[HN Gopher] The yoghurt delivery women combatting loneliness in ...
___________________________________________________________________
The yoghurt delivery women combatting loneliness in Japan
Author : ranit
Score : 173 points
Date : 2026-03-07 13:12 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| alephnerd wrote:
| This seems to be a submarine article - all the images and quotes
| seem to be directly sourced from Yakult Honsha's strategic comms
| department.
|
| Edit: yep, appears Yakult has just kicked off an ad campaign
| putting Yakult Ladies front and center [0]
|
| [0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8HNY7Ta4dA
| cubefox wrote:
| Completely unclear what "submarine article" could mean.
| pja wrote:
| Referencing this PG article:
| https://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
| adampunk wrote:
| Sometimes I forget that this place is a cult.
| haunter wrote:
| This is an ad
| nephihaha wrote:
| From the BBC no less. We were just discussing how uncommercial
| they are.
| cubefox wrote:
| I thought the BBC was state funded and didn't have to rely on
| undisclosed sponsorships.
| MagicMoonlight wrote:
| They probably aren't even getting paid for it, they're just
| falling for shill posts for free.
| cubefox wrote:
| I'm not sure which would be worse.
| rounce wrote:
| The BBC is not state funded, it's a public broadcaster
| primarily funded by the general public, via the (admittedly
| outdated) TV licence fee system. Although the media output
| for the UK is non-commercial, it does have commercial
| operations and interactions though and they are mostly
| centred around the content produced for overseas consumption.
| As this post is on the .com domain where the international
| content exists (and which runs ads), I presume it is part of
| the paid content side of things.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Correct. The .co.uk version has this disclaimer:
|
| > This website is produced by BBC Global News Ltd, a
| commercial company that is part of BBC Studios, owned by
| the BBC (and just the BBC). No money from the licence fee
| was used to create this website. The money we make from it
| is re-invested to help fund the BBC's international
| journalism.
| nephihaha wrote:
| The BBC is a state broadcaster which claims to be
| autonomous, but that doesn't apply when it comes to foreign
| policy or the royal family.
| ViktorRay wrote:
| This isn't true. The content of the BBC is independent of
| the UK government. Even for the royal family and for
| foreign policy.
|
| I am not British so I could be wrong however. If you have
| evidence that the BBC lacks autonomy when it comes to
| foreign policy or to the royal family please share it
| with the rest of us.
| umanwizard wrote:
| > The BBC is not state funded, it's a public broadcaster
| primarily funded by the general public, via the (admittedly
| outdated) TV licence fee system.
|
| How is that different from being state-funded? Everything
| state-funded is paid for by the general public, through
| taxes. That's part of what being a state _is_ : an
| organization that forces people to pay taxes and directs
| them to various programs.
|
| Are you claiming that the TV license fee isn't a tax? It's
| money that the state makes you pay so that it can fund
| something.
| nephihaha wrote:
| The state has changed it from a criminal offence to a
| civil one. They also have to apply for a warrant to enter
| a home which takes time is legally difficult.
|
| The enforcers work for neither the BBC nor the government
| but are subcontracted out.
| rounce wrote:
| The state doesn't make me pay it because I don't watch
| live broadcast TV, therefore I don't have to pay it. It's
| not a general tax it's a hypothecated tax and is
| administered by the BBC not the UK government.
|
| Furthermore the state isn't in charge of administering it
| anyway, it's a civil matter brought about by the BBC (or
| rather the company which is subcontracted to enforce
| licencing). The BBC has the authority to do this based on
| the Royal Charter that governs it, that doesn't make it
| "state funded" or a "state broadcaster".
| umanwizard wrote:
| > The state doesn't make me pay it because I don't watch
| live broadcast TV, therefore I don't have to pay it.
|
| There are plenty of taxes that only some people have to
| pay, for example, the fee to register a car.
|
| > Furthermore the state isn't in charge of administering
| it anyway, it's a civil matter brought about by the BBC
| (or rather the company which is subcontracted to enforce
| licencing). The BBC has the authority to do this based on
| the Royal Charter that governs it
|
| I'm trouble understanding how this doesn't make it part
| of the state? It is a 100% state-owned entity to which
| the state has granted (in a "Royal Charter") the ability
| to collect taxes... the distinction you're trying to draw
| seems meaningless to me.
|
| Sure there may be two separate entities, one called "The
| UK Government" and one called "The BBC" where neither is
| part of the other, but structurally I don't see how you
| can claim that they're not both part of "the State" in
| general.
| cubefox wrote:
| > The BBC is not state funded, it's a public broadcaster
| primarily funded by the general public, via the (admittedly
| outdated) TV licence fee system.
|
| If the fee is mandatory, it works similar to a tax, in
| which case it would be more correct than incorrect to say
| the BBC is state funded.
| layer8 wrote:
| Public broadcasting is usually only partially publicly
| funded, and also funds itself with ads and content
| licensing. And one normally speaks of public funding in
| that context, not of state funding. There is furthermore
| an important difference between public broadcasting and
| state media, where for the latter it may be more common
| to use the term state-funded.
| cubefox wrote:
| Public funding means essentially the same as state
| funding, just the connotation is more positive.
| tacet wrote:
| To add, public broadcaster often is collective (state)
| funded, but it is supposed to be independed from state.
|
| How much media can or rather may diverge from state
| opinion depends country to country.
| Nursie wrote:
| BBC.com is a commercial service aimed at people outside of
| the UK
| cjs_ac wrote:
| From the footer:
|
| > This website is produced by BBC Global News Ltd, a
| commercial company that is part of BBC Studios, owned by the
| BBC (and just the BBC). No money from the licence fee was
| used to create this website. The money we make from it is re-
| invested to help fund the BBC's international journalism.
| RenThraysk wrote:
| In the UK, the bbc.com link redirects to bbc.co.uk and the
| notification footer auto closes before even have a chance
| to read it.
|
| And if it is an ad, doesn't the FTC require it to be
| labelled as such?
| rounce wrote:
| Why would the US FTC have any jurisdiction?
| RenThraysk wrote:
| Because of US audience.
|
| There was a case where UK based influencer got into FTC
| trouble for the CSGO Lotto gambling site. He was
| promoting it without disclosing he had a stake in the
| site.
| rounce wrote:
| CSGOLotto Inc. was registered in the US.
| _delirium wrote:
| The article didn't answer my main question, which is how the
| economics work. How does it add up to have high-touch home
| delivery of $5 yogurt packages?
| trollbridge wrote:
| It's very effective if you have just a few of these, but are
| able to get lots of press from doing so that causes many other
| consumers to go and buy yourself through normal grocery
| outlets.
| MagicMoonlight wrote:
| They don't have just a few, they have 81,000 people doing it.
| VLM wrote:
| 400 yen for a ten pack is more like $2.50 than $5
|
| Typical markup in the USA is 100% from wholesaler to retail.
| Running brick and mortar is very expensive. So if Walgreens
| were selling this, the wholesale price would be $1.25. I think
| it reasonable to expect the Yakult Ladies are pulling in the
| same $1.25 per package that walgreens gets.
|
| The key, I think, is "Most of them are self-employed". Its a
| gig economy idea. You have to eat. If you're walking home from
| the store anyway (or kids school or on the way home from work
| or whatever), you may as well deliver packages for $1.25 each
| on the way home. You're walking home anyway, you may as well
| make free money on the walk.
| lysace wrote:
| Low salaries/wages. Decades of deflation.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades
| hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm wrote:
| I'm so glad I visit different countries to see what they are
| actually like so I don't get brainwashed into thinking GDP is
| anywhere near of good measure as people think it is.
| lysace wrote:
| Ah, yes, as you've figured out, the secret is that a lower
| GDP is actually better than a higher GDP. When Japan did
| (really) well economically, it was a literal hell to live
| in.
|
| /s
| hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm wrote:
| Guys look I used /s and like to be snarky. Updoots to the
| left.
|
| Edit: guy has now edited his comment like 5 times as a
| response.
| lysace wrote:
| What is your answer to the question?
|
| (Edit: "How does it add up to have high-touch home
| delivery of $5 yogurt packages?")
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I don't see a question.
|
| If you're asking about what's better than looking up GDP,
| they already said visiting the countries.
| fragmede wrote:
| That's entirely luck driven and not guided by data
| though. You could visit a foreign country, go out for a
| drink, meet a) nobody but still have a decently pleasant
| evening and b) get pickpocketed/mugged and have terrible
| time c) make some new friends and have a wonderful time
| d) eat some food that gives you anything from a delicious
| time to a mild case of indigestion to stomach bug that
| kills you. Or some other variation, but it's entirely up
| to luck who you'd meet visiting a foreign country on an
| individual basis.
| pixelready wrote:
| The case against GDP, by its own creator:
| https://gnhusa.org/gpi/the-case-against-gdp-made-by-its-
| own-...
|
| It's not that GDP is a poor measure, just that it is
| isolated as the only measure most policy is based on
| improving rather than being one metric in a portfolio of
| related metrics that balance technological progress,
| accumulation of wealth, and human thriving.
|
| As Gary Stephenson rightly points out the culture of
| Economics in modern practice is not one of open query and
| scientific skepticism, but of proselytizing. More akin to a
| religion than a science.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| GDP just measures the average wealth of a society, on the
| assumption that production equals consumption. Wealth is
| unambiguously good, but of course it fails at measuring
| the full extent of human flourishing.
|
| My take on Economists is that they keep desperately
| trying to make people understand that prices are set by
| supply vs demand dynamics, while society keeps refusing
| to understand it.
| sutterd wrote:
| Is wealth the right term here? I thought it was supposed
| to measure production, with the actual measurement
| usually spending (with qualifiers). And, when comparing
| countries, you have to account for the different
| currencies. Currencies are typically trade balanced,
| which gives a rough equivelence for buying power, but
| that is not true with the dollar because, as the
| effective reserve currency, it has international demand
| outside of trade.
| skybrian wrote:
| I suspect that the US having better investment
| opportunities than other countries (tech companies for
| example) might be more important than reserve currency
| status.
|
| People tend to pay more attention to trade than
| investment, but investment flows are just as important. A
| trade deficit often means that foreign investors are
| buying and a trade surplus goes along with people
| investing in foreign countries.
| petterroea wrote:
| I moved to Japan and have taken what is now almost a 50%
| wage decrease on account of the collapsing yen, but my life
| quality easily doubled compared to Norway. For every year I
| stay, finances will be more painful if I move back. But
| permanent residency sure sounds a lot more attractive. YMMV
| if you're from more interesting places
| computably wrote:
| That's really surprising, I was under the impression that
| Scandinavian QOL was also quite high. What are the major
| contributing factors to the 2x QOL?
| petterroea wrote:
| - Nice things are within walkable distance living in a
| major city. In Norway we live mostly in suburbs. Living
| in the city is unaffordable. Zoning matters. Being able
| to just walk out of my apartment and do things
| spontaneously in my own area is a life changer. I can't
| describe how much the change in mindset from "I'll do a
| half day trip into town" to "I'll pop two train stops
| over" did for me
|
| - private individuals can still afford to run their own
| stores and cafes. In Oslo it's all commercial "food
| concepts" and chains. Authentic is unwanted - a Japanese
| restaurant trying to be authentic was recently kicked out
| of their place recently for not cutting corners to make a
| good enough profit - the property owner took a % of every
| sale + alcohol sales and wasn't happy, so they fabricated
| reasons to cancel the contract. Eating out in Japan is
| affordable even on a Japanese salary and I have access to
| basically any cuisine you can imagine - and the foreign
| food is often made by immigrants from that country (with
| some exceptions). In Norway the biggest thing in tacos is
| currently a Swedish chain. In Japan I can befriend my
| local restaurant owners.
|
| - niche interests are hard in Norway. Everyone in your
| circle shows up for the once a year interesting artist
| that isn't already a huge pop artist on a LiveNation
| tour. Tariffs are high (yes, watching the whole "who pays
| tariffs" debate has been mind numbing), effectively
| 25-50% including fees, so you feel punished for being
| interested in anything not local. Which is everything.
|
| - public transport in Japan is generally great. public
| transport in Norway is horrible. The goal is to be rich
| enough to avoid it and just drive, even if parking in the
| city is easily 50$ for a few hours if you are unlucky.
| Delays all the time, but no fixes, just finger pointing.
| They stopped publishing statistics on how often trains
| were late, and didn't classify cancelled trains as
| delayed when they did publish stats. It's all just lies
| and deception to try to stop the public from being mad.
|
| - I have access to basically all the culture I want, both
| Japanese and western. Everyone wants to stop by Japan.
| Not Norway. local culture in Norway is better than before
| but still pretty dead. Everyone just consumes American
| culture. There are cool Norwegian bands and a few good
| movies but that's about it. When I say this I am often
| asked "isn't Norway a heavy metal country" and yes sure,
| but it is still a small niche. I don't know anyone my age
| who partakes.
|
| - the Norwegian hobby is football, walks in nature, or
| alcohol. I read somewhere that Norwegians drink as much
| Brits, but in a single weekend instead of averaged over a
| week. It makes sense to me. All my non tech friends'
| hobbies were basically going out and getting hammered.
| There are of course other hobbies and this is slight
| hyperbole to make a point, but in general everyone just
| gets drunk. 200 years ago there probably wasn't much
| better to do during winter, go figure. Alcohol is also a
| very big hobby in Japan, probably bigger than Norway. But
| there's more things outside alcohol as well.
|
| - loads of crime in Oslo, recently a lot of youth
| violence, including random robberies with stabbing. Much
| less of that in Japan. In Japan I will frequently find
| myself walking streets at night with women I do but know
| when I'm heading home. In Norway female friends would
| often call me in those situations just so they could
| communicate to the stranger that someone would know if
| they tried to do something. Never seen that here.
|
| - less individualism is good, to a certain degree. People
| consider others around them, and it makes things easier.
| In Norway, watching videos on speaker has almost become
| normalized on the train post-covid, especially among kids
| who had their formative years in quarantine.
|
| - there is less enshittification, app-ism, and x-as-a-
| service in my everyday life. It doesn't feel like people
| are trying to cut corners to squeeze a larger profit from
| me. Japan is a very capitalistic country, but it doesn't
| feel as doomed as the west. Yet.
|
| Most of these problems "fixed" by Japan are related to
| economy of scale. Some are policy related, and some is
| culture. In Japan I have any hobby I want at my
| fingertips because there are enough people to support
| anything. Ordering online doesn't cost a fortune in fees.
| Public transport is good for many reasons, and still
| affordable because there are many paying for it. Even
| when I was a student here I could afford to live in a
| relatively dingy but completely ok apartment where I
| could be most places I wanted to go within 30 min.
|
| I feel fulfilled and that i have no excuse not to check
| out anything I'm curious about. Norwegians are told they
| live in the best country and are the best their entire
| life, and I suspect this is why if you complain many
| Norwegians ignore it assuming it can't get better than
| this. If anything my takeaway is that going abroad and
| seeing other cultures really made me see that the
| worldview I grew up with was incomplete and prone to make
| me satisfied with what I had.
|
| Don't get me wrong, Norway is a great place to start a
| family or grow old. It's a good place to live a life
| that's centered around a family. The nature is beautiful,
| and frankly I like the snow and freezing weather - it's
| cozy! But Japan offers almost all of the same, only with
| all the benefits of scale :D.
|
| Finally. Biases:
|
| - IT job makes my life comfortable by Japanese standards,
| but not by much. I don't work at an international
| company. Japanese people also seem to generally live very
| fulfilling lives, although the rumours regarding black
| companies and similar are definitely true.
|
| - I have a nice and mature work environment that doesn't
| make me hate waking up
|
| - I have only lived in cities orders of magnitude bigger
| than Norways Capitol while in Japan
|
| - I have put a lot of (mostly passive) effort into
| learning about the country I moved to, and I know people
| who didn't who have had nasty surprises. You also should
| do your best at adjusting to how things work here and
| embrace it. I have had 0 surprises since I moved here. It
| doesn't mean I don't make mistakes. I make tonnes.
|
| - I was also somewhat into the culture, so it's not like
| I was transplanted into a completely foreign culture. I
| had things I wanted to see here. You can tell Japan has
| done a good job soft power-wise.
|
| - my Japanese reading isn't as good as it should be and
| so I don't have a habit of following local news, which
| makes me blind to a lot of smaller issues that are a more
| more visible to me in Norway
|
| The biggest thing I personally miss is Norwegian friends,
| and the European hacker culture. There are tinkerers and
| hackers here but it's not really the same.
| lukan wrote:
| Thank you, interesting insights.
|
| Do you speak japanese well? I assume without you only get
| by in certain bubbles in big cities?
| lysace wrote:
| I know/knew a bunch of Scandinavians in software
| engineering who moved to Japan 10-15 years ago. They
| loved it as long as they worked for the Scandinavian
| company's Japan subsidiary. They didn't love it so much a
| few years later when they ended up having to find jobs at
| Japanese companies because of a downsizing. Some ended up
| at companies like Rakuten. Heard some horror stories of
| insane company "culture" that would make Amazon execs
| blush.
|
| But you seem to be happy at a local company. Do you think
| you're lucky, have very low demands or have working
| conditions changed?
| quicklime wrote:
| The article says this has been running since 1963 though. The
| program would've been running through the post-war period of
| economic growth, as well as during the lost decades.
|
| It also mentions that it was done to drive sales.
| lysace wrote:
| https://www.eater.com/dining-out/916976/yakult-lady-japan-
| yo... goes into more detail. (I recommend reading the
| entire article, it's excellent and covers a lot.)
|
| _Yakult ladies aren't classified as full-time employees,
| but kojin jigyo usha (roughly "sole proprietors"),
| essentially making them owners of bicycle-sized franchises.
| They purchase product from Yakult and make a profit based
| on what they can sell. Yakult says the average earnings of
| a Yakult lady are roughly $682 USD a month, compared to an
| average of $1,774 per month for Japanese women broadly. In
| Yahoo Answers forums, Yakult ladies claim wildly different
| profits: Some say they work only three hours a day and make
| more than the company average. Others claim to work far
| more, selling roughly $2,700 worth of product in a month to
| take home about $600, roughly a 22 percent cut._
|
| ...
|
| _As I left the Yakult center, my baby clamoring for her
| nap, I felt oddly disillusioned -- not by the women
| themselves, or even the no-nonsense manager, but by the
| corporate trappings of their work. Before I looked into it,
| I had swallowed the lighthearted, easy glow of Yakult's
| promotional videos, which recalled my own experience when I
| was a kid. I would like to believe selling probiotic milk
| drinks is just an aside to Yakult ladies' main mission of
| maternal care in the community. In the fluorescent lighting
| of the Yakult center, I saw their labor._
| alwa wrote:
| Thank you for sharing that literary and well-observed
| piece of writing. It is evocative and contemplative, a
| timely counterpart to TFA, and it is indeed excellent.
| I'd second your suggestion to others.
| tokyobreakfast wrote:
| Japanese have lactose intolerance, almost universally.
|
| They don't eat yogurt or dairy in general.
| wingerlang wrote:
| So does Thailand but we also have Yakult ladies here, they just
| sell the drinks though.
| gramie wrote:
| The annual consumption of ice cream in Japan was 6.7 litres per
| person in 2021 (compared to 10 litres/person in Canada and 20
| litres/person in the U.S.). For all dairy, Japanese people each
| ate 94 kg in 2022.
|
| They eat less dairy, but hardly none. I have heard people say
| that a scoop of ice cream or a glass of milk each day is not a
| problem, but more can be. Intolerance also seems to increase
| with age, so younger people can consume more dairy.
|
| A 1975 study in Japan puts intolerance (unable to drink 200ml
| of milk comfortably) at 19% of the population. I would suspect
| that massive exposure over the past 50 years has lowered that
| percentage significantly.
| tokai wrote:
| How come Yakult is a nearly 100 years old Japanese company?
|
| Most yogurt cultures reduces lactose content of the milk base
| during fermentation. Some cultures like the one Yakult uses
| supports increased lactose digestion in humans. At the same
| time lactose intolerance is not binary but a spectrum.
| umanwizard wrote:
| The first line is true, the second line is false.
|
| Lactose intolerance is not absolute.
| socalgal2 wrote:
| A video on how it's possible for lactose intolerant peoples to
| still eat lots of dairy.
|
| Case in video: Chinese and milk tea
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=At_WjGosTNM
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| Every time I read an article about people trying to solve the
| 'loneliness epidemic' I can't help but wonder if we're not trying
| to solve the wrong problem.
|
| Maybe the solution should not be sought in trying to increase
| social connections but in eliminating our need for social
| contact. This dependence on other humans has always felt like a
| flaw to me.
|
| Note that I'm not saying that human contact is bad, just that our
| pathological dependency on it is.
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| Then, like, what's the point of even being a human instead of a
| robot?
| MattGaiser wrote:
| You would be free to decide, instead of having it being
| biologically required that you socialize.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| To learn, to create, to grow? None of these things
| necessarily involve other humans.
| Tepix wrote:
| But why if no-one is around to see it, admire it, comment
| on it, use it?
| Towaway69 wrote:
| If a human lives and no one noticed that human, did that
| human really live or have a life?
|
| Much like a soundless tree in the forest.
| vuln wrote:
| a human can not be brought into this world without being
| painfully noticed.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| Absolutely wrong, of course. At the risk of engaging with
| apparent rage bait: social interaction is one type of human
| yearning. So are learning, creating, and growing. Each of
| them requires other humans. Learning requires studying the
| knowledge created by other humans. Creating requires
| materials and methods created by other humans. Growing
| requires learning, so by extension, other humans.
| charcircuit wrote:
| >Learning requires studying the knowledge created by
| other humans.
|
| You can learn from AI. Just because it comes from another
| human you doing have to socialize with that human.
|
| >Creating requires materials and methods created by other
| humans.
|
| You can AI generate these materials. And even if you
| don't, downloading an image or using a method from
| someone else does not require socialize with them.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| > You can learn from AI.
|
| Try learning to box from an AI.
|
| > You can AI generate these materials
|
| Um...no...I meant actual material things that you use to
| create what you want. The supply chains that manufacture
| the materials necessary for you to "create" all require
| social interaction at multiple levels throughout the
| process.
|
| Sorry, your depressing anti-social hermit paradise can't
| exist.
| jatari wrote:
| Nothing wrong with being a robot.
| Telaneo wrote:
| I'd rather be a robot than a human, so from my perspective,
| the answer is clearly clearly none. I just don't have the
| option of turning into a robot.
| kalterdev wrote:
| > The thinking child is not antisocial (he is, in fact, the
| only type of child fit for social relationships). When he
| develops his first values and conscious convictions,
| particularly as he approaches adolescence, he feels an intense
| desire to share them with a friend who would understand him; if
| frustrated, he feels an acute sense of loneliness. (Loneliness
| is specifically the experience of this type of child--or adult;
| it is the experience of those who have something to offer. The
| emotion that drives conformists to "belong," is not loneliness,
| but fear--the fear of intellectual independence and
| responsibility. The thinking child seeks equals; the conformist
| seeks protectors.)
|
| https://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/loneliness.html
| sa-code wrote:
| What's there to live for otherwise? Can you flesh this idea out
| more?
| MattGaiser wrote:
| It would be up to you. These people who are lonely otherwise
| have lives.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| There are plenty of things to live for, but that's not even
| the point. There is a difference between choosing to be
| social and having to be social because you will get depressed
| if you aren't.
|
| I think this need for social interaction is harmful. We did
| see this in action during the COVID pandemic. So many people
| who weren't able to abide by a short lockdown. Lives were
| lost due to our pathological need for social interaction.
|
| Imagine how many communicable deceases we could eliminate by
| simply having a 3 month lockdown every other year.
| charlie0 wrote:
| You don't go far enough, every flu season should be
| lockdown and social distancing protocol should be followed
| on pain of death.
| aliher1911 wrote:
| So is food. If we switch to IV feeding you can also avoid
| many harms food and drink brings. We can do a soylent green
| as a stopgap.
| Telaneo wrote:
| I'm not a big fan of eating, so yes please? Even if I
| then want to indulge in something tasty every now and
| then, the option to just 'top up' without actually eating
| is hugely attractive.
| kakacik wrote:
| You live for others? As in remove those others and you lose
| whole purpose of life? I am not trying to be rude, seems like
| retirement homes house plenty of such people but it doesn't
| make sense for younger folks... although this is hardly a
| choice, is it. But - I believe one can work on this and move
| themselves quite a bit if wanted.
|
| My 2 cents - mountains and nature and activities in them are
| always beautiful, as in it doesn't get boring or mundane, not
| for anybody I know. Working out on oneself, experiencing
| various adventures, backpacking around the world, sports,
| adrenaline/risky activities that make you feel alive, seeing
| cultures and history and food... those are done for oneself
| and they are absolutely 100% fulfilling that no career could
| ever deliver.
|
| Saying above as one such person, and also father of 2 amazing
| kids (and a pretty decent wife to complement) whom I love
| more than anything. But I don't live for them despite doing
| various hard sacrifices for them, I live for me and do those
| things for me, to be happy, content, recharged, better father
| and husband and when looking back at my life being fine with
| various choices made.
| pstuart wrote:
| So if your wife and kids vanished the next day would the
| solo adventures be enough?
|
| Having gone through divorce/empty nest and working remotely
| it's been quite challenging to avoid depression.
| neilv wrote:
| Techbros are thinking: "Don't eliminate their need! They need a
| subscription AI app!"
| qingcharles wrote:
| Daily AI conversations for seniors: (there are a few of these
| products...)
|
| https://intouch.family/en
| kelipso wrote:
| This is the kind of detached from humanity viewpoint that I
| come to hacker news for. Keep it up.
| swed420 wrote:
| I mean, the first part of their comment got my hopes up:
|
| > Every time I read an article about people trying to solve
| the 'loneliness epidemic' I can't help but wonder if we're
| not trying to solve the wrong problem.
|
| But then I realized we differed on what the root
| problem/solution were.
|
| _What economic /social forces are making it so that the
| elderly get their emotional needs met through gig workers
| instead of their own families?_
|
| Another point the article doesn't mention is the emotional
| toll this likely has on the workers. Having once worked a
| role where I regularly helped the elderly and got to know the
| same individuals over some years, it was a constant churn of
| disappointment when they'd inevitably die.
| keiferski wrote:
| Lots of startup opportunities here. Instead solving the
| problem, just make a product that convinces people it's not
| actually a problem.
| brailsafe wrote:
| So... every popular platform we're already on
| fsckboy wrote:
| > _Every time I read an article about people trying to solve
| the 'loneliness epidemic..._
|
| you're reading the title wrong, they aren't "trying to solve
| the loneliness epidemic," they are trying to sell yogurt at a
| profit. In so doing, their sales force is ameliorating some of
| the loneliness their clients feel as a side effect. You could
| say that they are monetizing loneliness if that's the reason
| people are buying their products, for the visits and not for
| the yogurt.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| Exactly. This need to be social is being used against us. Not
| just to sell yoghurt, it's weaponized by the social media
| networks to manipulate entire countries.
| jatari wrote:
| Yes, how do we optimize social interaction out of our lives,
| maybe we can all live in VR with simulated girlfriends and
| never have to interact with another human again.
| the_af wrote:
| End goal: Asimov's Solaria, where everything is done by
| robots and the mere thought of breathing the same air as
| another human becomes repulsive.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| https://fablesofaesop.com/the-fox-who-lost-his-tail.html
| kakacik wrote:
| Not everybody is wired in same way. Some have 'pathological'
| need, some see it as beneficial but optional item. Same folks
| definitely don't enjoy loud parties or bars full of strangers
| yelling on each other, and find a bit of lonely time
| healing/recharging.
|
| I am one such person, and there are others. I consider it a
| personality strength, although of course it comes with side
| effects. Minority but not tiny.
| rexpop wrote:
| The framing of human sociality as a flaw to be eliminated
| invites the dangerous notion that we can--or should--simply re-
| engineer ourselves. However, the ambitious project of
| "rewiring" human nature to eliminate our spontaneous
| connections and dependencies is not a path to liberation, but
| the ultimate goal of totalitarianism and oppressive social
| engineering.
|
| Hannah Arendt explicitly notes that the true aim of
| totalitarian ideologies is not merely to change political
| structures, but to achieve "the transformation of human nature
| itself". When regimes seek total domination over a population,
| human spontaneity and the unpredictable nature of our social
| relationships become the greatest obstacles.
|
| To achieve total control, these systems attempt to fabricate a
| new kind of human species. Arendt observes that concentration
| camps functioned literally as "laboratories" to test these
| changes in human nature. The objective was to eliminate human
| spontaneity and transform the human personality into a mere
| "thing," reducing individuals to a predictable "bundle of
| reactions". Arendt compares the success of this psychological
| rewiring to Pavlov's dog, noting that conditioning a creature
| to abandon its natural, spontaneous instincts creates a
| "perverted animal".
|
| James C. Scott traces a similar impulse in "high-modernist"
| ideology, which champions the "mastery of nature (including
| human nature)" through the rational, scientific design of
| social order. This kind of extreme social engineering requires
| stripping people of their distinctive personalities, histories,
| and organic community ties, treating them instead as abstract,
| interchangeable "generic subjects".
|
| When human beings are placed in environments designed to
| severely restrict their organic social interactions and enforce
| rigid functional control, they suffer. Such environments foster
| a kind of "institutional neurosis" characterized by apathy,
| withdrawal, and a loss of initiative.
|
| Paulo Freire similarly observes that the drive to completely
| control people--to "in-animate" them and transform them from
| living beings into inanimate "things"--is the essence of
| oppression. He argues that attempting to turn men and women
| into "automatons" directly negates our fundamental "ontological
| vocation to be more fully human".
|
| If we were to successfully "rewire" ourselves to no longer need
| others, we would be executing the very project that
| authoritarian regimes have historically attempted through
| terror and indoctrination.
|
| Our "flawed" social dependency and spontaneous need for one
| another are exactly what guarantee our freedom. To engineer
| that vulnerability out of the human psyche would not solve the
| problem of loneliness; it would simply reduce us to isolated,
| predictable mechanisms, destroying our humanity in the process.
| vuln wrote:
| > we can fix the human condition by removing humanity
|
| wild take.
| Telaneo wrote:
| On some level I agree, but I don't think most of my fellow
| humans would agree.
|
| Either way, editing away the need for social connections from
| humans seems to be quite a long way from our current level of
| technology, so it's not really worth considering as something
| that can actually be done. There's a philosophical discussion
| worth having despite that though.
| arjie wrote:
| Haha! I really like your comment though I couldn't disagree
| more[1]! I think I understand a little of the view and I think
| it's not all wrong. Here's the part where I think you're right:
| not all kinds of social contact is useful. One thing I have
| found very useful for discussion is Opus 4.6. You have to apply
| the usual tricks ("a somewhat foolish friend of mine said" / "a
| junior intern who's not doing so well thinks" / etc.) but it's
| pretty good at engaging with a variety of ideas and disagreeing
| and so on. It still has the LLM glazing but it is possible to
| drag ideas out of it.
|
| By contrast, many humans can't even understand the thrust of an
| argument and so discussion is wasted on them. There's nothing
| more frustrating than making an argument of some meaning and
| having someone misunderstand it entirely. Avoiding that
| requires some degree of rhetorical skill and communication and
| a sufficiently receptive audience. I have no problem talking to
| my friends like this, but there is a time-subject-partner
| matching problem. I want to discuss Analects 13.18 _now_ , and
| my friend who can give me context is putting his son to
| sleep[0]. So I talk to Opus 4.6 and DeepSeek about what I think
| it is and I get quite far in understanding why my (seemingly
| novel) interpretation is unlikely to be correct.
|
| So machines are very useful in discussion and so on. However, I
| don't think they serve much of a purpose in assuaging
| loneliness. The reality of life is that it is most successful
| when it can organize into larger blocks: the cell, the organ,
| the body, the community, the state. And so I think our eusocial
| nature is strongly adaptive[1]. Perhaps with sufficiently
| advanced AI, a single person could exert sufficient power.
| Nothing in theory stopping that but I have other opposition to
| that (monocultures are non-adaptive, etc.). So removing our
| dependence on social connections will probably weaken us.
|
| So given that that is the case, I think people over-prescribe
| solutions in a way that is razor-targeted to themselves[2]. As
| someone who is not lonely and quite socially fulfilled, I find
| that a lot of these prescriptions turn out to come from some
| other axioms which I feel are unnecessary. For instance, one
| trend is "why do they have to get their needs met from delivery
| man?" and I think that's silly. When I was a child, we kids
| "had a relationship with" or "had some of our needs met" by the
| school guard in that he was a civic ally of ours. He was
| usually opposed to our actions tactically but ultimately
| aligned. Our final exams in India are very important and one
| day one of my classmates, who was particularly scatterbrained,
| was late for one and he took him to the exam hall on his bike.
|
| I don't think there's any reason to proscribe that social
| interactions should be within one's own immediate sphere. Our
| apartment building in San Francisco has social interactions
| that I think are normal in a civil society[3] - for the most
| part I interact there with strangers. Some I have helped or
| been helped by without ever having seen their faces. I think
| there is a joy I get from my direct family, and then my
| extended family and friends, and my communities, and my
| society, and as someone whose life is fairly joyful I'd say
| that looking around, (and with apologies to Tolstoy), "Happy
| people are all alike; each unhappy person is unhappy in their
| own way".
|
| 0: He did respond in the morning and it was very helpful. Turns
| out I misread the relationship Shen Zhuliang and Confucius had.
|
| 1: In fact, I'm of the opinion that pro-sociality is probably
| The Adaptive Trait. I recently picked up _Darwin 's Cathedral_
| and am approximately 3 pages in and I already feel a kindred
| spirit behind that book.
|
| 2: Can we help it? Almost everyone has heard an expert or
| professor go "I believe that X is the most important thing that
| everyone should learn" and X always happens to be what they're
| studying - well obviously they believe that, otherwise they
| wouldn't be studying it.
|
| 3: https://wiki.roshangeorge.dev/w/Blog/2025-10-09/Community
| anal_reactor wrote:
| The problem is, even if we somehow could do that, it's not
| possible to predict the consequences. Being social is exactly
| the one specific trait that gave humans massive advantage over
| other species, and was the backbone of our evolution.
| analog8374 wrote:
| The part of the brain that needs human contact could be
| chemically or surgically neutralized.
| ValentineC wrote:
| We used to have Yakult Ladies in Singapore too -- I remember my
| parents buying from them to please their kids (me) decades ago.
|
| Surprisingly enough, I just looked the scheme up for this
| comment, and it's still active:
|
| - https://yakult.com.sg/yakult-lady-agent/
|
| - https://sg.news.yahoo.com/memory-makers-singapores-first-yak...
|
| The Yahoo article could help explain some of the economics behind
| it.
| ohghiZai wrote:
| I still see them going door to door these days!
| ekianjo wrote:
| Is this a PR piece, with product placement clearly front and
| center?
| jokoon wrote:
| English is not my main language but this title confuses me
| xandrius wrote:
| Yoghurt delivery women is the subject of the sentence and it's
| about women who deliver yoghurts.
| qingcharles wrote:
| Yakult is a Japanese company? I always assumed from the name it
| came from mainland Europe somewhere. They did a Haagen-Dazs on
| me. Especially as the Japanese often come up with Western names
| like this that aren't even spellable in kana.
| troymc wrote:
| The plaid trim on the official uniform definitely gives it a
| Scottish aesthetic.
| pan69 wrote:
| > Yakult (yakuruto, Yakuruto) is a Japanese sweetened probiotic
| milk beverage fermented with the bacteria strain
| Lacticaseibacillus casei Shirota. It is sold by Yakult Honsha
| based in Tokyo.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakult
| chuckadams wrote:
| I wonder how many suburban housewives in the 60's combated
| loneliness through TupperWare(r) Parties?
| jadbox wrote:
| And the Avon cream products in the 90s!
| WalterGR wrote:
| They existed well into the 80s in rural Missouri.
| whstl wrote:
| I heard about those from parents/grandparents and it was
| interesting in contrast to MLM meetings I had people trying to
| con me into participating. I fell for one invite once and they
| are pure sleaze.
| no_time wrote:
| How neat. I'd buy some Actimel too if a sharply dressed lady
| would show up at my door instead of a suicidal looking grocery
| delivery guy who carves the local word for "tip" in the elevator
| every time he doesn't get any.
| zabzonk wrote:
| Well, I'd go for a sharply dressed lady too, but ... what I get
| is very cheerful Tesco drivers in hiviz, who unpack my
| groceries and stash the chilled stuff in my fridge. It's a
| great (UK) service, and they quite often ask if they can do
| anything else for me (I'm bed-bound) like make a cup of tea.
| Cannot recommend them highly enough.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| "The yoghurt delivery women combatting loneliness in Minnesota"
|
| HN's interest in this article is so "thing vs Japanese thing"
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| That trope only applies if the non-Japanese version of the
| thing exists. Which, if you live in the US, it doesn't. I would
| be just as interested in an article about Minnesota yogurt
| delivery women, but they don't exist, so...
| paganel wrote:
| Sometimes news like this is upvoted, because it involves Japan,
| towards each a lot of Western techies have an unhealthy obsession
| on, but the moment when those techies are advised to not use the
| self-service thing at the super-market they start going bananas.
| ronnier wrote:
| I also find it odd that there's daily top ranked Japan related
| articles on HN.
| haunter wrote:
| HN is the breeding ground of the Thing Japan meme
| https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thing-japan
| AdrianB1 wrote:
| Japan is a very interesting country for Western people (US and
| Canada, Western Europe) because it is by far the most developed
| country that is not Western. In this regard, it is unique and
| intriguing.
| fidicen wrote:
| With the automation of some customer service labor in japan,
| maybe this shows people value at least a bit of customer service
| interaction as a customer
| petterroea wrote:
| I think most feedback I've seen regarding automation of
| customer service labour has been along the lines of "no! Get it
| away from me! I want to speak to the human!". With
| approximately that level of frustration.
|
| I thought it was well established that interacting with an
| actual human was generally preferred to whatever we have to use
| now.
|
| The automation exists to save money on labour, not to make our
| lives more convenient
| keyringlight wrote:
| Another variation on this is La Poste in France have a paid
| service "Watch over my parents" where you can get the postie to
| do a short regular visit to them (presumably alongside any
| deliveries) for distant children who can't.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2026-03-07 23:00 UTC)