[HN Gopher] Having Kids (2019)
___________________________________________________________________
Having Kids (2019)
Author : Anon84
Score : 132 points
Date : 2026-03-20 14:56 UTC (8 hours ago)
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| yanis_t wrote:
| Having kids is a gift. But this is one of these kinds of
| knowledge that once you know you immediately can't explain to
| others who don't.
| ozarkerD wrote:
| Great way of putting it. It's the sort of thing you just have
| to trust others and jump into. If you think about it too much
| it just doesn't make sense.
| drfloyd51 wrote:
| Love. Kids. Marriage. Divorce. Heartbreak. Death of a close
| partner.
|
| Things you can't explain to other people. But others with the
| experience just know.
| fdghrtbrt wrote:
| I understand the idea but I take issue with the wording.
|
| I CAN explain to others who don't. It's just that most of the
| time others aren't interested in hearing.
| Cerium wrote:
| A good friend of mine holds the belief that "having friends
| with kids is better than having kids of your own", and I
| definitely feel the "can't explain" part - there is an
| unexplainable reality when you have kids of your own.
| NoGravitas wrote:
| I'm also told that being a grandparent is a lot better than
| being a parent - you can give them back.
| matsemann wrote:
| My problem with that wording is that it comes across a bit
| arrogant or "I know better". I think many people _do_
| understand what you mean even if they don't have kids, they're
| just not that interested in those parts of life, which also
| should be fair.
| saghm wrote:
| At one of my earliest jobs (I must have been 19), I had a
| boss who was incredulous that I didn't drink alcohol and said
| that I would when I was 21 because it was "part of being an
| adult". I was pretty sure that making my own decisions rather
| than letting myself get pressured by others into what they
| assumed was best for me was a more important part of being an
| adult, and over a decade later I still don't drink.
|
| Comments like the parent one (pun semi-intended) basically
| sound the same to me as what my boss had said to me that day.
| Assuming that your own experience is universal is a flawed
| way to view the world, even if your experience is relatively
| common. If there are exceptions, it's not going to be easy to
| see them if you have an assumption already about it being
| universal, and if the people in the majority are loud enough
| and annoying enough about it, those who aren't will be even
| more incentivized not to share their experiences with you;
| I'd argue that people who regret having kids will potentially
| be reluctant to publicly say so. Most importantly, doing
| something because of societal pressure rather than genuine
| desire is going to greatly reduce the chance that someone
| truly finds it fulfilling, and there's an emotional cost for
| children who are raised by parents who basically regret
| having them.
|
| It's totally reasonable to say "I never truly understood how
| much I'd enjoy having kids until I did, and I suspect it's
| the same for a lot of other parents". There's no reason to go
| further than that unless you're pushing an idealogy rather
| than actually trying to say something you know is correct.
| lou1306 wrote:
| My problem with that problem is that, well, people who have
| kids definitionally know (better?) about having them. Like
| being able to experience a book in its original version vs a
| translation.
|
| It's okay if you don't want to learn Spanish, but when people
| discuss the struggles and delights of reading Cien Anos de
| Soledad they're not necessarily being arrogant, just stating
| their lived experience.
| matsemann wrote:
| But do you also go around and claim everyone that hasn't
| read that book in Spanish is losing out in life, or do you
| also recognize it's just not for everyone?
| genthree wrote:
| Each one's a reverse-lottery-ticket, though. Get the wrong draw
| and it's _not_ a gift. Can easily massively reduce the QOL for
| everyone around, including other siblings.
|
| Mostly due to chronic illnesses, of either the physical or
| mental variety.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| There is significant suffering in the world. You and everyone
| else are drawing lottery tickets everyday. Kids are far from
| its only source or cause. I'm ill equipped to unpack the
| meaning of life, but I am certain that suffering is
| fundamental--your comment is probing at this idea.
|
| This is a very difficult subject since there exists un-
| imaginable suffering and it's hard to reconcile that. That
| life is a gift under the umbrella of un-imaginable suffering.
| Perhaps, that's what spirituality tries to do, I don't know.
| genthree wrote:
| I think a lot of folks don't consider that each child comes
| with a high-enough-to-worry-about risk of negatively
| affecting the life of everyone in your family to a level on
| par with one of the adults in your family becoming
| permanently and severely disabled relatively early in life.
|
| Yeah sure we also risk some micromorts and the life-
| altering-disability equivalent every time we drive a car or
| get a sunburn, all right.
| briHass wrote:
| Amor fati.
| meitham wrote:
| As a father of 3, nothing is more satisfying than raising kids.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| As a father of 2, that really depends on a few factors.
|
| I'd wager that you picked a good wife and that your kids are
| healthy and bright.
|
| Things can go from satisfying to draining real quick.
| gdcbe wrote:
| Father of three here as well, amen to that. Soo hard, but oh so
| amazing.
| rauljordan2020 wrote:
| Kudos to you! I have one and it's been the hardest thing I've
| ever done and it has broken us entirely. We can never imagine
| having more than one given the difficulty, and are now finished
| at one 100%. Very huge admiration for parents of > 1. It's 10x
| the work and not just 2x the work
| mring33621 wrote:
| Having kids may not be for everyone, but it is the best thing
| that I have ever done in my life.
| dominotw wrote:
| I am am so scared of losing my job in tech due to ai and not
| being able to support my family.
| vardump wrote:
| Take a deep breath and just learn whatever you need to learn.
| AI or otherwise.
|
| You'll be fine. Being responsible for someone else gives you
| quite a bit of boost.
| sjkoelle wrote:
| lets be real we are gonna lose our jobs to these kids
| vardump wrote:
| While there are always those lows, when the kids are sick,
| scream, have tantrums, do something stupid, I would not trade a
| second of that away. A lot of happiness and laughs as well, along
| the way.
|
| They grow and you're privileged to live with them for a while.
| Also you'll grow with them.
|
| Having kids was my best decision ever. Thrice.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I also had kids, and while I love my kids I haven't loved
| spending time with my kids. This will hopefully change as they
| age, but the first six years have so far been very much a drag on
| my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven't
| provided fulfilment, and they haven't provided satisfaction. Some
| joy is there from time to time, definitely, but nothing in the
| way the author describes. Happiness for me typically starts after
| my kids are in bed or when I can escape them during work hours.
| My wife finds great happiness in our children, and I find
| happiness in that, but I'm desperately waiting for my kids to be
| old enough that I only need to spend time with them instead of
| constantly caring for them. Sorry if this is a bit of a dark
| comment, but I just wanted to say it's not always the experience
| this author had, even if it seems common. Edit: Generally, I
| regret having kids (because of the impact on my life, not the
| kids themselves), but I also can't change that decision and I
| would never back away from my choice - that's completely unfair
| to them, as well as my wife. Such is life. I try to keep looking
| forward to when they're older as a way of staying positive.
|
| I truly do give my kids my all though, and they have a wonderful
| life and are loved and cared for in all senses of those words.
| They're great kids and I give them everything necessary to be a
| great dad.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Do not despair, I felt the same. Mine are halfway to 18, still
| feel the same, unsure if it changes. I love them, just not the
| experience. I have friends who feel the same, so I/we are not
| alone.
|
| I tell others not to do it unless they are prepared to suffer.
| You won't know if its for you until you've already gone through
| the one way door. I wish others luck. For the unlucky, I wish
| grit and stoicism.
| fastball wrote:
| Would be interesting to see if there is other personality
| overlap with people that feel this way, which people could
| use as a pre-test for whether or not they would enjoy the
| experience of having kids.
|
| I wonder if there would be something identifiable in common
| if we fMRI'd your brains, as while you are definitely not
| alone it does seem like a pretty strong exception that makes
| the rule.
| ivan_gammel wrote:
| That could be something to put on Tinder profile.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Sure, give me a verified badge on dating marketplace apps
| (Feeld, Fetlife in my case) based on my fMRI imaging
| interpretation. Use it as input for the matching algo.
| Way more useful than simply putting "neurodivergent" in a
| profile imho. Adjacent to "If your policy doesn't exist
| in code, it doesn't exist."
| doubled112 wrote:
| If it makes you feel any better, you're not the only one that
| feels that way. I don't think it's said very often because it
| almost feels taboo to say it.
| swed420 wrote:
| Apparently there are even private Facebook groups dedicated
| to this purpose.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Sometimes I feel like there is this sense that you are a bad
| parent if you ever express that there are times you might
| wish you weren't a parent, even if the feeling is much more
| "I wish I didn't have to be a parent RIGHT NOW". You can even
| see in this thread that people are expressing how they feel
| sorry for the commenter's children because he feels regret
| sometimes about being a parent.
|
| I wanted to be a dad more than anything in the world, and I
| absolutely love my kids and I love being a dad.
|
| Most of the time.
|
| There is a TON of things you have to do as a parent that
| objectively sucks, and you have to do it no matter how you
| are feeling and no matter what else you also have to do. It
| is impossible not to feel trapped, at times, by the
| understanding that it never ends, that you are a parent
| 24/7/365.25 and that your kids dominate your life. I don't
| care how much you love your kids, you are going to feel that
| sometimes (or you are so strongly into the self-denial that
| you force yourself to pretend you always like it).
|
| That doesn't mean you aren't a good parent, or even that you
| made the right choice to be a parent. Most of the best things
| in life involve sacrifice, and doing things you don't want to
| have to do, and powering through even when you want to give
| up. It's cliche, but the struggle makes the rewards even
| sweeter. Doesn't mean the struggle doesn't suck sometimes,
| and you might want to give up, and you have to use all your
| self-control tricks to maintain.
|
| I feel even worse for parents who did IVF or other fertility
| treatments, or who adopt. In my conversations with some close
| friends who are in those situations, they talk about how much
| pressure they feel to never complain when it is hard. They
| spent a ton of money and effort and used insurance money and
| many doctors and procedures (or all the interviews and
| inspections and money for adoption) so they could have kids,
| and now they want to complain about being a parent? Of
| course, they still have all the same struggles and pains and
| nostalgia for their before life, no matter how much this is
| what they want.
|
| Anyway, I am not sure what my point is. I just want people to
| be honest with themselves, and other parents and future
| parents, about what the entire parenting experience really
| is. Sometimes I think parents don't want to scare potential
| parents off of being parents, which I think is understandable
| but overstated. There is simply no way to convey to non-
| parents what it is actually like to be a parent, and this
| applies to both the good and bad things. I thought my wife
| and I were prepared and knowledgeable and ready, and we were
| to the extent we could be. But so many things we imagined
| about what it would be like is not the reality at all, but
| even if we had a Time Machine I couldn't explain to my
| previous self what it is actually like. You just have to
| experience it... if you want to. I would never tell people
| they should have kids, because it is such an all-encompassing
| thing that everyone has to decide for themselves... all
| without knowing what it will actually be like.
|
| It is a hell of an adventure, though.
| fdghrtbrt wrote:
| I would like to hear in what sense you love your kids, given
| that "he first six years have so far been very much a drag on
| my life and productivity, and not much else. They haven't
| provided fulfilment, and they haven't provided satisfaction.
| (...) Happiness for me typically starts after my kids are in
| bed or when I can escape them during work hours."
|
| Do you say "I love my kids" because that's what everybody says,
| or is there any truth in it?
|
| EDIT: Just to be 100% clear: I mean absolutely no judgement.
| I'm not going to tell you off or try to change your mind. I ask
| out of pure curiosity.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I go above and beyond to give them a great life - to care
| about providing them with a rich education, as well as a wide
| variety of life experiences, to immerse them in quality time
| with friends and family, to travel with them and spend time
| amongst various cultures and amongst nature. I'm there for
| them whenever they need me, and also when they don't. I take
| the time to give genuine answers, to feed their curiosity, to
| make them great people. I give them the tools to explore
| things on their own and foster their independence. I also
| encourage risk taking while supporting them when it doesn't
| work out.
|
| Critically: I give them my full attention.
|
| I could choose to spend all that mental effort on myself, but
| I choose to spend it on them. That's as good a demonstration
| of love as any, in my book anyway.
|
| Edit: no offence taken! I didn't interpret it that way at
| all.
| majkinetor wrote:
| You are overdoing it. Don't know who is your role model,
| but that behavior is IMO what leads to that outcome.
|
| Show mostly by example, not by direct mentoring.
|
| What rich education and various cultures for 6-year-olds
| (or less)? That is simply irrelevant at that age and
| logistics of it just makes you hate everything. Do you even
| take your kids to dozen of arbitrary chosen classes?
|
| Tone it down, everybody will feel better and you won't have
| to fake it. Happy parent is more important for family than
| robo parent.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| It's not forced, and we do show by example. I also
| disagree that they're too young to be immersed in a love
| for education, culture, and people. Oh and music too. We
| listen to a lot of music (for fun!).
|
| My family and friends are multi-cultural so they're
| naturally exposed to several cultures, for example. It's
| also important to my wife and I as the world itself is
| multi-cultural, so having an appreciation that different
| people live their lives differently is important. We lead
| by example simply by living in a multi-cultural life and
| embracing it.
|
| Take that same approach and apply it across the rest of
| the points I made. Nothing is forced, I promise.
| fdghrtbrt wrote:
| What a rude thing to say. Different people raise their
| kids differently. There's nothing wrong with that answer.
| majkinetor wrote:
| It's you who are being rude by not allowing opinions. I
| am trying to help. I might be right or wrong or somewhere
| in between (which is all perfectly OK) but its on OP to
| judge it by himself if my words have any meaning for him.
| I said them because I noticed the pattern around me.
| Please stop with the drama.
| fdghrtbrt wrote:
| You're the one making drama. "nooo kids don't need a
| robot parent" lol
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Do you say "I love my kids" because that's what everybody
| says, or is there any truth in it?
|
| It is true that some people are not really cut out to be
| parents. But unfortunately it is difficult to tell whether
| that will be you or not. I see people looking at comments in
| threads like this and then chiming in with sentiments along
| the lines of "see, this is why I never wanted to be a
| parent." There is no way to know that, and such statements
| strike me as cope. Becoming a parent changes you, but you
| won't know how until you do it. There is a lot of biology and
| psychology in play, for certain.
|
| As I tell my own kids, however, be careful because you only
| get to become a parent _one_ time. Cannot blame someone for
| opting out of the risk, even if the counterfactual is that
| they would have been amazing parents with amazing children
| and been much happier.
| ozarkerD wrote:
| I can definitely relate. There's nights my wife and I get to
| bed and sorta just look at eachother and go "what the hell was
| that". Those days are hard.
|
| I find the days that I forget myself and throw myself into
| trying to be a good dad are the days I find joy in fatherhood.
| Weekends especially I try to forget the stresses of work and
| productivity and everything else and try to spend as much time
| with them as possible. Playing, teaching, and learning with
| them.
|
| Not saying it's universal. Just a datapoint from me.
| rybosworld wrote:
| I think this is a fairly common experience but many people are
| afraid to admit it.
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| I enjoyed much more the first 6 years than the following 6
| ones.
|
| Seeing them grow was fun, seeing them turning teenagers is a
| pain.
| iamwil wrote:
| The quip I keep going back to is: "All joy, no fun."
| hudon wrote:
| The single folk envy the married and the married envy the
| singles. Life is suffering either way.
| synergy20 wrote:
| I have a few kids, raising them is a mix of good and bad, like
| everything else. it took a toll on my career, pushed my temper
| to the edge, and stressed me out all these 20+ years, but I
| also enjoyed many moments. it does not go away when they got
| older by the way, it's a life long strong bond, at different
| phases there are different challenges.
|
| If I have a second life, I don't know what to do though, I
| probably will first make enough money before having kids at
| least.
| jasonkester wrote:
| _I probably will first make enough money before having kids
| at least._
|
| I think you've hit the key difference.
|
| I waited until I was 40 before having kids, and it just feels
| like I'm doing it on easy mode.
|
| We had time and money sorted out, and tons of free baby stuff
| donated from all our friends who had done it already.
|
| It's still lots of work, but you're at a place in life where
| you can handle it. I can't imagine trying to raise kids in my
| 20s, with my crappy stressful office job and no money in my
| little studio apartment.
|
| Hats off to anybody who can do that.
| eloisant wrote:
| On the flip side, you'll still have a 20yo university
| student to take care of at age 60, while all your friends
| will have an independent adult child earlier...
| warmonger wrote:
| I see no issues with that. I don't think that your
| friends should decide your parenting plans.
| tayo42 wrote:
| That's funny becasue if I could do it again I'd have my kids
| younger.
| raincole wrote:
| I mean, the birth rate is decreasing everywhere for a reason.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| "A" reason?
|
| Given the post you're replying to, it seems you're implying a
| specific reason, but what if it's a different one? How about
| "I love children but having kids is super expensive"?
| raincole wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_and_fertility
|
| > There is generally an inverse correlation between
| monetary income and the total fertility rate within and
| between nations.
|
| https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-
| fam...
|
| > In 2021, the birth rate in the United States was highest
| in families that had under 10,000 U.S. dollars in income
| per year
|
| And a few thousands more links.
| dominotw wrote:
| > How about "I love children but having kids is super
| expensive"?
|
| always surprises me when ppl say this when they clearly
| observe the opposite in action. whats going on here.
| doubled112 wrote:
| Every mouth to feed costs more. Baby formula seems like a
| racket. Diapers are expensive.
|
| My oldest will need a laptop for school next year. It
| isn't optional or provided.
|
| Maybe you need a bigger car because car seats take up a
| lot of room.
|
| What if your kid decides they want to join a sports team?
| A friend of a friend told me they did the math on a year
| of competitive swimming. It was $10,000 by the time they
| were done with equipment and travel.
|
| A trip to the dentist for my family of four is about
| $1000 for just cleanings. Braces for my oldest were $3000
| if I could pay cash or $4000 to finance. You could skip
| dental care, but some might consider that neglect.
|
| What if the school tells you to get your child tested?
| That costs about $3000 in my part of the world. Half of
| the kids on my block are neurodivergent somehow. What do
| you do?
|
| In a less well off part of the world, most of these
| "concerns" probably disappear. I think we have pretty
| high expectations of parents that aren't poor.
| knorker wrote:
| Your arguments (explanations?) would seem way more
| relevant if they didn't go 100% counter to observation.
|
| I don't know why you're trying to explain an outcome that
| is opposite of the observed outcome.
|
| Are you saying that while more money is correlated with
| less fertility (the fact), that somehow _even more money_
| will reverse the trend and start going the other way?
|
| Based on observed data, one could almost make the case
| that if only billionaires start stealing from the poor
| even more, then birth rates should go up.
| doubled112 wrote:
| It wasn't really supposed to be about money vs fertility
| rates. I was trying to provide some observed examples of
| why having more money might mean more expensive kids. Or
| how being poor means the cost and expectations are lower.
|
| I've always believed that it isn't money itself, but
| access to healthcare and education that lower fertility
| rates. Money correlates really strongly with access to
| healthcare and education.
|
| Having good education and healthcare leads to birth
| control and maybe an abortion if the BC fails.
|
| When a family of three is making $15K a year, do you
| believe baby four, five and six were planned out in
| agonizing detail? Or do you think maybe they weren't
| planned at all?
|
| And I do believe more money going around would help. If
| the perspective is "I can't afford it", those who are
| doing OK will not have children if they can help it.
| eloisant wrote:
| The highest income you have, the more pressured you are
| to give them an expensive education, activities, etc.
| Everyone want their kids to do at least as well as
| themselves.
|
| So it's expensive no matter what income bracket you're
| in.
| microtonal wrote:
| Yeah, I don't envy the 30 year olds who can't buy an house
| because it's become unaffordable, made even harder by many
| only getting freelance jobs.
|
| Also: having many children used to be an insurance policy,
| but as countries become more developed it's less necessary.
| phatfish wrote:
| The reason isn't because it is more difficult or people enjoy
| having kids less (like the parent). Its because children used
| to be a way to provide security for your family and
| community. More hands to help or sent off to earn money
| younger for example.
|
| Now with smaller family units and less community interaction
| they represent a risk to security, mainly financially.
| mothballed wrote:
| Children still provide security for the family and
| community, it's just that it's done in a way where the
| people creating the benefit and the people realizing it are
| almost entirely different. This is due to the way social
| security works. Creating a tragedy of the commons where
| everyone wants more kids but no one wants to be the sucker
| that has them (from the financial viewpoint, obviously not
| from others). Obviously this sort of communism where
| society takes the profits in form of social security but
| provides almost nil (except some pittances in property
| taxes for school) for the investment creates a collapsing
| system.
|
| Having children for yourself provides more security for
| _all the other_ families but barely anymore for your own.
| Meanwhile you bear _most_ the costs and everyone else bears
| very little. So the incentives are totally reversed, and
| even worse the coupling between investment in children and
| payoff is cut which means the people in the best position
| to help their kids be successful are the least incentivized
| to do so.
| FunnyLookinHat wrote:
| I think it's important to share the difficult / hard
| experiences of having kids as much as the good ones. I've
| noticed that there is a huge bias towards only sharing the good
| moments and white-washing all of the bad as something you can
| "laugh about later." To be frank, not enough people were honest
| with me about what it would be like having kids before I had
| them - and I was incredibly upset when I realized that (several
| years into being a parent).
|
| I now make it a point to be honest with people when they ask
| "Should we have kids?" and tell them about how hard it can be,
| etc. Most importantly, I tell people that they shouldn't have
| kids unless they would still want to do it if their experience
| doesn't land in the middle of the bell curve. We tend to
| romanticize the decision, and expect that everything "just gets
| even better" with kids. There are all sorts of ways your
| experience can be less than ideal. Unless you're evaluating
| your decision with those potential outcomes in mind, you're
| doing yourself, your partner, and even your future children a
| disservice.
| microtonal wrote:
| Interesting, my experience has been the opposite. Before
| getting kids, I thought that I would only enjoy having kids
| once they were the age where you could have conversations with
| them, etc., that the first one or two years were more something
| that mothers would like. But for me it was not like that at
| all, aside from some sleepless nights, it's so cool to be part
| of them discovering the world.
|
| _have so far been very much a drag on my life and
| productivity, and not much else_
|
| At some point when our kid was still young, I started working
| 4/5 FTE, taking the afternoons off after ~14:00. I feel like
| that provided a lot of mental space. Since I was working part-
| time, I did not feel bad/guilty about not working the
| afternoons and I would be focused on being very productive from
| 8:30 to 14:00. The free hours were for doing stuff together or
| accommodating their playdates (picking up from school, ensuring
| the house doesn't get torn down).
|
| Now they are an age where they want to do things without
| parents, so I am working full-time again, but do miss those
| early days where she would be with me in her seat on my bike
| and we'd cycle to the city and she'd be singing aloud from joy.
|
| But every person is different and I think that there are also
| parents that start enjoying having kids more when they are
| older. So, your years may still come :).
|
| _dark comment_
|
| My dark comment would be: we are all learning on the job and I
| feel like I could do some things better with the experience I
| have now.
| gib444 wrote:
| I admire your frank honesty
|
| > Generally, I regret having kids
|
| Please don't ever, ever let them know this, or even allow them
| to figure it out. Especially before they're at least ~30 and
| able to begin to understand.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I would never let them think I regret them - that's such a
| cruel thing to inflict upon them, and it's certainly not
| their fault. I also don't regret the joy it's brought my
| wife.
|
| I regret the loss of my mental energy and personal time, but
| not them, if that makes sense.
| gib444 wrote:
| > that's such a cruel thing to inflict upon them
|
| It certainly is. Speaking from personal experience. And he
| let me know in a very direct and cruel way.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.
|
| I make sure my kids know I love them in many, many ways.
| karmakurtisaani wrote:
| For me it helped to realize that the things I would have
| done with the extra time and energy would not have been
| that great. Some occasional dopamine bursts for a very
| mediocre outcome. Having kids is a better investment, but a
| less fun one.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Having kids becomes a lot easier if you can do the things you
| enjoy with them. For me that includes all sorts of stuff such
| as D&D, warhammer, painting miniatures, drawing, magic the
| gathering, board games, etc. I also include them when I have to
| fix something around the house or some random electronic device
| that broke.
|
| If the only thing you can enjoy is adult stuff or working then
| you might have a rougher time at it if you don't find joy in
| the pure act of raising a kid. For me the first few months were
| meh, but once they started to get a personality I found it more
| entertaining.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| Many of those are things I greatly enjoy, as well as many
| other things from a very diverse range of hobbies. My kids
| aren't old enough to join in on those things yet (6 and 4),
| so I only find time to do those things once every few months,
| as opposed to once or twice a week pre-kids. It's improving
| as they get older though, hence my hopefulness.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Your experience is the opposite of mine.
|
| I can't wait to play with my 3 year old and 1 year old. I get
| so mad at work when I have an odd late meeting because it is
| keeping me from them.
|
| My three year old helps me build furniture (he gets screws
| started, counts out parts, helps apply glue). I love showing
| him synths and instruments and seeing his face light up.
|
| My one year old is a cuddle monster who likes listening to jazz
| with me. She also really enjoys when the cat climbs up on our
| lap and she gets to pet it.
|
| I don't know your situation, but most miserable parents I know
| see their kid as something to manage, like some kind of
| annoying work underling.
|
| I see my kids as little detectives.
|
| My goal isn't to solve their case or even help them approach it
| in the right way. It's to give them an occasional hint (or step
| stool), keep them from danger, and help them discover the
| correct way to behave.
| lukevp wrote:
| Thank you for posting this. It's totally understandable and
| believable that you simultaneously love them and regret some
| things about it. There's this insane pressure in our society to
| never acknowledge the toll that kids have and to never speak
| out about this. I remember when this article was first posted
| and how I received it, like I was wrong for not being sure
| about kids, and that some change would come over me when I had
| them. Truth is, that doesn't happen with everyone. Then the
| world tries to gaslight those people who don't feel that way
| into feeling like they're broken somehow.
|
| I'm sure you love your kids and take great care of them, and
| it's not your fault that you feel this way.
|
| It would benefit all of us if this taboo was lifted, so that we
| could speak truthfully about the impact of kids on families,
| and maybe then we'd have to provide more support and
| encouragement to convince people to have them. Not everyone has
| free daycare from their grandparents or a large social network
| to babysit or the finances that make having a child less of a
| burden.
| peacebeard wrote:
| Everyone is different, and even though I don't share your
| experience, I don't view yours as either good or bad, it just
| is what it is. My experience is different but I'm not planning
| on ever telling anyone "Oh don't worry about it just have kids
| it'll be the best experience of your life" in blind faith.
| nxor2 wrote:
| It's mysterious to me that you write all this _and_ that you do
| truly love your kids and are great. If I was in your position
| I'd at least concede that people do deserve parents that don't
| regret them. Do their thoughts toward it even matter?
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I think people deserve parents that give a damn. And I do
| give a damn. Several in fact. It just doesn't make me happy.
| cortesoft wrote:
| While I have always loved being a dad, I can certainly relate
| to the things you describe.
|
| I will say that a lot of those issues have gotten better as
| they have gotten older (they are now 10 and almost 7). They
| don't require the same level of constant attention that they
| used to, they are getting more and more interesting to talk to,
| and have developed interesting personalities and senses of
| humor.
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I'm glad to hear that - it backs up what I'm hoping/expecting
| will happen. I think I'll enjoy time with them much more as
| they age, especially once they're 7+.
| eloisant wrote:
| The curse of parenting is that when they're small you can't
| wait for them to grow up so you can get more time for you, and
| when they grow up you're nostalgic of their childhood when they
| were willing to spend more time with you.
|
| So my advice is: find activities to do with them that you would
| both enjoy. Maybe going to parks, museums, have them help you
| on house chores... You only have a few years left under they
| get to middle school and start becoming more distant.
| artyom wrote:
| You're not alone and I'll even say this is evolutionary.
|
| Men haven't evolved to be overly attached to babies or small
| kids like mothers did - that'd have been a weakness in the
| survival race. Men skills were completely different, usually
| related to being _away_ from the kids most of the time.
|
| Translate to modern day, that is men not really wanting to have
| kids (sometimes just going along with the wife's biological
| clock), and pretty much "feeling nothing" when the kids are
| born. There's a million documented examples of that.
|
| However, once kids leave the "little puppy" phase and grow
| beyond the basic needs care that mothers provide, it's when the
| fathers start to really relate to them.
|
| If your older kid is maybe 5-6 you're about to start that new
| phase. That's what happened to me, and I find (maybe not so
| extreme) examples of that on almost every guy I talk to.
|
| Give it a second chance, maybe having kids is just not for you.
| But don't assume it's already the case, you may miss out whole
| new world.
| orochimaaru wrote:
| Kids need to be out of the house and so do you. From the 2 kids
| I have (currently teen/tween) outdoors - as in unpaved trails,
| state parks or such if you have them close by - were the best.
|
| They find enough there to keep themselves entertained. It's
| amazing how much interest deer poop can generate.
| drfloyd51 wrote:
| Before kids it was easy to judge bad parents. Then one day with
| child I found myself due to circumstances in a store way past my
| child's bedtime. She was screaming and crying, because it was way
| past her bedtime.
|
| Then I realized... I was now "the bad parent" I had so easily
| judged.
|
| Then it was easy to judge parents with children younger than
| mine.
|
| Until I learned that not all children have the same issues in the
| same order.
|
| Then I learned it's easier not to judge at all.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Louis C.K had a routine about this
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr1aAYOhFsQ
| drfloyd51 wrote:
| I can relate. Thank you.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Yes, when you have a toddler undergoing a public meltdown, it
| is easy to see who around you is an experienced parent, and who
| is not. Just by the look on their faces.
|
| > Then I learned it's easier not to judge at all.
|
| A skill we should all cultivate, IMO. Life is happier when you
| do not waste it constantly judging.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I smile a bit and give a chuckle when a toddler is giving a
| parent a hard time. It reminds me of simpler times. The
| problems and consequences are so much smaller than teenage
| problems.
| phatfish wrote:
| Badly behaved kids I am more understanding of now (at least the
| younger ones). But there are defintely easy ways out of
| problems some parents take that are not good for children.
| com2kid wrote:
| Yeah, with a kid I still judge. I'd rather see kids running
| around and playing and being kids in public than on a tablet.
| Even grocery shopping I see toddlers on tablets sitting in
| the cart.
|
| My son has been actively involved with meal planning since he
| as a a year and a half old. "What type of bread today? What
| type of fruit in your yogurt tomorrow?"
|
| I won't judge kid's behavior, so long as they are acting like
| kids. Sometimes that means they act out, that is normal.
|
| But, damnit, let them live in the real world and not just try
| to distract them with shiny things all the time.
|
| I remember going to restaurants in the 90s and early 2000s
| and kids would be running around playing with each other
| between tables. That is kids being kids, and it is perfectly
| acceptable (heck desirable!)
| mothballed wrote:
| I've been detained by police under suspicion of
| "kidnapping" for taking my kid to the park (my kid is a
| different "race" as me so it was "suspicious"). On another
| occasion my kid was interrogated because they were walking
| home from school on our own property, and someone wondered
| "why they were alone."
|
| On the other hand, no one has ever called the police on me
| for handing the kid a tablet and melting their brain
| inside.
|
| When I was a kid either of those people would be
| practically thrown in a loony bin for saying anything, let
| alone taken serious by the authorities. Now the CPS
| investigates almost every accusation and is legally barred
| from even telling you who made it, so these anonymous
| shitstains can exercise their cowardice behind a curtain as
| much as they like with no risk to themselves but every risk
| to you.
|
| It's difficult to let them live in the real world not
| because some evil guy with a white van is waiting to offer
| "free candy" but that the evil person in a white van is
| actually the Karen who sees a kid on the street or the park
| as an inconvenience for her or an unacceptable risk and
| they can be the coward they are and make an anonymous
| complaint and cause weeks of harassments by CPS with the
| cell phone they have next to them at the ready wherever
| they might see a child.
| com2kid wrote:
| > I've been detained by police under suspicion of
| "kidnapping" for taking my kid to the park (my kid is a
| different "race" as me so it was "suspicious"). On
| another occasion my kid was interrogated because they
| were walking home from school on our own property, and
| someone wondered "why they were alone."
|
| And this is why I pay an arm and a leg to live in
| Seattle.
|
| Kids here are running around outside playing soccer in
| the streets with parents watching guard for cars at the
| ends of the block.
|
| Mixed race is not even noteworthy here.
|
| Kids walk to/from school (up to a mile) all the time.
| Huge groups of kids walk together every day.
| mothballed wrote:
| Yes the park thing happened to me while visiting a white
| suburb of a very racially segregated city.
| cknoxrun wrote:
| The only thing I'll add is that you never know what people
| are going through. Both of my children have pretty intense
| ADHD, and when I went through my divorce I definitely
| leaned into too much screen time for a while. It wasn't
| permanent though, and I managed to get back closer to the
| ideal you speak of (but as a single parent, it took a lot
| of processing of guilt to find a balance that worked).
|
| I've decided it's safer to just never judge, that parent
| you see pushing the toddler around in the cart might indeed
| be a terrible parent, or they might be going through grief
| and at their breaking point.
| com2kid wrote:
| > I've decided it's safer to just never judge, that
| parent you see pushing the toddler around in the cart
| might indeed be a terrible parent, or they might be going
| through grief and at their breaking point.
|
| Agreed, I should have clarified that I'm speaking more
| about friends and family, people's whose situation can be
| spoken to directly.
|
| I have friends with neurotypical kids who still hand the
| kids tablets at restaurants instead of actually teaching
| the kid how to take turns in a conversation, or how to
| actually go through a menu and order!
|
| Like I get it, it is tiring, but we all signed for the
| work when we chose to have kids. (At least in my social
| circle where kids are very well planned for in advance).
| Balgair wrote:
| Before kids, you take a look around a diner or a store or a
| playground and you see little ones happily eating some chips or
| browsing the foodstuffs or playing on a slide.
|
| You think that this is what kids are like. They sit there, they
| walk a little, they giggle on the playground, they look cute as
| all get out, etc.
|
| Then you have kids and you know.
|
| You _know_.
|
| Those kids sitting there in the booth sipping on their milk
| quietly while mom and dad happily eat their lunch? Those are
| the top 5% most calm kids out there. The other 95% of kids are
| with their adults screaming and throwing fits and covered in
| who knows what.
|
| Life _lied_ to you. It did it directly to your face, unashamed.
| The bias is _real_.
| pimlottc wrote:
| That's not the impression I hear from my many intentionally
| childless friends. They take the negative behavior - the
| screaming, tantrums, chaos - as the norm.
|
| It sounds like you always wanted kids. I don't say this to
| criticize - it's great that those who want to start families
| do so - but I don't think your experience is universal.
| Balgair wrote:
| Oh then it's _even worse_! As again, only the more well
| behaved kids are going out in public.
| Gud wrote:
| Uhm, who walks around believing kids are well behaved?
| drfloyd51 wrote:
| lol. Kids are animals. Parents have to teach them manners
| and behaviors
| brightball wrote:
| I was the worlds best parent...before I had kids.
| DonThomasitos wrote:
| Thanks for making me laugh - great poetry :D and so true. I
| can't stand people w/o kids complaining about their parents.
| socalgal2 wrote:
| I still judge parents, because I compare them to other parents.
|
| Good parents = kids not 100% glued to phones/tablets, social
| around friends and family, not throwing tantrums at 8-16 yrs
| old.
|
| Bad parents = kids always throwing tantrums, kids basically
| always getting their way because they've learned parents will
| always give in, parents and kids 100% ignoring each other.
|
| One set of friends - I go to visit, I play with their kids - we
| go out to dinner, we interact with both adults and kids
|
| Another set of friends - I go to visit, they sent their kids to
| their room - we go out to dinner, they give the kids tablets
| and they're entirely ignored for the whole time.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| > Bad parents = kids always throwing tantrums
|
| But sometimes there are legit behavioral issues that are
| extremely challenging, and are not the parent's fault.
| Sometimes what looks like a "tantrum" on the outside can
| actually be autistic overwhelm and meltdown, which can happen
| with even the best parents. Not to mention stuff like
| Intermittent Explosive Disorder.
|
| All this to say...if you see a kid in public throwing a
| "tantrum", you still shouldn't judge the parents without
| knowing the full picture.
| com2kid wrote:
| There is a difference between kids using bad behavior to
| get attention or blackmail parents vs kids who have actual
| behavioral problems they are working through.
|
| The first is an actual problem stemming from bad parenting
| and as a society we should indeed shame parents who raise
| spoiled kids who expect everything to be given to them.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| The point is that if you just see a kid on the street
| throwing a tantrum, you don't know which of those
| situations you're actually looking at
| com2kid wrote:
| OP was referring to observations at friend's houses.
| Presumably they'd be aware of any underlying issues.
|
| Judging random people on the street isn't wise. Judge
| your friends and loved ones instead! :D
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I mean, do you even know the full story at a friend's
| house? I guess it depends on how closely you know them,
| and whether they've confided any developmental issues
| they're children are dealing with.
| msteffen wrote:
| I mean, not judging other parents doesn't come from thinking
| that all other parents are doing a great job, it comes from
| knowing that you're doing a terrible job in your own, special
| ways.
|
| Parenting children is impossible, therefore all parenting
| lies on a spectrum from terrible to catastrophic, and it's
| hard to know how you did until they grow up (if ever) because
| there's a lot of sensitivity and subtle emotional stuff,
| especially at very young ages, which are the most important
| and the ones you remember the least. I'm certain there are
| screen-free parents who are worse for their kids than a good
| chunk of tablet-hander-outers
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| It's difficult to translate what you're saying. You say "go
| to visit" which implies you don't see your friends with kids
| very often. If true you're in a poor position to make these
| judgements even by your own standards.
|
| Everything you're observing is even more likely to occur if
| you don't see them that often. Your friends probably want to
| spend more time focusing on you. The kids are not that
| familiar with you and are less likely to engage with you.
| Which also makes the parents more likely to want to distract
| them with something else.
|
| Whether or not you're bringing children with you matters too.
| It sounds like you don't because you're focusing on child-
| adult interactions. If someone has kids the kids run around
| and be kids with their loudness, and child-adult interactions
| are going to be much more likely. If you're not bringing kids
| in tow my kids are much more likely to just go off and do
| their own thing.
|
| Much of what you're pointing out can also be down to
| individual child temperment. Which changes as children age.
| By your standards many parents turn into a bad parent once
| their kids become a teenager.
|
| That is not to say that your observations are 100% wrong. But
| just that there's so many variables, most of which I didn't
| even mention here, makes trying to analyze your statement
| make my head spin.
|
| Not to lean too much on anecdotes, but I have a friend who
| has extremely well behaved kids. He has said a couple times
| that he feels like he has placed too many adult
| responsibilities on his kids. Is he a good parent? Based upon
| outside observation, he seems good. But he seems to be
| questioning some of his own choices. Maybe that alone makes
| him a good parent? I don't know, who am I to judge?
| drfloyd51 wrote:
| Trust me. Don't judge.
|
| Even if you compare to other parents, you are judging the
| reference-parents.
|
| If you have data over time you can draw conclusions on things
| you want to try as a parent.
| pstuart wrote:
| Agreed. It's not nature vs nurture, it's nature (with
| nurture sanding off some rough edges).
| chocolateteeth wrote:
| What about judging judgers?
| pipes wrote:
| All kids are different, my second has about 20 tantrums a
| day. I've no idea why. It's getting really hard to deal with.
| But it will pass.
|
| Honestly the only certainty is that unless you have been 100
| percent responsible for a very young child for more a few
| days, you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't
| mean that directed at you. Just my own generalisation based
| own experience and the opinion of every other parent I know.
|
| Life as a parent is completely different than life before.
|
| I saw a woman completely lose her shit in a museum with her
| kid. Before I became a parent I would have judged. But when
| it happened I just thought "poor woman, I know how it feels,
| just giving it her all and she's got nothing left to give
| right now, how many times have I felt like that, how many
| times have I failed to live up to my own ideals as a parent".
| InexSquirrel wrote:
| Definitely hard to say. I get being angry and frustrated,
| and circumstances surrounding being a parent might not help
| at all. For instance my wife and I have no family to help
| out. It's just us. It's hard, but we do what we can.
|
| I'm beyond fortunate that she's fully into being a mother,
| calm, patient but knows where the boundaries are. And
| that's reflected into our kid. He's so incredibly easy to
| parent, it's insane.
|
| I look at his friends - all good kids. Boisterous,
| outgoing, a bit wild and uncontrollable, but fundamentally
| good kids. They fight with their siblings, and they're
| learning how to navigate the world.
|
| And then I go shopping. We live in lower socio-econimic
| area, and it's genuinely just saddening to see what goes
| on. The number of parents that are actively, in public,
| swearing out their kids and just having the kids stand
| there quietly shrinking away is heartbreaking.
|
| I don't know what's going on in the parent's lives, and I
| know being a parent is immensely difficut, and none of us
| are equipped from the outset to really become one... but
| yelling at your kid for being a f*ck in the middle of a
| shopping center? I fail to see how any of that is OK
| because of 'circumstances'. At some point you have to grow
| up and be an adult. You put this kid here. You need to take
| responsibility. It doesn't mean it's easy, but if you can't
| self reflect enough to know that's not OK, then you're a
| big part of the reason the kid is how they are.
| pipes wrote:
| Yeah... I was thinking about what I wrote above, I came
| to the conclusion that actually there is a limit. Because
| some people are awful parents, and that is reflected in
| how damaged some people are. I guess I could see the
| woman in the museum was trying, and had just had enough.
| But hey she was in a museum with her kids trying to do
| something positive with them.
| surgical_fire wrote:
| Sometimes it's entirely on the kids.
|
| My parents always tried to make me socialize, tried to unglue
| me from videogame/PC when I was a teenager, etc
|
| Turns out I was always an introverted prick.
| sublinear wrote:
| I'm glad you at least determined the root cause.
|
| Plenty of truly bad parents shrug responsibility off by making
| the "technically correct" claim that all kids throw tantrums,
| therefore they're not a bad parent. They then proceed to
| provide an unstable environment to raise their kids and the
| tantrums don't end until well into adulthood.
| dismalaf wrote:
| Dunno, I didn't judge before having a kid. After having a kid,
| it's 100x easier than people made it out to be and it's hard
| not to judge.
| redwood wrote:
| Maybe your kid is easier than most.. I would not generalize
| doright wrote:
| I will continue to judge my parents for abusing me throughout
| childhood until doing so no longer contributes to my own
| healing. There is no single right way to respond to a
| hyperactive child but there are plenty of permanently life-
| altering ones.
| alexchantavy wrote:
| My favorite part is how pg says how kids made him less ambitious,
| but then:
|
| "On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if it
| won't survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?"
| camillomiller wrote:
| It's called having kid while rich so you can hire nannies, tho
| alphawhisky wrote:
| This. Don't forget that HN is extremely biased towards High
| income/net worth viewpoints. The reality for a lot of parents
| is much worse than most commenters here
| genthree wrote:
| 100%. I had to drop about half my interests and hobbies after
| having kids, to remain sane (trying to continue juggling all
| of them was plainly just going to lead to never doing
| anything, really), and adjust all the others to fit better
| with kid-having.
|
| If you can't hire "help", it's like losing 20 waking hours
| from your week, at least, just for the not-at-all fun or
| "quality time" parts of having a kid (extra housekeeping
| [so... very much more], extra shopping, taxiing the kids
| places, extra household planning, basic hygiene stuff, et c).
| And on top of that you need to spend "fun" time with them,
| too, like that part may be more enjoyable but it's non-
| optional and a lot of stuff an adult might want to do or
| accomplish doesn't integrate well with it.
|
| Slice ~30-40 hours off the waking hours of _both_ adults in
| the household, on top of 45-50 hours of work and other stuff
| necessary for work (commute, et c.) and... yeah this is just
| bullshit if you can 't hire help.
|
| [EDIT] Oh, this reminds me of a certain genre of LinkedIn
| post that I especially hate: the CEO bragging about how they
| find time for family despite having five jobs. The real
| answer to this mystery is that zero of those jobs are
| actually full-time work, _and_ , the part they never mention,
| is that they pay others to do tens of hours of work per week
| that normal people have to do themselves, like lawn care,
| housekeeping, fixing broken shit in their house, shopping,
| keeping track of and making appointments and such, et c.
| jasonkester wrote:
| Before having kids, I expected it to be this huge life changing
| thing. That it would effectively end the part of my life where I
| was free to do whatever I wanted, and start the part where I was
| just Daddy, doing nothing except serving my childrens' needs.
|
| But that didn't happen. We just carried on being Jason and his
| partner, but with a baby in tow.
|
| I had spent most of my 30s cramming in as much "living" as
| possible, to make sure I'd stocked away a lifetime supply of it.
| After all, I'd probably never get another chance to travel for
| long periods, keep up with climbing, and all that other stuff
| that Independent Jason could do.
|
| But it was all for naught. We just packed the kid along and went
| traveling anyway. He had eleven stamps in his passport by his
| first birthday.
|
| Life is just as much fun as ever. But now we have some kids to
| play with.
| tayo42 wrote:
| Travel with a baby isn't that bad.
|
| I think people struggle with losing their identity when they no
| longer get long periods of focus time or can participate in
| their hobbies with the dedication they would like.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Depends on the baby. Some are nightmarish.
|
| That's the main thing - each family and each child are
| different, so it's kind of hard to base your decision on what
| you see and hear from others.
| tayo42 wrote:
| Sure, the default for travel shouldn't be it'll be a
| nightmare though or impossible.
| svachalek wrote:
| Yeah mine was colicky and every time getting him to sleep
| involved rocking him for an hour+ while he screamed in my
| ear. And he woke up so easily. So I spent about 2 hours a
| day rocking and patting for the first year or so, not
| checking off a dozen countries on my passport.
|
| Never had a second for some reason.
| pfannkuchen wrote:
| I'm curious what made you conclude that he was colicky as
| opposed to something else?
|
| I was labeled colicky as a baby and my own children
| turned out to have some digestive issues with certain
| common foods that make them cry a ton when they or their
| mother eat them (and they get it via the milk). If I
| hadn't debugged the food issues I might have labeled them
| "colicky", but when we avoid those foods religiously they
| only cry when it makes sense and when the issue is solved
| they stop. I'm guessing I had a similar issue as a baby,
| my parents definitely didn't attempt to debug it.
|
| No judgement by the way I'm just curious if you tried
| debugging things like that as I imagine "colicky" could
| encompass issues that aren't possible to debug also, and
| it's also understandable if you couldn't put in the
| resources to debug it as in my case it's been a gigantic
| and expensive pain in the ass.
| mothballed wrote:
| Well when you go to every specialist and try every type
| of milk and every diet change imaginable it gets there
| through a diagnosis of exclusion.
|
| Trust me, the debugging is a big part of the trouble.
| Everyone is telling you to debug, but that is actually
| the thing you have to learn to stop doing. Your brain is
| telling you to debug. But it can't be debugged. I watched
| multiple women have mental breakdowns trying to debug a
| baby with a 6 month streak of colic. Eventually their
| brain just goes psychotic because a baby screaming 6+
| months non-stop with nothing wrong while people
| frantically try to solve the problem is basically sever
| mental torture. It is not the hours, or days, or even
| weeks of screaming that get to you, it is the months of
| never ending ear-pearcing torture that nothing will fix,
| and they will not fucking sleep because they just want to
| scream for all of their sleep as well and naturally the
| caregivers won't be sleeping either due to this. And you
| cannot rely on crying to figure out when to feed, when to
| change a diaper, when the baby needs sleep, or some
| gentle motion -- all of your indicators are worthless.
|
| It is a hell for the baby and it is a hell for the
| parent. People struggling with this generally do not have
| any more children. Any other stage past baby for such
| child is 99% easier, I laugh when people say babies are
| the easiest stage.
| bregma wrote:
| Our first was colicky for the first 18 months or so. A
| nightmare, really, just like you described. Back arched,
| face red, for hours every day, no comforting.
|
| We went on to have more kids. They were all quiet and
| easy. We sometimes wondered if there was something wrong
| with them.
| genthree wrote:
| IME babies are the very easiest for almost everything.
|
| It's way more work to travel with a 10-year-old than a
| 1-year-old. Then quadruple that difficulty for each
| additional kid of roughly that age...
| InexSquirrel wrote:
| It can be. And it also places strain on the people around you
| too if the kid isn't settled and easy to travel with.
|
| Not the kids fault, but last time I travelled, there was a
| couple travelling with a child that was crying, hysterically
| the entire trip. This was a 20 hour trip all up, from NZ to
| SA, crossing NZ to AU then to SA, and they were with us all
| the way. The kid was going for the entire thing - I watched
| the parents take turns to look after her, standing near the
| toilets. I feel sorry for them having to deal with that, and
| for the girl being that upset (presumably sore ears? dunno),
| but that would not have been fun for the people around them
| either.
|
| I was always super wary of travelling with ours in case that
| happened. We were lucky that they just slept through all the
| flights, but it could have easily gone the other way. I would
| have felt pretty stink subjecting the surrounding 40+ people
| to a very upset child.
| vermon wrote:
| I'm 6 months in and it has definitely ended my life as it was
| and nothing is the same. I'm pretty lucky that my wife gives me
| almost 16 hours of free time daily, from which 8 I work and 8
| is for sleep. If I want to work out or do something else I need
| to steal it from the sleep time. It's pretty early though so I
| might be looking back in a few years and think that it was not
| that bad actually :)
| gkdr wrote:
| A lot of gyms will watch your kids while you work out. Great
| opportunity to give both of you a break.
| drivebyhooting wrote:
| Very questionable quality child care.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> He had eleven stamps in his passport by his first birthday._
|
| I was raised overseas (Dad[0] in the CIA).
|
| Both good and bad. First, if it's just "traveling," and not
| "living" overseas, I suspect that it's not so bad, but military
| brats have common quirks, for a reason. Our lives get torn up
| and replanted regularly. It's hard to make friends, and we
| often end up having a difficult time, retaining long-term
| relationships, later in life.
|
| But, man, the life story that it gives you. There's few cures
| for xenophobia, better than immersion.
|
| [0] https://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm
| nDRDY wrote:
| You have just the one kid, right?
|
| We were the same ;-)
| jasonkester wrote:
| Two now. That's still manageable.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Good on you. We were 'one and done'. Two sounds more than
| 100% more difficult, if only just because the number of
| edges in the relationship graph going up.
|
| My parents managed four kids, albeit for most of that time
| there were only 3 living in the home at a time (13 years
| between the oldest and youngest).
|
| A friend of mine had eleven (!!!) siblings. That horrifies
| me. Cliques could form in that size population! Utter
| craziness.
| roarcher wrote:
| > We just packed the kid along and went traveling anyway. He
| had eleven stamps in his passport by his first birthday.
|
| How do you keep a baby happy and quiet on long international
| flights? I currently have no kids but I may find myself in this
| situation in the next couple years. I'm dreading being the guy
| with a screaming infant on a 13-hour trans-Pacific flight that
| keeps everyone from sleeping.
| dzink wrote:
| First two years they can fly for free, but they have to ride
| in an adult's lap and that gets tiring. Don't believe the
| bassinet offerings - as soon as a plane gets turbulence, you
| have to get the sleeping baby out of the wall bassinet and
| good luck appeasing them. Age 1-2 is hardest for travel, so
| you can skip it. The only thing that worked was getting their
| own seat with the cosco scenera next car seat (or their own
| if they like it, but that one is $50 and light to carry).
| They would sleep nicely for large chunks and you get to enjoy
| travel again. After age 3 it's much easier (they can ipad if
| that's the only ipad time they ever get).
| HoldOnAMinute wrote:
| Don't go straight to screens in this situation. You can
| introduce novelty by purchasing a number of cheap toys,
| even from the dollar store, which they have never seen
| before. Keep them hidden until the flight.
| hamdingers wrote:
| Babies want nothing more than to sit on your lap snoozing and
| feeding. It's more or less what you do at home anyway. The
| hardest part about flying with a baby is dealing with the
| added luggage (stroller, carseat, overpacked diaper bag,
| etc).
|
| It's only once they're old enough to have more sophisticated
| feelings (like boredom) but not old enough to communicate
| them (except by screaming) you get in trouble.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| > Before having kids, I expected it to be this huge life
| changing thing. That it would effectively end the part of my
| life where I was free to do whatever I wanted, and start the
| part where I was just Daddy, doing nothing except serving my
| childrens' needs.
|
| Had a very similar feeling. When my wife told me the "getting
| pregnant" worked I mourned a little bit. I recognize we were
| exceedingly lucky to have had such a wonderful kid, and it has
| worked out very well.
|
| For the first 6 mos. a lot did change, but after that things
| seemed to skew back to a new "normal".
|
| It will be 13 years in May since we had our daughter. I'm so
| glad we did it.
|
| I know that it could have gone a lot differently, though. I'd
| never suggest that it'll be great for everybody.
| jbrun wrote:
| Absolutely. Also, kids end up helping you focus on the travel,
| experiences and things that are truly worthwhile. You drop a
| lot of activities and TV and other activities that was frankly
| a waste of time anyways.
| com2kid wrote:
| > Before having kids, I expected it to be this huge life
| changing thing. That it would effectively end the part of my
| life where I was free to do whatever I wanted, and start the
| part where I was just Daddy, doing nothing except serving my
| childrens' needs.
|
| There are some huge changes.
|
| The largest is a lack of the mental downtime where deep thought
| and problem solving could occur.
|
| I can't get off work, hop on my car, and drive around for an
| hour mulling over technical work. I can't stay an hour past
| with coworkers and noodle solutions on a white board. I can't
| get up at 2 am to try something out that just popped into my
| head.
|
| I need to be in bed by 10pm every day. I have to get up at 7am
| every day. On weekdays 2 meals a day need to be planned, on
| weekends 3 meals a day. I can't try experimenting with some
| random new recipe that may fail, my kid needs to eat lunch on
| time not 2 hours late.
|
| Yes it is a lot of fun (theme parks! Trick or treating!), but
| I'm thankful I did a ton of amazing engineering work before I
| had a kid because there is no way I can dedicate the absurd
| amount of time to innovating/solving hard problems, that I used
| to.
| madduci wrote:
| It happened to me and now, after more than 8 years, I find
| myself still in the situation where I am serving my children's
| needs and not having time to satisfy my personal ones.
|
| They go to bed when I am also tired. Trying to having an hobby
| past their bed time means sacrifying sleep time.
|
| Travelling is also a challenge, since they lack interesting in
| seeing something new, but just want to have fun playing,
| especially playgrounds.
| sershe wrote:
| That doesn't appear to be a common story. I now have to
| schedule phone calls with my retired mother because between my
| sister and her partner who both work, and her, with 2 kids -
| one small but active that needs constant minding and one that
| needs chaperoning to activities - she often doesn't have one
| uninterrupted hour in the evening for an entire week.
|
| Nearly everyone I know with kids is more similar to this story
| than yours.. to each their own but it's certainly not for me:)
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I think it depends on the baby and the parents' personality,
| but kudos to you.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Taking drugs is great too. But I know not everyone will do it.
| You won't get to experience everything so just be glad about the
| things you do get to.
|
| I'm so glad I've avoided kids.
| throwaway132448 wrote:
| > And while having kids may be warping my present judgement, it
| hasn't overwritten my memory. I remember perfectly well what life
| was like before.
|
| It's funny that he actually believes this.
| grahamburger wrote:
| The great thing about kids is that just when you start to miss
| their toddler temper tantrums, they start having teenage temper
| tantrums!
| corry wrote:
| This is one of my favourites from PG, not least because it's a
| bit antithetical to what I perceive as a growing trend among
| smart, ambitious people (for whom children might represent
| friction, inconvenience, etc)... as well as folks for whom COL is
| making the question irrelevant due to practical concerns.
|
| Actually, it's really striking that even in America -- the
| developed country with the #1 highest birthrate -- still falls
| below the replacement rate. What is it that's inversely
| correlated between growing wealth and having children? Especially
| since it was likely to opposite for most of human history? (i.e.
| large families were a sign of wealth and power).
|
| PS - I can't resist offering my own experience as a parent - what
| a treasure to have discovered that I'm capable of such love, and
| to get to watch this love transform me into a better person than
| who I was before. This kind of love demands everything of you,
| but through it you discover a truer and stronger version of
| yourself too.
| r14c wrote:
| Due to the extremely competitive nature of the US economy, a
| lot of people have to choose between career success (having
| money) and starting a family (which is expensive). I know a lot
| of women who want to have a family, but have struggled to get
| to a comfortable economic position where they can actually do
| it. Compounded by the wage stagnation, which makes it hard for
| most people to support a family on a single income. We have
| hollowed out our third spaces, so its difficult for people to
| relax and socialize. Even vibing ends up being a kind of
| competition because of the high costs. Not to mention the
| perverse incentives in the housing market.
|
| None of this is conducive to starting a family.
| genthree wrote:
| I think the two-income household (two full-time paying jobs,
| specifically) is a lot of it, and seems to go along with
| "rich" countries.
|
| Having all the stuff that _could_ happen during the day if it
| were (if you will) someone 's full-time job, instead get
| crammed into evenings and weekends when you're trying to also
| do non-chore stuff with your kids (or, for god's sake, maybe
| get just one measly hour to do something you want to do,
| alone... or spend time with your spouse, without kids...) and
| take care of things that _have to_ happen each evening
| (dinner, bed time stuff) really, really sucks.
|
| _Not_ having chores piling up through the week to ambush you
| both on the weekend would be amazing. I can hardly even
| imagine how much more free we 'd feel. With two working
| parents it's like neither ever gets any actual time off that
| they're not carving out by neglecting _something_ they really
| ought to be doing (usually several somethings)
| qsera wrote:
| When someone asks me if starting a family is worth it, I borrow
| words from Agent K and tell them, "Yes, if you are strong
| enough"...
|
| But as you say, I suppose everyone ends up becoming strong.
| Because there is no other way...
| pixl97 wrote:
| Oh, if you read some of the headlines in the news... no, not
| everyone.
| foxglacier wrote:
| Kids cost time, not money. So the wealthier you are, the more
| difficult it is because you probably have less free time. You
| can pay someone else to raise your kids (daycare/etc.) but then
| you lose a lot of the value of having kids.
|
| This bullshit excuse that somebody can't afford to have kids is
| proven wrong by the fact that poorer people have more kids than
| rich people. You can even be unemployed. Gone are the days of
| destitute single mothers having to give up their child to the
| church and work in the poorhouse. We have social welfare for
| that.
|
| Maybe the fact that poor people can have lots of kids has taken
| away their value as a status symbol for wealth?
| hamdingers wrote:
| > Kids cost time, not money.
|
| There's a well known aphorism about this...
| pixl97 wrote:
| Um, wtf is this rambling statement that doesn't seem to be
| based in any kind of truth at all?
|
| In the past both poor and rich tended to have tons of kids,
| this is because kids tended to die young regardless of being
| rich or poor.
|
| Then you're trying to compare massive social changes in the
| west that occurred around the same time. For example womens
| suffrage, women being allowed to work, sexual revolutions and
| birth control.
|
| If you look at countries that tended to develop later, the
| rate of childbirth tends to drop with accessibility to birth
| control and education.
| jmye wrote:
| > Actually, it's really striking that even in America -- the
| developed country with the #1 highest birthrate -- still falls
| below the replacement rate. What is it that's inversely
| correlated between growing wealth and having children?
|
| I think a lot of people miss the simple fact that some people
| _just don 't want kids_ and are unable to reconcile their
| personal experience with anyone else's.
|
| My partner and I are both wealthy enough that we could both
| afford children and we can afford to not have children. But
| neither of us think our lives would be improved by having them.
|
| I think that's really, really hard to understand for a lot of
| parents and people who want to be parents: being (relatively)
| wealthy creates choice, and that a growing number of people are
| _choosing different things_ now that they have the ability to
| do so.
| TheOtherHobbes wrote:
| I think a lot of people are also pessimistic about the
| future.
|
| It's fairly obvious the world will be very different and
| _much_ less pleasant place by 2050. A lot of people don 't
| want their kids to live through that.
|
| It's possible aliens will arrive before then and fix all our
| problems, or some other Salvatio Ex Machina, but it's not
| exactly a high-odds bet.
| sumtimes89 wrote:
| More wealth and education gives people the option to choose
| which I think is a good thing. People who don't want kids
| shouldn't be forced to have them. Before, people had kids
| because they needed them to work on their farm or it's what was
| expected of them as a housewife. Now that we have a choice,
| less people want to commit to taking care of a human for 18+
| years. It's great so many people want to be parents but having
| a kid doesn't automatically make someone a great parent.
| chzblck wrote:
| Love seinfield's quote about kids -
|
| "One of the nice things God does, is that he doesn't let people
| who don't have kids know what they're missing"
| BigTTYGothGF wrote:
| One of the nice things about not having teenage daughters is
| you don't have to worry about Jerry Seinfeld hanging around.
| jen729w wrote:
| Kids aren't for everyone. Please don't guilt-trip people for not
| having them. (I know this article isn't doing that.)
|
| https://wearechildfree.com/
|
| Disclosure: Zoe is my cousin.
| eloisant wrote:
| Of course people are free not to have kids... But I've always
| find it weird to "celebrates childfree lives".
|
| And I'm frankly annoyed by the growing activism to ban kids
| from public places in the name of "adults quietness".
| whateveracct wrote:
| many adults nowadays are less resilient than my baby
| markus_zhang wrote:
| As a parent I'm kinda cool with that. Adults, especially
| middle-age family adults, are not really supported in this
| world and they should enjoy whatever the peace they can get.
| If my kid gets too grumpy I'd bring him out for a walk and he
| is usually happier after that.
|
| Ofc no escape on trains/buses, but he loves those, so that's
| fine.
| gametorch wrote:
| > Tired of doing this alone?
|
| That's some pretty ironic copy xD
| mkapoor26 wrote:
| How come this article by PG is trending today?
| fusslo wrote:
| there was a twitter exchange (I don't have a link) where
| someone said the YC mindset is to not have kids and PG replied
| with this essay
| jorisboris wrote:
| I see a lot of different opinions here, from very positive to
| very negative.
|
| I think the answer is, it's both.
|
| When I was an employee sometimes I was happy, like when a
| promotion was lurking, and sometimes I was unhappy and stressed,
| when getting fired, when facing deadlines, ....
|
| But when I started working for myself the amplitude of emotions
| became way stronger, every week I would fluctuate between feeling
| doomed forever or feeling like a genius.
|
| Life with and without kids is the same: The emotional highs of
| having kids are way higher than anything I experienced without
| kids, but sometimes the lows are very low.
| eloisant wrote:
| People can also have very different experiences because kids
| can be very different.
|
| My kids have been really easy, no big problems, but sometimes I
| see other parents dealing with really serious issues with their
| kids.
|
| It starts with babies, some of them sleep easily while other
| cry all the time, to teenagers who can be nice kids with no
| problem at school to being called to the director's office all
| the time and have to seriously worry about their future.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I have a ~6 years old boy and I'm quite neutral about that --
| that is, if I somehow go back to a few years ago, I may or may
| not go forth for a kid -- which was my attitude back then anyway.
|
| There are some upside, but they are...tangible. The downside is
| concrete and solid. From hindsight, having a kid has nothing to
| do with my long-term objectives, but since I can't dial back in
| time, I'll try to be at least a median good father -- I have
| gotten the financials covered, and I'm pretty sure in that part
| I'm better than the median, but for the focus part I'm not sure.
| bayarearefugee wrote:
| As a 52 year old I specifically avoided having kids.
|
| For decades I have been convinced that we are speed-running into
| a global environmental crisis that we will continue to ignore
| until it is far too late and this will result in associated
| resources wars and I never wanted to doom other people into
| having to live through that.
|
| I sincerely hope for the sake of those of you who made a
| different choice that I turn out to have been overly doomerist,
| but watching the Trump 2.0 years play out I now think that I
| wasn't doomerist enough.
| hotfrost wrote:
| I would really like to have kids, but I don't have my act
| together. I also feel like my partner is not suitable or capable
| of properly taking care of our kids. Feels pretty awful and am
| scared to not have any kids as I grow older. I worked hard to get
| a good relationship with my partner, and now that we have one I
| worry kids will only ruin what we have now
| dominotw wrote:
| just go for it. there is never a really good time to have a
| kid.
| chzblck wrote:
| You'll never feel ready but you will always be ready. One of my
| biggest regrets is not having kids sooner
| Daneel_ wrote:
| I hope you're in a position where you can have an honest
| conversation about it with your partner. I've come to realise
| over time that honest and open communication is the most
| critical thing in any relationship. I really hope it works out
| for you both!
| whateveracct wrote:
| your world will change in that hospital room the first day or
| two together with the new person in your family. it really is
| seismic.
| mothballed wrote:
| I never felt that and I attribute whatever happens to most
| people there as the reason why I never understood parenthood
| quite the way most people do. It seems as if most parents
| have some kind of 'drug' that dumps in their veins when they
| are around their kids. It's interesting to read about because
| it's like hearing an alien tell me what life is like.
| sp4cec0wb0y wrote:
| This is an easy perspective to have if you are of the generation
| that got into a home purchase before they went out of control.
| Gen Z is being priced out of creating families.
|
| Hacker news has a bias because most people here are working in
| software and _probably_ make more than the median household
| income (solo).
| JeremyHerrman wrote:
| I'm in the thick of it right now as a serial founder with a 5 and
| a 1 year old. One thing I'm surprised paulg didn't touch on is
| how much it can evolve your relationship with your partner (for
| the better!).
|
| Watching my wife have special moments with our kids fills my
| heart like nothing else.
|
| Seeing her be an amazing mom is like watching your cofounder take
| on a completely new role outside of their previous experience and
| crush it. Except it's even better since you're in love with them
| and have all these biological/chemical signals to help kick that
| in high gear.
| btilly wrote:
| There is a politically correct thing to say about having kids. It
| is wonderful, I love them, it made me want to be a better person.
| That's all true.
|
| I'm not going to be politically correct. I'm going to be honest.
| For some of us, it is a hard reality check.
|
| As children, many of us had various kinds of hard experiences.
| You can get a rough idea of how hard your background likely was
| by tallying up the different kinds of Adverse Childhood
| Experiences that you had. The result is your ACE score, and it is
| a standard risk assessment tool. You can find the list near the
| end of
| https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/24875-adverse....
|
| My ACE score is 9/10. Most of you won't have had that level of
| challenge, but a lot of you had problems. I've done a lot to deal
| with my background, work on my mental health, and so on. I swore
| to break the cycle, to give my children a better start than I
| had.
|
| I mostly succeeded. Only mostly. The impact of my failures became
| obvious when COVID turned many homes into hothouses for mental
| illness. My kids were not unique in their struggles. But within
| their peer group, it was my kids that were hit first and hardest.
| And then I did not cope well with the result. As a result I,
| also, have been having mental health problems.
|
| For people like me, I recommend a long and hard think before
| having children. If you do have children, you will naturally try
| to do your best. I certainly did. You are extremely unlikely to
| succeed as well as you'd like. I certainly didn't. And so you
| should also prepare to give yourself grace for the ways in which
| you might fail. If I had done better on that, then I would have
| been better able to carry on and try to pick up the pieces when
| the shit hit the fan.
|
| To everyone who is beginning on this journey, I wish you luck.
| Cherish what you have. Do your best.
|
| And if your best did not turn out to be as good as you wanted,
| you have my sympathy.
| OnAironaut wrote:
| There is nothing more narcissistic and selfish than having kids.
| There is nothing noble about fulfilling your biological
| imperative to leave a descendant. Quite the opposite, really,
| it's a rather primitive egoistical desire to somehow continue
| oneself after death.
| chzblck wrote:
| Probably good you are taking yourself out of the gene pool
| OnAironaut wrote:
| If idiocracy is good then yes.
| gametorch wrote:
| Talking to a psychotherapist or reading fiction might help
| you feel more at ease. It's a crazy, contradictory world. I
| wish you well.
| whateveracct wrote:
| haha okay you definitely couldn't hack it
| throwaway77385 wrote:
| I wish there was a way to make this decision rationally. My wife
| and I are coming up to the point of no return. We either do it
| now, or never.
|
| Now let's try to figure this out: Do we have enough money? Yes,
| probably. We could survive 10 years without making another dime.
| I don't know what kind of safety net is recommended, but people
| do it with a lot less. We live in a country with free health
| care, so illness won't end our lives like it does in the USA.
|
| With that out of the way, let's get to all the other points:
|
| How much do I want children? Personally, I don't get it. If my
| wife wasn't dead-certain she _must_ have at least one child, I
| would never, ever consider it. I hate noise and chaos. I even
| find co-habitation challenging.
|
| I was an only child and I think I'm mildly autistic. To me,
| 'alone time' and 'quiet time' are sacred and required for my
| sanity. Well, I know that goes out the window with children. My
| wife is the opposite: Many siblings, has always been around noise
| and chaos. Loves giving love. To me, the dog, to anyone. And that
| is why she seems to have this need. So, the decision is: Do I
| give up what I want, to make her happy?
|
| Her happiness is about as important to me as my own. So that's a
| stalemate. She keeps saying how worried she is that it will ruin
| my life. But I also don't want us to split up over this, knowing
| that I have 'taken' her fertile years. She won't have a kid
| except with me. So that's also a stalemate. I have had a pretty
| terrible childhood. So I know I'm biased. I don't want to let
| fear dictate my life.
|
| Almost any occasion where I've stepped outside my comfort zone or
| done things I didn't want to do out of fear turned out to be
| things I was grateful to have done.
|
| I can also see how raising children could be very rewarding. Even
| my therapist said it can be very healing to have children. It's
| an opportunity to do better than my parents. That's valuable, for
| sure.
|
| And then I think of the state of the world. Awful. I wouldn't
| want to bring children into this. I'd even probably say to my own
| mother 'don't bother' if she'd come to consult me about whether
| to have me first. But then I spoke to my granddad, who was a
| teenager during the 2nd world war. He is also probably mildly
| autistic. He said it was the best thing he ever did. Had multiple
| kids.
|
| If I look at my wife's family, they are all happy, successful,
| harmonious people (now). I look at my wife's parents and think
| "what a blessing". The richness of life they get to experience is
| just magical. If I could somehow guarantee that it'd go that way
| for me as well, then I'd have kids already.
|
| But there are no guarantees, just uncertainty. Uncertainty of the
| "life changes forever, irrevocably" kind. That is brutal and
| scary.
|
| The last time I made a similar decision was when starting a
| business. I knew I went down a road that would require stability
| and dedication. I'm a volatile person who quickly gets bored of
| things and wants to move on to other things.
|
| Thanks to my wife I've done a bunch of things I never thought I'd
| do, because they require dedication and consistency. Something I
| don't really have. Renovating houses, starting businesses. I
| surprised myself with what I was capable of. All thanks to my
| wife.
|
| I also think it's basically a crime to not let her raise a human
| being. I am certain anyone raised by her would be a net positive
| to society.
|
| But then there's me and my issues. I don't know how I'll deal
| with it. I don't know what will happen. There's a chance I can't
| do it. And what then? Divorce? Repeat the cycle of putting
| children into the world and abandoning them, like my parents did,
| because they also couldn't handle it?
|
| They were very young and had no money or support. Their
| relationship was also broken. My wife and I are 'old' and we have
| money and we have been an unbeatable team for well over a decade.
| We also have support. Grand-parents are basically next door and
| dying to help with raising a kid. So we are in a privileged
| position.
|
| But my fear of taking this step is not going away. And I won't
| know what it'll be like. Parents look so tired. Many of my
| friends are parents. They all seem to offer the same advice "it's
| hell on earth, I hate every moment of it, it's the best thing
| I've ever done".
|
| Awesome. What am I supposed to do with that? It's useless advice.
| It seems nobody can really tell you whether to do it or not.
|
| Any people here who were equally fearful and then did it, NOT
| regretting it? And I mean truly. I don't want to hear the "I love
| my kids"-mantra. It's an automated thing everyone has to say. I
| mean truly.
| Balgair wrote:
| Having kids is like eating a mango.
|
| You can talk to the foremost mango growers on cultivating mango
| trees and learn everything there is to know about making
| mangoes. You can consult with the best chefs about how to make
| the best mango dishes and desserts and learn the absolute best
| way to prepare and eat mangoes. You can learn from the masters
| of how to paint a mango so lifelike that you'd think the
| painting was real. Etc. You can learn and truly master
| everything surrounding the act of eating a mango.
|
| But until you sink your teeth into a mango and actually eat it,
| you've _no_ idea what you 're talking about.
|
| So, until you actually have the kid, all this worrying is for
| naught.
|
| You will be just fine, the kid will be just fine (they have
| their own agency too, you know), the world will keep turning
| and you have the agency to put a person in it and teach them
| what they need to know.
|
| The real question is if you want to eat a mango or not.
| throwaway77385 wrote:
| Thank you for the perspective. This is a good way of framing
| the dilemma.
| whateveracct wrote:
| the easiest way to bypass all that existential anxiety is to
| have it happen on accident :)
| throwaway77385 wrote:
| Haha, agreed. Like I alluded to in my post, many of the best
| things in my life have come from just being thrown into the
| deep end. If standing at the edge of a pool and ruminating
| over whether to jump or not, one may never do it. If the
| choice is made for you, well, then there's no ruminating. But
| we're too old for accidents now, this is going to happen with
| intention, or not at all. Which is also fine, but I am
| interested in hearing other people's experiences.
| GlibMonkeyDeath wrote:
| Caveat emptor. I am a grandparent now, so I think I have some
| perspective on this.
|
| Of course we love our kids, and we had (and still have) a lot of
| good times with them. But kids can really break your life and
| marriage, too - amongst my peers I can't tell you how many have a
| struggling young adult kid or two (with relatively serious mental
| or physical health problems), with no resolution in sight.
|
| So stay lucky - having a child is a wild act of optimism. And if
| you want kids, don't wait too long. There is never really a good
| time to have a kid (just different trade-offs), so for the best
| chances for health, be as young a parent as possible. And men
| have a biological clock, too: e.g.:
| https://neurosciencenews.com/genetics-sperm-mutation-neurode...
| brightball wrote:
| The serious mental and physical health problems are real and a
| societal concern. Everyone "notices" the trends, but maybe it's
| not you so you just think there's nothing you can do about it
| and do your best to stay healthy.
|
| Then you have a child and you are suddenly hyper-aware of
| _everything_ going into the body and brain. Everything they
| eat, every doctor visit, every time they get sick and what
| could have exposed them, every word spoken on TV, every friend
| they have and how they act or how that friend passes along
| their parents influences, etc.
|
| And suddenly you're very concerned about societal level macro
| influences on food, medical, etc because those influences are
| going to affect your child's life.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| There's definitely a balance here. Not giving a shit, which
| seems to have been the tradition I was raised in, is not
| great. Recognizing problems is good. Acting on all of them is
| bad. You need to raise grounded kids who can grow into
| resilience so by the time they're adults they're able to
| navigate this strange world.
|
| Especially trying to control who their friends are and what
| they hear. Questionable behavior from friends at younger ages
| can actually be a good thing: it lets you plant the seed
| early when your kids still listen to you.
| aogaili wrote:
| he is coping so hard
| bethekidyouwant wrote:
| "most of the freedom I had before kids, I never used. I paid for
| it in loneliness, but I never used it."
|
| I will add to this that the first five years are tough, but it is
| great after that
| knorker wrote:
| It's a well written post, but this:
|
| > The fact is, most of the freedom I had before kids, I never
| used.
|
| That just seems like close to the definition of freedom. I have
| the freedom to go outside right now and eat dirt. I've never used
| it.
|
| If you didn't do something then I guess you didn't want to, more
| than the things you did choose to do instead.
|
| The only way you'd have enough life to do "most" of the things
| you'd be free to do, is if you're not free to do but a tiny
| thing.
|
| > See what I did there?
|
| Yup. Made no sense at all, is what. A UAE passport makes you free
| to visit 181 countries either visa free or visa-on-arrival. It's
| still freedom even if you don't take the time to visit all 181
| countries.
|
| It's not even an interesting paradox. It's just an obvious part
| of freedom.
|
| Most people don't visit more than 35 countries. An Afghanistan
| passport gives you access to 35 countries.
| i_am_a_peasant wrote:
| I once had neighbors above me whose kids yelled all the time. all
| the time. and sometimes they were sick of the yelling and they
| put their girls outside of the apartment door. and she was just
| punching hard the door over and over and yelling "MAMAAAA!".
|
| Sure I feel sorry for the kids being distressed for one reason or
| another. but these guys did literally nothing.
|
| There just has to exist someone on the planet for which the title
| "shit parents" does objectively apply no matter how you look at
| it.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I'm 36, and unlikely to ever have kids. I'm both very grateful
| for the freedom that's afforded me in life, and occasionally feel
| grief for parts of the human experience I'll never feel.
| mekdoonggi wrote:
| I have a kid and it's the greatest joy ever but I am very
| lucky. It's totally okay to grieve that, but I often tell other
| childfree folks: there are many things you can do to feel a
| similar kind of joy. Mentoring, volunteering, caring for
| friends etc. Having the joy of working for others and
| emotionally investing doesn't have to be exclusive.
| mnmnmn wrote:
| Parents were uncool, but surely Paul Graham has always been
| uncool too?
| vincentabolarin wrote:
| Before having kids, you think everything will change forever.
|
| After having kids, you realise that things only appear different
| for a while, and you simply flow into the new reality.
|
| Everything really changed forever, but not as drastically as you
| might have thought.
|
| Remember how everything changed when you got or lost a job? Yeah.
| Well, maybe not exactly, but you get the point.
| Triphibian wrote:
| My big learning from having a kid, was that there was more
| maturing and growing up for me to do (A ton to be honest). Once
| there was somebody else I had to keep alive and care for and
| think about I learned to better de-center myself in the universe.
| I am sure you can get to this perspective many other ways, but
| having children seems to be the easy mode for getting into the
| mindset of "it's not about me any more."
| Xcelerate wrote:
| I've always wanted kids, ever since I was a kid myself, but I was
| never really sure what it would be _like_ to be a parent.
|
| Turns out it's quite strange, because my kids bring me more joy
| than anything else. I'll sit there for hours watching them play.
| You may think "that's not strange--tons of parents say that", but
| for my sort of personality, it's very strange. I've always
| thought of myself as sort of overly analytical, detached,
| ambitious, and a bit obsessive. Not the sort of touchy-feely
| person who chases a two year old around with a smile on my face
| and likes watching videos of cute babies. Yet here I am. I enjoy
| it so much I've even tried to figure out if there's a way I can
| take a sabbatical from work to spend the last two years with my
| youngest at home before he goes off to school (seems unlikely
| given how questions about a random two year gap on my resume
| might affect my long-term career).
|
| It's funny that as a kid I always wanted to work at a tech
| company for the interesting tech, but now as an adult my favorite
| thing about it has been the 4 months of parental leave I was able
| to have with each newborn.
| olau wrote:
| You just write "spent two years raising my youngest kid
| [building tree houses and whatnot]". If you keep a bit up with
| tech, why would anyone think twice about that? They wouldn't
| where I live.
| tsoukase wrote:
| Having kids is a 4 billion year old life function (instinct).
| Simultaneously it is a highly sofisticated behaviour with
| multiple dimensions (raising).
|
| Genetics play a decisive role in kid's behaviour and
| powers/weaknesses. Next comes the mother, next the father and
| later the society.
|
| Let's not forget that parents are "kids" of the society that
| heavily influence their behaviour that eventually shapes their
| kids.
| smath wrote:
| My 2c is that it is not 'joy' or 'happiness' that kids bring to
| parents universally (although they might bring those things for
| some parents), but 'meaning'. Meaning is harder to define than
| joy/happiness, perhaps because it is less objective and more
| subjective.
| oxag3n wrote:
| Reading the post and >100 comments I've just realized there are
| differences between dad and mom mental experience.
|
| Looks like many dads are changing mentally when their first child
| is born or a bit later. Mine changed somewhere during the second
| trimester.
|
| Bonding is also almost automatic for mothers (especially who
| breastfeed), whilst it's delayed or never happens at the same
| level for fathers. My first child has never been close to father
| because he worked "9-9-6" and got 2 day leave. He could never
| really calm down crying baby or put her to bed. With the second
| child, thanks to large corp policy, he got 15 weeks bonding leave
| and it was a very different experience for father and child -
| baby didn't care on whose lap to fall asleep.
| neonnoodle wrote:
| I often wonder in these threads what proportion of the commenters
| is male. HN skews heavily male, and statistically speaking,
| fathers are spared a huge chunk of the physical and mental
| burdens of pregnancy, birth, and parenting. Being a mom and being
| a dad are not equivalent, and I have a feeling that not many male
| HNers would readily swap places if such thing were possible.
| sublinear wrote:
| I don't mean to inject politics, but there's a huge mental
| burden on fathers with more conservative values that take their
| role seriously.
|
| Unfortunately, there's no way to elaborate what I mean on HN or
| much of the web without stirring up a ton of pointless
| argument. People will just get defensive and refuse to consider
| perspectives they can't agree with.
| neonnoodle wrote:
| Yeah, I agree, if you're talking about the role of the
| patriarch as a stoic provider who isn't allowed to be a
| vulnerable man with his own emotional needs.
|
| It has been encouraging to see how much more men now seem to
| desire being engaged and nurturing in their children's lives
| (even among those who otherwise consider themselves
| conservative or traditionalist).
| tavavex wrote:
| That huge mental burden is entirely self-inflicted, though.
| It's not a fair comparison to the physical burden that is
| unavoidable.
|
| Growing up in a more conservative society, I've seen many
| people with that parenting style, who often pop a proverbial
| blood vessel trying to ensure that their children are more
| like army cadets that perfectly reflect their worldviews and
| don't take an unapproved step in any direction. Their
| rationalizations ranged from real safety concerns to
| arbitrary opinions like what religion is right (and exactly
| how someone needs to act at all times, with no limits on
| specificity or ridiculousness) or what large groups of people
| are evil (nationality, religion, identity - any group is fair
| game, just pick one and wall off your child from ever knowing
| about them). Regardless of motivation, ideology is a choice,
| and they could've relieved a whole lot of this burden on
| their own at any point.
| caaqil wrote:
| Instead of the ceremonial complaint and preemptive whining,
| why don't you consider making the argument coherently and see
| how people respond?
|
| Ironically, the pointless arguments you so despise (and
| refuse to invite) offer more than whatever utility this
| comment has.
| ergocoder wrote:
| Assuming the income stays the same, I'd happily swap places. I
| suspect many people would.
|
| There are 2 further points:
|
| 1. I'd say the ideal setting is for both parents to work and
| hire a sitter even though it might financially net the same (or
| affordably negative) as having one stay-at-home parent. Because
| a human needs community and diverse things to do, not just one
| thing over and over everyday for years. Both of the parents
| will be much happier.
|
| 2. When people say taking care of baby/toddler is difficult,
| it's almost always about not eating well and/or not sleep well.
| Eating would take an hour of spoon-feeding because the kid
| wouldn't eat by themselves. Kids wouldn't be able to sleep by
| themselves. You must focus on solving these 2 areas first. Once
| they are solved, it gets a lot easier to take care of a
| baby/toddler.
| briHass wrote:
| While stay at home parenting isn't, and shouldn't have to be,
| for everyone, it also isn't somehow a downgrade from being in
| the working world. If anything is doing something 'over and
| over', it's trudging to some job to push papers/keyboard keys
| around for 8+ hours.
| liveoneggs wrote:
| Isn't it convenient that nature has already placed us in our
| respective roles and given us the necessary strengths to handle
| our different but equally important roles?
|
| It's such a tragedy that one might feel compelled to weigh the
| burdens of motherhood vs fatherhood as if either side had a
| choice in the matter or as if there is some kind of competition
| to be won.
| AndrewDucker wrote:
| The only roles that nature put you into are carrying the baby
| and giving birth (and possibly breastfeeding). Everything
| else can be done by both parents.
|
| (I'm a dad, who _does_ do half of everything with the kids.
| It is possible, it 's just a lot of stuff to do.)
| liveoneggs wrote:
| I doubt OP would agree with your assessment nor your use of
| the word "only" but I appreciate you. ;)
| tavavex wrote:
| > On the other hand, what kind of wimpy ambition do you have if
| it won't survive having kids? Do you have so little to spare?
|
| I don't know, it seems like parenthood asks for a lot to be given
| up. Younger people like myself are already struggling to live on
| their own where I am. There's not a lot that can be spared by
| most of us.
|
| To me, having a child means heavily straining your financial
| safety - here, care for this other person that can't do anything
| and has some of the most expensive needs in society. Not only
| that, but you need to be sure that you can provide for the child
| for the next 5, 10, 15 years. Who has that sort of confidence?
| Then there's the part where all your free time is sacrificed to
| care for the child. The time burden decreases, but it's always a
| lot of time. And you always have to be extremely risk-averse - if
| you were just responsible for yourself before, now you have
| someone you need to take into account for every thing you do in
| life. Moves, job changes, major risks or investments, career
| changes, taking on additional responsibilities. All of these
| things probably become much less doable for parents. And this is
| a one-way road with no backing out, you commit to it and are
| stuck with that choice for several decades. By the time your
| child lives on their own, you've already spent a large portion of
| your adult life. And there's no guarantees that your child is
| someone you like, or that your parenthood isn't soured by
| something else. There's plenty of parents who are stuck in
| parenthood and hate it.
|
| The thought of having a child scares me. I'm happy that the
| author is content with how his life turned out, but I'm okay with
| just watching from the sidelines. Maybe the biological instinct
| (forced coping mechanism?) is so strong as to justify living
| through the horrors above in exchange for watching your kids play
| and participating in similar things. But I don't want to learn
| what that's like.
| wltr wrote:
| It's like nobody knows who the author is, and that he's rich.
| It's different from when you're not rich. (Not even saying
| poor.)
| tavavex wrote:
| I didn't realize who he was until I looked up the name. I'm
| just too young to have heard it from real life, and also I'm
| not great at names. I assumed he was someone known in the
| industry, but not literally the founder of Y Combinator.
| coneonthefloor wrote:
| You exist solely to procreate.
|
| I could not imagine an emptier life, than one without children.
| strangegecko wrote:
| I reject your premise, but your conclusion is not surprising
| considering it.
|
| I couldn't imagine an emptier life than one where the only
| thing that matters is procreation. We're not Pacific Salmon.
| coneonthefloor wrote:
| I'm sorry for your loss.
| metalliqaz wrote:
| I think this is an unconsidered opinion.
|
| For example, I wonder how many monks or priests would agree
| with you.
| coneonthefloor wrote:
| Men that make sacrifices to serve.
| tavavex wrote:
| You don't exist for something. You simply exist. What you
| choose to do with that existence is up to you. I've yet to
| see any evidence to the contrary.
| vladgur wrote:
| The best thing our(I'm in US) society can do to dispel fears
| like yours is to offer public daycare where kids are well cared
| for and socialized.
|
| I'm a child of Soviet Era and our parents did not think twice
| if they can afford children with their meager salaries. I
| remember going to a kindergarten as soon as I could walk.
|
| The reality is that a family can always make choices that
| enable them to care for a kid, but there are of course trade
| offs.
|
| Public daycare would mitigate one of those trade offs
| cat-turner wrote:
| As a female founder I want children, but I know that I'll be seen
| as less ambitious if I have them. I will be seen as less, and
| will be more overlooked for opportunities than I already am now.
| I will have them one day, but they'll be in secret. People won't
| know until the business reaches a certain revenue and level of
| success. It is like this for women and anyone who tells you
| otherwise is a liar.
| diehunde wrote:
| Such a corny take. People should have kids when they know for
| sure they want to become parents. If they are unsure because the
| life they want for themselves seems incompatible, then it becomes
| a gamble. So many miserable parents out there who hide their
| experiences because they are afraid of social punishment or
| because they need to convince themselves that this permanent
| life-altering decision was the right one. That's my take as
| someone who for 35 years didn't want kids and one day woke up
| knowing for sure I wanted a kid in my family.
| redwood wrote:
| Do you honestly think those miserable parents stay miserable
| for the long term or might that be a temporary bump in the
| ride?
| pstuart wrote:
| One of the most challenging aspects of being a parent (at least
| for me) is dealing with the kids not interested in cooperating or
| listening/learning. Their mother and I spent a great deal on
| music lessons and it was a challenge to get them to practice, and
| I was unable to coerce them to practice so they could reap the
| rewards of being able to create music themselves.
|
| And just in general, giving guidance and seeing that look on
| their faces that means they're just waiting for you to stop
| talking so they can go on with their lives.
| stuxnet79 wrote:
| > One of the most challenging aspects of being a parent (at
| least for me) is dealing with the kids not interested in
| cooperating or listening/learning.
|
| > And just in general, giving guidance and seeing that look on
| their faces that means they're just waiting for you to stop
| talking so they can go on with their lives.
|
| Instead of seeing this as a challenge perhaps reflect on it and
| take it as an opportunity to learn more about your kids. Not
| everybody is the same, and not everyone will have the same
| aspirations.
|
| I know of many who got the full ride in terms of music lessons
| but do not have any intrinsic passion for it. Overall it was a
| total waste of time in terms of their life satisfaction and
| fulfillment. Me on the other hand, I was very into music but
| didn't have the option of getting any lessons.
|
| FWIW I was one of those kids who was very compliant and
| cooperative but in retrospect I can see that it harmed my
| development / self-concept. It's only now as an adult that I'm
| able to grapple with this.
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