[HN Gopher] The MacBook Neo
___________________________________________________________________
The MacBook Neo
https://www.pcmag.com/news/asus-co-ceo-macbook-neo-is-a-shoc...
Author : etothet
Score : 323 points
Date : 2026-03-11 11:37 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (daringfireball.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (daringfireball.net)
| jackhalford wrote:
| > Given Apple's historically very premium pricing, launching such
| an affordable product is certainly a shock to the entire market
|
| No? Apple has been delivering way cheaper laptops ever since M1,
| this one is just even cheaper. I thought PC execs were asleep at
| the wheel but not this bad.
| alwillis wrote:
| > Apple has been delivering way cheaper laptops ever since M1
|
| I wouldn't "way cheaper".
|
| A baseline Neo with 256GB SSD is $599 vs the first M1 MacBook
| Air with 256GB SSD was $999 ($1,251.09 in 2026 dollars)
|
| A Neo with 512GB SSD is $699 vs the M1 MacBook Air with 512GB
| SSD was $1249--that's $1,568.38 in 2026 dollars.
|
| So this is a big deal; the Neo is the first Apple Silicon
| MacBook where the starting price is less than $999.
| ndiddy wrote:
| Apple sold the the base model M1 Macbook Air through Walmart
| for $600 between when they stopped selling it directly up to
| early this year. It looks like this computer is about as
| performant as that one, so I guess they started to have
| trouble sourcing components and came up with the Neo as their
| replacement.
| alwillis wrote:
| I know that Walmart and Costco sold discounted M1 MacBook
| Airs, which why I used introductory prices.
|
| > so I guess they started to have trouble sourcing
| components and came up with the Neo as their replacement.
|
| There's no indication Apple had any issues with getting
| components; they're have problems with sourcing more
| expensive components.
|
| Apple tends to be very deliberate with products; this isn't
| a replacement for something else.
|
| In fact, there was an article stating unlike some other
| laptop manufacturers, Apple's prices aren't expected to
| rise because their buying power and having contracts in
| place [1].
|
| A low-cost MacBook using an iPhone process has been rumored
| for at least a year.
|
| [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/10/apple-holds-edge-
| laptop...
| bombcar wrote:
| It's pretty obvious to me that the Walmart Wonder sold
| better than they expected, and they wanted to make it
| widely available.
| scuff3d wrote:
| "Of course, it's not that it cannot do all the work, but
| considering user experience and those hardware limitations, the
| experience, I think, differs significantly from mainstream
| products..."
|
| I worked in retail for a decade, a lot of that was selling
| computers. The vast majority of what people buy computers for
| could be done a toaster. You don't exactly need top end specs to
| browse the internet, reply to emails, and write the occasional
| document.
| vrighter wrote:
| electron...
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| the average user could probably do most of their computing on a
| $150 cell phone and a raspberry pi 4.
|
| gaming is a different beast, but there are xboxes, ps5s, steam
| boxen, etc.
| scuff3d wrote:
| Exactly. That's why the comment was seemed arranged to me.
|
| For the most part, there's gamers/editors and a few other
| groups who need a lot of horsepower. They're generally gonna
| have decent hardware. Then there's everyone else, who
| wouldn't notice a difference regardless of hardware (to a
| point). There just isn't a whole lot of middle ground.
| dagmx wrote:
| I was watching this video and it's pretty impressive what can be
| done on this spec machine.
|
| https://youtu.be/d-VOt9559Gk?si=tYlDstnaxtQWoJ88
|
| He opens 50+ apps at once while working in Final Cut and
| Lightroom. Obviously anyone doing those full time would benefit
| from more resources but I think this is going to be enough for a
| big chunk of the population, and will be more appealing than the
| windows alternatives.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| I still remember how Apple fans run around singing praises what
| their 8GB M1 _absolutely_ kicked ass of Intel Macs with 16GB
| (and even more). Only to quietly replace them with a model with
| more RAM next year or some even way earlier than that.
|
| I can open even 500 apps on _any_ laptop. This is what swap
| for. But with only 8GB you are getting into the swap territory
| very fast because you need almost half of it for the OS and
| video memory.
|
| Eg: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47272996
| thejazzman wrote:
| It did/does absolutely kick ass and 16GB is better. They're
| not at odds with each other :D
| dagmx wrote:
| More RAM is better. But doesn't negate that it's still very
| usable. Did you even bother to watch the video for
| responsiveness before commenting? Also it was a couple years
| after the transition to arm that Apple bumped the minimum RAM
| they shipped their laptops with.
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > But doesn't negate that it's still very usable.
|
| As a glorified terminal? Sure.
|
| > Did you even bother to watch the video for responsiveness
| before commenting?
|
| I did, now what?
|
| > Also it was a couple years after the transition to arm t
|
| Hello, we are talking about Neo with the same 8GB.
| dagmx wrote:
| It's hard to take you seriously or at face value if you
| did watch the video and called it a glorified terminal.
|
| What in the video is remotely glorified terminal like?
| What terminal are you using that gives you local 4K
| editing capabilities and the ability to run locally run
| Lightroom for 50MP files?
| p_ing wrote:
| And here I am on my M2 w/ 24GB RAM and a couple of RAW 48MP
| photos will bog the system down.
|
| And if Time Machine kicks in, there goes any form of
| performance since Apple can't seem to figure out what a
| 'background task' is.
| rurban wrote:
| I've used an MacAir with 8GB ram starting at 700EUR for years,
| writing and testing compilers. This was until the macOS and
| butterfly keyboard desasters, which made me go back to 450EUR
| ThinkPad Ryzen laptops with Fedora, upgraded to 64GB RAM.
|
| My wife is using a fancy new air for 2500EUR, which is way
| better. But I still think of the good old MacAir times, they'll
| try to bring up again.
| frankacter wrote:
| I'm a bit confused about who this article is really for. The
| MacBook Neo starts at $600 so when I read:
|
| "MacBook Neo is built on an iPhone chip--the A18 Pro. It's far
| less capable of running intensive tasks than any of Apple's
| M-series chips or any moderately powered Intel or AMD processor."
|
| and that:
|
| "It's merely the right kind of performance for anybody who wants
| to browse the internet or stream video."
|
| ...at this price point there are plenty of alternatives for
| laptops with better performance and specs.
|
| For example, you can get a 15.6" Ryzen 7 5700U laptop with 32GB
| RAM and a 1TB SSD for less than the "unbeatable" price of the
| Neo:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/NIAKUN-Computer-Processor-Graphics-Ke...
|
| Or a 15.6" Intel Core i7-1255U/12650H laptop with 16GB RAM and a
| 1TB SSD in a similar price range:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/HP-Laptop-High-Performance-i7-1255U-4...
|
| Both of these offer:
|
| * A more traditional laptop CPU
|
| * 2-4x the memory
|
| * 2-4x the storage (1TB vs 256GB base on the Neo)
|
| Standard HDMI/USB-C video out for external displays
|
| So I can definitely see the appeal of the Neo for people who just
| want an inexpensive way into macOS, but the claim that "no other
| budget laptop can compete." doesn't track.
|
| Maybe it should have been "The least expensive Macbook yet, but
| that comes with significant downsides."
| sockaddr wrote:
| Your amazon links are broken. But I think you're missing the
| point of this thing. This isn't for people that really even
| care about performance. It's for people that want a laptop that
| works with their iPhone, does all the things their school needs
| them to do in a browser, and doesn't come with a complete
| dogsh*t OS, and isn't of dubious quality like an HP or a
| "NIAKUN", whatever that is.
|
| Now the color options, that's a tragedy.
| frankacter wrote:
| >Your amazon links are broken.
|
| Thanks. Fixed.
|
| >This isn't for people that really even care about
| performance. It's for people that want a laptop that works
| with their iPhone
|
| That was my conclusion to my comment in my original. The
| title of "no other budget laptop can compete" is not just
| sensationalized, it is factually wrong. It should have been
| "the least expensive macbook yet comes with a catch"
| musicale wrote:
| > Now the color options, that's a tragedy.
|
| Maybe they need to bring back psychedelic iMacs.
|
| https://www.slashgear.com/1706745/rare-apple-imac-designs-
| fl...
| saghm wrote:
| "No other budget laptop can compete on offering MacOS" is
| certainly a correct statement, but it's not a particularly
| interesting one. If they're missing the point, it's because
| it was exaggerated to the point of not being recognizable.
| x0x0 wrote:
| And for their kids sick and tired of trying to help them fix
| Window's incompetence. You're into Dell for at least $800 for
| anything approaching an actually usable laptop. This is
| definitely my mom's next laptop.
| atoav wrote:
| I would ask the opposite. For years now for most of my family
| even a Raspberry Pi 3B+ 3ould be enough. 95% of people use
| their machine to run a web browser, that easily ran on hardware
| that was old 20 years ago.
| frankacter wrote:
| Agreed, which is why a $600 price point on a "budget laptop"
| targeting users running a web browser seems quite over
| priced.
| atoav wrote:
| Well but that's the thing. It is priced like a phone for
| exactly the kind of person who would spend 600 bucks on a
| phone. I don't think this is a coincidence.
|
| In terms of performance the raw compute people have in
| their pockets nowadays surpasses what they typically need
| by magnitudes for a while now. Granted: programmers and
| tech companies find new ways of wasting that compute on
| features that people ultimately do not need, so they may
| need that the compute so things _feel snappy_ , but if I
| think about what my parents do on their devices you could
| easily enable them to do theirs tasks with far less. They
| are essentially doing the same as ca. 2006 with pictures
| and videos being higher fidelity & resolution and websites
| running hundred thousand lines of javascript being the main
| difference.
| tim333 wrote:
| The thing with laptops in my experience is a) they last ~6
| years (macs at any rate) so that's ~$100/year or 27c a day
| and b) people spend a lot of time on them, hours a day
| often. Is it really worth cutting back much on that when
| it's like 1/10th the cost of getting a cup of coffee?
| apimade wrote:
| Total cost of ownership.
|
| I'd give my entire family these ahead of Windows laptops any
| day.
| hulitu wrote:
| > Total cost of ownership.
|
| Mister Gates, is that you ?
| theshrike79 wrote:
| MKBHD said it best: If you're looking at the reviews of the
| product on tech youtube channels or tech news sites - it's not
| the laptop for you.
|
| As for your comparisons: My aunt doesn't need a terabyte of
| storage or a Ryzen 7 5700U, she needs 15+ hours of battery life
| because the laptop is going to live next to her spot on the
| couch and she most likely can't remember to plug it in every
| night.
|
| Also the first laptop is from a reputable brand called NIAKUN.
| They must have amazing customer service and unbeatable
| warranties, right? =) And they certainly will exist in 12
| months when you go look for the brand on Amazon and won't be
| replaced by another random set of letters in all caps selling
| the exact same product?
|
| The HP is on sale, it's MSRP is $699 and for some weird fucking
| reason has the numpad on it, making the whole keyboard wonky.
| Who wants that on a laptop?
|
| And the final thing, as with all price-forward comparisons:
| build quality. We need an objective standard measurement for
| chassis and keyboard flex, the ability to open the lid with one
| finger, the amount of creaking and squeaking said laptop will
| do in normal use and how hot and loud it gets in your lap when
| doing light browsing.
| bdbdbdb wrote:
| Anyone doing accounts and data entry wants a numpad. My dad
| recently damaged his laptop keyboard. I gave him a spare usb
| keyboard, and he still went out and bought a new keyboard
| just for the numpad. There's a reason pc makers keep stuffing
| those lopsided monstrosities in there
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Anyone doing data entry with a numpad will also want a
| proper one, not a squishy laptop one.
|
| But they're clearly not the majority of the people - the
| rest of us have to live with a lopsided keyboard because a
| few people for some reason do data entry on a laptop
| keyboard.
| JSR_FDED wrote:
| > It's far less capable of running intensive tasks
|
| The latest reviews are showing that's not really the case
| Mawr wrote:
| > ...at this price point there are plenty of alternatives for
| laptops with better performance and specs.
|
| Laughable. Seriously, how long has it been since the M1 Air
| dropped? And we're still this clueless?
|
| > For example, you can get a 15.6" Ryzen 7 5700U laptop with
| 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD for less than the "unbeatable" price of
| the Neo:
|
| Awesome spec dump. Now, what's the real life usage battery life
| of that laptop like? Oh? Yeah, thought so.
|
| Nobody buys a list of specs, they buy a set of capabilities.
| And the Neo is capable of supporting normal usage for 12h+ on
| battery. Go ahead and link me some alternative laptops that can
| do that, with comparable performance of course -- which is on
| par or better than the original M1 Air mind you.
|
| Killer move by Apple, and I'm shocked there's still so much
| ignorance around.
| tim333 wrote:
| The Windows ones sound good for running games. Wouldn't suit
| me as I don't game on them and want battery life for reading.
| lostmsu wrote:
| https://www.staples.com/hp-omnibook-5-16-2k-laptop-
| copilot-p...
|
| I own one. It lives long enough not to get bothered by
| charging.
| commandersaki wrote:
| Looked up more info on this laptop, my cursory thoughts:
|
| plastic chassis: gross. keyboard with a numberpad: yuck no
| inverted-T for arrow keys: yuck limited size trackpad, not
| to mention a PC trackpad: yuck display looks good and is
| matte: nice fans: gross usb-c (charging) port is not the
| first port in the array: yuck supplied charger brick: yuck,
| why not something a bit more modern
|
| But at least it seems to have comparable battery life to
| the neo.
| lostmsu wrote:
| > plastic chassis: gross.
|
| I don't care, it holds, it is not slippery (a huge
| problem with my current phone with metal body). What
| exactly is better with metal?
|
| > keyboard with a numberpad: yuck
|
| I would prefer one without, but that's just a matter of
| preference here. The layout is good. In fact, it's the
| keyboard that mostly makes me feel good whenever I use
| this laptop.
|
| > inverted-T for arrow keys: yuck
|
| In theory I agree, but for some reason that did not feel
| problematic on this particular keyboard.
|
| > limited size trackpad
|
| ?
|
| > not to mention a PC trackpad
|
| To each their own
|
| > fans: gross
|
| Never heard them, not even sure they are there.
|
| > usb-c (charging) port is not the first port in the
| array
|
| Sounds like a minor issue
|
| > supplied charger brick: yuck, why not something a bit
| more modern
|
| I prefer "bricks" on the wire to "bricks" on the plug
| like Apple does because it does not take 10 slots on a
| power strip.
| kasabali wrote:
| > 15.6"
|
| eww
| brewdad wrote:
| The target customer for this wants a laptop that will live in
| a dedicated space and rarely/never travel, except to the
| couch. 15 inches is perfect for that.
| commandersaki wrote:
| Ah the classic NIAKUN, what we expect from brand name quality:
| awesome keyboard layout (love a number pad that smashes into
| the arrow keys), great resolution (1920x1080 so good for
| 2026!). I'm sure the speakers are state of the art for the form
| factor, gets amazing battery life (love me max 4-5 hrs on
| moderate usage), and of course can't forget the plastic body.
|
| I'm sure a similar story can be said about the HP.
|
| If you didn't detect the sarcasm, a laptop is much more than
| cpu, memory, and storage; it'd be short-sighted to only fixate
| on this trio. PC laptops compromise on pretty much everything
| and usually do everything poorly, including CPU (since apple
| silicon Macs are much better performance per watt).
|
| Then there's the whole aspect of Apple support for both
| hardware AND software, something no PC vendor can provide.
| glimshe wrote:
| I was about to say the same thing. How can people compare
| Apple to a NIAKUN throwaway laptop? I'm no Mac fanboy - I use
| Windows, Linux and Mac at home. I find MacOS somewhat
| annoying, but as a Internet browsing laptop, I'd much rather
| pay for the Mac Neo than "NIAKUN".
|
| PS: I wrote this on my Macbook Air.
| drcongo wrote:
| I wouldn't even let someone connect that thing to my home
| network, let alone pay money for one.
| foldr wrote:
| > It's far less capable of running intensive tasks than any of
| Apple's M-series chips or any moderately powered Intel or AMD
| processor."
|
| This is false. The A18 Pro has much better single core
| performance than the M1 and slightly better multi core
| performance. Most people would see no noticeable benefit to a
| faster CPU. Especially with a fanless design, the additional
| cores of a comparable M-series chip would give you better burst
| performance for some workloads, but possibly not much
| improvement in sustained performance.
| starkparker wrote:
| > The A18 Pro has much better single core performance than
| the M1 and slightly better multi core performance.
|
| For the first few minutes of sustained use. Then it drops
| like a rock: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2026/03/apple-
| macbook-neo-re...
|
| > In extended single-core benchmarks, performance drops to
| the 3.7-to-3.5 GHz range within a minute or so, and they drop
| to the 2.9-to-3.2 GHz range after about five minutes. Both
| the M1 Air and the new M5 Air (4.46 GHz) are able to sustain
| their peak clock speeds indefinitely in single-core mode.
| adolph wrote:
| I wonder if the new displays with A19 processors have
| better heat dissipation. (and if they can be modified to
| run full iOS instead of the displayOS variant)
|
| https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-apple-studio-
| displa...
| foldr wrote:
| That's a fair point above sustained multicore, but this is
| probably the right tradeoff for this class of device. Few
| people are regularly maxing out all of their cores for more
| than a few minutes at a time, and the people who are doing
| that probably weren't going to buy Apple's budget $600
| MacBook anyway. The increase in single core performance
| over the M1 is much more valuable to most users.
| starkparker wrote:
| That's probably true, although once again it's the
| sustained _single core_ performance that suffers.
| Statements like "the A18 Pro has much better single core
| performance than the M1" without this context still
| aren't true.
| foldr wrote:
| The A18's sustained single core performance is about the
| same as the M1's and the "burst" performance is quite a
| bit better. So I'd say it clearly has better single core
| performance overall.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Single thread performance on the Neo (important to web
| browsing) is literally 2-3 times faster than those laptops
| GeekyBear wrote:
| PC Magazine came to the same conclusion:
|
| > Apple pulled off what I thought wasn't possible. The MacBook
| Neo is poised to set the budget-laptop world on fire as a $599
| system that's better-built and sharper than anything else at or
| below its price.
|
| https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/apple-macbook-neo
|
| Similar to the Verge:
|
| > even the cheapest MacBook Neo is good enough to be the go-to
| Apple laptop for a lot of people. Actually, not just the go-to
| Apple laptop; the Neo's hardware simultaneously embarrasses an
| entire class of affordable (and even far pricier) Windows
| laptops, as well as just about any Chromebook. And the thing runs
| on an iPhone chip.
|
| https://www.theverge.com/tech/891741/apple-macbook-neo-a18-p...
| dang wrote:
| (We've since merged the threads, but the pcmag.com link is in
| the toptext above)
| cromulent wrote:
| I understand the need to join the conversations about the
| same topic. Thanks for keeping the URLs separate. Reading
| Gruber's long form considered article is very different to
| reading some second hand Asus executive "shock" comments.
| GeekyBear wrote:
| The comment was originally in a thread discussing Engadget's
| take:
|
| > MacBook Neo review: Apple puts every $600 Windows PC to
| shame
|
| https://www.engadget.com/computing/laptops/macbook-neo-
| revie...
| shrubble wrote:
| It's really an iPad running MacOS instead of iOS; the question is
| whether people want that.
|
| I'm not the target market since I require Linux compatibility but
| I realize that is not a necessity in the market.
| musicale wrote:
| The iPad has a touchscreen, supports Apple Pencil, etc. but the
| observation that the iPad has been Apple's "budget" computing
| platform for a while is spot on. It is interesting that they
| have reformulated it into a Mac laptop (and also that A-series
| iPhone chips offer M1-class performance.)
|
| Fortunately/unfortunately for Apple, the M1 MacBook Air from
| 2020 is still a great laptop.
| exidy wrote:
| I don't think it's a useful distinction. I wouldn't describe my
| car as "really a vacuum cleaner", despite them both having an
| electric motor.
|
| The form factor is the defining characteristic, because that
| informs _how_ people use it. The CPU does not.
| recursive wrote:
| Really an iPad running MacOS instead of iOS, with a built-in
| keyboard and touchpad, without a touch screen, multiple ports.
|
| In other words, indistinguishable from a laptop by virtually
| everyone. I don't even know what difference you might be
| referring to.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| This feels like the first time Apple's walled garden approach has
| paid off in the desktop arena.
|
| With a cheaper Windows alternative to the MacBook Neo, your
| options are inferior battery life with AMD 64, or Windows Arm's
| inferior compatibility.
|
| I doubt Microsoft is holding developers hands when transitioning
| to Arm the way that Apple does. Not to mention they've been using
| their own chips.
| happymellon wrote:
| > I doubt Microsoft is holding developers hands when
| transitioning to Arm the way that Apple does.
|
| While this is key it has nothing to do with the walled garden
| approach, and everything to do with Microsoft's contempt for
| users of its platforms.
| operatingthetan wrote:
| People may not be very happy with recent UI changes in Tahoe
| but it's still another universe compared to some the clunky
| Windows 2000-ish stuff still in Windows 11.
| perfmode wrote:
| I think what you're describing is vertical integration rather
| than the walled garden specifically. The walled garden is the
| App Store restrictions, iMessage lock-in, that kind of thing.
| What made the Neo possible is that Apple controls the silicon,
| the OS, the firmware, and the industrial design as a single
| unit. They could put a phone chip in a laptop form factor and
| have it feel coherent because there's no seam between the
| hardware and software teams.
|
| The distinction matters because it changes what the lesson is
| for the rest of the industry. You don't need a walled garden to
| compete here. You need to own enough of the stack that you can
| make aggressive tradeoffs (like shipping 8GB and an A18 Pro)
| without everything falling apart at the integration boundaries.
| Microsoft can't do that because they don't make the hardware.
| Dell and Lenovo can't do that because they don't make the OS.
| Qualcomm can't do that because they don't control the software
| ecosystem.
|
| The one company that could theoretically pull this off is
| Google with ChromeOS on their own Tensor chips, and the fact
| that they haven't is probably the more interesting question
| than why Asus is shocked.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| >The one company that could theoretically pull this off is
| Google with ChromeOS on their own Tensor chips, and the fact
| that they haven't is probably the more interesting question
| than why Asus is shocked.
|
| Successful Chromebook's have always been the throwaway $200
| models. Higher end ones like the Pixelbook served more as
| flagship devices to prove they could do more but were never
| really marketed.
|
| I don't think Google's gonna make a souped up Chromebook
| because they know their place. They're entirely internet
| dependent devices with little brand recognition and no
| serious software. The Neo serves somewhere in between that.
| They have the brand recognition and MacOS.
| fragmede wrote:
| > no serious software.
|
| What software do you want to be considered serious? With
| the addition of Linux/Crostini, there's 3D modeling, CAD,
| and NLE video editing and compilers and everything else.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| All the professional software that's capable of running
| in the MacBook Neo, you know Final Cut etc.
| pjmlp wrote:
| All these PC can't compete reviews are based on US prices,
| outside it is ridiculous expensive for a 8 GB laptop.
| keyle wrote:
| Note that 8GB of ram on a Mac plays out a lot more different
| than 8GB on a PC.
|
| I work professionally on a Macbook Air 16GB now and I have
| quite a few docker images and services running bare metal, +
| browser, vscode etc. on top. Not a problem until I start
| loading up some LLMs.
|
| The paging works wonderfully well; an advantage of everything
| being fused.
|
| If anything, I'm much more bound by the CPU limitations and the
| eco-cores than the memory.
|
| On a PC, I wouldn't think about less than 32GB for a dev pc.
|
| If I had a fulltime gig programming C, I'd even say I could
| work on this A14 8GB device. Why not? It's as powerful as a 10
| year old powerful machine; probably. Or in that ballpark.
| pjmlp wrote:
| PC work just fine with 16 GB, that is coping with Apple
| limitations.
|
| https://discussions.apple.com/thread/255765423?sortBy=rank
|
| Why on Earth do I need a 32 GB PC?!?
|
| Turbo C also worked just fine with 640 KB in MS-DOS, but then
| again MS-DOS wasn't full of Electron crap.
| foldr wrote:
| There are lots of reviews on YouTube of people demoing the
| performance of the Neo in typical non-power-user usage
| scenarios (multiple apps, lots of browser tabs, etc.) It
| works perfectly fine for typical consumer usage.
| Rohansi wrote:
| > The paging works wonderfully well; an advantage of
| everything being fused.
|
| I think it's more of a combination of 1) lower baseline usage
| by macOS and 2) your swap is guaranteed to be on a fast SSD
| (1.5+ GB/s read/write).
|
| Also when you buy a budget PC they cut back on _everything_ ,
| while you get roughly the same SoC across the board for Mac
| (give or take a few cores). There are absolutely horrid CPUs,
| GPUs, and SSDs still being released today! If you cut your
| budget too much you can get a slow E-core only CPU with a no
| name SSD that's barely faster than a HDD.
|
| Hopefully the MacBook Neo puts pressure on manufacturers to
| do better.
| tim333 wrote:
| I've had an 8GB M1 since they came out and had almost no
| problems with memory shortage. The only thing is Firefox
| sometimes gets in a loop and takes up 20GB+ doing nothing much
| and you have to close it but that's not really the laptop's
| fault. You can have programs use >8GB because it swaps to the
| SSD very well.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Almost no problem seems that there is indeed a problem.
| ZiiS wrote:
| I love Firefox but my 32GB MBP and 64GB desktop have both
| had it run out of memory.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Learn to use bookmarks instead of leaving tabs open.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Eastern europe here. At mobile operator that offers laptops for
| 2 year no interest loans. The only laptops that are cheaper
| than Neo are essentially atom garbage with crappy screens. And
| those that cost about the same are also 8gb ones.
| jsheard wrote:
| I can't be the only one who remembers the celebration 18 months
| ago when Apple finally stopped selling Macs with 8GB of
| memory... only for 8GB to suddenly be excused again when the
| Neo arrived. Perhaps it's not the same people but the general
| vibe is giving me whiplash.
| kreco wrote:
| 8GB is aweful. If you don't do a single task.
|
| But nice for Apple. Millions of replacement on the Neo 16GB
| release next year I guess.
| jsheard wrote:
| My money is on 12GB in the second gen since that's what the
| A19 Pro has, and it would still conveniently differentiate
| from the other MacBooks with at least 16GB.
| pjmlp wrote:
| That one I would find more acceptable.
| bob1029 wrote:
| Looks like the PC laptop market is going to have to stop being
| bad on purpose. I hope this causes significant pain for vendors
| like Dell, Microsoft and Asus.
|
| I don't see any way they can get out of this situation without
| seriously improving the UX of their products. Windows itself is
| likely implicated here too.
| pupppet wrote:
| Microsoft will respond to this by furiously adding more garbage
| to Windows.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| "We need to put Copilot into more places!" - Satya Nadella most
| likely
| bdbdbdb wrote:
| I've yet to meet anyone who wants AI added to anything. If they
| released a version of windows+office tomorrow that was
| "guaranteed free of AI" it would be their top seller
| ryandrake wrote:
| But, then all Microsoft's top managers, who apparently have
| bonuses based on how much AI is shoved down our throats,
| wouldn't get those bonuses. Nobody's cares whether or not
| something is a top seller because their incentives are
| obviously aligned toward cramming AI.
| commandersaki wrote:
| Needs more javascript for native functions in the OS.
| NoPicklez wrote:
| As someone who buys Asus motherboards when he builds PC's, it
| hasn't been a shock for me as an owner of a Macbook for the last
| 18 years.
|
| I've been of the firm opinion for a very long time that Macbook's
| are the best productivity laptops and now even more so once Apple
| moved from Intel to their own M chips. Their entry level Macbook
| before the Neo you could buy and it would be a laptop that would
| see you for many many years.
| vrighter wrote:
| all of my normal pcs served me well for many many years. They
| don't get slower naturally, it was windows getting ever more
| bloated. I put linux on an 8 year old computer and it just
| flies again
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Fully agree. When I have to use Windows from time to time,
| I'm always surprised by how laggy the cursor feels even on
| hardware that can do 8K VR just fine.
| jahnu wrote:
| 2016-2019 was an awful blip but otherwise I agree
| rf15 wrote:
| Except for the bit that immediately killed it for us in the
| office: only one external display. Even if you close the lid.
|
| I dream of the day I can kick windows into the next bin, but this
| is the one thing that the Neo fails hard on, all other
| compromises would've made this a great remote dev machine.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| does the ~$400 consumer PC market -- which is what theyre
| aiming at -- need multiple external displays?
|
| my mom _might_ need a 2nd monitor, but probably not. that 's
| who they're chasing.
|
| my crappy business dell work computer can only do one too, but
| it comes with a docking station to do real multi-monitor
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| IMO the consumer PC industry is near an existential crisis. The
| big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs and models
| - it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell laptops from the
| same release year differ. The exact same specs will be in two
| different chassis designs.
|
| Additionally, you can't count on the basic being correct. It
| takes a hour of research to know if the trackpad is not-awful,
| keyboard doesn't suck, and display isn't a 300nits POS unusable
| even in a bright room.
|
| You want the same performance as a MacBook Air without one of
| these fatal flaws? You'll hand to spend $1500+ anyway so you save
| nothing. Then the OS is full of ads and pre-installed garbage
| "gaming-optimization-tool" or driver tools taking up 99% of a
| single core while being riddled with security holes.
| hutattedonmyarm wrote:
| I recently helped a friend picking a new laptop. Just going
| through the options at the websites of manufacturers was a
| nightmare. Huge amount of choices, shitty filtering, separated
| into multiple product lines were I often enough had no idea
| what separated the lines from each other
| drcongo wrote:
| If they're your friend, why didn't you just tell them to get
| a Mac?
| gabrielhidasy wrote:
| Why would I inflict that to my friends?
| retired wrote:
| 15 years ago this comment would have been a troll.
|
| Nowadays it's solid advice. The current Mac line-up is a
| step ahead of the competition. App compatibility is hardly
| an issue anymore with the exception of some very niche
| software.
| ecshafer wrote:
| Niche software, and almost all video games.
| drcongo wrote:
| A laptop is for getting work done, I'm not a child.
| skibidithink wrote:
| OS X / macOS has been ahead of Windows for a long time
| for anyone who lives in a web browser.
| ryandvm wrote:
| Cute, and while I will agree that Apple hardware is
| generally superior or at least an excellent value, and OS X
| is miles beyond Windows in usability, I can't in good
| conscience recommend a Mac on principle.
|
| They impose obsessive control over their walled garden,
| constant pressure to use Apple ecosystem products, and they
| are staunchly opposed to interoperability regardless of it
| being an obviously anti-consumer tactical moat.
|
| Buying a Mac in spite of such anti-consumer behavior
| reminds me of voting for a bad person because you like
| their policies.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| As opposed to Microsoft, the good guys right now? I don't
| see how incessant privacy violations, selling your data,
| and general shovelware behavior of Windows 11 is better.
| In many ways, it's much worse in my view.
| bell-cot wrote:
| > voting for a bad person because you like their
| policies.
|
| These days, you're lucky if you get to pick from "Bad",
| "Very Bad", and "Worst".
|
| (BTW, does Mr. Bad look like he'll competently implement
| and honestly administer his policies? 'Cause without
| those, "good" policies ain't worth squat):
| retired wrote:
| A Mac isn't really a walled garden though.
|
| You don't even need an Apple account to use one. Unlike
| Windows.
| sib wrote:
| >> voting for a bad person because you like their
| policies
|
| Is it better to
|
| (1) vote for a bad person whose policies you believe are
| correct
|
| or
|
| (2) vote for a good person whose policies you believe are
| wrong?
|
| I'd pick (1) every time. (Sure, I'd love a good person
| whose policies are right...)
| mastermage wrote:
| Inarguably one of the great things done by apple is the rather
| easily overseeable models. And no mattter the processing power
| in the models you get a rather great experience from the
| haptics, audio and visual in all of them.
|
| And I would be very much in the Apple Camp for personal
| laptops, if Gaming was in any way shape or reasonable. Thats
| the only downside of apple. They tried to fix this before but
| that really did not work out.
| remuskaos wrote:
| I've only recently gotten a MacBook after using Linux Pretty
| much exclusively for over twenty years. And I have to say I'm
| really surprised how much I like it. For gaming it's all
| right, but not great. Factorio works but not much else.
|
| But for that I still have my Bazzite or Steam Deck. I really
| encourage you to try Linux for gaming. It's incredible what
| Valve has achieved on that front.
| mastermage wrote:
| Oh i have a steam deck and am in the process of migrating
| to linux latest when Win 12 hits. Just some problems with
| some software like Fusion 360. I do like Linux alot.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| It really is a pity that there's no working business
| model around open source maintenance for software like
| wine. I'm the guy who fixed the wine bug that blocked new
| iTunes versions, because I like to keep my music in
| iTunes for easy iPhone sync. I also have Fusion 360
| working flawlessly in wine, but the setup process
| required multiple sessions stepping manually with a
| debugger to avoid crashes and packaging that as scripts
| and/or just documenting all the little issues and their
| fixes and keeping that up to date with fusion updates
| would be serious work. So nobody is doing it.
| jitl wrote:
| CrossOver sells WINE and WINE consulting; I've been a
| happy customer on and off for about 20 years. If you're
| bothered by open source WINE i'd say give them a shot. In
| my experience it's worth the $70 or whatever to get a
| well-paved GUI path and support.
| mdhen wrote:
| https://github.com/winapps-org/winapps
|
| fusion360 is supported.
| deaux wrote:
| > Factorio works but not much else.
|
| Currently looking at the top 20 Steam games [0] for today,
| excluding non-games like Wallpaper Engine. 8 out of 20 work
| on Mac natively. Out of the remaining 12, 3 of them work
| with Crossover, so that makes it 11 out of 20. Almost all
| of the remaining 9 are competitive FPS games that don't
| work due to their kernel-level anticheat, almost all of
| which AFAIK won't work on Linux for the same reason.
|
| [0] https://steamdb.info/charts/
| officeplant wrote:
| At the same time with effort they can run a surprising amount
| of games. Heroic Launcher makes it a bit easier to wrangle
| the game dev toolkit (riding off the back of work from the
| whisky dev before they quit dev work from all the complaining
| users).
|
| I had Cyberpunk 2077 running on a M1 Macbook Air almost two
| years before the MacPort came at a very playable 30fps (900p
| Medium settings). Although I did have to use thermal pads to
| heatsink it to my metal laptop stand and added a slow
| spinning fan for good measure.
|
| It's not perfect, but I've also spent a lot of time only
| buying games with no road blocks to running on Mac/Linux.
| fl0ki wrote:
| Try Sikarugir for PC gaming on macOS. It runs everything I've
| cared to try, with little or no tweaking.
|
| https://github.com/Sikarugir-App/Sikarugir
| rramadass wrote:
| > The big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs
| and models - it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell
| laptops from the same release year differ. The exact same specs
| will be in two different chassis designs.
|
| > Additionally, you can't count on the basic being correct. It
| takes a hour of research to know if ...
|
| Truer words were never spoken!
|
| I gave up on PCs years ago because of this very reason. The
| irony is that it is well known from psychology that giving
| consumers too many choices is actually counter-productive. Most
| people do not have the time nor the knowledge to research and
| configure their "perfect" PC. They just know their usecase and
| want the best for their money.
|
| I had hoped Microsoft Surface series would become the standard
| in the Windows world (i still have a 1st gen model) but they
| don't seem to read the market.
| mmcnl wrote:
| I had high hopes for Surface as well, but the pricing is
| ridiculous. The Surface Laptop 7 is more expensive than a
| MacBook Air, with the added benefit of having worse battery
| life and performance. Pricing hasn't come down in almost 2
| years either. Availability is almost 0, I've never seen one
| in real life.
| cromka wrote:
| > It takes a hour of research to know if the trackpad is not-
| awful
|
| This, so much this! I run Asahi on M1 Air but wanted to upgrade
| to something with fuller Linux support. After trying Thinkpad
| T14s, trackpad quality has rosen to my attention, something I
| never thought about before. Turns out glass, haptic trackpads
| are still only available in probably about a dozen laptops on
| the market and it's not easy to actually know which ones are
| these!
| ZiiS wrote:
| To me clear the Neo dose not have a glass, haptic trackpad.
| selectodude wrote:
| It's glass but not haptic. Honestly the fact that they
| figured out how to make the entire pad clickable without
| haptics is pretty impressive.
| philistine wrote:
| Their trackpads were that way since the move to aluminium
| for the chassis until the release of the 2017 Macbook.
|
| Apple had solved the issue around 2012 and still PC
| manufacturer refuse to spend on trackpad quality.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Not really, not exactly. The older "clicky" MacBook
| trackpads couldn't quite be "clicked" anywhere. They were
| levered at the top of the trackpad, so if you tried to
| click on the very top edge then they wouldn't really
| click. Anywhere else, it felt fine, but maybe the top
| inch didn't feel good. Not really a problem in normal use
| cause most people don't try to click on the very top
| edge, but perhaps this new trackpad fixes that (I haven't
| tested one myself). The current gen haptic ones have the
| same exact click feeling no matter where you press, of
| course.
| dhosek wrote:
| That's because PC manufacturers compete on spec sheets
| and how much does the trackpad suck isn't one of the
| numbers on the spec sheet so they don't care.
| duskwuff wrote:
| The early aluminum MacBook systems used a hinged
| trackpad. The "click" was a physical button under the
| trackpad, and you couldn't click on the top of the
| trackpad (because the hinge was on that side).
|
| The MacBook Neo is a return to physical clicking, but
| they're using some sort of new mechanism which allows
| clicking anywhere.
| bigyabai wrote:
| You can buy a Magic Trackpad and pair it with your Thinkpad
| no problem. It's much more comfortable to use it side-by-side
| with your keyboard, most of the time I'm reaching for the
| Trackpoint if my hands are on home row.
| mikestew wrote:
| _You can buy a Magic Trackpad and pair it with your
| Thinkpad no problem._
|
| Yeah, that works great on the bus. It's one more thing to
| tote around to meetings, but hey, at least I didn't have to
| buy a MacBook!
|
| Or I could just buy a Mac and not have to resort to hacks
| to get a decent trackpad.
| bigyabai wrote:
| If I use one of my Macs then I have to resort to hacks to
| get a decent OS. A crappy trackpad is ~10-20x less
| annoying than a hostile OEM, at least for my non-bus-
| based work.
|
| In any case, my response was to cromka's comment and our
| shared dissatisfaction with Asahi.
| cromka wrote:
| I never said I am dissatisfied! To the contrary, it's way
| better than my Thinkpad even with Linux. I just miss the
| fingerprint scanner..
| prmoustache wrote:
| I don't think you need a Mac to get a decent trackpad.
| You need one maybe to have a great one.
|
| That is the main difference to me. I hate crappy
| trackpads but the ones on my 2 thinkpads are good enough
| for the nomad/mobile use. That doesn't mean I wouldn't
| prefer the one on a Mac but I wouldn't want to suffer a
| hostile, OS and lack of repairability just to get a
| better trackpad.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| I exclusively use the trackpoint on thinkpads, to the point
| that I disable the trackpads in the BIOS or disconnect them
| from the motherboard entirely.
| cromka wrote:
| I used to use track points before moving on to Mac. After I
| tried moving back to Thinkpad I couldn't stomach the track
| point anymore , it's just too imprecise and I think it's
| because we use way higher resolutions nowadays with many
| more densely packed UI elements to click on.
| ryandrake wrote:
| > it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell laptops from
| the same release year differ.
|
| Don't forget, one is going to be the "Business" version and the
| other identical one is going to be the "Consumer" version. God
| help whoever buys a "business" category laptop for personal
| use. The world will come to an end!
| syntheticnature wrote:
| Or, in actuality, the Dell business model will be designed
| for repairability. I tend to always advise friends who want
| Windows/Linux laptops to buy from the business lines,
| especially if a 1- or 2- year refurb will work.
| softfalcon wrote:
| This... so much this.
|
| > too many SKUs and models - it takes a paragraph to figure out
| how 2 Dell laptops from the same release year differ.
|
| And yet, I just watched a YouTube video where a "PC guy" was
| like, "adding the Neo just completely confuses the Apple
| product line. Are we heading towards having too many Apple
| options that confuse the buyer here?"
|
| I get it, other than price, the Neo and Air are a bit confusing
| product wise. Have they looked at how Asus, Lenovo, and Dell
| are doing their products though? It's absolutely wild the
| disparity between PC and Apple for laptops.
|
| I run both PC's and Mac devices in our house, we use what fills
| the job. Recommending PC laptops for family members feels like
| a total crapshoot though. Every time, I do all I can to find
| the right device for their needs and there are just so many
| trade-offs. Maybe I get all the right specs, ensure it doesn't
| thermal throttle, keyboard/trackpad are A-OK... but the webcam
| is trash. Ooof... now Mom is complaining about how no one can
| see her properly at bridge club call.
|
| I brought up how the Neo might do to the PC industry what the
| Air did to Ultrabooks back in the day. The amount of hate I got
| on YouTube/Verge with copy-paste, "hahaha, wut, with 8 GB of
| RAM? lmao, lol, you Apple bot?!" was expected, but also
| disappointing. There is clearly a market segment happy to
| continue to put up with the mess that Dell/Lenovo are selling
| (anything but a Mac).
|
| Wild how tribal we are to our corporate computer overlords.
|
| The era where something like Framework with its fully
| customizable, repairable, modular laptops becomes the standard
| can't come soon enough.
|
| For the time being, I'll let Apple/PC continue to duke it out.
| Hope some competition helps in the long run. :shrug:
| hackyhacky wrote:
| > I get it, other than price, the Neo and Air are a bit
| confusing product wise. Have they looked at how Asus, Lenovo,
| and Dell are doing their products though? It's absolutely
| wild the disparity between PC and Apple for laptops.
|
| Yep.
|
| I'm a long-time ThinkPad user, but I have no idea how
| Lenovo's ThinkPad T series differs from the ThinkPad E series
| or ThinkPad L series or ThinkPad X series, and their website
| certainly isn't going to tell me. I keep on buying T series
| because I'm honestly afraid of trying anything else.
|
| To say nothing of Lenovo's non-ThinkPad laptop brands,
| including Ideapad, Legion, Yoga, ThinkBook (!), and LOQ.
|
| I really don't know what laptop to recommend to a friend. One
| friend showed me specs for an Asus they found at Best Buy,
| and it looked okay, so I said "It's probably fine." Turns out
| it was shoddily made and overpriced: they had to sent it back
| not once but twice because the wifi and then the camera
| didn't work out of the box, then a few months later the hinge
| broke.
|
| I am not a Mac fan, but it's easy to recommend them because
| you at least know they are universally well-built machines.
| officeplant wrote:
| > I have no idea how Lenovo's ThinkPad T series differs
| from ...
|
| My personal rundown and how they get assigned:
|
| E - Educational / Lower office personnel spec
|
| L - Office personnel you hate spec, but don't offer the E
| because they might complain.
|
| T - Give this to all the technicians because they can't
| take care of anything and it will survive typically.
|
| P - Give this to the engineers who believe having an RTX
| gpu will actually help them so that they are happy, and to
| the CAD operators who actually need it.
|
| X - Smaller/Ultrabooks before the term got started, now
| somewhat a blurry line because T series have gotten
| lighter/thinner. But the X1 Carbon sure is a great way to
| spend a ton of money for a light laptop when a T-series
| would suffice.
|
| Personally I stick to older used X series (currently x250)
| because I just enjoy a small laptop and they are dirt cheap
| now.
| mmcnl wrote:
| This still doesn't tell me how they differ. What are the
| factual objective measurable differences between E/L/T/P?
| hackyhacky wrote:
| Spoiler: they are all identical hardware, but marketed
| differently.
| Giefo6ah wrote:
| I was assigned an E14 once. Compared to a T14:
|
| The case is all thick ABS.
|
| It weighs like 2.4 kg, and the weight is unbalanced.
|
| The USB-C charge only works at 20V, nothing less.
|
| While charging it overheats and spins up the fans.
|
| It came with a TN screen with terrible viewing angles,
| that could not be used in a brightly lit room. I didn't
| use the laptop for two months while I waited for a
| replacement screen from aliexpress.
|
| Keyboard is much thinner, the trackpoint drifts easily.
|
| Camera quality is worse, somehow it cannot handle sun-lit
| scenes. Microphone and speakers are similar to the T14.
|
| It stopped receiving firmware updates after two years.
|
| It uses about 0.5 W while suspended, so its tiny 48 Wh
| battery typically doesn't last the weekend with the lid
| closed.
|
| The motherboard has design issues, a missing protection
| diode in the headphone jack microphone input ended up
| frying the CPU due to a ground loop. Meanwhile the T14
| has eaten the same ground loop and even a 48V passive PoE
| in an accident and dealt with it by rebooting. A T450
| from 2015 is still running.
| mystifyingpoi wrote:
| Interesting, I own an E14 and it charges with 12V PD
| profile, stock ugreen powerbank. Maybe they differ across
| models?
| eldaisfish wrote:
| Fine, but how is anyone supposed to divine all that
| nuance from a single letter?
|
| As much as I hate Apple, they really do have product
| names down to a science.
| fainpul wrote:
| I think I got it:
|
| - E is for economy
|
| - L is for loser
|
| - T is for tank
|
| - P is for power
|
| - X is for executive
| thewebguyd wrote:
| > "hahaha, wut, with 8 GB of RAM? lmao, lol, you Apple bot?!"
|
| And it would seem they never learn either. I saw the same
| comments when the M1 Air came out, then they quickly shut up
| when people were pushing those little base model airs well
| beyond what anyone thought they were capable of.
|
| The same thing is happening with the Neo now. It feels like
| an M1 moment all over again for the PC OEM industry.
|
| If you aren't a gamer, there is zero reason at this point to
| consider any other _laptop_ besides a macbook. Apple now has
| one for every price point. This neo is going to destroy the
| consumer PC space. Dell, HP, Acer are probably sweating right
| now.
| philistine wrote:
| They're not sweating at all; they'll do what they always
| do. They'll release a new model to _compete_ in time for
| Christmas 2026. They 'll call it the ASUS Nuevo X856G-L or
| the Acer Nova 9500X or the Alienware Morpheus ZS and that
| will be it. They won't even consolidate their line at the
| 600$ price point; just one more model, bro!
|
| Their sales will continue tapering off and they'll do what
| they always do; reduce investments, fire some designers and
| engineers, keep old models out even longer, and move out of
| Apple's way by selling even more 380$ laptops for 400$
| while Apple siphons even more profits by selling a 400$
| laptop at 600$.
|
| That's how PCs die.
| izacus wrote:
| Your comment is equally generalizing and being facetious
| like the ones you're criticizing.
|
| These brand fanboy wars you're all playing are just
| pathetic.
| jclardy wrote:
| Neo and Air are quite simple when looking at it from the
| bottom up. Air is the "nice" Neo for basically $500 more.
| Backlit keyboard, MagSafe, Thunderbolt 4, M5, way faster SSD
| speeds, double the RAM, larger display, Force Touch trackpad.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| Yeah, for a while my favorite laptop was the Surface Book 2.
| Decent specs, does what I want it to. Then Microsoft started
| going through "Marketing Driven Development" for Windows and
| its just been downhill for my experience with that laptop. It's
| not just the marketing trash, the OS has gotten noticeably slow
| despite me keeping it pretty vanilla. It's downright insulting.
| As for my desktops, I just smoosh over Windows and install
| Linux over now, I don't care about anything on Windows enough
| to keep it. I can play all my games on Linux just fine. I can
| do all my dev stuff on Linux too.
| whycome wrote:
| lol i just posted about how I was also scorned by MS/Surface
| Book 2. What a potentially amazing device. I hated that if
| you were playing a game or doing many video encodes, the
| charger (100w?) could not provide enough power -- so your
| battery drained. And make sure you don't let your base drain
| completely after being stored for a while -- the main
| computer won't be able to recognize it to even charge it
| again. And these were all known faults with no solution for
| the consumer other than to "buy the newer model." And you
| could never disable the damn windows update nag screens
| entirely. And you knew that you'd lose functionality if you
| upgraded something.
| brewdad wrote:
| I put Linux on an old Surface tablet. Works better than
| Windows on the same device. The only thing that isn't working
| under Linux is the camera. Built in extra privacy as a bonus!
| AnishLaddha wrote:
| an underrated reason for the decline in windows is that it
| went from a core product focus to being crowded out. I
| wouldn't be surprised if azure, sharepoint, office 365,
| devices, GH/Linkedin, bing/copilot, etc are all more
| important to msft leadership than windows.
| timcobb wrote:
| > The big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs
| and models
|
| and as far as I know, they do this on purpose!
| orbital-decay wrote:
| What's the purpose?
| everdrive wrote:
| This is my advice anyone asks me about a laptop. The specs
| don't matter (at least if you're asking me, it means you don't
| know computers and will mostly just use a web browser, and
| therefore nearly any specs on the market will be fine) and the
| things that do matter are just never on a spec sheet --
| keyboard, trackpad, speaker, screen quality. Some stuff won't
| be discovered until years later: for instance I had an Acer
| laptop in 2007 which was designed with insufficient cooling,
| and cooked its thermal paste in about a year or two. Once it
| was cooked, you couldn't play games or do anything intensive
| without rebooting the machine. I hadn't thought to research
| that issue since I figured cooling was a solved problem. But,
| I'm sure Acer saved a few dollars per unit. (and of course, the
| screen, trackpad, speaker (yes, singular!) and keyboard were
| all awful as well.)
| whilenot-dev wrote:
| I bought my last Acer around 2010 (Aspire 4820TG I think,
| good machine). Their notebooks were always on the cheaper
| side, where its price just sat right with the offered value.
| Cooling issues were always present and weren't a big problem
| as long as the machine was maintainable. Unfortunately
| maintainability in notebooks (and electronics in general) all
| changed around 2015-ish and from there on it was used
| ThinkPads only for me.
| basch wrote:
| Specs only really matter to many relative to battery life. A
| higher specced system may unnecessarily burn energy.
| Someone wrote:
| > IMO the consumer PC industry is near an existential crisis.
| The big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs and
| models -
|
| I see your point, but as a counterexample, look at the TV
| industry, at PC monitors, at washing machines, etc. There
| manufacturers have, for decades, created SKUs left and right,
| sometimes only so that a large dealer can offer to match lowest
| prices because no other dealer has access to the same SKU.
|
| > it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell laptops from
| the same release year differ. The exact same specs will be in
| two different chassis designs.
|
| I don't know how they do things nowadays, but it used to be the
| case that the same SKU didn't even guarantee you the same
| hardware. Two machines of the same order could even be slightly
| different, requiring different drivers.
| pxeboot wrote:
| > I don't know how they do things nowadays, but it used to be
| the case that the same SKU didn't even guarantee you the same
| hardware. Two machines of the same order could even be
| slightly different, requiring different drivers.
|
| Apple is guilty of this too. For example, two iPhone's
| purchased at the same time can have displays from different
| manufactures, with noticeable quality differences between
| them.
| mikestew wrote:
| And unless you looked it up, you'd never noticed the
| difference (save comparing the two side-by-side). Whereas
| the cheap laptop requires one to know the difference so you
| can get the right driver, or other jackery because your
| WiFi card was a mid-year change. It reminds of me of mid-
| year production changes on cars, where VINs XXX-YYY need
| part number ZZZ, but VINs AAA-BBB need part number CCC.
| doubled112 wrote:
| What colour is the stripe on the spring? I can't look
| this up, not even by VIN.
|
| Wore off eight years ago. Can we guess?
| imglorp wrote:
| The epitome of "sku engineering" is mattresses, to keep
| consumers from comparison shopping. Retail HATES competition
| and informed shoppers.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Creating SKUs to avoid price matching is still just having
| one product coming out of the factory. It's just extra space
| in a database somewhere, so it costs nothing. The PC makers
| do have to create new physical products for each of those
| SKUs though. So it's apples and oranges here
| philistine wrote:
| Washing machines and the others don't have a company like
| Apple that is so differentiated that customers love their
| products so much they get to own something like 80% of the
| profits of the biggest personal computing market.
| andyclap2 wrote:
| I know a few Miele fanboys...
| whycome wrote:
| I had a Microsoft surface book 2. The provided charger could
| not provide enough power to the device when it was under heavy
| load and there was no higher charger option either. That shit
| should be illegal. And if the battery for the base/GPU died?
| You can't use the computer w the gpu even with a charger
| attached. The device itself could have been a dream and
| something i could have seen Apple doing : a touchscreen monitor
| that was also a computer and could be detached from the
| keyboard/gpu.
| pier25 wrote:
| For a couple of days I had a Surface Book 1 before returning
| it. The keyboard was really good but otherwise just a
| terrible device and experience.
|
| The touch screen was completely useless. Super laggy and
| sometimes the pen would still believe it was touching the
| screen even at like 1cm away. Windows 10 had almost no
| features for touch based interaction. It was just regular
| Windows with the same microscopic buttons for mouse.
|
| Plus a ton of display ghosting, GPU glitches, etc.
| keeda wrote:
| I still have a Surface Book 1 that I occasionaly use and I
| never encountered any of those issues. I even used it for
| some sketching and there was no lag or spurious touching
| from the pen. In fact, sketching was why I was "drawn" to
| it (heheh), largely influenced by this review:
| https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2015/11/16/surface-
| bo...
|
| My big problem with it is that the battery got swollen a
| few years ago, pushing out the bottom panel, and the device
| is way our of warranty to get it replaced. I'm waiting to
| find time to get that replaced.
| mikestew wrote:
| _Then the OS is full of ads and pre-installed garbage "gaming-
| optimization-tool" or driver tools taking up 99% of a single
| core while being riddled with security holes._
|
| But inevitably, some chucklehead comes along "wut? I can get
| <proceeds to type spec sheet> for half that! Have fun paying
| the apple tax, lol." Someone posted that on Ars yesterday, with
| a random Amazon link from Naikan, your name for quality
| computing. Or rather, "Naikan, your name for a quality
| trackpad, screen, and high-quality ABS case! Be sure to check
| out the $12,000 of 'bonus' software add-ons, no extra charge!".
| It's amazing someone can post that without the slightest hint
| of self-awareness.
| bigyabai wrote:
| > It's amazing someone can post that without the slightest
| hint of self-awareness.
|
| It's amazing that people attribute it to lacking self-
| awareness. You _can_ spend $400 on a laptop and have a
| perfectly fine experience. There are damn good Chromebooks in
| the $200-300 territory that I can genuinely recommend to
| people. If you just need to do your taxes or answer a Zoom
| call, why _would_ you get a Macbook Neo?
|
| macOS itself has been declining in quality since at least
| Mojave; people don't rave about it anymore. The Macbook Neo
| will 100% continue the trend of people showing up at Best Buy
| and comparing the Lenovo machine to the Mac that costs 3x as
| much. This will not sway the average Joe any more than the
| Macbook Air did. It's not even seriously competing with the
| iPad price bracket that might tempt students.
| rjrjrjrj wrote:
| Better integration with your iPhone is a very compelling
| reason to buy a Macbook Neo.
|
| The edu price is $499. Of course that seriously competes
| with the base iPad ($329 without keyboard).
| mikestew wrote:
| _You can spend $400 on a laptop and have a perfectly fine
| experience._
|
| Again, the trackpad will suck and the screen will be a dim,
| binned display panel, etc. If that works for you, fine, but
| that's not the conversation. The conversation everyone else
| is having is that your plastic $400 laptop with the
| bargain-bin components isn't the equivalent of $MACBOOK, no
| matter what the spec sheet says.
| jitl wrote:
| $300 to thread the eye of a needle through a field of
| dogshit, that can only run Google Chrome, or $500 for
| something entry level but very high quality that can run
| Google Chrome but also a vast library of well-designed
| native software that doesn't use garbage collection.
|
| macOS isn't the power user focused, extra high polish OS it
| was in Snow Leopard era, but it's still the best UX and
| energy management in operating systems out of the box
| xp84 wrote:
| > $500 for something entry level but very high quality
| that can run Google Chrome but also a vast library of
| well-designed native software
|
| A vast library? With 8GB of RAM and 256GB of storage
| you're not going to be running much, nor storing many
| files created by that library of software. Also, the only
| well-designed truly native software I have on my Mac,
| which I use daily, I can count on one hand. The vast
| majority of the apps most people use outside of "Pro"
| video and image editing, are in a browser, or are
| Electron apps that are exactly the same on a Mac as they
| are on a Chromebook.
|
| And those "media" people using Premiere or Final Cut
| would never buy a computer that maxes out at 512GB SSD.
|
| This is a pretty Chromebook substitute, which is cool,
| but it's obvious Apple doesn't want it to compete with
| the rest of their computers which start at $1,099.
| tock wrote:
| It's a M1 Macbook Air substitute with significantly
| better single core performance. Any comparison with a
| chromebook is just hilarious.
| bombcar wrote:
| If it runs 4 year old software then you'll likely have a
| "vast library" available.
|
| This machine is on-par with the "world breaking" top
| performance M1 laptops when they came out; now it is
| "insufficient".
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| >If you just need to do your taxes or answer a Zoom call,
| why would you get a Macbook Neo?
|
| Because it's a Mac. Maybe not to you, but to many people
| Apple signals luxury. It signals trust. You have an iPhone,
| an iWatch, and AirPods in your ears, why wouldn't you also
| buy a Mac? And at that price point, mom and dad don't think
| twice about buying one for the kids anymore where
| previously they might have gotten by without.
|
| >macOS itself has been declining in quality since at least
| Mojave; people don't rave about it anymore.
|
| Maybe because computing devices overall are just so good.
| The gains are to be had in services that are part of the
| Apple ecosystem, not the OS alone (for the most part).
|
| >The Macbook Neo will 100% continue the trend of people
| showing up at Best Buy and comparing the Lenovo machine to
| the Mac that costs 3x as much. This will not sway the
| average Joe any more than the Macbook Air did. It's not
| even seriously competing with the iPad price bracket that
| might tempt students.
|
| In the 2000s, Apple has not cared about competing at Best
| Buy. That isn't their customer. If anything though, the Neo
| is more of a foray into that wider market. Anyone with kids
| lugging home a crappy school-issued Chromebook though took
| one look at this device and knew this is a device Apple can
| position into schools -- a market they once dominated and
| lost. There are lots of markets where this will be a great
| device, where the customer wants a Mac and not "just" an
| iPad. In those cases, it isn't the end consumer buying this
| device, it's an IT manager - who can likely be tempted by
| that Mac ecosystem and a better grade of device relative to
| competition.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Maybe not to you, but to many people Apple signals
| luxury. It signals trust.
|
| In some countries Apple is (or was) a status symbol of
| luxury, but I haven't observed that much in the United
| States. Macs and iPhones are both mainstream and
| affordable. AirPods can be bought for $100 on sale. These
| are commodity items now, not symbols of luxury.
|
| Now, most people go to Apple because they see it as a
| premium option, not a status symbol or luxury. If you get
| AirPods or an iPhone you know what you're getting. If you
| buy those $50 wireless earbuds on Amazon your
| expectations are lower.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| >These are commodity items now, not symbols of luxury.
|
| Maybe I should have used the word "premium" rather than
| luxury.
| fragmede wrote:
| For me, the one feature that sells having an iphone and a
| Mac laptop to me is copy and paste between the two
| devices. I spend way more time on my phone than I should,
| but being able to go from my phone to my laptop and back
| is what has me in Apple's ecosystem (for now). MacOS and
| iOS feel like they are buggier than they used to be,
| (don't get me started on 26) but framing it purely as a
| luxury and brand identity thing, without looking at
| usability details like battery life is an
| oversimplification.
| emseetech wrote:
| Apple's support is top in the industry. And it's not even
| that great, it's but everyone else's support is just that
| bad.
|
| Easily worth the extra money alone.
| crooked-v wrote:
| Just the guarantee of being able to walk into a physical
| location and talk to a real person and have their full
| attention for a while when something goes wrong is worth
| all the other bullshit.
| syntheticnature wrote:
| The Macbook Neo is $599. Looking at my local Best Buy and
| dividing by 3, the laptops below $200 are all HP
| Chromebooks:
|
| Chromebook/N4500 (2021!)/4GB RAM/64GB eMMC, $149 white $179
| in grey Windows/N150/4GB RAM/128GB, $219 (first Windows
| machine)
|
| The first Lenovo is a Chromebook that's $299, and it's got
| a MediaTek processor from 2022 and is supposedly on a $100
| sale.
| hitekker wrote:
| I beg to differ on "damn good chromebooks for the $200-$300
| territory."
|
| I had a phase 2 years ago where I tried many cheap
| Chromebooks. I initially liked the stripped down experience
| and "value for dollar" hardware.
|
| But ChromeOS UX gaps, bad keyboards, and a litany of other
| issues wore me down and I gave up on the "second computer"
| quest.
|
| I look back now and see many of those Chromebooks don't
| even exist anymore.
| oompydoompy74 wrote:
| I have a relatively recent expensive gaming laptop from
| Asus for the occasional LAN party with friends. I hate it
| and it's a huge piece of shit. Windows 11 is necessary for
| anti-cheat shenanigans. Apple could change the Mac OS
| wallpaper to a permanent photo of a turd and it would still
| be better than Windows 11. Also the trackpad and keyboard
| suck.
| mietek wrote:
| FYI, the very recently released Marathon with the
| BattleEye rootkit works fine on a maximally trimmed down
| Windows 10 LTSC, which is what I'm running on my PC
| (personal console).
| happymellon wrote:
| Windows 10 LTSC is not available outside of volume
| licencing.
|
| That you pirate an OS they refuse to sell to you to get a
| better experience is your choice, but it's unrealistic to
| suggest that it's a solution for the average person.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > You can spend $400 on a laptop and have a perfectly fine
| experience.
|
| Or you could spend $200 more (or $100 more with edu
| pricing) and get a MacBook Neo which has significantly
| higher build quality, a much better screen, a great
| trackpad, and amazing performance.
|
| Seeing how college students throw laptops in backpacks,
| that extra $100 (edu pricing) could very easily save them
| money in the long run.
|
| > There are damn good Chromebooks in the $200-300 territory
|
| Every once in a while I go looking for a Chromebook-level
| laptop for some extra purpose and I am never impressed by
| anything. The current selection is all ancient processors,
| bad screens, creaky build quality. If you must stick to a
| strict budget then these can work, but I wouldn't call them
| good.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| First impressions can be a very poor judge of build
| quality. If you pick up a mil-spec laptop it'll feel a
| lot more like the $200 Chromebook. Yet it'll survive
| endurance tests that neither the Chromebook nor the
| Macbook will.
| throw0101d wrote:
| > _If you just need to do your taxes or answer a Zoom call,
| why_ would _you get a Macbook Neo?_
|
| To not have to deal with Windows (or Linux (speaking as a
| Linux sysadmin)).
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > people don't rave about [macOS] anymore
|
| I don't rave about macOS any more because I've been here
| for decades and, barring the occasional fight with Windows
| when I want to play something, I've largely forgotten how
| awful all the other options are[1].
|
| I've gone "OS blind", I guess, and now macOS, for me, is
| the "bare minimum of competence" - hence I won't rave about
| it (but I absolutely will moan about the stupid things it
| does[2].)
|
| [1] I spent decades using various Unix GUIs (on Suns, SGIs,
| Linux, OpenBSD for a while); I have absolutely zero desire
| to explore them again.
|
| [2] My current favourite is being able to notice when it's
| about to flip into "red battery, plug me in" mode because,
| for whatever godforsaken reason, the load average will
| rocket up into the 400s and everything turns to sludge for
| a couple of minutes. Oh how I laugh every time.
| nozzlegear wrote:
| > _macOS itself has been declining in quality since at
| least Mojave; people don 't rave about it anymore._
|
| If you need someone to rave about macOS, you simply need to
| ask me. Going from Windows to Linux to macOS was like
| coming home.
| albedoa wrote:
| You are doing the literal thing that the comment you are
| replying to predicted you would do!
| Aperocky wrote:
| I guess the market will speak for itself. I absolutely see
| the macOS percentage shoot to the sky, it's already almost
| 50% in the United States, with this, it will gravitate to
| 75%+ with significant penetration in Europe.
|
| Microsoft is also helping by making Windows an absolute
| dump of an OS.
| esseph wrote:
| 30% in the US.
| NetMageSCW wrote:
| >There are damn good Chromebooks in the $200-300 territory
| that I can genuinely recommend to people.
|
| Can you list one?
| ho_schi wrote:
| The last competitor remaining is Lenovo with the _ThinkPads_
| and pre-installed Linux [1].
|
| But even Lenovo cripples them: * You need to
| be very careful. Select alwaysCTO build with the best available
| display. But even then, Lenovo *removed* the HiDPI display from
| the X13. The only actual competitor to the MacBook Air is the
| ThinkPad X13. * Lenovo added useless camera humps
| protruding out of the panel. There is a thick bezel and enough
| space for a much better camera. And for opening the laptop used
| to be a dent in the (round!) palmrest, nothing protruding.
| * AMD, Intel and Lenovo fail to ship a fanless X13 and T14. I
| would happily keep same performance for two years, just getting
| rid of it. * Lenovo is drowning us in Yogas, Z13 or
| whatever Legion.
|
| They still have huge advantages (keyboard, maintenance manual,
| replacement parts, Linux compatibility, much more ports in case
| of the X14 and T14). Apples keyboards are nowadays "acceptable"
| but not even comparable to a good ThinkPad keyboard.
|
| [1] By the love of god. Don't order them with Windows! You are
| putting 80 to 130 euro right into Microsoft's stock owners. And
| they will use it to harm Linux. And of course, making Windows
| even worse. They use it to _harm you_. Select Linux. Donate the
| rest (Fasst, GNOME, KDE...) or use it for the better display.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Lenovo's website is a disaster. Not only do they appear to
| have 100 sku's but on a 27" 5K Apple Studio Display I can see
| _four_ laptops in the grid[1], which are actually cut off
| with their prices below the fold. Every single grid item has
| a "Katapult" lease to own offer, a "My Lenovo Rewards" offer
| (who the fuck is collecting rewards points from Lenovo, and
| what customer prioritizes the rewards they might earn over
| literally every other piece of information about the
| laptop?). There are 30 copies of the "(r)" symbol on the
| page. It's honestly a lesson in how not to design an
| e-commerce site.
|
| - [1]: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/subseries-
| results/?visi...
| TheAmazingRace wrote:
| I know Lenovo has their issues, but out of all the non-Apple
| laptop companies, they are by far the best out there. And to
| their credit, they do try to listen to customer feedback.
|
| Also, AFAIK, Lenovo still has their ThinkPad designs
| developed by a design think-tank lab in Japan that they own
| (and IBM still has a bit of influence here as well) so I know
| Lenovo still gives somewhat of a damn in trying to develop a
| solid laptop.
| agumonkey wrote:
| ThinkPads are also getting some real love, if ifixit didn't
| clickbait, the new lineup includes a lot of innovations to
| improve repairability
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/News/115827/new-thinkpads-score-
| perfe...
| deathanatos wrote:
| Even just within the Thinkpad lineup, their website is a
| mess. Let's even restrict ourselves to _just_ T series
| Thinkpads.
|
| First, the page looks like it misrenders with garish,
| inverse-color boxes breaking the apparent margin of the page.
| Then we get to the models: * ThinkPad T14s
| Gen 6 (14" Snapdragon) Laptop * ThinkPad T16g Gen 3
| (16" Intel) Laptop * ThinkPad T1g Gen 8 (16" Intel)
| Laptop * ThinkPad T14 Gen 6 (14" AMD) Laptop *
| ThinkPad T14s 2-in-1 (14" Intel) Laptop
|
| ... that's just the first row. There are _17 items shown_.
| Mostly it 's just a poor presentation: there's ~3-4 actual
| lines, and the rest of what's show is combinatorical
| complexity of the various ways you can customize them. It's a
| crapshoot of a presentation.
|
| The builds themselves seem worse now than they have before:
| they're overall more expensive for what you're getting vs. a
| few years ago. E.g., the GPU is ... gone? They're all iGPUs
| now. They include a "45%NTSC" screen by default, which is
| something I've never heard of, and I thought sRGB was the
| literal bottom of the barrel, but I guess we can go deeper.
| The warranty is pathetic, but so too is Apple's.
|
| You are right, you can get them without Windows now.
| whalesalad wrote:
| It gets worse when you look at Intel/AMD's CPU naming schemes.
| Ryzen AI 9 HX 370, Intel Core Ultra 9 285H. Clown show all
| around.
| wtallis wrote:
| The CPU model naming is silly, but definitely not as bad as
| laptop naming or monitor naming. Intel and AMD at least pick
| a structured naming scheme and stick with it for two or three
| years, and almost all of the OEMs tell you which processor
| you're getting so you can comparison shop between brands.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| Not really. Both AMD and intel have several models where
| the names are similar but differ in an important way such
| as one being pervious generation.
| giantrobot wrote:
| I'll just get a Pentium Gold CPU, with a name like that I
| bet it will be the best model!
| ngrilly wrote:
| Exactly. PC manufacturers have so many SKUs and are changing so
| many things from one model to another that their brand doesn't
| mean anything anymore. Buying a Dell, HP, Lenovo or Asus
| branded laptop doesn't say anything meaningful about what
| you're actually going to get. Unlike Apple (or Framework) where
| the brand still means something.
| varispeed wrote:
| In my opinion PC industry is also cooked because of fans. I
| simply cannot use any recent PC laptop, because the moment you
| do something it engages fans in the most obnoxious way.
|
| Every time someone turns on their PC laptop next to me, my ears
| feel assaulted.
|
| My Mac does engage fans from time to time, but I never notice
| the noise.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| How little attention cooling gets in the laptop industry
| outside of expensive gaming laptops is crazy. I have a
| ThinkPad that gets huffy when I plug it into a 2560x1440
| external display while otherwise idle (yes, under Linux too)
| which shouldn't even be possible.
| jclardy wrote:
| In addition to your research categories - is the fan going to
| sound like a jet engine when just opening slack? Is the case
| going to wobble and creak after a few weeks? Is it going to
| tank performance when unplugged? And if not - is battery life
| going to be a concern?
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| In low price brackets those awful barrel jack charger ports
| that get loose at record speeds still appear too, which isn't
| something people necessarily think about but will end up
| dragging down the user experience.
| fragmede wrote:
| How they're still selling laptops with those in this age of
| usb-c is criminal.
| randusername wrote:
| > The big players are just awful at marketing
|
| Apple is great at marketing to consumers. The other big
| players, I have to assume, are more focused on B2B where the
| threshold for UX acceptability is lower.
|
| The only ads I ever hear from them are on economics podcasts
| ostensibly aimed at business owners. For "Copilot+ AI PCs" no
| less, whatever that means. They're chasing a target audience of
| approximately 3 people in the world that are improbably held
| back from achieving their wildest AI dreams by not having a
| commodity laptop with an NPU.
| cannolicannon wrote:
| _The big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs and
| models - it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell laptops
| from the same release year differ._
|
| Just hired a new colleague who prefers Windows. Dell seemed
| like a reasonable option for a good laptop. Here is Dell's
| current lineup:
|
| - Dell Laptop (with 14, 15, 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Plus (with 14, 15, and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell XPS (with 13, 14, and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Premium (with 14 and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro Essential (with 14 and 15 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro (with 14 and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro Plus (with 14 and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro Premium (with 14 and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro Max (with 14 and 16 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro Max Plus (with 14, 16, and 18 inch variants)
|
| - Dell Pro Max Premium (with 14 and 16 inch variants)
|
| It's maddening trying to sift through the differences at this
| level. Then when you select a model, there can upwards of 8
| different pre-built options to review.
| asimovDev wrote:
| at our company we just pick the most current X1 13in Thinkpad
| 32/1000 for the windows preferrers.
| Reason077 wrote:
| Apple isn't this bad, of course, but they're slowly heading
| in that direction.
|
| The number of overlapping iPad models and variants, for
| example, is getting kind of crazy these days.
|
| Now there's the MacBook Neo and a rumoured new MacBook Ultra
| in the pipeline. The easy days of "pick standard or pro,
| select a display size, select RAM & storage" are starting to
| fade.
| enraged_camel wrote:
| >> The number of overlapping iPad models and variants, for
| example, is getting kind of crazy these days.
|
| One of the first things Steve Jobs immediately did after
| returning to Apple in 1997 was to kill most of Apple's
| product line-up, which had exploded in his absence.
|
| Too bad he's not around to save them from the same over-
| segmentation anymore.
| thewebguyd wrote:
| The goal is different. Jobs wanted to make the product
| spread simple to understand.
|
| Apple's current method is a pricing ladder, make it
| simple to spend $200+ more than you planned.
|
| MacBook Neo, $599. Great but maybe I want Touch ID & more
| storage, ok $699. Well at this point now it's "only" $300
| to get the air which is much better. Well, now that
| you're already spending $1000, might as well just do the
| extra $500 and get the pro..."
|
| Every product lineup is designed that way. It gets you
| thinking "eh, what's an extra $200" and slowly moves you
| up until you land at the highest tier.
|
| Now that everything is using the same silicon, it costs
| Apple very little to maintain all these variants (that
| are mostly binning), so there's little reason not to.
| snuxoll wrote:
| > Now that everything is using the same silicon, it costs
| Apple very little to maintain all these variants (that
| are mostly binning), so there's little reason not to.
|
| Don't underestimate how much of a bitch it is to maintain
| all the separate SKUs. This isn't the old CTO days where
| you had: 1 chassis, N mainboards for different CPU/GPU
| combinations, a bunch of SODIMM's of varying capacities,
| and a couple of different fixed storage drives to toss
| in.
|
| When any given MBP has 2 CPU/GPU options, multiple memory
| options, and multiple storage options, with everything
| being soldered to the board? Honestly, the Neo is the one
| product in their portable lineup that _doesn 't_ cause a
| massive headache for logistics.
|
| But...even then, Tim Cook is CEO still, and he _is_ a
| supply chain guy, so you better believe this is top of
| his list when it comes to their product lineup. You don
| 't increase operational complexity for no reason, because
| _that_ is where the cost for every product lies for them,
| it 's not just dealing with silicon binning.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > But...even then, Tim Cook is CEO still, and he is a
| supply chain guy, so you better believe this is top of
| his list when it comes to their product lineup. You don't
| increase operational complexity for no reason, because
| that is where the cost for every product lies for them,
| it's not just dealing with silicon binning.
|
| Sure... but when looking at sales numbers, HP and Apple
| are tied by monthly sales volume on Amazon [1], with
| everyone else being _widely_ behind them. But HP has
| almost 300 models, Apple much, much less - and Apple can
| react much, much faster because they almost directly run
| the production sites and mostly sell themselves, so they
| can produce an initial run of products and whenever a
| store or a region runs out of one specific variant, they
| just tell Foxconn to, say, instead of making a run with
| black casings they now make a day worth of gray casings,
| ship that onto a plane and that 's it. HP, Dell et al?
| Their inventory gets distributed by an intricate web of
| middlemen who all need buffer.
|
| [1] https://laptopmedia.com/highlights/august-2025-best-
| selling-...
| bombcar wrote:
| Those kind of pricing ladders are "fine" because at no
| point do you have to really make a decision. The problem
| is when it splits and you have a tree where what branch
| you go down precludes you from options on the other
| branch you might want.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > MacBook Neo, $599. Great but maybe I want Touch ID &
| more storage, ok $699. Well at this point now it's "only"
| $300 to get the air which is much better.
|
| Yes
|
| >Well, now that you're already spending $1000, might as
| well just do the extra $500 and get the pro..."
|
| Disagree. The Air offers additional utility and longevity
| for the price, the Pro offers nothing that 90% of people
| will ever perceive.
|
| I know a ton of people for whom the $500 would be
| nothing, but still get an Air rather than a Pro.
| Obviously, that's not great data, but I feel like the
| jump from Air to Pro just doesn't happen or won't happen
| compared to jumps from Neo to Air.
| NetMageSCW wrote:
| You keep saying $200 extra - I don't think you know what
| that means.
| 0x457 wrote:
| I think It makes sense for iPad line up to be this way.
| Very clear feature segmentation that make sense. Most is
| directly result of underlying hardware. For consumer it's
| also very easy:
|
| - decide on size
|
| - go from your budget
|
| - if still too many SKUs go by features
|
| What features? Thunderbolt, Screen, Apple Pencil, Face ID
|
| Alternatively if you know what features you want, start
| with that.
|
| If you're struggling to choose which iPad you need then
| you might want an iPad for the sake of having an iPad (in
| which case get Air).
| SllX wrote:
| The iPad line makes a lot more sense when you're just
| shopping and realize you're just on a price ladder. Start
| from the bottom and climb up picking up features along the
| way until you reach the point where you've got what you
| want or you're not willing to spend more money.
|
| The Neo is either easy to recommend or rather easy to not
| recommend. It has a fixed 8GB of RAM. I think that's too
| little for a modern Mac operating on the modern web.
| Others... disagree. Either way, it might entice some
| schools and school districts assuming they can volume
| discounts where 8GB is probably enough and it fills the
| spot in the Walmart part of the sales channel previously
| occupied by an 8GB RAM M1 MacBook Air Apple hadn't sold
| itself in years.
| dhosek wrote:
| From all the reviews, those of us who are skeptical of
| 8GB of RAM are very much wrong (I'm guessing it's
| lingering PTSD from being stuck on underperforming
| systems with too little RAM that makes us buy much more
| RAM than we actually need). I'm inches away from buying a
| couple of these for my kids.
| jrockway wrote:
| Back in 2000 I got the M1 Air with 8G of RAM (needed the
| cheapest Mac to test some arm64 stuff) and that laptop
| served me very well. I never felt RAM-limited. I was
| always expecting to run out of memory during a big Bazel
| build or something, but never did.
|
| It isn't the most powerful computer in the world but I
| never ran into any problems... so it's probably an OK
| compromise for most people, especially in the world where
| RAM is scarce because of AI datacenter buildouts.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > I'm guessing it's lingering PTSD from being stuck on
| underperforming systems with too little RAM that makes us
| buy much more RAM than we actually need
|
| Mac devices have been able to get away with less RAM (and
| higher priced upgrades) for well over a decade. During
| the Intel era, they were the first ones to adopt SSDs as
| the default option while everyone else still installed
| spinning rust. That alone provides for way faster swap
| storage to conceal a relative "lack" of RAM.
|
| And when they went for their own fully integrated stacks
| of soldered RAM and SSD? Then everything went off the
| rails - close proximity and no sockets means very low
| latency for both RAM and persistent storage on one side
| and on the other side it also allows for much higher
| bandwidth because of much cleaner signals - remember,
| even at "measly" hundreds of megahertz you're already in
| the territory requiring precise PCB design.
|
| On top of that, macOS's scheduler seems to be much, much
| more efficient and outright better in constrained RAM
| (and CPU) settings to provide the feeling of "the system
| is still responding" than either Windows or Linux. The
| only setting where macOS goes into molasses is when you
| not just run out of RAM but of free disk space as well.
| seunosewa wrote:
| Large Java apps like Android Studio are not good at
| managing 8gb of RAM. Emulators are terrible as well. They
| don't play well with the swap feature.
| thinkindie wrote:
| I believe the Neo doesn't necessarily target Android
| Studio users as their primary segment.
| nessus42 wrote:
| I have an M2 MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM that I bought
| three and half years ago. For browsing the web, listening
| to music, watching TV and movies, using Gmail, Google
| Sheets, Google Docs, etc., it's still perfectly fine.
|
| OTOH, for my development Mac, I have 64GB of RAM. (Though
| 32GB would probably be fine.)
| crooked-v wrote:
| At this point the RAM only matters if you've got
| something that actually needs all that RAM continuously,
| likes games, virtual machines, or heavyweight user
| workflows like 4K video editing. For everything else,
| swap usage on Apple machines works so well that RAM might
| as well not exist.
| calf wrote:
| It is giving me choice paralysis, last week I made a mental
| graph of the ones I wanted and went over all node pairs
| choose 2, now it's down to waiting for a fall M5 Mac mini
| paired with either: a MacBook Neo, or an iPad Air 13"; both
| options are very attractive for my intended usage though
| the latter seems higher risk since I've never used a 13
| inch tablet before.
| fl0ki wrote:
| I think the big difference is that if you just want to
| optimize for some objective, it's usually very clear how to
| do that from Apple's options, so there's not much research
| to be done. It can still be challenging to choose what's
| the best value when it's your own money, but at least you
| know what you're getting, and the quality hasn't been a
| concern for years.
| gib444 wrote:
| > Dell Pro Max Premium
|
| > Dell Pro Essential
|
| At least they have a sense of humour
|
| Pro... Essential?! If the sold hotel rooms they'd offer a
| Deluxe Economy ??
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| _Pro Essential_ is what the people in the cubes get. _Pro
| Max Premium_ is what the people in the _bigger_ cubes get.
|
| It looks like a rebrand and further segmentation of the
| Latitude/Precision segmentation.
| dumpsterdiver wrote:
| To be fair, the English language is the real victim here.
|
| While "essential" cleanly maps to "can't go without" - it
| doesn't map to "bare minimum".
|
| For instance, let's assume you're surviving in the
| wilderness and you need to start a fire. Your fire starting
| kit is obviously essential, but it could also be included
| in a "Camper Value Pack" - but those things don't have
| anything to do with each other. The kit is essential, and
| it was obtained in a value pack. This message brought to
| you by Mr. Obvious.
| andoando wrote:
| And thats just this year's model.
| n6242 wrote:
| It's last year's. I read a few weeks ago that they ditched
| the "Pro Premium" madness naming scheme and they're back to
| just XPS <size>.
| tantalor wrote:
| > Pro Max Premium
|
| lol
| brailsafe wrote:
| That Dell Pro Max Plus (that I legit thought might be a joke)
| is a big horkin laptop for ~$6k+. 3cm thick, nearly 3kg, and
| you can do wireframes on it, wow! A full HD screen with 500
| nits brightness. What a piece of shit product comparatively
| speaking. I imagine someone would buy it for a niche specific
| engineering purpose that can only be practical on Intel
| Windows, but damn.
|
| I really don't think it would fair better than a less costly
| M4/M5 Pro, and would probably be just an awful experience to
| use daily.
| grumpyprole wrote:
| Yes, it will also have 5 mins of battery life when
| unplugged and have a power adapter the size of a shoe box.
| I tried a similar machine from Lenovo at work and quickly
| returned it.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| The thing is, I think there's probably a niche for a
| workstation laptop like that, but this doesn't really
| check the right boxes.
|
| For all that extra bulk it ought to be extremely robust
| and repairable, have the best specs possible, and be
| equipped with the kind of killer cooling system that a
| thin chassis can't deliver. Then the tradeoffs might make
| sense.
| koyote wrote:
| I use the non-Plus version as my work machine (not by
| choice).
|
| It's massive and heavy and feels less snappy than my
| personal X1 Nano after all the corporate malware uses up
| most of the CPU and RAM.
|
| The screen resolution is also shockingly bad (my 13 inch X1
| Nano has a higher res than this 16 inch beast).
|
| That being said, it's nice having 64gb of RAM, a fast CPU
| and an Nvidia card (we build stuff that runs on CUDA).
| Build times are quick and I can run some of our more
| demanding test suites without RAM filling up and slowing
| everything down.
| laffOr wrote:
| I never understood why they didn't use the Apple "UI". Where
| Apple presents fewer models (say N models), and when you
| select one, each is configurable for screen
| size/RAM/CPU/whatever (say K picks), yielding N*K
| possibilities, many Windows laptop sellers present a list of
| N*K SKUs where you need to triple check what the difference
| between SKU A and B.
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| They do. That's just the different base models. You can
| customize each one.
| detourdog wrote:
| The last time (2005) I was faced with this issue and had to
| buy a Dell laptop. There were also Windows license issues to
| consider. I was going to be doing unattended installations
| and the Windows licensing required the original purchase be a
| particular SKU or I would need to buy second Windows licenses
| to install over a network.
|
| Which is a whole other set of frustrations.
| mikelitoris wrote:
| They forgot to add Dell Pro Max Premium Plus to complete the
| word salad, what a missed opportunity.
|
| If the Dell product naming team is reading here I have a
| couple marketing buzzword suggestions: add "elite", "ultra",
| "platinum" or "diamond" to the mix please. Doesn't "Dell Pro
| Max Elite Platinum Premium Plus" sound so much more
| marketable?
| grumpyprole wrote:
| That's absolutely insane.
| Aperocky wrote:
| The Dell part or the windows preference part?
| grumpyprole wrote:
| Both :)
| crooked-v wrote:
| It's kind of hilarious that they copied the Apple model of
| arbitrary superlative suffixes without realizing that each
| should signify some specific and obvious model option(s).
| bartread wrote:
| I had a series of two XPS laptops in my last corporate job,
| finishing two years ago. My uncle has also had one of them
| that passed on to me when he died.
|
| I can't speak for the other series you mention, but the XPS
| series is complete garbage and should be avoided at all
| costs. Three for three laptops, all in theory well specced,
| that were all horribly flawed in various ways (WiFi
| flakiness, constant driver issues, crappy trackpads, mediocre
| keyboards), does not speak well of that model line.
| herdymerzbow wrote:
| Every time I've considered an alternative to my Mac laptop
| I'm confronted by this much choice (and that of other
| manufacturers) and I also have to deal with unknown and
| varying performance of keyboard, display and trackpad.
|
| One thing PC manufacturers seem to prioritise and focus on is
| tech specs + performance and interface is tacked on (or at
| least the interface designers departments in their companies
| aren't leading the design), when by and large most consumers
| of their machines focus on the interface and whether the CPU
| is of a certain level is likely secondary to the experience.
|
| Anyway, I keep on going back to apple every 7 years (as
| that's how long they typically last) simply because I can't
| handle the choice or the uncertainty, but I'd love to bust
| out and get a linux using machine next.
| kwanbix wrote:
| As much as I like the performance and the power consumption of
| the current apple lineaup, the problems is I can not install
| Linux on the Neo. I can beraly install it on the M1, M2, and
| M3. And not everything works. If I could install Linux and have
| everything working, I will buy a Macbook (not a Neo) right
| away.
| lordgroff wrote:
| Linux will always be a second class citizen on Apple
| hardware. I have the M1 and have tried Linux a few times at
| different stages of maturity. As it is right now, it's still
| a far cry from the experience of a Linux on x86 hardware, and
| specifically Thinkpads. Bottom line is, even though I really
| like my laptop, I do NOT like Mac OS (and with every update I
| like it _less_) and will probably go back to a thinkpad for
| my next laptop. It's a big shame.
| kwanbix wrote:
| I hope that at least this wakes up AMD/Intel/PC
| Manufacturers. I don't expect a 600 usd x64 laptop, but I
| could surelly use an 800~1000 one.
| izacus wrote:
| After growing up in eastern Europe it's still wild to see young
| Americans stupidly demand less choice and more monopolies in
| their market.
|
| Like seriously, having laptop choice is causing you crippling
| issues? Is other people having a laptop to choose based on
| preference causing you distress when you go to Apple store?
| lurking_swe wrote:
| I don't think you fully understood their argument.
|
| The problem is not that other manufacturers offer choices -
| the problem is that for a typical consumer it's IMPOSSIBLE to
| really understand which computer in the lineup is appropriate
| for their needs. It seems most of them are focused on B2B
| sales.
|
| Of course, if you are a gamer or a nerd like myself, you
| don't mind spending a week finding the perfect computer. But
| that's an exception.
| dhosek wrote:
| Indeed, it's a simple matter to figure out what you want if
| you're buying a Mac. Laptop vs desktop. For desktop:
| integrated screen or not, for laptop, screen size, weight,
| then pick your processor, memory and storage and it's done.
| There aren't confusingly named and positioned overlapping
| models that it's unclear what you're gaining or losing for
| each one.
| cleaning wrote:
| After growing up in the USSR but living in the US, the young
| Americans are correct. The number of choices are an illusion,
| most paths lead you down the same shit. People don't have the
| time or energy to dig deep into every option for every
| purchase.
| giantrobot wrote:
| The issue isn't choices but _meaningless_ choices. Most PC
| manufactures have tons of SKUs that are functionally
| identical but offered in different sales channels.
|
| A dozen SKUs to describe the same hardware isn't real choice.
| It's the illusion of choice so a sales rep can offer a "deal"
| the buyer can't meaningfully compare to other SKUs. They're
| all machines out of an ODM's catalog with the "manufacture"
| logo pasted on.
| asdff wrote:
| Is the laptop market even choosy or discerning? Very few people
| I know would actually understand specs. Especially when you
| step outside people who majored in fields that require some
| programming. I assume they must buy laptops, if they still even
| buy laptops, based on things like yearly sales periods at
| retailers, since you do see a surprising amount of square
| footage reserved for laptops to sit open on tables (not just
| apple's) in places like best buy, costco, target, etc. So there
| must be buyers. Maybe their comparison only goes as far as
| whatever bullet points Costco highlights on the price tag I
| suspect, in a "bigger number is better for the price" sort of
| way vs understanding a persons own compute needs.
| grvdrm wrote:
| Not just PC industry!
|
| Feels that way in auto too.
|
| I go to Tesla, Lucid websites. Breath of fresh air. Clear
| choices.
|
| Porsche website: WTF. (just one example, there are many)
| Ferret7446 wrote:
| The consumer laptop industry has been dying for a while now
| IMO. The average person doesn't need a computer. They have a
| smartphone, and if they need a bit more screen then they have a
| tablet. If you're a power user or gamer a desktop is
| preferable.
| blemblemblam wrote:
| The secret is to buy a used ThinkPad on eBay. I have two of
| them. I think the ridiculous MSRP for them combined is $7000
| and I paid $1600 in total for a p series and an x1 carbon (3
| years old, but essentially new).
|
| These neos are for college and high school students.
| rubslopes wrote:
| > The big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs
| and models - it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell
| laptops from the same release year differ.
|
| Yes!! It's awful. I'm a long time Mac user and my wife needs a
| Windows laptop because of a specific software. I've tried three
| times to pick a computer for her, but I always give up after
| 10min and postpone the task...
| colechristensen wrote:
| >IMO the consumer PC industry is near an existential crisis.
| The big players are just awful at marketing; too many SKUs and
| models - it takes a paragraph to figure out how 2 Dell laptops
| from the same release year differ. The exact same specs will be
| in two different chassis designs.
|
| Existential crisis?
|
| This kind of nonsense has existed for the _entire_ history of
| the laptop market.
|
| One of the major reasons Apple is a trillion dollar company is
| they don't sell dozens of versions of their product. When it
| was a mystery which Dell laptop was the good one (or insert any
| other brand) you just picked the size of Apple that you wanted
| and it would be the good one.
|
| The last Dell laptop I bought I really liked... except for the
| terrible battery life and the fact that the structure was so
| poor that if you held it at the corner it would force reboot
| because the circuit board flexed to much and shorted or
| unplugged something.
| throwawayq3423 wrote:
| PC laptops have been dead outside of jobs that give them to you
| for years.
| bartread wrote:
| > taking up 99% of a single core while being riddled with
| security holes.
|
| And don't forget significantly shortening the usable battery
| life.
|
| Windows 11 and the crapware it typically ships with are all
| very hard on battery life, and sleep support is unreliable so
| you can often find significant battery drain even when the
| machine is supposed to be sleeping.
|
| For me it means that if I'm having to use a Windows laptop (and
| quite literally thank god that hasn't been true for 2 years
| now) then I've _got_ to have the power supply and cables with
| me at all times, and I 've _got_ to be somewhere I have a
| realistic chance of plugging in just in case the worst has
| happened.
| andai wrote:
| I bought a $50 ThinkPad last year and put Linux on it.
|
| I'm obviously not the target market, but this seems to me like
| the "correct" way to use a PC laptop, and solves all the
| problems you mentioned.
|
| (I don't game though, which seems like the only reason most
| people get a PC in the first place.)
| gamblor956 wrote:
| He wasn't referring to the build quality which is about average,
| or the ipad level performance.
|
| He was referring to the supply chain. The shock is that Apple was
| able to build something like this with current component costs.
| BoredPositron wrote:
| Planning beyond the next quarter? That's a rare level of
| foresight for most.
| financetechbro wrote:
| "Average" build quality? All the reviews I've seen rage about
| the build quality of the Neo
| smackeyacky wrote:
| My daughter just ordered one of these. She's a student (not stem)
| and her ancient 8Gb MacBook Air with an intel processor was still
| serving well but the battery has become unuseable and her
| keyboard is becoming flaky.
|
| The Neo is such a perfect replacement and easier than fixing the
| Air.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| The keyboard issue was probably caused by the battery, which
| can be replaced, and the keyboard would have likely returned to
| normal after the battery replacement.
|
| In fact, depending on the model, the battery replacement may
| well have also entailed replacing the whole top cover
| (including the keyboard).
| smackeyacky wrote:
| Interesting I will look at replacing the battery if that's a
| possibility. Thanks!
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| The Intel MacBook Air battery was very easy to swap, just
| opening the bottom lid. Amazon has kits for about 40 bucks
| with the two necessary screwdrivers included.
| ibero wrote:
| come on now, let the poor girl have a new laptop to replace
| her (at least) 5 year old one. what are we doing here.
| ExoticPearTree wrote:
| Maybe other manufacturers will actually stop making crappy
| hardware that feels like its taped together?
| VerifiedReports wrote:
| More importantly, they need to find an alternative to Windows.
| A $10,000 computer wouldn't fix that dogshit.
| ExoticPearTree wrote:
| There's really nothing in between. If ChromeOS would have
| been an alternative, maybe more Chromebooks would have been
| sold.
|
| It comes down to Microsoft not doubling down on "let's make
| Windows as annoying as possible" (with ads, with telemetry
| that can't be turned off).
| fragmede wrote:
| Depends what you want to do. ChromeOS is pretty great at
| certain things.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| Hardware is hard, and Apple's scale lets them make things that
| are nice while still maintaining their margins.
|
| A decade ago, but still relevant: https://beneinstein.com/no-
| you-cant-manufacture-that-like-ap...
| VerifiedReports wrote:
| Windows is such an offensive, defect-ridden pile of shit now that
| every PC maker should be blaming Microsoft for their inability to
| compete with the Neo.
|
| I bought my parents Asus laptops years ago, and can't wait to
| replace them with a Neo.
|
| Microsoft has spurned and scorned users. Now it's time for
| computer makers to push back and reject its shit. I'd love to see
| a consortium of computer makers come together to refine a Linux
| distro that's consumer-friendly enough to oust Windows and
| compete with Mac OS.
| nubinetwork wrote:
| Dell has been pushing Linux for like 20 years? I don't remember
| which distro, probably fedora or ubuntu...
| BoredPositron wrote:
| It's an option for maybe 2 SKUs... hardly pushing anything.
| ZiiS wrote:
| That you couldn't actual order; at least as a UK SME.
| nubinetwork wrote:
| I count 4 desktops and 11 laptops. Sorry, try harder next
| time.
| greatgib wrote:
| They have a very limited set of choices. I would have bought
| more if you were not too limited in term of choice in their
| inventory.
|
| At some point the XPS 13 dev edition was the almost perfect
| laptop. Then they ruined it with the following generations of
| it.
| franktankbank wrote:
| I got an xps long time back that had the option to pay extra
| for ubuntu. I'm not going to pay to plug in a usb and I also
| get the joy of erasing a windows install from the face of
| this earth.
| schaefer wrote:
| >I'd love to see a consortium of computer makers come together
| to refine a Linux distro that's consumer-friendly enough to
| oust Windows and compete with Mac OS.
|
| System 76 already has Pop!_OS. Lenovo.com/linux will redirect
| you to a list of linux compatible lenovo laptops that's a mile
| long.
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| maybe Apple is "subsidizing" this ?
|
| nudge/"help" people to join the party?
|
| trying to ride something around the windows-bullshitization ,
| recent memory-prices etc..
| bdbdbdb wrote:
| 600 is a bargain for a MacBook, but I can't see the public
| windows users switching en masse. Most people who buy cheap
| windows laptops do so because 1) they need to replace a broken
| laptop and want to pay the lowest amount possible 2) they don't
| want to learn some new thing
|
| 600 might seem budget, but it's out of budget for most people.
| And my guess is PC manufacturers will retaliate against this by
| cutting prices just a little to drop under that 600 price point
| for mid range ryzens, with more ram and space.
|
| Any family members I've helped shop for computers only care about
| how much space it has, how cheap it is, and will it struggle to
| run things like the last one. As it sits the MacBook is more
| money for less gigabytes
| lm28469 wrote:
| > 600 might seem budget, but it's out of budget for most
| people.
|
| Out of budget for my parents but I'll pay the difference
| myself. It's just painful to see them use their pile of shit
| $300 laptop that can barely open a text editor, sounds like a
| jet engine and has about 45 minutes of battery life.
|
| The only haptic feedback they get if the entire fucking thing
| creaking as soon as you lightly touch it.
|
| They've been through at least 5 of them since I bought my 2015
| mbp, which is still working fine in every aspects
| tim333 wrote:
| That's an important point - the been through 5 of them. The
| cost or running a $600 mac is probably similar to running
| $300 pc laptops that pack up.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
| kreco wrote:
| The funny thing is that it would do the same for double the
| price.
|
| You need to spend a ridiculous amount of time on research
| because the producer itself is selling very different product
| (very different quality) from a year to another.
|
| I wish a "brand" would be consistant but it's not 99% of the
| time.
| ndr42 wrote:
| And it's even more painful for me to do the remote tech
| support for my (80+ years old) parents so paying the
| difference is a kind of preservation of my mental health...
| basch wrote:
| The thing about "switching" is you just need to capture the
| next generation. Kids who have an iPhone 17e. Then go off to
| college.
| intrasight wrote:
| Also, there are plenty of users such as myself that won't be
| "switching" but will instead be augmenting my AMD desktop
| with a laptop. I've not purchased a new Mac since year
| 2000-ish but I do play to purchase a Neo.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| My dad the other month, in need of a computer with webcam and
| ideally portable, bought some $400-500 HP 17" laptop. He was so
| proud of it, proud of buying a piece of hardware without asking
| me, and rather than tell him the truth, I nodded and said "yeah
| this is neat".
|
| The monitor is _awful_. Like, the horrible way it changes color
| and brightness depending on exact viewing angle is sickening; I
| am shocked California hasn 't declared it illegal. It feels
| cheap, keyboard is cheap, who knows what the battery life is.
|
| If the Apple Neo were available then, and he had asked what to
| buy, I would have instantly told him to get one.
| ezst wrote:
| I broke that circle by having a sibling ultimately follow my
| recommendation of getting a ThinkPad T at a discount (prev-
| gen during a sale) and then letting them advertise it to the
| rest of the family.
|
| If you ask me, for a comparable price range, the ThinkPad
| still is a much better pick than the MacBook Neo: that thing
| has no IO and not even enough RAM for nowadays light web
| browsing.
| kstrauser wrote:
| You're comparing a $1254-minimum laptop[0] with a
| $599-minimum laptop[1] and asserting that the one that's
| twice as expensive is nicer.
|
| I'd expect it to be. In fact, I'd demand it.
|
| (I'm ignoring the "old model, found cheaply" bit because
| that's entirely irrelevant. You can find old Macs on sale
| around, too, but that doesn't mean you can reasonably
| compare them to the MSRP of a brand new device.)
|
| [0]https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/c/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad
| t/
|
| [1]https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2026/03/say-hello-to-
| macbook-...
| nirava wrote:
| LOL I had the exact same experience. Somehow it was a
| goddamned HP too (oh how I detest HP everything).
|
| And to think I'd explicitly mentioned to him that Apple would
| probably be releasing the kind of cheap beautiful laptop he
| was looking for in a month :(
| asimovDev wrote:
| you might be underestimating how much lifting the apple logo on
| the lid will do for this laptop. If it advertises the whole
| apple ecosystem thing well, then those people who already have
| iPhones, AirPods etc they would be very very compelled to go
| with this versus an Acer or a Lenovo
| kstrauser wrote:
| The last time certain family members asked me for a computer
| recommendation, I gave them a detailed breakdown of which
| MacBook they could get to meet their lightweight needs for the
| next decade. They thanked me, agreed, went to Best Buy, and
| came back with the laptop that the salesperson convinced them
| was better "because he knows computers". It was an utter piece
| of crap and they've had nothing but problems with it.[0]
|
| Had this existed when they were shopping, I would've just asked
| what color they wanted it in, ordered it for them, and been
| done with it.
|
| [0] OTOH, that got me out of all future tech support duties.
| "Hey, why can't I connect our new printer to it?" "I'm not
| sure. Does that Best Buy expert still work there? He might have
| some suggestions." (Phrased more politely IRL because I'm not a
| monster, but the intent was there.)
| cryptos wrote:
| Windows reputation is declining, so the operating system might be
| the actual crisis. Linux with modern desktops (e.g. Gnome 3)
| might fill the gap, but the market is far from broad adoption.
| Promoting and improving Linux desktop and apps would be a long
| endeavour, but betting only on Windows which degrades to a cloud
| and AI advertising surface might be fatal.
| p_ing wrote:
| Windows 11 has 1 Billion+ installs. That's not a decline and
| hardly a crisis. That's a _huge_ install base.
| fsloth wrote:
| This.
|
| Ofc a huge chunk of that is in companies but I'm fairly sure
| there are at least two windows 11 machines per one mac in
| consumer segment as well.
| halapro wrote:
| It's just momentum. You buy windows because you have
| windows. You buy windows because there's not really much of
| a choice. You have windows because you're not going out of
| your ways to reconfigure hundreds of laptops at your
| company just for your employees to be less comfortable with
| Linux.
|
| Now introduce a choice... and things might change.
|
| With the vast majority of software nowadays living in the
| browser, your OS matters less and less, especially for a
| business that buys machines for its employees.
| fsloth wrote:
| As OS matters less that's probably not going to entrench
| Microsoft less. Their relationship with OEM:s is not
| market based but a two way relationship.
|
| At this point I would not be surprised if MS started to
| subvent the PC manufacturers to favour Windows over Linux
| if that ever comes to that.
| bigfishrunning wrote:
| > At this point I would not be surprised if MS started to
| subvent the PC manufacturers to favour Windows over Linux
| if that ever comes to that.
|
| I've always assumed this has been happening since the
| 90s.
| fsloth wrote:
| I would have expected MS has charged some fee for Windows
| but honestly no clue.
|
| I'm sure there are readers with actual insight here :)
| p_ing wrote:
| Generally you can see the Windows fee. Just go to an OEM
| like Lenovo and configure a laptop without Windows. It'll
| be some -$ amount.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| There's an anecdote about flies and shit there somewhere =)
| nirava wrote:
| While that's true, I also think these things tend to happen
| as a gradual build up to the tipping-point effect where the
| zeitgeist shifts so suddenly that a massive player is
| suddenly irrelevant.
|
| Microsoft is structurally incapable of making Windows better.
| Intel is intrinsically incapable of making x86 better (enough
| to matter). x86 hardware manufacturers are in a price race to
| the bottom, and there's no way around that.
|
| Apple doesn't have any of those problems. Instead, more and
| more young people can afford and aspire to get a Mac. They
| want to buy software that works on the mac, and they'll want
| to write software for the Mac. The network effect compounds.
| p_ing wrote:
| The zeitgeist exists on forums like this. Outside where
| people touch grass now and then, they largely don't care.
|
| x86 OEMs are a race to the bottom because that's how the PC
| market has been for eons as PCs are a tool, not a status
| symbol, but how has x86 not 'gotten better'? It's
| significantly more battery friendly than it has ever been
| by a long margin, matching the M-series.
| bigyabai wrote:
| I swear that I read this comment in 2019, and it's still
| wrong today. Young people want iPhones, go look at Apple's
| revenue breakdown. iPhones and iPhone accessories _dwarf_
| Mac sales, the only comparable product in terms of revenue
| is the iPad. There is no evidence that Apple Silicon has
| changed that B2C story.
|
| In the broader B2B sense, Apple lost pole-position to
| Nvidia. They're not the ecosystem kingmaker they once were,
| and their ARM architecture is failing to subsume demand for
| their competitors. The "Private Compute" Mac-based servers
| are going terribly according to reports, and their
| contribution to the chip shortage has even driven them to
| collaborate with Intel Foundry Services:
| https://www.macrumors.com/2025/11/28/intel-rumored-to-
| supply...
| locallost wrote:
| Was my first thought also when I saw it. I honestly planned to
| ditch Macbooks before they released M1, but this hardware is just
| so much better than anything Intel or AMD can offer at least for
| laptops. For people that are not too demanding I've recommended
| Airs for a while, but this basically has the potential to destroy
| the entire midrange PC market. Some people will be reluctant to
| switch, but I don't think the OS is as important today as it was
| before. So much happens on the web anyway.
|
| edit: also on a tangent, Apple's pricing has become weird. It
| actually feels like it's a really good bang got the buck. Regular
| iPads are under 400 now, and they're just better than the
| competition. MacBook Pro is about the same price as it ever was,
| but it's just so much better than it was etc.
| JSR_FDED wrote:
| What's shocking is that this is a shock to the PC Industry.
| cromka wrote:
| Just imagine what Apple would do to the market if they also
| offered a full Linux support, but not Windows... They'd probably
| own some 70% of Linux market outright and also double its overall
| size overnight.
| beAbU wrote:
| If apple came out with their own linux distro, with open
| drivers and a mainline kernel... A girl can dream!
| pjmlp wrote:
| This path is already taken and it didn't sell Apple hardware
| in masses.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux
| beAbU wrote:
| MkLinux was first released in 1996, and discontinued in
| 2002.
|
| I would argue that things have changed significantly since
| then.
| yfw wrote:
| Yeah liquid glass suckss
| starkparker wrote:
| The memory that XNU and Darwin are technically open-source
| projects is a curse that brings one only suffering.
| p_ing wrote:
| I would call them open access. Apple doesn't accept
| contributions.
| bigfishrunning wrote:
| Does not accepting contributions make you not open
| source? I would assume if the license allows you to fork
| it, that makes it open source (as opposed to "shared
| source" licenses that basically say "look don't touch")
| kylec wrote:
| I feel like Apple wouldn't want to make full Linux work on
| their hardware, but they could enable their Darwin kernel to
| emulate Linux syscalls and provide a way to boot into a mode
| that basically loads the kernel and whatever Linux shell you
| want
| pjmlp wrote:
| Don't need to imagine, it did not take off,
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MkLinux
|
| > Reception was mixed, focusing on the difficult installation
| process and the significant performance costs of the Mach
| kernel. Reviewers noted its potential as a "Unix killer", but
| that it required users to abandon the user-friendly Macintosh
| experience for a pure Linux environment.
| fsflover wrote:
| > difficult installation process and the significant
| performance costs
|
| So it was a failure in implementation.
| pjmlp wrote:
| And the Apple that delivered Tahoe will do better?
| cromka wrote:
| All they would need is to provide complete DTBs and some
| drivers, no need to write a new OS from scratch.
| kingstnap wrote:
| 1996 is not now. This comparision makes little to no sense.
|
| I'm sure if Apple provided support for installing your own OS
| on their M series laptops it would be incredibly popular. And
| I don't need to guess at this using weird 1996 research on
| microkernels because Asahi Linux exists and clearly there is
| interest in it.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Indeed, Apple from 1996 would not released Tahoe, most
| likely.
|
| We don't need research because QNX, L4 and many others on
| embedded space do exist as well.
| mhurron wrote:
| Do you forget what Apple in '96 was? Or are you saying
| that Tahoe is too polished for the Apple of '96?
|
| Apple was not a bastion of quality in the 90's. They
| couldn't modernize the Mac OS, and that continued with
| little more than window dressing over what was released
| in the 80's. The Mac line up was a horrible mess of
| barely different models that needed a Ph.D to figure out
| what was different. The company was bleeding money and
| seriously close to bankruptcy.
|
| The Apple of the mid 90's wishes it could release
| something like Tahoe.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Yes the 1996 Apple was on the edge of bankruptcy, yet Mac
| OS 8 was definitely much more polished than Tahoe.
| ribosometronome wrote:
| Apple circa 1996 would be charging for its updates and
| licensing out the software to Power Computing and UMAX.
| They were making a lot of "interesting" decisions.
| pjmlp wrote:
| They still are doing lots of interesting decisions, the
| difference is that now the piggy bank is full to care of
| them going badly.
| officeplant wrote:
| Rip Blackberry Phone + QNX, you were so promising for
| such a short time.
| eloisant wrote:
| They already cannibalized a lot of Linux users, developers
| mainly when they released MacOS X around year 2000.
|
| Suddenly you could have a Unix, with pretty much the same CLI
| as Linux but without all the supported hardware/driver issues.
| Laptop sleep in particular was pretty finicky.
|
| If MacOS didn't pick a Unix/BSD base, I'm pretty sure all the
| tech companies running Mac would be on Linux.
| throw0101d wrote:
| > _They already cannibalized a lot of Linux users, developers
| mainly when they released MacOS X around year 2000._
|
| _FoxTrot_ comic from 2002:
|
| * https://archive.is/https://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2002/02
| /...
| nottorp wrote:
| They seem to be trying hard to annoy developers lately
| though.
|
| <cough> xattr...
| Apocryphon wrote:
| BeOS, anyone?
| znpy wrote:
| Clearly not
| layer8 wrote:
| Apple wants to make money with services, however, and buying
| more devices in their ecosystem. Full Linux support would
| counteract the lock-in.
| cromka wrote:
| I thought about it , but cloud is getting way more expensive
| since they don't own the infrastructure, while they
| themselves have long term components contracts that actually
| help to increase their margin on their hardware. So they're
| most likely gonna make more money off of hardware going
| forward. And nothing stops them from offering integration
| with other devices, effectively all they lose is potential
| income from AppStore on macOS, which doesn't sell much
| anyway. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to
| me!
| ozlikethewizard wrote:
| When did $600 become budget?
| thunderbong wrote:
| For existing Mac owners.
| Schmerika wrote:
| Would you be surprised if I told you that $600 is slightly
| under 11 days of the average rent [0]?
|
| 0 - https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/
| ozlikethewizard wrote:
| Is that more rents are insane though, british perspective but
| 600 ~ PS450, PS450 is still around a third of an average
| rent, but I'd consider a budget laptop those in the PS2-350
| range. For the average user PS400+ (so $500+) is decidely
| midrange purely on the virtue that its the middle of the
| range for general use laptops (being PS150-1000 really,
| anything more than that and you're entering decent
| gaming/workstation specs).
| amenhotep wrote:
| Not to mention that it they are, naturally, going to
| convert $600 to PS600.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| When it lasts 5 to 10 years. I'm still using my 2020 MacBook
| Pro, and figure I'll get another half decade out of it. That's
| <$200/year. The Neo could be a <$100/year laptop, which puts it
| in the same class as $200 shitbooks that crap out after two or
| three years.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Recently after another round of 30-40% inflation.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| The legacy PC makers are lucky that Ubuntu doesn't work on this,
| or else they'd face even more competition. By now, everyone hates
| Windows. And I'd wager some people hate it enough to be willing
| to switch to whatever works and is halfway ad-free.
| joe_mamba wrote:
| _> The legacy PC makers are lucky that Ubuntu doesn't work on
| this_
|
| If Linux would be able to be installed and fully working on
| this out of the box, then the laptop wouldn't cost 600 dollars.
| Apple profits from monetizing people tied to its iOS+MacOS
| ecosystem. If you're not gonna be a MacOS/iOS user, you're
| worthless to them and selling you a laptop for only 600 dollars
| is not good for business anymore.
| etothet wrote:
| "I'll just say it: I think I'm done with iPads. Why bother when
| Apple is now making a crackerjack Mac laptop that starts at just
| $600?"
|
| I'm curious to see this machine in person, but I'd bet the an
| iPad is still the best large device in Apple's ecosystem for
| anything that benefits from viewing in portrait mode.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Portrait or landscape - if your use is dominated by looking at
| the screen and/or situations where it can't set it down (to use
| the KB), then the iPad is better.
|
| Assuming the software you need supports iPad, etc.
| WillAdams wrote:
| Am I the only person who manually rotates a laptop screen to
| portrait, then holds it like a book to use thus?
| rconti wrote:
| Quite possibly!
| calf wrote:
| "I wish Apple would make a MacBook that's akin to the iPhone Air
| -- crazy thin and surprisingly performant."
|
| I think a lot of us wish that! I'm struggling to pick either the
| Neo or the new iPad Air 13", the former for having MacOS, or the
| latter for light weight and light usage purposes. And come this
| fall pair whichever choice with an M5 mini at home.
| pragmatic wrote:
| But you're stuck with MacOS.
|
| I can't stand it and every update makes it worse.
|
| Been running popos abs everything I can and it's petty nice.
|
| Installed it on a new LG Gram and everything works including
| fingerprint reader. Is my favorite laptop and my old Mac sits
| gathering dust,
| Carstairs wrote:
| Yeah I got one from work. I was quite excited to get one as
| macos is supposed to be a paragon of design but after using it
| I'm so glad I didn't spend my own money on it as it's been a
| total disappointment. There isn't a day that goes by that I
| don't want to launch it off the roof.
| FeloniousHam wrote:
| I use it everyday, I love it. Native unix, great apps and
| ecosystem.
| drcongo wrote:
| It's amazing how often people who post on here about hating
| macOS have only just got a Mac for the first time and
| simply can't be bothered to learn, or hate that the
| keyboard shortcuts are different, or desperately want their
| OS level adverts back or something. It's lazy.
| throw-the-towel wrote:
| Conversely, it's amusing how often do Apple people assume
| everyone else is Holding It Wtong (tm).
| p_ing wrote:
| Been using macOS for years, even main it for both
| personal and work. It has a LOT of UX issues and requires
| many 3rd party tools to "fix" it.
|
| macOS has plenty of it's own OS adverts.
| thepryz wrote:
| As a lifetime Mac user, I will say that the last few
| updates to MacOS have made me start looking towards
| linux. Ignoring the many sins of liquid glass, Disk
| utility is almost nonfunctional, as are many of the
| built-in utilities. Sure I can use the command line tools
| but to me it's a concerning trend that highlights poor
| attention to detail that the Mac was always known for.
| hodgehog11 wrote:
| As someone who has done this very thing, and is a
| lifelong Linux fanboy (I run Linux on literally
| everything else), I would strongly suggest you don't do
| this if you're using a Macbook. The losses on battery
| life are far too high to accept, and if you have lower
| specs on the Mac laptop, you will really feel them on
| most Linux flavours.
| alistairSH wrote:
| MacOS was the paragon of design 5-10 years ago. Sadly, Apple
| is subject to enshittification just like MS and others.
| voidmain0001 wrote:
| From work, I have a Thinkpad X1 gen 13 and it's awesome. Super
| lightweight, and great power. But, when I tried Linux a few
| months ago its hardware was still too bleeding edge. Things may
| be better with kernel v7 on the way. I like the Gram as a
| personal device so may I know what model Gram you have?
| Kostic wrote:
| For now. These will be pretty cool Linux machines if Asahi
| starts supporting them at some point.
| hu3 wrote:
| It's going to take 3 years+ and it will be a 8GB RAM linux
| machine.
| hadlock wrote:
| I generally run chrome/firefox and vscode full screen, and then
| alt-tab between those and my email (outlook at current company)
| and messaging (slack). Plus terminal window/s. That workflow is
| mostly reproducible across win/mac/linux. What features are you
| using that MacOS is getting in the way?
| mmcnl wrote:
| Decent package manager, brew is awful compared to apt. Window
| snapping can only be done on Apple keyboards not on external
| keyboards. No Alt+Tab, Cmd+Tab is not the same. No window
| previews when hovering over dock, ridiculous animation speed
| when switching workspaces that can't be changed (and somehow
| Ctrl+1/2/3 is 2x faster than Ctrl+Left/Right? What is that
| all about). Needing third-party apps for basic things like:
| setting a custom resolution (BetterDisplay), setting scroll
| direction for mouse wheel independent of touchpad scroll
| direction. And the Settings app is super slow.
| Howietje wrote:
| Nix darwin + package manager with aerospace and sketchybar
| make it almost the same as my desktop pc. Could that be an
| alternative?
| Xfx7028 wrote:
| What is bad about brew? I have used it in the past and I
| found it fine. With apt I have less experience since I only
| used it when playing with a raspberry pi.
| wrxd wrote:
| I find it generally slow and by default it gets in the
| way in a very annoying way. Without disabling the feature
| l, every single time I try to install something it also
| looks for updates so instead of installing a single
| package I end up upgrading many additional packages
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| > But you're stuck with MacOS
|
| I believe this is the whole reason this device exists. Apple
| saw Windows 11 fiasco and decided to push MacOS to low-end
| computer market.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Not Asus, but I have a crappy Lenovo plastic laptop that was
| around that price range when new, and it's horrible. The hinges
| have so much resistance that the garbage display panel flexes
| when you try to open the lid. The junk trackpad is the size of a
| credit card, and requires some amount of force to actually pick
| up the fact that your finger is moving on it. The SDCard reader
| has failed twice (I'm on my third). It's just a piece of garbage
| and is even then it's about middle of the road when it comes to
| PC laptop quality. And outside of specific defects, (and this is
| what's endemic throughout the PC laptop ecosystem) the build
| quality just subjectively feels like it's barely held together
| with tape and glue. Like what you'd expect from a toy from an old
| cracker jack box. These OEMs have been shipping absolute trash
| for years, and it's about time the industry got a shock.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Some more discussion on source:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47332009
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| "It's a real Mac" - I get that!
|
| I remember a whole slew of inexpensive netbooks and the like that
| were _technically_ Windows XP or Windows 7 machines, but came
| with a dumbed-down "starter" OS, not enough RAM, only a 32-bit
| CPU in an era were 64 bits were already becoming standard - the
| sum of which amounted to a barely usable imitation of a real
| Windows machine and as a result most of these became garage sale
| fodder pretty quickly.
| tfehring wrote:
| I thought I was so clever for buying one of those things for
| like $190 and putting Lubuntu on it to make it usable. It
| worked - but the joke was still on me when it died a year
| later.
| DauntingPear7 wrote:
| This is pretty much a repackaged M1 air from 2020, so it's a
| competent machine
| madeofpalk wrote:
| It's a repackaged iPhone 16. Also a competent machine.
| znpy wrote:
| Oh i had one of those! The acer aspire one d250, with 1gb ram
| and 160gb of spinning rust.
|
| Once i got Debian, fluxbox and emacs on it i was able to do
| java development (with ant and the j2me toolkit).
|
| It was no big issue at all really, once you got linux on it.
|
| I must say, however: the web was much lighter back in the day
| and electron was still to be conceived. That's very relevant.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| > Because the Neo's only camera-in-use indicator is in the menu
| bar, that seems obviously possible to circumvent via software.
|
| Not as obvious as the author implies. Apple has some docs out,
| IIRC, explaining how it is implemented. Worth a read...
| timpera wrote:
| Does anyone know if it runs Windows 11 well? It seems like the
| Parallels app has not been tested by reviewers so far. This could
| make a great Windows machine.
| giobox wrote:
| Given you only have 8gb of RAM to share between MacOS and the
| Windows VM, running a Windows 11 VM in Parallels is not a great
| usecase for this machine.
| etchalon wrote:
| I look forward to the insane amount of bloatware HP will add to
| hit a 599 price point.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > The Neo charges faster if you plug it into a more powerful
| power adapter, in either USB-C port.
|
| The fact that the "usb 2" port works for (fast) charging is a big
| win. That means you can charge and use the fast usb port at the
| same time.
| Someone wrote:
| > That means you can charge and use the fast usb port at the
| same time.
|
| For some use cases, you can do that with a single USB port,
| too. For example, a single USB cable connected to a monitor can
| both send video and charge the laptop.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Sure, but it's certainly convenient to have two ports
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| I think that makes it a non-standard implementation though (I
| agree it's certainly more practical for the user), sounds like
| it's usb-c pd but with nerfed data, an odd choice that feels
| like it would actually have cost more to develop than just
| adding two identical usb-c 3.x ports...
| nicoburns wrote:
| I suspect the limitation is that the SOC doesn't have the IO
| bandwidth to support two ports at usb 3 speeds (remembering
| that the SOC was designed for iphones which physically only
| have one port).
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Ah, that's a good point, it would make sense (and be a
| small but real gotcha of using a phone CPU in a laptop).
| eldaisfish wrote:
| Does this mean it is now possible to run OS X on an ipad?
| Those also tend to use phone processors.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Technically possible yes. It will have been for years at
| this point. But Apple hasn't released a build for ipad.
| error503 wrote:
| Why would it be non-standard? USB-PD is almost completely
| decoupled from the rest of USB, and USB-C connector doesn't
| imply 'super speed' lanes are available. The only thing it
| really changes from an implementation perspective is that you
| don't have to route high speed lanes to the port, and don't
| need them to be available on your USB controller.
|
| Doesn't seem to be very Apple-like to have two identical
| looking ports with different function, though.
| wtallis wrote:
| I'm not sure exactly what the USB specs require, but there
| are a _lot_ of phones out there that only support USB 2.0
| data speed but do implement the current fast charging
| protocols. It 's absolutely a mainstream thing.
| hadlock wrote:
| USB-C PD (power delivery) has been a standard for over a decade
| now. I first used it on a Nexus 4 or 5, and later on a
| Chromebook Pixel in 2016. It would be surprising for apple to
| not use that standard, particularly when both ports are
| probably run from the same controller.
| Marazan wrote:
| It's good but it's no Asus eee901
| so-cal-schemer wrote:
| Nor an Asus C101:
|
| RK3399 6-core ARM v8, Mali-T864 GPU, 1.9lb aluminum body, 10"
| IPS multitouch display, USB-C, compact chicklet-style keyboard
| -- or since it's a 2-in-1, flip it around and use your own
| portable ergo/ortholinear. coreboot/libreboot support...
|
| Bring out a refresh, Asus.
|
| https://www.asus.com/us/laptops/for-home/chromebook/asus-chr...
| efficax wrote:
| Calling this a "content consumption" device seems wrong to me.
| Sure, it's not a professional laptop. You're going to have a bad
| time trying to run more than one Adobe creative suite app at
| once, or running the iOS emulator, but the chip in it is very
| powerful, and you can do real work on this laptop. I was even
| thinking of snagging one to use as a kind of thin client for dev
| accessing my big linux box via tailscale. It might be worthwhile
| to ensure that a web app you're developing will work on a less
| powerful machine without killing the browser, for example.
| nicole_express wrote:
| I can definitely see why the Asus CEO would want to put it in
| that box, though.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| Content consumption definitely seems like the wrong term, it
| seems perfectly cromulent for let's say a college student, or
| an executive.
| nottorp wrote:
| If you ask me, all web devs should be forced to work on 4 Gb
| machines.
|
| This way you'll be able to run more than one "web app" at the
| same time on your devices.
| whynotmaybe wrote:
| Should be forced to Test on a 4gb machine.
|
| A few years ago, I had two computers on my desk, my beefy dev
| with double screens and some good specs for the time and my
| test machine which was the standard given to every non dev,
| with a 1024x768 screen.
|
| I couldn't say to the boss that the code was ready until I
| tested it on that machine, which was sometimes eye opening
| and why a 2Mb HTML page wasn't a good idea.
| dangus wrote:
| That's dumb. You can hardly even buy a machine with 4GB of
| memory on sale, at any price.
|
| If you are making products that depend on people spending
| money on them, you generally don't have to care about broke
| people with 15 year old computers.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| Not caring makes the world worse for everyone. All of us.
| Including you.
| sonofhans wrote:
| I must say, the irony of this comment in a thread about
| Apple moving down-market without losing quality is ...
| well, it burns. Along with the arrogance: "Anyone who can't
| afford 8GB isn't worthy of being my customer," is literally
| the opposite of what Steve Jobs always said.
|
| I was stuck once in a cabin in the woods with an old
| Android phone. I'm glad it still worked, and that people
| curating software experiences for it had more empathy --
| and more business sense -- than this comment displays.
| andai wrote:
| What did Steve Jobs say?
| _dain_ wrote:
| ebay
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| I like to imagine the gaming landscape if developers were
| forced to work on 5yr old hardware.
| extrabajs wrote:
| You mean like consoles?
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| Kinda, games ported to mobile also.
| nottorp wrote:
| Sometimes I have the feeling AAAs can be better optimized
| than Unity based indies.
|
| It's probably a bit better than when Unity was new. I do
| remember the first x-com remake in 2012 was lasting longer
| on battery than $random_unity_indie.
| MarsIronPI wrote:
| I agree, but it's nice to be able to run LLMs locally on my
| laptop. LLMs are actually the only reason I'm looking to
| upgrade my 2013 hardware.
| mrbonner wrote:
| Hah. When I worked for a very big Just Print Money bank circa
| 2008, they gave me, a SDE with the Lenovo ThinkPads running
| Windows with 4GB of RAM and a bonus of Lotus Notes for email.
| This thing was slower than molasses. Not to mention because
| we had an offshore team in India. every morning every
| engineer would begin the day with syncing the Subversion
| repo. My team was in central US but we had to connect to a
| proxy in NYC for network traffic inspection. This makes the
| sync over 45 minutes long. Repeat the same for every SDE,
| from both sides of the world, and you can guess the amount of
| time wasted.
|
| I don't think I would want to work in that environment
| anymore.
| ashdksnndck wrote:
| I think for this plan to work you'd have to force the
| developers of Xcode to work on the 4 Gb machines first. If
| they could do that, the rest would follow naturally.
| kccqzy wrote:
| > It might be worthwhile to ensure that a web app you're
| developing will work on a less powerful machine
|
| If that's your goal this machine is still too powerful. Web
| apps generally care about single thread performance. The
| machine has a single thread performance that exceeds any and
| all Intel/AMD processors, according to Geekbench (A18 Pro:
| 3445; Ryzen 9 9950X: 3385). My own test for ensuring my web app
| performs well involves a machine less than half as fast, and my
| web app runs with all assertions turned on.
| zparky wrote:
| > The machine has a single thread performance that exceeds
| any and all Intel/AMD processors
|
| Not true at all: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/single-thread/
| mmcnl wrote:
| True for Geekbench.
| fsh wrote:
| Which notoriously favors anything made by Apple.
| NetMageSCW wrote:
| Said only by those that don't favor Apple.
| whycome wrote:
| I have a macbook pro m1 with 8gb ram and it has been
| surprisingly good for all kinds of work. And I've had it since
| about 2020.
| whstl wrote:
| I have the same, and I probably won't get another that soon.
| I have used it for dev work daily for 6 years.
| solarkraft wrote:
| It's not even a less powerful device. It has the same
| performance as the M1, which is still a beast.
| faitswulff wrote:
| There are multiple videos out there of reviewers running
| multiple "Pro" apps at the same time on the Neo. It's an
| impressive machine.
| nottorp wrote:
| So the force touch stuff has also been available on Apple laptop
| trackpads?
|
| Damned if i ever noticed, and all my laptops since like 2013 have
| been Apple.
|
| I knew I had it on one of my previous iPhones but there it was an
| annoyance because I never knew what was going to happen on a
| touch.
| nerdjon wrote:
| It is also a critical part of watchOS.
|
| I am still sad that they stopped putting it into iPhone, I
| think the tech is great and the watch really proves what can be
| done with it when it is a fundamental part of the hardware and
| the OS can be built around it. But we never had a situation
| that every compatible iPhone had force touch so everything that
| could be done with it had to work in other ways.
|
| I think the iPad made that even more complicated since I doubt
| we would have ever gotten it on a screen that large, if it
| would have even worked.
|
| As far as it being on the trackpad, it is honestly pretty wild
| when you realize it. It does an incredible job of faking
| feeling like it is actually moving. Was similar with the fake
| home button that some iPhone's had for a little while.
| losvedir wrote:
| I remember being totally flummoxed when I was trying to
| figure out why my trackpad wasn't clicking when the machine
| was off. I had no idea it wasn't a mechanical lever anymore!
| system7rocks wrote:
| I notice they are sold out at MicroCenter - I was hoping to go
| look at one in person today.
| drnick1 wrote:
| > You cannot buy an x86 PC laptop in the $600-700 price range
| that competes with the MacBook Neo on any metric -- performance,
| display quality, audio quality, or build quality. And certainly
| not software quality.
|
| I would argue the opposite: while Apple hardware is generally
| excellent, it is the software that leaves to be desired. Apple
| has also been consistently pushing the industry in a dangerous
| direction (walled gardens with app stores, excessive power over
| developers and users). MacOS is also very behind Linux these days
| in terms of app compatibility (especially games).
|
| I won't be buying a Neo before a compatible Linux distro is
| confirmed. If the stock OS can't be replaced for one reason or
| another, it's dead on arrival as far as I am concerned.
| Teever wrote:
| How do you reconcile the fact that that Apple will sell
| millions of these devices without a compatible Linux
| distribution shipping for years if ever with your claim about
| it being DOA?
|
| Like sure it's DOA to you, but in what world does that really
| matter when it's going to sell so well?
| bigyabai wrote:
| The same way I reconcile the fact that the 11" Macbook sold
| millions of devices; consumers don't care. They don't buy
| Macs as a conscious evaluation of what the device is capable
| of or how well it was made. Even the 2019 16" Macbook Pro,
| arguably the worst Mac ever sold, has millions of units
| floating around in Obsoleteland.
|
| Personally I agree with the parent's comment. I used to buy
| Macs, but nowadays Apple alienates me. I'm one of the
| millions that _don 't_ buy a Mac because the hardware is
| gimped by arbitrary software limitations. Unless Apple
| changes that stance, I'm a lost customer. Cupertino has the
| market share statistics, they know where to find me.
| pa7ch wrote:
| Its a shame there isn't more goodwill for some companies to
| bankroll a project like asahi linux. Keeping up with reverse
| engineering apple silicon seems like a very large task.
| nektro wrote:
| asahi is great and i hope they keep going but i can't help
| but wonder why apple appears to be fully singular in their
| arm dominance
| duskwuff wrote:
| > i can't help but wonder why apple appears to be fully
| singular in their arm dominance
|
| I have to imagine that a big part of it is the company can
| plan and act as a single unit. The teams building the CPU,
| the computers which house that CPU, and the operating
| system and software that'll run on those computers are all
| working together, and can plan new features which cut
| across those boundaries. Other ARM CPU/system manufacturers
| don't have that advantage.
| gedy wrote:
| My hope is they can extend support for the A chips as Asahi
| Fedora has been splendid for my M1 Pro
| ezst wrote:
| Same here, MacBooks are decent hardware but nowhere near so
| superior as to justify all the downsides and increasingly dark
| patterns Apple has been pushing left and right.
| gehsty wrote:
| I agree that it isn't as good as it was but compared to
| windows (with adds in the start menu, and two different
| settings menus for a decade as examples) it's still better.
| More of a glass of warm cheap whiskey, than a glass of cool
| ice water in hell.
| carabiner wrote:
| Is 2026 the year of the linux desktop?
|
| Can I update video drivers in Linux without seeing a console?
| OS X updates them automatically where it's a non-issue.
| jitl wrote:
| It's been Year Of The Linux Handheld for gaming since 2022,
| the best platform to play games is Steam Deck where updates
| are clicking "Update" in the System panel. You can run either
| Bazzite or SteamOS on your own hardware, although I haven't
| tried that.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| The best platform, provided the games you want to play
| actually work and work well. Many do not, even some popular
| ones.
|
| I own a steam deck and love it, but please, let's temper
| the enthusiasm with realism.
| Certhas wrote:
| Updating video drivers in Ubuntu is so so so much easier than
| under Windows it's ridiculous.
|
| Windows has more drivers for more things, but if Linux has
| drivers (e.g. you buy a Laptop with Linux support) then
| driver management is massively easier.
|
| I spent god knows how many hours getting the windows drivers
| for my last self built gaming PC working. Linux I just
| installed and was done. In reality the Windows experience was
| also a lot worse than having to drop to the console
| occasionally. It definitely required more in depth knowledge,
| even if everything was UI driven...
| Arainach wrote:
| Unless you have very specialized needs, the driver
| experience on Windows is "turn the machine on". The driver
| update experience is "connect to the internet" and
| occasionally "reboot". That's it.
|
| Linux is significantly easier than it was 20 years ago but
| still not as easy in general.
| magic_hamster wrote:
| In some distros you have rolling updates where it happens for
| you and you're always on cutting edge.
| mmcnl wrote:
| Agreed, macOS has hardly improved in the past decade. The only
| improvements are about ecosystem integration, which I don't
| really care about. Everything else is stuck in the 2010s. UI
| has regressed if you ask me.
| jeremycarter wrote:
| The tab key doesn't even work consistently across apps and
| screens.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| What improvements has Windows made in the last decade? I
| think what you're describing is a symptom of modern software
| development as a whole.
| Aperocky wrote:
| You get AI EMBEDDED EXPLORER! Just wait 2 seconds for LLM
| to open up your folder.
|
| Oh and don't forget to watch the ads.
| rekabis wrote:
| Ecosystem integration is _the shining difference_ between
| Apple and others, as it is radically better than any other
| available implementation.
|
| I would argue that ecosystem integration is the only primary
| consideration that you need to use at the top/first-culling-
| step of the flowchart to either include or discount Apple
| products in any purchasing decision. Anything else is
| secondary, and has workarounds.
|
| > UI has regressed
|
| Honestly, I love the UI of MacOS 9.2.2 the most. But I don't
| have a Time Machine or Elon Musk levels of wealth to chart a
| different course.
|
| And sure, some UI decisions of late have been questionable.
| That is always the case with non-niche products that don't
| have highly focused and largely conforming users. Apple moved
| out of that category back in the early 2000s, and it is
| forced to make the same UI tradeoffs that Microsoft makes.
|
| I actually don't mind the modern UI, and aside from a few
| warts I think they're going in a very user-friendly direction
| even if power users feel slighted and abandoned.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > MacOS is also very behind Linux these days in terms of app
| compatibility (especially games).
|
| For the average consumer looking for a $599 MacBook Neo, Mac is
| the better choice for apps they actually use.
|
| Linux can be used for gaming with a lot of titles, but both Mac
| and Linux are too far behind Windows or consoles to be
| considered as gaming machines.
| bigyabai wrote:
| The Linux gaming runtime is free, much like Windows
| redistributables. macOS gets singled-out for not having
| DXVK/Proton, and rightfully so.
| drnick1 wrote:
| > but both Mac and Linux are too far behind Windows or
| consoles to be considered as gaming machines.
|
| That's absolutely not true, the vast majority of Windows
| games now run flawlessly on Linux via Proton. This is
| especially true for the kind of games you can expect to run
| on such modest hardware, i.e. not AAA games with kernel-level
| anticheat.
| ndr42 wrote:
| I agree in general with your first point.
|
| Regarding gaming I disagree: my gaming needs (using a Mac for
| everything else) are fully satisfied by an additional steam
| deck, a "console" running linux. Of the top of my head I know
| only of one game I would like to run it on the steam deck but
| can't.
| intrasight wrote:
| > it is the software that leaves to be desired
|
| That is how I had interpreted "And certainly not software
| quality" - that the PC not only competes but crushes the Mac.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Most consumers don't use Linux, and MacOS is far ahead of
| Windows IMO -- and I use all three OSs (and have for 30 years)
|
| I disagree that the software leaves to be desired
|
| Just an example, I'll take Apple's Office suite (Pages, etc.)
| over MS Office any day - or LibreOffice.
| magic_hamster wrote:
| I fully agree. My use case sees a fairly intensive use of
| MacOS, Linux and Windows, and out of all these, MacOS is the
| worst experience for me, and that's saying a lot when I prefer
| to use Windows 11 over MacOS.
|
| Macs have very strong advantages but the software, the OS is
| absolutely infuriating. There's so many annoyances over regular
| use. You can remedy some of them with third party software
| (which should have been just system settings), but not all, and
| by the way some of these cost money for stupidly basic
| settings.
|
| Finally and probably most painful, is Apple's constant push to
| update your software stack and things just stop working, and
| they expect you to keep chasing their decisions. You can't
| really build anything for Apple that's meant to last. It's
| exhausting. Meanwhile Windows can run programs from 30 years
| ago and Linux has extremely efficient, beautifully implemented
| software from all eras probably already installed in your
| Distro.
| dutchCourage wrote:
| This depends heavily on your use case. I'd get rid of Windows
| entirely if I could. For most people I'd say MacOS is the
| most sane and plug and play experience. The
| email/browser/note taking experience is better than on
| Windows, and easier than on Linux.
|
| This gets less and less true when you start pluging
| peripherals and wanting to change the default behavior or use
| certain apps. But then they're not the target of the Neo.
| Aperocky wrote:
| Those extremely efficient and beautifully implemented
| software runs in macOS, probably from the same source code.
|
| The only GUI I use on Mac is browser, so I never felt
| anything - maybe the only thing that I don't deal with on
| linux is the weird requirement of xcode, which is mostly a
| chore that you do once. Still can't beat the hardware.
| kimbernator wrote:
| for 99% of consumers, the question is windows vs. macOS, and
| that's all there is to it. Between the two on a budget-price
| laptop, it's no competition.
| bean469 wrote:
| > I won't be buying a Neo before a compatible Linux distro is
| confirmed.
|
| You mean confirmed by Apple? I think that seems unlikely
| drnick1 wrote:
| No, just supported by, say, Asahi.
| spiderice wrote:
| Sorry but if "Switch to Linux" is a valid suggestion, then you
| most likely aren't talking to someone the Neo is marketed to.
| As good as Linux is, non technical people still should not
| switch to it. It needs to be MacOS or Windows.
| drnick1 wrote:
| Why? Like many people I don't do serious work on my laptop.
| It is used for Web browsing, email, and to SSH into other
| machines. A simple, affordable, but well built machine like
| the Neo would be ideal for this, on the condition that I can
| run Linux on it. I currently use an aging XPS in that
| capacity and the Neo would be quite compelling as a
| substitute.
| railgunmerlin wrote:
| your average neo buyer doesn't know what ssh is and would
| probably like media apps ranging from capcut to lightroom.
| acedTrex wrote:
| I buy a macbook for the hardware and tolerate macos. I mostly
| do terminal stuff so i can largely avoid it.
| flyrain wrote:
| As a developer, MacOS is super reliable to me. I love Linux,
| but there are always somethings not working, which drive me
| crazy.
| saagarjha wrote:
| > The Neo doesn't have a hardware indicator light for the camera.
| The indication for "camera in use" is only in the menu bar.
| There's a privacy/security implication for this omission.
| According to Apple, the hardware indicator light for camera-in-
| use on MacBooks, iPhones, and iPads cannot be circumvented by
| software. If the camera is on, that light comes on, and no
| software can disable it. Because the Neo's only camera-in-use
| indicator is in the menu bar, that seems obviously possible to
| circumvent via software.
|
| iPhone and iPad does not have a hardware indicator light
| zarzavat wrote:
| Arguably with SIP a hardware indicator light is not strictly
| necessary, the OS could force the indicator pixels to be lit.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| Isn't the argument that a hardware indicator light is (more)
| immune to bugs? If its just software, you're a software
| exploit/bug away from finding a way to access the sensor
| without tripping the software light.
| halapro wrote:
| Yes but also this has never been an issue on any phones
| (i.e. never heard a complaint), and you take that to the
| toilet. By comparison a laptop camera has much less access
| to your private life.
|
| People who are truly worried about cameras will cover it
| regardless of indicator.
| bigfishrunning wrote:
| This depends on how the light is implemented -- if it's
| implemented in the camera module itself it's pretty
| bulletproof, but i would bet it's just a gpio to the
| processor on most of these devices and controlled by the os
| anyway. I could be wrong about that, but I err on the side
| of caution. I keep my phone in a bag most of the time.
|
| Treat every gun as if it's loaded, and every camera as if
| it's filming.
| hinkley wrote:
| That's going to be a problem for the education market though.
| matthewfcarlson wrote:
| There is a _ton_ of fascinating work to make the "software"
| camera in use indicator just as secure if not more secure than
| an LED attached to the power lines of the camera. Apple hasn't
| publicly talked about it much but here are two sources that
| aren't terrible.
|
| https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.09272
| https://randomaugustine.medium.com/on-apple-exclaves-d683a2c...
| https://daringfireball.net/linked/2025/03/19/on-apple-exclav...
|
| We've seen a few examples on HN lately (Coruna iOS Exploit Kit)
| of nation state level exploits in the hands of financially
| motivated organizations. I'm not free of bias here but the
| industry is quickly headed towards a reckoning in terms of
| security over the next few years.
| mohsen1 wrote:
| It's possible that they use the camera to measure room
| brightness
| asadm wrote:
| Soo has there been work to run hackintosh on an iPhone??
| xp84 wrote:
| > You cannot buy an x86 PC laptop in the $600-700 price range
| that competes with the MacBook Neo on any metric -- performance,
| display quality, audio quality, or build quality.
|
| Interesting metrics, though I'd add that if you count storage and
| memory as metrics, it'd be hard to find a worse PC laptop. And I
| don't see why we should artificially exclude ARM PC laptops from
| the comparison.
|
| https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-vivobook-14-wuxga-lapto...
|
| 2x the RAM and 2x the storage isn't meaningless to a lot of
| people.
|
| The PC has a single-core geekbench around 2100 single / 10,000
| multicore. The Neo is apparently in the range of 3600 / 9,000
| multicore.
|
| No arguments on the Mac's screen being way nicer though. However,
| the _low-end computer market_ - unlike most of us on HN - has
| never cared about pixel density, color accuracy, or really any
| screen specs other than size (Looks like the Asus has the Mac by
| an inch on that spec).
|
| Bottom line, for a high-end Chromebook replacement (literally
| everything is done in the cloud, so storage doesn't matter, and
| only running a browser, so RAM isn't a big deal), as long as it's
| for someone who will take care of such a delicate device, the Neo
| is pretty great. For everyone else, it's debatable.
|
| > And certainly not software quality.
|
| This is most definitely only a little true in that Windows has
| jumped the shark lately with ads and various enshittification,
| and thus ties with Mac OS. Tahoe is without a doubt the worst Mac
| OS ever released. It's both poor quality and poorly designed.
| zarzavat wrote:
| The manufacturers don't care about display quality, because
| displays are hard and expensive. Apple has enough volume that
| they can get a custom panel.
|
| Users on the other hand, they definitely care about display
| quality more than they care about RAM. The display is the part
| you look at!
|
| If you're in store and there's a Neo with a crisp 200 PPI
| screen and a Windows laptop with a cheap screen but more RAM,
| the vast majority of consumers will choose the laptop with the
| better display. People make purchasing decisions based on feels
| and the Neo has great feels.
| fsh wrote:
| On the contrary, displays are commodity components. So much
| so that motivated enthusiasts have managed to swap better
| panels into their ThinkPads for a long time. Manufacturers
| don't prioritize display quality in cheap devices because it
| doesn't show up on the spec sheet and most customers don't
| care that much.
| zarzavat wrote:
| Consumers don't read spec sheets. My mother doesn't even
| know the difference between RAM and SSD - it's all just
| "memory" right? But she knows that when she goes to the
| Apple Store the computers are built to an impressive
| standard.
|
| Quality speaks for itself, and the way that people buy
| computers is through their eyes and fingertips, not their
| heads.
|
| Go to the Apple Store and just observe how people make
| their buying decisions. They don't just look at the spec
| sheet, they lift, type on, caress the computers. They want
| to know how it will feel to own one.
| DauntingPear7 wrote:
| I also am not a huge fan of the 256GB storage, but if someone
| doesn't already know what ram is, they really won't care and
| won't notice much. I'm a tech guy. I bought an M1 air with
| 256GB storage and 8GB RAM. I was able to do development and
| mobile development fine. I never encountered RAM related
| slowdowns. I have an iCloud subscription because I don't want
| to manage my own NAS. This is a heavier use case than what,
| say, a normal college student will do with it, and it worked
| just fine for me. This is by far the best laptop I have seen in
| this bracket. If I was just heading to college today, and I
| didn't have the money for a Pro or Air, I would 100% get this
| far before a windows laptop.
| officeplant wrote:
| >And I don't see why we should artificially exclude ARM PC
| laptops from the comparison.
|
| As an ARM enthusiast who has tried a lot of WinARM, I think at
| this point I really struggle to believe MS has a single care in
| the world for improving quality of life for WinARM users. They
| sure do market it, and the laptops do work most of the time.
| I've just never had any other computers shit the bed when it
| comes to graphics drivers like a Qualcomm powered PC. Website
| with too many video/gifs playing? Screen whites out/all the
| video boxes go pink and explorer resets. Open up the gif search
| in Discord? Basically a coin flip chance its going to kill the
| graphics driver and reset explorer again. I had a Dell Inspiron
| with the Qualcomm 8CX Gen2 that could reliably be crashed just
| by quickly scrolling twitter on a video posting heavy day.
|
| I would rather take a Mediatek powered Chromebook any other day
| until the Neo showed up and started to approach the sub $500
| ARM chromebook price point.
| bdbdbdb wrote:
| There's no point taking any Mac opinion from John Gruber, he's
| basically just Apple PR. He can't be objective
| Reason077 wrote:
| > _"Once or twice a day I need to manually bump the display
| brightness up or down."_
|
| This is a daily, albeit minor, annoyance on my MacBook Air too.
| philip1209 wrote:
| Imagine if future versions had a sim card slot for data-only
| connections. That would be killer - a main reason I've considered
| an iPad is for "ambient internet" wherever you go. Why has that
| phone feature not made its way to laptops?
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _The biggest shortcoming of the decade-ago MacBook "One", aside
| from the baffling decision to include just one USB-C port that
| was also its only means of charging, was the shitty performance
| of Intel's Core M chips._
|
| MMMMMMM.....I don't know. I think the biggest shortcomings of
| that laptop were super common keyboard (dustgate), SSD, USB-C
| port, display, battery, and CPU (popcorning) failure.
| intrasight wrote:
| >we're lucky it comes with a charger at all
|
| Yup
| dangus wrote:
| While the impact of the MacBook Neo is huge, this type of review
| is really screaming of an inexperienced reviewer who can't
| actually make good purchase recommendations to average people.
|
| It's really cool that this device is cheap but 8GB of RAM is the
| elephant in the room. Even non-technical web browsing users will
| notice the sluggishness coming from that spec.
|
| The moment they upgrade it to the next iPhone processor, it'll
| get 12GB of RAM, and it will need it.
|
| And the other elephant in the room that John doesn't bring up is
| the fact that you can definitely find in-warranty MacBook Air
| options for ~$700 and they'll be much better buys.
|
| You'll get more RAM, keep your Touch ID, better trackpad, better
| screen, better battery life, better speakers, better mics, I
| think even a better webcam? Maybe.
|
| That reminds me: the small battery in the Neo means that high
| screen brightness or more than light usage will more quickly
| deplete it compared to other Mac systems.
| nirava wrote:
| > Even non-technical web browsing users will notice the
| sluggishness coming from that spec.
|
| I'm sorry but this line invalidates most of your comment, to
| the point of looking like satire.
|
| We have reviews and videos of people editing 4k videos with
| glee, launching and switching between all apps at once, and
| stuff like that.
|
| I used the base M1 as a power user/developer for years when it
| came out, and the only reason I had to switch was the storage.
| Sluggishness wasn't on the top 10 issues I had with that
| device.
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| Impressive hardware for cheap. Too bad it is MacOS.
| yegle wrote:
| > The A9, in 2015, benchmarked comparably to a two-year-old
| MacBook Air from 2013. More impressively, it outperformed the
| then-new no-adjective 12-inch MacBook in single-core performance
| (by a factor of roughly 1.1x) and was only 3 percent slower in
| multi-core.
|
| Too bad that performance is (still) locked in the walled garden
| and cannot be used as a small Linux server.
| needSomeCoffee wrote:
| I do not really understand why the Walmart $599 M1 MBA comparison
| is so lost in the MSM. The Neo is the same price (without edu
| discount). The Neo CPU benchmarks slightly better until the 4W
| performance limit factors in more real-world cases (then the M1
| wins handily). So much is given up with the Neo: Worse screen,
| Worse keyboard, No TouchId, Worse Trackpad, etc. Yet Apple is
| praised for the Neo. No longer matters of course as it appears
| that the Walmart M1 is history, and we now have the Neo -- worse
| in almost every way vs. M1 MBA. The only real beneficiary is
| undoubtedly Apple's margin. I guess the MSM and Apple fanbois
| hatred of Walmart and the "losers who shop there" influences
| this, but even so. Neo only benefits Apple vs. Walmarts M1 MBA
| deal.
|
| Edit / Link:
| https://www.macworld.com/article/2986234/walmart-m1-macbook-...
| kvuj wrote:
| For me the longer software support would play a role in my
| decisions. The M1 MBA will probably lose support in 4-5 years
| whereas the Neo has a longer road ahead.
|
| Combine that with the enormously improved single core
| performance (which matters more in the real world than
| sustained load for an entry level notebook), fun colors and 499
| price tag for students and I can see the interest.
|
| The screen is good compared to the MBA (only loses P3 colors)
| but the bummer seems to be ports and the "normal" trackpad.
| nouveaux wrote:
| Why compare the M1 MBA discounted at Walmart but not give the
| same edu discount to the Neo? The target audience for Neo is
| likely people who would be able to use the edu discount.
|
| I know many people who would not care about the differences you
| have outlined and gladly pay $499 for the Neo.
| haunter wrote:
| Even cheaper if you buy from Walmart's refurb outlet, they are
| $380.
| bombcar wrote:
| I never even knew Walmart sold refurbs:
| https://www.walmart.com/ip/Restored-Apple-MacBook-Air-
| Laptop...
| testing22321 wrote:
| The Walmart M1 only exists in one country.
| ksec wrote:
| >(then the M1 wins handily).
|
| How do you came to this conclusion when both are passingly
| cooled and A19 Pro is faster. Not to mention AV1 and other
| newer codec hardware accelerator and NPU / GPU improvements.
|
| Also remember M1 MBA is may be Walmart and US only. Around the
| world most dont even get a chance to buy M1 at $599. The
| display dont have P3 but is actually brighter than M1 400 nits.
| Not sure how Keyboard is worse. Neo also have 1080P webcam
| rather than 720P.
|
| And if Walmart is selling M1 at $599, I am sure they will also
| sell Neo at lower than RSP may be even same as educational
| discount $499. And this point surely Neo would win?
|
| What a lot of people dont talk about, and may be wait until
| iFixit to confirm. Neo is basically the iPhone 17 of MacBook.
| It is perhaps the easiest to repair and cheapest MacBook for
| Apple to services.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Neo has ~5 more years of support, is not US specific from a
| specific store,comes at $100 off for students (which is a
| primary target for the product), and many of the things you say
| are worse often are a balance of tradeoffs in many ways (e.g.
| the screen on the Neo is definitely brighter).
|
| I had an M1 MacBook Air and just set a Neo up for my niece. If
| I had to pick between the two for myself I'd choose the Neo
| again.
| calf wrote:
| I woke up to see my other comment downvoted by some rando, but I
| honestly think this is the best line in the entire article and
| Gruber's wish is telling (I quote the line only here, but it is
| best read in context of the original passage):
|
| _" I wish Apple would make a MacBook that's akin to the iPhone
| Air -- crazy thin and surprisingly performant."_
|
| What this reflects is all those comments and users, myself
| included, over the years saying "I would get an iPad if only it
| could run MacOS", and the ensuing discussion to the effect of why
| Apple won't do it, the chips are just as powerful, etc. A tablet
| Mac is a lot of people's (both casual and tech) holy grail in
| portable computing, justified/sensible or not in terms of
| technology and UI form factor. Gruber's wish is precisely the
| expression of this not unpopular sentiment. And also the Tahoe
| iPad OS features is a clue that Apple knows this.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| My kids (ages 10, 14) have never used a Windows computer. They
| were introduced to computing with iPhone and iPad, and they use
| Chromebooks at school. At home I have Win, Linux and MacOS
| computers, but they've only used the MacOS ones (not interested
| in the others). I am trying to get them to use Linux, but unless
| they want to do hacking-type stuff (that's not them), then it's
| hard to sell them on it.
|
| When we buy them personal laptops (not there yet), it'll be a
| MacBook Neo (or its successor). I expect that unless they're
| forced to at work, they'll never touch a Windows computer in
| their life.
| rconti wrote:
| > because the key caps are brand new, it feels even better than
| the keyboard on my own now-four-years-old MacBook Pro, the most-
| used key caps on which are now a little slick
|
| Honestly, I have a hard time typing on a new Apple laptop; it
| doesn't feel right until the keycaps are a bit worn.
| voy707 wrote:
| RIP Microslop
| capricio_one wrote:
| I wonder if this will get RISC-V adoption on the roadmap of
| competitors. We had a thread in the last 24 hours over how slow
| as molasses it is, but honestly x86 isn't the way to go. I like
| that the AMD x64 literature tries to push down on the legacy
| cruft but some of it is evident in the ISA which is harder to
| ignore, like default behaviours of registers and other things
| that are left over for backwards compat and as such everything
| around it suffers in a thousand broken windows sort of way.
|
| nb I haven't delved too deep into RISCV but I am under a general
| impression it did away with all this. My concern is the layers
| that are added will turn it into a CISCV over time.
| listless wrote:
| Would it kill this guy to make his site responsive? It's like one
| prompt.
| tasuki wrote:
| > You cannot buy an x86 PC laptop in the $600-700 price range
| that competes with the MacBook Neo on any metric -- performance,
| display quality, audio quality, or build quality. And certainly
| not software quality.
|
| My old x86 "PC" laptop with the $0 Debian _certainly_ compares
| positively to Apple in terms of software quality.
| kilpikaarna wrote:
| As much as I like the form factor and price point of the MB
| Neo, I just can't accept a computer that needs to phone home
| when reinstalling the (one approved) OS.
|
| Bought yet another second hand 11" MBA instead. Now looking at
| SMT soldering equipmemt for doing ipgrades and repairs.
| yalogin wrote:
| This was always going to be the case. Apple has perfected the art
| of finding slots for different use cases and consumer buckets
| just as well as they have perfected the hardware and software.
| This is a no brained for most home use and particularly
| education. Only issue for home use is photos and able to process
| an entire photo database at once and doing ML operations on them.
| Of course apple's photos is the one black mark in their software
| stack, or may be something I don't like.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| It's remarkable to me that this shows what an iPhone chip has
| been capable of, and a reminder about how strongly Apple works to
| keep phone, tablet, and laptop in separate segments. Even though
| they share the same chips.
|
| Going to be signficiantly harder for Qualcomm X2 Elite to make a
| splash, given the price here. I have high hopes for the X2 Elite
| Extreme (even if it is going to be cursed with incredible
| difficulty trying to get each of these non-ACPI / DeviceTree
| systems running Linux). But this raises the bar signficiantly.
| halapro wrote:
| People keep calling this "a phone chip" when M1 was literally
| "a phone chip" to begin with, based on A14. It's entirely
| reasonable that in 4 generations of "phone chips", the A18
| reaches the speed that M1 did during its "one-generation"
| rework.
| Fraterkes wrote:
| I feel corny being so positive about a megacompany, but I bought
| my first Macbook air half a year ago after a life of PC's, and it
| has been genuinly surprising to use something made by a huge
| company that is constantly better than I expected.
| MeetingsBrowser wrote:
| I have a macbook air from 2022 and it is easily the "best"
| computer I have ever owned.
|
| Its portable. It has a great keyboard, screen, and battery
| life. No fans or overheating. No issues with the operating
| system or installing software I need.
|
| I can even use it for some lighter software development
| directly, and for everything else I can ssh back to a beefier
| machine.
|
| If I weren't already so happy with this macbook air, I would be
| ecstatic for the neo.
| panos_news wrote:
| _" I'll just say it: I think I'm done with iPads. Why bother when
| Apple is now making a crackerjack Mac laptop that starts at just
| $600?"_
|
| So, Gruber, you're telling me that you didn't have a laptop
| before because of the price and you had to settle for an iPad?
| nobrains wrote:
| No mention of no backlit in keyboard?
| hinkley wrote:
| I swear to god every time I go to Gruber's website he's narrowed
| the text another ten pixels.
| rekabis wrote:
| I am perfectly fine with many of the technological restrictions
| on this device, and think it represents a great balance.
|
| However, I think that two will bring sour tastes to people's
| metaphorical mouths much more than expected: the RAM and drive
| space.
|
| There should have been a 16Gb option. Nosebleed the price if you
| have to, or include a SODIMM slot if needed, but the option
| should have been there to expand the memory to 16Gb either on
| spec or at a later date. Because each version of MacOS gets
| weightier and more demanding of hardware - Windows isn't the only
| resource hog out there - and at 8Gb the pain will begin to be
| felt long before the 7-year usability cycle comes to an end.
|
| There should have been a 1Tb option. Not because people use that
| much drive space - many don't - but because 1Tb is the level
| which provides enough cells in parallel to properly saturate the
| PCIe bus, ensuring maximum performance. Not always at that 1Tb
| level, and not on every machine. But typically 1Tb or above,
| rather than below. Even if it required a hairdryer to unstick the
| original due to the constrained space not permitting a lock-down
| screw, the drive should have been either replaceable or with the
| size as (again) a nosebleed-price option at provisioning.
|
| Because while I see every other compromise as acceptable, it is
| those two which make me hesitate on getting this as a _long-term_
| secondary /casual system.
|
| Other than that, this is a laptop which can only goose Apple's
| further adoption among students and casual users.
| ksec wrote:
| This is going to be against a lot of the comments and opinion
| posted on HN here.
|
| The best selling Macbook in history, as percentage of total
| MacBook sold is the 11" $899 MacBook Air. That was when Apple
| learned people are willing to give up on performance and features
| just to get a Mac, or just to use OSX.
|
| And despite the declining state of macOS, as Gruber said it is
| still zillions times better than Windows.
|
| Apple Mac has always been more expensive than PC. But they are
| also better built. No Laptop has decent trackpad until M$ pull
| R&D into their surface book. PC Speaker was appalling until
| YouTuber start to state the obvious how MacBook speakers were
| better. But none of these matters, at the end of the day most
| consumer dont understand spec. They see that is the cheapest
| MacBook, it looks good and works, just like the MacBook Air 11",
| if they could afford to buy a $500 laptop, they will spend extra
| $100 on Apple. Even if the spec on paper is arguably worse.
|
| And if we are really talking about spec and compare. If you even
| want _some_ after sales services, you would at least have to look
| at Dell, HP or ASUS. And not some random Chinese brand.
|
| These 1920 * 1080 15" screen is not a decent screen. Even
| ignoring P3 colour, you will have to find a screen with 200PPI+,
| let alone Apple do it with 220PPI.
|
| If you want to use Amazon as comparison, they have been selling
| M4 MacBook Air at $200 discount sometimes $250 for most of the
| time. I have no idea why, but I would not be surprised the $699
| model be selling at $599, same as EDU price. Then at this point
| the MacBook Neo is extremely competitively priced. You get better
| screen, faster CPU for less storage and less ram.
|
| And let's fast forward a year. A Neo with A19 Pro as used in
| iPhone 17 Air and Pro with 12GB RAM, Double the SSD Speed. WiFI
| 7. Assuming that is true, I dont even see anything on the PC
| roadmap that is competitive, especially when they are all facing
| DRAM pricing pressure. ( Although I also think Apple will bump
| A19 Pro version by additional $100 )
|
| Forgetting all that for a second, not a single review look _into_
| the actual Neo hardware. We will have to wait for iFixit for
| detail teardown. But is should be the easiest to fix Mac, and
| designed to be simple to manufacture as they said in the
| interview. The chassis is likely heavier due to this process but
| could see further refinement. The mechanical trackpad is work of
| genius, I am not sure if this is Apple only innovation or
| something that is on the market already. That trackpad alone is
| 150g, that is nearly one tenth of the weight of whole Neo.
|
| The Neo is, as far as I am aware perhaps the first Apple product
| that was designed and engineered to be as practical and cost
| effective as possible. True to their words this isn't some cost
| reduction exercise using old design and components. This makes
| Neo the most boring Apple product on paper, but sometimes boring
| is good. And I agree with MKBHD, this is perhaps the most
| disruptive Apple product since the original iPhone.
|
| There are roughly 1.5 - 2 billions Windows PC in use today. And
| Apple has at best 150 to 200M Mac user. So there is plenty of
| room to grow. I would be happy if they could double that in 5
| years time.
|
| I am really liking everything this New Apple is coming through so
| far. Molly Anderson as Industrial Engineer. John Ternus on
| Hardware Engineering. Not sure if Steve Lemay is great but my gut
| feeling is he would restore a lot of Apple HID.
|
| The only thing missing is software ( And may be Services lead ).
| I know Craig Federighi is popular on HN and internet but I
| haven't liked a single software engineering direction since he
| took charge. Stop adding features and Resume driven development
| and start fixing bugs.
|
| May be lastly, Tim Cook has never been any good at picking
| person. But all these new selection seems to be great. This cant
| be a coincidence. I am wondering if there are some additional
| changes in the background at Apple we dont see.
|
| I have been giving Tim Cook's Apple plenty benefits of doubt but
| losing faith steadily for 10 years. This is the first time ever
| since Steve Jobs passed away I am excited to see changes in
| direction. The name Neo is just great. Truly something new.
| ErneX wrote:
| Here's a teardown:
|
| https://youtu.be/5k7Lv7f-5CQ
| jollyjerry wrote:
| This won't happen, but I would love an Apple implementation of
| the Samsung Dex - phone soc that can dock into a laptop or
| desktop enclosure.
| flenserboy wrote:
| This does look great for its use case, but I'd love a version as
| a latter-day eMate.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I grabbed a Neo w/ the edu discount for my niece. Very pleased
| with it on day 1.
|
| So far I think the only thing I can add to the conversation about
| it is the only real disappointment is that the only upgrade
| option is to go to 512G w/ touch ID for $100. That's not to say
| the 8 GB option was bad by any means, it actually works even
| better than I was expecting, but it still leaves a big gap on the
| way up to the base model Air at $1100 and the splash could have
| been twice as large.
| j45 wrote:
| If the Neo had been the next 12" macbook (2.0 lb), it would be
| the first apple product I would have lined up for.
|
| The article sums up why quite well:
|
| "The biggest shortcoming of the decade-ago MacBook "One", aside
| from the baffling decision to include just one USB-C port that
| was also its only means of charging, was the shitty performance
| of Intel's Core M chips. Those chips were small enough and low-
| power enough to fit in the MacBook's thin and fan-less enclosure,
| but they were slow as balls. It was a huge compromise for a
| laptop that carried a somewhat premium price. Today, performance,
| performance-per-watt, and physical chip size are all solved
| problems with Apple Silicon. I'd consider paying double the price
| of the Neo for a MacBook with similar specs (but more RAM and
| better I/O) that weighed 2.0 pounds or less. I'd buy such a
| MacBook not to replace my 14-inch MacBook Pro, but to replace my
| 2018 11-inch iPad Pro as my "carry around the house" secondary
| computer.5"
| amatecha wrote:
| Closer and closer to the desktop and mobile devices running the
| same OS...
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