.
| XCSme wrote:
| How comfortable are you guys with the fact the US has just
| partnered with OpenAI to enable mass surveillance?
| NoLinkToMe wrote:
| I'd say don't let perfect be the enemy of good/better. Moving
| from US to EU is a move for the better. But EU isn't perfect,
| and there might be even better options available, but unless
| you have them, I'd recommend starting with the move to EU.
| tamimio wrote:
| It's why I don't trust anyone. Sure, EU has better policies and
| regulations than the wild west (US/Canada), but they still can
| and will do monkey business when needed, and they are more
| twisted about it than the US. The best strategy is to host your
| own and encrypt all, if it's too much effort for some services
| try to use one from a country that has no interest in you
| (outside the west for example).
| axegon_ wrote:
| I've migrated just about everything I was relying on a while
| back. Not only that but I've self-hosted just about everything,
| with the exception of my email and I've moved whatever I have
| public on github to codeberg. With the exception of github pages,
| though I plan on doing that too, when I find motivation to going
| through the tedious DNS management. I've been on and off on qwant
| and ecosia for search(lately ecosia has been stepping up their
| game it seems). But I am considering switching over to searxng, I
| just want to put it behind a squid proxy somewhere remote, away
| from my apartment.
| andix wrote:
| Is there a good tool to automatically (and continuously) mirror
| all GitHub repositories to another provider? Something with GH
| API integration that also catches newly created projects/repos?
|
| Issues and PRs would be a bonus, but not a requirement in my
| case.
| patcon wrote:
| Haven't used it, but I've been intrigued by git-bug (stores
| issues in got itself) for years, to use as the issue/pr sync.
|
| Bonus that now the issues aren't vendor locked either
|
| https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug/blob/trunk/doc/feature-ma...
| brandrick wrote:
| Proton ticks a few of those boxes for me. Mail, VPN, Cal.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Also docs collaboration, and now video calling as well. And
| they've just bought Standard Notes, so that'll be next. It's
| definitely chugging along fast.
| sime2009 wrote:
| proton.me? That is in Switzerland, not the EU.
| knorker wrote:
| The stated reason in the article seems like Switzerland
| should be as good as EU, if not better.
|
| > I have decided to move as many services and subscriptions
| as possible from non-EU countries to the EU or to switch to
| European service providers. The reasons for this are the
| current global political situation and improved data
| protection.
|
| "or switch to European service providers". EU or not, CH is
| still in Europe, so would qualify?
| vertnerd wrote:
| Used Chromebooks are plentiful and cheap on eBay and many of them
| are easy to convert to Linux using the tools and instructions at
| https://docs.mrchromebox.tech/. I used to have a house full of
| Chromebooks, but now all but one of them are Linux laptops. My
| favorite is the Acer CP713 because it comes in flavors with lots
| of RAM and drive space. I also prefer the convertible touchscreen
| models because they can go on a shelf and make cheap and
| attractive Home Assistant dashboards.
| wraptile wrote:
| You can also get a refurbished thinkpad with Ryzen and 16gb of
| ram for 400EUR or so on european Ebay.
| bluebarbet wrote:
| You seem to know what you're talking about. I used a cheapie
| Taiwanese Intel netbook for years, on Linux, with great
| success. When it came to replace it, there was nothing left in
| that niche (i.e. small and cheap) except ARM Chromebooks with
| (apparently) locked bootloaders. So I reluctantly bought a
| heavy and expensive Intel laptop.
|
| Was I wrong to assume that the average big-box-store Chromebook
| cannot be jailbroken, or has only driverless hardware, or are
| things changing here? If the latter, surely this opens a
| boulevard for Linux? Any insight much appreciated.
| dangus wrote:
| I never understood why bother with these.
|
| You get a dealbreaker keyboard because of the lack of an alt
| key and you don't even save much money for the effort of
| working around the Chromebook restrictions. A laptop originally
| sold with Windows is so much more straightforward to work with.
|
| I'd just grab something like an HP EliteBook 840 G10 on eBay.
| Around $300, upgradable RAM and SSD, and reasonably recent.
| Relatively modern/attractive aluminum build.
|
| Or I'm sure there's some other 2-in-1 not-Chromebook
| convertible model you can grab if you need the touch screen.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Buy and support vendors that ship proper Linux laptops. I know
| of Star labs and Nova Custom in the EU, both use coreboot as
| well.
| _pdp_ wrote:
| Our company started migrating our tech stack from USA to EU. We
| are about 90% there with a few small dependencies that could be
| resolved but we have not yet tackled.
| flowerthoughts wrote:
| Could you summarize the easy and hard aspects? Have you had any
| unexpected benefits or downsides?
| spiderfarmer wrote:
| For me:
|
| - SES was a big one. There was no affordable alternative at
| my (not big, not small) scale.
|
| - I'm still waning myself personally of GMail. That
| dependency took decades to build and it will take years for
| all ties to sever.
| Aachen wrote:
| Maybe this comment downthread helps for the email problem?
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47489711
| atoav wrote:
| One tip in the EU is to consider just renting a Hetzner Storage
| Share. This is a 1TB (or more) Nextcloud that Hetzner manages for
| you for 5.11 Euros per month.
|
| A Nextcloud can give you many things at once, file syncing, file
| shares, contact syncing, calendar syncing, etc.
|
| I have been using this for years now after having hosted my own
| Nextcloud instance. The space and performance they give you for
| that price is unbeatable with nearly no downsides. The one
| downside is that you can't just ssh into the server, but you can
| even run occ managment commands via their web interface. It is an
| absolute no-brainer.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| I had no idea how cheap this was. Thanks.
| majoe wrote:
| Had a self hosted nextcloud instance runnning on my homeserver,
| but migrated away two years ago to a Hetzner Storage share. All
| in all I'm quite happy with that.
|
| There are some downsides, though: - No support
| for collabora online, so no way for collaborative editing of
| office files - Data is not encrypted
|
| Hetzner also has classical web hosting offerings, which are
| cheap as well. I'm using that for email and a website of mine.
| gib444 wrote:
| I've just rented one a few days ago!
|
| It's not a full-on Nextcloud instance, mind. For example there
| is no ffmpeg for generating video thumbnails.
|
| But liking it so far
| 4k93n2 wrote:
| just to piggyback off of this, theres also Pikapods (based in
| malta i think) that have about 100 or so self-hosted apps that
| can be installed with one-click and then you just pay depending
| on what you use. im more into self-hosting on my own hardware
| but its a nice option for people who want to get their feet wet
| or that dont have the time to manage a VPS themselves
| lynx97 wrote:
| I find it pretty ironical that people seem to want to move to Von
| der Leyens vision of the future. As a EU citizen, my trust in
| what recently has been going down is almost non-existant.
| ludvigk wrote:
| I guess when the alternative is Trump's vision of the future
| ... - at least I know what I would choose.
| CalRobert wrote:
| I agree, and moved to the EU from the US for related reasons,
| but Von der Leyen's entire strategy for handling Trump seems
| to be immediate capitulation to horrendously one-sided deals,
| which doesn't give a lot of confidence.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Trump will be gone in 2028 and policies may radically change
| depending on who replaces him. There is no change on the
| horizon in the EU when Von Der Leyen is replaced (she is just
| the current public face of the blob...)
| konradx wrote:
| Do you believe this ? Even if the Americans get out of
| their zombie existence and get out to vote (on another
| candidate), I cannot imagine Trump will accept an election
| loss. (A reminder: The US has had a 24% drop in the Liberal
| Democracy Index score in just one year and your supreme
| court is owned)
| Acrobatic_Road wrote:
| >The US has had a 24% drop in the Liberal Democracy Index
| score
|
| Yet another index detached from objective measures.
|
| >your supreme court is owned
|
| The same court that declined to take up Trump's attempt
| to overturn the 2020 election?
| saulapremium wrote:
| >The same court that declined to take up Trump's attempt
| to overturn the 2020 election?
|
| Yes, that same court. It's incredible how rapidly the
| legal system has eroded in the US.
| Acrobatic_Road wrote:
| So you think SCOTUS should have entertained Trump's
| frivolous claims?
| nslsm wrote:
| Von der Leyen has made it clear the values of the EU are
| exactly the same as those of the US:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEbQoT3Xlho
| s_dev wrote:
| That video is from 11 months ago, long before Trump was
| elected for his second term. Once was an anomaly. Twice is
| nearly a pattern but not an anomaly. Third time is an
| established pattern.
| deaux wrote:
| https://bunny.net/ seems solid as a Cloudflare and S3
| replacement. I'm not affiliated but they deserve more mentions in
| these threads.
| christophilus wrote:
| Used them in my last project for around 5 years. They were
| boring in a good way and inexpensive.
| recroad wrote:
| I use them too. Highly recommend. Have never had an issue with
| them.
| spiderfarmer wrote:
| Hetzner and Bunny are solid choices for EU projects.
| jauco wrote:
| Too bad they don't support mtls client certificates or
| something that would allow me to limit the connection to just
| their servers.
| vanviegen wrote:
| I recently used Bunny for a small project. Pretty good
| experience. And they're rolling out new functionality at a good
| pace.
| hbbio wrote:
| Still not accepting Codeberg moral stance.
|
| Yes, gitea (and originally gogs) are released under permissive
| licenses, so it's legally allowed to fork them.
|
| But forking complete working projects with years of work,
| rebranding with a "good guys" attitude, and progressively erasing
| the name/history (mentioning a gitea fork has moved down the faq
| now) is not fair.
|
| Edit: even worse, the word "fork" is not in the FAQ. It is
| "Comparison with Gitea" now (fork is mentioned on that page).
| jen729w wrote:
| > Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person
| obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation
| files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without
| restriction, including without limitation the rights to use,
| copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or
| sell copies of the Software...
|
| - https://github.com/go-gitea/gitea/blob/main/LICENSE
|
| If you don't want your software used like that, don't choose
| this licence.
|
| You can't post-hoc decide how people behave.
| jdiaz97 wrote:
| open source is all fun and games until they fork you
| cobalt60 wrote:
| I mean you build a base for your oss tooling. You reject a
| base's notion, what do you expect?
| looperhacks wrote:
| This is already a crazy take on its own, why would a fork have
| to describe their relation to the parent project front and
| center? Both the Readme and the comparison page link to the
| origin blog post [1] that describes the lineage clearly.
|
| But even if there were some "ethical reason" to do this, I
| don't think Gitea is the right project to play up as a victim.
| Their homepage [2] doesn't mention that Gitea itself is a fork
| either. Their Readme does, but is this so much better?
|
| [1]: https://forgejo.org/2022-12-15-hello-forgejo/ [2]:
| https://about.gitea.com/
| jagermo wrote:
| Uberspace is solid and a lot of fun to try stuff out. For
| domains, i would also recommend inwx.com, they have been around
| for ages, good prices and no-fuzz admin stuff.
| FinnKuhn wrote:
| The author mentions using them as well, but I personally would
| have a really hard time trusting any service run by any
| individual and be it just in case something happens to them.
| jasonvorhe wrote:
| It's a team of 10+ people though.
| shafyy wrote:
| I tried Uberspace for email and what bothered me that you can
| only set up one email domain per Asteroid. So if you have
| multiple domains, it gets expensive quickly... (depending on
| how many users per domain you have). But other than that, great
| company with a great ethical stance (and as far as I can tell,
| great technical infrastructure). I will definitely be going
| back to them if I need a simple VPS.
| debugnik wrote:
| And yet the hardware had to stay all American brands, how sad we
| barely compete there.
| dude250711 wrote:
| That ship had sailed long ago.
| _joel wrote:
| You can take fastmail from my cold, dead hands :D About the only
| thing I can rely on to actually work.
| shafyy wrote:
| Yes, same here. I tried some EU providers like Mailbox, Tuta
| and Uberspace. In the end, even though Fastmail is not EU-
| based, at least it's based in Australia (and not US) and they
| have a solid track record as a company to make the right
| decisions and not chase every hype. So, this is good enough for
| me. For now.
| evan_a_a wrote:
| Australia is a member of five eyes and the US basically
| treats them like the 51st state.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Heyyy! I thought Canada was the 51st state!? Get in line
| Aussies!
| _joel wrote:
| Oh come on guys, everyone knows it's the UK
| s_dev wrote:
| https://european-alternatives.eu/
|
| I recommend Scaleway for cloud hosting. I recently migrated from
| Digital Ocean who I really loved, to Scaleway and have I have to
| say impressed with both dashboard interface and pricing so far.
|
| In work we still use AWS but everything is hosted in eu-west
| (Ireland) in AWS EU Sovereign cloud but not sure how truly
| compliant this is in a CloudAct vs GDPR showdown.
|
| I've yet to migrate from namecheap but planning on moving my
| domains to inwx. My MacBook Pro will be hard to replace so that
| will be years away. Nothing phones look cool but I would like to
| go with EU solutions rather than British ones.
| https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-phone-sep-ii-2026 looks
| cool but some the HackerNews guys have been quite critical so I'm
| still considering what those next devices will be.
| severino wrote:
| > First, I tried mailbox.org, which I can generally recommend
| without reservation. Unfortunately, you can't send emails from
| any address on your own domain without a workaround, so the
| search continued.
|
| I had read about other problems about this mailbox.org service,
| but not this one. Anyone knows what's the catch when trying to
| send emails from your own domain?
| kioleanu wrote:
| I think he means that he can have a catch-all, but to reply
| from that address, there needs to be an alias created on the
| account
| chairhairair wrote:
| "This way, I can enjoy YouTube ad-free and without an account."
|
| Not having the gumption to actually give it up. Pathetic.
| dragochat wrote:
| how about the OPPOSITE problem: _anyone knows of any non-EU AND
| non-US email providers_? with email accounts as the roots of
| trust for many things, i'd really wanna know how can I get a
| trustworthy one not-attached to eithern an unstable system (US),
| or a very overregulating one like the EU juristictions...
|
| and ofc, non-CN too
| realusername wrote:
| Fastmail is australian
| roelschroeven wrote:
| But their servers are in the US.
| petesergeant wrote:
| For email and calendaring, Fastmail, although Her Majesty's
| Australian government has strong overreach instincts.
| dragochat wrote:
| ...would those "overreach instinct" expand to "handing over
| access an overreaching and likely corrupt EU or US
| prosecutor"? (I don't care about 5eyes etc, spyies will spy
| me, I just don't want stuff to be easily and unexpectedly
| draggable in a court case, or am email used as bolt-key to
| access other things to get blocked by a prosecutor's
| regulation...)
| ffsm8 wrote:
| If your threat model includes the USA government then you
| can only go with obscurity, honestly - preferably self
| hosted with a completely locked down system that cannot
| initiate any network communication besides on the relevant
| mail protocol ports, completely immutable filesystem beyond
| the mail data with encryption at rest
|
| And with all of that they'll still be able to pwn you
| through network equipment which relays your mail, eg some
| router or switch which they backdoored and mirrors all
| traffic to their datacenter.
| tbihl wrote:
| >If your threat model includes the USA government then
| you can only go with obscurity, honestly
|
| Or move to Russia. Not recommending, just saying
| lonelyasacloud wrote:
| > For email and calendaring, Fastmail, although Her Majesty's
| Australian government has strong overreach instincts.
|
| The Queen died of 8th September 2022.
| mkl wrote:
| Fastmail's servers are in the US:
| https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-
| us/articles/1500000280221-Ho...
| pavlov wrote:
| So where do you want to host your email?
|
| Name a country and it probably has its own problems: some
| combination of instability, corruption, authoritarian
| governments, collaboration with the US and EU governments that
| you want to escape...
|
| ProtonMail is in Switzerland, so it's perhaps the best
| mainstream bet. But the Swiss are absolutely not immune to US
| and EU pressure.
| lynx97 wrote:
| Isn't Proton planning to move to .de?
| stingraycharles wrote:
| Singapore, Japan have reliable ISPs.
| lmz wrote:
| If the goal is to stay away from US or European influence
| then the Russians would be a better bet.
| stingraycharles wrote:
| Yes but that has the same downsides as China.
| tbihl wrote:
| And that's pretty much the thread. You're either subject
| to a large power's jurisdiction or subject to a
| jurisdiction whose sovereignty is at the pleasure of
| large powers... Pick a threat model, plan appropriately,
| and keep things in perspective.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| I'm using Zoho (Indian company, hosted in Europe). Maybe not
| perfect from a geopolitical pov, but it will do for now.
| dangus wrote:
| lol, you want trustworthy stability without "too many"
| regulations. Good luck with that.
|
| I'm not sure you know what instability means if you think the
| US is unstable. If anything, the fact that the dumbest person
| on the planet is in charge of the United States and the country
| still functions as well as it does proves a lot about the
| stability of the USA. The country runs on geopolitical easy
| mode.
|
| Maybe there's a libertarian fantasy novel where you can host
| your services.
| keybits wrote:
| Runbox are a good option - company and servers in Norway:
| https://runbox.com/
|
| Been around since 2000. They're also working on JMAP support
| and are the top financial contributor to the Stalwart mail
| server (https://opencollective.com/stalwart) so I think they'll
| have a more compelling offering soon.
|
| Also worth keeping an eye on Thunderbird pro which will also
| use Stalwart: https://www.tb.pro/en-US/
| Nemo_bis wrote:
| I agree, as a happy Runbox customer of several years. But
| probably the parent post meant non-EEA too, as Norway is
| effectively subject to any and all EU regulations.
| Aachen wrote:
| Can recommend Runbox for a lot of reasons, but one gotcha
| that bothered me in day-to-day use was that emails are
| delayed by a minimum of 30 seconds, with no real upper bound,
| just a probability curve with, say, the 90th percentile
| around 5 minutes. On rare occasions, that means OTPs or login
| links valid for 5 minutes have expired when you get them. Yes
| this was really on Runbox' side, yes I talked to support, yes
| they cared, yes they subsequently ghosted me when delivering
| the requested headers of emails delayed for more than 5
| minutes which they considered a normal delay "because email
| wasn't _supposed_ to be real-time " (be that as it may, that
| doesn't take away that you sit there 30 seconds... 60
| seconds... 90 seconds, wondering if you should go do
| something else while you wait for the confirmation link and
| get back to your current task later)
|
| Seriously though, nothing but recommended in every other
| regard. Alias management, anonymous domains you can use,
| configuring the sender in Thunderbird no problem, everything
| else was great. My colleagues didn't seem to mind this delay
| so much as me so it's something to be aware of but might work
| fine for you
|
| Edit: I realised this is already like four years ago now, it
| could have gotten fixed in the meantime. It was an issue for
| several years before we switched away for some reason related
| to calendars (don't remember the details, I wasn't my choice)
| pllbnk wrote:
| Recently Runbox had a couple significant outages which made
| me rethink hosting my email with them. I and my family have
| used them for many years and I liked what they offered
| (didn't like bad web UI) but will probably be migrating to
| Fastmail or other when my current subscription expires.
|
| I was disappointed more by their lack of communication than
| by the outages. And one outage wasn't even reported on their
| status page although they confirmed it via support. That's a
| very bad communication.
| PurpleRamen wrote:
| > how about the OPPOSITE problem: _anyone knows of any non-EU
| AND non-US email providers_?
|
| Yes, your own server at home. All countries have fundamentally
| the same problems, so you will have everywhere the same
| tradeoffs as a customer. So it really depends on what your
| specific circumstances and requirements are. If laws are your
| problem, then stay away from countries where you break them;
| otherwise, just don't go where they will sell your data for any
| random penny.
|
| > or a very overregulating one like the EU juristictions...
|
| WTF is this kind of demand? Those regulations do not concern
| you as a user, but can be very beneficial for you, don't you
| understand this?
| groguzt wrote:
| Proton is in Switzerland, which is not part of EU
| dinowars wrote:
| > First, I tried mailbox.org, which I can generally recommend
| without reservation. Unfortunately, you can't send emails from
| any address on your own domain without a workaround
|
| I use mailbox for a long time, one account for 2.50EUR/month with
| multiple custom domains and I can send emails from any address.
| To send from a different address the process didn't really seem
| different than other providers.
|
| From Thunderbird mobile on Android I just add a new sender
| identity. If I need to send from webmail, similarly I just add a
| new alternative sender. Are these the workarounds you mentioned?
| dragochat wrote:
| ...also migrating AWAY from Fastmail (Australian) and TO an
| European provider sounds like a very bad idea - I'd kind of
| want _both_ the US and the EU legally away from my coms at all
| costs (!)
| sakisv wrote:
| While I agree in principle, I have to remind you (and to
| myself) that Australia is part of the Five Eyes:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
| kioleanu wrote:
| The problem is that, even if Fastmail are Australian, they
| host exclusively in the US. They state that sure, there is
| the possibility of interference at the data center level,
| but they rely on their anti-hacking measures to prevent
| unlawful access
| severino wrote:
| Is it that different? Being Australia in alliances like "Five
| Eyes" I don't think you can keep your stuff away from the US
| at least when using Fastmail.
|
| If you want both US & EU away from your data, I suppose you
| will have to consider things like Yandex Mail, which comes
| with its own set of problems too, of course :)
| atmosx wrote:
| Fastmails servers are in the US IIRC.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| As EU citizen I at least got some influence into EU policy. A
| government far away doesn't even have to pretend to care
| about me.
| icfly2 wrote:
| Fastmail runs exclusively of AWS in the US.
|
| I looked into this, there are lots of people in forums
| discussing/ asking for EU based servers.
| nmjenkins wrote:
| Fastmail does not run on AWS:
| https://www.fastmail.com/blog/why-we-use-our-own-hardware/
| AndyMcConachie wrote:
| I also use mailbox.org and use my own domain for email. Not
| sure what issue the author ran into.
| MPSimmons wrote:
| SPF or DKIM maybe?
| okanat wrote:
| See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47492820
| layer8 wrote:
| My understanding is that the number of such sender aliases is
| limited, at most 50 or 250, depending on the plan. There are
| ways to use a custom domain for sending where you end up using
| a larger number of localparts fairly quickly, and it would be a
| hassle to have to manage them, instead of just typing whatever
| sender you want (or on replies, having the email client
| automatically use the address from the original email, without
| having to worry whether it's still in the set of registered
| aliases).
| v20 wrote:
| The limit is only enforced in the web interface. You can send
| from any alias using any third party email client, and on the
| website you can configure a catchall mailbox and create a
| rule to filter out the aliases that receive spam.
| tpetry wrote:
| When you have a custom domain you can list @mydomain.com as
| sending domain allowing you every string before the at
| character. So that means you could use 50 different domains
| with infinite adresses on these domains.
| patapong wrote:
| Hmmm this looks like a really nice option! Any issues with
| deliverability?
| akvadrako wrote:
| I use mailbox for the past few years and I think it's the best
| option out there. But they have one major issue, which is that
| anyone can impersonate your domain:
|
| https://userforum-en.mailbox.org/topic/anti-spoofing-for-cus...
| solstice wrote:
| Oof, what a drag
| okanat wrote:
| I think that is not up to date. Mailbox publishes DKIM
| records: https://kb.mailbox.org/en/private/custom-
| domains/spf-dkim-an...
|
| SPF is here https://kb.mailbox.org/en/private/custom-
| domains/spf-dkim-an...
|
| DMARC is up to the domain owner to set.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Lack of records isn't the issue. You authorize mailbox's
| servers to send on behalf of your domain. Then they let
| anyone with a mailbox account set the from to your domain.
| okanat wrote:
| I see, so their SMTP authentication is woefully broken
| and they let anybody who can send an e-mail from their
| SMTP server to put anything in From: ? That's rather hard
| to believe. The defaults of most SMTP servers like
| Postfix prevent that. Since I don't want to get banned I
| don't really want to test that option with their SMTP
| server.
|
| I took the https://emailspooftest.com/ and while the
| "spoof" mail gets delivered to mailbox.org's Inbox, my
| Thunderbird client is all red and it warns me about DKIM
| and SPF fails.
| brewmarche wrote:
| I think on the sending side, being able to send from
| others' addresses is fixed by now: https://userforum-
| en.mailbox.org/topic/anti-spoofing-for-cus...
|
| But it definitely used to be possible, I tried once with
| success.
|
| Anti spoofing for incoming mails was not perfect the last
| time I checked either, but is a different issue.
| okanat wrote:
| For incoming mail, your client should check regardless of
| the server provider. On Thunderbird I have this
| extension: https://github.com/mcortt/EagleEye . It checks
| for any SPF, DKIM and DMARC fails and shows a banner.
| SPF/DKIM/DMARC is minimum and pretty useless against spam
| though. All phishing e-mails in my GMail account have
| impeccable SPF/DKIM records.
| scrollop wrote:
| Works for me as well.
| mentalgear wrote:
| Have been using mailbox.org with a custom domain (including
| catch-all wildcard) for the last 5 years or so, so it's
| definitely possible and as far I remember quite
| straightforward.
| subzero06 wrote:
| Yea been using mailbox.org for couple months and i can send
| from any address of my own domain...this is bad article. He
| probably doesn't know how to.
| tomgag wrote:
| Can confirm, I use mailbox.org with my own domain and can send
| from any *@mydomain
| shelled wrote:
| I wish they had retained one awesome Thunderbird desktop
| feature on mobile as well - being able to set the "from"
| address on the go while composing the email, without having to
| add an identity/sender-mail in advance. Alas, it seems that
| hasn't been the case.
| piokoch wrote:
| I wonder what will happen when Jordan Bardella will be new France
| president and Alice Weidel will be German Chancellor. Where
| people are going to migrate to then...
| Raed667 wrote:
| > set up catch-all addresses but also send emails from any email
| address I wanted
|
| I have been frustrated with ProtonMail for this exact reason, i
| have a catch all but responding is a hassle where i have to
| manually create an address.
|
| I wish Proton would just allow me to respond to an email from the
| address it was addressed to
| BrunoBernardino wrote:
| For search, I'd suggest Ecosia [1] or Qwant [2] if you don't mind
| ads, or Uruky [3] if you don't want them (full disclosure, I've
| created Uruky with my wife).
|
| [1]: https://ecosia.org
|
| [2]: https://qwant.com
|
| [3]: https://uruky.com
| eino wrote:
| Thanks, uruky sounds quite promising, giving it a try
| BrunoBernardino wrote:
| Thanks, please reach out with any suggestions or problems you
| find!
| Schlagbohrer wrote:
| For anyone who wants some eco-optimism, Ecosia has a youtube
| channel where they film their reforestation efforts.
| BrunoBernardino wrote:
| And a nice blog [1] too!
|
| [1]: https://blog.ecosia.org
| jruz wrote:
| Ecosia is just Google/Bing depending on location.
|
| Qwant is the way to go
| BrunoBernardino wrote:
| Both use Google and Bing, though not exclusively, and both
| joined efforts to create the new, independent EUSP index.
|
| Sources for Ecosia indexes/providers:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosia#Ecosia
|
| Sources for Qwant indexes/providers:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwant#Development
|
| EUSP: https://www.eu-searchperspective.com
| tonydav wrote:
| For mail I've been using migadu.
|
| I self host most services: contacts, calendar, git, ..
|
| Agree on mullvad, buy giftcard on amazon.
|
| Tried hetzner, but it wouldn't allow me to create an account. Ovh
| it is.
|
| I haven't thought about registrars, I don't think it matters for
| most tld. (Moniker, porkbun)
| aktau wrote:
| > Agree on mullvad, buy giftcard on amazon.
|
| I've heard this before. Is this just to add another hop in the
| chain to make it harder for someone to track the user down?
| Apart from someone needing to order Amazon to pony up the
| details ("Which credit card was this Amazon item bought with?")
|
| Is there another layer of privacy I'm missing?
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Or send cash in an envelope.
| tonydav wrote:
| Doesn't cost extra
|
| No need to share my cc with yet another company.
| bombcar wrote:
| Giftcards from Amazon will be enough of a stumbling block to
| stop copyright trolls and such.
|
| it won't even slow down actual criminal investigations by
| nation states and might not even stop a determined civil
| suit.
| drcharris wrote:
| The gift card is a scratch off and has a number that is used
| to fund your Mullvad balance. So Amazon doesn't know which
| instance of the gift card you ordered, meaning there's no
| link to your specific Mullvad account payment.
|
| The authorities might know you ordered _a_ gift card, but not
| which Mullvad account you funded it with.
| kioleanu wrote:
| If you buy directly from Mullvad, they delete the transaction
| details after two weeks. Sure, your payment procesor knows
| you've bought from Mullvad, but in this case so does Amazon,
| no?
|
| Regarding Migadu, after extensive research it seemed to be the
| best option, but man that 20 outgoing emails limit is just so
| off-putting and the next tier is so far apart. I would be
| comfortable paying 50-60 euros per year for 50 outgoing emails,
| but no, it's either 20 for 20 euros or 100 for 90 euros
| zie wrote:
| I have like 20-ish[0] people using my Migadu account and I've
| only hit the hard limit once, and it was because one of them
| was trying to do a mailing list....
|
| Once I got them on a better path, I haven't had any issues. I
| don't remember what plan exactly, but I've been a customer
| for a long time, since they were founded pretty much.
|
| 0: I host a non-profit and we use my migadu account, since
| they are broke and I'm too lazy to count the actual number.
| lvales wrote:
| This is something I've been trying to help people and companies
| with excipio (shameless plug). Data and digital sovereignty are
| fundamental nowadays.
| drstewart wrote:
| Another daily thread on this topic. Interesting. What makes this
| one unique and not exactly like every other one?
| pennaMan wrote:
| > the EU currently has the most user-friendly laws when it comes
| to data protection
|
| This is laughable. The EU has the most big-tech regulatory
| capture friendly data laws that make it really hard for small
| companies to compete, nicely packaged under consumer protection
| pretenses.
|
| Those same laws give the institutions of the state complete and
| total right to silently wiretap the digital existence of anyone,
| at any time, for any reason.
| retinaros wrote:
| migrating to a re gion that votes laws to restrict freedom of
| speech, wants to remove anonymity from social network and can
| block your bank account for opinions that do not align with
| european stance on things like for instance mass migrations from
| third world countries. Yeah seems a smart move.
| sylware wrote:
| Slight detail: EU does not know how to design performant
| mobile/server/desktop CPUs (and GPUs). But they have ASML and
| "obsolete" foundries.
| jdiaz97 wrote:
| yeah the blog is about software, not hardware
| sylware wrote:
| software runs on hardware.
| chupasaurus wrote:
| Yeah, and ARM is based outside of EU, just across La Manche and
| Irish Sea.
| sylware wrote:
| One: ARM has been softbank for a good while now. And softband
| is japanese. Two: ARM ISA is heavily IP locked.
|
| For the moment, would be much more appropriate to design
| performant implementations (mobile/server/desktop) on RISC-V
| ISA.
| aborsy wrote:
| Some of these European countries such as France are quite
| authoritarian. They frequently pass (update: propose/push for)
| laws to ban VPN and even social media, request access to private
| messages, etc. It seems to me the situation is equally bad in EU.
| 9dev wrote:
| You have no idea what you are talking about, really. We don't
| "frequently" pass such laws. Nobody is accessing private
| messages, even if there have been such attempts.
|
| The EU has still the strongest privacy laws world wide, and in
| contrast to others a strong ethical foundation. It may be slow,
| it may be torn, it may be overly beaurocratic, but sure enough
| not authoritarian.
| antievropean wrote:
| Two words: chat control
| Aldipower wrote:
| Defeated! (At least for now...)
| prmoustache wrote:
| https://www.brusselstimes.com/eu-affairs/2030171/end-of-
| chat...
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| France is routinely criticised for its police, justice
| system, and rule of law [1]. In general only the French
| believe that they are a shining beacon.
|
| [1] https://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-
| index/country/Fr...
| prmoustache wrote:
| I don't think the french as a whole believe that. A lot of
| people in France are highly critical of the way the current
| government (and how it is more and more far right leaning)
| has been handling things in the last decade. There is a big
| issue of the police forces syndicates being highly far
| right biased which doesn't help.
|
| Like many countries, it is not homogeneous.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| None of the issues highlighted are because of the last
| decade of any alleged "far right leaning". In fact things
| have probably improved compared to a few decades ago.
| kouunji wrote:
| Honestly this is part of a macro trend of everyone outside the US
| scrambling to get off a US tech stack...these are going to be the
| longer term economic consequences for the country, as it is no
| longer seen as a safe option for any kind of data or service
| exposure.
| gradus_ad wrote:
| The EU is going to fail in the next decade or two. It is a
| financially and politically unsustainable patchwork that will rip
| apart in the great power conflict that is coming. The sick man of
| Europe is now Europe itself.
| alexejb wrote:
| Assuming your assessment is correct, how do you think this will
| affect the digital sector?
| gradus_ad wrote:
| Capital flows to where it enjoys the greatest returns. That
| is not Europe, not now nor in any foreseeable future. There
| is no reason for a skilled professional interested in making
| money to go there.
| Aldipower wrote:
| You know, making money is not everything. Why should I be
| rich in a third-world country (the US).
| alexejb wrote:
| I don't think that this was the intention of the original
| blog post. It's about _digital_ migration for tech savvy
| folks who want to decouple from us-based tech monopolists.
| ankit7000 wrote:
| "Running a EUR5 Hetzner VPS in Helsinki for 1+ year -- CPX22
| gives 3vCPU 4GB RAM. For most indie devs the EU infra is
| genuinely better value than US providers at the same price
| point."
| twoquestions wrote:
| For the longest time it was an economic axiom that regulations
| drive off businesses, and here stronger laws are directly
| attracting business!
| varjag wrote:
| It's the rule of law that attracts business.
| darthcloud wrote:
| As a Canadian, I've been thinking since last year about migrating
| to non-US services and applications.
|
| My main goal is simply to avoid giving money or data directly to
| US corporations. I have no illusions, these non-US services
| probably still benefit US companies in some ways.
|
| They're rare, but I've consciously decided to stay away from some
| Canadian alternatives. The main customers of most Canadian tech
| companies are in the US, and I feel they would happily move there
| if needed.
|
| I started with this:
|
| Gmail / Drive - Proton Mail / Drive
|
| NameCheap / GoDaddy - Infomaniak
|
| Google Maps - TomTom
|
| Google Chrome - Vivaldi
|
| Google Search - Startpage (Vivaldi default)
|
| GitHub - Codeberg & Codefloe (for private)
|
| I do like Proton Mail. The main thing I hate is how often the app
| and web versions get out of sync for read and archive states.
|
| I'm really happy with Infomaniak, migrating all my domains was a
| breeze.
|
| Vivaldi is based on the Chrome codebase, but I really love all
| the extra customization options. It was a very easy switch.
|
| Startpage took me some time to get used to. It's not as good as
| Google, but whatever.
|
| TomTom isn't great, but it's not like Maps has been great over
| the last few years either.
|
| Forgejo is much better than what GitHub has become.
|
| Next, I'm thinking of moving away from Google Photos. I'm
| considering pCloud for that.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > Next, I'm thinking of moving away from Google Photos. I'm
| considering pCloud for that.
|
| Maybe try Immich?
| dwayne_dibley wrote:
| Seconded.
| nsbk wrote:
| I'm in the process of migrating to self-hosted immich and the
| experience is being great so far. If you have a beefy home
| lab it is incredibly fast and performant. One thing to
| mention is that you should have a good backup strategy not to
| risk losing your photo library
| Besticle wrote:
| If you're going through all that effort why not migrate to
| open-source/self-hosted?
| kgwxd wrote:
| Email? The rest of your life will be spent wondering if
| anyone got your message or if you've missed something
| important.
|
| Registrar, and search? Not possible.
|
| Maps? Paper would be more practical.
|
| Browser, done.
|
| Git, a lot of extra work for no gain.
| bluebarbet wrote:
| >Maps? Paper would be more practical.
|
| On the contrary, maps are (IMO) one domain where FOSS is
| genuinely better. OpenStreetMap data is _far_ more detailed
| than any corporate map, and the available clients (Osmand
| in particular) are far more powerful.
|
| You-know-who can only compete because of its (admittedly
| useful) data on businesses. And, alas, because of ignorance
| among normies, many of whom are still clueless that, for
| example, for hiking or outdoor wayfinding, there are much
| better alternatives available.
| delusional wrote:
| We weren't talking FOSS, we were talking self-hosted, and
| self-hosting OSM is ridiculous, especially if you want to
| do routing.
| bluebarbet wrote:
| The maps can be considered metadata. The data is the
| points and tracks, which should be self-hostable. I have
| them synced locally (desktop-mobile). The setup was
| admittedly an absolute PITA involving shell scripting and
| Python.
| kgwxd wrote:
| The map data is great but I guess I really mean
| navigation, which is... not great.
| bluebarbet wrote:
| Yes, that's what's commonly said.
|
| Some anecdata I can offer: since last year I have used
| exclusively Osmand for navigating over 3000 km of cycle
| touring, on roads and paths of all types. The most common
| problem that arises is wrongly tagged surfaces (and
| occasionally access rights) for tracks and paths, i.e.
| for "roads" that do not even appear on the corporate
| maps. There is no comparison in terms of detail.
| Obviously this is less relevant for regular car drivers.
|
| And certainly the situation for FOSS public-transit
| navigation is still quite poor.
| habi wrote:
| > And certainly the situation for FOSS public-transit
| navigation is still quite poor.
|
| https://transitous.org/ (https://github.com/public-
| transport/transitous) works quite well.
| lostmsu wrote:
| I am a little optimistic about radicle for Git
| wolvoleo wrote:
| Yeah I was thinking of getting infomaniak for my mail. I don't
| really care for the encryption thing of proton (all email comes
| in in plain text anyway!) and I want to just be able to do
| plain imap without bridges.
|
| But their stuff just feels a bit weird somehow. I didn't really
| want to commit yet. I'm glad to hear you had good experiences.
| thejohnconway wrote:
| I'm using it Infomaniak, including their KDrive as a Dropbox
| replacement (with 2TB of data). I've even used their video
| conferencing app. No complaints so far. All seems to work
| just fine.
| omnimus wrote:
| The infomaniak KDrive has also pretty great pricing and
| surprisingly great linux client (it even supports
| "online/offline" files.
| frevib wrote:
| Proton has mail, calendar, drive, docs, sheets and more
| coming. Everything is done e2ee where possible. In case of
| mail, when the peer has no Proton, mail is indeed send
| plaintext.
|
| Mail is stored e2ee on server, so not even Proton can read
| it. Proton mail has also made PGP very easy to use. It's
| Swiss based and a foundation, not a corporation. They've done
| this so they cannot easily be bought.
|
| It ticks most boxes in terms of privacy and security.
| Bombthecat wrote:
| Proton is moving out of Swiss, because of privacy concerns
| and new laws...
|
| Just fyi
| frevib wrote:
| They aren't. They do have made their IT such that they
| can move very easily. If the Swiss government will pass
| worse privacy laws, Proton said they will move to Norway
| or Germany.
| exceptione wrote:
| > Mail is stored e2ee on server
|
| Exclusively, or do they keep caches around? I am asking
| since everything is clear text in the webmail. I wonder if
| they handle the rare case of proton to proton (encrypted)
| mail differently from regular unencrypted mail. I assume
| they have to decrypt a master key stored on the server with
| your password, and then decrypt every encrypted email on
| the fly on the server, or they have to send the master key
| to the client side.
|
| Now think that through when you have thousands of
| searchable e-mails, sorted arbitrarily. I won't say it is
| impossible, but I think that maintaining plain text indexes
| rather than encrypted ones are really tempting.
| frevib wrote:
| You're post is full of misconceptions and mistakes.
|
| Mail is stored e2ee exculsively. The've been summoned to
| hand over mail many times, which they weren't able to do.
| Quick search on Ecosia and find the articles.
|
| They don't have a master key or else the whole e2ee story
| is a fad, which it isn't. The Proton code is in Github so
| you can check how it works yourself. Part of the password
| is used to decrypt the data.
|
| Search is done client side. You have to download a big
| search index in order to have proper search. The iOS app
| doesn't support downloading the index so search is
| limited there.
|
| Please think and do some work before you reply.
| exceptione wrote:
| > They don't have a master key or else the whole e2ee
| story is a fad, which it isn't
|
| You can store an encrypted master key (like Luks),
| download that key to the client and decrypt it there. Or
| you can have it in decrypted in server memory, but only
| during an interactive session with the user. But that
| quickly turns into a fad, as you pointed out, which was
| exactly my question.
|
| > The Proton code is in Github so you can check how it
| works yourself. Please think and do some work before you
| reply.
|
| I asked a simple question, so that at others could chime
| in about the exact details and limits. I don't understand
| why that was highly offensive to you, but I assume it is
| something like a Monday Mood.
| Lapel2742 wrote:
| > Proton has mail, calendar, drive, docs, sheets and more
| coming
|
| As of today, there is no official Proton Drive client for
| Linux that I'm aware of. There is unofficial support via
| Rclone, but it is still beta and I try to avoid mounting
| via Rclone anyway. I recall that it wasn't a really
| convincing experience when I tried it with OneDrive.
| frevib wrote:
| Proton Drive for Linux (and Drive SDK) are announced for
| this year. Unfortunately not more specifically than "this
| year".
| pnw wrote:
| I love Proton but it's really low on usability since their
| calendar doesn't integrate with anything (by design). If
| you are used to managing a busy calendar it's quite a
| shock. And their docs and sheets apps are extremely minimal
| and basic.
|
| And of course the recent allegations that they hand over
| your metadata on >90% of requests. See
| https://x.com/DoingFedTime/status/2030108076531995016
| wolvoleo wrote:
| I only want it for the mail. Everything else I self-host
| anyway. It's just that mail is hard with bad actors like
| Microsoft demanding certain reputation standards (e.g. you
| have to send X amount of _legit_ mail per month or you get
| blocked even if they 've never seen spam from you!). But
| for mail the encryption is just useless in my opinion.
|
| The encrypted mail storage adds no value for me because I
| pull all my mail from the server immediately anyway. It's
| just a big hassle to deal with that bridge. And when a mail
| comes in they have to handle it in plaintext (and also, the
| other party sees it which is 90% of the time microsoft or
| google or another bad actor). I just view email as a lost
| cause really.
|
| The only thing I get from Proton is the VPN.
| mentalgear wrote:
| For Photos, consider Ente (e2ee).
|
| Instead of Startpage, try DDG (DuckDuckGo) - been using it now
| for several years instead of Google as I found no difference in
| search quality.
| wccrawford wrote:
| Their whole point was to avoid US companies.
| dv_dt wrote:
| Consider ecosia for search. It's not perfect but is decent
| for most general searches
| cicko wrote:
| Hasn't TomTom completely pivoted to OpenStreetMap? From direct
| contact, I know that they are very active in OSM communities
| now.
| erikvanoosten wrote:
| OSM is one of multiple data sources for TomTom.
| jandrewrogers wrote:
| TomTom isn't OSM, they just use OSM as one input among many
| into their mapping model. OSM has significant limitations as
| a standalone mapping model but many companies find it useful
| for augmenting more sophisticated mapping models.
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > avoid giving money
|
| You're paying for any of these?
| hedora wrote:
| Most of those services are paid by terrible people when you
| use them.
|
| Look at their revenue breakdowns.
| boringg wrote:
| This doesn't make a lot of sense:
|
| "They're rare, but I've consciously decided to stay away from
| some Canadian alternatives. The main customers of most Canadian
| tech companies are in the US, and I feel they would happily
| move there if needed."
|
| So in an effort to veer from the US based on idealogical
| positions you wouldn't support your own countrymen because you
| think in some future state that said copmany might
| hypothetically move to the US?
|
| Canadians unable to support Canadians is what everyone around
| the world should read from this comment. Tall Poppy Syndrome in
| its purest.
| joe_mamba wrote:
| Isn't it compounded with issue that something like 75% of UW
| grads move to the US for work?
| boringg wrote:
| Im not sure I follow your point exactly?
| sodapopcan wrote:
| Agreed, this is a VERY odd statement. There are a bunch of
| Canadian companies that have been here for a long time. I
| don't have the data but would DNS and hosting providers like
| EasyDNS and HostPappa really have primarily US customers?
| bluebarbet wrote:
| >What utter BS
|
| Consider for a moment how you would feel if, after carefully
| composing and sharing your thoughts in good faith, you
| received this response.
| boringg wrote:
| Im sorry but saying you won't support your own people
| because you THINK they MIGHT move to the US is BS (I
| removed it originally because I toned down my knee jerk
| reaction but I defend it as you brought it up). I hope OP
| has enough emotional capability to handle some gentle
| feedback.
|
| FWIW in case you are unfamiliar with it -- Canada has a
| history of not supporting its own products and companies -
| so this sentiment expressed above is tough one to swallow
| given the exceptional talent and capability of Canadians
| and some countries efforts to undermine that.
| tamimio wrote:
| > Tall Poppy Syndrome
|
| I learned something new today, thanks! I did face this a LOT
| in Canadian workforce, never knew it had a term, but the way
| you get undermined and attacked for not being an average is
| crazy, taking/sharing the credit, and pushing you on the
| sides, excluding you from meetings and all shenanigans haha.
| Completely the opposite in the US, not just productivity
| wise, but US companies embrace individualism and "as long as
| you get shit done", go wild! It's why US companies do better,
| I doubt it's the market size as always brought as a
| justification, I am sure if Canadian companies did better
| they will have US based customers too just like Switzerland
| had European ones.
| detectivestory wrote:
| I've moved to pCloud for photos and I've found it to be a good
| alternative. One frustrating thing is that if you are cycling
| through your photos on the default pcloud app, they are usually
| slow to render which can be frustrating. Playing music on the
| app is also a little frustrating. It works, but it it's not an
| amazing UX. Other than that I am completely content with pCloud
| though, and I would recommend it.
|
| One other thing to be made aware of is that the macOS ecosystem
| seems to be a little hostile towards pCloud and it seems to be
| fighting a never ending battle in order to the get the remote
| drive functioning reliably there. It works, but it can be a
| little annoying at times.
| mft_ wrote:
| > the macOS ecosystem seems to be a little hostile towards
| pCloud and it seems to be fighting a never ending battle in
| order to the get the remote drive functioning reliably there
|
| pCloud seems to have been having a few wobbles in the past
| few months, and it's unclear to me whether the root cause is
| external or internal. Two different Windows machines both
| needed manual removal and reinstallation, and the Mac
| installation needed manually updating to a later version due
| to (apparently) an SSL certificate renewal. FWIW the current
| version on my Mac (on Sequoia) seems solid outside of rarely
| needing to select 'Enable Drive' from the menu.
| neonstatic wrote:
| For email I have been quite pleased with RunBox (Norway)
| expedition32 wrote:
| This is why I'm sticking to Spotify.
|
| Maybe corporations can start to market this: we are not an
| American company.
| danilocesar wrote:
| Pcloud is a security nightmare. If you really have to use it,
| add your own crypto layer on top of it.
|
| Gocryptfs works well for that.
| PLMUV9A4UP27D wrote:
| Can you motivate why Pcloud is a security nightmare?
| dzjkb wrote:
| I've recently moved my storage to Jottacloud (Norway), highly
| recommend - they do - gdrive style storage - dropbox style
| synced folders - photo app/backups - PC folder backups with
| apps for mac/win and a cli for linux
| CIARobotFish wrote:
| I've more or less made a similar migration towards non-US
| alternatives for most of my services. In my case, I switched
| from GitHub to Worktree (https://worktree.ca/).
| awongh wrote:
| I'm still waiting and hoping that open street map becomes a
| viable alternative to google maps- it would be great to get a
| firefox of mapping (maybe not the best analogy, but....)
|
| I definitely know that an open mapping solution could gain
| traction and be supported by bigger companies that would use
| it. It seems like a good candidate for the kind of collective
| OSS work that supports other projects- that there are enough
| big-enough companies out there that want an open non-google
| reliant mapping solution that are willing to pool resources.
|
| I know that with mapbox and others that active work is being
| done, but it just doesn't quite seem like it's there yet.
| arielcostas wrote:
| What do you miss about Google Maps in OSM? Just business
| information (schedules, contact info, reviews...), or
| something else?
| snowpid wrote:
| Somebody else, but there is no good OS mobile app for OSM.
| CoMaps is clunky currently.
| patmorgan23 wrote:
| Lyft pays people to help map in OSM. meta and Microsoft have
| both made big contributions as well (like allowing the use of
| Bing imagery)
| chucksmash wrote:
| Amazon also uses and contributes edits to OSM.
| jorvi wrote:
| It doesn't matter if Amazon, Microsoft and Facebook
| contribute or pay huge sums.
|
| Even Apple Maps is heavily, heavily behind Google Maps
| simply because very few users are entering Point of
| Interest info into Apple Maps.
|
| New restaurant opens, or store closes, or opening hours
| change? Google Maps has the updated info within a few
| days. Apple Maps in a year or two, maybe.
|
| That's the moat. The only way either Apple or the other
| corpos catch up is by offering massive financial
| incentives for their users to contribute PoI data.
| chucksmash wrote:
| > It doesn't matter if Amazon, Microsoft and Facebook
| contribute or pay huge sums.
|
| It may not matter for your purposes (i.e. replacing
| Google-Maps-the-product in your daily use as a consumer).
|
| I'd naively expect that having hundreds of thousands of
| Amazon drivers dogfooding these maps daily does help with
| data quality though. So maybe OSM dataset works best as a
| Google Maps replacement if you can shoehorn your usage
| into something that overlaps with the things a gigantic
| logistics operation cares about.
| philwelch wrote:
| A few years ago I got annoyed at Google and switched to
| Apple Maps. Earlier this year I got annoyed with Apple
| Maps and tried Google Maps again before switching back.
| Point of interest data was a minor factor in all of this.
| It might be enough to lock me into using Google to find
| local businesses I didn't know about before, but that
| doesn't force me to use Google Maps for turn by turn
| navigation.
| pkulak wrote:
| I can't recommend Immich enough if you want to move off Google
| Photos.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| Google has two products without competition: YouTube and Google
| Maps.
|
| Don't waste your time trying different map services.
|
| Everything else is super easy to switch to better alternatives,
| especially search, e-mail and browser.
| gib444 wrote:
| Organic Maps is great for offline. It even did better
| directions in Europe recently, because Google Maps does not
| have an "avoid unpaved roads" option.
|
| Apple Maps does driving directions way better in general -
| better visuals, speech etc. It does foreign pronunciations
| better too IIRC. It's even not bad as a PWA on Android (
| https://maps.apple.com ).
|
| Google Maps loves to say take eg "exit Via Emilio Enrico" on
| some random roundabout in some random Italian town, seemingly
| with no idea that there are big signs to eg "VERONA". The
| street name is often totally useless.
|
| I also find Google Maps does a great job at directing me into
| traffic. Like, not unexpected traffic at all.
|
| Google Maps is great at giving you terrible recommendations
| because of the heavily, heavily filtered/gamed reviews
| however. Nothing more untrustworthy than a 4.7 star review on
| Google.
|
| And of course there is also Mapy, HERE, TomTom etc...
| gattilorenz wrote:
| To you people who moved email to a different provider... how
| did you do that, practically? Email signature, reply from
| another address and hope your contacts pick it up, or something
| else? How well did it work?
|
| I have been a user of gmail since you needed an invitation to
| register, and even though I have felt for years the pressure to
| de-google myself, I find it a daunting task due to the amount
| of people/services that think my email account is gmail, and
| forever will be.
| jagermo wrote:
| If you use their domain, its a paint and you need to do the
| steps you mention. If you have your own domain for emails,
| its basically a line in the dns settings and your emails go
| to the new provider. Everyone should own their E-Mail domain
| philwelch wrote:
| This is a lot simpler if you own a personal domain name.
| You're still going to have pain setting that up the first
| time, but afterwards any future migrations will be much
| easier.
| Aachen wrote:
| When first migrating away from Hotmail as a teenager, I just
| registered for new accounts/contracts on my own domain and
| migrated only the stuff I was still actively using
|
| At some point I downloaded the emails from Hotmail by adding
| the account to Thunderbird and copying the contents to a
| local folder. Probably imapsync or some other dedicated tool
| would be more reliable but it seems to have worked for me
| (don't forget to also copy the sent folder). I don't really
| look back at it anymore, after a few years nothing of
| interest lands there. It's still out there though. Data
| hoarder issues with definitively deleting the data from it
|
| I'd keep the account name just in case someone finds that it
| can be re-registered and used to gain access via password
| reset somewhere
| darthcloud wrote:
| I was on gmail since the invitation too. Using their domain.
|
| I started to use my own domain within Gmail 2 years ago.
| Transitioned things I cared about to use that email at that
| time.
|
| Then this years I moved to Proton using that domain. And I'm
| forwarding Gmail to proton indefinitely.
|
| I told my family, friends to start using that address going
| forward.
|
| Slowly but surely as I get email into my gmail folder on
| proton I take the time to go change the address.
|
| The big change is using an address from you own domain.
| Wool2662 wrote:
| Yes, pretty much. I bought a domain to make sure I only have
| to do this once and parked it with Infomaniak.
|
| Then I setup a new mail account (by now I abandoned Proton
| for Infomaniak there as well)
|
| The next year I just kept responding with my new email
| address, asking people to update their contact data and each
| time I logged in somewhere I changed my email address. This
| went really well, just 1 or 2 services where I couldn't
| change it because they only accept the big providers, no
| custom domains.
|
| In the end the first 3 weeks were really painful, afterwards
| it was smooth sailing.
|
| Since then I've swiched provider quite a bit from Proton to
| Zoho and now to Infomaniak (where I will stay for a long time
| I think) and each of those changes took me about 2h each
| time.
|
| So in sumnary, you will curse yourself for a few weeks and
| thank yourself later!
| js-utm32 wrote:
| I auto-forwarded to protonmail and replied from there. It
| took two years before I stopped receiving email that way.
| KomoD wrote:
| > Google Search - Startpage (Vivaldi default)
|
| Startpage is owned by an American advertising company
| https://system1.com
| nopakos wrote:
| One concern is that if an EU company becomes very successful, it
| could easily be acquired by a large U.S. corporation.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Don't worry, EU companies never become that successful
| gib444 wrote:
| Weird, I've worked for multiple that got acquired by US
| companies
| gib444 wrote:
| You're not wrong. But no SaaS is forever. Price rises,
| bankruptcies, ToS changes, change of CEO etc. Being acquired by
| a US company is just one of the things that can happen.
|
| For someone like the author, it's not a reason to stay with a
| US company
|
| And helping European companies be more successful might prevent
| them from selling out...
| mafuy wrote:
| If you have a good path and a bad path that may or may not
| converge sometime later on your journey, you still should walk
| the good path.
| u8080 wrote:
| Reminder: Hetzner/Linode were MITMing their client(jabber.ru)
| withour any legal basis and past prosecution:
| https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/
| silexia wrote:
| The EU has far worse freedom of speech laws than the US, most
| websites would be insane to migrate to the EU.
| OrangePilled wrote:
| The people who publicize this kind of stuff are not the sort to
| ruffle major feathers.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| I wonder what kind of freedom of speech you would require.
|
| There's many a way to ruffle feathers eh?
| dwedge wrote:
| > For various reasons
|
| Because it's trending. Likely the same reason they ended up
| outside the EU in the first place.
|
| I find this to be a non article. They moved from Google to Google
| and Apple, installed Graphene but installed the play store for a
| "significant number of apps", and didn't even consider self
| hosting email or git.
|
| I've probably seen a dozen of these articles now, not to mention
| posts on LinkedIn, and it's a shame that there is almost never
| any real substance to them because on the surface it's an
| interesting thought experiment
| microtonal wrote:
| /r/BuyFromEU is a continuous enumeration of individuals posting
| from what US services to EU services they moved. I agree that
| these posts get uninteresting once you have seen a few. I would
| be more interested in _I have used European service X for 6
| months, these are the up /downsides I found_, since they
| actually help people picking alternatives.
| achayala wrote:
| I did the same! The only problem with this is the uptime of
| codeberg.org, it sucks haha, but that is not a problem for me. I
| have not critical services there.
| bkolobara wrote:
| Shameless plug. We have been working on building a European
| GitHub alternative for private repos at https://lubeno.dev.
| mads_quist wrote:
| If you need an on-call / incident management platform like
| PagerDuty or incident.io All Quiet offers EU based Hosting and is
| operated from Germany:
|
| - https://allquiet.app
| dwedge wrote:
| While it's in your bio, I feel like you should have made it
| more obvious that this is your company
| evnsio wrote:
| Just for completeness, both PagerDuty and incident.io offer EU
| hosting.
| dipshady wrote:
| hello
| fmajid wrote:
| The EU is not a privacy and human rights panacea, as shown by the
| continuing efforts to impose Chat Control. Switzerland is no
| better.
|
| Then again one of my wife's friends is high up in the Canadian
| policy establishment and some of her positions on surveillance
| and political control over social media were chilling, and I
| assume widespread among the Five Eyes. Certainly the UK and
| Australia have deeply authoritarian policies far beyond even
| Trump's wildest dreams.
|
| Small countries like Iceland have enlightened policies but are
| vulnerable to coercion and in fact were militarily occupied
| during WW2.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Yup, I don't get someone who would look at the US and say that
| their government overreach is _particularly_ bad compared to
| the rest of the "first world". For example, the UK is
| arresting people for getting too spicy in school Facebook
| groups[1]. It just feels like "grass is greener" mentality
| because folks on here are most familiar with US political
| issues.
|
| [1] https://www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/police-
| arrest-...
| askonomm wrote:
| Do the immigration police in UK also murder their own
| citizens in broad daylight? What about incarceration (and
| falsely incarcerated) rates? What about general cases of
| police brutality? What about pedophile-run government where
| nobody ever gets arrested? What about a government that's
| bailing out known criminals for money? Or one that rug pulls
| its own citizens via crypto scams, phone scams, citizenship
| scams? USA is so far beyond comparison to any other country
| that it's not even funny. The whole place is a con artists
| paradise, run by con artists, for con artists.
|
| Not to mention that they are actively hostile towards its own
| allies, threaten to annex ally territory, don't want to help
| its allies, and then when it can't pull off a war it on its
| own started, then EU is supposed to come help? And when we
| don't, we get insulted for not being friendly? Honestly, F
| USA, and everything that place stands for. What a toxic
| cesspool of a place.
| gib444 wrote:
| Indeed. USA is gone, got taken over and is now RUSA. The
| rest of the world can see it. Look at the pain their latest
| stupid war is inflicting on Europe. Cui bono...
| Acrobatic_Road wrote:
| >What about pedophile-run government where nobody ever gets
| arrested?
|
| This is just complete nonsense. We are not run by
| pedophiles. Nobody is being arrested because the people you
| want arrested have committed no crimes. Being in the
| Epstein files doesn't make someone a pedophile.
| askonomm wrote:
| I find it odd that EU is judged by efforts that have time and
| time again _failed_, when I'd see that as a perfect example of
| a system actually working, because people do have the power to
| stop hostile legislation, whereas I see no such thing at all in
| the US.
| awongh wrote:
| > The reasons for this are [...] improved data protection.
|
| Didn't the Snowden leaks just prove that the NSA is listening to
| most things anyway?
|
| I suppose this has more to do with the specific case of a lower-
| level agency being able to access your data, rather than it being
| actually secure?
|
| I get that people would be concerned about that scenario, but
| also it seems like a little bit of hair-splitting.
| Schlagbohrer wrote:
| GDPR is real, and real good
| awongh wrote:
| I think GDPR is a good example of why it doesn't really work
| in practice.
|
| I think the fines and enforcement have been a generally good
| balance to the status quo in the USA.
|
| But- in practice, is your data materially used differently
| than in the USA?
|
| The problem is that no one is abandoning facebook, instagram
| or youtube and that data is being used in the exact same way
| as it is in the USA- to sell you things and track you across
| the web. Technically there are more barriers to getting and
| using that data, but I would argue that it's not a blocker,
| just an inconvenience to those using that data- it just makes
| the targeting etc. 10% less accurate. The whole system still
| runs the exact same way.
|
| And, to make it look like it seem like it works now everyone
| has to deal with these dumb popups that don't mean anything.
| pelzatessa wrote:
| > I've always been a happy Mullvad customer. For 5 euros a month,
| I pay a Swedish company that has proven it doesn't log any data
|
| How did they prove that? Is such proof even possible?
| crosa wrote:
| Start by the fact that in their system you are just a random
| number that is generated at the moment you arrive in their
| website. They make very easy to pay without having to use any
| of your personal data, like Credit Card. Overall I think if a
| company put so much effort on that side, they simply don't have
| any data to log, or if they do is pretty anonymous anyway :)
| pelzatessa wrote:
| While their account privacy policy is commendable, it isn't a
| proof for not collecting logs.
|
| Even without personal details you can collect quite a lot of
| data - ip address that uses certain VPN account, which
| servers it talks to while using vpn, at what hours, at what
| intervals, also all the plaintext data exchanged between
| client and server. A lot of data that someone (who might
| already have your ip address mapped to your personal info,
| for example your ISP, or an online store where you shopped
| something before you turned on the VPN) would be willing to
| pay good money for. And companies like money.
| eviks wrote:
| The usual proof is whether law enforcement agencies can force
| the company to share such data
| Aachen wrote:
| Also based on your reply on a sibling thread, is this a legit
| question (you expect that there is a way but you're not sure
| how) or are you just waiting for someone to bite just so you
| can state your case about proving a negative?
| pelzatessa wrote:
| Not sure which thread you're referring to, but yeah, it is a
| legit question. I genuinely wondered what made the OP state
| that it's proven that mullvad doesn't collect logs. While I
| don't think it's possible at all to prove that some software
| is running on a remote server, or that this software doesn't
| collect logs, some people try to find a way to do that, for
| example Signal claimed that one can verify code running on
| their servers by code attestation feature embedded in their
| Intel SGX enclaves, see https://signal.org/blog/private-
| contact-discovery/
| Aldipower wrote:
| For transactional email, Lettermint is a great email broadcaster
| from the Netherlands. Saying this as a German means they really
| must be good!
| NoSalt wrote:
| > _" the EU currently has the most user-friendly laws when it
| comes to data protection"_
|
| I have not done any research into this facet of EU laws, but
| isn't the EU simply horrible when it comes to privacy of your
| data from a nosy government?
| cl3misch wrote:
| I think OP means user-friendly in the relationship user-
| company, not user-government.
| jojomodding wrote:
| In what sense are governments in the EU more nosy than the one
| in the US or China?
| SlinkyOnStairs wrote:
| > but isn't the EU simply horrible when it comes to privacy of
| your data from a nosy government?
|
| It's a case of "better is not perfect".
|
| Yes, the EU & it's member states allow the police quite a bit
| of access to data and servers. However, there are still
| decently functional checks and balances. Unlike China, unlike
| Russia, unlike the US, where there is a carte-blanche already
| employed by authoritarian governments.
|
| What the line really seems to refer to is _General_ data
| protection. While "the state spies on you" is one attack
| vector, and one certainly becoming dangerous for oppressed
| minority groups in the US, it's not the only one.
|
| For most people, really, all people because the authoritarian
| systems rely heavily on data from breaches, the chief risk to
| one's wellbeing are said data breaches. Of companies recklessly
| collecting all data they can get their hands on and retaining
| it forever.
|
| _There_ , the EU does have notably better laws. Where data
| collection and retention are restricted, and user-requested
| deletion is a legal right. (Enforcement of this is still a
| mess.)
| Ylpertnodi wrote:
| > but isn't the EU simply horrible when it comes to privacy of
| your data from a nosy government?
|
| Depends on the country, as much as it would xState in the US.
| canmi21 wrote:
| Big companies never treat your data good. It's better to store it
| privately :(
| max_ wrote:
| > The reasons for this are the current global political situation
| and improved data protection
|
| I don't understand why people keep saying this when Europe is
| more hostile towards privacy.
|
| The constantly insist on schemes like chat control, and
| GrapheneOS users are often confronted by legal authorities.
|
| They may have "the laws", but its way less trust worthy.
| mafuy wrote:
| You misunderstand this. Yes, there have been moves by some in
| the EU to reduce privacy, but they face resistance and have
| actually been repelled often. The ChatControl debacle you
| mention is one such instance. And on the other hand, sometimes
| there is actual progress, like with GDPR.
|
| But more importantly, at least there are privacy laws in the EU
| that do _something_. In the US, there are virtually none, so of
| course you won 't hear about their erosion.
|
| I trust the EU ten times more than the US in this regard.
| kuon wrote:
| For domains, spread them across multiple registrars.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Foolish blunder
| gib444 wrote:
| Not a fan of Mailbox.org. It's Nextcloud for starters. The UX is
| clunky. They feel a 30 day web app session expiry is perfectly
| fine.
|
| I've gone back to FastMail for the time being
|
| I think what I really want is:
|
| - FastMail or similar for sending, and receiving new emails
|
| - An email archive system that syncs from my main email provider,
| deleting from the remote anything over eg 4 weeks old
|
| I like hosted providers for their IP reputation, spam systems,
| deliverability etc (and in the case of FM, the excellent web UI)
| but I don't like them having 15 years of my email which they can
| read whenever they wish. (edit: yes, I realise they could just
| keep copies)
|
| Does anyone else have this kind of set up? Any recommendations to
| remove the pain of having a mailbox split into 2?
| gib444 wrote:
| There are reasons other than privacy to move to non-US companies:
| e.g. not wanting contribute to the US economy and the further
| expansion of US tech companies. This is my main motivation in
| fact.
|
| So criticisms about these kind of posts and initiatives along the
| lines of "EU privacy bad too" are insufficient and are
| unpersuasive.
| ta9000 wrote:
| Frankly many in the US are over the Trump administration and I
| expect a massive backlash in the midterms. Do what you want of
| course but I think the descent of the US is slowing and there
| will be a return to normalcy after this admin.
| Ylpertnodi wrote:
| Promise?
| Lapel2742 wrote:
| It's still the same population that voted for Trump twice. It's
| the same constitution, the same supreme court, the same
| parties, the same oligarchie and the same god-king like office
| of the US president.
|
| Nothing will change with respect to trust after the midterms.
| vldszn wrote:
| Not sure if it counts, but I'm based in Warsaw, Poland (EU) and
| working on a free and open-source invoice generator:
| https://easyinvoicepdf.com
|
| Github: https://github.com/VladSez/easy-invoice-pdf
|
| It doesn't have any backend and all data is stored in the
| browser.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| > For a long time, I was a satisfied Namecheap customer.
|
| Other than them suddenly and arbitrarily deleting your account on
| a week's notice if you chose to have been born in the wrong
| country, they're great.
|
| Arbitrarily because you can always email them and explain why you
| chose to be born in the wrong country and how you're actually one
| of the good ones.
|
| But you don't understand: most of their employees are from a
| country that the wrong country is currently in conflict with, so
| they can't stand idly by while you sit there with your birth
| certificate hanging over you.
| _the_inflator wrote:
| European here.
|
| "Migrating to the EU" is serving a self-fulfilling delusion just
| as joining the so -called revolutionary forces after WW2 and
| moving to eastern Europe.
|
| The EU does everything to de-industrialize itself and protect its
| ground by using surveillance tools branded as "child protection"
| rules.
|
| Europeans don't have any tradition in thinking in freedom, in
| civil rights, in having a state that isn't there to spoil you,
| but grant basic service to allow you to shape your life the way
| you want it. Instead, Europeans hunger for "the state", thrive
| under more and more "protection rules" and supervision over the
| economy.
|
| Anything and everything that requires financial and economic
| freedom is deemed suspicious and under the disguise of equality
| needs to be taxed into the ground.
|
| Almost no one takes offense by the fact that the predominant
| topics in the EU center around perceived life-style threads all
| caused by one person thousands of miles away while wondering that
| the quality of life and public service going down the hill and
| every still existing local newspaper looks like an international
| outlet like New York Times: local topics don't exist. Anything
| and everything has to be linked to something that can be linked
| to "the fight against XYZ" not simply pragmatism or anything
| rational.
|
| In Germany there is a former major party imploding in record
| time, having absolutely no representation anymore. And what these
| radicals do, is building a self-serving kraken, that checks off
| any and every checkmark of an totalitarian playbook.
|
| And this shall be the basis for making my future depend an
| services having to exist within these given circumstances?
|
| The genius thing about US constitution is the inherit limitation
| of terms. You see exactly the opposite in anything and everything
| in the EU and Germany. 14 or 16+ years of being in control means
| there was never any need to readjust.
|
| I am more than happy and willing to move everything out of the
| EU.
|
| Given the fact that europeans think, that a "Hosted in the EU"
| service is 100% European (whatever the term means) is some sort
| of discriminatory - something that is dealing with the double
| standard rampant in the EU.
|
| BTW, I am still waiting for full autonomy: nothing from Github or
| any open source project that traces back to Github was used in
| this service.
|
| European arrogance is so disgusting. Instead of simply changing
| the tune and accepting the fact, that different circumstances
| lead to different results, there is some sort of ego distorting
| the decision making process.
|
| How much more evidence is needed, that the EU is lost compared to
| services done in the US? And you should look at the whole
| picture, instead of using your gut to draw conclusions.
|
| I admire and acknowledge anything and everything that has been
| achieved in the US in regards to Computer Science.
|
| I will never ever migrate to the EU. Never.
| Ylpertnodi wrote:
| > European here. > in Germany....
|
| We're not all Germany over here.
| oblio wrote:
| Linus Torvalds is Finnish.
|
| Guido Van Rossum is Dutch.
|
| Anders Hejlsberg is Danish.
|
| Bjarne Stroustroup is Danish (I think?).
|
| Rasmus Lersdorf is Danish.
|
| Bram Molenaar was Dutch.
|
| Edgar Dijkstra was Dutch.
|
| Niklaus Wirth was Swiss.
|
| Andrei Alexandrescu is Romanian.
|
| I can probably think of many others.
|
| The US is good at inventing things but it's amazing at
| marketing them and making money and drawing others to do the
| inventing for them.
| keybored wrote:
| I haven't talked to all Europeans, like Albanians, but I can't
| imagine that we all monomaniacally obsess about all the
| trending culture war talking points. Like you just breathlessly
| throw out Child Protection Rules at the end of a sentence. Huh?
|
| Is one supposed to go over such a laundry list/dump of talking
| points one by one? It hardly seems serious.
| saulapremium wrote:
| Mate, you need to work on your communication skills. Or just
| get an LLM to boils things down a bit.
| cdrnsf wrote:
| Migrating away from US services altogether is an admirable goal.
| In cases where that's not possible, it's still worth moving off
| the services and platforms offered by large tech companies.
| levmiseri wrote:
| For a European alternative to Google Docs / Notion, we made
| https://kraa.io/about that might work for you if all you need is
| a simple editor with collab features.
| XCSme wrote:
| Shameless plug: if you think about switching from Google
| Analytics/Hotjar, check out my project[0] (built in EU, started
| in Romania, now working on it remotely in Netherlands).
|
| If not, happy to hear any criticism or the alternatives you
| decided to go with instead.
|
| [0]: https://www.uxwizz.com
| stronglikedan wrote:
| What a waste of time. It's all the same regardless of location.
| There's better things to do than worry about bogeymen.
| leftytak wrote:
| I'd like to get out of the matrix as much as the next guy, but I
| haven't found any reliable alternatives that actually provide
| equivalent services.
|
| And in terms of degoogled phones, I like the idea, but the
| conspiracy theorist in me tells me, "hhhhmmmm, people are leaving
| the google / apple ecosystem, and the best phones out there for
| degooling is Pixel phones by google..."
|
| That's like the best move Google made, their "free" services are
| the main driver for selling their phones.
| whiterose1214 wrote:
| Lot of discussion about different privacy laws across
| jurisdictions, and while I understand a lot of users have
| different approaches to privacy and opinions on political
| matters, realistically if your threat model is the NSA or some
| other three-letter agency:
|
| a) migrating to a different jurisdiction isn't realistically a
| massive barrier for them (related:
| https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1401_08-12_mickens.pdf)
|
| b) if they're taking the time to get a "secret" warrant for you,
| you have much larger issues. It's like building a car that's
| resistant to hellfire missiles. It'll help, but if you're getting
| hellfire missiles thrown at you, you have much larger problems
| than the structural integrity of your vehicle.
|
| Realistically, there's a reason that a lot of these services are
| underused. Many of them lack reliable support, many of them
| aren't as useful, and the vast majority lack the
| interconnectivity that makes services like Drive and Gmail so
| useful to the vast majority of consumers. In addition, if your
| evaluation of the utility of US companies is based on which party
| is in power, you should know that both parties equally don't care
| about your privacy, and never have.
| jrexilius wrote:
| If your threat model is the NSA, moving to non-US providers
| actually lowers the barrier as they no longer have to deal with
| the US constitution and US citizen data. If your threat model
| is law enforcement (or border/customs, et al), moving to EU
| really doesn't cause much in the way of speed bumps.
|
| In my opinion though, the real threat model is not the actual
| government, its the US corporations. The NSA wont sell your
| information to any bad actor with a credit card and,
| realistically, doesn't care about you. But there is much that
| can be stolen or exploited for financially-motivated bad-actors
| from non-extradition countries or others with differing
| interests than your own.
| cjs_ac wrote:
| Yeah, sure, but this idea that the government is the threat
| you're defending against is very American. I'm not saying I
| trust my government with a lot of my personal data, but they're
| not the most important threat I'm defending against when I look
| after my privacy online.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Defeatism; alternatives don't have to be perfect to be useful.
| In other words, it's a journey, not a destination.
| whiterose1214 wrote:
| Totally get what you're saying, and improving personal
| security can also be fun as a mental exercise. It's just
| there's a lot comments in this thread (hundreds) about how
| you can migrate EU to escape USG surveillance, which is just
| not realistic.
| jwr wrote:
| I can recommend:
|
| * Hetzner.de for servers (I've been using their physical servers
| for many years now, incredible performance per EUR spent)
|
| * Fernand as your CRM, it's smooth and nice and so much better
| and faster than all the zendesks and freshdesks it's not even
| funny. (https://getfernand.com/)
|
| * AISLER if you design electronics and need to make PCBs
| (https://aisler.net/)
| matt-p wrote:
| AISLER are AMAZING at printing boards, but sadly are very very
| expensive for assembly.
|
| Love them though.
| deepsun wrote:
| Thanks, just a note that by "CRM" people typically think of
| Sales (Salesforce, Hubspot etc), not Support (zendesks and
| freshdesks).
| perch56 wrote:
| Ehm sorry but no. CRM stands for Customer Relationship
| Management so ... a support ticket is, by definition, a
| customer relationship event.
|
| Salesforce spending millions to conflate "CRM" with "sales
| pipeline" was just marketing.
|
| Also, Zendesk calls itself a CRM. Freshdesk's parent is
| literally named Freshworks CRM. Gartner and Forrester have
| always put support under the CRM umbrella.
| varispeed wrote:
| I like that German company offers Blitz service. Tempted to
| order something from the UK.
| matt-p wrote:
| You do pay import tax, plus admin fee to the carrier - or did
| last time I ordered. But factoring it in its still a great
| deal.
| varispeed wrote:
| That's fine. Same from China etc.
| frevib wrote:
| Scaleway for cloud: great UI, CLI, Terraform. Like you've never
| left Azure.
| antonkochubey wrote:
| >great
|
| >like you've never left Azure
|
| hmmmmmm
| esher wrote:
| I don't like all the 'us against them' rhetoric going on. All
| that European alternatives talk is not much better than America
| first.
| Insanity wrote:
| It's a geopolitical reality. Not liking the 'us against them'
| mentality is fair enough, I agree with that, but we can't be
| blind to what's happening around us.
|
| Also, I do think that there's benefit to opting for EU
| products, as they are generally more 'consumer-rights' friendly
| than the US alternatives.
| vages wrote:
| Most of the articles I read about this is about showing that
| going all-European is possible at all. If that feels like it's
| an us vs. them thing, I'm not sure how I could change your
| mind.
| malbs wrote:
| For email, I've been using migadu for a number of years now. Very
| happy with the service/support I get for the amount I pay per
| year
| moltar wrote:
| Fastmail is Australian
| ellieh wrote:
| > Codeberg is a German-based nonprofit organization, and it's
| hard to imagine going wrong with this choice.
|
| I like what they're doing, however Codeberg's 14 day uptime is
| _97.05%_. I've heard from many that downtime is normal there, and
| is worse than GitHub (which is already... bad). This makes them a
| non-starter imo, until that improves.
|
| With the current trend of things going down _all the time_ , the
| best way to compete is just to be available.
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