[HN Gopher] A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)
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A Japanese glossary of chopsticks faux pas (2022)
Author : cainxinth
Score : 446 points
Date : 2026-03-20 20:54 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nippon.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nippon.com)
| dibujaleojos wrote:
| Holy cow! I thought there was going to be a list of 8 of them...
| There's like 40!
| Fricken wrote:
| And I thought the Inuit had a lot of words for snow.
|
| I wonder how many of these words a typical Japanese person can
| list off the top of their head.
| cthalupa wrote:
| Interesting. Some of these are big deals (particularly the ones
| mentioned as important) but others I have seen Japanese people in
| Tokyo do quite consistently. Soroebashi - not on the table, but
| I've seen chopsticks aligned by pushing them against the plate
| hundreds of time. I've also seen them used to stir miso soup,
| etc. plenty.
|
| Others I don't know that I would have much of an inclination to
| do and haven't seen but am not sure if it's because it really is
| a faux pas or just because no one else really tends to do it
| either.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| it's like western etiquette: upper class, fine dining
| traditional practices are not what you'll see everyday even
| among polite society. the spectrum of behaviors will also
| depend on one's company.
| fc417fc802 wrote:
| I assume this must be the case here because I'm familiar with
| a lot of different etiquette contexts in the US and I have
| the impression that Japan has far more of that sort of thing
| than we do. Off the top of my head there are ( _at minimum_ )
| the way we were expected to eat in front of my grandparents,
| a more "regular" dinner with the extended family, a small
| gathering at a tex mex joint or chain restaurant or whatever,
| a fast food joint, and whatever slovenly things I do while
| sitting on my couch in private.
|
| Anyone from a particularly wealthy family can probably add an
| additional couple contexts on the high end. Every single one
| of those situations has slightly different "rules" for what's
| acceptable.
| throwup238 wrote:
| And then there's my favorite, the southern seafood boil
| etiquette.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| We have a lot of dining etiquette too if you look into it.
| But it's mostly forgotten and irrelevant high class
| behavior.
| nvader wrote:
| Yep. Two words:
|
| _grape scissors_
| defrost wrote:
| Look here, Bridgerton:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNegQyn-4N8
| jeffbee wrote:
| Yeah? How are you supposed to line up the sticks? And stir the
| soup? I think the "Mawashibashi" faux pas is to whip the soup
| like a madman, or to aimlessly swish it, and the translated
| listicle doesn't convey that.
| 0x3f wrote:
| You could surreptitiously agitate the soup as you pull out
| the solid contents.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Line them up by using your hands. It's simple...
|
| If you must mix soup, there is a spoon, or you simply bring
| it to your lips and it will mix as you tilt and sip from it.
| frereubu wrote:
| I've seen those too. I was going to say that I've seen people
| put the bowl to their mouth and shovel food in with chopsticks,
| but now that I come to think about it that might well actually
| be from the series Tokyo Diner and Takeshi Kitano films, and
| may be deliberately uncouth characterisations...
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Bringing the bowl close to your mouth and picking food up
| from it is proper. Pushing it from the bowl into your mouth
| is impolite but common.
| Umofomia wrote:
| I'm under the impression this is a Chinese vs. Japanese
| difference. Shoveling food into your mouth is perfectly
| acceptable in Chinese etiquette but discouraged in
| Japanese. Accordingly the Japanese cook their rice to clump
| together so it's easier to pick up using your chopsticks so
| that you don't have to resort to shoveling.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Both do, but the moment any sauce gets on the rice it's
| impossible to pick up with chopsticks.
| kleton wrote:
| A lot of culture was lost in the Cultural Revolution
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| I thought it was okay to shovel noodles, but have not heard
| it was okay for rice.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I haven't been specifically informed as to either
| question, but I find that idea surprising, since noodles
| are infinitely easier to pick up with chopsticks than
| rice is.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Maybe it's the "slurp" part that is (surprisingly) okay
| in Japan.
| derefr wrote:
| So what are you expected to do with the last few sauce-
| soaked grains of rice that would at best be able to be
| plucked grain by grain from the bowl, and even then would
| likely slip from between the tips of the chopsticks? Just
| leave them in the bowl?
| anotheryou wrote:
| I vaguely remember something about not finishing
| completely to acknowledge there was enough
| t-3 wrote:
| I've heard that clearing the table of food would be
| considered rude in China, as it means you didn't get
| enough to eat, almost exactly opposite to the only food-
| related rule I was ever taught growing in the US - never
| waste food or serve yourself more than you can eat.
| That's probably just a "my family" thing though. I get
| the impression that even saving leftovers is rare among
| Americans these days.
| jstanley wrote:
| Use a knife and fork
| pndy wrote:
| There's equally complex dining and utensils etiquette in
| Western culture but it's largely omitted (or even unknown) on
| daily basis.
| chasil wrote:
| There is a wiki.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_utensil_etiquette
|
| Edit: The wiki on chopsticks has an etiquette section broken
| down by country.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopsticks#Chopstick_customs,_.
| ..
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| The difference between the American and European styles has
| been used as plot point in fictional works, including the
| 1946 film O.S.S. and the 2014 series Turn: Washington's
| Spies.[5] In both works, using the wrong fork etiquette
| threatens to expose undercover agents.
|
| Nuts. Apparently I have been a German spy all this time. I
| don't have time to waste swapping a fork around.
| mrkandel wrote:
| Tarantino has a bit about it in inglorious bastards.
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| The tell was not related to the cutlery, but counting on
| the fingers.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| American zigzagging utensil acrobatics always seemed like
| a lot of nonsense to me. It looks bad and fiddly.
| pndy wrote:
| You may "enjoy" this
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1VRIEg2Xsw
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm not even sure what the technical etiquite is. As a
| right handed American it just seems more natural to have
| my knife in my right hand but if I'm just using a fork I
| tend to switch that to my right hand. Didn't even think
| about it until right now.
| t-3 wrote:
| I've always just done the cutting at the beginning of the
| meal then set the knife to the side. All of the etiquette
| patterns I've heard about seem wrong to me compared to
| just cut first and then put the knife down.
| jon_richards wrote:
| I was taught that's old American from before knives were
| cheap. Originally you'd pass the knife.
|
| Strange that the wiki implies you set the knife down
| after each cut.
| ghaff wrote:
| Some people do that but it's probably not the norm in
| general.
| jacquesm wrote:
| But can you pronounce 'Scheveningen'?
| danmaz74 wrote:
| Fascinating. The difference of the American style where you
| switch the fork between the left and right hands reminded
| me of a similar difference in fishing gear - where
| Americans (to my understanding) mostly cast with their
| right hand and then switch the rod to their left hand when
| retrieving, while in Europe (or at least in Italy) you
| usually just keep the rod in the right hand instead of
| switching.
| 20k wrote:
| Its always extremely funny reading wikipedia articles about
| a countries customs. For the UK:
|
| >Bread is always served and can be placed on the table
| cloth itself
|
| This is extremely rare, to the point where I can't remember
| the last time I saw it. Is bread really.. always served?
|
| > In the United Kingdom, the fork tines face upward while
| sitting on the table.
|
| Tines down isn't uncommon in the UK either
|
| >if a knife is not needed - such as when eating pasta - the
| fork can be held in the right hand
|
| I mean it can be, but its fairly uncommon
|
| >it is permissible to place a small piece of bread at the
| end of the fork for dipping
|
| Its also 100% fine to dip bread in a sauce with your
| fingers. Putting bread on a fork if you've licked the fork
| and then dipping the bread would cause everyone to hate
| you, so *don't do this*
| bee_rider wrote:
| I suspect people who are motivated enough to contribute
| to the Wikipedia article are a bit over-interested in
| memorizing social rules.
| retsibsi wrote:
| > >if a knife is not needed - such as when eating pasta -
| the fork can be held in the right hand
|
| > I mean it can be, but its fairly uncommon
|
| So the norm is that if you're eating one-handed, you use
| your non-dominant hand? That seems really
| counterintuitive to me; is it because you're so used to
| having the fork in the non-dominant hand that it feels
| awkward the other way? Which hand do you use when eating
| with a spoon?
| 20k wrote:
| Spoons always go in the right hand (eg fork and spoon),
| but yes I'd say people usually use the fork in the non
| dominant hand. Fork in the right hand is slightly
| 'uncouth', possibly due to its american associations
| pja wrote:
| > Is bread really.. always served?
|
| At any kind of formal dining? Yes, absolutely, I would
| expect there to be a bread roll & a pat of butter served
| at the beginning of the meal. Both in restaurants &
| formal dinners in my experience.
|
| It's not an absolute rule though & you generally wouldn't
| expect bread to be served like this at home in the UK. I
| think the French are more likely to serve bread at home
| as well.
| implements wrote:
| I'm right handed, but eat with the fork in my right hand
| and knife in the left.
|
| Is the issue that people have difficulty cutting with their
| left hand? Because if you can the process of eating is
| pretty efficient: hold with fork, cut with knife, move food
| on fork to mouth ...
| krs_ wrote:
| I'm in Europe and I did the same as a child because it
| just felt the most natural. But you better believe our
| teachers in school would try to force the opposite. The
| argument was that imagine if everyone cuts with their
| right hand, but then you cut with your left and cause a
| lot of annoyance by bumping your elbow info your table
| neighbor's elbow.
|
| Absolutely a non-issue in reality obviously. But nowadays
| I do hold my cutlery "properly" as a result. To me it now
| feels natural to bring the fork to my mouth with the left
| hand. Or the right one, really, but I default to holding
| it in the left.
| implements wrote:
| Ahh! Yeah, my teachers were equally unimpressed - but
| none of them gave the argument you mentioned, which could
| at least be understood (like elbows on tables).
| laughing_man wrote:
| Yes! Hardly anyone knows it all, and even people who know the
| basics adjust their behavior based on the situation. Eating
| out with your high school buddies requires a different level
| of observance than the dinner at which your girlfriend is
| introducing you to her parents.
| maxerickson wrote:
| That's not really a coherent statement.
|
| If people don't even know it, it's not part of the culture.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| Who are the "people" that you are referring to?
|
| This makes total sense to me. There is no monolithic
| "culture"-- there are multiple related cultures, differing
| little in essence but differing greatly in the details. And
| each individual is usually only partially ignorant anyway.
|
| Culture changes, too, and asymmetrically. So the "done
| thing" may be done be very few anymore.
| maxerickson wrote:
| I guess I was talking about the people that don't know
| about the culture you guys say they are part of.
| dxdm wrote:
| For some reason, you're reading things into the original
| statement that are not there. "An etiquette exists in a
| culture" does not mean everyone has to follow or even be
| aware of it.
| maxerickson wrote:
| I would say I'm accurately reading "Western culture" as a
| nonsensical concept.
|
| Add an s and it gets a little better.
| dxdm wrote:
| If mentally adding an "s" to the original comment enables
| you move past this issue and actually consider the
| comment as it was intended, then I would say that is well
| done and worth the effort to get to this point. :) Have a
| great Sunday!
| retsibsi wrote:
| Please don't do passive aggression here :(
| dxdm wrote:
| Yeah, I see the problem. It's not a good way to convey
| what I was trying to say. Thanks for calling it out.
| maxerickson wrote:
| _consider the comment as it was intended_
|
| What do you think "reading" means?
| anal_reactor wrote:
| I feel like there was a brief period when middle class came
| to existence and started mimicking customs of the upper
| class, which were very complicated because the upper class
| was mostly bored and had invented this shit to kill the
| time. Then two things happened:
|
| 1. Upper class stopped being formal because formality
| stopped being a signal of upper class.
|
| 2. Middle class stopped having social gatherings in
| general.
|
| So, like, "it is a part of the culture" in the same sense
| as traditional outfits are a part of the culture - most
| people have very vague awareness, nobody really cares.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| > invented this shit to kill the time
|
| This is unnecessarily flippant, trivializing, and
| reductive.
|
| The upper classes had the time and position to refine
| manners. I think one mistake people make is to think
| manners are arbitrary nonsense. But manners, when
| fitting, honor the self and others with conduct that
| suits the dignity of the human person and functions as a
| sign of that dignity. You cannot tell me that a man
| hunched over a table cramming food down his throat gaping
| at a television is no different than one who eats
| according to the above custom of etiquette.
|
| I'm not one for stiff artifice especially when slavishly
| applied, but I don't think manners as such are arbitrary.
| That nobody cares would explain why so many people look
| like slobs and behave like boors.
|
| If we begin with human nature and then view the virtues
| as perfections that actualize the fullness of that
| nature, then it becomes clearer that some behavior is
| more fitting and honored better by certain practices.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| > when fitting
|
| This phrase is doing a lot of heavy lifting, because what
| one considers basic etiquette another considers a
| theatre. The end result is often that people gather in
| order to perform the spectacle of manners rather than use
| manners to facilitate a social gathering.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| One of the true markers of being upper class is that you
| can get away with literal atrocities (see Epstein and co)
| as long as you're discrete enough and/or polished enough
| when talking to underlings and wannabes.
|
| The upper classes in the UK regularly practice tone
| policing, where legitimate dissent is waved away as
| uncouth, even though what they say and do is far worse in
| private, and sometimes in public.
|
| If you're looking for human dignity, I don't think this
| is its natural home.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Exactly. The Royal formerly known as Prince Andrew for
| sure knew how to use his fork properly.
| rvba wrote:
| Is is also topic od relevance.
|
| Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to those in
| Japan, but since the language is difficult to learn and
| frankly speaking nobody cares about Poland, barely anyone
| even knows this.
|
| Also lots of corporations prefer "american style" approach
| of just refering by name (even to the CEO), so this
| dissapears.
|
| Probably could write few pages about this, but nobody would
| care to read.
| pndy wrote:
| I wonder what will become of our honorifics in upcoming
| decades. Our language changes so much under influence of
| English, imported sociopolitical trends that surely made
| some of our bards spin in their graves.
|
| On a side note, I find interesting is that Czech language
| still naturally uses that plural form we abandon due to
| popularity of pan/pani forms.
| apeescape wrote:
| I'm interested in learning more about this! As a Finn I
| love Poland and have been there multiple times (most
| recently just two weeks ago). I don't know the language,
| but details like honorifics reveal interesting tidbits of
| the culture and society. I guess I should prompt an LLM
| about it.
| jech wrote:
| >> Poland has honorifics that are probably on par to
| those in Japan
|
| > I'm interested in learning more about this!
|
| It's very simple, actually.
|
| For strangers, you use the third person and the title <<
| Pan >> or << Pani >> (Sir or Lady). You avoid pronouns,
| << The Lady has forgotten the Lady's purse on the table
| >>.
|
| For friends, you use the t-form ("ty", thou), and use a
| diminutive rather than the full name. << Johny, you've
| forgotten your bag on the table >>.
|
| For work colleagues, you traditionally use << Pan >> or
| << Pani >> with the full form of the first name. <<
| Mister John, the mister's bag is on the table >>. This is
| perceived as old-fashioned, and is increasingly being
| replaced by the t-form.
|
| The v-form has fallen into disuse, as it was promoted by
| the Communist regime.
|
| (The old-fashioned honorifics still exist, but they are
| only used in administrative correspondence: the only time
| when you're "the respectable gentleman" is when you need
| to pay taxes.)
| rvba wrote:
| Calling someone Sir or Madam also exists in English and
| is nothing special.
|
| You left out most of the interesting things.
|
| For example the vocative case is partially dissapearing.
| Someone from Finland can actually understand this topic,
| since Finnish has multiple cases - more than in Polish
| language (meanwhile English has one case and if we try
| very hard we can squeeze something similar to a case - so
| let's say it has two).
| jech wrote:
| > You left out most of the interesting things. For
| example the vocative case is partially dissapearing.
|
| The grammar is changing in many ways (for example, the
| inanimate masculine is being replaced with the animated,
| _kroic kotleta_ ), but this was about honorifics.
| jacquesm wrote:
| In English you can use 'sir' as an insult, which is quite
| creative.
| pndy wrote:
| It's possible in Polish to use "pan" in vocative "panie"
| form with strong vocal emphasis not followed by name or
| last name, to give it more rude sounding - but it won't
| be an insult.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, true, I've heard that, it's like putting emphasis on
| the fact that you want someone to pay attention or
| something like that. A bit like the guy saying 'Sir!' in
| the Blues Brothers restaurant scene but not quite the
| same.
| jech wrote:
| There's nothing more humiliating than a Warsaw taxi
| driver who looks at you as you try to work out how to
| operate the door handle and says "Panie!" with a left-
| bank accent.
| rvba wrote:
| If you are a Fin in Poland and a lot into nerd stuff, in
| Polish language some words are spelled with letters "h"
| and some with "ch" - where both have the same
| pronouciation now, but supposedly 150 years ago there was
| a difference.
|
| Supposedly in Finish language you retained this
| difference and it can be heard in some words e.g. "raha"
| ("money" in Finish?).
|
| Personally I never "heard" it - sounded as a regular "h"
| sound for me.
| lo_zamoyski wrote:
| While historically Polish honorifics are one of the most
| elaborate in Europe because of its noble culture, I
| wouldn't say they are as elaborate as the Japanese, at
| least not in the same manner.
| econ wrote:
| I use to have a routine with a friend where we paid close
| attention to the table manners of his wealthy upper class
| relatives. Then when they did something wrong we would point
| it out loudly as if it was the end of the world. Best was 3+
| mistakes in a row. Bonus points if you can point out the
| mistake and add something like we are not in Belgium!
| cmcaleer wrote:
| I think if you were to do an Osaka version of this, the list
| would be limited to maybe 4 of these (licking, chopsticks
| upright in rice, passing between chopsticks, and pointing esp.
| toward a senior would be taboo).
|
| Whereas when I had a date with a girl from Kyoto, one of the
| first things that happened when we went to eat was she had to
| stop me from picking up my chopsticks impolitely and show me
| the proper way of doing it.
|
| Suffice it to say my Osaka-learned table manners and speech
| patterns meant there was no second date.
| cthalupa wrote:
| It's always wild to me when I hear about how different the
| culture is between Osaka and Kyoto when they're so close.
| cmcaleer wrote:
| I remember being blown away when I was in a Kyoto
| Familymart after a few months of living in Osaka after they
| handed me my fried chicken very delicately with both hands
| like it was a business card!
|
| I guess that's the cultural divide that occurs when one
| community is fishing and trading while the other does,
| like, competitive perfumed calligraphy or whatever.
| vpribish wrote:
| competitive perfumed calligraphic etiquette -- of your
| grandfathers!
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Clearly they also cook and serve fried chicken.
| anthk wrote:
| Similar in Spain between Andalusia doing trades since
| forever across the whole Mediterranean Sea vs the inner
| provinces (the Castille-s) and the chilly Atlantic North
| regions with Celtic/Basque substrates.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I've had people living in the East of Durgerdam explain to
| me that people from the West of Durgerdam were a bit weird.
| For context:
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/place/1026+CD+Durgerdam/@52.379
| 0...
| Xixi wrote:
| I'm not sure I'd put it down entirely to Osaka versus Kyoto.
| My impression is that these things often have at least as
| much to do with upbringing, formality, and social background
| as with region.
|
| I don't know where you're from, so apologies if this is an
| unfair assumption, but in countries like the US or Australia
| people often seem less attuned to social class, whereas in
| places like the UK, France, and indeed Japan, those
| distinctions can carry more weight, even if they almost
| always go unspoken.
| markdown wrote:
| Agreed. Was always taught to never put elbows on the table,
| but as an adult I see people do it everywhere.
| GuestFAUniverse wrote:
| Yeah, as if we still have loose table tops, like in
| medieval times.
| rglullis wrote:
| Seeing people fail to meet a standard does not mean that
| the standard does not exist.
| rkomorn wrote:
| When it comes to manners, I'd say seeing enough people
| fail to meet a standard means it's not a standard, at
| least.
| rglullis wrote:
| No, that's argumentum ad populum.
|
| Mind you, I'm not saying that standards _must_ be
| followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids:
|
| - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist
| doesn't invalidate them
|
| - the reason rules and standards came to existence might
| or might not be applicable to our current context, but
| some people will expect you to follow them regardless.
|
| - If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your
| best attempt at understanding why people would still
| follow it. (Chesterton's fence)
|
| - You are free to not comply to some rules, but always be
| ready to accept the consequences of your decisions.
|
| - What your friends are doing or not doing is not reason
| _enough_ for you to change your behavior or choices.
| YeahThisIsMe wrote:
| But the populus sets the standards. If people decide not
| to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the
| standard.
| rglullis wrote:
| You and I are using different meanings for standard.
| throwthrowuknow wrote:
| then it's a custom or etiquette, not a standard
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| And the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and
| social status.
|
| I had a friend who came from a working class culture
| where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances,
| like whether someone put milk in their tea before or
| after pouring it.
|
| Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant.
| Middle and upper class people had a completely different
| set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less
| obvious displays of wealth - which the working class
| aspirers were oblivious to.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist
| doesn't invalidate them
|
| If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the
| standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only
| thing that defines a standard.
| rglullis wrote:
| Most people in the US use imperial unit, it doesn't mean
| metric doesn't exist.
|
| Standards are not absolutes.
| latexr wrote:
| > the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist
| doesn't invalidate them
|
| But not observing them does. There are standards no one
| in the world follows anymore. They may still "be there",
| but are only used for mocking purposes.
|
| > If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your
| best attempt at understanding why people would still
| follow it. (Chesterton's fence)
|
| The corollary to that is that anyone who rebukes anyone
| else for not following a standard must be able to explain
| why it exists. "Because it's rude" it's not good enough,
| explain _why_ it's considered rude.
| rglullis wrote:
| I don't see anything in your responses that even remotely
| contradict or relate to what I said.
|
| Are you just looking for an argument here?
| technothrasher wrote:
| It seems like you are making a different point than the
| other posters. If the majority of a group does not follow
| an etiquette standard, it is reasonable to say that the
| group does not hold that standard. Your point that if
| _any_ group holds an etiquette standard, then that
| standard exists is true, but is more tangential to the
| other point that a rebuttal of it.
| rglullis wrote:
| > Your point that if any group holds an etiquette
| standard...
|
| Not quite. My original comment was in response to "I see
| people violating rule X anywhere, even though I was told
| it was 'wrong'".
|
| All I am saying is one shouldn't be basing their behavior
| _solely_ on what they see others "getting away with".
| jacquesm wrote:
| What is this, abuse?
| f1shy wrote:
| This is just great way to put it and explain.
| WrongAssumption wrote:
| "Appeals to public opinion are valid in situations where
| consensus is the determining factor for the validity of a
| statement, such as linguistic usage and definitions of
| words."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
| scheme271 wrote:
| I think the deeper question is whose standards and why
| should we consider them the standard?
| rglullis wrote:
| That's the thing with standards: there are so many of
| them to choose from.
|
| You don't have to follow them, but you do you should be
| ready to accept the consequences of your choice.
| bee_rider wrote:
| There are lots of standards, but some contradict one-
| another.
|
| In the area I grew up in, caring too much about useless
| aesthetic stuff like "elbows on the table" would have a
| social cost.
| AdamN wrote:
| Some of them of course are invented whole cloth. British
| Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be
| learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's
| neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate.
| Lio wrote:
| You say "needs to be learned" but that's no more so than
| any other accent.
|
| We just grow up with it because it's how our parents and
| the parents of our friends speak.
|
| If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get
| elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a
| large variety of accents of which RP is one.
| Lio wrote:
| Not sure why this is controversial. RP _is_ just an
| accent like any other now.
|
| I didn't have lessons for it and I don't know anyone else
| that did. It's just how we speak.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| "Received Pronunciation was invented"
|
| How so?
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| RP isn't really a thing any more, except among some of
| the older aristocracy and Tories and a few legacy BBC
| Radio shows.
|
| Most people have settled into Estuary, which has split
| into a high/corporate/media Estuary-tinged dialect, and
| low street Estuary. The BBC has its own special neutral
| version.
|
| Fifty years ago the difference between upper class/BBC/RP
| and street English was almost hilariously obvious. Watch
| a BBC show from the 50s and 60s - even something like Dr
| Who - and everyone is speaking a unique RP dialect that
| doesn't exist any more.
| madaxe_again wrote:
| Idk. I'm in my early 40s, not a Tory, not aristocracy,
| and I speak with RP, as do many others I know. Maybe a
| product of schooling, but I wouldn't say it's dead.
|
| In media, you're quite correct - it has become rare bar
| presenters who are now in their 80s or older.
| vitro wrote:
| Maybe some of them may have had a purpose. With this one,
| if you were used to putting your elbows on the table and
| there were more people around, you just took up too much
| space and made it unpleasant for others around you.
| ghaff wrote:
| In general, upper-classish dining probably used to be more
| formal in the US in terms of cutlery type and placement and
| other things. May still be in some circles but no one I
| know worries about such things and even very decent
| restaurants don't. And when was the last time you saw a
| fish fork?
| technothrasher wrote:
| My mother-in-law always used to get annoyed at me for
| using my knife and fork in the European manor instead of
| the American way. She said it was boorish. I don't know
| anybody else here in the US who cares in the least which
| way you use your knife and fork, so I always interpreted
| it left over behavior from her upper class DC upbringing
| in the 1930-40's.
|
| (I did try to explain to her that it was more related to
| my being left handed than my attempting to emulate
| European behavior. It didn't seem to make much difference
| to her.)
| masfuerte wrote:
| By American way do you mean cutting the food then
| transferring the fork to your right hand for eating? Or
| is there some other distinction?
| bloomingeek wrote:
| Just guessing here, I'm left handed also. I don't trust
| myself to cut a piece of steak using the knife in my
| right hand. So, after cutting with my left hand, I put
| the knife down and use my left for forking.
|
| Or, it could be what my English son-in-law does, he uses
| his fork and knife, in different hands to aid in pushing
| food onto his fork. (He's right handed, not that it
| matters in this case.)
| madaxe_again wrote:
| That and you hold them in your fists or like a pen,
| rather than the European manner of holding cutlery.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| Lee Van Clyf eating in good bad and ugly. Really
| underlines the savageness of the wild west.
| wojciii wrote:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrOZIJni8Q
|
| This explains the difference. The European method seems
| the most optimal.
| jerlam wrote:
| I thought this would simply be about the knife and the
| fork switching hands, but holding the fork tines up or
| down (spearing vs scooping) is new to me.
|
| On the other hand, I don't think Americans ever pick up
| food with their fork and switch the loaded fork to the
| other hand, especially if the food is scooped, not
| speared. A lot of food would be dropped in the process.
|
| As a non-conformist, I taught myself to use my knife in
| the non-dominant hand so that the fork is used in the
| same hand regardless of knife usage.
| craftkiller wrote:
| This is bonkers. Just cut the food with your non-dominant
| hand. If you're so weak that you cannot cut the food with
| your non-dominant hand then you're either a small child,
| elderly, or you have a medical condition.
| vhcr wrote:
| It's just awkward, I've held the knife with my dominant
| hand all my life.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| Nonsense. If you can cut with your non dominant hand,
| then you can also spear and scoop with it.
| craftkiller wrote:
| Spear and scoop requires dexterity, hence the use of the
| dominant hand. Cutting is an extremely simple task with
| no special requirements.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| To save you a click, the answer is: yes.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| > no one I know worries about such things
|
| It went underground - those who know just note that
| you're nekulturny, and move on.
|
| They don't bother telling you about it, nowadays nothing
| good would come of that.
| gregjw wrote:
| I live in Osaka (only lived here a year) and it is
| fascinating the vibe change between Osaka and Kyoto.
| derefr wrote:
| I wonder what Ms. Kyoto would tell me to do to properly pick
| up my chopsticks, given that I'm left-handed, and yet it is
| apparently a faux pas to lay down the chopsticks pointing to
| the right.
| zeristor wrote:
| I'm thinking this would be interesting inspiration for a
| song by the band Pulp.
|
| Jarvis Cocker-san.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Do you know how serious "chopsticks upright in rice" is? I
| had a Chinese teacher who mentioned the taboo (with regard to
| China, not Japan), but she also said that while people
| recognize that it's something you're not supposed to do, it's
| not taken seriously either.
| NickC25 wrote:
| I do. My parents (americans) lived between HK and Taiwan
| for a decade before I was born, and growing up, I was
| fortunate enough to have my folks teach me a bit of
| chinese. We'd regularly go to a local Chinese restaurant
| where the staff would speak to me in Chinese so I could
| practice speaking. Seeing as some of the staff were
| significantly older, my dad taught me to be hyper aware of
| customs surrounding dining norms and etiquette. One day I
| accidentally left my chopsticks in the rice bowl while
| there was still rice in it, and the waitress (an older
| Chinese lady) saw it - poor lady nearly fainted.
|
| I did not make that mistake ever again.
|
| For context - it's a way of saying "death to your family"
| or something akin to that.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > I do.
|
| I don't think an elderly person who lives in a different
| country is actually a good guide to modern practice.
|
| Also, I was asking about Japan. I believed my Chinese
| teacher (in China).
|
| > For context - it's a way of saying "death to your
| family" or something akin to that.
|
| Nothing so specific. It is felt to resemble something
| you'd see at a funeral.
| nssnsjsjsjs wrote:
| Could be the Japanese version of getting a friend to "save
| them from the date" by calling to pretend it is an emergency.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| I would say you dodged a bullet.
|
| I dated many foreign girls and it was always fun to discover
| the cultural differences.
|
| There are similar faux-pas in France but, really, nobody with
| an ounce of common sense cares. You like your red wine cold
| as I do? Someone will maybe mention that you will be loosing
| some aroma znd that's all. You add sugar and ice? This is
| probably not a drink for you and you will get some laughs but
| that's all.
|
| I eat my starters after the main meal in the company
| restaurant, nobody cares.
|
| You are there to have pleasure, this is not West Point
| craftkiller wrote:
| > You add sugar and ice?
|
| One of my favorite alcoholic drinks is port + ice, which it
| sounds like the only difference here would be that wine +
| sugar + ice would be much weaker in terms of alcohol
| content.
| lloeki wrote:
| > You like your red wine cold as I do?
|
| Fun fact: "chambrer le vin" i.e getting (usually red) wine
| from storage temperature to "room temperature" comes from a
| time where said room temperature was _well below_ 20 degC
| (more like 13-15 degC), not the comfortable 20+ degC that
| people like to enjoy these days.
| BrandoElFollito wrote:
| Thanks for the reminder about our traditions. Now, I like
| to drink it straight from the fridge, i.e. about 6degC :)
| rayiner wrote:
| You also see plenty of americans put their elbows on the table.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| The original reasons for not putting your elbows on the table
| (limited space, as well as some others) just don't apply
| anymore. There's no reason _not_ to put your elbows on the
| table other than "that's how it's always been done". As such,
| at least in my opinion, the rule no longer applies.
| testaccount28 wrote:
| sailors eat with their elbows on the table, to keep their
| fare from sliding as the boat rocks. don't look poor!
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| That could only work as a reason to avoid the behavior if
| people were familiar with sailors.
| twelvedogs wrote:
| Until you do it on a temporary table and knock over
| everyone's drinks
| tmatsuzaki wrote:
| I'm Japanese, but honestly, I don't pay much attention to it.
| My parents used to get on me about it when I was a kid, but I
| still do it sometimes.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Half of this list feels about as important as remembering the
| order of spoons on a table. Something that probably meant a
| lot 100 years ago but is mostly forgotten now.
| zdc1 wrote:
| I assume this is one of those cases where if you're in the
| culture, you'll know which rules you're allowed to break (and
| when) vs if you're on the outside it's easiest to just follow
| all the rules all the time.
|
| Reminds me of an episode on youtube of _How The British Upper
| Class Live | Stacey Dooley Sleeps Over_ where the presenter
| eats her eggs "wrong", much to the dismay of her posh host who
| tells her (in his subtle British way) that she should "sort
| that out".
| hashmal wrote:
| I mean... I've consistently seen people chewing with their
| mouth open, talking while chewing, biting their fork, and so
| many others, just in occidental places, and it didn't seem to
| bother anyone but me. so, why would it be different in Japan?
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I see lots of people do things that are commonly written off as
| rude too. I don't know if there is much of a monoculture around
| what's rude or not, if people don't care (then is it truly
| rude?), or maybe the writings like this are simply outdated.
| emursebrian wrote:
| Most of these are common sense. As a tourist foreigner, you also
| aren't expected to know all the customs but it's appreciated when
| you try. The one about which direction to NOT point the
| chopsticks in was new to me. If you just watch what other people
| are doing, then try to do the same thing, you're probably on the
| right track.
|
| Related to eating, one pro-tip I got from a local is that when
| you're ready to close your tab or get your check at a bar or
| restaurant, you can make a small X with your index fingers.
|
| Really useful in a busy bar!
| 0x3f wrote:
| > Most of these are common sense.
|
| A lot of them are not common sense at all. Even the 'serious'
| ones require cultural knowledge to understand. Only a subset of
| the rest would be un-ideal across cultures, which is what I
| would use to measure 'common sense'.
|
| It's like how in some asian cultures it's rude to bring the
| bowl closer to you by lifting it off the table, and in others
| it's the opposite. And of course there's some just-so story for
| why, that seems to make sense if you don't know about the
| opposing just-so story.
|
| Things like that aren't what I'd call common sense.
| morkalork wrote:
| A bunch of the common sense ones, like not pointing at
| someone with your ustensiles, are the same in western
| etiquette.
| Sprotch wrote:
| It's not western etiquette and makes no sense to me
| ahhhhnoooo wrote:
| Using your fork, knife, or spoon to point at a person is
| absolutely considered rude. Gesturing with utensils
| likewise (because you can shower others with cast off
| detritus.)
|
| A quick Google search will turn up hundreds of results
| corroborating this.
| nayroclade wrote:
| Or just consider the "asshole dinner guest" trope that
| appears in so many TV shows and movies. They will always
| be talking too loudly and gesticulating/pointing with
| their cutlery.
| SpecialistK wrote:
| > The one about which direction to NOT point the chopsticks in
| was new to me.
|
| I suspect it mostly affects left handed people.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| 1. I have seen Japanese people do approximately half of the
| things on the list.
|
| 2. The two listed as "serious" are related to Japanese funerary
| rites, and so are clearly culturally specific.
|
| 3. Several of the things listed are perfectly acceptable in
| other chopstick-using cultures. Many are also perfectly
| acceptable to do with a fork and/or knife in cultures that use
| forks and knives. I think I would go so far as to say that
| there is not a single thing on there for which it would be
| widely considered rude to do in all cultures.
| rtpg wrote:
| > 1. I have seen Japanese people do approximately half of the
| things on the list.
|
| There are people in Japan who are rude or who do not have as
| good manners or etiquette when they are eating alone!
|
| If everyone followed all manners all the times they wouldn't
| really be encoded woould they?
| bspammer wrote:
| Both of the serious ones are not specific to Japan, I got
| told off in China for standing chopsticks up in rice. I
| suspect anywhere with a significant Buddhist population will
| have the same taboo.
| humanlity wrote:
| The use of incense to remember ancestors was spread widely
| across Asia by Confucianism. Chopsticks look quite similar to
| incense sticks, so it makes common sense to have this
| tradition.
| manarth wrote:
| when you're ready to close your tab, you can make a small X
| with your index fingers
|
| In the UK, we have the mime of "writing a cheque". I wonder how
| widespread that is, and if/when it'll fall out of relevance
| with the following generations who have never seen a cheque-
| book?
| mjamesaustin wrote:
| I was shocked to find it's a faux pas to rub disposable
| chopsticks to remove potential splinters. I was taught this is
| what you're supposed to do with disposable chopsticks.
| WorldPeas wrote:
| right? What's the right way? I don't want splinters on the most
| sensitive surface in my body..
| cthalupa wrote:
| The splinters come from where they break apart and there's
| not really any reason to have that part of the chopsticks
| touching your skin.
|
| But you move away from break apart disposable chopsticks in
| Japan long before you get to high etiquette dining. In my
| experience, basically every restaurant in Japan that isn't
| of, like, fast food tier, provides actual chopsticks instead
| of disposable ones.
| waffletower wrote:
| I had mostly disposables but they were actually lathed
| wood. The crude rectangular cut chopsticks are terrible --
| usually not for splinters, but they often break
| imperfectly, leaving you with two sticks with different
| lengths.
| floren wrote:
| For those cheap chopsticks, I've found the best way to
| break them is to grasp them at the very tips, then move
| your two hands away from each other briskly without
| twisting, just straight apart. I haven't had many break
| badly since I started doing this.
| fghorow wrote:
| (Mode I) So fracture mechanics does have its uses, eh?
| dmit wrote:
| I once witnessed a local admonish another (younger) local for
| exactly that at a bar. He replied with a bratty "Not my fault
| they're using crappy chopsticks..."
| raised_by_foxes wrote:
| It's rude if it's a nice establishment, as it conveys your
| belief that the chopsticks are of low quality. So that's what
| you're signaling with that. If everyone already knows they are
| cheap (e.g. disposable), then have at it.
| triceratops wrote:
| If a nice establishment has splintery chopsticks maybe they
| should look in the mirror.
| helterskelter wrote:
| Probably it's rude to do it automatically with every pair
| of disposable chopsticks and not just the crappy ones.
| rtpg wrote:
| I go to your house to have food. You give me a fork and
| knife. I go to your kitchen to wash the fork and knife for
| good measure.
| vel0city wrote:
| You come to my house to have food. I serve the food on
| obviously unclean dishes. Is that not rude as well? Do
| you just use the obviously dirty, nasty, used dishes out
| of not wanting to appear rude?
|
| Do I just use chopsticks that will put splinters in my
| mouth just to not appear rude?
| rtpg wrote:
| In your metaphor the equivalent would be that you see
| that the chopsticks have splinters and are cleaning it
|
| But everyone I met who does splinter cleanup does it
| _every time_ even without a cursory inspection. So the
| metaphor is... maybe more apt that you are cleaning a
| plate despite not seeing whether it's clean or not first
| renewiltord wrote:
| Why don't they just serve proper chopsticks then instead of
| break apart ones? Cheapobashi - serving your customers
| disposable chopsticks when they're paying for a good
| experience.
| radley wrote:
| I agree. I always have to do it, except at the rare
| restaurants. Not just splinters, but rough edges too.
| tanjtanjtanj wrote:
| I ate at a very nice restaurant (think The Menu) in Kagaonsen
| last week and the main course was served with lacquered
| chopsticks but another course was served with disposable
| chopsticks and the waiter actually broke them and rubbed them
| together for me. I think the social faux pas is making a show
| of doing it.
| fwipsy wrote:
| Perhaps they did that because they knew some people would be
| too polite to?
| AdamN wrote:
| You know you're at a fancy restaurant when the waiters have
| an entire dish emulating what the poors are eating. Reminds
| me of a restaurant I used to really like in NYC called
| 'Peasant' :-/
| apparent wrote:
| I had a friend from Korea who thought it wasn't necessary/was
| improper to rub chopsticks together. This wasn't a matter of
| offending the restaurant, since we were eating in a university
| cafeteria.
|
| I always rub mine together, but I suppose it would be
| interesting to know if you didn't, how often would something
| bad happen? Is it more likely to hurt your mouth or your
| fingers?
| wagwang wrote:
| Always interesting to see the analogs of island vs continental
| culture when comparing UK <-> America and Japan <-> China. Seems
| like islanders, due to their reliance on trade, naturally get
| specialized and autistic about their craft so they can have a
| comparative advantage, and their obsessions carry over into
| stuffy traditional practices.
| dugidugout wrote:
| Would you mind sharing your insight? I'd be interested to hear!
| 0x3f wrote:
| I counter with the American swap-the-fork-hand-after-you-cut
| thing. Diabolical.
| dgxyz wrote:
| That's just mental. Does my head in when I see it.
| mlhpdx wrote:
| American raised by a Brit here, and I was literally just
| doing this during lunch out. I consider the upside down
| fork just plain torture.
| kibwen wrote:
| As an American, I don't think I have ever seen anyone do
| this.
| jnwatson wrote:
| Really? You don't know any Naval Academy graduates then.
| gavmor wrote:
| Really? You hold the fork with your dominant hand, and cut
| with your non-dominant hand?
| kibwen wrote:
| Yes. For the record, Americans also don't wear their
| shoes indoors, except for maybe some people in extremely
| dry climates.
| tad_tough_anne wrote:
| Don't all younger Americans do this? Cutting food and
| pushing it onto the fork requires less dexterity than
| conveying it to one's mouth. I know Boomers who put down
| their knives after each cut (never using them to push)
| and swap their fork around before using it _tines-down_ ,
| and I think it's more comically affected than the tea-
| pinky thing.
| 0x3f wrote:
| You're not supposed to use the fork like a shovel, is the
| thing. The tines are to skewer the food, which is why
| tines-down makes sense. Otherwise, why not a spoon?
|
| Also, the at-distance interaction between two tools
| requires much more dexterity than making your hand meet
| your mouth. The latter you should be able to do with your
| eyes closed.
| manarth wrote:
| If I were eating a stereotypical British meal - say:
| meat, potatoes, and peas - I would use the fork as a
| "shovel" for the peas: guide the peas onto the fork with
| a knife, then raise and eat from the fork.
|
| I wouldn't switch from a fork to a spoon to eat the peas.
|
| _Other vegetables are available. I 'm not judging_.
| 0x3f wrote:
| > I would use the fork as a "shovel" for the peas
|
| Well I don't personally mind, but this would be seen as
| poor form in the sense of the original article. You're
| 'supposed' to kind of spear them onto the end of the
| tines using the knife.
|
| Also, with the scoop method, if the peas are hard enough,
| I would think they're at great risk of rolling around and
| off the fork. If I were going scoop style, I'd have to
| mash or at least flatten them a little first to prevent
| this.
|
| No wonder robotics is hard.
| manarth wrote:
| > "No wonder robotics is hard"
|
| Imagine the furore when AGI realises humans frown on it
| for its table-manners! :-D
| gnabgib wrote:
| It's like you've never met someone who's left handed
| zephen wrote:
| As another American, I submit you really haven't been
| paying attention.
| bot403 wrote:
| It's considered polite in American culture.
| Sprotch wrote:
| What stuffy traditional practices does the UK have?
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _Always interesting to see the analogs of island vs
| continental culture when comparing UK <-> America and Japan <->
| China._
|
| when America was settled/founded by Britains, etiquette had not
| been standardized in GB either so the differences are due to
| parallel development, not island vs continent. That probably
| holds even more for differences between Japan and China.
| bigwheels wrote:
| Fascinating culture and raises numerous questions arising from my
| subsequent confusion:
|
| 1. _> Fan shiZhu Kaeshibashi (also known as Ni saZhu
| sakasabashi)
|
| > To turn the chopsticks around when serving food so that the
| tips of the chopsticks that have touched one's mouth do not touch
| the food._
|
| Does this mean it is preferable to use the tips that may have
| touched mouth to then serve more food? Or is this considered fine
| because it's also taboo to touch the tips to your mouth? (which
| only a BARBARIAN would do!)
|
| 2. _> kosuriZhu Kosuribashi
|
| > To rub waribashi (disposable chopsticks) together to remove
| splinters._
|
| Just proceed to eat some splinters, then? What is the good
| etiquette way to handle low quality el-cheapo chopsticks?
|
| ---
|
| I have been guilty of the above as well as:
|
| Chigiribashi - Hold one chopstick in each hand and use them like
| a knife and fork to tear or cut food into smaller pieces.
|
| Soroebashi - Hold chopsticks together and tap them on a dish or
| the top of the table to align the tips.
|
| Namidabashi - Allow sauce or soup to drip from the tips of the
| chopsticks when eating. Namida means "tears."
|
| Nigiribashi - Grip both chopsticks in a fist.
|
| Neburibashi - Lick the chopsticks.
|
| Hashibashi - Place the chopsticks like a bridge across the top of
| a dish to show one is finished. Chopsticks should be placed on
| the hashioki (chopstick rest).
|
| Furibashi - Shake off soup, sauce, or small bits of food from the
| tips of the chopsticks.
|
| Mogibashi - Bite off and eat grains of rice that are stuck to the
| chopsticks.
|
| Yokobashi - Line the chopsticks up together and use them like a
| spoon to scoop up food.
|
| .. growing up my mom used to say, "What are you, raised by
| wolves!?" .. apparently, yes!
| vitus wrote:
| > Kaeshibashi
|
| The preference is to use a separate pair of communal chopsticks
| that is not used directly for eating.
|
| > Kosuribashi
|
| I have heard that this one is because it's considered to be an
| insult implying that the chopsticks are low-quality. (That
| said, if your chopsticks are indeed low-quality, then avoiding
| splinters is probably preferable to then visibly plucking
| splinters out of your fingers.)
| 0x3f wrote:
| > Just proceed to eat some splinters, then? What is the good
| etiquette way to handle low quality el-cheapo chopsticks?
|
| Well first of all the chopsticks are joined at the non-eating
| end, typically. So the splinters would be bothering your
| fingers more than anything.
|
| It's rude because it insults the host, in a way. Anywhere that
| would care about you doing it should not be giving you the
| cheap chopsticks in the first place. If you're in a place that
| gives you them, they probably don't care about you doing it.
| sudo_cowsay wrote:
| There are steel chopsticks (though not really common <-- only
| in Korea).
| scheme271 wrote:
| The metal chopsticks are pretty much only get used in
| Korea. The shape and material of the chopsticks varies by
| country so you can make a good guess as to where someone is
| from based on which chopsticks they use.
| wenc wrote:
| The disposable wooden chopsticks in Japan don't splinter
| (they're higher quality and cost more than the ones we have in
| the US).
|
| That's why you don't need to rub to get rid of splinters.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _The disposable wooden chopsticks in Japan don't splinter_
|
| If that was always true, there wouldn't be a word for it.
|
| I've been given some pretty gnarly chopsticks at roadside
| places outside the main metropolitan areas.
| refactor_master wrote:
| Well that certainly depends on the establishment. I've picked
| out plenty of splinters here in Japan.
| moron4hire wrote:
| I think it's important to point out that these are good manners
| for eating with Japanese people, not good manners for eating
| with chopsticks. There is no requirement to emulate Japanese
| eating manners if you're not in Japan and not anywhere near a
| person raised in Japanese cultur. There are other cultures that
| use chopsticks that do not necessarily have these manners.
| cthalupa wrote:
| This is definitely true - but some of these are fairly
| universal, or at least that is my understanding. I believe
| the 'no sticking chopsticks upright in rice' one is shared
| between Japan, Korea, China, etc. for example - it looks like
| funerary incense/joss sticks in all three due to the shared
| aspects of their cultures, for example.
| _spduchamp wrote:
| What a coincidence... I was just in my backyard shed playing with
| my robot chopstick. https://youtu.be/BhBXliscj0I
| morkalork wrote:
| Namidabashi and Furibashi seem like a contradiction
| frereubu wrote:
| > koziZhu Kojibashi (also known as hoziriZhu hojiribashi)
|
| > To use the chopsticks to pick something out from near the
| bottom of the dish.
|
| I think there must be some bits that are lost in translation for
| some of these. This makes it sound like you can't eat all of the
| food in a bowl with your chopsticks.
| FartyMcFarter wrote:
| Maybe it means that you're digging up food that is under other
| food?
| bigwheels wrote:
| It's like core-ing out the goody bits from an otherwise bland
| pint of ice cream. Who would ever do such a disgusting and
| selfish thing? :-0
| frereubu wrote:
| Yeah, could be - that's kind of what I mean in terms of being
| lost in translation. It feels like there's missing
| information / context in quite a few of them.
|
| Edit: In fact I think you're completely right - "picking out"
| something near the bottom of the dish does suggest that.
| univerio wrote:
| I think just written in an ambiguous way: "dish" here
| refers to the food contained in the vessel and not the
| vessel itself.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| Let me check but I think it refers to a shared dish; at an
| izakaiya you often order a bunch of shared food plates and
| then serve yourself from them.
|
| It is definitely rude to use chopsticks that you just put
| in your mouth to go rooting around for something in those.
| You are supposed to take from the top and ideally turn them
| around using the back end. Some people frown on using the
| back ends however as it may have been touched by your
| hand...
|
| Edit add: It means to dig food out, either from your own
| dish or a shared one. Like mixing the food up to look for
| something you like in it.
| irishcoffee wrote:
| Fan shiZhu Kaeshibashi (also known as Ni saZhu
| sakasabashi)
|
| To turn the chopsticks around when serving food so that
| the tips of the chopsticks that have touched one's mouth
| do not touch the food.
| bagacrap wrote:
| Kinda sad for me to know this because one of my favorite things
| about chopsticks is their precision. I can pick exactly the
| piece of food I feel like eating in the next moment. This makes
| it sound like I'm not supposed to be picky.
| t-3 wrote:
| It makes more sense in the context of:
|
| > Yi riZhu Utsuribashi (also known as Du riZhu wataribashi)
|
| > To keep putting the chopsticks into the same side dishes.
| It is proper etiquette to first eat rice, move on to eat from
| a side dish, eat rice again, and then eat from a different
| side dish.
|
| More about politeness to other guests in the context of a
| shared meal than being picky (and probably also with some
| similar logic to the TCM theories of how and what to eat, and
| maybe giving face to the host).
| waffletower wrote:
| I lived in Japan for nearly 6 years and found that concern for
| faux pas such as these for hashi (chopsticks) are way way
| overblown. I used at least one thousand disposable pairs of
| chopsticks in Japan and never had the desire to smooth them --
| they are higher quality than Panda Express offerings. I knew
| about this "taboo" prior to arrival and it was simply irrelevant.
| Avoid the obvious symbolic references to makura gohan (bowl of
| rice offering to the deceased) at the end of your meal and you
| are probably golden. If you have kids in Japan, gaijin passing
| food with chopsticks to their children in a restaurant is going
| to be seen in a neutral or even sympathetic light. The Japanese
| may silently judge but they rarely sneer or harass. If you spend
| a lot of time with modern Japanese families you might be
| surprised to discover Western stereotypes of Japanese taboos are
| sometimes outdated and even incorrect. They are very aware that
| foreigners will not understand all of their customs, and many of
| those customs have decreasing importance as their culture
| evolves.
| decimalenough wrote:
| Passing food by placing it directly on someone else's plate or
| bowl is fine. The taboo is specifically about two people
| holding onto the same thing at the same tine with chopsticks,
| the way cremated bone fragments are placed into the urn at
| _kotsuage_.
|
| Other than that, I agree. It's kind of like trying to apply
| Emily Post's etiquette to TV dinners: many of these "rules"
| would be viewed as prissy by Japanese and some (eg. giving your
| miso soup a swirl with your chopsticks before drinking) are
| very, very commonly ignored.
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _holding onto the same thing at the same tine_
|
| i see what you did there
| dekhn wrote:
| The main one for me is not putting your chopsticks on top of
| the bowl rim or putting the chopsticks sticking up from the
| rice. Those are both intuitive natural actions for me. In the
| US I rarely see chopstick rests so I'm always wonderting what
| to do with them when I'm not using them.
| AftHurrahWinch wrote:
| Phew, I'm glad "inserting them into your nostrils and braying
| like a walrus" isn't on the list.
| ngruhn wrote:
| waruburashi
| underlipton wrote:
| odobashi?
| vpribish wrote:
| _SNORT_
| fwipsy wrote:
| Don't, you'll get chopsticks in your sinuses
| vpribish wrote:
| and that's a faux pas, for sure
| sudo_cowsay wrote:
| sacrilegious lol
| minikomi wrote:
| I think it's number 9 in the list
| mmooss wrote:
| > To place one's mouth against the side of a dish and push food
| in with the chopsticks.
|
| I've seen people eat noodles and broth (e.g., ramen) like that a
| million times? What am I missing? How do you properly eat noodles
| and broth?
| waffletower wrote:
| That taboo is simply wrong in many contexts. Watch Tampopo
| after reading this and it can correct for a lot.
| triceratops wrote:
| Slurp the noodles and drink the broth?
| decimalenough wrote:
| It's not a taboo, it's just not considered good manners in
| formal contexts.
|
| But it's fast and efficient, which is why people do it anyway.
| mmooss wrote:
| So how does one eat ramen-like dishes in formal contexts?
| t-3 wrote:
| They don't. Ramen is a poor-persons-food and probably not
| being served at formal banquets.
| unsignedint wrote:
| The article does a good job calling out the more serious
| offenses, although I'd personally argue that nigiribashi is just
| as bad as the other two. Most Japanese people would probably
| react with a bit of shock to those.
|
| That said, chopstick etiquette is definitely evolving. Something
| like chobujubashi isn't enforced as strictly anymore, especially
| with more awareness around left-handed users. Kaeshibashi, on the
| other hand, is becoming more common, and in some social circles,
| not doing it can actually come across as rude.
| helterskelter wrote:
| > Kaeshibashi, on the other hand, is becoming more common, and
| in some social circles, not doing it can actually come across
| as rude.
|
| I was always under the impression this was the polite thing to
| do.
| b0rtb0rt wrote:
| i think it depends on the setting, when eating with family at
| their house they've told me not to do it
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| That one puzzled me, probably makes sense if there are "serving
| chopsticks":
|
| """
|
| Jikabashi
|
| To use one's own chopsticks instead of serving chopsticks to
| take food from a large serving dish.
|
| """
| perdomon wrote:
| Some of these sound just as made-up as a lot of Western dining
| "rules." Maybe someone more familiar with the culture can say
| whether or not these are true faux pas in an everyday ramen shop
| or similar.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| They're not fake but some are not followed by everyone outside
| of formal situations
| galangalalgol wrote:
| I always do the splinter thing. I thought that was normal. If
| the place has disposable chopsticks it isn't the sort of
| place etiquette matters is it?
| dbcurtis wrote:
| he he... is that the equivalent of when I was a kid we
| differentiated by "drive-in", "paper-napkin restaurant" and
| "cloth-napkin restaurant" in order of how much trouble you
| would be in if you embarrassed your parents.
| kdheiwns wrote:
| Even expensive restaurants in Japan use disposable
| chopsticks. And you only get splinters on your chopsticks
| because you're rubbing them in your hands and making pieces
| break off.
|
| In all my decades of using chopsticks, I've never had a
| splinter poke me. But I've seen people rub their chopsticks
| then complain about splinters.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| There are the ones that are partly rounded and only
| attached for a cm or so at the top. They are fine. Then
| there are the square ones that are attached for half or
| more of the length and don't always break apart cleanly.
| They have never poked me, but they have shed bits into my
| food before that I had to pick out. I will stop cleaning
| up the ones that don't actually need it. I didn't realize
| it was offensive.
| cthalupa wrote:
| I was really confused by this because I've spent about 6
| months of my life in Tokyo and got very very very few
| disposable chopsticks at restaurants a tier above, like,
| shokken ramen shops.
|
| But the internet informs me that the composite chopsticks
| that I am used to seeing went away during covid and now
| disposable wooden chopsticks are the norm.
| rtpg wrote:
| I don't exactly know the system for which restaurants
| pull out of the disposable chopsticks but I think that
| for example "normal" tempura, katsudon, or like soba
| restaurants will tend to be those.
|
| I almost associate the cheapo reusable plastic chopsticks
| with some food courts or Matsuya at this point.
| nihonde wrote:
| No one is going to get mad at you for violating these, but they
| will judge you. If you're trying to get along with a person
| from a proper Japanese family, you'll fail unless you know all
| of these and more. For example, placing bowls/plates on the
| table too hard, or not trying hard enough to pay the bill, not
| serving others, pouring your own drink...the list goes on and
| on. Most people think these things are silly, but some
| absolutely do not and will treat you accordingly if you're
| making these mistakes. Whether or not you care is up to you and
| the situation. This is all also true in almost every other
| culture, by the way.
| hatthew wrote:
| I'm curious for a native's opinion on how important these are.
| The etiquette I was taught growing up in the US is a mix of:
| - several things that are often quoted as good etiquette but
| nobody follows (elbows off the table, correct order of dishes)
| - lots of things that are customary but nobody cares if you don't
| follow it (napkin on lap, placement of silverware) - only
| a few things that actually matter and would be considered rude by
| normal people (don't touch shared food with used silverware, keep
| your mouth closed while chewing)
|
| Of these several dozen "rules" for chopsticks, how many actually
| fall into the last category of things that actually matter?
| cthalupa wrote:
| Honestly, I don't even really see 'don't touch shared food with
| used silverware' followed if a place doesn't provide specific
| serving utensils.
| hatthew wrote:
| Yeah it's a pretty flexible rule, but it's at least something
| to think about, unlike a lot of other "rules" that you're
| allowed to completely disregard for your entire life. I
| probably was too strict in describing that last bullet point.
| jwrallie wrote:
| People told me to avoid placing chopsticks upwards in a bowl
| before I even went to Japan so that is the only one I'd keep in
| mind.
|
| Given how many of these are clever tricks that I learned from
| seeing Japanese people eat, like aligning the chopsticks
| quickly in a plate or cleaning waribashi from splinters by
| rubbing them together, I'd not take all of these seriously, but
| it's cool to know nonetheless.
| usagisushi wrote:
| Native here. I'd say only about 6 out of the 47 listed actually
| matter (Awasebashi, Urabashi, Kamibashi, Jikabashi, Tatebashi,
| and Neburibashi).
|
| Most of these are only for formal settings. Honestly, I haven't
| even heard of some of them. Aside from Tatebashi (sticking
| chopsticks in rice), they're mostly avoided for hygiene
| reasons. As for Nigiribashi (clutching them in a fist), it just
| looks a bit strange for an adult to do.
| jstanley wrote:
| I also understand that in the US it is the etiquette to cut
| your food up all at once, and then put the knife down, and then
| move your fork to your right hand, and then eat all the pieces
| using just the fork.
| midtake wrote:
| > kosuriZhu Kosuribashi
|
| > To rub waribashi (disposable chopsticks) together to remove
| splinters.
|
| Stopped reading there. If you're handing me crappy chopsticks to
| eat with I am rubbing them together first.
| weedhopper wrote:
| Exactly, too many times have i heard from some snob not to rub
| them, who later had to pull a splinter out of their finger.
| mijoharas wrote:
| For anyone else curious after reading "-bashi" 40 times:
|
| (Not gonna direct quote because the damn site doesn't allow copy-
| pasting so they don't get a link, paraphrased):
|
| Kirai-bashi would be literally translated to "dislike-chopsticks"
| and means bad chopstick table-manners. Hashi is chopsticks and
| bashi is the voiced form of it.
|
| So the bashi suffix/word on the end of all of these just means
| chopsticks it seems.
| refactor_master wrote:
| To add to this, voicing is also a way for Japanese words to
| become more "coherent", the same way you write "dislike-
| chopsticks" as one combined noun, and not "dislike chopsticks".
| adrian_b wrote:
| Someone downvoted this, but the poster is correct, so there
| was absolutely no reason for downvoting.
|
| Rendaku, i.e. the voicing of the initial consonant, happens
| in the native Japanese words (i.e. not in the Japanese words
| of Chinese origin), in most cases when they are a part of a
| compound word and they are not the initial word. This serves
| indeed to distinguish a sequence of unrelated words from a
| compound word.
|
| There are exceptions when rendaku does not happen, but
| typically whenever a word like hashi becomes a part of a
| compound word it will be voiced to -bashi.
|
| "H" is a special case among the consonants, because in old
| Japanese it was pronounced as "p", which is why it is voiced
| as "b". Later, in initial positions the pronunciation was
| changed to "f" and even later the pronunciation was changed
| to "h". The "f" pronunciation has been retained only before
| "u", like in Fuji. In non initial positions, the original "p"
| has become later "v" and even later "w".
|
| These pronunciation changes happened after the creation of
| the hiragana and katakana syllabaries, so they were not
| reflected in writing. The orthographic reform that was forced
| after WWII has brought the written form of the words closer
| to the pronunciation, e.g. by writing consistently "w" where
| it is pronounced so. Before WWII, many words written now with
| "-wa-" were still written with "-ha-", a spelling that has
| been preserved now only in the particle "wa" (like the
| spelling corresponding to the old pronunciation "wo" has been
| preserved for the particle "o").
|
| While the Japanese orthographic reform had some positive
| effects, in simplifying a little the Japanese writing, it
| also had the effect that for someone who knows only the
| modern written Japanese it is difficult to read the Japanese
| books published before WWII, where many different kanji are
| used and also their hiragana transcriptions are different.
|
| I assume that this was actually an effect intended by the
| American occupation forces, as a similar policy was applied
| by the Russians in all the territories of the Soviet Union
| (except the Baltic countries), where they forced the native
| populations to change their writing systems to the Cyrillic
| alphabet, in order to make difficult for the younger
| generations to read anything dating from before the Russian
| occupation.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > The "f" pronunciation has been retained only before "u",
| like in Fuji.
|
| Well, there is a convention that syllables starting with h-
| are spelled with f- (in foreign transcription) if the
| following vowel is -u. There's not much difference in the
| pronunciation itself; maybe there was more of one when the
| spelling convention was set.
| twodave wrote:
| Glad to know I haven't picked up any seriously bad habits, but
| how the heck do you keep the chopsticks aligned without tapping
| them somewhere?
|
| Most of these seem related to health/sanitary practices/being
| considerate more than anything. Just avoiding contaminating what
| others are going to eat with your own utensils is an easy way to
| describe several of them.
| cthalupa wrote:
| You can just slide them with your fingers, even one handed, and
| it's not like they need to be perfectly aligned.
|
| But, yeah, I tap them to align them all the time, have seen
| Japanese people do it day in and day out. I've even done it in
| some fine dining places in Japan. No one yelled at me, but I am
| a gaijin, so...
| koolba wrote:
| > Yi riZhu Utsuribashi (also known as Du riZhu wataribashi)
|
| > To keep putting the chopsticks into the same side dishes. It is
| proper etiquette to first eat rice, move on to eat from a side
| dish, eat rice again, and then eat from a different side dish.
|
| So keto itself is a faux pas?
|
| > Fan shiZhu Kaeshibashi (also known as Ni saZhu sakasabashi)
|
| > To turn the chopsticks around when serving food so that the
| tips of the chopsticks that have touched one's mouth do not touch
| the food.
|
| Ewww. I'd rather be rude than share germs.
| tmathmeyer wrote:
| >> To turn the chopsticks around when serving food so that the
| tips of the chopsticks that have touched one's mouth do not
| touch the food.
|
| > Ewww. I'd rather be rude than share germs.
|
| I think this means you should use something other than your
| chopsticks to share food, and not just assume that "the back of
| my chopsticks are germ-free, I'll use that"
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Keto diet doesn't exist in Japanese cuisine. If you're going to
| a keto friendly place, it's something trendy and contemporary
| so this traditional advice obviously doesn't apply. It is not a
| faux-pas to eat non traditional / non Japanese cuisine.
| sneak wrote:
| Keto diet doesn't exist in western cuisine either. It's a
| niche thing in both places, and both places have specific
| single dishes without carbs.
| jwrallie wrote:
| You will quickly learn the first one because if you keep eating
| the delicious side dishes you will be only left with large
| amounts of bland rice to eat last.
| laughing_man wrote:
| It would be pretty irritating if someone in your dinner party
| ate the lion's share of the more flavorful food and left the
| rice for everyone else.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > if you keep eating the delicious side dishes you will be
| only left with large amounts of bland rice to eat last.
|
| At a Chinese restaurant, you're not given more than a small
| bowl of rice anyway. There is no way to "be left with large
| amounts".
| grep_name wrote:
| I've always thought I'd like to visit Japan someday, but have
| always been worried about the cultural significance and
| omnipresence of white rice. Like, I can see how not eating
| rice would seem boorish (like you only want to eat the more
| expensive proteins, don't understand the purpose of a palate
| cleanser, etc), but living with type 1 diabetes I have not
| eaten white rice in literal years. Every single time I do, I
| regret it -- it's a complete nightmare to control your blood
| sugar after, sometimes for the entire rest of the day. I've
| even wondered if I could find a way to avoid being impolite
| by deliberately under eating the whole time if I were to
| visit, to make it clear I'm not just taking the good stuff
| and leaving the rice out of greed.
| e-dant wrote:
| Some of these I've been told are taboos in the opposite way. For
| example, the one about serving or taking food from the opposite
| end of the chopsticks, I was told, is polite. But here they say
| it is taboo. Maybe they meant it's taboo _not_ to do that?
| sneak wrote:
| Yes, it's weirdly ambiguous. But even that is performative, as
| you're still using an unsanitary part - the part that has
| touched your hand vs the part that has touched your lips.
| steanne wrote:
| is there a word for using them as hairsticks?
| fsckboy wrote:
| "kawai"
| kazinator wrote:
| If they serve me slop with only a few good bits, I'm doing
| saguribashi.
| zippyman55 wrote:
| I have always wondered when I used the pair of chopsticks to push
| food on my fork, if there was a name for my type.
| rayiner wrote:
| I love how they have words for the different kinds of rule
| breaking. Truly civilized people.
| osti wrote:
| More like oppressed people by all those bs rules.
| rayiner wrote:
| The only thing being "oppressed" are people's animal
| instincts to be disorderly.
| osti wrote:
| There's a fine line between making ppl civilized and
| fascism-like level of control. And I believe Japan errs on
| the other side too much with their ridiculous number of
| such rules in all areas of life. Even though I recently
| visited Japan, I can't really speak to how happy they are,
| but the stereotype is that they are not the happiest ppl
| out there. I believe their obedience to all such societal
| rules has a role in it.
| fumeux_fume wrote:
| My heart is lightened to learn inserting the chopsticks into your
| mouth to make walrus fangs is not taboo.
| RIMR wrote:
| I'm betting Kuwaebashi covers that.
| anilakar wrote:
| It actually prohibits _holding_ the chopsticks in your mouth.
| You have a chopstick rest (and workarounds) for that.
|
| Just like the next term on the list does not prohibit eating
| food on the bottom but rather digging into the bowl instead
| of eating in top down order.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| Don't go to Chinese food with a drummer. It's just maddening.
| 7bit wrote:
| It actually is tradition
| mmsc wrote:
| kosuriZhu Kosuribashi: To rub waribashi (disposable
| chopsticks) together to remove splinters.
|
| I don't know about Japan, but everybody does this in Taiwan.
| musicale wrote:
| Sandpaper and dremel aren't on the forbidden list yet.
| manarth wrote:
| I don't often bring sandpaper or dremel tools to a
| restaurant.
| xandrius wrote:
| Well, that's just against traditions.
| Shank wrote:
| > I don't know about Japan
|
| It is definitely not appropriate. If you break the chop sticks
| and use them correctly your fingers will never touch the
| surface where there are splinters.
| bitwank wrote:
| I always do it under the table; something I instinctively do
| without ever being told to. Now I wonder if I might have
| picked up on nonverbal cues at some point in the past. If I
| were someplace where chopsticks were the norm, I would
| probably just carry my own as I find the disposable wooden
| ones very off putting. I have to wonder if there is a rule
| about using your own chopsticks though.
| georgefrowny wrote:
| Chobukubashi would make being left-handed decidedly annoying.
| musicale wrote:
| On the other hand (so to speak), European style (fork stays in
| left hand) is great for left-handers.
| vunderba wrote:
| When I first moved to Taiwan and was just getting a handle on
| Chinese, I asked a waiter "Qing Gei Wo Yi Ge Kuai Zi " - not yet
| being familiar with proper measure words.
|
| The waiter (who had a bit of a sense of humor) brought me exactly
| _ONE_ chopstick. I laughed and repeated Qing Gei Wo Ling Yi Ge
| Kuai Zi ( _Please give me another chopstick_ ) and he brought
| out another one.
|
| Of course later my friend told me that I should have used Shuang
| to indicate I wanted a "pair" of chopsticks.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Of course later my friend told me that I should have used
| Shuang to indicate I wanted a "pair" of chopsticks.
|
| That's hard to guess. There are three common measure words
| meaning "pair"; Fu is for "pairs" that are connected, like a
| "pair" of scissors in English, but Shuang and Dui are
| basically identical in significance as far as I know.
|
| > The waiter (who had a bit of a sense of humor) brought me
| exactly _ONE_ chopstick.
|
| Slightly unfair, since Yi Ge Kuai Zi , beyond being
| semantically anomalous, is more or less ungrammatical too. If
| you actually wanted one chopstick, you'd say Yi Zhi Kuai Zi .
|
| What kind of path did you take that taught you how to say Ling
| Yi Ge before you learned about measure words?
| vunderba wrote:
| I think they were just poking a bit of good natured fun at
| me. Many foreigners new to Chinese just kind of blindly use
| Ge for everything when they're starting out.
|
| _> What kind of path did you take that taught you how to say
| Ling Yi Ge before you learned about measure words?_
|
| The self-taught kind. :)
| rendaw wrote:
| Hashibashi - does this mean it's okay to place the chopsticks
| across the top if it's _not_ to show you 're finished? I heard
| that was okay as long as you align them not to point at another
| person (not across the table). If there's no chopstick rest I'm
| not sure where else you're supposed to put your chopsticks.
|
| Also I'm not sure how you're supposed to eat e.g. fried rice
| without yokobashi or kakibashi.
|
| Also! I thought kaeshibashi was a _good_ thing. I 've definitely
| seen people do that at parties.
| K0balt wrote:
| Yokobashi bros! Fist bump.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| I think you're supposed to eat fried rice with a spoon :)
| Arch485 wrote:
| I'm curious about Hashibashi as well. I've seen lots of
| Japanese people doing it, and now I'm worried I look like a
| total poser from copying them.
| econ wrote:
| I once see someone's chopsticks taken away from them and replaced
| with a knife and fork. I've always wondered what they did wrong.
| Now I see they probably covered half this list. Haha
| locusofself wrote:
| I did this once and was scolded by my date:
|
| !!! (Serious) To stand chopsticks upright in a bowl of rice. This
| is taboo, as it is the way rice is presented as a Buddhist
| funeral offering.
| JasonADrury wrote:
| It would also be completely inappropriate if you did that with
| a fork or a knife.
| daemonologist wrote:
| Did you also play Thrice today? (This was one of the daily
| questions.)
| choonway wrote:
| as a lifelong chopstick user, this article is for one of those
| fault finding crazies.
|
| hold the chopstick however you like. so long as you don't drop
| things unintentionally it's fine.
| tempodox wrote:
| Highly instructive, and some quite surprising to me as a gaijin.
|
| > To take the tips of the chopsticks in one's mouth.
|
| Sometimes I'm having a hard time avoiding that. Apparently I need
| more practice.
| derefr wrote:
| I think that one refers to doing so _when there is no food on
| the chopsticks_. Picture tapping the chopsticks against your
| lips to show you're thinking, if conversing while eating. The
| overarching rule being that you should put the chopsticks down
| whenever you're not in the middle of picking up /moving food
| with them.
|
| (Unless you _want_ to come off as imitating a Rakugo
| storyteller. If you do, then go ahead and use them as a talking
| prop. But maybe make it clear that you're not eating with those
| ones, so people don't worry you'll flick sauce at them!)
| nvader wrote:
| > To turn the chopsticks around when serving food so that the
| tips of the chopsticks that have touched one's mouth do not touch
| the food.
|
| Huh, this is something that I did consistently, believing it to
| be good etiquette.
| perlgeek wrote:
| Somewhere on the page they mentioned that there are separate
| serving chopsticks. Turning the eating chopsticks around is
| probably more normal when there aren't separate ones.
| tomcam wrote:
| I married an Asian woman I met at work. Our boss called me in to
| ask if I was serious about marrying her and I said yes. He asked
| if I wanted any advice and I sincerely answered that I did. Our
| marriage was necessarily disruptive because it meant that she
| would also defect. That would cause problems up and down the
| management chain. His advice was for me to learn how to use
| chopsticks. that's it. Nothing else.
|
| I spent months learning how to use them properly in secret and
| finally deployed my skills when I thought I was pretty good. She
| didn't notice. I then realized she almost always used a fork. In
| high school and college their meals were always served hastily
| and the students always brought a fork or spoon. they would eat
| standing up and had maybe five minutes to get the job done. No
| time for chopsticks.
|
| When her parents came out to visit us after we got married I
| frantically asked her advice about good chopstick etiquette. I
| very much did not wish to cause her to lose face. She didn't give
| a flying fuck. I honestly think I married one of the freest
| spirits in Asia, which is not necessarily a compliment.
|
| She said I was doing fine and literally refused to give me any
| feedback at all, incorrectly claiming she wasn't even that good.
| In fact, I think she only started to resume using chopsticks
| because I ended up finding them useful and now far prefer them to
| silverware.
|
| I ended up having to learn most of the customs by watching people
| in restaurants. Just learning how to set them down right took
| additional months because I noticed far too late that they set
| their chopsticks down in a sort of V shape which is much harder
| than one might expect. Also, I am left-handed, but taught myself
| to do it right handed on the theory of that would also help me
| not lose face in front of the in-laws. It turns out they are also
| highly unconventional and probably didn't care about my chopstick
| use one way or the other.
|
| When we had kids, I would learn that Asian children who don't
| learn to use chopsticks represent another way to lose face. It
| results in titanic power struggles within the family and makes
| everyone miserable. It's a little like forcing kids here in the
| USA to eat their vegetables. By this time I had learned of her
| disinterest, so neither of us bothered to teach them. All of our
| children naturally picked it up with no apparent effort,
| including one who is very severely developmentally disabled.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I feel like a lot of this is culture and class specific. I
| can't speak for Japan, but in China there are at least as many
| different levels of chopstick-using skill as anywhere in the
| west. Kids and elderly who can't pick up a peanut or a cherry
| tomato, people who find it entirely unproblematic to stab a
| slippery dumpling, people who think it's stupid to waste time
| trying to get fried rice into your mouth with chopsticks and
| just grab a spoon instead, people who dredge their way through
| the hotpot to find the treat they're looking for...
|
| I often get the sense that foreigners getting stressed about
| (or feeling pride in) how well they use chopsticks is a weird
| kind of orientalism. Because, like, who cares if someone shows
| up in a western restaurant and uses a spoon instead of knife to
| saw through something, or grabs a big hunk with a fork and
| takes a bite, leaving the rest on the fork? Maybe you wouldn't
| do it if you were having dinner with the queen, but any other
| context nobody cares. I'm sure parents still try to teach their
| kids to eat polite way, and maybe even feel a bit embarrassed
| if their kids show themselves to be less well-behaved than the
| neighbors', but that's a universal thing so, eh.
| tomcam wrote:
| lol describing me as an Orientalist will amuse my family to
| no end but you made some cogent observations. All I can say
| is: face is a big thing in China. I respect my in-laws
| hugely. I did not want them to lose face nor to be made to
| feel uncomfortable on my behalf if I could help it. As far as
| I can tell Orientalism and pride had nothing to do with it.
| Or maybe you're right and I am a deeply closeted chiaboo.
| I'll watch some anime or whatever and get right back to you.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| Sorry, that wasn't really what I was getting at.
|
| The thing I find interesting with orientalism is that it
| has a mirror in chauvinism from the other direction, both
| sides reinforcing the idea that there is something special
| about the cultural norms of people from East Asia in
| particular. It's almost as if there is a deliberate effort
| to reify cultural differences in a way that feels
| counterproductive.
|
| I think these forces are especially noticeable living as a
| migrant to this part of the world, in that you sometimes
| find people gushing over you for being able to use what is
| actually a pretty unremarkable set of utensils or
| occasionally shitting on you for not knowing an obscure bit
| of etiquette that locals rarely perform. Either way it's
| just another form of the "western people like this, Chinese
| people like that" discourse which at best is vapid and at
| worst straight-up racist. I don't think it really helps to
| build a common sense of humanity.
|
| Anyway, I feel like this kind of article is representative
| of the problem, in that it serves to create anxiety that
| there is some secret etiquette that must be performed in
| order to not be seen as an uncultured barbarian. Again, I
| have no experience with Japan so maybe they really are just
| That Damn Serious about how they use their chopsticks, but
| I doubt it. At least for me it was quite reassuring to find
| that - outside of the folks who really did hold chauvinist
| and/or racist views - most people in China cared no more
| about how I ate than how anyone else ate, and that the
| range of what was socially acceptable eating for all people
| was wide enough to make it clear that these sorts of
| articles tend to be either deliberately divisive or out-of-
| touch.
| tomcam wrote:
| > it was quite reassuring to find that - outside of the
| folks who really did hold chauvinist and/or racist views
| - most people in China cared no more about how I ate than
| how anyone else ate
|
| OK I agree completely. You will see atrocious manners in
| an average bar there. But my in-laws are brilliant
| scientists and thoughtful, gracious people. My mother in
| law is my hero. If I can reduce any friction in her life
| I will. Likewise when they visited us they were always
| closely observant of my behavior.
|
| I think some of what you are characterizing as chauvinism
| or Orientalism is what I view as courtesy? I could very
| well be wrong on that one or misinterpreting you.
| cobbzilla wrote:
| You're both making valid and sincere points.
|
| I think the confusion may be in a situation (regardless
| of culture) where one knows that a loved one's family has
| a high regard for courtesy and manners, and you're
| willing and eager to please them, sometimes this desire
| could be mistaken by others for an obsession or
| "reification" of the specific culture of the family.
|
| I have enjoyed the politeness of the comments from you
| both and appreciate your courtesy!
| zeristor wrote:
| This raises the question of what are the funeral rites.
|
| They piece through the ashes of a cremation and pass them between
| each other?
|
| I know the modern style of conveyor belt cremation is a bit
| impersonal.
|
| It'll take me a while to process this.
| globular-toast wrote:
| My partner and I share everything we eat. I think we have passed
| food between chopsticks before. What's the "proper" way to do
| this? Just reach in to the other bowl?
|
| Also wondering how many of these apply in a Chinese setting or
| any other chopstick culture. Are there a different set of taboos?
| yubblegum wrote:
| Related? https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h02713/japan-ranks-
| last...
| nssnsjsjsjs wrote:
| Couple of funeral related ones, couple of odd customs, and the
| rest are "imagine what an overbearing parent would say to their 6
| yo using chopsticks"
| commanderj wrote:
| Would it not have been easier to just write down what is actually
| "allowed" :D
| zkmon wrote:
| > Kuwaebashi - To take the tips of the chopsticks in one's mouth.
|
| Does it mean without food?
| anonu wrote:
| This would make a great poster to give to our local sushi bar
| chef/friend.
|
| edit: Gemini makes great infographics https://imgur.com/a/V2D9VlM
| Hasnep wrote:
| Except a bunch of those diagrams are showing the wrong thing,
| but yeah, other than that it's good.
| kristianc wrote:
| Yeah, definitely not the "straight in" one...
| october8140 wrote:
| This is why Japan is not having kids. They are more worried about
| rules to make everyone's life miserable.
| Hasnep wrote:
| Sure, and American table manners are the cause of rising
| fascism, there's a whole Wikipedia article on all their rules.
| [1] They're more worried about elbows on the table than the
| increase in authoritarianism.
|
| See, I can make up dumb shit too.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_manners_in_North_America
| renewiltord wrote:
| Both of you are now eligible for sociology PhDs.
| Congratulations, doctors, on having defended your theses.
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| Fairly much common sense advice, with some cultural taboos like
| resting chopsticks pointing to the right.
|
| I have always been a little embarrassed by my own use of
| chopsticks. When I was three or four years old a waitress in a
| Chinese restaurant helped me figure out a way to hold them that
| worked for me. Long story short, I am in my 70s and I have very
| effectively been getting food efficiently into my mouth with
| chopsticks my whole life - with horrible style.
| ghaff wrote:
| The chopstick against the knuckle doesn't work for me I use the
| fingertip.
| K0balt wrote:
| I am a yokobashi offender.
|
| How rude is it? When the food is not well prepared for chopsticks
| it's really useful. But I do see why it's rude, because it does
| imply that the food is not quite right. The Chinese restaurants
| in my country seem to have a problem making properly sticky rice.
| bagacrap wrote:
| Does it bother anyone else when people use their teeth to scrape
| food off a metal utensil (rather than lips, or teeth to food)? I
| wish English had a specific word for that affront.
| cake-rusk wrote:
| Cringe?
| bakies wrote:
| Biting a fork is a huge pet peeve of mine.
| PyWoody wrote:
| I'm so glad I'm not the only one who gets annoyed by this.
|
| I was once at a table with someone who was eating tomato soup
| by putting the spoon into their mouth, bitting it, and then
| pulling the spoon out. I was losing my mind listening to it.
|
| Dip, _ting_ , dip, _ting_. Dip, _OUCH!_.
|
| They chipped their tooth. They chipped a tooth eating tomato
| soup.
| lijok wrote:
| Are these real or nonsensical ones like crossing the fork and
| knife on your plate means you didn't enjoy it
| rdiddly wrote:
| OK, I was probably never going to visit Japan, and this convinced
| me the rest of the way.
| RestartKernel wrote:
| That's like avoiding the West because of fancy cutlery rules.
| Japanese people are not as thin-skinned as lists like these
| lead you to believe.
| falsemyrmidon wrote:
| The two about death are the only ones that matter. You also get
| a huge pass on a lot of social expectations for being a
| foreigner, especially if you make even a small attempt to
| conform and be polite.
| untrust wrote:
| Technically in the USA: It is impolite to begin eating without
| first washing your hands, rest your elbows on the table, chew
| with your mouth open, double dip in shared dishes, leave your
| napkin on the table, and also all sorts of rules about which
| spoon to use when. None of these rules are followed by your
| average American and nobody really cares, I imagine it's
| similar to these.
| xandrius wrote:
| And that's totally fine :)
| canjobear wrote:
| The fact that this was originally written in Japanese suggests
| that most Japanese people don't already know this list.
| failrate wrote:
| Some of these are considered rude, but ibd I do a lot of them,
| anyway e.g. rubbing disposable chopsticks to remove splinters,
| because a chopstick splinter in the gums is miserable, and using
| chopsticks to cut apart food. They seem less like faux pas and
| more like strategies. Plus, not Japanese.
| lacoolj wrote:
| So it's the age of AI. And this seems like a great new benchmark!
| Lots of text, structured but each item a separate "task". Each
| thing requiring its own new image + textual representation.
|
| I copy + pasted the whole article (minus the few included images)
| and added this prompt in Gemini 3 Pro:
|
| > Take each of the following and add an image representing the
| act being described. The image should be very basic. Think of
| signs in buildings - exit signs, bathroom door signs, no smoking
| signs, etc. That style of simplicity. Just simple, flat, elegant
| vector graphic lines for the chopsticks, hands, bowls, etc.
|
| Google Gemini output:
| https://gemini.google.com/share/11df1bc53e3d
|
| I think this is pretty dang good for a one-shot run. I also ran
| this through Claude Opus 4.6 Extended (doesn't generate images
| directly, so it made an HTML page and some vector icons). Not as
| good as Gemini IMO. See here if curious:
| https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/8b6589b3-4da4-4fd5-b862-c...
|
| Anyone able to do this better with a different prompt or model
| (or both)?
| xandrius wrote:
| Nice that you discovered LLM, welcome.
|
| But next time, keep your findings for a thread related to the
| topic of LLM wonders, not when it's unrelated, such as
| chopsticks.
| kwar13 wrote:
| > Ya shiIp miZhu Oshikomibashi (also known as Ip miZhu
| komibashi) > To use the chopsticks to push food deep inside one's
| mouth.
|
| That made me chuckle
| xandrius wrote:
| Sheeet, seen quite a few people do it (not sure if Japanese or
| another culture) and just ingrained it as proper (just like
| slurping is in Japan). Gotta rethink that, lol.
| eloisant wrote:
| There are only 2 that really matter, those marked with "serious"
| because they remind of funeral rites (passing food from
| chopsticks to chopsticks or sticking them in rice).
|
| Japanese people will tell you about those because they really
| don't like seeing people do it.
|
| The rest, well, don't worry about it.
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