[HN Gopher] We were right about Havana syndrome
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We were right about Havana syndrome
Author : Bender
Score : 61 points
Date : 2026-03-11 20:01 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (warontherocks.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (warontherocks.com)
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Related:
|
| _60 Minutes Havana Syndrome report finds U.S. government tested
| energy weapon_
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47314335
| themafia wrote:
| I'm not sure having a microbiologist on to talk about RF energy
| weapons was a good choice. I also have significant doubts about
| this "black market Russian RF weapon" storyline. Just because
| you found an item on the black market doesn't mean it exists in
| general, is a viable weapon, or can be used to explain "Havanna
| Syndrome."
|
| There's almost no data with which to draw any conclusions about
| this.
|
| It seems convenient that this pops up right at the moment the
| government could use a distraction.
| jajuuka wrote:
| It's a lot of coincidences falling to place at the same time.
| Which is very suspicious. And doesn't seem to be well
| supported outside government agencies or controlled
| organizations like CBS either. Does feel like someone is
| jingling the keys.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Just because you found an item on the black market doesn't
| mean it exists in general
|
| RF based energy weapons have been a thing since (at least)
| 2010 [1]. According to folklore, the initial "microwave"
| cooking appliance was a side effect from some radar
| researcher noticing either his testicles or some chocolate
| got warmer than expected.
|
| The interesting thing is, the rumors about the Russians using
| RF weapons have been circulating for well over a decade. Why
| has no one gone ahead and installed RF spectrometers and
| radio direction finding gear in and around sites with
| suspicious activity?
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System
| zamadatix wrote:
| I'd apply the same level of skepticism to the bit at the end
| - the government seems to always be in the state of having
| use for a distraction so is it really surprising most stories
| can be labeled as "convenient" when the only alternative is
| reporting on nothing but what the government is up to today?
| themafia wrote:
| The government needs different levels of distractions at
| different times. For example, when they're stuck in a
| boondoggle of a war with Iran that's not going nearly as
| well as they hoped or projected.
|
| I'm sure RF weapons exist. They would need a pretty hefty
| power supply and heat sinks since microwave transmitters
| are often inefficient at high gain.
|
| Saying "the russian black market" pretends to have one does
| not obviate from you the requirement to explain how this
| implementation is different or unique and overcomes the
| obvious challenges implied by _basic_ physics.
| orbital-decay wrote:
| Yeah. For comparison, Novichok makes total sense, it's just a
| multi-component poison designed to avoid detection and used
| on dissidents and spies, and there were multiple insider
| leaks, starting with its creator literally giving interviews
| and other scientists publishing the research in the open.
| It's chemically sound, it's not something extraordinary, it's
| a known quantity. This story, on the other hand, says that
| for 30 years (including _completely_ different times, the 90
| 's) they arbitrarily targeted the CIA in particular with a
| weapon of unknown and pretty dubious nature, which was never
| replicated or even possibility investigated, in what could be
| described as James Bond-level operations (hilarious given
| their level of competence), CIA themselves helping cover it,
| and this incredibly secret clandestine weapon of unknown
| nature is casually sold in the black market. This is an
| extraordinary amount of extraordinary things that need to be
| true at the same time, and the story suddenly re-emerges in a
| pretty convenient moment.
|
| I'm not necessarily saying this is a lie, but they certainly
| need extraordinary evidence for all this to be believable.
| amarant wrote:
| Tbf, when was the last time the government _didn 't_ need a
| distraction?
| PaulHoule wrote:
| It's amazing that everybody who has a tendency for paranoia or an
| interest in weird knowledge knows about
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect
|
| but that kind of person can't get a security clearance or get
| taken seriously by the State Department.
| MisterTea wrote:
| > but that kind of person can't get a security clearance or get
| taken seriously by the State Department.
|
| This feels similar to the early Area 51 law suits which were
| thrown out because the government denied the facility existed.
| I feel that yes, the government was aware of the situation but
| downplayed it because they have something to hide.
|
| My tin foil hat explanation is that the US government was fully
| aware of what was happening. Why is unknown though I could
| guess that A. the US denied knowledge of such weapons to give
| plausible deniability which leads to B. The US deployed such a
| weapon on premises to use/test against Cubans and inadvertently
| sickened their own people in an accident.
|
| I don't doubt Cuba could initiate such an attack but I find it
| very unlikely the US would be befuddled when the US government
| along with others have developed and experimented with sonic
| weapons. Given the recent trends towards more authoritarian
| governments these weapons are easy to deploy against citizens.
| This article was posted to hn recently:
| https://earshotngo.substack.com/p/sonic-attack-on-a-silent-v...
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| One proposal I've heard is that the US also has weapons like
| these and wanted to keep their existence classified.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I could have been more clear, but yes, that is my point
| too.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| MAE is kind of obvious, because healthy ears are incredibly
| sensitive. 0 dbSPL translates to attowatts on the eardrum
| displacing it just a few pm, with hair cells firing on sub-nm
| movements (after mechanical amplification). It is completely
| unsurprising that just the thermal effect of RF being pulsed in
| the general direction of the head can become audible in the
| right circumstances.
| aa_is_op wrote:
| These things happen next to Russian embassies and everyone
| goes... I wonder who could it be...
| Beestie wrote:
| Here is a 2019 study that supports the claims of actual injury:
|
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2738552
| why_at wrote:
| I am not very knowledgeable about this topic, but in my cursory
| reading of wikipedia I see that there's been some criticism of
| this study:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome#University_of_...
| isamuel wrote:
| Very weird that clandestine imperial gophers start to feel
| anxious and have trouble sleeping after a while. must be a secret
| laser
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| Radio waves aren't exactly a secret.
|
| Pop the magnetron out of a microwave and direct it towards
| someone's head _[0]_ , and I imagine they're not gonna have a
| great time. And that's with parts available in many average
| homes.
|
| The Active Denial System _[1]_ works based on these principles,
| but different frequencies.
|
| _0 - Don 't do this_
|
| _1 -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System_
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Mount that magnetron in front of an ordinary satellite dish
| and oh boy whatever is at the focal point of it will _not_
| have a nice day either. Your average satellite dish has about
| 38 dBi of gain - an 1 kW magnetron will yield something
| around 3 MW EIRP if you manage to end up in the RF path.
|
| That is why even around "small" scale radio transmitters such
| as phone cell towers you absolutely have to keep a safe
| distance, and even more around large broadcast towers or even
| radio amateurs doing serious satellite communication.
| janalsncm wrote:
| If it were just a magnetron shooting microwaves it would be
| blocked by a ton of materials. Maybe a microwave laser would
| work though.
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| The concept is the same: directed radio waves. They can be
| tuned and directed far better than a magnetron and
| waveguide pulled from a microwave. This is an adversary
| more sophisticated than some rando disassembling appliances
| in their garage, and even a moderately knowledgeable radio
| technician could improve upon it.
| GuinansEyebrows wrote:
| it seems like there was an external physical cause of havana
| afterall... but i still laughed at this :)
| Fraterkes wrote:
| Any source for that external physical cause? Ideally by a
| publication/source that a skeptic like me won't just dismiss?
| cleaning wrote:
| Reader's note: the author was a member of the CIA for 26 years
| halyconWays wrote:
| That should disqualify them from ever being taken seriously on
| anything. Would you trust water from a well that was once
| poisoned? Even if you scrubbed every inch with soap and water,
| wouldn't there still be some residue that you'd rather not
| ingest? And I don't think people's inner selves can actually be
| cleaned, nor do they even want to, usually.
| johncessna wrote:
| As a reminder, they are likely subject to the lifetime
| prepublication review[1] which requires anything published to
| be reviewed by the agency prior to publishing.
|
| [1]https://www.cia.gov/resources/publications/
| mnmnmn wrote:
| The US government treats its employees like dog shit
| gcanyon wrote:
| Note: "We were right" here means "it's a real thing," but the
| article has almost nothing concrete to offer about what actually
| is going on or who is responsible.
| rurp wrote:
| Exactly, the definitive claim in the headline is not at all
| supported by the article.
| dmix wrote:
| > Pentagon bought device through undercover operation some
| investigators suspect is linked to Havana Syndrome
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-devi...
| vintermann wrote:
| I think that if you offer Russian criminals millions of
| dollars for a mysterious device which could possibly cause
| Havana syndrome, you're certain to get a mysterious device.
|
| This is confirmation bias with the side step of giving a ton
| of money to Russian criminals.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| According to those reports, the US military tested it for
| more than a year on animals, and found that they suffered
| similar patterns of brain damage. They didn't just get a
| device and say "wow, this looks like a bunch of very
| suspicious electronics, too bad we can't turn it on!"
|
| Naturally the testing claims from insiders could be
| specious. But once you go down the road of distrusting
| stories told by spooks, so could the purchase of a weapon
| in the first place. The CIA might not even be a real thing.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| There has been some recent reporting that has made "Havana
| syndrome is a real thing" look more plausible:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2026/02/14/...
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-...
| colechristensen wrote:
| Russia developed a less lethal directed energy weapon which is
| essentially a microwave oven radio signal switched off and on
| very quickly (likely something like a GHz signal with a highly
| directional antenna being switched at kHz)
|
| Eyewitness reports at the Maduro kidnapping raid and a recent
| leak in the last few days regarding the US purchasing such a
| weapon from Russia and testing it at least on animals tie all
| of this together.
|
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-tested-device-that-...
| stephbook wrote:
| My feeling has always been that there was no interest in
| investigating this.
|
| The government can skirt medical help, can send the next batch of
| officers in without problems and doesn't need to confront an
| adversary that is politically.. difficult under Trump. It's
| certainly no coincidence that Russia would start using something
| like this in Cuba, a friendly state, and not say.. France. Where
| the local police and spy agencies could investigate and observe.
|
| Just imagine what would have to happen if someone acknowledged
| Havanah syndrome is real.
|
| Next up, burn pits cause lung damage and brain damage too.
| Fraterkes wrote:
| At the core of "Havana Syndrome" lies the idea that Cuba and/or
| Russia have managed to develop energy weapons so advanced that
| the American military command won't even entertain the thought of
| them existing. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
| MisterTea wrote:
| This was the point I made in another comment here. My bet is
| the US deployed the weapon and accidentally sickened their own
| people. So of course they play stupid and deny that any such
| tech could exist.
|
| Though the Russians have been very clever in the past stumping
| the US:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
| duped wrote:
| There's also the chance it's not a weapon, but something that
| mistakenly turned into a weapon when it was tested on live
| subjects.
|
| I don't think randomly attacking embassy staff (iirc, not
| everyone was CIA - there were just desk people affected) makes
| sense for anyone to do, but trying to listen on them and
| fucking up sounds right up their (or our) alley.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > won't even entertain the thought of them existing
|
| Careful, it's also possible that they have thought _very hard_
| about such things, and they 've decided that revealing what
| they know would lose them a technological edge.
|
| In other words, what if the CIA/DOD already _knows_ there 's a
| class of devices which could explain the problems, and the
| denial is about maintaining secrecy over their own operational
| capabilities?
|
| Imagine something similar in the 1980s: "This tragic mid-air
| collision was _obviously_ caused by faulty radar or gross pilot
| error by at least one of the two military planes... Our
| brightest minds have looked very hard at the problem and _there
| is no such thing_ as a 'stealth' airplane which doesn't show
| up on radar."
| fragmede wrote:
| Or going back further, Allies having cracked the Enigma
| encryption had to let Allied ships continue getting sunk and
| soldiers dying because to act otherwise would have revealed
| that the Enigma had been broken which would have led to an
| even greater loss of life.
| everdrive wrote:
| >At the core of "Havana Syndrome" lies the idea that Cuba
| and/or Russia have managed to develop energy weapons so
| advanced that the American military command won't even
| entertain the thought of them existing.
|
| I just don't think that's true at all. The answer could easily
| be that Cuba and Russia have developed energy weapons that we
| only know about from classified sources and therefore cannot
| discuss their existence.
| vintermann wrote:
| Sure, if you think the intelligence community is better at
| physics than the physics community.
| sailfast wrote:
| The assumption with these weapons was that they would require
| too much energy to be portable enough to be undetectable in all
| of these circumstances (at least based on other reporting on
| the subject).
|
| If the device doesn't require a lot of power, then it's
| entirely possible that American military commanders and
| research leadership would miss it.
|
| Add to that an incentive to avoid helping the victims from a
| cost and overhead perspective, and you get a big ol' mess.
| bitexploder wrote:
| Or that we have them too...
| PLMUV9A4UP27D wrote:
| I put my bet on
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness If the
| authorities have made the same conclusion, it would be very
| difficult to tell the affected individuals that. This is since
| there is a misconception that mass psychosis A) only happens to
| mentally "weak" persons. B) Symptoms are made up/"just in your
| imagination"
|
| But the symptoms are very much real, and it's not something that
| is easily treated. How mass psychosis can lead to actual medical
| illness is unknown, but the cause and effect is documented.
|
| For that reason it might appear as a cover up, when authorities
| avoid giving answers.
|
| Even though I'm familiar with the science behind mass psychosis
| illness, I would still probably have difficulties accepting that
| as an explanation if I were in a similar situation.
| Nevermark wrote:
| If that is so, why not acknowledge that the current working
| theory is that it is psychogenic, but that doesn't make it any
| less real.
|
| The fact that psychogenic illness is not simply "weak" people,
| but a real phenomenon, strongly supports the fairness and
| necessity of offering treatment.
|
| The wikipedia article says when authorities publicly take the
| effects seriously it can induce more cases. But the example was
| of getting help from a witch doctor, which was a remarkably
| dysfunctional "validation" to add to an already complex
| problem.
|
| Another very dysfunctional "validation": official denial,
| avoidance, obvious lack of work on solutions or mitigations,
| and all the trappings of a cover up!
|
| Being direct has so many benefits, vs indirect denial or bad
| faith "treatments".
|
| It would be a reassuring response, to those in the same context
| without symptoms who are concerned about their own health.
|
| Direct responses, with care given, are also in a better
| position to find treatments for psychogenic symptoms,
| preventative practices that reduce vulnerability, or alter
| working theories of cause, as any other evidence emerges.
|
| Chronic anxiety and anxiety attacks are "psychosomatic" on an
| individual basis. But very real, often caused or impacted by
| working conditions, and important to diagnose and treat.
| Psychogenic illness should be the same. "Illness" is not a
| cause limited concept.
| bryan0 wrote:
| While there have probably many people that have been affected
| by the secondary "mass psychosis" effect of havana syndrome, it
| seems unlikely that is the primary cause considering the device
| is now out in the wild:
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/2026/01/13/politics/havana-syndrome-...
|
| https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-tested-device-that-...
| conception wrote:
| The most obvious and large scale example of this I've seen is
| carpal tunnel syndrome in the 1990s and early 2000s. everybody
| had carpal tunnel syndrome and then just one day it all went
| away. not that the people who were suffering with it were
| faking anything. it's just what was on everybody's mind and
| then it wasn't.
| swayam-41 wrote:
| Even after serving 26 years, he has to left CIA.
| leephillips wrote:
| The article seems to have been written by an LLM and is
| illustrated by an AI-generated image. And it contains little or
| no new information.
| vortegne wrote:
| Not gonna lie, it's impossible to feel bad for someone who has
| been in the CIA for decades.
|
| A small-scale imperial boomerang. The gaslighting and other
| tactics coming to bite you in the ass for a change, instead of
| some nation where US has "interests".
| apalmer wrote:
| Didn't the US use some weapon that essential causes the same
| thing as Havana Syndrome?
| jmyeet wrote:
| Fentanyl has become a huge issue with street drugs. It's being
| laced in other drugs. It's an incredibly strong opiate and
| because the mixing is imprecise, it can be easy to overdose
| unintentionally.
|
| What's more interesting is the hysteria around fentanyl, which is
| completely made up and has no basis in fact, but is perpetuated
| by police unions and media outlets who are likely currying favor
| with police unions or just trading on the hysteria.
|
| In it's purest form, fentanyl can exist in a powder or liquid
| form. I could give you a massive quantity of either and you could
| handle them completely fine. How do I know this? Because health
| workers do this all the time. It's like handling talcum powder. I
| mean you would probably want to wash your hands and you wouldn't
| want to lick it but there are no fumes and you can't be poisoned
| or dosed just by being in the same room as fentanyl in _any_
| form.
|
| Yet this completely made up fear has caused law enforcement
| officers to believe they've suffered from fentanyl exposure. For
| example [1]:
|
| > Results
|
| > Nearly all leaders and officers interviewed wrongly believed
| that dermal exposure to fentanyl was deadly and expressed fear
| about such exposure on scene. Officers had a lack of education
| about fentanyl exposure and faulty or dubious sources of
| information about it.
|
| and [2]:
|
| > Police in the United States have told implausible stories about
| airborne fentanyl exposures for years. The real symptoms appear
| related to panic attacks and the psychological trauma of
| policing.
|
| So something that's completely made up can lead people to create
| their own symptoms. It also fits the narrative of people
| believing their jobs are more dangerous than they actually are.
|
| So, back to Havana Syndrome. I've always been convinced that it's
| completely fake. There are probably people who like the narrative
| because it makes the Russians or Cubans scary with some unknown
| tech. And that means you need to research your own versions,
| right?
|
| One possibility I might believe is that these people were exposed
| to something most likely from the CIA itself. You might say "the
| CIA wouldn't do this to their own". Think again [3].
|
| So to believe any of this I want these people to release their
| medical records and have some independent medical analysis. Does
| the author really have TBI? Was there some other cause? Did this
| person suffer, say, an injury in a motor vehicle accident and is
| intentionally or unintentionally blaming it on Havana Syndrome?
|
| Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09553...
|
| [2]: https://www.leidenlawblog.nl/articles/police-panic-and-
| fenta...
|
| [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
| rustyhancock wrote:
| Havana syndrome appears to be a functional neurological disorder.
|
| Think shell shock of world war I.
|
| None the less the deserve support and careful ongoing research
| and investigations as appropriate. Fundamentally it is an
| occupational illness.
|
| FND isn't "making it up" or even "all in your head" but a complex
| interplay of mind, body and circumstances.
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