[HN Gopher] 404 Deno CEO not found
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404 Deno CEO not found
Author : WhyNotHugo
Score : 240 points
Date : 2026-03-21 15:10 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (dbushell.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (dbushell.com)
| mrtksn wrote:
| What is Deno's business model? How do you build business around a
| JS runtime? What to they pitch to the early investors even?
| embedding-shape wrote:
| > What is Deno's business model? How do you build business
| around a JS runtime?
|
| Everything else. Seems everyone and their mother are building
| "platforms", so they can properly lock you in, look at Vercel
| for example, to get some inspiration where the rest is probably
| at least aiming.
|
| Not sure why people keep falling for it though, guess it's easy
| enough to get started that people don't really want to
| understand deeper, if you can pay someone $XXX/month to not
| have to think about it, many people tend to go that route,
| especially if VC-infested.
| pjmlp wrote:
| The problem is that outside big corporations, devs nowadays
| aren't willing to pay for development tooling, although we
| surely like to be paid.
|
| Thus platforms and SaaS products, seem to be the only way to
| make sustainable open source products.
| re-thc wrote:
| > devs nowadays aren't willing to pay for development
| tooling
|
| I can't speak generally because it varies but is this
| really the case here? Other posters have commented on
| missing features and issues with their product i.e. Deno
| Deploy so is it not willing to pay or not worth it?
| mrtksn wrote:
| Devs are notoriously hard to sell. They are hard to
| impress(I can do that in a weekend, which is also
| probably true for Deno anyway) and stingy.
| verdverm wrote:
| Hosting (Deno Deploy), https://deno.com/deploy/pricing
| progx wrote:
| Wait until a big company buy them. That seems not to happen.
| tossandthrow wrote:
| I have switched entirely away from anything deno, even though I
| used it in supabase.
|
| But I need to have everything in a mono repo for agents to
| properly work on in.
|
| Cloud functions and weak desperation between dev and prod is a
| mess, even more so with agents in the loop.
| verdverm wrote:
| > But I need to have everything in a mono repo for agents to
| properly work on in.
|
| Why is that? Seems like an agent framework limitation, not a
| reasonable requirement in general. (I do not have this
| limitation, but I also have a custom agent stack)
| simonw wrote:
| I've found myself occasionally wishing I had a monorepo
| purely for Claude Code for web (Anthropic's hosted version of
| Claude Code), since it can currently only work with one
| private repository at a time.
|
| On my own machine I have a dev/ folder full of checkouts of
| other repos, and I'll often run Claude Code or Codex CLI in
| that top level folder and tell it to make changes to multiple
| projects at once. That works just fine.
| verdverm wrote:
| The "dev/" folder concept is what I give my agent, so I can
| select what I want it to have access to. On my computer, I
| have a few of those to group those that go together.
| bcye wrote:
| Couldn't you make a pseudo monorepo via git submodules?
| verdverm wrote:
| Submodules are pain, use the dependency management
| systems for the languages in your monorepo.
| simonw wrote:
| I don't think there's a way to have that work in Claude
| Code for web, since each checkout there uses a custom
| GitHub access token scoped to a single repository.
| verdverm wrote:
| GitHub tokens can span more than one repo or org if the
| account requesting has access to them. Is this supported
| on the non-web version?
|
| (I was going to try claude again this weekend, but when I
| tried to login, got an error and am reminded how much
| down time I experience from Anthropic, arg...)
| simonw wrote:
| The non web version uses whatever credentials you have
| setup yourself, so it works just fine.
| verdverm wrote:
| Is that host level or can I provide scoped tokens based
| on what I'm doing?
|
| In other words, do Anthropic tools provide any
| affordances for this or is it something I have to manage
| externally?
| simonw wrote:
| I'm just talking about the version of Claude Code which
| runs in containers on their infrastructure here - they
| call it "Claude Code on the web" (terrible name) and you
| access it through their native apps or from
| https://claude.ai/code
|
| That product only works against one GitHub repo at a
| time. The Claude Code you install and run locally doesn't
| have a GitHub attachment at all and can run against
| whatever you checkout yourself.
|
| Here's an open feature request about it:
| https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/23627
| redkoala wrote:
| This site (from nx), while biased, explains it best.
| https://monorepo.tools/
|
| In a poly repo setup, agents are less effective having to
| infer changes across repo boundaries using specs rather than
| code as context. Changes that impact multiple repos are also
| much messier to wrangle.
| verdverm wrote:
| Monorepos come with a lot of pain too. Two sides of the
| same coin. I manage the build system for a large monorepo.
| Questions that will get you to a primary source of pain...
|
| How do you minimally build based on the changeset? How do
| you know this is sufficient for correctness? What happens
| when feature branches get out of date and don't see the
| upstream change that breaks the local branch? How do you
| version subprojects, as they change or as a whole?
|
| Monorepos have a habit of creating hidden dependencies. The
| languages you use can help or hurt here.
| notnullorvoid wrote:
| > But I need to have everything in a mono repo for agents to
| properly work on in.
|
| Why was this a problem with Deno? Up until recently you had to
| use package.json and npm/pnpm for it to work, but even then it
| was better than Bun or Node since you could use import map to
| avoid compiling packages for testing etc (Node and Bun's type
| stripping doesn't work across local monorepo dependencies, and
| tsx produces mangled source maps making debugging a hassle).
| Now Deno has built-in workspace/monorepo support in deno.json.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Trying to pull people away from reference tooling requires lots
| of investment and historical has always failed.
|
| Eventually the reference implementation gets good enough, and
| that is it.
|
| In JavaScript case, the first error was to ignore compatibility
| with native addons and existing nodejs modules.
|
| The second was not providing a business value why porting, with
| the pain of compatibility, one because "it feels better" doesn't
| release budgets in most companies.
| philipallstar wrote:
| In this case I think the reference implementation was created
| by one of the deno founders.
| pjmlp wrote:
| It was, but he went too far with the second attempt.
|
| Also not everyone gets it right, only because they got lucky
| once, history is full of one hit wonders.
| philipallstar wrote:
| Well, indeed. History is full of zero-hitters, with a few
| nonzero hit-wonders.
| irickt wrote:
| The article is mostly a rant about Deno not making a public
| statement about layoffs. This links to the individual statements
| about leaving:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Deno/comments/1rwjaeb/whats_going_o...
| postepowanieadm wrote:
| I'm afraid something like that could happen to bun.
| progx wrote:
| Anthropic acquired Bun, so money should not be a problem for
| the next couple of years.
| verdverm wrote:
| It also means the Bun team is no longer in control.
| Acquisition has a similar time frame and we've seen numerous
| projects chart a similar path to irrelevance.
| shimman wrote:
| Anthropic, the company that actually has much worse revenues
| and likely mislead the public? [1] That Anthropic? The same
| Anthropic that has taken billions of gulf state money where
| the countries are on the verge of divesting itself from the
| US or fear of potentially losing their refineries + oil
| fields for at least 50 years? That same Anthropic?
|
| This house of cards is about to collapse and lot of "smart"
| devs are going to act shocked when the water recedes.
|
| The same thing always happens: companies "adopt" open source
| then, unless you have monopoly, money problems eventually
| appear and leadership sees this lovely team with "bloated
| budget" in the bylines.
|
| [1] https://www.reuters.com/commentary/breakingviews/anthropi
| c-g...
| luckydata wrote:
| the sky is falling...
| NewsaHackO wrote:
| I hate it when people use commentary articles as fake
| sources for their points. It's even more aggravating when
| the "journalists" are making points that play to the
| ignorance and outrage of the reader, as they know those
| readers are the easiest to bait for clicks and mislead. For
| instance, how is Anthropic claiming that its total revenue
| since January 2025 as $5 billion contradict that its
| expected run-rate revenue for the year 2026 is $19 billion?
| apgwoz wrote:
| > Anthropic claiming that its total revenue since January
| 2025 as $5 billion contradict that its expected run-rate
| revenue for the year 2026 is $19 billion?
|
| Isn't the "exceeding $5BN" comment a lifetime revenue?
| ... on $30BN (edit: previously said spent) raised (or
| something ridiculous.)
|
| A lot of the commentary on the frontier model companies
| is based on how much money they've spent to the
| relatively small amount they've made in return, and the
| skepticism, especially given almost continuous reporting,
| that deploying AI in a variety of situations doesn't seem
| to yield favorable business outcomes. OpenAI shifting to
| enterprise / coding type stuff this week seems, also,
| potentially informative. Is Gen AI actually useful for
| anything but code? Signs keep pointing to no... and even
| then, we're in the early stages of figuring out how to
| build without destroying everything... something Amazon
| just recognized as possible with their recent shopping
| outage.
| NewsaHackO wrote:
| > on $30BN spent (or something ridiculous.)
|
| Where did you get that figure? The filing says 10 billion
| has been spent on training and serving customers.
| apgwoz wrote:
| Whoops! Not spent, raised.
| 0xfffafaCrash wrote:
| I'm not familiar with the author but something about this post
| just seems mean-spirited and petty.
|
| Deno might not succeed as a project, especially with strong
| competition from Bun as an alternative to Node, but I would say
| that Deno has been more a force for bettering the ecosystem than
| not.
|
| Many of those at Deno, including Ryan as well as some of those
| who have apparently left or been let go have been major
| contributors to the web development ecosystem. Thank you all for
| your work -- we're better off for your contributions.
| progx wrote:
| Has any competitor copied anything from Deno?
| ronsor wrote:
| Deno basically popularized the idea of a standalone JS
| runtime that primarily relies on standard Web APIs over "in-
| house" APIs like Node, although we can say that those
| standard APIs didn't exist yet when Node was created and for
| most of its rising period.
| sheept wrote:
| Not only that, but they helped push for new web APIs and
| language features for server runtimes, like URLPattern
| verdverm wrote:
| I always thought Deno was more or less trying to copy the
| Cloudflare (edge) runtime, but decided incompatibility was a
| good idea. The ecosystem bifurcation was the mistake, which
| they came around on, but it was already too late by then.
| 0xfffafaCrash wrote:
| I think it's fair to say that work on the experimental-strip-
| types option in Node was inspired/energized by a desire to
| try to catch up with the DX improvements found in Deno for
| Typescript-first development that is now the norm.
| ZebulonP wrote:
| I don't think I'd go as far as "copying" but Deno was the
| first to aggressively push for web standards in server-side
| runtimes and certainly helped accelerate getting them adopted
| in that environment.
|
| I work at Cloudflare on Workers (but infrequently work on our
| runtime) and I've always been pretty impressed with Deno.
| Their recent-ish support for built-in OpenTelemetry is
| something we've been wanting to do for a while and have been
| working on, but Deno was able to build a good implementation
| of that in that time.
| kentonv wrote:
| Cloudflare Workers was actually pushing for web standards
| on the server side several months before Deno was
| announced. :)
|
| Though Ryan of course had a lot more clout from day 1 than
| I did.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Bun, competition?
|
| Zig is yet to be 1.0, and who knows what anthropic will make
| out of it.
|
| They can even pivot yet again back into node, as most
| acquisitions go.
| nine_k wrote:
| In the mindshare, certainly.
|
| Bun to Deno is what Zig i to Rust: a much simpler, much
| easier way to overcome its common predecessor's shortcomings.
| Not nearly as thoroughly and revolutionarily, but still.
| pjmlp wrote:
| What matters is business users.
| pier25 wrote:
| You know any services as big as X or Claude Code built with
| Deno?
|
| AFAIK the biggest users of Deno are using their subhosting
| service (Netlify, Slack, etc) to allow third parties to
| execute TS code.
| riazrizvi wrote:
| Isn't it reasonable bitterness? He invested a lot of his own
| life on a promise that didn't pan out, and there's probably a
| lot of people in that community. Leadership comes with
| responsibility and consequences.
|
| Content marketed at wannabe startup founders tends to be
| encouraging and panglossian. It's good to see here what you're
| signing up for if you succeed with some degree of traction.
| Yhippa wrote:
| > He invested a lot of his own life on a promise that didn't
| pan out
|
| Whose fault is that?
| yladiz wrote:
| So just don't trust people or organizations? Like sure it's
| the author's fault in a sense but should they have just not
| trusted in the first place?
| chipgap98 wrote:
| > He invested a lot of his own life on a promise that didn't
| pan out
|
| So did the people who built Deno
| Lord_Zero wrote:
| Does any of this transfer over to Bun as well?
| pjmlp wrote:
| Definitely, as it depends on where Zig goes, and what Antrophic
| will make out of it.
| verdverm wrote:
| For me yes, I have never found these alternative runtimes
| appealing.
|
| However Anthropic owns Bun now, so a different story will
| unfold.
| imeron wrote:
| I honestly can't think of a single practical scenario where I'd
| pick Deno over Node + npm today. Bun, on the other hand, has
| pretty much claimed the performance crown for itself at this
| point.
| egeozcan wrote:
| Bun is pragmatic, extremely fast and self-contained. Ryan Dahl
| is a hero of mine but Deno could be neither of those, which is
| a shame, but to answer your question, no, not much of these can
| be said for Bun.
| gkoberger wrote:
| I didn't like the tone of this. Building a company is hard.
| Building an VC-backed open source product is really, really hard.
|
| I know on HN we don't always love CEOs, and that's okay... the
| ethos of startups has changed over the past 10 years, and tech
| has shifted away from tinkerers and more toward Wall Street. But
| Ryan Dahl isn't doing that; he's a tinkerer and a builder.
|
| I dunno, I just don't like this vibe of "what have you done for
| me recently" in this post, especially given he skipped over the
| company and is calling out Ryan directly for some reason. Ryan is
| responsible for many of our careers; Node is the first language I
| really felt at home with.
|
| Comparing him to Nero is gross.
| simonw wrote:
| Yeah, the tone felt off to me too. It felt a bit too much like
| a celebration of "look how right I was" concerning their
| earlier posts.
| echelon wrote:
| Fuck this blog post.
|
| I'll say it.
|
| This author is being an asshole and punching good people when
| they're down.
|
| We live in a land of goddamned hyperscalers and megacorps
| trying to minimize how much they pay us (or get rid of us).
| Trillion dollar Zeuses that skirt by antitrust regulations for
| decades on end, crushing any would-be competition. Pilfering
| from open source while encrusting it in proprietary systems
| that cost an arm and a leg. Destroying the open web, turning
| every channel into an advertising shakedown, monitoring us,
| spying on us, cozying up to the spy apparatus in every country
| they do business in...
|
| How dare anyone throw rocks at an open source effort?
|
| I don't even like JavaScript, but I applaud what these folks
| are trying to do.
|
| At least they're trying.
|
| Can't even get a decent round of applause.
| gkoberger wrote:
| Yeah, I was being nice, but this writer upset me. He sees
| Ryan Dahl as Nero, but he's a lot closer to Robin Hood.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| If Robin Hood was CEO presiding over a hierarchy of wage
| workers, with VC backing to shoot for unicorn status
| gkoberger wrote:
| He may have the same title, but he's way closer to an
| engineer than Elon/Bezos/etc.
|
| My analogy was taking VC money and using it to build an
| open source tool.
| saghm wrote:
| > We live in a land of goddamned hyperscalers and megacorps
| trying to minimize how much they pay us (or get rid of us).
| Trillion dollar Zeuses that skirt by antitrust regulations
| for decades on end, crushing any would-be competition.
| Pilfering from open source while encrusting it in proprietary
| systems that cost an arm and a leg. Destroying the open web,
| turning every channel into an advertising shakedown,
| monitoring us, spying on us, cozying up to the spy apparatus
| in every country they do business in...
|
| > How dare anyone throw rocks at an open source effort?
|
| According to the article, Deno raised over $25 million from
| venture capital. Unless you're disputing that, it seems a bit
| disingenuous to criticize corporations but call this an "open
| source effort"
| echelon wrote:
| I'm sick of open source "purism" too.
|
| It's almost all caused by the OSI.
|
| The OSI is owned and operated by the hyperscalers, who
| benefit from this in-fighting and license purity bullshit.
|
| Is the only open source free labor? Some people think so.
|
| Are open core and fair source licenses invalid? Yeah -
| let's make everything BSD/MIT so managed versions can go
| live inside AWS and GCP and make those companies billions,
| while the original authors see limited or no upside.
|
| The fact is - open source needs salients to attack the
| hyperscalers. It needs to pay its engineers. It needs to
| expand and grow. One of the ways to do that is building a
| business around it. Another way is building an open core
| plus services that drive revenue to sustain and grow the
| business.
|
| Having VC money doesn't invalidate what's being done. It
| helps the experiment evolve faster.
|
| Nobody's here complaining about Google and Microsoft and
| Amazon, yet that's where 99.9% of our ire should be
| directed. And yet we're pouring venom on this small and
| valiant effort.
|
| We dump on Redis and Elastic while they're being torn to
| shreds and eaten by trillion dollar giants.
|
| This entire conversation has become perverted to the point
| we're no longer talking about what matters: freedom to
| operate independently of the giants that control the world.
|
| Instead we're complaining about people taking a risk,
| trying to actually do something impactful that matters.
| CrimsonRain wrote:
| OSI is a plague and many people here swear by it blindly.
| They hate the big hyperscalers but play right into their
| arms.
| pjmlp wrote:
| To the point with exception of Emacs, GCC and the Linux
| kernel, we can assert the GPL is dead for most practical
| purposes.
| prmoustache wrote:
| sorry but your post makes no sense.
|
| Open source is a kind of licenses. Hyperscalers are a
| kind of service providers.
|
| You cannot oppose these 2, these are completely unrelated
| concepts.
| echelon wrote:
| That's cute to think that they're unrelated, but open
| source is fundamentally about freedom.
|
| The walls around us are constantly being built up and
| caving in. Hyperscalers are trying to own more and more
| of the commons.
|
| The web is becoming atrophied, search is a sales funnel,
| communication is taxed, we're about to be asked to use ID
| to use the Internet, ... everything is being stolen from
| us.
|
| The two could not possibly be more related.
| verdverm wrote:
| > calling out Ryan directly for some reason
|
| Accountability starts and stops at the top. Many CEOs (CxOs)
| get called out. Personally, I want to write something similar
| about Bluesky leadership, who have fumbled hard multiple times
| since peaking, and have now "raised funding" from Bain Capital
| (private equity).
| phpnode wrote:
| These things are easy to say but just because someone has the
| title CEO doesn't mean they're automatically void of human
| feelings. I'm sure you understand there's a big gap between a
| Ryan Dahl and a Satya Nadella, despite them sharing the same
| job title.
| verdverm wrote:
| > void of human feelings
|
| What if we reframe this about how the CEO treats their
| users and employees? Why does Ryan deserve to be free from
| criticism?
| phpnode wrote:
| Do you have any special insight here or are you
| speculating? I'm not saying that he should be free from
| criticism, but that we should try and have some empathy
| for people who try things even if they fail, particularly
| when they've offered their services to the community for
| free for the last 5+ years (much longer when considering
| node.js)
| verdverm wrote:
| > Do you have any special insight here or are you
| speculating?
|
| I'm trying to understand why you carve an exception for
| this one individual.
|
| When I worked in restaurants, the owner and I had a very
| interesting conversation after hours, and with beers,
| about his thoughts and feelings being responsible for the
| well being and livelihood of everyone that worked there.
| It was a positive moment, I thought I had a great boss, I
| work my ass off for him.
|
| A year later I found he was trimming hours off of my
| paycheck. I quit on the spot. Months later I heard he did
| the same to the waitstaff tips and it wasn't much longer
| before it all fell apart.
|
| People can appear very different publicly than privately,
| and they can change over time.
| abnercoimbre wrote:
| The reverse is true: asshole bosses who do right by
| workers quietly. Sometimes they're public assholes and
| privately terrible though. But sometimes (perhaps very
| rarely) they're openly caring AND do the right thing
| behind curtains.
|
| I'm not saying anything groundbreaking here. Humanity is
| complex and varied.
| atherton94027 wrote:
| Well the people who get laid off also have feelings, not
| sure why we should care more about the ceo's feelings so
| much that we shouldn't criticize them
| phpnode wrote:
| I'm not saying that we should care more for the CEO, but
| that we should have empathy for someone who is,
| ultimately, an engineer who built something and gave it
| away for free, watched everyone else around him get rich
| off the back of his hard work, and then tried to do
| something worthwhile again _and still chose to give it
| away for free_. There 's a lot of immoral CEOs out there,
| I'm yet to see evidence that Dahl is one of them.
| verdverm wrote:
| > There's a lot of immoral CEOs out there, I'm yet to see
| evidence that Dahl is one of them.
|
| I don't see any such claim in the post. The criticism is
| about Ryan the CEO, not Ryan the person.
|
| Besides the title, from the end of the post:
|
| > I'm not trying to hate on Dahl but c'mon bro you're the
| CEO. What's next for Deno? Give ~me~ ~users~ anyone a
| reason to care.
|
| Perhaps you know Ryan and read too much into the
| criticism?
| ixtli wrote:
| its so strange to see so many people who will never be handed
| 5 million dollars to write a vm jumping in front of criticism
| for one guy that did. sorry but when you become a public
| figure in this way you should _expect_ to be subjected to a
| different sort of public scrutiny than, say, a rank and file
| employee who they pay.
|
| i will begin to care about a CEOs feelings when they put the
| wellbeing of their employees before their own. not saying
| that the Deno CEO has done anything on the order of the raw
| aggression we see from other CEOs in our industry but, as
| they say, if you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
| phpnode wrote:
| Agreed. It is very easy to criticise if you've never been in
| the hot seat, and if you've never had to make tough decisions
| like this. As far as I can tell this person has never run a
| business with actual employees.
|
| If Dahl had posted the typical layoff announcement people would
| be criticising that too.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| Agreed. I was skeptical of Deno and I think their package
| management story was a mistake. But the people were still
| trying to make JavaScript better and doing so out of genuine
| love for the language. I especially feel for the employees who
| put in several years of their life, with the resulting
| opportunity cost.
| evbogue wrote:
| Agreed about the article tone. I'm a Deno lifer over here, and
| will definitely not try to cover up the mistakes they've made
| along the way or the trouble their deploy product has had over
| the past few months. Ryan Dahl is obviously polarizing as a
| personality for many people, always has been since he decided
| to "hate almost all software" or even before that when he
| created Node.js.
|
| I don't use Fresh. Serverless is kind of a weird offering that
| forces developers to do a lot of work to adjust their programs
| to running all over the place. I even wish Deno had never
| supported NPM because that ruined their differentiator.
|
| I'm going to keep using Deno and I hope they use this
| opportunity to refocus on their core product offering so that I
| can move back to using it from this VPS that is hosting all of
| my Deno servers right now.
| KyleJune wrote:
| I'm planning on using Deno long term too and have also made
| some contributions to their standard library. But I
| completely disagree with you on NPM support. I think that gap
| early on contributed to bun's success. I almost quit using it
| because of how difficult it was to use react with Deno. Now
| it's pretty easy to use react and other npm packages with
| Deno. Before that, a lot of the most popular packages were
| just forks of npm packages adapted for Deno, but not as well
| maintained since less people were using them. Then deduping
| dependencies was just harder when they were all urls. If your
| package had a dependency using a different version url, you'd
| need an import map just to remap them all to using the same
| version. I'm pretty happy with the current deno.json with jsr
| and npm compatibility.
| evbogue wrote:
| As an early Deno purist I must invoke the 10 Mistakes talk
| that Ryan gave when he launched Deno: https://m.youtube.com
| /watch?v=M3BM9TB-8yA&t=11s&pp=ygUScnlhb...
| afavour wrote:
| As someone who has mostly just tinkered with this stuff
| (while using Node extensively at work) I see two truths:
|
| - Deno initially seemed like something a number of us were
| clamouring for: a restart of the server JS ecosystem. ES
| modules from the start, more sensibly thought out and
| browser compatible APIs, etc etc
|
| - that restart is incompatible with the business goals of a
| VC funded startup. They needed NPM compatibility but that
| destroyed the chances of a restart happening.
|
| I'm just sticking with Node. I know Deno and Bun are faster
| and have a few good features (though Node has been cribbing
| from them extensively as time has gone on). I just don't
| trust a VC backed runtime to keep velocity in the long
| term.
| ameliaquining wrote:
| Would something else that wasn't a VC-funded startup
| really work better? The technical problem seems
| fundamental.
| afavour wrote:
| Yes, the technical problem is fundamental. But if Deno
| managed to be a truly great runtime that solved a lot of
| people's gripes with Node _and_ made ES modules etc the
| price of admission for using it there would have been
| momentum to create a new module ecosystem.
|
| But once you add that NPM compatibility layer the
| incentives shift, it just isn't worth anyone's while to
| create new, modern modules when the old ones work well
| enough.
|
| It all feels similar to the Python 2 vs 3 dilemma. They
| went the other way and hey, it was a years long quagmire.
| But the ecosystem came out of it in a much better place
| in the end.
| josephg wrote:
| Personally I've moved to bun. Its basically identical to
| node out of the box - almost all nodejs projects just
| work. But its usually faster. And it can run typescript
| files directly. And it has a JS bundler & minifier built
| in. And it can --watch for changes.
|
| I hope nodejs copies these features. They're great.
| dangoodmanUT wrote:
| Yeah, on top of that bringing in social media politics into it
| is weird, makes it hard to take this as pure/useful criticism
| colesantiago wrote:
| Some businesses don't need to be VC backed though.
|
| That is the problem.
| gkoberger wrote:
| Agreed. But building something new takes capital, and it's
| really hard to find it for an open source tool.
|
| FWIW, it worked for Bun (at least for the VCs and employees),
| so there is a model there that works.
| Aldipower wrote:
| True! Love to Ryan from my heart. He came around the corner
| with Node just in the right moment when ActionScript3 started
| to die and I seamlessly could continue my career and building
| things. Still to today.. Things with Deno are very ambitious
| and hard to establish in this space. The blog post is
| embarrassing.
| pjmlp wrote:
| JavaScript on the server goes all the way back to Netscape
| days with LiveWire.
| Aldipower wrote:
| Yes, I have a SGI Indigo2 with NetScape FastTrack with
| server-side JavaScript running in my basement! But it is
| not the same as Node though. ;-)
|
| I am selling it btw! Look at the CRT-screenshots. :-)
| https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/sgi-indigo-2-mit-
| nets...
| pjmlp wrote:
| Oh man, it is really cool, hope it gets a nice new owner.
| bombcar wrote:
| I'm just annoyed that decimation would be a 10% layoff;
| standard if even weak-sauce these days. Too many people use
| "kill one in ten" to mean "kill them all, let God sort it out."
| ajkjk wrote:
| at a practical level that word hasn't meant "one in ten" for
| like, decades. probably just need to get used to it.
| piva00 wrote:
| Semantic drift has always happened and will always happen in
| languages.
|
| Decimation has been commonly used as a synonym for absolute
| destruction for a long time, being annoyed by it is wasted
| energy, better to let it go and accept the new meaning.
| fuzzy_biscuit wrote:
| Etymology is not usage though. I get where you're coming
| from, but fighting vernacular is all but useless outside of
| academia.
| Leszek wrote:
| Be careful to check whether you're in a glass house before
| throwing stones - "layoff" used to mean a temporary release
| from employment for seasonal labour before it meant a
| permanent one (https://www.etymonline.com/word/layoff).
| "Standard" as an adjective also used to mean "being held to a
| standard of excellence" rather than "normal" or "average".
| It's ok for words to change meaning over time.
| nslsm wrote:
| Given the footer of the blog I'm not surprised the author
| really enjoys the smell of his own farts.
| totallymike wrote:
| I'm confused. What about the footer are you referring to?
| nine_k wrote:
| Is there a good example of an Open Source project that was born
| out of VC money? Not a failed attempt of hockey-stick growth
| that open-sources its code upon shutting down commercial
| operation, but a genuinely healthy FOSS project that started as
| a VC-funded company, and still is going strong?
|
| In my opinion, FOSS and VC have opposite goals and attitudes:
| openness, organic growth, staying free vs moat, meteoric growth
| fueled by marketing, turning a huge profit. I don't see how
| they could be compatible in the long term, unless the FOSS
| project is a gateway drug into a proprietary ecosystem.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| I'm not fully convinced that there's a tenable model for open
| source devtool companies. Usually there's some handwavy plan to
| do hosting or code quality that never comes to fruition. Hosting
| is a hard business and the 800 pound gorilla in the room of AWS
| is even harder to surmount. Otherwise, I'm not sure what business
| model you can look towards. Support maybe?
| phpnode wrote:
| People want open source software, but they do not want the
| compromises that come with funding it. When people try and fail
| then you get shitty blog posts like this one. It's sheer
| entitlement. I think the days of building open source tooling
| and expecting to be able to commercialise it are now completely
| gone.
| georgemcbay wrote:
| > Support maybe?
|
| LLMs seem likely to kill or at least vastly weaken the support
| model.
| anon7000 wrote:
| Yeah, I mean Deno's success is predicated on enterprises moving
| production apps from NodeJS to Deno. Node is extremely
| established and entrenched, and migrating the goddamn runtime
| of a large production server is not usually an easy project. If
| I have a 5-10 year old Node project, it _might_ work well on
| Deno, but almost no one has the time to champion a migration
| when it just doesn't have that many benefits.
|
| Yes, it comes with batteries included, but a big node project
| already has setups handling things like testing, linting,
| formatting, and dependencies. Moving to Deno for any of those
| _might_ actually be easy, but migrations in the JS ecosystem
| never end up being easy, so people who could sway the company
| to change tools don't have the appetite to tell leadership
| about migration projects with minimal upside and unknown
| duration. And under a startup with an unknown future.
|
| NodeJS succeeded at undermining existing server toolchains,
| because web devs were easily sold on writing JS for their
| servers, so tons of successful startups built with Node, and
| when Node got pretty well established, it was easier to adopt
| for greenfield projects in the enterprise.
|
| Deno is Node, but better. So it's not giving a whole market of
| devs access to a tool that is way easier to write for. It's
| marginally easier to manage and you could maybe drop some other
| toolchain dependencies. But again, those toolchain things are
| automated/hidden away from developers directly... like they
| don't care we use eslint, they just care CI catches problems
| before they hit prod and that the linter throws an error early
| in the process. It's already easy for them to run locally. So
| it's not like Deno lint changes anything about the dev user
| experience, it just changes what DevOps/platform teams have to
| manage.
| jcheng wrote:
| Open core can work, but you really have to find very strong
| product market fit on the proprietary side--ideally with
| features that discriminate between users who are relatively
| happy to pay and users who are not. (There's a reason "SSO tax"
| is so common.)
|
| And you really have to believe in open source and have the
| discipline to keep investing in it, otherwise the temptation is
| ever present to throw more and more effort and resources into
| the proprietary parts.
| Analemma_ wrote:
| "Become integral enough to the toolchain at OpenAI or Anthropic
| that they buy you" seems like the new one. Normally I dislike
| startups built with the intention to be acquihired instead of
| being a sustainable business, but with open source devtools
| maybe that's not the worst thing. I'm pretty confident that
| neither bun nor uv will stop existing anytime soon, and the
| makers got paydays out of it.
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| > What's next for Deno?
|
| Who cares? Why does the world need so many fringe tools/runtimes?
| So much fragmentation. Why does every project have to be a long-
| term success? Put some stuff out if its misery. Don't waste the
| time of the already few open-source contributors who pour hours
| into something for no good reason.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Deno is much more than a fringe tool. It's a genuine
| improvement in many ways.
| MuffinFlavored wrote:
| The world doesn't need a dozen JS runtimes.
|
| The world doesn't need a dozen JS engines.
|
| The world doesn't need many dozens of Linux distros.
|
| The world doesn't need a handful of BSD distros.
|
| The world doesn't need many dozens of package managers.
|
| The world doesn't need hundreds of JS frameworks.
|
| The world doesn't need dozens of programming languages or
| chat protocols or CI/CD systems.
|
| The world doesn't need dozens of init systems, service
| managers, display servers, audio stacks, universal app
| formats, build tools/bundlers.
|
| Deno may have dragged the JS runtime space forward, fully
| agree. Maybe it served its purpose and it is time to say
| goodbye.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| If Deno moved things forward, doesn't that suggest that we
| do need efforts like this to support ongoing progress?
| There doesn't seem to be strong evidence to the contrary in
| the JS ecosystem.
| balamatom wrote:
| The world doesn't need so many people or anything they have
| to offer it.
| balamatom wrote:
| I'd argue that the mainstream, lowest-common-denominator tools
| are the ones which waste people's time. (Especially when
| they're backed by an incumbent. Deno, on the other hand,
| clicked immediately.)
| mohsen1 wrote:
| Why this person is so mean to someone who gifted Deno and Node to
| the JS ecosystem? It's not fair. They are trying to build a
| company on top of open source.
| shimman wrote:
| Because the model of private capital using open source to make
| profits is a failure state that we need to get away from.
| There's no reason why the government can't sponsor open source
| projects, something tells me the vast majority of open source
| devs wouldn't mind a system where grants can be reward to
| projects that the public finds valuable.
|
| That would be much more sustainable than VC rat fucking the
| commons to make a buck while suckering in devs that were once
| good community stewards into dry husks that are only formed to
| generate profit.
| phpnode wrote:
| Ok but those government grants don't really exist today and
| what you're arguing for is zero sustainability for open
| source projects. This is certain to lead to the death of open
| source - there's not even the reputational pay-off any more
| if the only real consumer is AI.
| shimman wrote:
| ah yes the common rebuttal of "but this doesn't exists, so
| I want the boot to keep stomping on my face. Please don't
| do anything different! The boot is kinda nice actually now
| that I sustained enough nerve damage."
|
| Grants are a very effective model of support, it seems to
| work for entire industries + professions around the world.
| Even better when there is a body of professionals working
| democratically to decide which people should be awarded the
| grants.
|
| Just because you have a failure of imagination doesn't mean
| others do.
| phpnode wrote:
| Bad faith reply. The government grants do not exist, it's
| not a failure of imagination, I too would like to live in
| that world, but we don't and aren't likely to any time
| soon. And even if we did, do you think that Deno would
| have been likely to receive a grant? I do not.
| verdverm wrote:
| Ideally, the corporations that get immeasurable benefits from
| open source are a better source for the money. There are
| multiple ways this can play out, direct payments, putting
| employees on the project, or contributing their own projects
| to benefit others.
| furyofantares wrote:
| > I wanted to know if the hundreds of hours I'd spent mastering
| Deno was a sunk cost. Do I continue building for the runtime, or
| go back to Node?
|
| I assume the author is aware that Ryan Dahl created that too?
|
| Not that it would make him immune to criticism, but the author
| comes off extremely petty.
| 0x1ceb00da wrote:
| They should call the next js runtime "done"
| verdverm wrote:
| I have migrated away from NextJS for similar reasons of being
| too special case in the ecosystem. Next in particular is
| designed for the way Vercel runs applications and comes with
| extra pain if you don't run on edge. (see middleware as an
| example, I think they renamed it since I left)
| hmokiguess wrote:
| I could get behind some of this hate directed to Vercel's CEO or
| even Cursor's, but Deno is sort of like a breath of fresh air
| around the myriad of parasitic tech out there. Still, why so much
| hate? Who hurt you? What's going on
| colesantiago wrote:
| As soon as Deno took money from Sequoia, this was bound to
| happen.
|
| So here is what is going to happen:
|
| Deno is going to 100% get acquired.
|
| Ryan Dahl is obviously rare talent and any company that gets Ryan
| would be incredibly lucky.
|
| He has already done a Google Brain Residency so it makes sense
| for him to go to OpenAI or another AI lab for developing AI
| agents.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47426659
| mattvr wrote:
| Deno Deploy is actually an excellent product.
|
| My choice ranking is Deno Deploy > Fly.io > AWS for new projects,
| depending on complexity and needs. They also have a new Deno
| sandbox feature which is great for running untrusted code, AI
| agents, etc.
|
| The real question is can they adapt to customer feedback fast
| enough, focus priorities, adequately market & grow, make it
| profitable, etc. Bumpy road but definitely not doomed.
|
| [0] https://deno.com/deploy
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| I was surprised by the tone about deploy in the blog post too.
| I think it's excellent. I use it for anything new that uses
| TypeScript.
| Raed667 wrote:
| My prediction for 2023 is 2 out 3 (so far)
|
| > Despite the initial hype, Rome tools, Deno & Bun will be quasi
| abandoned as the ecosystem outpaces their release cycle and the
| benefits don't merit the headache of migration.
|
| https://blog.raed.dev/posts/predictions_2023
| teg4n_ wrote:
| Rome tools is now Biome and Biome is really good. The company
| didn't work out but the tool itself is better than ever.
| morphology wrote:
| I defaulted to Biome for all greenfield projects a year ago,
| and at this point you would have to drag me kicking and
| screaming back to ESLint and Prettier. I also defaulted to Bun
| and still think Bun is leagues better than Node.js but I now
| have my doubts about its future after seeing the OpenCode devs
| consciously minimize their dependency on Bun for strategic
| reasons.
| pier25 wrote:
| Deno hasn't been abandoned though. The company still survives.
| These layoffs are probably to focus resources on the runtime
| and subhosting product.
|
| Bun is in much better shape than it was in 2023 and its future
| is less uncertain today than it was back then.
| neom wrote:
| I won't speak for Ryan, but these last 7/8 months have been extra
| extra hard for me with Mikeal dying, and at least, Ryan was as
| close to Mikeal as I was, so I'd guess it's been a hard time for
| him too. Being ambitious and taking on a lot is always... a lot,
| and he's been at it with Oracle as well. It doesn't get any
| easier the older you get, to be honest. Cut him some slack eh?
| pjmlp wrote:
| Oracle looks to me a distraction, that isn't what is going to
| bring users into Deno.
|
| For the rest, I can't comment on, all the best.
| neom wrote:
| Thanks. Sure, it may have indeed become a distraction, maybe
| it always was... I don't know. Never the less, he is
| finishing what he started, and that is admirable.
| https://dev.ua/en/news/tvorets-nodejs-zbyraie-1758280906 -
| https://www.devclass.com/development/2022/09/05/nodejs-
| creat...
| latchkey wrote:
| RIP Mikeal. I'm sorry for your loss.
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _I won 't speak for Ryan... Mikeal dying_
|
| For those out of loop: https://github.com/mikeal/cancer-diaries
|
| Ryan tweeted he was "crushed" when Mikael died:
| https://x.com/rough__sea/status/1932667147605717130
| jeremyscanvic wrote:
| Like other commenters the tone of this post threw me off but I
| was really impressed by the design of the website. Congrats for
| building it, it shows your hard work and taste!
| dgreensp wrote:
| I find the irreverent tone refreshing, personally.
|
| As a founder who built all my prototypes and side projects on
| Deno for two years, I personally think Deno's execution was just
| horrible, and avoidably so. Head-scratchingly, bafflingly bad
| decision-making.
|
| I was the first engineering hire at Meteor (2012-2016), and we
| made the mistake of thinking we could reinvent the whole app
| development ecosystem, and make money at it, so I have the
| benefit of that experience, but it is not really rocket science
| or some insight that I wouldn't expect Ryan Dahl and team to
| have, in the 2020s.
|
| They were stretched thin with too many projects, which they were
| always neglecting or rewriting, without a solid business case.
| They coupled together runtime, framework, linting, docs, hosting,
| and packaging, with almost all of these components being inferior
| to the usual tools. The package system became an absolute
| nightmare.
|
| If the goal was to eventually replace Node and NPM with something
| where TypeScript was first-class, there was better security, etc,
| they could have done a classic "embrace and extend."
| thinkingkong wrote:
| It's easy to be critical in hindsight but honestly when Deno
| first came out it was pretty incredible. Even the whole idea
| about URL based imports makes lots of sense but it was
| incompatible with any of the existing toolchains that were wildly
| popular. At the same time, companies like Vercel launched a new
| kind of framework and leveraged that into a hosting business with
| I would say great success. They captured developers where they
| were at _today_, including acknowledging the demographics, the
| tools, the culture, etc.
| skybrian wrote:
| Compatibility aside, Url-based imports are a bad idea as soon
| as you go beyond writing your entire program in a single source
| file and want to keep imported versions of common dependencies
| in sync. It's nice for scripts, but a deno.json file is better.
| mrcwinn wrote:
| What nonsense. Does it count as a "clapback" when the CEO
| responds sensibly and takes responsibility? This is just
| pointless snark.
| zoogeny wrote:
| I have always wanted Deno to succeed. But it just seems to be too
| full of contradictions.
|
| Their initial baffling stance about package.json was the first
| bad sign. I almost can't imagine the hubris of expecting devs to
| abandon such a large eco-system of packages by not striving for
| 100% support out of the gate. Of course they had to relent, but
| honestly the damage was done. They chose ideology over
| practicality and that doesn't bode well with devs.
|
| I think they saw Rust and thought that devs were willing to
| abandon C++ for a language that was more modern and secure. By
| touting these same benefits perhaps they were hoping for similar
| sentiment from the JavaScript community.
|
| Deno has some really good ideas (e.g. the library KV interface).
| I agree with a lot (but not all) of Dahl's vision. But the whole
| thing is just a bit too quirky for me to invest anything critical
| into an ecosystem that is one funding round away from
| disappearing completely.
| Sophira wrote:
| Before yt-dlp started recommending Deno as its JavaScript
| runtime, I had no idea it even existed.
|
| Since then, I know that it's there and that it's more secure than
| Node in some applications, and I can see using it being a good
| option. But it sounds like it might be too little too late? Going
| by this article, at least.
| cluckindan wrote:
| yt-dlp was definitely the reason for the increased adoption
| mentioned in the post.
|
| I wonder if the layoffs have a deeper connection to yt-dlp.
| muppetman wrote:
| Same, I remember googling Deno and going "Oh this new thing
| looks neat" - and then I haven't heard/seen/read a thing about
| it until this post. But I keep hearing about Bun and of course
| nodejs.
|
| Feel bad for them, they obviously just didn't capture a real
| userbase. I expect if yt-dlp hadn't started to require it
| they'd have just silently flamed out.
| fnord77 wrote:
| > The harsh truth is that Deno's offerings have failed to capture
| developers' attention. I can't pretend to know why -- I was a
| fanboy myself -- but far too few devs care about Deno.
|
| I never heard of Deno until today. So perhaps this was a
| marketing failure.
| IshKebab wrote:
| I really hope this is premature because Deno is easily the best
| thing to happen to the JS/TS ecosystem in years.
|
| I agree with all the comments saying this is unnecessarily
| critical. We're getting an amazing tool totally for free. Quit
| complaining.
|
| I would not be surprised if they get bought by one of the big AI
| players anyway, given the weird purchases of Bun and Astral.
| hedayet wrote:
| > Idle speculation has led to baseless rumours of an OpenAI
| acquisition. I'm not convinced that makes sense but neither does
| the entire AI industry.
|
| hmm, blog author doesn't know about Anthropic's Bun acquisition,
| and consequently shouldn't comment on "the entire AI industry"
| hollowturtle wrote:
| I had the feeling something wasn't going well as soon as the AI
| pivoting. My guess was that for Ryan being acquired like Bun was
| might have been the only road available
| ashwinnair99 wrote:
| Deno always felt like something built for the right reasons but
| at the wrong time. Good tech losing isn't new, it's just always a
| bit sad when it happens slowly.
| Chyzwar wrote:
| No, they made many wrong architecture decisions that made it
| fringe project rather than mainstream. You could glimpse on how
| things could played out by looking into bun.js adoption.
| pragmatic wrote:
| Is Deno a classic second system syndrome project?
|
| Seems so. All the breaks from the first system in the name of
| "we're doing it right this time" probably killed the momentum.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
|
| Even the best and brightest of us are still human.
| babaganoosh89 wrote:
| Truth of the matter is Ryan Dahl is a suboptimal CEO. Being able
| to build good open source software does not have a strong
| correlation with being able to build a successful business.
| paxys wrote:
| > I wanted to know if the hundreds of hours I'd spent mastering
| Deno was a sunk cost
|
| _Hundreds_ of hours? I 'm sorry but if you truly needed that
| much time to find your way around an incredibly straightforward
| runtime that's on you. Skills for Deno, Node.js, Bun, Cloudflare
| Workers, browser-based JS and all the rest are like 99%
| transferable. If Deno doesn't work for you then use something
| else. It would probably be simpler to switch than writing all
| these aggressive blog posts.
| balamatom wrote:
| The one that wasted me hundreds of hours was TypeScript on Node
| with ESM. The most common, familiar, boring stuff which
| everyone is intimately familiar with, right?
|
| Got shanghaied into TS-land right around Node 16 when they and
| TypeScript imposed mutually incompatible handling of ESM
| modules (that extensions mess).
|
| Not only the type checker fail to understand of the kind of JS
| I had been shipping (and testing, and documenting, and
| communicating) up to that point; both the immediate toolchain,
| and _people 's whole pattern language around the toolset_, were
| entirely broken as soon as you were doing anything different
| from the kind of React.js that later became Vercel.
|
| Not only I was able to do 10% of what I was able to do
| previously conditional on jury-rigging the billion dollar stack
| to work, I also had a little cadre of happy campers on my ass
| blatantly gaslighting me that it is all, in fact, working; and
| suggesting the most inane "solutions" once I'd bent over
| backwards to demonstrate how there is, indeed, a problem of
| absurd dimensions, straight outta nowhere.
|
| Later I met more such people. Same people who would insist JS
| runtimes are not trivially interchangeable, having committed to
| not examine what they're doing beyond a meager level of
| abstraction.
|
| I see it as a rather perverse form of "working to spec" (have
| had to pick up surreal amounts of slack after such characters),
| but with incentives being what they are you get a cutthroat
| environment (such as the author of this blog post imagines to
| be living in), and from a cutthroat environment you get the
| LLMs eating everyone's breakfasts -- because no matter how
| yucky a word "synergy" is, synergizin' is that "fake open
| source" is designed to preclude, throughout the JS ecosystem.
|
| "Fake open source" is how I call MIT/BSD licensed devtools and
| frameworks from hyperscalers that don't need to do an opencore
| rugpull because they're a piece of a long-term ecosystem
| strategy. They benefit from immense decade-long marketing and
| astroturfing efforts, lending them "default status" in the
| mindshare; and ultimately serve to carry the vendor's preferred
| version of reality into unrelated downstream projects. Which is
| why they often spectacularly fail to respond to the community's
| needs: they are built to preclude, past a certain point, the
| empowerment of implementors as a community.
|
| Mastering some of that _shit_ , now there was a sunk cost for
| me, but in modern JS land all these churning agglomerations
| play the role of "pay to play" gatekeepers. Considering what
| that's made the playing field be like, I'm happy pivoting to
| more niche technology just to keep away from said churning
| agglomerations.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| I was really into Deno until it went all-in on nodejs
| compatibility (like Bun).
|
| At that point I was left wondering -- if Bun and Deno have
| essentially the same strategy/approach, why would I pick the less
| mature option?
|
| And so I ported everything to Bun
| ozten wrote:
| For me Bun's dramatic entrance and the a lack of any Deno
| response that reached my attention effectively evaporated any
| interest I would have in switching my runtime. I'm already set
| with my tooling and hosting.
| nektro wrote:
| i did not interpret this article as hate. this is very sad news
| and OP is being honest about the state of things and failings
| along the way. they even end with a plea that things turn around.
| asim wrote:
| Come on man. This stuff is hard. I was the guy on the other side
| writing these BS hit pieces. Then I raised funding and took a
| shot. It's so hard. It's like pushing a boulder up a mountain
| except you're expected to build a rocket ship on the way and
| blast off. It's not the analogy of falling off a cliff and
| building the rocket on the way down. Sure death is on the horizon
| and you can manage it, but the pressures are immense and so much
| of it you can't game. Initial hype is intoxicating and you might
| even have something of value but real business takes time. It's a
| boulder up a hill and you need to bring a lot of good people
| along the way to help you. OpenAI was 7 years of nothing working
| then boom. I hit 7 years and fatigue set in, but also life, I
| wasn't that same guy who started at 30. Give these people a
| break. Ryan has done great things with Node and Deno. Give him a
| break. Don't stomp on the guy. Give him some kudos. Help him FFS.
| Don't trash him. Shame honestly. Ryan keep up the great work.
| It's hard. Deno team, it's the effort and intention that counts.
| Good work. Regroup, try again.
| scubbo wrote:
| No-one who accepts investor money deserves any sympathy.
| MainlyMortal wrote:
| You're literally on a VC forum.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| The problem Deno faces is that nodejs is "good enough".
|
| Pray you never have a "good enough" competitor.
|
| I felt it should have aimed to be a 100% drop in replacement for
| nodejs then innovated on top of that.
| lloydatkinson wrote:
| I'm starting to think this guys obsession with writing hit pieces
| about Deno is not at all genuine and perhaps he is being paid.
| arikrahman wrote:
| Anthropic's acquisition might prove for the better if their able
| to avoid the same layoff situation.
| jklmnopqrstuvw wrote:
| I think the only real perk of Bun/Deno over Node is that they can
| run .ts directly and have better ES compatibility. I don't need
| Deno's permission system, but it's on by default, so I went with
| Bun.
| pier25 wrote:
| > _Bun has far more bugs and compatibility issues than anyone
| will admit. Node still has too much friction around TypeScript
| and ECMAScript modules._
|
| I only use deps that support Bun like Hono and Drizzle but so far
| my experience has been flawless.
|
| And yeah Node sucks for TS in comparison to Deno or Bun.
| barrrrald wrote:
| Who hurt you?
| pier25 wrote:
| The idea of Deno is brilliant... but they should have either
| focused on Node compat from the first day (like Bun did) or just
| keep doing their own thing with built-in APIs to solve the most
| common needs (db drivers, router, s3, etc).
|
| They had the right ideas but it's like investors panicked midway
| and demanded a change in direction.
| hluska wrote:
| This is an absolutely horrible article. From totally over the top
| comparisons to an absolute lack of substance, this is no more
| than a collection of 'haha me smart' garbage mixed with personal
| attacks.
|
| Drunk sports fans are more coherent than this.
| jaccola wrote:
| The author should be the change they want to see in the world.
| Nothing is stopping them from making an alternative.
| > "I could continue but it would just be cruel to dissect
| further."
|
| in particular really rubbed me the wrong way for 2 reasons:
|
| 1) You acknowledge that you think you've already at least
| bordered on "cruel", why would you want this? It's not clever.
|
| 2) You have the arrogance to think your opinion means this much
| to the creator when they've achieved far more than you.
| MOSI3 wrote:
| "Decimation" is to reduce by a tenth (and typically those being
| reduced would be forced to decide who to lose), so a poor
| comparison to "losing half your staff". If you're going to
| mention its Roman origins, then these details matter.
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