[HN Gopher] Our commitment to Windows quality
___________________________________________________________________
Our commitment to Windows quality
Author : hadrien01
Score : 270 points
Date : 2026-03-20 19:16 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blogs.windows.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blogs.windows.com)
| PaulHoule wrote:
| "...we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting
| with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad."
|
| Great!
| ceejayoz wrote:
| "... by making them _necessary_ entry points! Muahahaha! "
| palmotea wrote:
| > "... by making them necessary entry points! Muahahaha!"
|
| Starting with Windows 11 26H2, the Start Menu will be removed
| and replaced with Copilot. In order to use a locally hosted
| app, an externally hosted LLM will need to be instructed to
| launch it. The reliability is phenomenal: our testing has
| shown it can launch the right app with 95% accuracy.
| amlib wrote:
| Users will also need to drink a Monster(tm) verification
| can every time they launch the start menu if they do not
| have a Premium AI PRO Ultra MAX account. Users may chose to
| skip verification process if they agree to the new EULA
| where it is stipulated that they must meet a weekly quota
| of Big Macs(tm) stamps. Failing that your Copilot(tm)
| Account will enter lock-down mode where a full document,
| body and facial scan must be "performed" to recover it.
| cardamomo wrote:
| Great? Maybe! But this doesn't say, "We are _removing_ Copilot
| from apps. "
| PaulHoule wrote:
| My personal opinion is "Copilot is pretty good as a chatbot
| [1] but don't waste your time trying anything multimodal." So
| I don't mind it at all, in fact I like it enough that I
| installed the app on my phone. I've got no interest in having
| it rewrite stuff for me in Word or for LinkedIn though.
|
| On the other hand, Microsoft is famous for killing something
| good (like OneNote) but spamming the UI with numerous entry
| points that will make you think "this is some piece of crap
| that Microsoft is spamming because nobody in their right mind
| would want it." That they are getting some self-awareness of
| this is a good sign.
|
| [1] I'd say Google's AI Mode gives consistently better
| answers (like use "vite-ignore" instead of writing a Vite
| plugin that doesn't work) than copilot with the reservation
| that if Google seems to get uncomfortable about a
| conversation it will end the conversation with a ten pack of
| search results whereas Copilot tries to simulate a person
| with healthy boundaries (e.g. "I will help you write a
| romance story but I won't help you write a sex scene")
| g947o wrote:
| My own anecdotal experience is that Copilot doesn't even do
| a good job as a chatbot. I usually only use it in a few
| occasions where I don't have access to ChatGPT/Claude.
|
| And I could tell that. In one instance where I asked it to
| write a script that does a bunch of things, it provided a
| series of steps to do in the terminal. This is very off my
| typical experience with other chatbots. I immediately went
| to Claude which gave me a complete script that does exactly
| what I need.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Metrics must have showed disappointing results and they're
| trying to brand this as a consumer friendly move
| SilasX wrote:
| Ugh. They horribly borked Notepad. The whole reason I use it is
| because it's dumb and simple. The moment you change it into a
| full-featured rich text editor with AI assistants and
| autocorrect ... you should just make it another app, because
| it's solving a different problem.
|
| At the very least, don't forget my font setting on the update.
| pndy wrote:
| Nothing on limiting dependence on online account/services and
| forced hardware requirements. The rest sounds like every text
| people could read for decades during Windows installation.
|
| Sorry Microsoft, some people already transfer to a different
| train because you offered a crazy ride.
| gzread wrote:
| Listen to their actions, not their words.
| satiric wrote:
| Of course the proof in the pudding is in the eating, but just
| saying that they want to do this stuff is at least a slight
| improvement over before, where we mostly just saw apathy and
| enshittification. It's also a promise that people can hold them
| to if they fail.
| stego-tech wrote:
| This. Microsoft has said similar things before, and always
| tripled down on bad behavior afterward. Their priority is
| business outcomes, not user experiences or support, and that's
| why even this non-apology makes it clear the stuff customers,
| engineers, and support staff hate - invasive telemetry,
| outright surveillance/spyware, online-only requirements, AI-
| everywhere, constant arbitrary deprecation of APIs and
| endpoints for external tools to drive internal product
| adoption, refusal to support consumer technologies long-term
| (MCE, WMR) or do things contrary to everyone else (print
| drivers) - isn't actually getting addressed.
|
| Don't listen to the smooth talk. Plan an exit strategy now,
| before you need it later.
| hbn wrote:
| > Plan an exit strategy now, before you need it later.
|
| The idea that we'll all be forced off of Windows one day
| sounds like a dream, but so far we continue to be in a state
| where myself and many other are long past the point of
| wanting to leave, but we can't for some reason or another.
|
| Microsoft knows that, which is why they've been able to do
| whatever they want and not worry about the consequences.
| daveguy wrote:
| I keep a VM with windows on it. Unfortunately you have to
| purchase a license. Hopefully I'll be able to upgrade it
| like they've allowed since ~Vista. But now anyone tracking
| user agents knows I'm not using Microsoft. I didn't even
| put a browser on the VM. I have used the VM under 10 times
| over the past year and that's usually just to use Quick
| Assist to help others with their Microslop OS. Sometimes to
| deal with a particularly obnoxious excel file.
| stego-tech wrote:
| Microsoft won't force you off, but everyone - and every
| business - has a line in the sand _somewhere_. In my
| experience, most folks don 't realize where it is until
| it's too late, and by then the costs are far higher
| (opportunity, financial, time) than they would've been with
| a defined strategy.
|
| Even if you're not leaving the ecosystem anytime soon, you
| should always know where those lines are and what the
| landscape looks like on the other side of things.
| nathanaldensr wrote:
| "Our Commitment to Gaslighting Everyone with Corporate Marketing
| Language"
| Someone1234 wrote:
| They're saying all the right things here.
|
| Fixing long-standing complaints, removing Copilot from obnoxious
| places, improvements to Windows Update and Windows Explorer
| stability/microstutter/lag, etc.
|
| I congratulate them on seeing sense, and I congratulate Apple on
| another victory with the Neo. Kind of frustrating that's what it
| took for Microsoft to finally listen to their userbase.
| binsquare wrote:
| Don't congratulate yet until you see actual outcomes.
|
| The author of this commitment is the same person (Pavan
| Davuluri) spearheading move of Windows into an Agentic OS:
| https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft/windows-11/windows-...
| xvector wrote:
| Absolutely nothing wrong with an "agentic OS", agentic UX is
| the future of personal computing. The ideal is that something
| intelligent understands what you want to do and gets it done.
|
| Unless you really think we've reached the pinnacle of user
| interface with repetitive clicking around and menus.
|
| The problem is with shoving AI down user's throats. Make it
| an option, not the only option.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| We've already been through this when people a decade ago
| thought _voice_ was the future of the computer.
|
| When that completely didn't work, we thought that
| _augmented reality_ was the future of the computer, which
| also didn 't work out.
|
| You need a screen to be able to verify what you're doing
| (try shopping on Amazon without a screen), which means you
| also need a UI around it, which then means voice (and by
| extension agents which also function by conversation) is
| slower and dumber than the UI, every time.
|
| Meanwhile I have yet to see any brand excited to be
| integrated with ChatGPT and Claude. Unlike a consumer;
| being a purely "reasoning-based" agent, they're most likely
| to ignore everything aesthetic and pick the bottom of the
| barrel cheapest option for any category. How do you
| convince an AI to show your specific product to a customer?
| You don't.
| as1mov wrote:
| > The ideal is that something intelligent understands what
| you want to do and gets it done.
|
| I think you and I have very different meanings of
| "intelligent", "understands" and "gets it done"
| MeetingsBrowser wrote:
| What would an agentic UX look like that is better than the
| current OS experience?
|
| typing "open hackernews" into copilot instead of clicking
| the browser and typing hackernews?
|
| 99% of OS interactions already boil down to 2 clicks and a
| search phrase.
| owlmirror wrote:
| - "summarize the discussions on hacker news of last week
| based on what I would find interesting".
|
| - "Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest
| different options"
|
| - "Look at my household budget and find ways to be more
| frugal."
|
| There are thousands of things I can think of when it
| comes to how an agentic OS would work better than the
| current Screen Keyboard paradigm. I mean all these things
| I could now do with Claude or Codex and some of these
| things I already do with these tools.
| dijksterhuis wrote:
| > I mean all these things I could now do with Claude or
| Codex and some of these things I already do with these
| tools.
|
| huh? ... this reads to me like you don't need an
| "agentic" OS to do the things you'd want to use an
| "agentic" OS for..?
|
| like... it seems you just don't want a keyboard to do the
| same things you've already been doing? ... is that the
| crux of it?
| MeetingsBrowser wrote:
| Neither of those really have to do with the OS though.
| For example:
|
| > Plan my summer vacation with my family, suggest
| different options
|
| What part of this does an agentic OS help with? My OS
| doesn't know my travel preferences, family size, work
| schedule, etc.
|
| These are more appropriate tasks for a smart assistant.
|
| What specifically does an agentic OS UX look like beyond
| giving claude access to local files and a browser?
| malfist wrote:
| I don't want those. Why read books when you can have an
| ai summarize it in two paragraphs for you? Because I want
| to know and learn and enrich myself.
| dijksterhuis wrote:
| when i hear bollocks like "agentic UX" i think of things
| like this
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmz67ErIRa4
|
| i feel like someone high up in microsoft probably has
| this pinned in a epic or something somewhere
| ACow_Adonis wrote:
| Even theoretical AI still has the other mind problem from
| economics.
|
| Communicating and predicting desires, preferences,
| thoughts, feelings from one mind to another is difficult.
|
| Fundamentally the easiest way of getting what you want is
| to be able to do it yourself.
|
| Introduce an agent, and now you get the same utility issues
| of trying to guess what gifts to buy someone for their
| birthday. Sure every now and then you get the marketers
| "surprise and delight", but the main experience is
| relatively middling, often frustrating and confusing, and
| if you have any skill or knowledge in The area or ability
| to do it yourself, ultimately frustrating.
| Ucalegon wrote:
| It all depends on where the the AI is running. The problem
| with the idea, is that for the majority of Windows boxes
| where it would be running do not have the bare metal
| hardware to support local models and thus it would be in
| the cloud and all of the issues associated with that when
| it comes to privacy/security. It would be neat, given
| MSFT's footprint, to look to develop small models, running
| locally, with user transparency when it comes to actions,
| but that doesn't align with MSFT's core objectives.
| okokwhatever wrote:
| Five stars comment
| wmf wrote:
| AFAIK the existing Copilot features always use the NPU
| and do not fall back to the cloud. Given that Windows 12
| will require an NPU I don't see why it would fall back
| either.
| Ucalegon wrote:
| This is true for only features of Copilot+. The issue
| that MSFT faces, especially as it pushes Copilot
| EVERYWHERE is the reality of the majority if the hardware
| running Windows does not, and will not have, the NPU
| required for 12, nor is there the actual consumer
| purchasing power, to upgrade hardware to have an NPU.
| This a reality that MSFT just does not seem want to deal
| with while the push the technology onto consumers because
| its not based off of the reality of the install base they
| are dealing with but rather trying to justify their
| strategic investment into AI in the B2C space without
| doing the proper product market fit to justify it.
| fainpul wrote:
| I think something like this is the goal, and there's still
| a long way to go:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV01B5kVsC0
| lich_king wrote:
| > The ideal is that something intelligent understands what
| you want to do and gets it done.
|
| Maybe? For a couple of decades, we believed that computers
| you can talk to are the future of computing. Every sci-fi
| show worth a dime perpetuated that trope. And yet, even
| though the technology is here, we still usually prefer to
| read and type.
|
| We might find out the same with some of the everyday uses
| of agentic tech: it may be less work to do something than
| to express your desires to an agent perfectly well. For
| example, agentic shopping is a use case some companies are
| focusing on, but I can't imagine it being easier to
| describe my sock taste preferences to an agent than click
| around for 5 minutes and find the stripe pattern I like.
|
| And that's if we ignore that agents today are basically
| chaos monkeys that sometimes do what you want, sometimes rm
| -rf /, and sometimes spend all your money on a
| cryptocurrency scam. So for the foreseeable future, I most
| certainly don't want my OS to be "agentic". I want it to be
| deterministic until you figure out the chaos monkey stuff.
| threetonesun wrote:
| I think your last paragraph is the real issue that will
| forever crush improvements over clicking on stuff. Once
| you get to "buy me socks" you're just entering some
| different advertising domain. We already see it with very
| simple things like getting Siri to play a song. Two songs
| with the same name, the more popular one will win, apply
| that simple logic to everything and put a pay to play
| model in it and there's your "agentic" OS of the future.
| Forgeties79 wrote:
| Exactly. It would be like making all your purchasing
| decisions based on the first hit you get on Google
| the_snooze wrote:
| We've had computing technology that clearly understands
| what the user wants to do. It's called a command line
| interface. No guessing, no recommendations, no dark
| patterns, no bullshit.
| cyberax wrote:
| There's nothing wrong with an "agentic OS" if it's built on
| top of a regular good OS.
|
| There's everything wrong when "agentic" means that the
| regular bread-and-butter functionality of the OS becomes
| unusable.
| maplethorpe wrote:
| "Agentic typewriters are the future of typewriting. The
| idea is that something intelligent understands what you
| want to type and types it for you. Unless you really think
| we've reached the pinnacle of typewriter interfaces with
| repetitive key taps and carriage returns."
|
| See how that sounds a bit silly? It's because it presents a
| false dichotomy. That our choice is between either the
| current state of interfaces or an agentic system which
| strips away your autonomy and does it for you.
| runjake wrote:
| I can't upvote this comment enough.
|
| The only thing I'd add is that not only did he tweet the
| infamous tweet that caused the backlash, Pavan ridiculed
| those in the backlash (since deleted). Also, Satya still
| spews the same "agentic OS" narrative as recent as last week.
|
| So, I hope for the best, but I don't plan on taking them at
| their word.
| iknowstuff wrote:
| I missed the drama! https://www.windowscentral.com/microsof
| t/windows-11/windows-... this thing?
| dgxyz wrote:
| Everyone at MSFT who is senior is a lying piece of shit these
| days. I remember on here Satya being treated like the second
| coming of Jesus due to his promises. Any comments against him
| were downvoted.
|
| Look where we are now.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > They're saying all the right things here.
|
| They are not saying "we will remove the mandate to use a
| Microsoft Account." By itself, that shows their "care" is
| purely corporate, likely driven to calm down furious OEMs who
| will happily remind them Apple doesn't need an Apple Account to
| use a now-cheap Mac.
|
| Also, because Nadella can't stand the word, I'll say it right
| here: Microslop is still making Winslop to help people make
| Officeslop to then upload to Slopdrive.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Good point, and that one has actually caused logistical
| headaches. If someone tries to set up a new out-of-box
| computer without an internet connect, well, you just cannot.
| Even the previously working bypass has been removed in a
| recent update.
|
| And, yes, I am aware that Pro/Enterprise don't suffer from
| this, but a LOT of computers sold are Windows Home/OEM
| licenses. It impacts a ton of people.
| itopaloglu83 wrote:
| I'm sorry but I need to see it to believe it. Otherwise who can
| explain, how the Windows Explorer struggles to list 20 files.
|
| How is it even possible to spend 4-5 seconds to show a list of
| files in a local freaking folder?
| rdedev wrote:
| Right now my start menu randomly crashes. Like all I see is a
| black box with no icons. I'm impressed with how even basic
| functionalities break pretty often
| itopaloglu83 wrote:
| Reminds me of the new task manager not responding. Like
| really?
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| The Windows computer I have to use at work takes over 15
| seconds to start the new calculator app. The old calculator
| launched instantly.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| I've seen that too. I discovered Calculator was doing a DNS
| lookup for some reason, and that slow DNS resolution was
| the cause...
|
| That's a _why_ , but it raises more questions than it does
| answers.
| 9991 wrote:
| Arithmetic may have updated.
| evilduck wrote:
| Nah, analytics. Some PM needs to know which operands are
| most used so they can optimize the calculator layout to
| improve the UX. And for the least used operands, they'll
| take a pragmatic stance and remove them to clean up the
| interface.
| Intermernet wrote:
| Now with new Plus++
| jimbokun wrote:
| An LLM writes and compiles a new calculator app from
| scratch every time you open it.
| rob74 wrote:
| Well honestly, that's the easiest problem to fix: just
| install any of the dozens of excellent and stable third party
| file managers. I for instance am (or was, while I still used
| Windows) a fan of Total Commander (actually, when I started
| using it, it was called Windows Commander). As a bonus,
| you'll be spared the useless UI and usability changes
| inflicted upon you with every new Windows version.
| daveguy wrote:
| If you're going to replace tools as fundamental as the file
| manager, you may as well switch to a stable and fast
| operating system like most Linux distributions or Mac.
| rob74 wrote:
| Yeah, that's what I did, eventually, but some people
| still need some software that only runs under Windows, or
| want to play games without messing around with Proton
| etc. etc.
| ffwd wrote:
| I find that this happens when you enter folders that have
| media files like audio files, video files and so on. One way
| to fix it is to enter one such folder, then remove all
| columns (like file name, date modified - those columns) and
| remove all the columns that are media metadata columns.
| Things like track length, artist, contributing artist or
| whatever else, then click in the File explorer menu on the 3
| dots icon (**) and select View tab, then click 'Apply to
| folders'. This will apply the column and view settings that
| you just applied to all such folders.
|
| Now all folders with media files open immediately. Also if
| you want no wait for video files folders, right click in the
| folder and select 'View -> Details or View -> List or some
| other option where it doesn't create thumbnails and it'll
| load even quicker.
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| > remove all columns (like file name, date modified - those
| columns) and remove all the columns that are media metadata
| columns.
|
| Surely you don't mean remove all columns, and if you did
| you wouldn't have to also specify removing media metadata
| columns?
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| I feel like most interns would be smart enough to know that
| you should lazy load these metrics. It's incredible that MS
| put this into production.
| z500 wrote:
| It's not just media files. I'm forced to use Windows 11 on
| my work PC, and I had to disable the new shell extensions
| to make the file explorer usable again. It's noticeably
| faster without the new UI.
| itopaloglu83 wrote:
| Looking up media details is of course one of the main
| reasons. Thank you for sharing this information. However,
| all the folders are already configured as general folders
| and this one specifically has a bunch of PDF files.
|
| When such basic tasks are failing spectacularly, nobody can
| have any confidence that complex things can be achieved
| reliably. Instead of spying on their users and trying to
| squeeze more and more money from them, they should first
| focus on making a great product and work on making it
| better, not researching ways to enshitify things.
| evilduck wrote:
| It's less work at this point to just wipe the drive and
| install linux.
| sunaookami wrote:
| This was never a problem in older Windows versions.
| 12_throw_away wrote:
| > remove all columns (like file name, date modified - those
| columns) and remove all the columns that are media metadata
| columns [...] click in the File explorer menu on the 3 dots
| icon (*) and select View tab, then click 'Apply to folders'
| [...] click in the folder and select 'View -> Details or
| View -> List or some other option
|
| I'm sorry, this is very funny to me in the context of the
| person upthread arguing about how great "agentic OSes" are.
| Some people seem to believe that we're living in the
| future, but I'm pretty sure we're still stuck in Windows
| '95.
| jimbokun wrote:
| Maybe there's an LLM learning about sorting from first
| principles every time you click to change the sort column.
| winwang wrote:
| ...I almost thought it was a parody site!
| malfist wrote:
| Are they?
|
| I see nothing about privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts
| and continued locking down of windows that they've been doing.
|
| I see that they're bringing back _some_ of the taskbar options
| you had in windows 10 (termed it as "introducing"), they
| promise to make Explorer faster, great. But they also say
| they're bringing more AI into windows and something about
| widgets that I don't think anyone cares about.
|
| And lastly they're promising to revamp the place where you go
| to rant at microsoft, but they're not promising to actually
| listen to feedback.
| wmf wrote:
| _privacy, spying, forced microsoft accounts..._
|
| Yep. That stuff makes money (via upsells) so it will never be
| removed.
| karel-3d wrote:
| it's funny because from Apple side, the OS is not that rosy
| either, it's buggier it has ever been.
|
| (that's an overstatement, early OS X were buggy too, but they
| just switched to Unix after OS9, so, understandable.)
|
| it's just better than Windows, which is just aggressively bad.
| (and I guess Linux is eating their gamers market with Proton?
| but I am not a gamer)
| thewebguyd wrote:
| Can't help but feel like Microsoft is getting pressured by
| the laptop OEMs to make Windows not suck, because of the
| MacBook Neo is going to eat all their lunches.
| philistine wrote:
| It's death by a thousand cuts for Windows.
|
| - The OS is getting buggier, with every large update
| getting press coverage on scary bugs.
|
| - The OS is getting overbearing; constant nagging for
| upsells on Microsoft products with terrible attach rates.
|
| - The OS is getting focused on hype; the latest trend is
| AI?Let's force a new button on people that will break
| decades-old workflows. Let's put AI _everywhere_.
|
| - The OS is getting slow; there's no focus on speed and the
| place where 85% of the market resides (laptops) is getting
| completely trounced by Apple Silicon.
|
| - The OS is getting squeezed; under 300$ it's all terrible
| _e-waste in six months_ Chromebooks. Over 500$ Apple is
| aggressively entering the market with the Neo. Over 1,000$
| Apple has owned a commanding share of the profits there for
| decades.
|
| There are 994 more problems with Windows but I've made my
| point; there's just no end in sight to the problems with
| Windows. I haven't mentioned it's become a minor part of
| Microsoft's profits!
| kiicia wrote:
| This is just cheap damage control, just wait and see if they
| actually do all of those things correctly. Slow file explorer
| was an issue since very beginning of windows 11 and they "fix"
| it only now? But they took time to add copilot to snippet tool?
| naikrovek wrote:
| An optimist! I love to see it.
|
| Saying and doing are very different. They have passed through
| the "fuck around" phase, and are entering the "find out" phase
| of this AI journey. Lots of companies are, suddenly.
|
| My employer _trained us all_ on the Gartner hype cycle, tested
| us on how to remain level-headed before and during the peak of
| unreasonable expectations and now every single manager in the
| company is drooling over AI, saying that "this is the future,
| join us or find another job" and I cannot wait for the curve to
| come back down to a sane level where intelligence rules
| behavior as much as it used to. We'll see.
|
| We've certainly done the "fucking around" and now we'll see if
| we "find out" enough to regain our sanity and our humanity.
| jacquesm wrote:
| All this means is that it will go underwater.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| If the people in charge of Windows have to solicit customer
| feeedback to fund out what's wrong, then I guarantee you the real
| problems won't be fixed.
|
| These people don't even know their own product.
| VectorLock wrote:
| Big PR pushback against the Microslop sobriquet.
| itopaloglu83 wrote:
| Not a course correction, but a reaction from some engineers who
| are tired of getting mocked by everyone.
| hyperhello wrote:
| "We hear you and will improve quality" is bullshit code. It means
| "we figured out our strategy long ago and you're not it".
| daft_pink wrote:
| to me it went off the rails when I couldn't get local search from
| the start menu in windows 8.1
| ivl wrote:
| > More taskbar customization, including vertical and top
| positions: Repositioning the taskbar is one of the top asks we've
| heard from you. We are introducing the ability to reposition it
| to the top or sides of your screen, making it easier to
| personalize your workspace.
|
| I wonder if this will include being able to put it on the non-
| primary display once again. It's not mentioned, but that was one
| of the biggest frustrations with Windows 11. It seems their focus
| is exclusively on single display devices.
|
| It also ruined my flow for my flight sim until I found a
| workaround. The fullscreen window wishes to launch to the primary
| display, which means losing the useful bits of the taskbar.
|
| I love what they're saying, but my faith in them is very, very is
| low.
| wvenable wrote:
| I cannot recommend StartAllBack enough.
| ivl wrote:
| I used that for a time, but it's licensing made me move to
| WindHawk.
| wvenable wrote:
| What's wrong with it's licensing?
| hbn wrote:
| I recently managed to configure StartAllBack to make
| practically everything look like Windows 7, and it's improved
| the experience ten times over
| wvenable wrote:
| I have also configured my Windows 11 to look and act like
| Windows 7. I like my taskbar to be a list of open windows
| with labels. The tray area and the start menu is replicated
| across all my monitors.
|
| I also have set the classic right-click menus.
|
| There are some things about Windows 11 I like but a lot of
| it seems to be designed by people who use Mac OS (graphic
| designers).
| lstodd wrote:
| I can't believe I'm reading about those things being presented
| as new and exciting in 2026.
|
| I had to dig around because I could not remember since when I
| take this stuff - putting as many toolbars as you'd like
| anywhere on multiple monitors you feel like as granted and yes,
| 14 years ago xfce 4.10 was released. Time flies, I guess.
| paradox460 wrote:
| I was expecting a 404
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| This is good to hear, as someone who has used basically nothing
| but Windows since 2000. I haven't stepped off the Windows train
| yet. I use Linux at arm's length for my homelab's hypervisor and
| at work, but my daily driver is still Windows 10.
|
| I must be the only one to write something like this on HN, but I
| sincerely like Windows' technical fundamentals and architecture;
| its design is sensible and extensible. And very frankly I prefer
| the developer experience on Windows, where you can write a
| (relatively) high-quality native desktop application with purely
| first-party tooling and release a single, tiny (~10^4 bytes)
| executable that quite literally runs anywhere. The Windows API
| surface area is _huge_ and developers can write entire multi-
| domain programs without ever looking for a third-party library.
|
| This probably sounds like a lot of copium, but I feel like recent
| events like the rising costs of memory and competition like the
| MacBook Neo will light a fire under Microsoft's arse. I _really_
| hope some of the AI overboard in Windows 11 is rolled back over
| the near future. They should migrate core Windows applications
| back to native and CLI technologies, actually support and
| maintain these without chasing the next big thing, and release
| frameworks for safer compiled languages like Rust, Zig, and Odin,
| and allocate more resources to F#.
| mfro wrote:
| Windows is still a solid 'gets out of the way' operating system
| (with numerous tweaks, customizations, and stripping) when it
| works. If they focus on fixing UX issues and improving
| stability and performance, it may be enough to slow the rise of
| desktop Linux.
|
| Better support for F#, or really any language other than C# is
| a longshot though. Those resources were likely 'reallocated' to
| AI R&D indefinitely.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| > Windows is still a solid 'gets out of the way' operating
| system
|
| A good way to put it.
|
| There are third-party tools that Microsoft really need to
| adopt to make Windows a bit nicer (WizTree, VoidTools
| Everything, adopt improvements from Total Commander, make
| more PowerToys default), but broadly it is still a decent OS.
| There are issues like slow `CloseHandle()` because of
| Defender (which needs to be a bit _less_ zealous), and maybe
| more first-party adoption of WinGet.
|
| On the other hand, every time I use desktop Linux I get some
| paper cut because some edge case that I just don't ever think
| about is broken on Linux, whether it be my multi-monitor high
| pixel density layout, my USB audio interface and peripherals,
| or my touchpad sensitivity and gestures that Windows was
| widely derided for in the early 2010s and suddenly after
| 'Precision Touchpads'[1] no one ever complained about again,
| or random GPU glitches even on Intel/AMD integrated graphics
| that I have literally never seen on the Windows desktop, or
| poor battery life (Windows somehow gets 2-3x the battery life
| of Linux).
| bigyabai wrote:
| As someone that ran the Insider channel from ~2014-2019,
| Windows has been in a real weal-and-woe situation. Some
| parts are so hopelessly bad that they can never be fixed
| (eg. UI frameworks) while others are extremely promising
| and justify using Windows for ordinary work (eg. WSL). It's
| easy to subscribe to either extreme and assume that Windows
| is doomed or perfect because some specific feature exists.
|
| Five years of Windows Insider made me pretty weary, though.
| Being downstream of Microsoft's changes is like reading tea
| leaves, WSL2 had broken networking for _four years_ before
| any fix ever came up. I can appreciate the work that
| Microsoft does to ship a stable OS to millions of users,
| but my impatience got the better of me in the end. I
| switched to Linux waiting for WSL2 to get fixed, and while
| it 's not a perfect experience it _does_ consistently
| improve in a transparent and open manner.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > I must be the only one to write something like this on HN,
| but I sincerely like Windows' technical fundamentals and
| architecture; its design is sensible and extensible.
|
| Nah, NT always had... _mostly_... good guts. (The filesystem
| layer apparently made some really poor life choices, but
| otherwise.) As a die hard Unix guy, I 've always been quite
| fond of NT's core tech. It's just made by a terrible company
| and shoved inside of an operating system that actively hates
| me. But the core OS is cool.
| delta_p_delta_x wrote:
| > The filesystem layer apparently made some really poor life
| choices
|
| NTFS is plenty fast, even for thousands of small files; it is
| the Windows Defender file system filter driver that slows
| things down. Specifically, it slows down CloseHandle[1].
|
| > NT's core tech
|
| I'm not just talking about NT. I think most of the user mode
| is great, too. Office blows the pants off most other 'office'
| suites. D3D is generally very forward-looking, and many
| extensions are released on D3D first, sometimes _years_
| before they 're ported to Vulkan (ray-tracing, mesh shaders,
| descriptor heaps, etc). Windows has had a superb low-latency
| audio subsystem in WASAPI since Vista, which is something
| like a decade before Linux got Pipewire. There are many other
| examples of random cool stuff in Windows that Linux
| 'rediscovered independently' but Windows got there much
| earlier just because of the sheer install base and surface
| area.
|
| [1]: https://gregoryszorc.com/blog/2021/04/06/surprisingly-
| slow/
| goalieca wrote:
| I found the microsoft development experience to be terrible
| aside from win32. Yes, win32 lasts forever and outlived every
| attempt to replace it. There's been no end in half-baked APIs
| such as winforms, direct video, etc. I once had a problem where
| i was writing a video streaming thing that had to touch a bunch
| of meta-data inside a WPF program and then have it run on
| different versions of windows. There was no "one true way" and
| ended up doing it all in QT.
| apitman wrote:
| I'm not sure these problems are solvable once a company gets big
| enough and incentives completely take over. It's like the hands
| are trying to sew a parachute while the legs are sprinting
| towards a cliff.
| grafda wrote:
| Feels like screaming "please don't leave us, we will now build
| what you ask for". On the one hand, this is great to hear, but on
| the other side I wonder how much this will matter. Apple is now
| winning on the hardware other than offering a better UX
| experience. But they also have lost their touch with it over the
| years!
| onemoresoop wrote:
| > Feels like screaming "please don't leave us, we will now
| build what you ask for"
|
| And when all is good and everybody's too busy to pay attention
| we'll force feed you an update that will revert all changes to
| what we want.
| kiicia wrote:
| Because it is just cheap damage control. They somehow
| remembered only now about things that should be there since the
| very beginning.
| FifthTundraG wrote:
| Talk is cheap. Show me the changes.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| I am sus. Optimistic but sus. I am hoping for some combo of:
| - MS doing what they say here. (Uphill battle given the perverse
| incentives others have mentioned) My gut says Windows is going to
| be *worse* vs better, and I am willing to settle for
| stagnating... - Linux desktop makers taking UX,
| ABI/linking compatibility, and "just works" seriously.
|
| It's like you could take the good from both and discard the bad,
| but it hasn't happened yet.
| itopaloglu83 wrote:
| It sure looks like a PR campaign to take the attention away
| from how bad the things are, and I need to see it to believe
| it.
|
| Also, why couldn't they make this announcement as they release
| the taskbar change. Taking away the most basic features and
| bringing a few back doesn't mean things are improving, it means
| things are getting petty.
|
| There is no reason for the start menu to take 2 seconds to show
| up on a computer with 8 CPUs running at 4GHz. We all know that
| they're completely half-assing everything now.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Yea concur. "Here's a patch and here are the notes" vs "Here
| are the notes for future efforts" would be more credible!
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > Linux desktop makers taking UX, ABI/linking compatibility,
| and "just works" seriously.
|
| Would you settle for 2 out of 3? UX is improving, and things
| get more polished every year, but we've mostly settled on
| shoving things into some sort of package (container, flatpak,
| snap) alongside all its dependencies specifically so we don't
| have to actually stabilize any sort of ABI
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Yep. Will take what I can get! Re the flatpacks, snaps,
| docker etc. Yea... I don't like those much more than the
| Apple/Google/MS app stores. They don't have the perverse
| incentives, but are still setting up friction points vs being
| able to just have an executable work, expect to work in 5-10
| years, and work on diff distros. (This is something MS
| actually does right; possibly the best thing about Win)
|
| I was coincidentally just updating old softare I wrote, and I
| just ripped out the snap, RPM and Debs because I can't be
| bothered to maintain all of them.
| drschwabe wrote:
| Too little too late, open source Windows 7 and give it a new 10
| year LTS commitment then we can talk.
| SpecialistK wrote:
| What does 7 offer over a LTSC version of 10/11 that open source
| couldn't fix?
| bigyabai wrote:
| A user interface that wasn't designed in the middle of 4
| identity crises.
| SpecialistK wrote:
| You mean Metro/Modern? I never see it anymore, and to be
| honest I prefer the 10 look over Aero, despite being a
| Millennial vaporwave fan. I haven't spun up 7 in years and
| years, and I don't miss it at all. But OS X 10.4's Aqua was
| the peak.
|
| But also, why wouldn't UI changes be possible if the source
| was open? I remember WindowBlinds and patched uxTheme.dll
| in the XP days, and that was /without/ source being
| available. So in this hypothetical, what's stopping hackers
| from backporting the things they like about 7 to 10 or
| adding more rounded translucency?
| albert_e wrote:
| We used to be able to make any folder a popup menu on taskbar,
| including any subfolders. Served the need for quick shortcuts to
| whatever we need within 2 clicks. Sorely miss it in Win11.
| bronlund wrote:
| It's Better To Ask For Forgiveness Than Permission
| _fw wrote:
| Something tickles me about describing the forced inclusion of
| Copilot as "entry points" in things like Notepad. It reveals
| Microsoft's intentions SO precisely.
|
| They aren't trying to add Copilot in useful ways for their users.
| They're forcing it into Notepad when they know it doesn't fit
| there, because it might be your "entry" into their slop
| generator.
|
| User experience be damned, these shareholders must have their
| value.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Reminder: companies don't go on PR blasts without cause. Being
| cynical about tech companies is always a good bet.
| frou_dh wrote:
| It's got to be somewhat depressing working on a household name
| product in its trashy downturn. Surely you can't have the pride
| in your work that an equivalent employee once would have.
| delduca wrote:
| Microslop strikes again with lies.
| hnburnsy wrote:
| Left or right task bar placement, finally!
| JohnFen wrote:
| Windows has been going downhill for too long for me to take them
| at their word. I'll believe it when I see it.
|
| > Windows is as much yours as it is ours.
|
| Microsoft has been inflicting unwanted crap on me for years now,
| and they keep expanding with more unwanted crap (even to the
| point of wanting to force people to have Microsoft accounts) as
| time goes on. Reading this line actually made me laugh out loud.
| No, Microsoft, you don't believe this even a little.
| kevmo wrote:
| Microsoft needs to be broken up.
| miyuru wrote:
| I don't think there will any thing to broken if they go down
| this path.
|
| They are still investing in AI, when they should be investing
| in ARM.
|
| Apple silon is winning developers, even enterprise and with NEO
| the entry level market where MS was king.
| rco8786 wrote:
| > More taskbar customization, including vertical and top
| positions:
|
| When did they get rid of that?
| ivl wrote:
| With Windows 11.
|
| In 10 and prior you could even move it to other monitors, just
| by dragging and dropping it. It's baffling they thought that
| functionality was a bug that people wanted 'fixed'.
| pndy wrote:
| Didn't MS rewrote whole panel again in W11? Surely they did
| that in W10 to re-implement Start menu they removed in W8
| BoredPositron wrote:
| It's a react app now.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Yes, 10 has many more features, like the cool drag out
| menus, pinning and folders
| drob518 wrote:
| It feels like Windows is old and tired. Remember when Microsoft
| and Intel seemed unstoppable in the 1990s and early 2000s? The
| momentum is no longer there. The latest bad decisions around AI
| for Microsoft are just the straw breaking the camel's back.
| BoredPositron wrote:
| It feels like a live service game that went on for too long.
| Like world of warcraft or fortnite. We need a windows classic
| release asap.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| Dave P. has the same take in a video:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTpA5jt1g60
| xnx wrote:
| Sounds like a big "Under New Management" announcement after
| Mustafa Suleyman was demoted.
| zombot wrote:
| Are they microsofter in the brain than MicroSlop? MegaSlop?
| GigaSlop? Reading "Windows" and "quality" in the same sentence
| already triggers every bullshit alert in the book.
| throwuxiytayq wrote:
| Too little and too late. I'll believe it when I'll see it. And so
| far everything I've seen has told me to abandon ship. Even if you
| reverse course, you'd need a miracle to make me trust you anytime
| soon.
|
| This is how goodwill works. Easy to burn, hard to earn back. I'm
| not touching any products by Meta, Google or Microsoft, and none
| of them are getting me back on board with a cute blog post.
| xnx wrote:
| > Faster and more dependable File Explorer: ... more reliable
| performance for everyday file tasks.
|
| This would be great. It's still easy to freeze up File Explorer
| when moving thousands of files. The same operation from the
| command line works fine.
| rgovostes wrote:
| To demonstrate the seriousness of their commitment to Windows
| quality, you can now move the taskbar to the left side of the
| screen. No no, it's not vaporware, they even included _four_
| screenshots. Everyone can rest assured now.
| as1mov wrote:
| > you can now move the taskbar to the left side of the screen
|
| Windows 11 is finally catching up to MATE desktop (which is
| maintained possibly by a single guy from their basement), what
| a time to be alive!
| bigyabai wrote:
| Hell, taskbar positioning was a feature on Windows 10.
| They're just pretending like they didn't remove it for
| brownie points.
| t-writescode wrote:
| 10 ... 8.1, 8... 7, XP... 2000, 98... maybe 95...
| card_zero wrote:
| Indeed, as illustrated in _Inside Windows 95,_ Microsoft
| Press, 1994:
|
| https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_microsoftwindows951
| 994...
| mikestew wrote:
| Windows 11 is catching up to Windows XP.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| A feature they removed due to their inability to make it
| performant in Windows 11 A feature that existed as early as
| win95. The most requested change in user voice, since the
| earliest windows 11 betas.
| combyn8tor wrote:
| I had to check the date on my phone as I was sure it was an
| April fools joke. After the absolute onslaught of negative
| feedback and the new term "Microslop", they put out an article
| saying you can now adjust the position of the taskbar. Unreal.
| croisillon wrote:
| i sorely miss the taskbar repositioning on my work laptop but
| seeing them start their article with this is deeply unserious
| shimman wrote:
| It's kinda hilarious that this is the result of the leadership
| at MSFT. Great example of why the current crop of corporate
| leadership needs to be taxed into oblivion and have their
| fiefdoms divided for the masses. Their reign needs to swiftly
| end.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| MSFT @ 52-wk low. Quality go up as they cling to fundamentals?
| baal80spam wrote:
| Please don't tell me you're falling for it?
| Mesopropithecus wrote:
| Funny how Windows copies KDE (features and trajectories), almost
| 18 years after KDE 4.0/4.1. Also makes me feel old.
| p_ing wrote:
| If you were old, you'd know KDE copied the UX from Windows.
| nickburns wrote:
| Lifelong user and 11-year Insider Program participant (i.e.,
| since the literal start of the program).
|
| Just this past January I implemented something on my workstation
| I should've done a long time ago: outbound filtering all network
| traffic via so-called 'Windows Defender Firewall with Advanced
| Security'. I've also skipped more Insider builds in the past two
| months than I have in the past 11 years.
|
| The only thing keeping me around at this point is the migration
| overhead and (at least I tell myself) window 'snapping'.
| timpera wrote:
| Yeah, window snapping is great. I can't believe Apple still
| hasn't copied this feature.
| tedd4u wrote:
| Just get Rectangle.
|
| https://rectangleapp.com
|
| https://www.tomsguide.com/how-to/use-this-awesome-trick-
| to-g...
| philistine wrote:
| Huh, they have! For the last two years!
|
| https://www.macrumors.com/2024/06/12/macos-sequoia-window-
| ti...
| timpera wrote:
| You're right, but it's nowhere near as polished or powerful
| as W11's window management. You can get there with
| Rectangle or Raycast though.
| richardlblair wrote:
| The first thing I did when a mac was handed to me by an
| employer was find an app for window snapping. It served me
| well.
|
| I went back to windows, using WSL in 2017. In 2023 I got sick
| of how everything was getting progressively worse and switched
| to linux (which has window snapping). I'm never looking back.
| scblock wrote:
| This is vague lip service with little substance, as far as I can
| tell. That is unsurprising consider it's from Microsoft and it's
| about Windows. It addresses (in cheap words) a few real pain
| points, but completely fails to address the dozens of either
| incredibly painful and stupid decisions MS has made.
|
| On the subject of what they address, I have thoughts and many
| doubts.
|
| > Integrating AI where it's most meaningful, with craft and focus
|
| Just don't, bro. Don't do it. I don't want copilot icons in all
| the system apps. None.
|
| > More taskbar customization, including vertical and top
| positions
|
| This feels like it's too little, too late. They redesigned the UI
| in yet another toolkit and in the process broke something had
| worked for decades. Perhaps they could add a 147th different UI
| toolkit with a different look instead, just to change things up.
|
| > Reducing disruption from Windows Updates
|
| Would be welcome, but I have my doubts. MS has shown clearly they
| don't care.
|
| > Faster and more dependable File Explorer
|
| See comment on task bar above.
|
| > More control over widgets and feed experiences
|
| Get out of it. If I see one more stock ticker on a screen share
| from someone I know does NOT track the stock market I'll know you
| for the lying liars you are. Don't promise "more control" just
| stop being so invasive and annoying.
|
| On the subjects they didn't address, I have feedback:
|
| - Remove advertising from the start menu, the system, apps,
| everywhere. Just remove it forever.
|
| - Remove invasive telemetry. Again, forever.
|
| - Respect user choice. Stop trying to force things to open in
| Edge, ignoring my default browser. I am a Firefox/Zen user, keep
| a single (other) chromium-based browser around for sites that
| don't work right (another rant for another time), and try not to
| touch Edge if I can help it.
|
| - Stop turning the bundled native apps into crappy web apps. "New
| Outlook" is a real tire fire.
|
| - Make the default Edge page ANYTHING but the advertising and
| nasty "news" summary that shows up. Why not a simple search page,
| like when Google was new.
|
| - Stop making start menu searches return web results instead of
| local apps
|
| - Make start menu searching actually search in a useful way. Why
| does QGIS not show up when I type GIS? Because it doesn't start
| with Q? That's garbage. Make it work how users would expect it to
| work.
|
| - Let people say no, fully and completely, to OneDrive. You can
| make adding it later easy at user discretion, but don't ask to
| set it up automatically. Don't use fear mongering like "your
| files are not backed up" to try to trick people into signing up
| for it.
|
| - Local accounts should be easy, not a nasty workaround with a
| moving target for instructions.
| dmfdmf wrote:
| As is tradition, HN has downvoted your legit comments to the
| twilight realm. I agree with everything you say. Onedrive
| should be flagged as a virus. Why do they get a pass for things
| any other app would be blocked for doing?
|
| I think the real issue is that MS doesn't view Windows
| primarily as an OS that should be invisible, out of the way --
| with minimal "innovation" geared to sell MS products. The
| problem is that MS views Windows as a sales/marketing channel
| for their ads/apps/services.
| lemoncucumber wrote:
| Reminds me of when they finally apologized for the train wreck
| that was IE6 [1] and resumed Internet Explorer development in the
| 2000s after Firefox came along and started eating IE's market
| share.
|
| In this case it's the MacBook Neo that's causing them to get off
| their butts and reinvest in the quality of their software after
| letting it stagnate for years, but the pattern is the same: rest
| on their monopolistic laurels until competition makes them feel
| threatened, then magically start caring about their users again
| all of a sudden.
|
| [1] https://www.crn.com/news/channel-programs/183701230/gates-
| of...
| protoster wrote:
| So why did they make taskbar bottom only in the first place? Too
| difficult to implement? Branding? No room for ads when it's
| vertical?
| hbn wrote:
| Someone correct me if I'm wrong cause I don't recall where I
| got this understanding from, but I believe Windows 11 still has
| the Windows 10 taskbar, but a startup process basically hides
| it and replaces it with a brand new one they made for Windows
| 11, built with web technologies. And they probably just never
| got around to figuring out how to put it somewhere else on the
| screen since they didn't inherit that behaviour from before.
| dude250711 wrote:
| The assigned LLM junior could not prompt out the required
| <div>s.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Performance. They couldn't even handle seconds in the clock on
| win11 release.
| nickorlow wrote:
| It cracks me up that the toggle for this advises you that it
| will cause your battery to die faster
| layer8 wrote:
| Because the Apple dock is bottom-only too, and the Microsoft UI
| designers are using Macs.
| mike_hearn wrote:
| It's not though. You can pin it to the side.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Talk is cheap, I want to see heads rolling, head of whoever was
| responsible with the all the disastrous windows 11 decisions.
| Till then I won't touch windows 11 and I'm not the only one.
| AndroTux wrote:
| That'd be Nadella's head then. Not that I'd be complaining,
| though.
| kmoser wrote:
| Disastrous decisions like ads, phoning home, and AI
| integration? I'm pretty sure MS brass considers those smart
| business decisions; even if those features fail, they will
| attempt to pivot them to something more successful rather than
| roll them back and admit defeat.
| bloggie wrote:
| Well the guy who wrote the blog post seems to have been in
| charge of windows for the last 2 years so he's still at it.
| grujicd wrote:
| Let's start with those who thought it's a good idea to give
| power over UI decissions to designers using Macs.
| tasuki wrote:
| I have the opposite feelings: I'm rooting for them to continue
| and utterly destroy Windows for everyone.
| dethswatch wrote:
| #noconfidence
| dude250711 wrote:
| I was hoping for: _" We understood the insanity and the insult of
| trying to replace native UI with cheap web stack imitation and it
| will never happen again"_.
| layer8 wrote:
| Well, the article does say:
|
| "More fluid and responsive app interactions: Reducing
| interaction latency by moving core Windows experiences to the
| WinUI3 framework.
|
| * Improving the shared UI infrastructure that Windows
| experiences rely on, reducing interaction latency and overhead
| at the platform level
|
| * Faster responsiveness in core Windows experiences like the
| Start menu, by moving more experiences to WinUI3"
| HelloUsername wrote:
| > "A more relevant Recommended section in Start will surface apps
| and content you care about most, with clear controls to customize
| the experience or turn it off"
|
| How about, turn it off by default?
| ChicagoDave wrote:
| No one wants copilot. You can make it an app, but any OS level
| integration is a non-starter.
|
| My next laptop will be a MacBook Pro.
|
| My Surface Laptop 5 will be collecting dust in case I need it,
| but that's highly unlikely.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| So Apple Intelligence doesn't bother you?
| ebb_earl_co wrote:
| Is it incontrovertibly built in to macOS? I have an iPhone
| and have never enabled it or Siri, so maybe there is similar
| off switch for macOS.
| hyperhello wrote:
| It's like Siri, or spell check, if you don't use it you
| turn it off and it doesn't bother you again.
| packetlost wrote:
| Apple Intelligence has a global off button that actually
| works. It's unobtrusive anyways. Copilot on the other hand...
| nixpulvis wrote:
| So the issue isn't actually that it's baked into the OS,
| it's that you should have control over when it's used.
| Forgeties79 wrote:
| Apple intelligence even when activated is just not as
| annoying and obtrusive.
| packetlost wrote:
| I'm not GP, so I can't comment on where their line is,
| but for me the difference between Copilot and Apple
| Intelligence is that I can turn off the latter and never
| see anything about it again. Copilot, on the other hand,
| is everywhere and it's almost all universally buggy
| garbage, even when it's disabled.
|
| I actually trust the Apple Intelligence, when off,
| doesn't exfiltrate my data.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Yea I respect that.
|
| I too would not want any unprompted access to my files.
|
| At the end of the day this issue is that we don't trust
| the OS and we cannot easily validate how it is designed
| to behave.
| amatecha wrote:
| Oh yeah and even when you turn off
| preferences/settings/features in Windows, they
| mysteriously come back later in one of the unilateral
| forced updates, against your wishes.
| brailsafe wrote:
| > So the issue isn't actually that it's baked into the
| OS, it's that you should have control over when it's
| used.
|
| Baked into the OS implies that it's integral to its
| operation in a way that the two are fundamentally
| inseparable. Having a global off switch implies that's
| not true.
|
| There are other irritating baked in aspects of the newest
| macos and other recent versions that are arguably less
| avoidable, like Tahoe's entire UI design, or the Settings
| app.
| threetonesun wrote:
| Apple Intelligence is basically unseen in day to day use.
| jimbokun wrote:
| I use Macs for both work and personal use and I don't really
| notice Apple Intelligence.
|
| Maybe it's doing stuff that doesn't rise to my level of
| attention, but it isn't actively annoying me.
| bdangubic wrote:
| You like it you turn it On, you don't you turn it Off
| thih9 wrote:
| FWIW, I clicked "skip" on a popup to set up apple
| intelligence and I didn't see it again.
|
| Of course this might change in future. And Mac OS has other
| popups where there is no "skip" and only "remind me later".
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Not technically under the umbrella of Apple Intelligence,
| but you might be surprised to find out what photoanalysisd
| is doing.
| mbrameld wrote:
| And if the surprise is unpleasant you can disable it by
| turning off memories and holidays in the settings of the
| photo app. Not so easy to escape Copilot on Windows.
| szatkus wrote:
| That's more or less my experience with Copilot on Windows.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Even the linked blog post indicates that that is not the
| case. Windows has Copilot buttons on practically every
| built in application, a taskbar icon, and a dedicated
| physical keyboard key that people commonly accidentally
| hit (contractually required for OEMs to provide). They
| also actively promote Copilot in the OS (particularly
| Home Edition with _nothing_ disabled e.g. "Tips,"
| Notification Spam, Recommendations, etc).
|
| Nobody can predict what Apple will do tomorrow, but as of
| today, they aren't really pushing Siri/Apple intelligence
| really hard particularly after initial setup. None of
| most of the above for example.
| szatkus wrote:
| I have Pro Edition and for me Copilot only added two
| icons. One in Notepad and another one in Paint. I ignore
| both. There's also the Copilot app that I didn't even
| know I have installed.
|
| I don't know what happens with Home Edition, but I though
| the pushback was mainly from Insider Preview?
| al_borland wrote:
| I enabled it and it never bothers me. Writing tools exist,
| but aren't really shoved in my face. Photos an extra tool
| to remove stuff from images.
|
| I don't use it often, but occasionally use the proofread
| option. Other than that, it stays out of my way.
| sgt wrote:
| Have you even tried it? I'm a Mac user for 20+ years and I'm
| running Tahoe. Not once have I ever thought about Apple
| Intelligence. I don't even notice it. I think you have to
| switch it on.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Yes, that's my point though. It's not about being built
| into the OS, it's about being controllable.
| malux85 wrote:
| I use apple products daily and apple intelligence has never
| interrupted me. I don't even know what it is. So, no.
| thiht wrote:
| I don't think I've ever even noticed Siri/Apple intelligence
| on macOS. I've disabled it somehow (probably at install) and
| have not heard about it since
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Or onedrive integrations and constant 'backup your computer
| now' popups which are _advertisements_ for onedrive, or
| Netflix, Spotify, or LinkedIn pre-installed and difficult to
| remove, or all of the above reinstalling during windows
| updates.
|
| In fact, basically any feature added since Windows 10 is
| probably unwanted.
| pianoben wrote:
| As if Apple doesn't berate you with unskippable notifications
| to sign up for iCloud, buy more space, etc etc?
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Comparing windows to an OS I don't use isn't a fair
| comparison unless my work machine stops being windows. I
| assume Apple are a slightly less variant of bad though
| Forgeties79 wrote:
| It only does that if your iCloud is full and even then it's
| just not as annoying and show stopping.
| hamburglar wrote:
| My iCloud is full. Every once in a while my iPhone nags
| me to upgrade for a few days in a row and I tell it no
| and it goes away for 6 months or so. My Mac has never
| once nagged me about iCloud storage.
| XorNot wrote:
| This isn't a competition. I just want those things gone.
| kxrm wrote:
| I have been on a MacBook Pro exclusively for the past 3
| years and I do not ever see anything about iCloud. I also
| never signed up so may be that is why?
| BoredPositron wrote:
| You know maybe OneDrive wouldn't suck as much if it was a
| native app and not qt.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| I don't care if it had the best UX of all apps on windows.
| I don't want or need data scraping in the form of cloud
| storage.
|
| Edit: but I am somewhat surprised that it's qt and not the
| typical react electron bloat that Microsoft is slopping
| out. I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
| bigyabai wrote:
| I don't think macOS will liberate you from OS-level integration
| with AI. If you _really_ cannot tolerate built-in AI, Linux and
| the BSDs are your only choice.
| kriz9 wrote:
| As a long time windows user I have no regrets making the
| switch. If it wouldn't be for the games I would not touch
| windows at all.
| dbalatero wrote:
| I've gone fully to Linux and all my games surprisingly run. I
| was ready to ditch some but I even got Blizzard stuff working
| which was my main concern.
| kriz9 wrote:
| Games with anti cheat unfortunately are not supported.
| genewitch wrote:
| some are, it depends, but i'd expect to lose access to
| those type. if it mattered and crossplay existed for the
| game i'd get a console if it was gunna be a big deal...
| redwall_hp wrote:
| I switched to Mac around Vista and never looked back. For
| games, enlightenment is realizing the PC gaming tribalism is
| dumb and PlayStations are actually really nice. It's an
| appliance that plays games without giving you trouble, in a
| comfortable place instead of encouraging you to spend even
| more time at a desk.
| brooke2k wrote:
| If your interests lie entirely or mostly in the realm of
| AAA or AA games that are playable with a controller, then I
| completely agree.
|
| However if your interests lie in indie games or games that
| require a keyboard and mouse interface (precision shooters,
| grand strategy games, RTS games, etc) then having a PC that
| can play games is completely necessary. (I say this as
| someone who runs linux btw, not a windows defender).
| perfect-blue wrote:
| This is key. I work all day on my computer. Why would I
| want to go home and sit in front of another computer for
| hours.
| SunshineTheCat wrote:
| Yea, I've replaced Windows with Ubuntu on my pc and have just
| ordered an M5 Macbook Air.
|
| Sure both have their quirks, but it's just wild how much
| Windows goes out of its way to be annoying. From a billion
| startup notifications to basic UI stuff to copilot and the list
| goes on.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| I just don't think people like having something shoved down
| their throats. The dedicated Copilot button on keyboards and
| adding Copilot shortcuts all over the OS (and automatic
| popups/ads) was far too far.
|
| I think OS level integrations that are opt-in, not opt-out, may
| even be popular. But they have to be done carefully and
| tastefully.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I have the same feeling about _any_ kind of integration. We
| 're moving away from Google because we simply do not want to
| have this kind of forced relationship with products and/or
| services. It either fits and we'll pick it or it does not and
| then we don't. We won't pay for things we do not intend to
| use. And we don't want exposure to products that may
| constitute a security or a privacy risk.
| pnce wrote:
| The forced Workspace price hike to "get" Gemini felt like
| the beginning of the end.
|
| Do you know what you'll be moving to to replace what
| Workspace provides (email/IdP/calendar/Chrome policy
| management?)
| jacquesm wrote:
| Email and document collaboration are the big ones, email
| is probably going to be the easier one of those two,
| documents much harder because we have a pretty specific
| workflow that is tied closely to how google docs works.
| But the decision has been made and I don't care if it is
| going to cause us to have to work a bit slower or
| different, this is just unacceptable.
|
| The whole Gemini thing is just a massive embarrassment
| for Google I really can't follow their thinking, you'd
| think that after the Google '+' debacle that they would
| have learned their lesson not to cannibalize your old
| products to launch a new one.
| lukeschlather wrote:
| I actually think Gemini Pro is great and I don't have a
| problem paying for it, but I don't want its tendrils in
| Drive and Gmail or anywhere else, it actively damages the
| product experience there. Everywhere they've tried to
| integrate LLMs, it generally provides an experience
| that's inferior to just chatting with Gemini.
|
| The closest to useful it's been is in the GCP console,
| but it seems to decide at random to forget context, and
| it might just be Gemini Flash with minimal thinking,
| which tends to mean it's just repeating things it's
| already said.
| esalman wrote:
| Around new years my company had to replace my windows laptop
| because windows update has been broken for a few months on my
| machine. They had a replacement windows laptop ready but I
| asked them to provide a MacBook instead. This is first time in
| my two decades of career that I specifically asked for a
| MacBook.
|
| Funnily enough, there's a bug that's affecting all MacBook
| users in my company (does not wake after lid down overnight).
| Apparently the culprit is windows defender installed in the
| MacBooks. Corporate, you know...
| tonymet wrote:
| If integrated properly, something akin to copilot generating
| Mac shortcuts, with close supervision, copilot could be
| extremely powerful on the desktop. Now that Apple has licensed
| Gemini, I would expect that to come soon.
|
| Gen AI has even more power at task generation than at content
| generation. Imagine running Photoshop or Final Cut Pro via
| prompts. People seem squeamish because so far the Copilot
| entrypoints have been encouraging tacky text & image content
| generation, like Clippy. But imo that's the weakest and most
| sensitive application.
|
| V1 is often not very good, for any new application.
| Macha wrote:
| Microsoft directors want Copilot so they can make the case to
| executive leadership that they're aligned with that vision.
| It's why even in this announcement, the admission that they've
| maybe taken the whole AI OS thing a bit too far is phrased
| positively for AI with "Integrating AI where it's most
| meaningful, with craft and focus", so the skim reading exec or
| financial journalist can read it as "good, Windows is still
| integrating AI"
| quantified wrote:
| Integrating ~Spyglass~ Internet Explorer into the OS was a dumb
| stunt, very costly in terms of security. This will be worse.
| bobmcnamara wrote:
| Is this April fools?
|
| The fix is upside down UI?
| xpe wrote:
| If Bill is reading this: Another way to commit to quality would
| be (a) fund a $200M+ open source foundation to
| migrate/port/rewrite all of Windows (drivers, utilities,
| applications) to Linux; (b) give the foundation full IP rights
| to do so; (c) put all Microsoft Windows employees on the effort
| too.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| Bill definitely wouldn't approve of the current Windows
| quality. This email by him (2003) is very interesting. It
| looks like he was powerless to stop the degradation.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20080626154537/http://blog.seatt.
| ..
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=227045
| zipy124 wrote:
| This email has given me a lot more respect for Bill gates.
| krashidov wrote:
| Do they still serve ads when you click the Start button?
| iknowstuff wrote:
| Oh, someone's feeling the heat of MacBook Neo and getting
| pressured by their hardware partners.
|
| > More taskbar customization, including vertical and top
| positions:
|
| Pfft. Still slow, react-based, and ad-riddled
|
| > reducing unnecessary Copilot entry points, starting with apps
| like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets and Notepad.
|
| Must have failed to meet the metrics goals
|
| > Reducing disruption from Windows Updates
|
| You can bet they will still flash the screen take-over riddled
| with all the dark patterns in the world to get you to upload all
| your files to their cloud "for backup"
|
| > Faster and more dependable File Explorer [..] quicker launch
| experience:
|
| Oh, the preloading of explorer into ram before it's launched?
| Lmao. Entirely embarassed by File Pilot https://filepilot.tech
|
| gtfo.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| >Our commitment to Windows quality
|
| LMAO
| timpera wrote:
| This is awesome! Windows 11 is the best OS I've ever used, and
| it's great to see them finally fixing these obvious pain points.
| flenserboy wrote:
| the plan should be simple:
|
| fire most of your leads & new programmers.
|
| hire back anyone willing to come back with competence.
|
| return to the Windows 10 LTSC codebase.
|
| try again.
| zsoltkacsandi wrote:
| So now that Apple released Macbook Neo, Microsoft has started to
| care about Windows quality after a decade?
| dainiusse wrote:
| Lol
| natas wrote:
| we've heard that before.
| himata4113 wrote:
| I didn't switch to linux because windows was bad. I was running
| LTSC IoT Enterprise and selectively ran scripts from AtlasOS.
|
| What finally pushed me to linux was because specifically in my
| narrow usecases it's just plain better, but if we were to
| completely ignore that, even if linux was worse, I just don't
| want to support evil companies anymore.
|
| Now I'll admit that this is what AI would say, but it's not
| always about what is better, it's about sending a message, a
| message that microsoft appears to have heard loud and clear,
| however, we will have to see if this is just PR or not.
| Intermernet wrote:
| I dual boot LTSC and Fedora. I find myself using fedora more
| and more, but I need Windows for a couple of apps that don't
| play nicely with Wine/Proton (Ableton Live 12 mainly).
| gred wrote:
| Three years too late, in my case. I've moved on.
| _-_-__-_-_- wrote:
| So, you're giving us back features that we've had since Windows
| 95, but shittier?
| natas wrote:
| I recently had dinner in Bellevue with an individual who holds a
| relatively senior position within Microsoft's executive
| leadership. During our conversation, she emphasized repeatedly
| that Microsoft does not primarily view its offerings as consumer
| products. According to her, the company's leadership is strongly
| focused on B2B strategy, with revenue growth driven mainly by
| Azure, AI, and enterprise solutions. Her perspective was that
| consumer-facing products are not the primary revenue drivers and,
| therefore, are not central to executive priorities. While this
| may not be surprising to some, what stood out to me was how
| emphatically she underscored that the company's strategic focus
| is squarely on enterprise customers rather than end users.
|
| That said, this business model has historically proven effective
| for companies such as IBM. Microsoft allocates its resources
| toward segments that offer meaningful revenue growth.
| hyperhello wrote:
| I recently saw this comment. You made it a few weeks ago, copy
| and paste identical.
| mholm wrote:
| Not OP, but I've got a friend of a friend in the Windows org
| that backs this up. Most engineers are teamed up by
| manufacturers. HP team, Lenovo team, etc. These are the
| primary drivers of feature development. If it won't sell
| grandma another $500 HP laptop, they're not interested.
| DoctorDabadedoo wrote:
| It's B2B/Enterprise in the driver's seat to keep revenue
| coming. Usability and polishing of the products is locked
| in the trunk of the car.
|
| source: been there.
| itsfine2 wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47223342
| xbar wrote:
| I noticed that, too. However, I will say that having a couple
| weeks to watch Microsoft through the lens of the original
| post, I am inclined to adopt it as my current model for
| Microsoft's actual agenda.
|
| As a result, I do not currently think that Microsoft is
| consumer-oriented. They have reinforced my opinion by doing
| anti-consumer changes in XBOX and then saying that they were
| pro-gamer. Seems like a pattern.
|
| Maybe they will prove me wrong; I am sun-setting my final
| host that's running their software soon.
| natas wrote:
| I've included this here because it's highly relevant to the
| discussion. That said, anything not closely tied to revenue
| will not be prioritized, which limits the impact of this
| microsoft post.
| naikrovek wrote:
| This is a fantastic reason to ditch Windows.
|
| Windows used to be built for the user. Now, Microsoft builds it
| for themselves, as a way to help hardware partners sell
| hardware which includes a windows license.
|
| So if Microsoft makes Windows for their own benefit, and not
| for the users benefit, I see no reason to use it at all. I
| don't like games _that_ much.
|
| MacOS has gone downhill in a hurry but it's still very good.
| Far better than Windows for me in every way.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _the company's strategic focus is squarely on enterprise
| customers rather than end users_
|
| Yet it was the end users that forced enterprise to embrace the
| iPhone, not the other way around.
|
| If her vision was the only driver, we'd still be rocking
| Blackberries.
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| Too little too late. Linux can finally handle 90% of the gaming I
| want to do, and I'm willing to "suffer" not being able to play
| the other 10%.
|
| Microsoft has proven itself the undisputed king of
| enshittification and a blog post will not change my mind on that.
|
| Maybe my grandkids will give it a shot.
| oofbey wrote:
| > Windows touches more people's lives than almost any technology
| on Earth.
|
| Thankfully Ballmer failed and this isn't even close to true. I,
| like a lot of highly technical professionals, have been Windows
| sober for many years now.
| NKosmatos wrote:
| Is this a joke? Is this guy for real? And he calls himself a REAL
| engineer? He's a manager doing damage control because all this
| time Microslop is greedy and has stopped caring about power
| users.
|
| We're not first time users, we don't want Microsoft BOB as our
| UI, we don't want ads and internet search "functionality" in our
| Start menu, we don't want AI everywhere and we don't want things
| hidden from us.
|
| Make Windows 11 Pro for real pro users and 11 Home for new users.
| I hope a few people from MS are reading this, especially Mr
| Engineer.
|
| I'm going to get downvoted for this, but I don't care.
|
| P.S. Yeah yeah guys, I know about Linux ;-)
| mosura wrote:
| The question here is what metric at Microsoft was bad enough for
| them to make a post like this?
| xbar wrote:
| I am not convinced that Microsoft is all of a sudden deciding to
| try again to become a consumer-oriented company based on
| something Pravan Davuluri says.
|
| Seems more like FUD.
| pixelpoet wrote:
| Too little, too late; I've already switched to Linux last
| November and never looked back.
|
| Microsoft Copilot 365 Operating System App is just trash, plain
| and simple.
| devinprater wrote:
| > Integrating AI where it's most meaningful, with craft and
| focus.
|
| Spoken like a true AI.
| SoKamil wrote:
| No ads. No upselling. Being able to completely ignore Microsoft
| account and install offline. No telemetry if that's what user
| decides, no opt-in - single dialog during installation. No dark
| patterns. That's what people want.
| arikrahman wrote:
| Glad I made the move to Linux when I did. The taskbar being
| moveable would've passed as satire if it wasn't an offical post.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| It's crazy how windows blew its dominance isn't it?
|
| Even for gaming, the only reason why I would stick with windows
| is not an issue anymore. Thanks to Steam gaming just works on
| Linux. I'm using Omarchy and it's very easy.
|
| I can't see ever going back to windows personally.
| AJRF wrote:
| It's like watching someone wake up with a very bad hangover.
|
| I am doing my part - I managed to get 6 people in my family and
| friend group off Windows onto Debian last year.
|
| All positive feedback so far :).
|
| Sure it's only a small victory - but a meaningful one to me.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| Too late man. Linux made Windows obsolete. There's no going back
| for me.
| dmos62 wrote:
| I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal
| computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux, and
| its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem, which
| is to say adoption, not some inherent trait. But then, since
| Linux adoption didn't meaningfully change in the last 20 years,
| I'm forced to confront the fact that either I'm wrong about its
| fundamentals, or the market is able to be irrational for longer
| than I find reasonable. Either way, Windows in my mind,
| represents a world I'd like to leave behind. Apple too, btw.
| advael wrote:
| As I tell all my friends panic-switching as their shit breaks,
| the best time to switch to linux was ten years ago. The second-
| best time is now
| odst wrote:
| I've been interested in moving my windows machine to Linux. Do
| you have any recommendations for distros to use? Last time I
| used Linux was Linux Mint. It was fine, but definitely felt
| less polished compared to Windows or Mac OS
| Georgelemental wrote:
| I have been very happy with Fedora, generally has up-to-date
| software and usually just works
| xvedejas wrote:
| I've been using Linux for a long time, which might sound like
| I'm comfortable with all its rough edges, but it's honestly
| the opposite. Early on it was a new toy and I would accept
| issues as part of messing around with it. The past 10~15
| years on the other hand, I've needed to get serious work done
| on it, and also use it for PC gaming, so I've gone the other
| way and focused on getting the most no-nonsense easy setup
| where I don't have to be tinkering with things all the time.
|
| Based on that, I'd say: go for a popular distro with KDE. I'm
| sure there are other very polished options out there, but my
| recommendation is _Kubuntu_ , even though it's not the one I
| use today (I use Arch mostly), as it's very simple to set up
| and well supported.
| dmbche wrote:
| Manjaro is a very sane distro
| DoctorDabadedoo wrote:
| I would go either with Ubuntu or Fedora. The entry barrier is
| lower, they work well and shouldn't be too troublesome to
| install/maintain.
|
| Then check whether you prefer Gnome or KDE as the looks and
| go with what you find cooler.
|
| I've used Ubuntu most of my career and it's solid, these days
| I'm testing Fedora at home due to some nitpicks I have, but
| both are good options.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| > _and its superficial superiority only comes from the
| ecosystem_
|
| So the only superiority is that it runs the apps most people
| want to run?
|
| And this is why geeks are always the "Less space than Nomad. No
| Wireless. Lame" types or the HN equivalent when talking about
| DropBox:
|
| "For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself
| quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally
| with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted
| filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be
| accessed through built-in software."
| dijit wrote:
| Most people want a web browser.
|
| Even Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is "Web only" on the
| lowest tier.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| PC gaming revenue on its own is around $45 Billion a year
| and there are all sorts of vertical market software that
| only runs on Windows.
|
| But even if all most people want is browser, why go through
| the hassle of running Linux?
|
| I usually recommended a Windows PC to most people because
| on the low end, they are cheap, disposable, and if the one
| odd program they might want to run isn't available, I
| didn't have to hear about it.
|
| If they know what they want, I didn't have a problem
| recommending an Air and now for a lot of use cases, a Neo.
| dijit wrote:
| I work in games (formerly AAA).
|
| Chicken and egg problem.
|
| Valve is making enough headway that game makers take
| Linux seriously. We'll likely see a lot more native
| releases over time. (once the worry about anticheat
| subsides).
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| And still why should normal people go to Linux over
| Windows? Linux support is still not that great from OEMs
| and for the unwashed masses your local Best Buy or Apple
| Store.
| dijit wrote:
| Ok
| butterlesstoast wrote:
| Ok
| motbus3 wrote:
| I believe this even without checking the numbers. That
| said, I now own a steam deck and I only buy games
| supported.
|
| There is a new game with no support? So sorry. Can't be
| done
| bangaladore wrote:
| > Microsofts esteemed moat (office) is "Web only" on the
| lowest tier.
|
| If you've ever used it before, you'd quickly come to the
| conclusion that web only Office is only useful for someone
| writing essays for school.
|
| The moment you need to do anything more complex than that,
| the document renders completely differently on web vs app--
| not to mention there are tons of critical features that
| aren't even available on the web version.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| I don't do anything too "serious" as far as writing
| documents that Google Docs can't handle - we use that at
| work instead of Office - is Word that much better than
| GSuite for most cases or is Office Web worse than GSuite?
| esseph wrote:
| > is Word that much better than GSuite for most cases or
| is Office Web worse than GSuite?
|
| Excel is really The Thing. So many businesses and
| departments rely on it.
| dijit wrote:
| Sorry, I think I didn't make myself clear enough.
|
| I meant that Microsoft is intentionally removing their
| own moat.
|
| That the tools are awful is just the standard microsoft
| affair. (with some notable exceptions, which ironically
| include Excel).
| Gigachad wrote:
| I don't think I've ever met someone who only uses the web
| browser exclusively.
|
| It's true that most stuff is in the browser, but basically
| every user has a couple things that are native apps which
| don't work on Linux.
|
| Wine has come a long way for gaming, but my experience is
| for regular programs, most stuff doesn't work. Even the
| simple apps are usually critically broken.
| rfrey wrote:
| People loved the iPod. Users loved Dropbox. Nobody loves
| windows.
| gambiting wrote:
| I like Windows. Windows 11 gets on my nerves a lot but
| fundamentally I think it's a great system if you're a
| software developer or if you play video games(and I do
| both). I also have to use MacOS as part of my work and I
| don't understand how anyone uses it daily, it's like it's
| made by someone who never actually has to use it
| themselves. But I imagine it's a matter of personal
| preference to an extent.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| I was forced to use Windows recently for a year between
| late 2023-2024. Windows itself is _fine_. It's the
| hardware that sucks with it still being forced to be on
| x86. The heat, the bad battery life, the fan noise, etc.
|
| On the Mac side, either way I spent all of my day in
| VSCode and the browser - we use GSuite - Zoom and Slack.
| It wouldn't make that much of a different either way.
|
| The only integrations I use between my work Mac and my
| personal Apple life are my iPad for a second screen,
| shared subset of passwords. I have a separate Apple
| Account for my work computer and I share work related
| passwords.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| I love Windows, or at least I used to before Windows 8. I
| think that it is a truly pleasant OS to use, and is my
| preference. I use Linux as my daily driver today, but it's
| because I'm a refuge from the anti-user thugs MS has done
| (ads in the OS being first and foremost among them), not
| because I don't like Windows. If they brought back Windows
| 7 security updates, I would switch back to it in a
| heartbeat.
| colordrops wrote:
| What a horrible take, nothing but a tautology. It only runs
| the apps most people want to use because it's installed on so
| many computers, so developers target it. Linux can run
| anything Windows can. It's the same hardware, and if it was a
| much more popular desktop you bet your life that banks and
| streaming companies and AAA game developers would target
| linux as a supported platform. Has nothing to do with the
| quality of Windows, only the install base, which was the
| original point.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| It doesn't matter _why_ it only runs apps most people want
| to use. As long as you don't think a "quality" of something
| is that "it can do what I want it to do".
| colordrops wrote:
| As long as you think of "quality" as "something that is
| not quality". bad logic. There are many systems that are
| only usable because they are popular but everyone hates
| them and thinks they are garbage. Market capture doesn't
| equal quality, sorry, that's a horrible take.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| But it still was lame and ultimately made the world a worse
| place; and mounting remote storage is convenient and often
| preferable to something like Dropbox for several reasons. The
| fact that these aren't what matters for gaining wide
| popularity doesn't make such statements false.
| sonofhans wrote:
| The iPod made the world a worse place? I'm skeptical; I see
| very little bad about iPods. Do you think the quote what
| about the iPhone?
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| iPods are the main thing that allowed iPhone (the bigger
| brother of iPod Touch) to be successful. I'm reasonably
| convinced that without the iPod craze, Apple's phone
| wouldn't make such a big market impact.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| The iPod Touch was released after the iPhone.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| A few months after.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| What's funny is that there were two years worth of rumors
| about the "true video iPod" and people nailed the specs
| of the iPod Touch. But no one suspected the "iPhone" that
| had also been rumored would be basically the same thing
| brailsafe wrote:
| > ultimately made the world a worse place
|
| I feel like people dramatically overestimate their impact
| on "the world" by way of making niche software choices or
| consumer products or whatever.
| Eisenstein wrote:
| If you follow the reasoning that the iPod led to the
| iPhone which made mobile internet use dominant and
| common, you can also follow that line to social media and
| attention economies which many would argue have caused
| the world to be worse.
|
| But this is kind of like the 'great man' theory of
| history where you can also argue that the markets would
| have converged on this outcome regardless of what the
| specific device was that we attribute to it.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| I think we would have been stuck with BlackBerry/Windows
| CE/SideKick type devices.
|
| Even the then CEO of Google used BlackBerry devices years
| after Android came out as opposed to SJ who used the
| iPhone before it was released and after it was announced,
| saw that the screen was easily scratched and publicly did
| a press release that they were going to change it to use
| Gorilla Glass from plastic.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| I was more thinking about normalization of walled gardens
| in personal computing devices and resulting duopolisation
| of the market. Widely used mobile Internet, social
| networks, touchscreen smartphones were coming with or
| without Apple, and it's not like the carrier-dominated
| market was all flowers and butterflies otherwise, but
| ultimately it was Apple who used its market and cultural
| position to push non-interoperable stuff like iMessage,
| fight "jailbreaking" and "sideloading", gatekeep software
| availability etc. which defined the course of action in
| the industry for the next decades. These things aren't
| what made iPhones successful and it didn't have to be
| done this way.
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| There was no "wall garden" with the iPod. In SJ's
| "Thoughts on Music" that he posted on Apple's front page
| in 2007, he said that less than 5% of users music came
| from iTunes.
|
| This was the same post he said he wouldn't license
| Apple's DRM. But if the music industry would license
| their music DRM free, the interoperability goals would be
| achieved an Apple would sell DRM free music.
|
| One of the major record labels and some independent
| labels took him up on it immediately. It took two years
| for the rest to come onboard.
|
| iMessage always supported SMS and now RCS. What more did
| you expect Apple to do?
| raw_anon_1111 wrote:
| In all fairness, he did later have this comment
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27070138
| chezelenkoooo wrote:
| I think you're vastly underestimating the technical illiteracy
| most people have with computers.
|
| 99% of people buy a desktop and don't even consider what the
| operating system is let alone think about changing it to
| something else. I would imagine they don't even know that a
| difference exists between operating systems.
| theLiminator wrote:
| HN in general always does this. I got a lot of push back when
| I said that in general consumers don't care at all about open
| source, and the majority of them probably have no clue what
| it even means.
|
| You can really sense the SF-centric bubble HN lives in.
| fsloth wrote:
| Open source is a supply chain specific issue and consumers
| don't care about supply chain.
|
| Anyone with any illusions about this name quickly the top
| vendor for the third item in the materials itinerary of the
| first thing with a materials itinerary you get your hands
| on (for me it's usually food. Who is the main vendor for
| citric acid? Or sugar. Or that red dye that causes adhd. I
| have no clue)
|
| General consumers could not care less about open source.
|
| It's component.
|
| Not a product.
| guelo wrote:
| HN always does this, make ridiculous generalizations about
| the thousands of people that comment on HN.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| I try new distros all the time and not a single one of them
| is 'GUI native' in the sense that you can do everything
| without touching a terminal. Some weird stuff always happens
| and you need to do a bunch of research to figure out how to
| fix it. The settings GUIs never have parity with the config
| files and it shows.
| tasuki wrote:
| Windows is 'GUI native', yet manages to be utterly
| incomprehensible. I'm a technical person and family and
| friends know it. Whenever someone tells me "you understand
| computers" and wants me to help them with their Windows,
| having used Linux for the past 20 years, I mostly cannot
| get the task done. This has become better with LLMs, but
| Windows gets zero credit for that.
|
| What is the benefit of 'GUI native' if things are broken
| and people cannot fix them?
| orthoxerox wrote:
| Windows isn't 100% GUI native either. Tell me how to
| configure the IP settings of a Hyper-V virtual switch via
| GUI.
| Gigachad wrote:
| Depends what you are doing. I have Bazzite Linux on my
| gaming desktop and I don't even connect a keyboard to it,
| let alone open a terminal. Everything is accessible via a
| controller.
| dingdingdang wrote:
| This point stands to be underlined! Even the least possible
| friction is more than people at large are willing to deal
| with, it's only if the system changes are pushed from the top
| (rumblings in the EU block at the mo) that we'll see casual
| consumption of Linux in more mainstream context. Having run
| Linux Mint across a 50+ coworker setting from a sysadmin
| perspective this is entirely doable, most will not even
| notice as long as Chrome is in place alongside with something
| office-like.
| jaredsohn wrote:
| This xkcd is again relevant: https://xkcd.com/2501/
| fsloth wrote:
| Don't undersell it, it's perfect actually.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| Do non-tech people even buy computers anymore? I imagine you
| basically have tech enthusiasts, gamers, and IT at offices
| buying desktop computers at this point.
| gunalx wrote:
| True. Desktops are becoming a nishe. Casual pc use most
| likely has a laptop. More and more just a phone and maybe a
| ipad or other tablet.
| Mesmoria wrote:
| One reason to buy a laptop is school/uni. After that it
| feels like many people move there "computing" to their
| phones.
|
| Time for some Internet researching...
| Gigachad wrote:
| I've never met someone who doesn't own a computer. Every
| uni student owns a personal laptop. For all the marketing
| from Apple, the iPad still isn't close to replacing a
| laptop.
| colordrops wrote:
| KDE is an experience that is not that different in quality
| from Windows. And if 75% of users used KDE as their desktop
| instead of Windows, I promise you that the rough edges would
| be worked out. It has nothing to do with Windows having
| better UX or quality.
| JoelMcCracken wrote:
| This. While I was in college, I worked for Circuit City doing
| tech support (the "IQ Crew", heh, later called "firedog".
| Memories). People would call/come in and I would try to
| gather information about their setup.
|
| It was extremely common to get Q/A like:
|
| Me: Who is your internet serviced provider?
|
| Them: I just click the 'e'.
|
| Translation: They were telling me they use internet explorer.
|
| Me: OK, bring in your computer and I can look at it.
|
| Them: (arrives some time later, plops their CRT monitor on
| the table).
|
| It was always like that. It took me a while to figure out how
| to ask the right questions to get the information I needed
| from them. TBH, this was most of the job.
| fgonzag wrote:
| Change is hard.
|
| My father is a 70-year-old software engineer who programs .NET
| Core in Notepad and builds using custom BAT files that build
| the project using csc (the outright compiler). He browses and
| copies files in the Windows Terminal. He is also accustomed to
| Linux since we deploy to it in our business, and he can do
| everything comfortably in the Linux terminal.
|
| He trusts me almost blindly, yet I can't convince him to swap
| to Linux even though every time he keeps fighting Windows. I'm
| actually fairly surprised since I'm certain he'd find himself
| at home almost immediately( he already is when managing
| servers)
|
| I'm fairly sure it's Notepad keeping him there, but I've told
| him there is also a Linux clone or Wine. I had been dabbling in
| Linux for 30 years, and it's been about 7 or 8 years since I
| switched full-time and couldn't be happier. But honestly, we're
| going to get there because it's inevitable. It's the only OS
| that's currently not wholly incentivized to "enshittify" itself
| and is actually improving at a pretty good pace due to
| Wayland's novelty fostering a plethora of alternative window
| managers.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Notepad, of all things, is a CRAZY thing to be so tied to.
| It's not even a good editor! MS-DOS edit.com was honestly a
| much better experience.
| Jblx2 wrote:
| Better than Edlin I suppose.
| Jblx2 wrote:
| I'd love to hear more about his programming journey. vi?
| EMACS? Nope, notepad.exe.
| fgonzag wrote:
| It's honestly short and pretty unique.
|
| He wrote a programming language for his master thesis, so
| obviously he used it to write all his software. His first
| project was the POS/management system for his father's
| music store (Now famous as the Mexican company that
| acquired Sam Ash). I believe they didn't switch until
| around 2005 or so (so about 30 years maintaining it or
| training a software developer on it as a side thought)
|
| He then started a large sized customs software company with
| i that ended up getting acquired.. Everytime the language
| required a new feature the devs would just ask him (like
| when he had to write a graphical toolkit for it because it
| started as a text only runtime). There is no record of this
| language anywhere as far as I know.
|
| I believe around the 2000s as part of the sale of the
| company he rewrote the whole stack in C#. And he's been
| using it ever since, including the company we started
| together in 2013 (together doing a lot of work here). Still
| with good old Notepad and CSC.exe just like year 1.He
| curses everytime the ecosystem has big required changes
| (async, nuget) though I've managed to coerce him into
| keeping up with the times, dragging and screaming.
| GettingOld wrote:
| I'm only a decade younger - I write .Net (C#) professionally
| - work it is Windows & Visual Studio (there is no way I'd
| want to mange any project that size without an IDE, tbh I
| much prefer using a IDE since I first got one in early 90s)
|
| But at home - I use Jet Brains Rider (free non commercial)
| for C# .Net projects on Linux machines (Debian + KDE or Mint
| depending on machine)
|
| I wonder if you mean Notepad++ not Notepad - I find KATE on
| KDE is good enough, when I just want to edit a file, but I've
| run Notepad++ under wine before.
| fgonzag wrote:
| I mean Notepad the original.
|
| He tried textpad (the other included text editor ) at some
| point and hated it
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| I love Linux, I run it on all my computers and haven't run a
| proprietary OS at home since 2018. I've built up considerably
| instincts over the years to the point where I never have issues
| anymore. My Linux machines are far more stable than my Wife's
| Windows laptop at this point.
|
| Having said that, I don't begrudge people from using Windows or
| Mac. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, Linux has rough
| edges that most people really don't want to deal with. I'm
| willing to give Linux some grace because I believe in open
| source and want to support that world with my actions. But when
| someone complains about why their fingerprint reader doesn't
| work, all I can say is "yep, that can happen". I think the
| little niggles in Linux are worth it for having a free (as in
| freedom) OS, but as it turns out, most people don't value that.
| glitchc wrote:
| > I'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of personal
| computers. In my eyes, it's fundamentally inferior to Linux,
| and its superficial superiority only comes from the ecosystem,
| which is to say adoption, not some inherent trait.
|
| I'm not a Windows fanboy by any stretch, but it is a remarkably
| resilient OS. Case in point: I took the OS drive (SATA SSD)
| from my old workstation and installed it into a laptop. This
| was a Dell 7910, with a dual CPU Xeon configuration, NVidia
| graphics card and ECC memory. The laptop the drive was
| transplanted into was an old T520. The OS was Windows 10.
| Firing it up, I expected a kernel panic given how different the
| drivers would be between the two and resigned myself to a
| couple of hours using the Recovery partition. To my surprise,
| it booted up to the desktop and automatically started
| installing the missing drivers. In the meantime, I could
| actually use the darn thing.
|
| In all my years of using Linux, I have yet to see that work
| without a hitch. A chroot to modify fstab is usually the
| starting point, then comes the inevitable blacklist and driver
| removal. Linux LiveCDs come close, but this was a full fledged
| Windows install with custom swap file configurations, 10G
| network card, etc.
|
| Barring all this user-hostile behaviour from MS, at the OS
| level, Windows seems well-engineered.
| johnmaguire wrote:
| Why would you have to modify fstab? Surely you are using
| UUID/PARTUUID these days.
|
| I also wouldn't expect a kernel panic on Linux... Maybe no
| video though.
| Macha wrote:
| > In all my years of using Linux, I have yet to see that work
| without a hitch.
|
| For what it's worth, I used the same Arch install from 2014
| to 2024, with it spending time in three desktops and a VM
| across that time.
| lm28469 wrote:
| I recently installed Fedora and holy shit it's still not
| production ready. During the initial setup you need to input
| your location, you have a choice between clicking on the map or
| typing the city, I don't remember which it is but one of them
| makes your system freeze, no way to get out other than a
| reboot. It's documented since Fedora 42, and was still there on
| Fedora 43
|
| Every time my swap is full the entire system freezes for a good
| second, sometimes it stays stuck, no way out besides rebooting,
| I've never experienced that in any other OS ever
|
| It's impossible to get more than a few days of uptimes, it's
| like the ram is never ever freed, last time I had to reboot my
| mac I had close to one year of uptime.
|
| A friend sent me a png to print, every time I open it with the
| image viewer it uses 100% of my memory instantly (10+gb),
| causing the system to freeze. The image is 700kb and opens fine
| on gimp
|
| I completely understand why people stick to the alternatives,
| it's way too easy to "hold it wrong" with Linux
| maxrecursion wrote:
| I have been daily driving fedora on my laptop for over a year
| now and haven't ran into a single issue. Not saying you're
| lying, but if you are having that many serious problems it
| might be a hardware issue.
|
| The OS is definitely stable and perfectly fine to use.
| lm28469 wrote:
| The same hardware runs windows and hackintosh flawlessly.
| bugsliker wrote:
| If we're collecting anecdata, I installed Fedora fresh on a
| framework a couple months ago. I like the cohesiveness of
| GNOME these days but i've seen a couple of issues like non
| stop notification bells on repeat or inability to wake
| screen when plugged in to a monitor that feel not prod
| ready.
|
| I don't know that i'd expect windows to be much better
| either, but that's my experience.
| wasabi991011 wrote:
| Picking the location odurong setup is a hardware issue? I
| find that hard to believe.
|
| And do you mean hardware issue or hardware incompatibility?
|
| The former would most likely manifest itself across many
| operating systems, but if you mean the latter... why would
| that matter in terms of a given person deciding whether to
| switch to Linux?
| nomel wrote:
| > it's fundamentally inferior to Linux
|
| The context here is the average user, so you need to consider
| if this they share this perspective of _fundamentally
| inferiority_ that is so obvious to you.
|
| Here's a litmus test: Put your _non-programmer relative_ in
| front of each, have them do some common simple tasks, like
| print an email on their printer, and ask them.
|
| You are _*NOT*_ an average user.
|
| edit: people are focusing on the printer too much. my point was
| _some arbitrary task they would be common to an average user_.
| OMMIT THE PRINTER. After they use their computer as they
| normally would for a week, what is it exactly that so clearly
| results in their perception of "obviously inferiority"? My
| claim is somewhere between _nothing_ and _the very first thing
| to go wrong_.
| QuercusMax wrote:
| Setting up printers on Linux is way easier than windows.
| Usually you don't have to do anything at all special at all
| as long as it's a fairly well known manufacturer. ChromeOS is
| just linux after all, and it uses the exact same CUPS infra
| under the hood, and it works just fine.
|
| On Windows you often have to download and install drivers,
| which is always a headache.
| xp84 wrote:
| Tbh all OSs handle printers that way. Ones that have
| drivers "just work." It's just that if you buy any printer
| in the store you can be assured that if it isn't on that
| list of drivers that ships with the OS, there will be a
| driver for Windows and Mac from the manufacturer. You don't
| get that assurance automatically with another OS.
| nomel wrote:
| > as long as ...
|
| Manufacturers selling Linux computers could attach little
| stickers with ""As long as..." Inside", to commemorate the
| official motto of "The Year of the Linux Desktop", for the
| last 30 years. :P
| cwillu wrote:
| Sit a non-programmer relative in front of each, and have them
| plug in a printer. One of them will end up with malware and
| _maybe_ be able to print something, the other will almost
| certainly not even notice that they didn 't have to do
| anything to make the print item in gmail put words on paper.
| ben-schaaf wrote:
| > Put your non-programmer relative in front of each, have
| them do some common simple tasks, like print an email on
| their printer, and ask them.
|
| My grandma does this all the time from her Linux laptop. My
| grandpa needed help getting it to work the first time under
| Windows.
| layer8 wrote:
| There is a reason that this submission is currently on the top
| of the front page. There are enough "hackers" that still care
| about Windows, because it did a lot of things right.
| kube-system wrote:
| Normal people buy computers at a retail store and use it in the
| factory configuration indefinitely. They think about changing
| their OS in the same way you think about changing the type of
| hem stitching on your slacks.
| nomel wrote:
| > They think about changing their OS in the same way you
| think about changing the type of hem stitching on your
| slacks.
|
| This is just absolutely _beautiful_. My grandmother _would_
| often identify stitching on my slacks. I was, quite
| literally, blind to it!
| LambdaComplex wrote:
| > My grandmother would often identify stitching on my
| slacks. I was, quite literally, blind to it!
|
| I'm telling myself that this is an intentional "blind hem"
| joke.
| kube-system wrote:
| The world is a big place and while Linux is very visible to
| many of us it is irrelevant to the mindshare of the vast
| majority of the world. Not because of ignorance, but
| because it legitimately isn't that important to their life.
|
| I don't care about the hem on my pants. My pants either
| work, or I get a new pair. This is most people's
| relationship with their computer.
| applfanboysbgon wrote:
| Windows is not technically inferior to Linux. To the extent it
| has problems, it is mainly because of top-down anti-user
| behaviour mandated from corporate. But anyone capable of using
| Linux is capable of hacking out that BS and getting a generally
| superior experience. I use both literally side-by-side, two
| laptops with a KVM switch, and I still greatly prefer Windows
| for many reasons.
|
| Some reasons: Even as a low-level programmer fully capable of
| resolving problems, I want to spend my time working on my
| programs, not working on making my OS work, and Linux
| frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down issues.
| Windows does a better job of managing memory/swaps, at least
| out of the box. Windows has a stable userland with 30 years of
| backwards compatibility. Windows makes good use of both GUIs
| and CLIs, letting you choose whichever is faster for the task,
| while Linux distros and devs have some kind of bizarre
| ideological purity culture and generally refuse to make good
| GUIs. Windows has a built-in tool for easily making full system
| images while the system is running, without requiring the image
| destination be larger than the system drive including unused
| space. Windows developers are not so in love with dynamically
| linked system libraries that dependency management becomes a
| pain in the ass. Windows generally has a polished UX with a lot
| fewer papercuts.
| chistev wrote:
| What about Macs, you use those?
| applfanboysbgon wrote:
| I have never tried one, I'm not interested in Apple's
| walled garden approach. Buying a Macbook and being unable
| to put a (properly working) alternative OS on it if I don't
| like the one on it is a non-starter to me.
| rolandhvar wrote:
| +1 on the UI thing.
|
| I don't know what it is, but UI on Linux always feels too
| disjoint from the rest of the system.
|
| It's a bit like how Windows 3.11 was just UI-on-DOS. I get
| the same feeling.
|
| Don't get me wrong - I love Linux for all its CLI use but for
| some reason I've never been able to primary drive it without
| going insane after a week.
|
| Windows just seems to feel more put-together and I guess
| that's because the kernel probably has hacks to support
| Office, and Explorer probably has hacks to support the
| kernel, etc.
|
| The only other system I've felt this level of unity in is
| FreeBSD with its userland+kernel harmony.
|
| Maybe I need to try a Linux desktop again as I haven't done
| it in ~10y but the other comment here about Fedora not
| feeling production ready doesn't inspire much hope...
|
| Any ideas?
| edstarch wrote:
| Windows UI is the _most_ disjoint though, with designs
| accumulated over the past 20 years still kicking in various
| places.
|
| You really should, yeah. I've given up Linux as a daily
| driver in favor of a MacBook but I do have a work mandated
| Windows machine and I hate that thing with a passion. I
| cannot think of a single thing that's better on it than on
| my MacBook or any Linux distro I've ran as a daily driver.
|
| In fact, most of the time I want to do any tasks which are
| not directly Teams or MS office related I find it easier to
| just use WSL.
| bargainbin wrote:
| I'm daily driver Linux now after three decades of Windows
| usage. I have Bazzite-dx (Fedora based) on my desktop and
| Cachy (Arch based) on my laptop, both using KDE Plasma for
| the GUI.
|
| I can't place my finger on it, but Bazzite feels more
| "coherent" despite using the exact same GUI.
|
| I had the misfortune of using a Windows 11 machine the
| other day and I didn't even recognise it. They've taken a
| huge misstep with the Copilot rollout.
| pdonis wrote:
| I run Trinity Desktop [1] on Linux. It's basically KDE 3
| kept up to date (and has been around as long as I've been
| running Linux), and has a more or less similar look and
| feel to Windows from the 98/XP days. I run it on Ubuntu
| (currently 22.04), but it works with most distros.
|
| Many Linux users seem to like upgrading (if you can call it
| that) to the latest eye candy every time Gnome or KDE or
| whoever puts out a new release. I'm the opposite. I do
| think much of the UI work in Linux has done more harm than
| good. But that's the nice thing about Linux: I don't have
| to care, precisely _because_ of the lack of such close
| coupling between the GUI and the underlying OS. I can 't
| stand the GUI that comes by default with Ubuntu, but I just
| don't use it; I use something else instead.
|
| [1] https://www.trinitydesktop.org/index.php
| fsloth wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| I want to have a computer with stable vendor supported OS so
| _I can do my stuff_ not tweak some os level configs.
|
| I _don't_ want to spend my time playing an os systems
| programmer.
|
| OS is a _component_. Like the wifi driver. I think it's great
| some people love developing wifi drivers but personally I
| just want network that-just-works because there are billion
| other cool things you can do with a computer.
|
| Similarly I want an OS that just works! Without asking me to
| do a anything! Because _i don't really care_. (I mean i care
| it works but i expect the engineers actually developing an os
| offering to have a far better idea than myself what is a good
| stable default config for the system)
| nine_k wrote:
| > _I want an OS that just works!_
|
| This is exactly why modern Windows is problematic. MacOS is
| better. A right Linux distro (e.g. Fedora Silverblue) on
| right hardware (e.g. Thinkpad T series) also just
| works(tm); this basically the same kind of limitation as
| with MacOS.
|
| I wish they issued a Windows Rock Stable edition. Ancient
| as rocks (Win7 look, or maybe even WinXP look), every known
| bug fixed, every feature either supported fully, or
| explicitly not supported. No new features added. Security
| updates issued regularly. It could be _highly_ popular.
| andybak wrote:
| MacOS has the drawback today any software compiled more
| than x years no longer works.
|
| That is an unforgivable sin in my eyes.
| b473a wrote:
| Mac works great out of the box. Linux can do whatever you
| want if you put some work into it. Windows sits kind of
| in the middle, and it turns out for a lot of people
| that's a comfortable spot even with its trade-offs.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| Linux just isn't friendly to newcomers.
|
| 1. Lots of rough edges "yeah it almost works if you tweak it
| a little" yeah thank you but no.
|
| 2. CLI is better for doing the thing you want, but GUI is
| better for discovering what options you have in the first
| place. The fact that GUI is an afterthought on Linux says a
| lot.
| applfanboysbgon wrote:
| Not only is GUI better for discovery, it's not even always
| true that CLI is better for doing the thing you want.
| Depending on the complexity of the task, building a tower
| of CLI commands/arguments can be a pain, and if it's
| something you do ~once a month, good luck remembering the
| syntax. A GUI lets you not even have to think about it, not
| have to memorise syntax or go out of your way to write a
| script to save it. And while CLI is great for things you do
| routinely... Windows still offers great CLI support, so you
| simply get the best of both worlds.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> anyone capable of using Linux is capable of hacking out
| that BS and getting a generally superior experience._
|
| MS has made hacking out the BS harder and harder with each
| new version of Windows. Back in the Windows XP days, yes, I
| could avoid a lot of the BS on my home Windows computer
| (although I still had to deal with it at work because work
| computers are usually locked down so employees don't even
| have admin rights to them--if I have an issue with my work
| computer I have to put in a support ticket to the IT
| department). But even then there was enough friction on my
| Windows home computer to make me start using Linux at home.
| For a few years I was running both OSs at home, but even that
| got to be too difficult, and I simply stopped using the
| Windows computer at home, at least for my own use (see
| below). I've never looked back.
|
| I do still have one Windows laptop at home, because some of
| the Python programs I write (I write them on the Linux
| computer) have to run on Windows, so I have to have a way of
| testing them. Even that is clunky compared to how easy it is
| to do things on my Linux computers. That laptop runs Windows
| 10, and if I am ever forced to upgrade it to Windows 11, I
| will probably just stop testing my programs on Windows
| (fortunately my livelihood does not depend on being able to
| do that), because Windows 11 is a nonstarter for me; the BS
| level has just gotten too high.
|
| _> Linux frequently demands that I spend hours chasing down
| issues._
|
| As someone who has been running Linux at home for well over
| twenty years now, this has _not_ been my experience. Back
| when I still had Windows computers at home, I spent more time
| dealing with issues with them than I have spent dealing with
| issues with my Linux computers at home.
|
| I would make similar comments about the rest of your post.
| observationist wrote:
| It's pure irrationality.
|
| The only winning move is not to play - leave behind all the
| Windows and Apples garbage, and life gets remarkably better.
| I'm almost 6 months in switching from Windows to Linux and it's
| so awesome that my computer doesn't fight me anymore. I've done
| 10% of the troubleshooting under Linux that I had to do under
| Windows, and that was just early on; once things work, they
| stay working, and there's no sense of dread about what was
| going to break next after every patch Tuesday.
| nomel wrote:
| > It's pure irrationality.
|
| For the masses, it's pure practicality.
|
| My mother calls up geeksquad when she has a problem with
| windows. Who do you call when you have a problem with debian
| or ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using
| wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ...
|
| When her printer dies, does she go to the store and buy a new
| one, or does she get online to research what's compatible
| with her distro?
|
| The expertise required to cover the surface area known as
| "linux on the desktop" is going to make that a _much_ more
| expensive call, and a "i can't help you with that" from
| anywhere she can buy a printer in person.
| observationist wrote:
| Maybe at one point in time; I've had objectively fewer
| issues with Linux than I had with Windows, and they only
| happened because I was doing nerd shit; in normal person
| average user mode, I haven't had any issues whatsoever. I
| installed linux on a laptop, and it's been an absolute joy
| to use. Network, printers, browsers, regular apps, all that
| stuff just works. Windows would reliably fuck up something
| important on a weekly basis, whether it was drivers,
| security, printers, app compatibility; I'd spend a minimum
| of 30 minutes a week simply overcoming some arbitrary
| bullshit Microsoft decided to inflict on me.
|
| I honestly think there are many distros that are more than
| up to the task of handling normal users and providing an
| objectively better, easier, less hassling experience than
| windows out of the box.
|
| Windows is horrifically awful. Everything it does is
| completely, thoroughly enshittified. User experience and
| quality control are a distant memory. If you're so jaded to
| it and just letting it happen, I _highly_ recommend getting
| on Linux ASAP- it 's not like it was 5 or 10 or 20 years
| ago; the desktop experience is just good. If you absolutely
| need Excel or some other Windows software, look for the
| cloud version, find an alternate workflow.
|
| >>Who do you call when you have a problem with debian or
| ubuntu or arch setup to use kde or gnome or xfc using
| wayland or x11 with systemd or launchd or ...
|
| Any AI. they all have libraries worth of troubleshooting
| sessions and successful linux troubleshooting workflows and
| documentation and so on in the training data. Agentic
| training and operator training flows often include Linux
| environments, specifically. Any IT person worth half a damn
| is going to be using AI and will be more than capable of
| resolving anything it is possible to resolve. Support your
| local independent IT businesses, too.
|
| But again, get the Linux PC working and I'd bet a good
| donut that it takes less work to maintain and is easier to
| use - even for our moms.
| Jblx2 wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47448328
| LambdaComplex wrote:
| Enterprises love Windows for the ability to centrally manage an
| entire fleet's configuration using Active Directory. Is there
| anything for Linux that comes close to that?
| kuerbel wrote:
| Univention Corporate Server.
| malfist wrote:
| If my middle monitor didn't require a screen resolution change
| and revert to not be black after every boot or wake I'd use
| Linux all the time, but right now I can't make it work without
| a big hassle and believe me, I tried
| fsloth wrote:
| Ok.
|
| Look.
|
| I guess we all care about software business here.
|
| And computer? It's what consumers buy from store. Preferably in
| cybermonday or similar sale.
|
| To run the software they ran on their previous computer.
|
| They hope slightly faster. But honestly? They couldnt tell.
| Anyway the new computer is shinier.
|
| OS? What's that? (They honestly could not care less)
|
| They dont buy apple for the os. They buy it for the brand.
| inferniac wrote:
| "it's fundamentally inferior to Linux"
|
| I installed linux mint on a new drive in January
|
| Firefox was tearing awfully on just scrolling
|
| Surely I just need to install Nvidia drivers
|
| Install drivers, but they dont work due to some secure boot
| interaction with driver signing, that made me jump through
| quite a few hoops (thx to AI for walking me through it fairly
| well)
|
| I'm sorry but an average person is not ready for this level of
| bs in their daily life
| hatthew wrote:
| I am a very technical person, living on a computer for the
| majority of my life by this point, and I've spent at least 3000
| hours on each of the big 3 OSes. I like windows, because 95% of
| things just work. I love the philosophy of linux, I love its
| technical specificity, I love that with enough effort it's
| possible to do almost anything on it. But at the end of the day
| the computer is a means to an end, and windows is the sweet
| spot between customizability and fiddliness that lets me focus
| on the end rather than the means.
| e-dant wrote:
| Linux does not have a marketing team. Microsoft, Apple, Google
| do. The market is not efficient, it is gullible.
| santoshalper wrote:
| The ecosystem is the operating sytem.
| chrysoprace wrote:
| You've gotta understand that most people outside of IT have
| very little to no computer literacy. They want something that
| just works, and Linux doesn't do that.
|
| I've completely replaced Windows with Bazzite since November
| and it's been great for me, but it's not been without issues.
| Those issues are doable for me, but if I put Bazzite, Fedora,
| Linux Mint or any of the other beginner friendly distros on
| anybody else's PC they'll encounter a roadblock that they won't
| know how to resolve and that'll taint their Linux experience.
| Not to mention spotty hardware drivers (I've had several wifi
| drivers just stop working with an update, which is infuriating
| if you don't have a reliable wired connection), volunteer
| software for many configurations (OpenRGB doesn't support my
| motherboard), nVidia drivers and finding alternatives to
| software people know and use like Office and Photoshop.
|
| These might not seem like a big deal, but they're dealbreakers
| for many and they'd rather put up with some dodgy window resize
| behaviour or their OS spying on them.
| paxys wrote:
| Windows is superior to Linux because people can actually use
| it. Everything else is secondary.
| esseph wrote:
| [delayed]
| aduwah wrote:
| I had a chat with a Linux fan the other day. They said Linux is
| better because you can replace kernels easily to get driver
| support for something that wasn't working.
|
| The problem is that I do not want to mess around to make things
| work. This is the power of Windows. Everything is built around
| it and it does not need or want you to keep hacking it.
|
| Don't get me wrong I am working on Mac and my personal dev
| laptop is a Linux Mint, but sometimes it physically hurt to
| find something that sends me down a rabbit hole yet again on
| Linux. I just think the whole "you have to hack it because you
| can and otherwise you don't really own it" thing is a big
| hurdle on Linux that keeps mainstream peeps to stay away
|
| Not sure if I made sense, but yeah basically in order to
| challenge Windows Linux would need to "just work" which is not
| the case right now (or ever was)
| Waterluvian wrote:
| It's absolutely wild to me just how unaware tech people can be
| to how far from normal their experience is. Like this is just
| not even close to understanding what the game even is. We'd all
| be better off if we could somehow impart a lot more empathy for
| everyone to be even just aware of other life contexts.
| esseph wrote:
| [delayed]
| adamddev1 wrote:
| Drivers for laptops. Do all the sound cards work flawlessly? Is
| the power usage/battery life similar? Sadly this is a big part
| of what holds it back.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> I 'm somewhat surprised that Windows is still most of
| personal computers._
|
| The reason is simple: Microsoft has a lock on PCs used by
| corporate and government employees, so the vast majority of
| people who use computers at work use Windows computers. And so
| they naturally buy the same kind of computer for home that
| they're used to using at work. People like me, who run Linux at
| home even though I'm forced to use Windows at work, are
| outliers. And probably always will be. So the only way for the
| Linux desktop to really take off would be for large corporate
| customers and governments to switch from Windows to Linux. I
| would love it if that happened, but I'm not holding my breath.
| natas wrote:
| In business, the "best" solution doesn't win--the one that
| aligns with incentives does. You can argue Linux is technically
| better than Windows, but Windows wins in many orgs because of
| familiarity, vendor support, existing tooling, and lower
| perceived risk. Adoption beats superiority.
| IAmGraydon wrote:
| While Linux may seem like a better experience to the
| technically inclined, it is an utter mess to the average
| computer user. Linux is like a Lotus Elise: fast, bare bones,
| responsive, and a pure sports car for racecar drivers. They
| don't care that it has no air conditioning, no power windows,
| no power locks, no remote start, no padding on the seats. Put
| an average driver in it and they hate it. Then there's Windows,
| which is kind of like a Mercedes - a technical wonder, but over
| the years they've tacked so many things on it that now we have
| a cooled cup holder, 4D surround sound, and a god damn glowing
| logo on the front. But the core has been forgotten for all of
| the creature comforts. Put a racecar driver in this and they
| hate it. Put your average driver in it and they think it's the
| bees knees.
|
| You, I, and everyone on HN are all racecar drivers. Our view of
| Windows is heavily skewed by our technical knowledge, but it is
| exactly what it's supposed to be - the operating system of the
| masses. The masses will never love Linux...it's very philosophy
| is antithetical to what makes a good operating system for the
| average user. The idea that Linux could ever take serious
| ground from Windows is never going to happen. It is purely
| wishful thinking, but it will always have its place in
| infrastructure and for geeks like you and I.
|
| All of that said, for daily driving, I'll take the Mercedes.
| kayhantolga wrote:
| "What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about
| Windows and want it to be better."
|
| I gave up a long time ago hoping Windows would get better. At
| this point, I just hope it does not get worse.
| mkirsten wrote:
| Interesting headline. And I start reading as a MS skeptic. Maybe
| they finally got it? Maybe MS have realized why Windows really is
| so crappy. I read the first entry, bolded, in the bullet list. It
| reads " More taskbar customization, including vertical and top
| positions".
|
| I press snooze and get on with my day
| EastSmith wrote:
| I've used Windows since 3.11 and I am using macOS for 5+ years
| now for work (requirement).
|
| Switched to Linux on my personal devices 2 years ago and using
| Ubuntu and PopOS! on two different laptops. I've had very small
| number of issues. Can't understand people moving to Mac - it is
| the same messed half backed OS as both Windows and Linux
| (flavors). With the llms these days, any linux issue is fixable
| within minutes.
|
| With Linux at least I don't have to worry about privacy.
| heap_perms wrote:
| Yes!
|
| > With the llms these days, any linux issue is fixable within
| minutes. I think this point is really it. What in the past
| needed a 40min google search to fix something, llms now fix it
| in seconds.
| vadepaysa wrote:
| > File Explorer is one of the most used surfaces in Windows. Our
| first round of improvements will focus on a quicker launch
| experience, reduced flicker, smoother navigation and more
| reliable performance for everyday file tasks.
|
| Really? it took "user feedback" for one of the world's best
| software companies to realize one of the most fundamental parts
| of the OS was broken?
|
| I have been long on $MSFT for a while now, but my faith as an
| investor stands shook.
| zug_zug wrote:
| Whatever, I'm just counting the time until I can drop windows
| entirely... right now I just need it for gaming, but I'm thinking
| maybe Valve's OS will be the replacement
| mattstir wrote:
| I can't guarantee a great experience, but anecdotally my
| brother and I have had no issues in the last ~12 months playing
| all types of games on Linux. Only games which require kernel-
| level anti-cheat are unavailable. Otherwise, Proton and native
| clients (when available) have been rock solid, and I've been
| surprised that some games (like Minecraft) actually run much
| better than in Windows.
| smartmic wrote:
| Interesting how often they use the word ,,craft". For me, a sign
| that AI fatiguge is a real issue, not only among Windows users.
| Good, maybe a small, first step towards down-regulation of the
| hype.
| Grimblewald wrote:
| This reads like the way they'll try to implement is
|
| """ ok copilot, implement these changes, make no mistakes """
|
| Having learned absolutely nothing from their existing sins.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| "Improved Feedback Hub" is a code for "The corner that we told
| the plebs to scream into was close enough to the executives that
| they could hear some of the angry swearing, so we moved everyone
| over to a padded room in the basement where they can't bother
| anybody."
| deng wrote:
| If you want to know how serious to take this, just look at this
| gem:
|
| > Enhancing Search: [...] Clearer and more trustworthy results,
| with results from content on your device easy to understand and
| clearly distinct from web results
|
| So yeah, you still get web results in your search bar, a feature
| absolutely zero people want and which is just there to fake Bing
| success, just with a little divider now next to the applications
| the search failed to find.
| stevage wrote:
| Not just me then? Those integrated search features have been
| around for so long, and always irritating. I use macOS. Same
| problem. Searching your computer or searching the web are
| fundamentally different tasks. I'm curious if anyone actually
| approaches them the same.
| wnevets wrote:
| Its one of the first things I turn off.
| lloydatkinson wrote:
| How? I feel like every time I do my ~1 yearly Windows
| reinstall I need to google it and then alter half a dozen
| registry keys and a bunch of group policy settings, and some
| of them are the "old" settings now replaced with something
| even more vaguely named (probably on purpose).
| wnevets wrote:
| https://winaerotweaker.com/
| kace91 wrote:
| >Windows touches more people's lives than almost any technology
| on Earth. Every day, we hear from the community about how you
| experience Windows. And over the past several months, the team
| and I have spent a great deal of time analyzing your feedback.
| What came through was the voice of people who care deeply about
| Windows and want it to be better.
|
| >Today, I'm sharing what we are doing in response.
|
| Just these words are already off putting. The extremely careful
| wording to avoid anything minimally resembling recognizing an
| issue.
|
| It's ok to say we fucked up. It's empowering. Not being able to
| do it is a huge red flag.
| breve wrote:
| When the context menu in Windows 11 is aggressively worse than
| the context menu in Windows 10 I'm not sure what quality
| Microsoft is committed to.
| rjh29 wrote:
| Hiding most of the items by default and making it really hard
| to restore it! I had to try 3 different obscure methods to get
| the old context menu back.
|
| Which just tells me what I already know - Windows is actively
| hostile to power users, and they should be on Linux. Leave
| Windows for the less technically confident who need that stuff
| hidden away.
| hirako2000 wrote:
| > pause updates for longer when needed
|
| > all while reducing update noise with fewer automatic restarts
| and notifications.
|
| Pause for longer.. why not just stop. And resume when wanted.
|
| Fewer automatic restart. What about no automatic restart.
|
| I couldn't read any further. Mind bended leadership to think this
| sort of wording after the obvious fiasco would make users
| hopeful.
|
| I stopped using windows personally 15 years ago. My mental health
| improved right away. Forced to use Windows at work, I finally got
| liberated 4 years ago and my mental health got even better. I
| refuse since then employment forcing me to use this OS. It's a
| health hazard, always has been.
| 190n wrote:
| Later in the post they expand on that point:
|
| > More direct control over updates, including the ability to
| pause updates for as long as you need
|
| So it does sound like you'll be able to pause updates forever
| and also therefore not automatically reboot.
| sonofhans wrote:
| > "why not just stop"
|
| Because most regular people will never choose to turn them back
| on, that's why. We already know what the world looks like when
| millions of computers run an unsecured OS. Last I heard, a
| stock Windows 98 machine lasted 30 seconds online before being
| compromised. Automatic updates are good, and they're here to
| stay.
| lldb wrote:
| Apple has, AFAICT, never required automatic updates. I just
| checked the iOS 26 settings, and sure enough, I have both
| download and install automatically turned off. So it is
| possible.
| gmueckl wrote:
| Well, if yo allow random users to just stop updates forever in
| a non-managed environment, then a good portion of them won't
| remember to reenable them. This would create new breeding
| grounds for security vulnerabilities. Remember Sasser and
| Blaster?
|
| Average computer owners don't really care about their machines,
| let alone understand them. Computers are appliances to them
| like their washing machines and microwaves.
| nu11ptr wrote:
| > fewer automatic restarts
|
| No automatic restarts! I understand that in our security patching
| world that patching and restarting automatically is the default,
| fine, but there absolutely should be a dead simple way of
| disabling auto restarts in settings. I'm fine if it pesters me to
| restart or whatever, perhaps with growing alarm the longer I
| wait, but it should always be optional in the end. There are just
| no words for how bad it can be for mission critical workloads
| when your computer restarts without your consent. Please make
| disabling this simple.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I disagree, at least on end-user devices as opposed to servers.
|
| If you make it possible to defer updates indefinitely, users
| will. Guaranteed. Doesn't matter how urgent or critical the
| update is, how bad the bug or vulnerability it patches is, how
| disastrous the consequences may be: they'll never, ever
| voluntarily apply them.
|
| If you're running a server, and willing to accept the risk of
| deferral because 1) you're in a better position to assess the
| risk and apply compensating controls than a regular user is,
| and 2) you're OK accepting the personal risk of having to
| explain to your boss why you kept deferring the urgent patch
| until after it blew up in your face, then yes, you should have
| a control to delay or disable it.
|
| But end users? No. I use to believe otherwise, but now I've
| seen far, far too many cases where people train themselves to
| click "Delay 1 day" without even consciously seeing the dialog.
| phillipcarter wrote:
| Can we all just appreciate the sheer amount of writing and re-
| writing and executive review that had to go on to make this blog
| post go out? Goodness, I can smell the hand-wringing and
| political battling represented by these words through the wire.
| Incredible stuff.
| cat-turner wrote:
| An article like this coming out does not make me feel confident
| about its quality in the future.
| dgxyz wrote:
| Think they burned what little trust anyone has in them over the
| last couple of years.
|
| I have zero windows machines now and no promises will change
| that.
| jen20 wrote:
| Am I wrong in thinking that Windows 95 had the ability to
| reposition the task bar either horizontally or vertically? And
| someone actually chose to lead with that.
| ray_v wrote:
| > Windows touches more people's lives than almost any technology
| on Earth.
|
| This can not possibly be true, in several dimensions/metrics. I
| understand that this is mostly marketing bluster, but holy cow
| are they delusional here.
| kbelder wrote:
| >More fluid and responsive app interactions: Reducing interaction
| latency by moving core Windows experiences to the WinUI3
| framework.
|
| I think this is good, because they're talking about removing
| (hideously inappropriate) react and other web technologies from
| core OS components, and using proper native OS calls instead. But
| I'm not familiar with WinUI3. I only know Win32. Is WinUI3 a
| flash-in-the-pan system like their other UI attempts, or is it
| decent and stable?
| xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote:
| > Is WinUI3 a flash-in-the-pan system like their other UI
| attempts, or is it decent and stable?
|
| If you stay in the happy path, it's decent, definitely an
| improvement over their earlier attempts. Microsoft does seem
| committed to it, they're slowly converting Windows apps to
| WinUI.
|
| That said, the team is clearly understaffed; there are long-
| standing unresolved bugs, just search for "memory leak" on
| their GitHub issue tracker. Also native, non-.NET support is
| definitely an afterthought, it's barely documented and the
| tooling is super awkward. But at least, unlike WPF, it exists.
| topaz0 wrote:
| Highest priority is moving the toolbar???
| mattstir wrote:
| Although I haven't touched Windows in a few years now, my
| understanding is that the OS has been having a very rough few
| months with unstable updates, bricked devices, etc. And yet the
| first thing they mention is moving around the task bar? Is that
| really what they want to lead with? It's just baffling. It's also
| a bit disturbing to see "reduced flicker for file explorer" as a
| main focus. Just how bad is the Windows experience?
| peacebeard wrote:
| Their vulnerable introduction leading into the 4 task bar
| screenshots made me laugh out loud.
| smcleod wrote:
| They feel like they're scrambling for any form of relevance when
| in reality that ship has long since sailed.
| glitch13 wrote:
| > This includes the ability to skip updates during device setup
| to get to the desktop faster...
|
| There's only one complaint that practically everyone has
| regarding what's required "during device setup," and it's not
| updates. I can't say I'm shocked that it's being ignored.
| lateforwork wrote:
| I don't see anything about respecting user preferences. Things
| that drive me up the wall about Windows: attempting to switch me
| to Edge, Bing etc after every update. Apple doesn't do that.
| Also, forcing me to sign in using a Microsoft account as opposed
| to a local account.
| XCSme wrote:
| So, we can move the taskbar, more AI, and some paint-flashing
| fixes
| wxw wrote:
| I grew up on Windows, switched to Mac (college and beyond), and
| over time, have come to hate Windows. It feels like it doesn't
| have a user's best interest in mind. I'm just there to have
| Copilot or XYZ service shoved down my throat. I'm not sure Mac is
| actually any less sinister but at least it feels less so.
| motbus3 wrote:
| I want to believe but I can't. We know how much product decision
| there is in there putting business on top of quality. Doing shady
| stuff and having at least weird round tables. Putting a spy on
| everyone's house.
|
| For now, I am so bitter about windows, that I just want it to
| stop being a thing
| sunaookami wrote:
| Recently got an HP ProBook for a relative to replace his old 2011
| ThinkPad with Kubuntu 24.04 and I was shocked how laggy and
| unusable Windows 11 was. Every menu has tons of latency, programs
| take forever to start, even something simple like Rufus. File
| Explorer is a laggy mess, the whole OS feels like you are walking
| through mud. After a reboot there was a fullscreen message about
| "finish setting up the device" (??? it's already set up) with the
| only options being Confirm and "Remind me in 3 days". Thankfully
| my relative was comfortable with Kubuntu and all his files were
| there (and frankly we were too lazy to set everything up from
| scratch again) so I just cloned his old drive and Kubuntu runs
| like a dream! I'm not someone who would advocate for Linux
| because it still has very rough edges (even more so than 10 years
| ago somehow) and has a higher learning curve but Windows 11 is
| unbelievable bad. I switched to macOS roughly around Windows 11's
| release so my only other experience was at work (where I
| constantly complain about the TWO context menus!!!).
|
| The last performant Windows version was Windows 8, despite its UX
| flaws. It actually made old computers faster and it started going
| downhill with the very first Windows 10 Technical Preview. I
| doubt that MS will reach that level of performance and stability
| again.
| _aleph2c_ wrote:
| It's not an OS anymore. It's an AI that spies on you while you
| work and sends your information back to servers controlled by
| intelligence services. Once your data is there, more AIs spend
| endless resources examining (thinking about) your life, cross
| referencing your windows behavior with the information they
| receive about you from data brokers. It's a threat to your
| personal sovereignty, your corporate/national security, remove it
| immediately. Switch to Linux.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| Key message at Microsoft:
|
| "Windows has lost its way! Move the task bar!"
| stevage wrote:
| > As part of this, we are reducing unnecessary Copilot entry
| points, starting with apps like Snipping Tool, Photos, Widgets
| and Notepad.
|
| So they threw a lot of spaghetti at the wall, and this is the bit
| where some of it falls off.
| msalihb wrote:
| they joke with us. What we want is just a pure basic Windows
| experience without AI things make everything slower and not
| secure. What they give is taking the taskbar to left - right -
| top
| urba_ wrote:
| Me and my family still cannot believe that I bought a Macbook
| this week.
|
| I used Windows since Windows 95 (back in '96, I was 5 years old).
|
| But still having regular blue screens come back with Windows 11..
|
| I am better off selling my 64GB of RAM, than Windows Defender
| eating a third of it at random times
| throw_winblows wrote:
| I recently took a vow to sneer less but it's really hard not to.
| lawik wrote:
| The cadence these topics were written in was so Apple keynote
| video that I had Tim Cook's voice presenting it in my head. I
| hope that's not just me.
|
| More in the topic. Good that Windows Update will suck less. Did
| the Discover-something-or-other-imply less start-memu ads, I
| couldn't tell..
| tonymet wrote:
| Microsoft deserves credit where credit is due. Windows Insider is
| a great program that takes a lot of effort to manage, and this
| mea culpa is a response to community feedback .
|
| Windows is a fabulous operating system. I encourage people to see
| it as a tool and as an engineering marvel, rather than as an
| enemy or target of ridicule. I've been tremendously productive on
| Windows, and I have run every desktop OS , including Gentoo (when
| it used to take 2+ days to compile), BeOS, OS2 , Redhat on Power
| PC, FreeBSD and loads of niche operating systems.
|
| If you like Operating systems, and hate Windows, I encourage you
| to read Show Stoppers about Dave Cutler making NT. It's an
| amazing accomplishment, and will probably convert you from a
| Windows hater to an NT Kernel appreciator.
| mijoharas wrote:
| From the title I thought this might be a reaction to the
| "Microslop" epithet and a commitment to increase code quality and
| reduce bugs.
|
| Guess not.
|
| It's a shame, I'd appreciate more than a single 9 of uptime from
| GitHub (luckily I don't need to interact with anything else
| Microsoft related)
| danielodievich wrote:
| Back in the Longhorn (that is, Vista) days, I was friends with an
| engineering manager on the core desktop services team. He told me
| about how the "combine icons" in taskbar feature came to be. I
| think it came out after XP? mmm. I think yeah it came in Vista
| right after XP. Or was it one of the XP service packs? Anyhow, it
| was endlessly introduced by PMs, and endlessly cut after
| obnoxious reviews. Per this guy he just coded it one day and
| pushed it into daily build. Got in a lot of trouble but it made
| it.
|
| Glad they're putting taskbar back into whatever sides. I despise
| my work Mac's single location at the bottom, wasteful waste of
| space. I've had icons on the left since Windows 95 and I like
| them there.
| grandpoobah wrote:
| Let me use Windows 10 for 10 more years. You're full of shit
| Microsoft.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| This is too little and too late, but you must give them credit
| for having the introspection ability to even go this far. Yes,
| the bar for microsoft is so low as to be handicap-accessible.
| paxys wrote:
| Embedding your signature at the end of a blog post is such a
| bullshit executive move. You just know this guy has been playing
| corporate politics for the last 30 years.
| OrvalWintermute wrote:
| What about:
|
| - native quick launch bar
|
| - killing telemetry
|
| - killing UI kludge
|
| - permitting non-MS apps again
| hyperadvanced wrote:
| lol microslop
| whirlwin wrote:
| Windows is just a wonderful box of chocolate that keeps
| expanding. You never know what you get, all brilliant frontier
| tech innovations like Edge, Bing, the calculator, vertical
| taskbar, and now the highly intelligent Copilot, up there
| fighting with OpenCode, CC and others...!
| paxys wrote:
| Weren't you able to move the taskbar to the top in like Windows
| 98 and XP? So they deliberately took away a feature, are adding
| it back after _years_ , and selling this as "see we listen to our
| users!!"
| jwpapi wrote:
| I switched to Fedora as my first full time Linux OS and it's
| honestly changed my life.
|
| I can use my computer as a tool to do my craft and I'm not
| constantly sucked in ai features, news, or external search
| results, if I don't want it.
|
| OS stands for operating system, Microsoft is not that for me.
|
| I wouldn't know how to ever go back. I really hope I'm not forced
| to for some reason.
| legitster wrote:
| I actually don't have any particular problems with Windows. It's
| familiar, it works with everything I do, I don't have a reason to
| switch.
|
| That said, it's completely rudderless. How important is an
| operating system anymore anyway when most applications are just
| an Electron app anyway? What does consumer Windows provide
| Microsoft anymore besides a gateway to Office 365 and other
| actually profitable services?
|
| They also clearly fell asleep at the wheel on things like gaming.
| The future is clearly Linux-based.
|
| And on the hardware front, Microsoft seemed to have given up on
| their own consumer gear, and their partners have left them out to
| dry yet again.
| jtrn wrote:
| Oh goody. I left windows but this really makes me want to come
| back: More control over widgets and feed experiences!
|
| What a list of bangers!
| matt_heimer wrote:
| Funny, I just bought Start11 from Stardock for side taskbar
| placement. It was the oddest choice to remove that feature. On an
| ultrawide monitor it just makes so much sense.
| jovial_cavalier wrote:
| If Microsoft leadership thinks that they took a wrong turn in the
| last few years, they are in for a rude awakening (I hope). They
| took a wrong turn in the late 90s. Probably earlier than that.
| They have managed to stave off all user feedback for 30 years
| through litigious bullying and strict vendor lock-in. This isn't
| about the taskbar, man. This isn't even about Copilot.
|
| The pushback which you are only now starting to perceive is being
| caused by an entire generation of Microsoft intentionally and
| actively positioning itself in conflict with its customers.
|
| I understand that once you have a million customers, you can't
| really treat them right anymore. But Microsoft has not given a
| single shit about customer feedback, even in _aggregate_ for
| decades now.
|
| As I read this, all I can think is "too little, too late." I have
| watched in my workplace Windows go from being a product that we
| are happy to purchase to yet another piece of technology that we
| would simply replace were we not yoked to it.
|
| I guess even now they probably still don't care. Microsoft will
| continue printing money until the sun burns out.
| politelemon wrote:
| I will give them this one benefit of the doubt. The tone in the
| blog post is a straightforward one that is rare to see in such
| communications, without fluff or marketing speak. It's a rare
| acknowledgment of going a bit nuts with the copilot integrations.
| It did look like they were trying to see what sticks and
| presumably the answer is, we can't figure out what did.
|
| Personal computing is a rare niche these days thanks to the
| majority who have chosen to give over the personal aspect to the
| privacy hostile duopoly of MS and Apple (while celebrating doing
| so) who hold the leash.
| jmward01 wrote:
| No commitment to keeping your machine yours with local only
| accounts. No commitment to blocking ads. Honestly though, at this
| point even if they did massive changes and addressed privacy and
| ownership I would be years away from trying them again. They
| could pay me and I would say no.
| some-guy wrote:
| I'm at a large enterprise outfit, and "shoving things in your
| face" has been a problem with large software suites for a long
| time, long before the AI craze. I keep telling my skip level
| leadership that we need more User-Experience "mob goons" that
| have authority across product domains to (metaphorically) beat
| the living daylight out of bad "PM-brained" ideas.
| attentive wrote:
| "Repositioning the taskbar is one of the top asks we've heard
| from you".
|
| Tell us why it was removed in the first place, why it takes years
| to put it back and it's still future promises as of March 2026.
| That's just a clown show.
| KnuthIsGod wrote:
| Second raters working on a third rate operating system, offer
| fourth rate ameliorations for problems, their fifth rate product
| managers introduced.
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