[HN Gopher] The first sodium-ion battery EV is a winter range mo...
___________________________________________________________________
The first sodium-ion battery EV is a winter range monster
Author : andrewjneumann
Score : 114 points
Date : 2026-02-08 17:15 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (insideevs.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (insideevs.com)
| pkulak wrote:
| If this is "on par" with LFP energy density, I'm not sure there's
| any need for LFP now. Sodium ion seems to thoroughly beat it in
| every other metric.
| woeirua wrote:
| I haven't seen any info on charging speed. Can you recharge
| these as quickly as LFP?
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| CATL's Naxtra cells apparently have a c rating of 5C. Which
| boils down to about 12 minutes for a full charge with the
| right charger. So, as fast or faster than LFP would be the
| answer here.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| If they have a 5C rating from 0 to 100 that would be a real
| game changer. I look forward to the days we don't need
| caveats like "only up to 80%".
| loeg wrote:
| On par on a per kg basis, but is it on par on a volume basis?
| If it takes up more space, that might pose packaging challenges
| relative to LFP.
| adrian_b wrote:
| Sodium has greater density than lithium, while most other
| materials used in a battery have similar densities regardless
| if sodium or lithium is used, so if a Na-ion battery and a
| LFP battery have about the same mass and stored energy, it is
| likely that the sodium-ion battery has a smaller volume.
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| that doesn't check out, capacity depends on surface area,
| if the element that is on the surface is heavier then, all
| other things equal, the battery will be heavier for same
| kWh.
|
| Sodium would need to be more efficient to be lighter, which
| it isn't
| adrian_b wrote:
| The maximum deliverable power depends on electrode area,
| through the maximum current density.
|
| The capacity of storing energy does not depend at all on
| area, but only on the mass of sodium contained in the
| battery and on the efficiency of using it (i.e. between
| full discharge and full charge not 100% of the sodium or
| lithium is cycled between the 2 oxidation states, but a
| fraction, e.g. 90%).
|
| Any battery has both an energy density and a power
| density, which are weakly correlated and the correlation
| may have opposite signs, i.e. for some batteries it may
| be possible to increase the power density if the energy
| density is lowered and vice-versa.
|
| For a given stored energy in kWh, the required mass of
| sodium is several times greater than the corresponding
| mass of lithium, by a factor that is the product of the
| atomic mass ratio with the ratio between the battery
| voltages. The voltages are similar, with a slight
| advantage for sodium, so the required mass of sodium is
| about 3 times the corresponding mass of lithium.
|
| If the complete batteries have about the same mass, that
| means that other components of the sodium-ion battery are
| smaller and/or lighter.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| Energy density of Na cells is lower, but it is the viable
| charge cycle count that is the show stopper issue for most
| markets. =3
| cogman10 wrote:
| They are also safer.
|
| Na will be big in grid storage, it's a perfect fit.
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| It is all about cost and efficiency... There is a classic
| 1913 electric vehicle that ran NiFe packs for many years,
| and were only replaced because the container rotted away.
| Sustainable storage costs real money, but has existed for
| over a century. =3
|
| https://www.veva.ca/1913detroitelectric
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery
| adrian_b wrote:
| I have no idea about the characteristics of these new sodium-
| ion batteries, but there is a great likelihood that they auto-
| discharge much faster than LFP batteries.
|
| This means that if you do not use the car for some time, you
| may need to recharge it before you can use it again. This may
| be a problem if the car is left far from a charger.
|
| Otherwise I agree with what you said.
| lightedman wrote:
| I suspect we will be finding this technology being used a fair
| bit in aerospace tech like satellites to compliment the onboard
| solar, given the low-temp operational capability.
| gpm wrote:
| Do satellite batteries run cold?
|
| Given the difficulty of radiating heat away I would have
| expected the opposite.
|
| Especially considering the incentive to send up as little
| battery as possible, and the very predictable day/night cycle
| leading to the ability to precisely predict how small a battery
| you can get away with...
| rcxdude wrote:
| Generally it's hard to control: it'll be hot sometimes and
| cold other times, so a wide operating time is useful.
| letharion wrote:
| What I wanted to know from the article: The CATL
| Naxtra sodium-ion battery will debut in the Changan Nevo A06
| sedan, delivering an estimated range of around 400 kilometers
| (249 miles) on the China Light-Duty Test Cycle.
|
| and It delivers 175 watt-hours per kilogram of
| energy density, which is lower than nickel-rich chemistries but
| roughly on par with LFP
| johanvts wrote:
| Thanks, I wanted to know about price. Isn't that the main
| benefit of sodium-ion. On par energy density with LFP, but a
| lot cheaper.
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| *potentially a lot cheaper.
|
| I've seen that repeated a lot but I still can't buy sodium
| batteries cheaper than lifepo...
| wirybeige wrote:
| Sodium batteries don't yet have the scale that lifepo4
| batteries have. I'd expect we will see them get cheaper.
| Flavius wrote:
| Retaining 90% range at -40degC sounds like a game changer, almost
| too good to be true. I'm definitely going to need to see some
| third-party real-world range tests to validate those claims
| before getting too excited.
| tedd4u wrote:
| And human occupants will still run the heater more in winter.
| But it sounds like there could be a future where makers offer a
| sodium battery and heat pump version of their cars for sale in
| colder climates.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > future where makers offer a sodium battery and heat pump
| version
|
| AFAIK most EVs already use heat pumps today, so the future
| happens whenever sodium batteries become mainstream.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| IIRC there are some surprising holdouts, at least in the NA
| market. For example as far as I'm aware the Mustang Mach-E
| still ships with a resistive heater.
| jopsen wrote:
| I think our id.4 2023 model already has that. It has crappy
| software too. Great car, drives fantastically, but horrific
| software!
|
| But if they add buttons back as planned, I might be willing
| to try a new id.4 in 5-10 years.
| metalman wrote:
| Running a preheater loop for the heat pump from the systems
| than need to be cooled, inverter and motor that run better
| cold,and other optimisations could likely supply cabin heat
| with very little battery draw, solar pv blended into the
| exterior could zero that out on an average basis,but 40 below
| is nothing to play with unless you know exactly what you are
| doing, even if they say it will still work.
|
| https://electrek.co/2026/02/05/first-sodium-ion-battery-
| ev-d...
| epistasis wrote:
| Gasoline engines are already 15% less efficient at 20F.
|
| https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather
|
| At -40F (-40C), it's generally good practice to just stay
| inside and not drive at all...
| seiferteric wrote:
| > Gasoline engines are already 15% less efficient at 20F.
|
| Is that actually true once the engine has reached operating
| temperature?
| helterskelter wrote:
| The temperature difference should in principle increase
| thermodynamic efficiency. You get loss of MPG from other
| factors though mentioned in the link, like increased
| friction of moving parts, idling to warm up (0MPG),
| defrosters/seat heaters, lower tire pressure, denser air to
| drive through, winter fuel mixes which may not have as much
| energy, etc.
| number6 wrote:
| Well you have to keep it at operating temperature
| jurgenburgen wrote:
| Assuming you can get the car to start (mine needs an engine
| warmer at that temperature), it takes at least 15 minutes
| of driving to reach that temperature. Unless you're going
| on a longer trip the engine most likely wont be warm by the
| time you reach your destination.
| gambiting wrote:
| Garages exist though.
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Heated ones are rarer.
| yencabulator wrote:
| I once had a condo with parking in a cave that was above
| freezing even when outside was -30 C (or F, close enough
| at that part of the scale). It was a great winter perk.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Schrodingers garage. Ceases to exists when talking about
| EV charging but exists when ICE vehicles need cold
| starts.
| yetihehe wrote:
| I had to drive in -30C once, the engine could not get up
| to final temperature after 2 hours of highway driving
| because I had to run cabin heater at full blast on
| windshield and side windows so they didn't cover with fog
| inside. But that was in very old low power car.
| epistasis wrote:
| Short trips are worse:
|
| > Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a
| conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15%
| lower at 20degF than it would be at 77degF. It can drop as
| much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips.
| colechristensen wrote:
| There are a bunch of things going on, and some people's
| measure of efficiency needs work.
|
| 1) winter blend fuels have less energy per volume, that
| doesn't make your engine any less efficient by energy but
| it does by volume of gas
|
| 2) lots of temporary cold effects: fuel vaporization, thick
| lubricants, etc. these things become less of a problem as
| the engine warms up but some energy is still lost on long
| drives
|
| 3) air resistance: all aerodynamic forces are linearly
| proportional with air density. At a constant pressure
| there's about a 15% difference in air density between the
| hottest and coldest places you can drive (and thus 15% less
| drag on a hot summer day than a cold winter day).
| aerodynamic forces are proportional to the square of your
| velocity and they become the largest resistive force around
| 50mph -- so at highway speeds you're losing efficiency
| because you have to push more air out of the way
|
| 4) energy used to maintain temperature: this is hard to
| calculate but some engine power is lost because the energy
| is used heating up the engine block and lost to the
| environment
|
| 5) the Thermodynamics 101 engine efficiency goes UP with
| increased temperature, but it's got a lot of real world
| effects to compete with, no spherical cows and all
| anjel wrote:
| Partial pressure variant fx on combustion outputs
| mylifeandtimes wrote:
| Once had a Porsche 914. Air cooled engine. Drove it across
| Montana and the Dakotas one winter. One very cold winter.
|
| Not sure the engine ever reached "operating temperature" on
| that drive.
| superjan wrote:
| That 15% loss reduces your range from 1000km to 850km? That
| hardly affects how useful the vehicle is. For EV that's
| different story.
| epistasis wrote:
| How many vehicles have a 650 mile range? Almost none. Plus
| you can't fill up at home with gasoline, like you can with
| an EV.
| gambiting wrote:
| You mean EVs? Yeah, none that I'm aware of. But
| petrol/diesel cars? Loads of them. Even my 400bhp Volvo
| XC60 will easily do 650 miles on one tank of fuel. A
| diesel one will do 700-800. And a diesel Passat will go
| over 1000 miles on a tank without trying. Hell, even my
| basic 1.6dCI Qashqai could do 700 miles on its 55 litre
| tank
| cherry_tree wrote:
| Volvo xc60 has an estimated 25 mpg overall
| (https://www.volvocarsrichmond.com/volvo-xc60-mpg.htm)
|
| It has an 18.8 gallon fuel capacity (https://www.volvocar
| s.com/lb/support/car/xc60/article/dfc6f0...)
|
| That's a max range of 470 miles. You would need much
| greater fuel efficiency above 34 mpg to get to 650 miles
| on an 18.8 gallon tank.
| gambiting wrote:
| Cool, I guess when I did 700 miles on a single tank of
| fuel driving Switzerland to Italy and then again driving
| Italy to Austria and then again Austria to Netherlands
| this summer I just imagined it. My total for the 3000
| miles was 38mpg(imperial).
|
| Also you are quoting a value for the B5, which is not
| what I have, mine is a T8(and before you ask - no, I
| didn't have any opportunity to charge it anywhere on the
| way).
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| you can have drum of fuel enough for entire winter in
| your garage, the fuck you mean by "can't fill up at
| home"?
| thebruce87m wrote:
| They mean that rounded to the nearest percent, 0% of
| people will be filling up their car at home from a drum.
| baq wrote:
| Every modern passenger car will show you 650 miles when
| driving at ~60mph. In the EU, anyway, and with a diesel
| engine.
| tbrownaw wrote:
| > _How many vehicles have a 650 mile range? Almost none._
|
| '22 Ford Escape hybrid
|
| The remaining miles thing shows less than that on a full
| tank, but I've been pretty consistently getting
| upper-600s between fill-ups.
|
| I suppose it would probably be less if I went on the
| interstate more.
| epistasis wrote:
| There's one. Go to a Car and Driver article about cars
| with extreme ranges, namely those over 650 miles, and
| they will start listing out particular years' models over
| a 10 year period in order to get to even ~10 models, and
| most of them are EcoBoost or variants or poor selling
| hybrid versions of other cars.
|
| Assuming a 1000km range is a very strange thing to do, as
| it's a fringe feature that almost no one needs or wants!
| Recall that "almost no one" means that there's still
| some, an existence of a handful of people on HN is quite
| consistent with "almost none."
| tbrownaw wrote:
| Of course I didn't pick it for range, I looked at price
| and miles of what the local carmax had and then
| separately looked up how tall the top of the windshield
| was.
|
| Which I would expect to typically find something that's,
| um, fairly typical on characteristics I wasn't selecting
| on.
| consp wrote:
| Comparing range of gasoline cars is idiotic. There are
| plenty of cars with long range (1000km), and they all
| have 60L+ fuel tanks and most run on diesel (which gives
| you ~15% more range per liter). It'd even argue the same
| for BEVs. More battery is more range.
| teraflop wrote:
| Note that this article's summary has a significant error
| compared to the original press release[1]. The article says
| "90% range", whereas the press release says "90% capacity
| retention".
|
| This is a big difference because there are all kinds of other
| factors besides energy capacity that can affect the
| _efficiency_ of the whole system, and therefore affect range.
|
| Most notably, air is about 28% denser at -40degC than at
| 25degC, so drag is about 28% higher. So you would expect
| roughly 28% less range at high speeds even if the battery has
| no capacity loss whatsoever.
|
| As someone else mentioned, climate control also consumes a lot
| more power when it has to maintain a larger temperature
| difference between inside and outside.
|
| [1]: https://www.catl.com/en/news/6720.html
| jfengel wrote:
| That implies that air resistance is the overwhelming
| contributor at high speeds. Is that the case?
| kalenx wrote:
| Considering air resistance is proportional to the cube of
| the speed, it would be highly surprising to not be the
| case.
| cameldrv wrote:
| It goes with the cube in terms of power, but with the
| square in terms of energy/distance, which is usually what
| you'd care about.
| pengaru wrote:
| s/cube/square/
| Saris wrote:
| Yes it is.
| gpm wrote:
| It's the majority, but overwhelming or not surprisingly
| appears to depend on car model, at least per some
| calculations someone on reddit ran [1].
|
| I'd add though that rolling resistance tends to be higher,
| on average, in winter too. When there's often a bit of snow
| on the roads... Less so on high speed highways admittedly.
|
| [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/l2cq6b/com
| ment/...
| baq wrote:
| Define 'high speeds'. There's a reason race cars look like
| they do, to the point of having serious problems driving at
| speeds just a bit below highway speed limit.
| aucisson_masque wrote:
| Oh yes, by so much.
|
| Even at 30kmph it's already the majority of the resistance
| and it scales exponentially with speed so you can imagine
| how much it matters.
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| I'd imagine also less rolling resistance from both rubber
| hardening and just roads being more slippery
|
| But TBF same factors affect ICE cars
| Joel_Mckay wrote:
| >almost too good to be true
|
| Since the Lithium battery prices dropped, there are many Sodium
| battery companies simply abandoning the research or shuttering.
| Not a good sign when smart people jump ship.
|
| The Na cells also have lower energy-density, and currently
| fewer viable charge cycles. One can still buy evaluation
| samples, but it takes time to figure out if the technology will
| make economic sense.
|
| Best regards =3
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| Chemistry-wise it checks out, it was long touted advantage of
| sodium, just that they probably ignored rest of the problems in
| winter
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| I don't imagine the difference is very significant on long
| drives. If the car is cold soaked at -30, it uses about 10kW
| for the first 3km. Then everything is warmed up, and the ~25%
| difference is increased consumption, not decreased battery
| capacity.
|
| As long as you have a heat pump harvesting the waste heat to
| keep the battery up to temp.
|
| But might be significant on short drives, 10kW for the first 3
| km is massive.
| rayiner wrote:
| Yeah, this heat up effect is massive for around-town use. We
| have had below freezing weather for two weeks, which is very
| unusual here in Annapolis. That's had a huge impact on my
| wife's use case, which involves a bunch of 5-10 mile trips to
| drop the kids off at school, go on a grocery run, pick the
| kids up, take the kids to math tutoring, etc. She ran out of
| charge the other day during drop-off b/c the "37 miles left"
| we had the night before was actually a lot less than that
| accounting for warming the battery up the next day.
| maayank wrote:
| Why would that be a game changer? Genuinely curious.
| instagib wrote:
| "As always, we'll have to wait for independent testing for real-
| world results."
|
| interested in hot desert weather performance which often gets
| lost in the averages.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Generally just not an issue. The biggest problem with deserts
| is battery degradation and not so much range problems.
| ezfe wrote:
| I don't understand what these headlines are really about, given
| that 75% of the range loss in my EV is from CABIN climate
| control.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That seems really out of proportion with the experience of
| others, you may want to get it checked out. Do you have an
| older model with resistive heat and no seat heaters?
| ebiederm wrote:
| My EV is absolutely terrible range wise at cold weather. It is
| EPA rated at 220miles of range. I only see that when the
| temperature is at or above 80F.
|
| Most of the winter it tells me I can only do between 100 and
| 120 miles. It is definitely half the EPA range with climate
| controls disabled at 0F. (Ask me how I know).
|
| I love driving it in the winter. I don't have a pressing need
| to go long distances, so that is not a current concern. Not
| having to stand outside in the bitter cold to fuel up in
| absolutely awesome.
|
| There are EVs on the market that do much, much better than mine
| in cool weather and I now know what to look for.
|
| To really penetrate the midwest it will take a car that can
| realistically do a road trip to Florida from say Duluth, MN or
| Michigan's UP in the winter.
|
| Because not only do folks in the midwest drive long distances
| without a second thought, they sometimes do it in the cold of
| winter so they can get a break from the snow.
|
| So yes still getting 90% of the range at -40C does sound
| attractive.
| sagarm wrote:
| Does your vehicle have a heat pump?
| anthonyIPH wrote:
| Do any US automakers have anything in the pipes using Sodium-Ion
| batteries? A quick search turned up info on a plant mass
| producing the batteries in Holland, MI but no mention of when
| they would be available. As someone in the market for an EV
| within the next year or 2, and also currently enduring a month
| long stretch of temps in the single digits and below, cold
| weather performance has suddenly become a huge consideration.
| loeg wrote:
| Cold weather performance with heat pumps and lithium batteries
| is fine. Don't worry about it. I wouldn't try to hold my breath
| until a US automaker produces a sodium battery EV.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| It's only "fine" if you live in the southern US where
| freezing conditions are rare and/or never drive anywhere near
| your winter range and you have a garage charger or some other
| easy access to a charge station. Anything outside of those
| conditions and winter range issues are painful.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| And yet, some of the biggest proponents of EVs live in
| frigid areas of Canada and the US. As it turns out, range
| loss is not really a huge deal for a lot of people, but
| being able to get in your car and drive without worrying
| about whether it will start at all is nice. No plugging in
| a block heater, no worry about fuel gelling, no warm up
| time. And you can pre-condition the interior so it is warm
| when you get in. With a modern EV you could lose 50% range
| and still have plenty for your daily commute. Even a fairly
| long commute.
| gambiting wrote:
| Norway regularly sees -30C in winter and EVs account for
| like 99% of sales there, it made the news that in January
| only 7 ICE cars were sold in the entire country.
| TheCraiggers wrote:
| It's also a different country with a different culture,
| etc. Norwegians drive roughly 50% less than people in the
| US. There's probably a bunch of contributing factors, but
| the point is that reduced range is less of a problem if
| you drive less.
|
| I'll be the first to say we need less range anxiety, and
| Norway is awesome. But we need to be careful comparing
| the US to Norway here.
| wat10000 wrote:
| Having a garage charger and never driving more than your
| winter range on any given day is a pretty common situation.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Nah dude, I live in Canada, we're having a record cold
| winter here, and it's really not bad. My car (Polestar 2)
| is one of the least efficient, has no heat pump in my year,
| and only has a ~225km effective range in winter (~300 in
| summer) but .. I have zero range anxiety, there's no pain,
| it's not annoying. The number of times one is driving that
| far in a single trip is miniscule, but there's DC fast
| chargers all along the highways that take the edge off, and
| there are cars with far larger range anyways.
| mperham wrote:
| Yes, most people don't drive 200 mi/day. It's really ok.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| LFP battery production in the US only recently reached larger
| scale; so I expect it will be a while before they get around to
| sodium ion. With all the tariffs, they'd have to license
| technology and build local factories to get started. That will
| probably be a few years at least. Or the tariffs might become
| more reasonable at some point and they could import battery
| cells a bit sooner than that. But probably not until the end of
| this decade.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| If you remove Tesla and Rivian from the equation, US automakers
| are actively curtailing EV production period.
|
| The US administration has basically told them to do so.
|
| So don't expect any innovation on this front from the middle of
| the North American continent. It's being actively sabotaged.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > The US administration has basically told them to do so.
|
| Any US automaker relying on Trump staying in office is
| playing with fire. Yes, you may see reduced or zero _press
| releases_ and budgets for EV research being "reallocated" on
| paper so the toddler in chief doesn't get a public tantrum -
| but assuming there will be free and fair elections this year,
| it is highly, highly likely that Congress will be solid blue
| and reinstate a lot of what Trump has cut down, only this
| time as an actual law that is far harder to cancel than
| executive orders.
|
| And everyone _not_ hedging for this possibility will wreck
| their company 's future.
| threemux wrote:
| There is no realistic path to a veto-proof majority for
| Democrats in the midterm elections. If there was, Trump
| would be impeached and removed before EVs were addressed.
|
| Don't expect any movement on EV legislation unless and
| until Democrats take back the White House in 2028
| stinkbeetle wrote:
| What did the administration say to them?
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Axed EV subsidization, openly called EVs -- and climate
| change -- a scam, and then made noises about cutting
| emissions standards, and aggressively pursued fossil fuel
| expansion?
|
| That and threw tariffs on the auto makers parts and imports
| such that their businesses are under threat?
|
| GM just axed the Bolt again. The only domestic affordable
| EV. Stellantis killed all of theirs, from what I hear. And
| Ford has pulled back as well.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| Likely No. Undecided with Matt Ferrell recently did a video on
| how sodium ion batterys startup in the US (not necessarily for
| EVs, but other power applications) have had challenges largely
| due to the falling price of lithium making sodium batteries
| less competitive on price the past couple years:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nrTCgZmUFCY
|
| OTOH, there are seemingly more lithium iron phosphate (LFP)
| battery ev options now - rivian now uses LFP, Ford mustang
| mach-e has had a LFP variant since fall 2023 (and should have
| other models using LFP in 2027), I think the 2026 chevy bolt
| uses LFP, etc.
| loeg wrote:
| Nothing in the article really substantiates the headline
| (currently "The First Sodium-Ion Battery EV IS a Winter Range
| Monster").
|
| The EV described in the article has a standardized range of 250
| miles. This isn't a range monster in any condition. There is some
| gesturing that Sodium batteries don't require as much active
| heating in cold conditions. But nothing is quantified.
|
| As usual with sci-tech broadly and batteries specifically: it's
| exciting that sodium batteries are coming to market; we can be
| optimistic that maybe in the future they will provide lots of
| range, or be less expensive, or maybe less flammable than today's
| lithium batteries. But the marketing hype is running miles ahead
| of reality.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > But the marketing hype is running miles ahead of reality.
|
| The marketing hype is the true range monster
| cess11 wrote:
| It makes this claim:
|
| "The Long-Range Version sets a new record for light commercial
| vehicles with a single-pack capacity of 253 kWh, achieving a
| maximum range of 800km."
|
| That would be some 720 km at -40 C if the numbers are correct.
| I'm not well versed in this area and not sure if these
| batteries are comparable to those in personal vehicles, but the
| ones I've heard owners talk about have a reach at about half
| that if it's cold at all.
| baq wrote:
| Even 620 would be absolutely not an issue, this is the
| difference I get from my diesel car basically
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > less flammable than today's lithium batteries
|
| If we put aside the politics, what are the actual statistics
| behind lithium battery fires today? And don't LFP's have
| negligible fire risk?
|
| I feel like my gasser F250 had a higher risk of spontaneously
| combusting.
| fatbird wrote:
| The problem isn't spontaneous combustion, it's having an
| accident where the battery is damaged, causing runaway
| combustion.
|
| No one burned to death inside a Tesla while driving normally.
| It's always following a crash.
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| I'd imagine if tesla stared to burn they wouldn't "drive
| normally"...
| gambiting wrote:
| Unlike in traditional vehicles, most EVs have such a robust
| firewall between the battery and the passenger compartments
| you literally have 1+ minute to get out, compared to often
| seconds in a traditional vehicle.
|
| And I've been following Polish firefighters reports about
| EV fires and they are very interesting - basically saying
| that in all recent cases of EV fires they were contained so
| quickly even the interior was largely undamaged - something
| that practically never happens with regular cars. Some of
| these have been in underground garages too, with difficulty
| of access - but nowadays they just know how to approach an
| EV fire and containment isn't a problem.
| idontwantthis wrote:
| > Unlike LFP or nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) packs, it
| reportedly avoids severe winter range loss, retaining more than
| 90% of its range at -40 degrees C (-40 degrees F). Power
| delivery is also said to remain stable at temperatures as low
| as -50 degrees C (-58 degrees F).
|
| That is exactly the substance of the headline.
| Anduia wrote:
| Less bloated site:
|
| https://carnewschina.com/2026/01/22/catl-unveils-worlds-firs...
| smiley1437 wrote:
| Out the gate, sodium ion advantages are so significant that
| unless there is some surprise show-stopper it will likely become
| the dominant energy storage medium.
|
| Crustal abundance up to 1000x that of lithium - pretty much every
| nation has effectively unlimited supply, it's no longer a barrier
| or a geographically limited resource like lithium.
|
| No significant damage going down to 0V, can even be stored at 0V
| - much safer than lithium which gets excitable once out of its
| prefered voltage range.
|
| Cold weather performance down to -30C - northern latitude users
| don't have as much range anxiety in the winter.
|
| Basically, the only problem I see is that companies that have
| made significant long-term investments in lithium could take a
| big hit. Countries that banked on their lithium reserves as a key
| future resource for will have to adjust their strategy.
|
| Lithium batteries will likely still have a place in the high
| performance realm but but for the majority of run-of-the-mill
| applications - everything from customer electronics to EVs to
| offgrid storage - it's hard to see how sodium-ion wouldn't
| quickly replace it.
| gpm wrote:
| Energy density matters a lot for many applications, including
| customer electroncs and EVs. Sodium ion is at a fundamental
| disadvantage (sodium is heavier than lithium).
|
| I don't doubt that sodium ion has a place... but whether it
| takes over as the dominant battery type for portable
| applications strikes me as very dependent on the future of
| lithium extraction. It seems like a place that has a lot of
| room to grow more efficient and thus more competitive on cost.
| djoldman wrote:
| It seems the remaining disadvantage is energy density. If they
| can figure that out, it should win?
| adrian_b wrote:
| It is impossible for sodium-ion batteries to reach the same
| energy density as the best lithium-ion batteries.
|
| So lithium-ion batteries will never be replaced in
| smartphones or laptops by sodium-ion batteries.
|
| But there are plenty of applications where the energy density
| of sodium-ion batteries is sufficient. Eventually sodium-ion
| batteries will be much cheaper and this is why they will
| replace lithium-ion batteries in all cheap cars and for most
| stationary energy storage (except when lower auto-discharge
| is desired).
| Flere-Imsaho wrote:
| No mention of degradation as a result of recharge cycles. So
| many of my electronic devices have had to be disposed of
| because the battery would no longer hold a charge. This is also
| a big factor in EVs and their loss of value over time.
| smiley1437 wrote:
| CATL claims 10,000 cycles for the Naxtra:
|
| https://battery-news.de/en/2026/01/26/catl-presents-
| sodium-i...
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| Can/will sodium ion go spicy pillow?
| dyauspitr wrote:
| This with 500-600 miles range means the end of ICE. 250 is still
| too little since that will realistically be closer to 150-160 if
| you're consistently driving 74-80 mph.
| decimalenough wrote:
| Unfortunately sodium ion is less dense than lithium ion, so
| range is lower too.
|
| Since it's also cheaper, it's likely that Na-ion will be
| adopted by cheaper city runabout type EVs, while premium long
| range EVs will continue using Li-ion.
| cameldrv wrote:
| I saw a CATL presentation where they were hyping a hybrid
| lithium-sodium pack. Their version of sodium ion could
| charge/discharge faster than LFP, and handle lower
| temperatures. The hybrid then gives you a nice combination of
| features. You get better density/range from LFP, but if you
| have to start in the cold, the sodium-ion can get you going,
| and then with active cooling you can heat the LFP using the
| waste heat from the sodium ion for the rest of the trip.
| Since the sodium ion charges faster, you can charge part of
| the overall pack really fast, so you can make a quick trip to
| the charger and add ~50%. If you live in a cold climate area
| it seems like a very good combination.
| nharada wrote:
| This is awesome and I'm really happy to see this progress.
| Landing a new chemistry in a production car THIS YEAR is some
| crazy velocity, especially compared to where other Na-Ion
| batteries are in the development cycle elsewhere. Is anyone else
| even close to having a car on the road with their cells?
|
| The reason this is so exciting for me personally is for
| stationary energy. Because the raw materials are so abundant and
| have good cold weather performance, both grid and home level
| energy storage costs should come down significantly as this is
| commercialized further.
| clawlrbot wrote:
| Incrementally better. But not a monster.
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Question: if a LiIon battery can't deliver as much energy when
| cold, where does the lost energy go? Is it just unavailable, and
| becomes available again when warmed up? Is discharge less
| efficient, so the energy is wasted? Or does charging stop early
| when cold, so there's less to be discharged in the first place?
| coryrc wrote:
| > Is discharge less efficient, so the energy is wasted?
|
| Yes. It's mostly wasted as heat inside the battery. I think
| there's also a temperature relationship to open-circuit
| voltage? But the predominate effect is from elevated internal
| resistance.
| cogman10 wrote:
| I believe you are correct. Temp causes the voltage to drop
| faster. It does raise as the battery heats up.
| stavros wrote:
| This is an educated guess, but I think it becomes less
| efficient, so it heats up, and then performs better as it
| heats. I assume this to be the case because I charge my RC
| plane LiPos the same way every time, and they take the same
| amount of energy, but flying in the winter gives much shorter
| flight times. Since the battery is warm after a flight, even in
| the cold, I don't think the energy is still there the battery
| is still discharged when I take it home), so it must just be
| much less efficient and wasting a lot of energy as heat.
|
| I assume it's just that its internal resistance rises when it's
| cold, but I might be wrong.
| goalieca wrote:
| Batteries can freeze solid. It takes energy to keep them warm
| with an heater. Then there's cabin heating which is usually
| warmed by heat from combustion in a gas engine.
| bilsbie wrote:
| Dumb question but I've always wondered if we could make a giant
| "hand warmer" type chemistry around the battery and use that to
| get it going in cold environments.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| One way I've seen of doing this is to include a PTC heater.
| It's a heating element that you feed DC. It has a positive
| coefficient of resistivity vs. temperature, so it'll
| asymptotically approach a temperature defined by the structure
| of the material. No PID controller required, it's just a sheet
| of material you include in the battery structure.
|
| Granted, you have a minor bootstrapping issue wherein you need
| the battery to be warm before you use battery power, but at
| very low % of the battery's power capacity I suspect it's less
| of an issue.
| cyanydeez wrote:
| Two things EVs need to be everywhere for me. Range and STOP
| MAKING UGLY SUVs.
| Animats wrote:
| Remember those Donut/Verge solid state batteries, which were
| supposed to ship in Q1 2026? That just slipped to the end of 2026
| or 2027.[1] Supposedly they're delayed by needing "certification"
| for their motorcycle.
|
| (The motorcycle is real, and has been out for years. This is just
| a battery upgrade.)
|
| [1] https://insideevs.com/news/786388/verge-motorcycles-donut-
| la...
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