[HN Gopher] Waymo Safety Impact
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       Waymo Safety Impact
        
       Author : xnx
       Score  : 149 points
       Date   : 2026-03-19 20:13 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (waymo.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (waymo.com)
        
       | mkw5053 wrote:
       | Living in SF (and dad of a toddler), this seems like a no-
       | brainer. I can't wait for fewer human drivers.
        
         | kstrauser wrote:
         | I've said before that Waymo is already vastly, incredibly safer
         | than some of my older relatives who refuse to give up their
         | keys. Ever been around The Villages in Florida and seen a man
         | leaning forward behind the wheel to squint at what they're
         | driving toward, with their wife shouting at them to turn left!,
         | turn left!? That's just kind of tolerated in some places where
         | the cops don't want to make waves with the wealthy older
         | community.
         | 
         | A self-driving car never gets tired and sleepy after driving
         | for many hours straight. A highway-bound Waymo would be safer
         | than a few instances of distant past me who stayed on the road
         | longer than I was safe to. They also never get drunk, and are
         | safer than approximately 100% of impaired drivers.
         | 
         | I genuinely think we'll all be safer when lots of people
         | collectively realize that someone other than themselves should
         | be driving.
        
       | jedberg wrote:
       | Anecdotally, both from riding in them and walking/driving next
       | to/around them, this feels obvious. They never get distracted.
       | Sure, they sometimes make mistakes, but the mistakes are never "I
       | didn't see that". They see better than humans in all cases (where
       | they operate). They react faster than humans.
       | 
       | The one case where they hit a child, it was because the child
       | jumped in front of the car. And they showed that they hit the
       | child at a lower speed than a human would have because of the
       | reaction time.
       | 
       | I would rather be in an area where only Waymo's are allowed than
       | an area where they are banned.
        
         | bloppe wrote:
         | Ya and they're the only ones I can count on being polite during
         | rush hour
        
         | Retric wrote:
         | Waymo as a system has crossed the threshold where I trust them
         | more than average driver, but all this hardware is relatively
         | new, well maintained, and their software is closely tied to it.
         | 
         | I'm way less confident of self driving in the hands of the
         | general public when differed maintenance often results in
         | people and even companies driving with squealing breaks and
         | balding tires etc.
        
           | mtklein wrote:
           | I am also not looking forward to the system transitioning
           | from "big experiment, burn money to make it good" to
           | "established business unit, tweak it to death for
           | incrementally more money / personal promotion." We're still
           | in the honeymoon period and I very much expect to hate Waymo
           | in 10 or 15 years when they reach a steady state.
        
             | gfody wrote:
             | enshitification should be a new certainty along with death
             | and taxes
        
           | kirubakaran wrote:
           | The self-driving software could detect that the unmaintained
           | car isn't responding correctly to the controls and refuse to
           | drive.
        
           | jeffbee wrote:
           | Waymo's software has crossed multiple generations of sensors
           | and vehicles over almost two decades. It does not seem to be
           | tightly coupled to a particular device.
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | Not tightly coupled in obvious ways, but as I understand it
             | they aren't putting it on pickup trucks, convertibles, or
             | anything toeing a boat etc. Their vehicles don't have
             | aftermarket suspension systems dramatically changing
             | handling characteristics, or turned one into a stretched
             | limo etc.
             | 
             | Which means the software can safely assume the vehicle will
             | behave within a relatively narrow operating range.
        
               | jeffbee wrote:
               | The only thing an autonomous system should do with janky
               | modified cars is drive them very slowly to the state
               | police barracks for destruction.
        
               | Retric wrote:
               | Perhaps, but you can do a lot to a car while it remains
               | street legal.
        
         | fellowniusmonk wrote:
         | I ride my bike and rollerblade around Austin.
         | 
         | If only Waymo's were on the road I wouldn't worry about bike
         | path dividers at all.
         | 
         | I sometimes pace them to act as a moving shield.
         | 
         | Nothing else comes close, not even eye contact and being waved
         | on by a human. The other autonomous cars that have been
         | introduced are at least just as scary to be around as people.
        
           | ajp-stl wrote:
           | sounds like you enjoy the predicability of Waymo vehicles.
           | humans are unpredictable.
        
         | jjmarr wrote:
         | Waymo saved my life in LA.
         | 
         | When I visited LA, I rode in a Waymo going the speed limit in
         | the right lane on a very busy street. The Waymo approached an
         | intersection where it had the right of way, when suddenly a car
         | ignored its stop sign and drove into the road.
         | 
         | In less than a second, the Waymo moved into the left lane and
         | kept going. I didn't even realize what was happening until
         | after it was over.
         | 
         | Most human drivers would've t-boned the car at 50+ km/h. Maybe
         | they would've braked and reduced the impact, which would be the
         | right move. A human swerving probably would've overshot into
         | oncoming traffic. Only a robot could've safely swerved into
         | another lane and avoid the crash entirely.
         | 
         | Unfortunately, the Waymo only supported Spotify and did not
         | work with my YouTube Music subscription, so I was listening to
         | an advertisement at the time of my near-death experience. 4.5
         | stars overall.
        
           | Taek wrote:
           | > Unfortunately, the Waymo only supported Spotify and did not
           | work with my YouTube Music subscription, so I was listening
           | to an advertisement at the time of my near-death experience.
           | 4.5 stars overall.
           | 
           | This detail sent me, it's crazy that we can pay $25 to have a
           | life saving robot take us across the city yet Spotify is
           | going to blast ads at us the whole time for the sake of
           | making an extra $0.18 (yes that's the actual number) per hour
           | of listening time.
        
             | himata4113 wrote:
             | That's around 44.64 (0.18 _8_ 31) per month, no wonder ads
             | are preferrable to companies over subscriptions! That's
             | actually a lot for people that listen to music all day
             | every day at work.
        
             | whatever1 wrote:
             | Imagine your last thing in your mind being an ad about
             | mongoDB.
        
               | 0x3f wrote:
               | I actually find those amusing because they just make me
               | remember the 'web scale' meme.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | It's kind of wild how you have so many ads targeted at
               | devs in SF.
        
           | georgemcbay wrote:
           | > I was listening to an advertisement at the time of my near-
           | death experience.
           | 
           | You'll probably never forget that advertisement, which is an
           | exciting business opportunity for Waymo.
           | 
           | They could partner with Spotify and other media content
           | partners so that the Waymo can generate an adrenaline-rush
           | near crash experience when a premium advertiser's ad is
           | playing. /s (hopefully)
        
             | Analemma_ wrote:
             | This is one of those comments that made me laugh nervously.
             | It's straight out of Ubik or another PKD novel, which
             | probably means it's less than 5 years away from being real.
        
           | AgentME wrote:
           | Waymos have since added support for YouTube Music thankfully.
        
           | ElijahLynn wrote:
           | How ironic that an Alphabet company, Waymo, only works with a
           | competitor streaming music service, Spotify, and not their
           | own, YouTube Music. I guess that shows how separate they are.
        
         | whyenot wrote:
         | There is also a different kind of increased safety. There is no
         | driver. No weird conversations about slaughtering goats, no
         | sexual advances. No worrying that your driver is going to
         | assault you or attempt to kidnap you. I know, it's all very far
         | fetched, and Uber/Lyft drivers are almost always nice,
         | courteous and professional, but I have experienced a few times
         | when that hasn't been the case. With Waymo, it's not even an
         | issue.
        
           | 0x3f wrote:
           | There are second order effects though. Once Waymo kills the
           | Uber driver/taxi jobs, what are the chances your Waymo is
           | attacked by a roving band of jobless drivers? It's surely
           | nonzero.
        
           | dbt00 wrote:
           | This is like keeping your kids inside in case something bad
           | happens to them.
           | 
           | If your kids never leave the house, something bad definitely
           | happens to them, they stay kids.
        
             | 0x3f wrote:
             | Is there some benefit to talking to weird Uber drivers I've
             | yet to discover that's comparable with 'going outside at
             | all'?
        
         | krashidov wrote:
         | Blaming the kid here is absurd. The kid lives in a system where
         | pedestrians are second class citizens in a world dictated by
         | the auto-petro industrial complex. An industry that has co-
         | opted unelected traffic "engineer" in the US and completely
         | changed the way we live for the last 70 years and have made
         | Americans fatter and less connected.
         | 
         | If the child lived in a neighborhood where cars went slower (it
         | was a 25mph zone) he wouldn't have gotten hit in the first
         | place. Praising Waymo here is like praising a priest for not
         | molesting a child. Yes it's good that the waymo slowed down
         | more than the average car, but really the whole system should
         | be completely rethought. Instead, we're pouring billions into
         | single occupancy vehicles, when we should've been pouring
         | billions into high speed rail, subways, etc.
         | 
         | I'm hopeful that waymos converge on a more efficient design and
         | improve cities in general. As it stands, they are a way for the
         | rich to commute without having to exchange pleasantries with
         | the underclass.
        
           | spankalee wrote:
           | Good thing no one blamed the kid.
        
             | krashidov wrote:
             | I was probably a bit too harsh on the OP. The OP was
             | probably not blaming the kid. But if Waymo isn't being sued
             | and the city isn't being sued, then society has
             | collectively placed blame on the kid and their parents.
        
               | 0x3f wrote:
               | Blame isn't really zero sum is it. Like you can be
               | criticized for leaving your laptop unatended and your
               | doors unlocked, but it doesn't really reduce blame for
               | the thief.
        
         | fainpul wrote:
         | > They see better than humans in all cases (where they
         | operate). They react faster than humans.
         | 
         | You're absolutely right!
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp0W5v8GOPc&t=520s
        
       | bogardon wrote:
       | I'd love to cycle more outdoors, but I'm always wary of the
       | risks. How cool would it be if you could hire a waymo as a "team
       | car" and have it follow you around? It could also carry extra
       | equipment...and act as a ride home in case of emergencies.
        
         | sonofhans wrote:
         | I get your idea, but it does rather sound like asking a 4,000lb
         | death robot to follow you around closely and hope that it
         | doesn't screw up ...
        
           | amarant wrote:
           | To turn the colourful phrasing against you, I too would like
           | a death robot to protect me from all the murder monkeys
           | having a death race around me if I was out biking on the
           | road/death race track.
        
             | vel0city wrote:
             | Wouldn't the better solution be to prevent those murder
             | monkeys from doing the death races around where people
             | would want to cycle? Some kind of grade-separated trail?
             | More regulations on those murder monkey death races?
             | 
             | Crazy thought, I know.
        
               | amarant wrote:
               | The grade separated trail sounds great in theory, but in
               | practice it's surprisingly ineffective for some unknown
               | reason. In Sweden we have a ton of those and for some
               | reason bikers insist on participating in the death race
               | with the other murder monkeys. Which is annoying because
               | it can really slow the race down! But I guess once they
               | have a good alternative, at least their death race
               | participation is voluntary, and so I guess they're fair
               | game like the rest of us
        
         | wffurr wrote:
         | If you ride conservatively (use lights at night, use good
         | judgement at intersections) and stay away from buses and
         | trucks, the exercise vastly outweighs any risk.
        
           | loeg wrote:
           | Personally I avoid riding at night entirely, and use at least
           | a tail light during the day.
        
       | Detrytus wrote:
       | Someone once said that this is because Waymos are novelty, and
       | they still behave a bit weird, like being slow and undecisive.
       | Which leads to humans being super-careful around them. So the
       | Waymo safety record is actually not their own achievement.
       | 
       | I guess we'll have to wait to one of the two things to happen to
       | really assess Waymo's performance:
       | 
       | 1. They need to lose their markings and easily distinguishable
       | features (like a big lidar on top), so they don't get any special
       | treatment from other drivers.
       | 
       | 2. They need to be majority of vehicles on the road.
        
         | bt1a wrote:
         | I'm only a little weirded out when they're right next to me
         | stopped at a light and that thang is spinnin and making note of
         | me
        
         | Analemma_ wrote:
         | That info is pretty outdated: they were slow and indecisive in
         | 2024, but now they behave pretty much like any top-decile human
         | driver. I don't think they get special treatment from other
         | drivers either, I can't read anyone else's mind but I treat
         | them like just another car and it seems like everyone else does
         | as well.
        
         | linkjuice4all wrote:
         | Ugh - either the commons is an unregulated 3D space or we
         | actually tag and separate moving bodies regulated by
         | size/weight, purpose, owner, occupant type, etc. I don't
         | necessarily hate commercial vehicles utilizing the various
         | rights-of-way but clearly there is a difference in momentum,
         | agency, and general "value" between some human wandering around
         | and a heavy robot.
        
         | doubled112 wrote:
         | How slow and indecisive?
         | 
         | The other day a human driver in front of me was doing 30 km/h
         | under the speed limit down the middle of two lanes.
         | 
         | On that same drive, another driver doing around 15 under
         | clipped a roundabout on the way in and on the way out. Guess
         | they couldn't decide to turn the wheel fast enough.
         | 
         | I refuse to believe everybody is hammered all of the time, but
         | I'm starting to wonder.
         | 
         | It is less than 10km round trip, in the 'burbs. Driving with
         | humans scares me anymore. Bring on the robots.
        
         | djsavvy wrote:
         | That would make sense a while ago, but definitely not in SF for
         | locals who have lived here a while. For me as a
         | pedestrian/bicyclist/motorcyclist I actually feel safer around
         | them than any other car.
        
         | probabletrain wrote:
         | recently (past couple of months) they've been much more
         | aggressive in the ways that make a good driver a good driver -
         | confident and assertive when they should be. for me this has
         | anecdotally been a massive improvement
        
         | swasheck wrote:
         | one of the things that i noticed in a recent trip to austin is
         | that the waymo vehicles were far more assertive and quick than
         | the human drivers so maybe that has been addressed.
        
         | sbuttgereit wrote:
         | "Someone once said ..."
         | 
         | Someone also once said that the Azores are the remains of
         | Atlantis. I simply didn't put any credence in it.
         | 
         | While behavioral changes around a self-driving car are
         | plausible; they're common enough now that, at least where I
         | live in San Francisco, regular human drivers should be pretty
         | well acclimated to them.
        
       | zardo wrote:
       | Is this an independent study?
        
       | bt1a wrote:
       | I've been observing their behavior in Atlanta for about the past
       | year. Our roads here are fairly curvy, hilly, and lacking of
       | expected markings, yet I haven't seen a driverless Waymo vehicle
       | make a single odd move. One thing that brought a smile to my face
       | was when I came to a 4-way stop at the same time as a Waymo
       | vehicle at night & I flash my brights to tell the other vehicle
       | to go ahead (southern hospitality) and I see the Waymo
       | immediately begin its course through the intersection. I was so
       | jolted that I began to tail it in order to pull up next to it to
       | see if there was a human behind the wheel. Watching it drive down
       | this slowly descending hilly road with intermittent speed humps
       | and cars parked alongside the main right lane gave me a close up
       | view of its slightly curving trajectory and braking behavior with
       | regard to the humps. My thought on human or not was inconclusive
       | until we reached a red light, and as I shot my eyes over and saw
       | an empty driver seat, I smiled widely knowing that the software
       | responds to brights flashed at 4-way stops (please don't tell me
       | it doesn't and it just saw me indecisively not initiate at the
       | stop). Thanks for reading
        
         | kfarr wrote:
         | It definitely does not respond to flashing headlights in that
         | manner. You're observing its default behavior when at a 4 way
         | stop with other vehicles not moving.
        
           | djsavvy wrote:
           | How are you saying that so confidently? Waymos respond to
           | traffic cops directing traffic manually
        
             | jmalicki wrote:
             | Unlike the traffic cops directing traffic that would likely
             | require special programming, "proceed if the other car
             | flashes its lights at you" is completely the kind of thing
             | that could just accidentally fall out of a neural network
             | learning to imitate humans.
        
               | shawabawa3 wrote:
               | Hopefully if they ever go to Sri Lanka they get localised
               | tuning because I was surprised to find out flashing your
               | lights over there doesn't mean "go ahead", it means "if
               | you don't get out of my way I will ram you"
        
               | j0e1 wrote:
               | This is true for India too though traffic there isn't
               | known for its rules.
        
               | 0x3f wrote:
               | I hate the countries that do this because it doesn't even
               | make sense as a signal. We already have a horn. They are
               | wasting a channel!
        
               | gowld wrote:
               | That's not how Waymo works, though. Waymo doesn't imitate
               | humans. Waymo is trained to obey traffic laws and avoid
               | collisions.
        
               | LeifCarrotson wrote:
               | Waymo immitates humans insofar as its neural net trained
               | on avoiding collisions after millions of miles of video
               | footage and LIDAR data on roads shared with humans causes
               | it to immitate humans.
               | 
               | It's likely manually programmed not to (incorrectly) turn
               | the wheel to the left while stopped and waiting for an
               | opportunity to turn. If you get rear-ended, you'll end up
               | in the lane of oncoming traffic. It's certainly
               | programmed to use its turn signals to indicate when it is
               | going to turn. But after driving around thousands of cars
               | without turn signals on but with their wheels pointed
               | left, it "knows" to predict that they're about to turn,
               | and might immitate humans by anticipating that action and
               | moving to pass the stopped car on the right.
        
               | jmalicki wrote:
               | Waymo has published a ton about the imitation learning
               | they've been using since 2018. They're not imitating
               | random cars but their drivers who are paid to drive
               | around and follow traffic laws.
               | 
               | It's not enough so they use heavy reinforcement learning
               | etc. but it's still a huge foundation to build on.
        
           | HaZeust wrote:
           | A quaint, positive anecdotal comment?? On MY internet?!?!
        
       | t1234s wrote:
       | why does HN still use links to twitter.com and not x.com?
        
         | wffurr wrote:
         | Presumably that was the submitter's choice.
        
         | rhet0rica wrote:
         | Optimism. Someday the blue bird will be free.
        
           | oblio wrote:
           | Imagine creating a brand that became renowned world wide and
           | even created its own verb.
           | 
           | And then throwing all that away for the genius brand name
           | of... "x". Brought to you from the same 50 year old that
           | decided that having car models that spell S3XY is cool.
        
       | sonofhans wrote:
       | "Safer" == "Safer than all other human drivers in the same city."
       | By their own admission, this is not a straightforward comparison.
       | If they could do the math for the same routes, times of day, and
       | conditions ... maybe I'd believe it. Otherwise, this data is
       | trivial to cherrypick, and they have every reason to present it
       | as well as possible.
       | 
       | I believe Waymos are pretty safe, and that's a great thing.
       | "Safer than humans (for selected rides inside this area)" is
       | still very good, but it's not at all "Safer than humans
       | (period)."
        
         | jstummbillig wrote:
         | > By their own admission, this is not a straightforward
         | comparison.
         | 
         | If they _wanted_ to cherry pick, would they not omit that
         | admission?
         | 
         | In any case, it seems plausible to me that the routes that
         | Waymo drives are above average in human incidents, given that
         | Waymo is probably overrepresented in high stress/traffic, inner
         | city scenarios.
        
           | lich_king wrote:
           | The comparison gets picked up as the headline; the admission
           | does not. This is exploited quite often, e.g. in science
           | reporting. I'm not saying this is what Waymo did - they don't
           | seem to be bad actors - but absolutely, the pattern does
           | occur.
        
         | lemoncucumber wrote:
         | I've heard that Waymo relies on having very accurate map data
         | for the areas where they operate, so perhaps they could perform
         | worse than human drivers in areas where they don't have good
         | map data.
         | 
         | But I also trust that the company wouldn't deploy them in those
         | areas until the quality data they need is available. So perhaps
         | "safer in the environments where they are actually deployed"
         | would be more accurate, but that's also the only thing that
         | matters.
         | 
         | Speculating about what would happen if they were used in ways
         | they are neither intended to be used nor are actually used
         | feels a little silly. Most machines can be unsafe if you use
         | them in ways they're not intended to be used.
        
         | snewman wrote:
         | In essentially all cases where a Waymo and a human-driven car
         | have collided, the human driver has clearly been at fault. This
         | seems definitive and not susceptible to cherry picking.
        
           | tjoff wrote:
           | That could just be, and seems to be in some cases at least,
           | because Waymo doesn't behave like a human would, and people
           | gets tripped up.
           | 
           | I don't doubt Waymos are very safe, but I always irk at these
           | comparisons. Majority of human accidents are due to gross
           | negligence and/or driving under some influence or serious
           | fatigue. A system incapable of alcohol etc. is better than
           | that? Well that is a substantially lower bar than you can
           | possibly imagine. Add to that that all systems have
           | constraints on how and where they are able to go. Combined
           | even Tesla can be made to look good.
           | 
           | Depending on the context and question it might still be the
           | question to pose. But people often make the leap to assume
           | that a typical Waymo is x better than a typical human driver
           | which is an entirely different question entirely.
           | 
           | Waymo is for sure one of the (if not the only) good players
           | out there though, gives me some hope.
        
             | JumpCrisscross wrote:
             | > _could just be, and seems to be in some cases at least,
             | because Waymo doesn 't behave like a human would, and
             | people gets tripped up_
             | 
             | Driving conventions vary wildly across states and even
             | within them. And foreign drivers are a thing. A human who
             | gets tripped up by a Waymo acting unusually will also get
             | confused by someone getting used to no turns on right in
             | Manhattan, driving on the right side of the road if coming
             | in from the Commonwealth or adapting from California's
             | protected left turners can turn into any lane, not just the
             | leftmost. They'll also get confused by children and pets,
             | who aren't bound by social custom, and deer, who aren't
             | bound by physics.
        
         | hiddencost wrote:
         | https://waymo.com/safety/impact/#methodology
         | 
         | Worth reviewing the methodology, rather than making stuff up.
        
         | probabletrain wrote:
         | If you were choosing between getting into a Waymo or a car
         | driven by a human driver (where Waymo operates, for a route
         | that Waymo would do), the data shows that the Waymo is safer.
        
           | sonofhans wrote:
           | No, it does not. For one thing, we don't have access to all
           | the data, just what's being told us. For another, it at best
           | shows that Waymo is safer than average. Safer than an
           | attentive London Cabby? I bet not.
        
             | probabletrain wrote:
             | I know that anecdotal experience is definitionally just
             | that, anecdotal. But I've had a handful of attentive London
             | cabby experiences (and enough in-Waymo experiences) that
             | give me conviction that Waymos are far safer than them.
             | They're out there driving all day every day, it's obvious
             | to me that a Waymo driver is going to be safer than even a
             | professional.
             | 
             | One cabby pulled out of a t junction to end up alongside me
             | on a motorbike - a Waymo would never do that.
        
             | jonas21 wrote:
             | > _For one thing, we don't have access to all the data_
             | 
             | In the US, we _do_ have access to all the data [1]. They
             | 're required to report every incident with an injury or any
             | amount of property damage, and it's all available for
             | download as CSV.
             | 
             | > _For another, it at best shows that Waymo is safer than
             | average._
             | 
             | No, it shows that Waymo is 6 to 12x safer than average.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-
             | general-orde...
        
         | rootusrootus wrote:
         | Perhaps the comparison should only be to other taxis. Since I
         | cannot buy a Waymo, it is not really relevant whether it is
         | better than an _average_ driver (including all the drunk ones,
         | and the speed racers, etc).
        
           | skissane wrote:
           | There are other safety differences with human-driven
           | vehicles... interpersonal violence does happen with taxis
           | (e.g. drivers sexually harassing/assaulting passengers,
           | passengers robbing drivers) - by definition those things
           | cannot happen with a Waymo
        
         | skippyboxedhero wrote:
         | accidents are not equally distributed across humans. more
         | serious accidents will be caused by people who are habitually
         | doing things that are unsafe but, for various reasons, most
         | places lack effective ways to stop these people driving so they
         | keep causing accidents.
         | 
         | the metric is not some nebulous aspect of skill but the bottom
         | decile of human drivers causing accidents. it is not difficult
         | to believe that an AI can drive better than this group, it is
         | not a high bar, below the 10th percentile are people who should
         | not be driving but cause most of the accidents.
        
         | 0x59 wrote:
         | I appreciate the skepticism. While I suspect motor vehicles
         | that cannot be distracted would be safer than motor vehicles
         | that can be, it shouldn't be claimed without real evidence.
         | 
         | If I were Google, I'd partner with some insurance carriers to
         | compare the number of claim events normalized to the number of
         | drivers on the road (approximated with Android data) in a city
         | (same time of year, etc) before and after introducing Waymo. If
         | claims per driver decreases, then I would be more inclined to
         | support the claim that they're actually safer and that they
         | don't just "seem safer"
        
         | janalsncm wrote:
         | A year or two ago, would have agreed with you. I used to think
         | they were cherry picking as well.
         | 
         | But Waymos have driven so many miles by this point, if they are
         | hiding some data that would tip the scales back towards human
         | drivers I have yet to see it. If there is a way to slice the
         | data that makes Waymo's look less safe I would welcome the
         | correction.
         | 
         | If Waymo truly has 80-90% fewer crashes in the conditions they
         | drove in, then it still has policy implications for places like
         | Phoenix that do have good conditions.
        
       | butlike wrote:
       | More boring, too. Can't meet cool people if it's yet again just
       | me left to throw a proverbial tennis ball against the proverbial
       | wall.
        
       | stebalien wrote:
       | I live in LA and Waymos are the only cars I don't have to play
       | chicken with when crossing the street. Even the drivers that see
       | you will just give you a "sorry, I'm in a rush" wave as they
       | nearly run you over.
        
         | leovander wrote:
         | Make sure to never be in a hurry to get anywhere because you
         | might then get stuck behind a fleet of them going exactly the
         | speed limit, grid locking you in.
        
           | flipbrad wrote:
           | Isn't the correct answer to this, lobbying for higher speed
           | limits? Rather than chastizing obedience to current rules.
        
             | TimTheTinker wrote:
             | Yes, agreed. Though speed limits higher than 75 are not
             | something I will ever support.*
             | 
             | * Unless we're talking about removing a speed limit
             | altogether and regulating unsafe driving using other
             | criteria.
        
               | jjav wrote:
               | What happens at 76mph?
        
               | TimTheTinker wrote:
               | Same thing that happens at 77mph :)
               | 
               | I think 75 is memorable and roughly in the region where
               | the tradeoff between increased kinetic energy and
               | decreased time to arrival per additional unit of velocity
               | becomes untenable.
        
           | UltraSane wrote:
           | Being forced to drive the speed limit isn't that big of a
           | deal
        
           | Toutouxc wrote:
           | Is this something that I'm too European to understand? How do
           | you get "stuck" behind someone doing the speed limit?
        
             | JumpCrisscross wrote:
             | > _How do you get "stuck" behind someone doing the speed
             | limit?_
             | 
             | "Only 46.5 percent of U.S. drivers consider going more than
             | 15 miles per hour over the speed limit on the freeway to be
             | "extremely" or "very" dangerous -- with 40.6 percent openly
             | admitting to doing it at least "a few times" in the last 30
             | days" [1].
             | 
             | [1] https://usa.streetsblog.org/2023/11/30/why-so-many-u-s-
             | drive...
        
             | 1shooner wrote:
             | On most US highways (i.e. multi-lane limited access roads),
             | it's customary to leave a path in the left 'passing lane'
             | for any traffic that wants/needs to go faster than you. If
             | cars match speeds across lanes, it impedes faster traffic.
             | 
             | The speed limit itself is a separate convention and
             | regulation. In some places you can be cited for obstructing
             | traffic by going the speed limit in the passing lane if you
             | are matching the speed of cars to your right, effectively
             | blocking the road.
        
             | LeifCarrotson wrote:
             | Because American drivers have normalized always driving 10
             | mph (16 km/h) over the speed limit.
             | 
             | Cops won't pull you over or write tickets if you're not at
             | least 15 mph over, we basically don't have speed cameras,
             | everyone's trying to win the rat race and dehumanizing
             | other cars around them, and it's not considered morally
             | wrong (by most) to break that specific part of the law.
             | 
             | So a single vehicle obeying the law will quickly get a long
             | line of tailgaters and tailgaters of tailgaters trying to
             | "push" the vehicle to go faster.
             | 
             | They can suck it, I'm not late or in a hurry, and my
             | ancient truck, steel bumper, and class 5 receiver hitch
             | will not be badly harmed by your plastic grille. I get
             | better gas mileage and have a longer stopping distance when
             | I drive the limit, and I don't care if others are honking
             | or riding my ass because they think I should drive faster.
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | non-X source: https://waymo.com/blog/shorts/waymo-safety-impact-
       | update-170...
        
         | xnx wrote:
         | Ah. That's the link I was looking for.
        
       | kevwil wrote:
       | https://people.com/waymo-exec-reveals-company-uses-operators...
       | might be relevant content as well
        
       | scj wrote:
       | "For example, the current cities Waymo operates in do not have
       | appreciable snow fall, and as a result neither the Waymo nor the
       | human benchmark data include this type of inclement weather."
       | 
       | I'm happy to see this acknowledged, and hope it's a sign that
       | they appreciate the difficulties of winter driving.
        
         | xnx wrote:
         | They're definitely aware and working on it:
         | https://x.com/dmitri_dolgov/status/2028863520037867820
        
       | ellieh wrote:
       | as a motorcyclist I often feel more comfortable riding near
       | waymos
       | 
       | at this point I trust that they have seen me, know that I'm
       | there, and won't behave unpredictably
        
       | cjonas wrote:
       | Relevant: https://youtu.be/cJER6WtOkjk?si=pfUMpqgCL8IHewKy&t=28
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | This page is old, but they just refreshed the data shows Waymo is
       | 13x safer than human drivers (in the cities it operates in).
        
       | pokot0 wrote:
       | My question is: is safer than average human good enough?
       | 
       | When I drive I have the option to choose to be safe or not. When
       | a computer drives I lose that option. So for 49% of the people,
       | safer than the average human is less safe than before.
       | 
       | I think we need to reach "Safer than the safest 10% of humans".
       | 
       | Also these reports should be done by a government agency.
        
         | cgeier wrote:
         | Yes, it's good enough. Because you cannot control who else is
         | on the street around you. Having cars around you that are
         | driving safer than the average is better than them driving
         | average.
        
       | jeffbee wrote:
       | Even the most visible academic skeptic of Waymo (Phil Koopman)
       | had to throw in the towel and admit that they've cleared every
       | conceivable statistical hurdle to conclusively demonstrating that
       | they are better than humans on injuries and airbag deployments.
       | They have moved the goalposts to aesthetic arguments, for
       | example: if it's so safe why does it sometimes do weird stuff?
       | But to principled systems thinkers they have already shown what
       | needed to be shown. It's safer.
        
       | altruios wrote:
       | Car centric design is ruining this country.
       | 
       | The great deal: let's redesign our cities to be car free.
       | Consider the economic boom that amount of renovation would
       | produce. Consider the increased economic activity from happier
       | and more productive people. Consider the increased space for
       | nature, parks, real estate, development.
       | 
       | Cars are the worst thing to have been invented. Optimizing the
       | personal automobile leads to optimizing for a horrible living
       | experience in the city. Let us reconsider all of this. This is
       | bad. We can do better. We must.
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _let 's redesign our cities to be car free_
         | 
         | Or, let's not spend trillions of dollars on a behavioural
         | experiment and get pedestrian safety with now-proven kit.
        
       | weusedto wrote:
       | Anecdote from 1000s of miles biking: I bike a lot in the Bay, for
       | fun, exercise, commute, all of the above (I'm a friendly one, I
       | promise!) and the comfort I feel when I see a Waymo alongside me
       | or at a stop sign is immediately apparent. I have been hit 5-10x
       | riding in NYC and SF (nothing serious, gratefully, mostly just
       | people turning right not knowing/caring I was there), and the
       | Waymo's awareness that I exist is immediately obvious and so
       | different from a large percentage of human drivers. I hope the
       | meaningful improvement in safety continues to convince people
       | this should be a part of the future.
        
       | bryanlarsen wrote:
       | 13X is way more impressive than it seems at first glance.
       | 
       | Let's take a simplistic model of accidents: that the average
       | driver is at fault in an accident 50% of the time. So a perfect
       | driver would only halve the number of accidents -- they only
       | eliminate the accidents where they would otherwise have been at
       | fault.
       | 
       | But Waymo's numbers are better than the "perfect" driver above.
       | How is that possible? Because in most accidents the blame is not
       | split 0%/100%. You can avoid a lot of accidents with defensive
       | and safe driving.
        
       | small_model wrote:
       | Hmm this happen a week or two ago, doesn't sound too safe to me.
       | 
       | "Waymo car blocked ambulance trying to get to scene of Austin
       | mass shooting"
       | 
       | https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/waym...
        
         | philip1209 wrote:
         | > doesn't sound too safe to me.
         | 
         | Compared to what?
        
           | small_model wrote:
           | Humans or more intelligent full self driving systems.
        
       | jaesonaras wrote:
       | I just watched a short that said some (all) Waymo drivers are not
       | autonomous, but remote controlled by humans in the Phillipines.
       | 
       | I'm sure it's a combination of both since the latency would mean
       | immediate reactions are impossible, but the presenter raised an
       | interesting point, and that was that the remote drivers are not
       | licensed to drive in the states that Waymo operated in, which
       | would make it illegal.
        
         | keeganpoppen wrote:
         | except for the overwhelming evidence from video we already have
         | that waymos are reacting than a human in the driver's seat
         | would, much less someone 200ms away.
        
       | koinedad wrote:
       | Pretty cool to see. But the UI of the visual animations has some
       | weird re-re-rerender bug, at least on mobile safari.
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | Now do Surveillance Impact:
       | https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2024/10/27/waymos-5-6...
       | 
       | "Waymo is using around four NVIDIA H100 GPUSs at a unit price of
       | 10,000 dollars per vehicle to cover the necessary computing
       | requirements. The number of sensors - five lidars, 29 cameras, 4
       | radars"
        
       | whatever1 wrote:
       | The bar is low. I don't want comparison with an alcoholic with
       | multiple DUIs who still drives and crashes.
       | 
       | The benchmark should be the top decile of drivers.
        
       | motbus3 wrote:
       | If someone drives badly they might go to jail if they hurt or
       | kill someone. If a machine does it who pays? I want to see waymo
       | and other CEO for decades for each mistake.
        
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