[HN Gopher] Eight more months of agents
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Eight more months of agents
        
       Author : arrowsmith
       Score  : 60 points
       Date   : 2026-02-08 11:00 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (crawshaw.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (crawshaw.io)
        
       | almostdeadguy wrote:
       | In the past couple days I've become less skeptical of the
       | capabilities of LLMs and now more alarmed by them, contra the
       | author. I think if we as a society continue to accept the
       | development of LLMs and the control of them by the major AI
       | companies there will be massively negative repercussions. And I
       | don't mean repercussions like "a rogue AI will destroy humanity"
       | per se, but these things will potentially cause massive social
       | upheaval, a large amount of negative impacts on mental health and
       | cognition, etc. I think if you see LLMs as powerful but not
       | dangerous you are not being honest.
        
         | gadflyinyoureye wrote:
         | I see them as powerful and dangerous. The goal for decades now
         | is to reduce the human population to 500 million. All human
         | technology was pushed to this end, covertly. If we suddenly
         | have a technology that renders white collar workers useless, we
         | will get to that number faster than expected.
        
           | Applejinx wrote:
           | I don't believe that is true, but if it WAS true that human
           | technology was covertly pushed to this end: there are people
           | out there who are demanding that this technology come up with
           | social manipulations (using language) to reduce the human
           | population to a SPECIFIC 500 million.
           | 
           | Or less.
           | 
           | And I don't think it's collar color they're going to be
           | checking against.
           | 
           | So I guess I'm saying I agree that this is powerful and
           | dangerous. These are language models, so they're more
           | effective against humans and their languages. And self-
           | preservation, empathy, humanity do not play a role as there
           | is nobody in there to be offended at the notion of
           | intentionally killing more than 9/10 of humanity... for some
           | definitions of humanity, ones I'm sympathetic to.
        
         | NitpickLawyer wrote:
         | There are some good things here:
         | 
         | First, we currently have 4 frontier labs, and a bunch of 2nd
         | tier ones following. The fact that we don't have just oAI or
         | just Anthropic or just Google is good in the general sense, I
         | would say. The 4 labs racing each other and trading SotA status
         | for ~a few weeks is good for the end consumer. They keep each
         | other honest and keep the prices down. Imagine if Anthropic
         | could charge 60$ /MTok or oAI could charge 120$ /MTok for their
         | gpt4 style models. They can't in good part because of the
         | competition.
         | 
         | Second, there's a bunch of labs / companies that have released
         | and are continuing to release open mdoels. That's as close to
         | "intelligence on tap" as you can get. And those models are
         | ~6-12 months behind the SotA models, depending on your usecase.
         | Even though the labs have largely different incentives to do
         | so, a lot of them are still releasing open models. Hopefully
         | that continues to hold. So not all control will be in the hands
         | of big tech, even if the "best" will still be theirs. At some
         | point "good enough" is fine.
         | 
         | There's also the thing about geopolitics being involved in
         | this. So far we've seen the EU jumping the gun on regulation,
         | and we're kinda sorta paying for it. Everyone is still confused
         | about what can or cannot be done in the EU. The US seems to be
         | waiting to see what happens, and China will do whatever they
         | do. The worst thing that can happen is that at some point the
         | big players (Anthropic is the main driver) push for regulatory
         | capture. That would really suck. Thankfully atm there's this
         | lingering thinking that "if we do it, the others won't so we'll
         | be on the back foot". Hopefully this holds, at least until the
         | "good enough" from above is out :)
        
           | almostdeadguy wrote:
           | I'm not just concerned about control by one company, I'm
           | concerned by control for the profit motive, and probably
           | concerned about the wisdom of using these things for anything
           | except extremely limited use cases (breakthrough scientific
           | research, etc.). I think tech people have a bad tendency of
           | viewing this through the lens of platform wars type stakes,
           | and there are much bigger problems with AI. The fact that an
           | alarming number of ex-and-current Anthropic people I've met
           | think the world is going to end is something we should take
           | heed of!
           | 
           | The AI labs started down this path using the Manhattan
           | Project as a metaphor and guess what? It's a good metaphor
           | and we should embrace most of the wider implications of that
           | (though I'd love to avoid all the MAD/cold war bullshit this
           | time).
        
       | hasperdi wrote:
       | > It sounds like someone saying power tools should be outlawed in
       | carpentry.
       | 
       | I see this a lot here
        
         | sp33der89 wrote:
         | All metaphors break down at a certain point, but power tools
         | and generative AI/LLMs being compared feels like somebody is
         | romanticizing the art of programming a bit too much.
         | 
         | Copyright law, education, just the sheer scale of things
         | changing because of LLMs are some things off the top of my head
         | why "power tools vs carpentry" is a bad analogy.
        
         | Keyframe wrote:
         | if that someone is clumsy, had an active war going on against
         | basic tools before, and wandered into the carpentry from
         | completely different area, then power tools might be a bad
         | idea.
        
       | happytoexplain wrote:
       | I don't trust the idea of "not getting", "not understanding", or
       | "being out of touch" with anti-LLM (or pro-LLM) sentiment. There
       | is nothing complicated about this divide. The pros and cons are
       | both as plain as anything has ever been. You can disagree - even
       | strongly - with either side. You can't "not understand".
        
         | slfnflctd wrote:
         | > There is nothing complicated about this divide [...] You
         | can't "not understand"
         | 
         | I beg to differ. There are a whole lot of folks with
         | astonishingly incomplete understanding about all the facts here
         | who are going to continue to make things very, very
         | complicated. Disagreement is meaningless when the relevant
         | parties are not working from the same assumption of basic
         | knowledge.
        
           | illusive4080 wrote:
           | Bolstering your point, check out the comments in this thread:
           | https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1qy9dcs/who_has_compl.
           | ..
           | 
           | There's a lot of unwillingness to even attempt to try the
           | tools.
        
         | derefr wrote:
         | The negative impacts of generative AI are most sharply being
         | felt by "creatives" (artists, writers, musicians, etc), and the
         | consumers in those markets. If the OP here is 1. a programmer
         | 2. who works solely with other programmers and 3. who is "on
         | the grind", mostly just consuming non-fiction blog-post content
         | related to software development these days, rather than paying
         | much attention to what's currently happening to the world of
         | movies/music/literature/etc... then it'd be pretty easy for
         | them to not be exposed very much to anti-LLM sentiment, since
         | that sentiment is entirely occurring in these other fields that
         | might have no relevance to their (professional or personal)
         | life.
         | 
         | "Anti-LLM sentiment" _within_ software development is nearly
         | non-existent. The biggest kind of push-back to LLMs that we see
         | on HN and elsewhere, is effectively just _pragmatic skepticism_
         | around the effectiveness /utility/ROI of LLMs when employed for
         | specific use-cases. Which isn't "anti-LLM sentiment" any more
         | than skepticism around the ability of junior programmers to
         | complete complex projects is "anti-junior-programmer
         | sentiment."
         | 
         | The difference between the perspectives you find in the
         | creative professions vs in software dev, don't come down to
         | "not getting" or "not understanding"; they really are a
         | question of relative exposure to these pro-LLM vs anti-LLM
         | ideas. Software dev and the creative professions are acting as
         | entirely separate filter-bubbles of conversation here. You can
         | end up entirely on the outside of one or the other of them by
         | accident, and so end up entirely without exposure to one or the
         | other set of ideas/beliefs/memes.
         | 
         | (If you're curious, my own SO actually has this filter-bubble
         | effect from the opposite end, so I can describe what that looks
         | like. She _only_ hears the negative sentiment coming from the
         | creatives she follows, while also having to dodge endless AI
         | slop flooding all the marketplaces and recommendation feeds she
         | previously used to discover new media to consume. And her job
         | is one you do with your hands and specialized domain knowledge;
         | so none of her coworkers use AI for literally anything.
         | [Industry magazines in her field say  "AI is revolutionizing
         | her industry" -- but they mean _ML_ , not generative AI.] She
         | has no questions that ChatGPT could answer for her. She doesn't
         | have any friends who are productively co-working with AI. She
         | is 100% out-of-touch with pro-LLM sentiment.)
        
           | remich wrote:
           | I think this is an interesting point, my one area of
           | disagreement is that there is no "anti-LLM sentiment" in the
           | programming community. Sure, plenty of folks expressing
           | skepticism or disagreement are doing so from a genuine place,
           | but just in reading this site and a few email newsletters I
           | get I can say that there is a non-trivial percent in the
           | programming world who are adamantly opposed to LLMs/AI. When
           | I see comments from people in that subset, it's quite clear
           | that they aren't approaching it from a place of skepticism,
           | where they could be convinced given appropriate evidence or
           | experiences.
        
           | overgard wrote:
           | > "Anti-LLM sentiment" within software development is nearly
           | non-existent.
           | 
           | Strong disagree right there. I remember talking to a
           | (developer) coworker a few months ago who seemed like the
           | biggest AI proponent on our team. When we were one-on-one
           | during a lunch though, he revealed that he really doesn't
           | like AI that much at all, he's just afraid to speak up
           | against it. I'm in a few Discord channels with a lot of
           | highly skilled (senior and principal programmers) who mostly
           | work in game development (or adjacent), and most of them
           | either mock LLMs or have a lot of derision for it. Hacker
           | News is kind of a weird pro-AI bubble, most other places are
           | not nearly as keen on this stuff.
        
           | happytoexplain wrote:
           | >"Anti-LLM sentiment" within software development is nearly
           | non-existent
           | 
           | This is certainly untrue. I want to say "obviously", which
           | means that maybe I am misunderstanding you. Below are some
           | examples of negative sentiments programmers have - can you
           | explain why you are not counting these?
           | 
           | NOTE: I am not presenting these as an "LLMs are bad"
           | argument. My own feelings go both ways. There is a lot that's
           | great about LLMs, and I don't necessarily agree with every
           | word I've written below - some of it is just my paraphrasing
           | of what other people say. I'm only listing examples of what
           | drives existing anti-LLM sentiment in programmers.
           | 
           | 1. Job loss, loss of income, or threat thereof
           | 
           | These two are exacerbated by the pace of change, since so
           | many people already spent their lives and money establishing
           | themselves in the career and can't realistically pivot
           | without becoming miserable - this is the same story for every
           | large, fast change - though arguably this one is very large
           | and very fast even by those standards. Lots of tech
           | leadership is focusing even more than they already were on
           | cheap contractors, and/or pushing employees for unrealistic
           | productivity increases. I.e. it's exacerbating the "fast >
           | good" problem, and a lot of leadership is also overestimating
           | how far it reduces the barrier to creating things, as opposed
           | to mostly just speeding up a person's existing capabilities.
           | Some leadership is also using the apparent loss of job
           | security as leverage beyond salary suppression (even less
           | proportion of remote work allowed, more surveillance, worse
           | office conditions, etc).
           | 
           | 2. Happiness loss (in regards to the job itself, not all the
           | other stuff in this list)
           | 
           | This is regarding people who enjoy writing/designing programs
           | but don't enjoy directing LLMs; or who don't enjoy debugging
           | the types of mistakes LLMs tend to make, as opposed to the
           | types of mistakes that human devs tend to make. For these
           | people, it's like their job was forcibly changed to a
           | different, almost unrelated job, which can be miserable
           | depending on why you were good at - or why you enjoyed - the
           | old job.
           | 
           | 3. Uncertainty/skepticism
           | 
           | I'm pushing back on your dismissal of this one as "not anti-
           | LLM sentiment" - the comparison doesn't make sense. If I was
           | forced to only review junior dev code instead of ever writing
           | my own code or reviewing experienced dev code, I would be
           | unhappy. And I love teaching juniors! And even if we ignore
           | the subset of cases where it doesn't do a good job or assume
           | it will soon be senior-level for every use case, this still
           | overlaps with the above problem: The mistakes it makes are
           | not like the mistakes a human makes. For some people, it's
           | more unnatural/stressful to keep your eyes peeled for the
           | kinds of mistakes it makes. For these people, it's a shift
           | away from objective, detail-oriented, controlled, concrete
           | thinking; away from the feeling of making something with your
           | hands; and toward a more wishy-washy creation experience that
           | can create a feeling of lack of control.
           | 
           | 4. Expertise loss
           | 
           | A lot of positive outcomes with LLMs come from being already
           | experienced. Some argue this will be eroded - both for new
           | devs and existing experienced devs.
           | 
           | 5. The training data ownership/morality angle
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Related. Others?
       | 
       |  _How I program with agents_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44221655 - June 2025 (295
       | comments)
        
       | dirkc wrote:
       | > Using anything other than the frontier models is actively
       | harmful
       | 
       | If that is true, why should one invest in learning now rather
       | than waiting for 8 months to learn whatever is the frontier model
       | then?
        
         | fusslo wrote:
         | snarky answer: so you can be that 'AI guy' at your office that
         | everyone avoids in the snackroom
        
         | ej88 wrote:
         | It's not like you need to take a course. The frontier models
         | are the best, just using them and their harnesses and figuring
         | out what works for your use case is the 'investing in
         | learning'.
        
         | recursive wrote:
         | How could it be actively harmful if it wasn't harmful last
         | month when it _was_ the frontier model?
        
         | senko wrote:
         | Because you might want to use LLMs _now_. If not, it 's
         | definitely better to not chase the hype - ignore the whole
         | shebang.
         | 
         | But if you _do_ want to use LLMs for coding _now_ , not using
         | the best models just doesn't make sense.
        
         | jonas21 wrote:
         | So that you can be using the current frontier model for the
         | next 8 months instead of twiddling your thumbs waiting for the
         | next one to come out?
         | 
         | I think you (and others) might be misunderstanding his
         | statement a bit. He's not saying that using an old model is
         | harmful in the sense that it outputs bad code -- he's saying
         | it's harmful because some of the lessons you learn will be out
         | of date and not apply to the latest models.
         | 
         | So yes, if you use current frontier models, you'll need to
         | recalibrate and unlearn a few things when the next generation
         | comes out. But in the meantime, you will have gotten 8 months
         | (or however long it takes) of value out of the current
         | generation.
        
           | properbrew wrote:
           | You also don't have to throw away everything you've learnt in
           | those 8 months, there's some things that you'll subtly pickup
           | that you can carry over into the next generation as well.
        
       | dmk wrote:
       | The real insight buried in here is "build what programmers love
       | and everyone will follow." If every user has an agent that can
       | write code against your product, your API docs become your actual
       | product. That's a massive shift.
        
         | anthuswilliams wrote:
         | I'm very much looking forward to this shift. It is SO MUCH more
         | pro-consumer than the existing SaaS model. Right now every app
         | feels like a walled garden, with broken UX, constant redesigns,
         | enormous amounts of telemetry and user manipulation. It feels
         | like every time I ask for programmatic access to SaaS tools in
         | order to simplify a workflow, I get stuck in endless meetings
         | with product managers trying to "understand my use case", even
         | for products explicitly marketed to programmers.
         | 
         | Using agents that interact with APIs represents people being
         | able to own their user experience more. Why not craft a
         | frontend that behaves exactly the the way YOU want it to,
         | tailor made for YOUR work, abstracting the set of products you
         | are using and focusing only on the actual relevant bits of the
         | work you are doing? Maybe a downside might be that there is
         | more explicit metering of use in these products instead of the
         | per-user licensing that is common today. But the upside is
         | there is so much less scope for engagement-hacking, dark
         | patterns, useless upselling, and so on.
        
       | dagss wrote:
       | But if you try some penny-saving cheap model like Sonnet [..bad
       | things..]. [Better] pay through the nose for Opus.
       | 
       | After blowing $800 of my bootstrap startup funds for Cursor with
       | Opus for myself in a very productive January I figured I had to
       | try to change things up... so this month I'm jumping between
       | Claude Code and Cursor, sometimes writing the plans and having
       | the conversation in Cursor and dump the implementation plan into
       | Claude.
       | 
       | Opus in Cursor is just so much more responsive and easy to talk
       | to, compared to Opus in Claude.
       | 
       | Cursor has this "Auto" mode which feels like it has very liberal
       | limits (amortized cost I guess) that I'm also trying to use more,
       | but -- I don't really like to flip a coin and if it lands up head
       | then waste half hour discovering the LLM made a mess the LLM and
       | try again forcing the model.
       | 
       | Perhaps in March I'll bite the bullet and take this authors
       | advice.
        
         | written-beyond wrote:
         | Just use Codex 5.3 in codex cli, the $20/mo plan is basically
         | limitless at least for me and I keep reasoning efforts high.
         | 
         | You can enjoy it while it lasts, OpenAI is being very liberal
         | with their limits because of CC eating their lunch rn.
        
           | rmonvfer wrote:
           | Yeah, I can't recommend gpt-5.3-codex enough, it's great!
           | I've been using it with the new macOS app and I'm impressed.
           | I've always been a Claude Code guy and I find myself using
           | codex more and more. Opus is still much nicer explaining
           | issues and walking me through implementations but codex is
           | faster (even with xhigh effort) and gets the job done 95% of
           | the time.
           | 
           | I was spending unholy amounts of money and tokens (subsidized
           | cloud credits tho) forcing Opus for everything but I'm very
           | happy with this new setup. I've also experimented with
           | OpenCode and their Zen subscription to test Kimi K2.5 an
           | similar models and they also seem like a very good
           | alternative for some tasks.
           | 
           | What I cannot stand tho is using sonnet directly (it's fine
           | as a subagent), I've found it to be hard to control and
           | doesn't follow detailed instructions.
        
             | jorl17 wrote:
             | Out of curiosity, what's your flow? Do you have codex write
             | plans to markdown files? Just chat? What languages or
             | frameworks do you use?
             | 
             | I'm an avid cursor user (with opus), and have been trying
             | alternatives recently. Codex has been an immense letdown. I
             | think I was too spoiled by cursor's UX and internal
             | planning prompt.
             | 
             | It's incredibly slow, produces terribly verbose and over-
             | complicated code (unless I use high or xhigh, which are
             | even slower), and missed a lot of details. Python/django
             | and react frontend.
             | 
             | For the first time I felt like I could relate to those
             | people who say it doesn't make them faster," because they
             | have to keep fixing the agent's shot, never felt that with
             | opus 4.5 and 4.6 and cursor
        
       | emmawirt wrote:
       | Curious what you mean by "agent harness" here... are you
       | distinguishing between true autonomous agents (model decides next
       | step) vs workflows that use LLMs at specific nodes? I've found
       | the latter dramatically more reliable for anything beyond
       | prototyping, which makes me wonder if the "model improvement" is
       | partly better prompting and scaffolding.
        
         | crawshaw wrote:
         | Hi, author here. I mean the piece of code that calls the model
         | and executes the tool calls. My colleague Philip calls it "9
         | lines of code": https://sketch.dev/blog/agent-loop
         | 
         | We have built two of them now, and clearly the state of the art
         | here can be improved. But it is hard to push too much on this
         | while the models keep improving.
        
         | rahimnathwani wrote:
         | An agent harness is what enables the user to seamlessly
         | interact with both a model and tool calls. Claude Code is an
         | agent harness.                 +----------------------------+
         | |           User             |
         | +--------------+-------------+                      |
         | V       +----------------------------+       |       Agent
         | Harness        |       |   (software interface)     |
         | +------+--------------+------+              |              |
         | V              V       +------------+ +------------+       |
         | Models   | |   Tools    |       +------------+ +------------+
         | 
         | Here's an example of a harness with less code:
         | https://github.com/badlogic/pi-mono/blob/fdcd9ab783104285764...
        
       | Herring wrote:
       | _> In 2000, less than one percent lived on farms and 1% of
       | workers are in agriculture. That was a net benefit to the world,
       | that we all don 't have to work to eat._
       | 
       | The jury's still out on that one, because climate change is an
       | existential risk.
        
         | gradus_ad wrote:
         | Existential? Maybe to beachfront property owners
        
           | Herring wrote:
           | Everybody gangsta until the permafrost starts leaking massive
           | amounts of methane.
        
           | esafak wrote:
           | Did you know that 10% of the world's population lives in
           | coastal zones at low elevations?
        
       | joefourier wrote:
       | The author is correct in that agents are becoming more and more
       | capable and that you don't _need_ the IDE to the same extent, but
       | I don 't see that as good. I find that IDE-based agentic
       | programming actually encourages you to read and understand your
       | codebase as opposed to CLI-based workflows. It's so much easier
       | to flip through files, review the changes it made, or highlight a
       | specific function and give it to the agent, as opposed to through
       | the CLI where you usually just give it an entire file by typing
       | the name, and often you just pray that it manages to find the
       | context by itself. My prompts in Cursor are generally a lot more
       | specific and I get more surgical results than with Claude Code in
       | the terminal purely because of the convenience of the UX.
       | 
       | But secondly, there's an entire field of LLM-assisted coding
       | that's being almost entirely neglected and that's code
       | autocomplete models. Fundamentally they're the same technology as
       | agents and should be doing the same thing: indexing your code in
       | the background, filtering the context, etc, but there's much less
       | attention and it does feel like the models are stagnating.
       | 
       | I find that very unfortunate. Compare the two workflows:
       | 
       | With a normal coding agent, you write your prompt, then you have
       | to at least a full minute for the result (generally more,
       | depending on the task), breaking your flow and forcing you to
       | task-switch. Then it gives you a giant mass of code and of course
       | 99% of the time you just approve and test it because it's a slog
       | to read through what it did. If it doesn't work as intended, you
       | get angry at the model, retry your prompt, spending a larger
       | amount of tokens the longer your chat history.
       | 
       | But with LLM-powered auto-complete, when you want, say, a
       | function to do X, you write your comment describing it first,
       | just like you should if you were writing it yourself. You
       | instantly see a small section of code and if it's not what you
       | want, you can alter your comment. Even if it's not 100% correct,
       | multi-line autocomplete is great because you approve it line by
       | line and can stop when it gets to the incorrect parts, and you're
       | not forced to task switch and you don't lose your concentration,
       | that great sense of "flow".
       | 
       | Fundamentally it's not _that_ different from agentic coding -
       | except instead of prompting in a chatbox, you write comments in
       | the files directly. But I much prefer the quick feedback loop,
       | the ability to ignore outputs you don 't want, and the fact that
       | I don't feel like I'm losing track of what my code is doing.
        
         | coffeefirst wrote:
         | The other thing about non-agent workflows is they're much, much
         | less compute intensive. This is going to matter.
        
       | dsign wrote:
       | Look, I'm very negative about this AI thing. I think there is a
       | great chance it will lead to something terrible and we will all
       | die, or worse. But on the other hand, we are all going to die
       | anyway. Some of us, the lucky ones, will die of a heart attack
       | and will learn of our imminent demise in the second it happens,
       | or not at all. The rest of us will have it worse. It has _always_
       | been like that, and it has only gotten more devastating since we
       | started wearing clothes and stopped being eaten alive by a
       | savanna crocodile or freezing to death during the first snowfall
       | of winter.
       | 
       | But if AI keeps getting better at code, it will produce entire
       | in-silico simulation workflows to test new drugs or even to
       | design synthetic life (which, again, could make us all die, or
       | worse). Yet there is a tiny, tiny chance we will use it to fix
       | some of the darkest aspects of human existence. I will take that.
        
       | Krei-se wrote:
       | The author has a github.
        
       | 63 wrote:
       | I have no problem with experienced senior devs using agents to
       | write good code faster. What I have a problem with is
       | inexperienced "vibecoders" who don't care to learn and instead
       | use agents to write awful buggy code that will make the product
       | harder to build on even for the agents. It used to be that lack
       | of a basic understanding of the system was a barrier for people,
       | but now it's not, so we're flooded with code written by imperfect
       | models conducted by people who don't know good from bad.
        
         | codebolt wrote:
         | Where are you encountering all this slop code? At my work we
         | use LLMs heavily and I don't see this issue. Maybe I'm just
         | lucky that my colleagues all have Uni degrees in CS and at
         | least a few years experience.
        
           | post-it wrote:
           | > Maybe I'm just lucky that my colleagues all have Uni
           | degrees in CS and at least a few years experience.
           | 
           | That's why. I was using Claude the other day to greenfield a
           | side project and it wanted to do some important logic on the
           | frontend that would have allowed unauthenticated users to
           | write into my database.
           | 
           | It was easy to spot _for me_ , because I've been writing
           | software for years, and it only took a single prompt to fix.
           | But a vibe coder wouldn't have caught it and hackers would've
           | pwned their webapp.
        
             | giancarlostoro wrote:
             | You can also ask Claude to review all the code for security
             | issues and code smells, you'd be surprised what it finds.
             | We all write insecure code in our first pass through if
             | we're too focused on getting the proof of concept worked
             | out, security isnt always the very 1st thing coded, maybe
             | its the very next thing, maybe it comes 10 changes later.
        
               | blibble wrote:
               | > We all write insecure code in our first pass through
               | 
               | no, we don't
        
           | bowsamic wrote:
           | The issue isn't when the programmers start using it. It's
           | when the project managers start using it and think that
           | they're producing something similar to the programmers
        
         | bdangubic wrote:
         | the number of experienced, senior programmers though, who are
         | in "anti-LLM" camp, is still fairly staggering.
        
           | estimator7292 wrote:
           | I mean when the tag line is "this will replace senior
           | engineers and you, the senior engineer, _must_ be _forced_ to
           | use it "
           | 
           | Then yeah, it makes sense.
        
         | remich wrote:
         | We're in a transition phase, but this will shake out in the
         | near future. In the non-professional space, poorly built
         | vibecoded apps simply won't last, for any number of reasons.
         | When it comes to professional devs, this is a problem that is
         | solved by a combination of tooling, process, and management:
         | 
         | (1) Tooling to enable better evaluation of generated code and
         | its adherence to conventions and norms (2) Process to impose
         | requirements on the creation/exposure of PRDs/prompts/traces
         | (3) Management to guide devs in the use of the above and to
         | implement concrete rewards and consequences
         | 
         | Some organizations will be exposed as being deficient in some
         | or all of these areas, and they will struggle. Better
         | organizations will adapt.
        
           | etamponi wrote:
           | The unfortunate reality is that (1) and (2) is what many,
           | many engineers would like to do, but management is going
           | EXACTLY in the opposite direction: go faster! Go faster! Why
           | are you spending time on these things
        
       | post-it wrote:
       | > Agent harnesses have not improved much since then. There are
       | things Sketch could do well six months ago that the most popular
       | agents cannot do today.
       | 
       | I think this is a neglected area that will see a lot of
       | development in the near future. I think that even if development
       | on AI models stopped today - if no new model was ever trained
       | again - there are still decades of innovation ahead of us in
       | harnessing the models we already have.
       | 
       | Consider ChatGPT: the first release relied entirely on its
       | training data to answer questions. Today, it typically does a few
       | Google searches and summarizes the results. The model has
       | improved, but so has the way we use it.
        
         | kevmo314 wrote:
         | Really? I hardly think it's neglected. The Claude Code harness
         | is the only reason I come back to it. I've tried Claude via
         | OpenCode or others and it doesn't work as well for me. If
         | anything, I would even argue that prior to 4.6, the main reason
         | Opus 4.5 felt like it improved over months was the harness.
        
       | uludag wrote:
       | > I am having more fun programming than I ever have, because so
       | many more of the programs I wish I could find the time to write
       | actually exist. I wish I could share this joy with the people who
       | are fearful about the changes agents are bringing.
       | 
       | It might be just me but this reads as very tone deaf. From my
       | perspective, CEOs are seething at the mouth to make as many
       | developers redundant as possible, not being shy about this
       | desire. (I don't see this at all as inevitable, but tech leaders
       | have made their position clear)
       | 
       | Like, imagine the smugness of some 18th century "CEO" telling an
       | artisan, despite the fact that he'l be resigned to working in
       | horrific conditions at a factory, to not worry and think of all
       | the mass produced consumer goods he may enjoy one day.
       | 
       | It's not at all a stretch of the imagination that current tech
       | workers may be in a very precarious situation. All the slopware
       | in the world wouldn't console them.
        
         | overgard wrote:
         | I bought Steve Yegge's "Vibe Coding" book. I think I'm about
         | 1/4th of the way through it or so. One thing that surprised me
         | is there's this naivete on display that workers are going to be
         | the ones to reap the benefits of this. Like, Steve was using an
         | example of being able to direct the agent while doing leisure
         | activities (never mind that Steve is more of an
         | executive/thought leader in this company, and, prior to LLMs,
         | seemed to be out of the business of writing code). That's a
         | nice snapshot of a reality that isn't going to persist..
         | 
         | While the idea of programmers working two hours a day and
         | spending the rest of it with their family seems sunny, that's
         | absolutely not how business is going to treat it.
         | 
         | Thought experiment... CEO has a team of 8 engineers. They do
         | some experiments with AI, and they discover that their
         | engineers are 2x more effective on average . What does the CEO
         | do?
         | 
         | a) Change the workweek to 4 hours a day so that all the
         | engineers have better work/life balance since the same amount
         | of work is being done.
         | 
         | b) Fire half the engineers, make the 4 remaining guys pick up
         | the slack, rinse and repeat until there's one guy left?
         | 
         | Like, come on. There's pushback on this stuff not because the
         | technology is bad, (although it's overhyped), but because the
         | no sane person trusts our current economic system to provide
         | anything resembling humane treatment of workers. The super rich
         | are perfectly fine seeing half the population become
         | unemployed, as far as I can tell, as long as their stock
         | numbers go up.
        
       | monus wrote:
       | > Along the way I have developed a programming philosophy I now
       | apply to everything: the best software for an agent is whatever
       | is best for a programmer.
       | 
       | Not a plug but really that's exactly why we're building sandboxes
       | for agents with local laptop quality. Starting with remote
       | xcode+sim sandboxes for iOS, high mem sandbox with Android
       | Emulator on GPU accel for Android.
       | 
       | No machine allocation but composable sandboxes that make up a
       | developer persona's laptop.
       | 
       | If interested, a quick demo here
       | https://www.loom.com/share/c0c618ed756d46d39f0e20c7feec996d
       | 
       | muvaf[at]limrun[dot]com
        
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