[HN Gopher] Exploiting signed bootloaders to circumvent UEFI Sec...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Exploiting signed bootloaders to circumvent UEFI Secure Boot
        
       Author : todsacerdoti
       Score  : 82 points
       Date   : 2026-02-08 14:40 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (habr.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (habr.com)
        
       | ronsor wrote:
       | (2019)
       | 
       | The biggest weakness of secure boot was always third-party
       | vendors shipping "insecure" bootloaders. It's a lot of work to
       | verify signatures for every bit of data that gets loaded,
       | especially on the PC platform.
        
         | jeroenhd wrote:
         | Thre original secure boot design would have had insecure
         | bootloaders get blacklisted the moment abuse could be detected.
         | 
         | Microsoft then made that system entirely useless by signing
         | code that could be used to load unsigned code, like
         | demonstrated here.
         | 
         | They then also refused to blacklist their own broken bootloader
         | to save sysadmins the time (who would need to deploy new
         | recovery images and boot media containing the fixed
         | bootloader). That vulnerable bootloader is particularly bad
         | because it can be used to have the TPM unlock itself and give
         | up the Bitlocker key, which the Linux loaders shouldn'tbe
         | capable of even if they apply the bypass mentioned in the
         | article.
         | 
         | In a world where Microsoft cared about secure boot, they would
         | blacklist the vulnerable Linux loaders as well as their own old
         | bootloaders. Why Microsoft? Because they signed the files in
         | the first place, only they can rescind the signatures. In that
         | world, Linux users would call for Bill Gates' head for securing
         | their security feature and sysadmins would be out for Steve
         | Ballmer's blood for breaking their complex custom recovery
         | system that nobody dares touch.
         | 
         | Now we'll be stuck in the worst of both worlds.
        
           | gruez wrote:
           | >They then also refused to blacklist their own broken
           | bootloader to save sysadmins the time (who would need to
           | deploy new recovery images and boot media containing the
           | fixed bootloader).
           | 
           | Source? The OP suggests they expect it to be blacklisted
           | 
           | >I assume that Kaspersky bootloader signature certificate
           | will not live long, and it will be added to global UEFI
           | certificate revocation list, which will be installed on
           | computers running Windows 10 via Windows Update
           | 
           | If you search around you'll also find that microsoft does
           | publish secure boot revocations, contrary to what you claim.
           | 
           | https://github.com/fwupd/dbx-firmware
        
             | jeroenhd wrote:
             | They blacklist some bootloaders, but it takes them forever.
             | CVE-2023-24932 (from May 2023) had a fix available a year
             | later (June 2024), had the update broadly made available
             | through standard updates in 2025 (2 years later) and
             | doesn't automatically install it today.
             | 
             | You might think the 2025 update will solve the problem,
             | but:
             | 
             | > Before following these steps for applying the
             | mitigations, install the Windows monthly servicing update
             | released on July 8, 2025, or a later update on supported
             | Windows devices. This update includes mitigations for
             | CVE-2023-24932 but they are not enabled by default. All
             | Windows devices should complete this step regardless of
             | your plan to enable the mitigations.
             | 
             | The current status for the update
             | (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/how-to-manage-
             | the-...) says:
             | 
             | > The Enforcement Phase will not begin before January 2026,
             | and we will give at least six months of advance warning in
             | this article before this phase begins. When updates are
             | released for the Enforcement Phase, they will include the
             | following:
             | 
             | Basically, unless your company and sysadmin have enforced
             | this fix (i.e. you're a home user), Microsoft hasn't
             | revoked their keys.
             | 
             | Then there's CVE-2024-38058, a similar attack. Microsoft
             | tried to roll out a fix, but that broke compatibility, and
             | the fix was then rolled back. Again, that problem can be
             | fixed with the solution for the previous CVE, but that is
             | still not deployed by default.
             | 
             | https://neodyme.io/en/blog/bitlocker_screwed_without_a_scre
             | w... describes the TPM2 attack in detail as well as
             | mitigations and solutions much better than I can.
        
           | rcxdude wrote:
           | A better design would not involve a small default-trusted set
           | of keys in the first place. If the signers were diverse and
           | on equal footing, with users choosing who to trust, a single
           | bad bootloader being signed would not compromise nearly the
           | whole ecosystem.
        
           | Lucasoato wrote:
           | I feel like this isn't the best moment to call Bill Gates. Or
           | maybe yes, maybe he'll open source Windows at this point, who
           | knows!
        
         | mjg59 wrote:
         | Third party? Black Lotus was the first case we saw actually
         | targeting individuals, and that was a vulnerability in the
         | Windows bootloader.
        
       | Bratmon wrote:
       | It's really funny to me that Microsoft's attempt to finally stamp
       | out desktop Linux once and for all failed because one of
       | Microsoft's antivirus vendor partners couldn't write secure
       | software to save their lives.
       | 
       | The continued Linux desktop solely relies on antivirus vendors
       | writing crappy insecure software. So we'll be fine forever.
        
         | bri3d wrote:
         | > It's really funny to me that Microsoft's attempt to finally
         | stamp out desktop Linux once and for all failed
         | 
         | This conspiracy was never true and never happened. First off,
         | note that the first version of the thing in the article you're
         | commenting on relied on a Fedora shim loader which Microsoft
         | signed. Second off, note that almost all modern motherboards
         | let you enroll your own UEFI keys and do not rely on
         | exclusively the Microsoft keys.
         | 
         | The only place this is was becoming an issue for Linux was
         | early Secure Boot implementations where the vendor was too lazy
         | to allow key enrollment, and that era has generally passed.
        
           | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
           | I don't think it deserves quite that easy a dismissal; MS
           | _did_ lock down early UEFI+ARM devices and prohibit user-
           | controlled keys (see the Windows RT devices as an example).
           | Given their history of playing dirty, it 's perfectly
           | reasonable that people assumed this to be another play at
           | undermining Linux, even if things didn't end up going that
           | way.
        
             | bri3d wrote:
             | By 2019, when the parent article was written, I don't think
             | that was a good read on the situation. By 2026, when the
             | parent comment was written, I really don't think it's a
             | good read on the situation.
        
           | pbhjpbhj wrote:
           | It's hard to believe when MS use secure boot to prevent Linux
           | being able to boot. Twice now on my dual boot system a
           | Windows update has prevented Linux being bootable. If it
           | weren't for MS's history one might consider it the accident
           | of a ridiculously inept company.
           | 
           | Even just the lies around required hw updates is enough not
           | to trust them.
           | 
           | SecureBoot looks like a system designed to make it hard to
           | change OS, it has been used by MS for that, MS have a history
           | of user-antagonist actions.
           | 
           | You say the conspiracy was never true, I'm going to need some
           | serious proof.
        
             | NekkoDroid wrote:
             | > SecureBoot looks like a system designed to make it hard
             | to change OS
             | 
             | To be fair SecureBoot is in a way just that: it is intended
             | to only boot binaries that are signed with a key that has
             | been enrolled into the UEFI. The main issue is like almost
             | always how those keys are managed.
        
         | invokestatic wrote:
         | No, this is not true at all. Microsoft _requires_ their system
         | vendors (Dell, HP, etc) to allow users to enroll their own
         | Secure Boot keys through their "Designed for Windows"
         | certification.
         | 
         | Further, many distributions are already compatible with Secure
         | Boot and work out of the box. Whether or not giving Microsoft
         | the UEFI root of trust was a good idea is questionable, but
         | what they DO have is a long, established history of supporting
         | Linux secure boot. They sign a UEFI shim that allows
         | distributions to sign their kernels with their own,
         | distribution-controlled keys in a way that just works on 99% of
         | PCs.
        
           | mhitza wrote:
           | Is it possible to un-enroll the Microsoft certificates, and
           | just trust the efi shim?
        
             | bri3d wrote:
             | With almost all modern motherboard firmware you can enter
             | Setup mode and use KeyTool to configure the trust store
             | however you want, starting from enrolling a user PK
             | (Platform Key) upwards.
             | 
             | It's generally a lot more secure to avoid the use of any
             | shims (since they leave you vulnerable to what happened in
             | this article) and just build a UEFI Kernel Image and sign
             | that.
             | 
             | Some systems need third party firmware to reach the OS, and
             | this can get a bit more complicated since those modules
             | need to load with the new user keys, but overall what you
             | are asking is generally possible.
        
               | mistrial9 wrote:
               | > just build a UEFI Kernel Image and sign that.
               | 
               | examples and documentation welcome
        
               | bri3d wrote:
               | https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Unified_kernel_image#uki
               | fy_...
        
               | trelane wrote:
               | https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Secure_Boot
        
             | NekkoDroid wrote:
             | > Is it possible to un-enroll the Microslop certificates
             | 
             | Technically yes, with a massive fucking asterisk: Some
             | option-ROM are signed with the MS certs and if your
             | Motherboard doesn't support not loading those (whether
             | needed or not) you will not be able to sometimes even POST.
             | 
             | https://github.com/Foxboron/sbctl/wiki/FAQ#option-rom
        
         | TacticalCoder wrote:
         | > It's really funny to me that Microsoft's attempt to finally
         | stamp out desktop Linux once and for all
         | 
         | SecureBoot exists on servers too. And that's the domain of
         | Linux, not Windows.
         | 
         | Microsoft should never have had so much influence in SecureBoot
         | but there's no way they're getting rid of Linux on servers.
         | Microsoft is mostly irrelevant there.
         | 
         | > The continued Linux desktop solely relies on antivirus
         | vendors writing crappy insecure software. So we'll be fine
         | forever.
         | 
         | That's also a weird take. It's antivirus vendors who are going
         | to be fine forever: they rely on Microsoft to write crappy
         | insecure software. And that is a given.
        
           | ThrowawayB7 wrote:
           | If you Google around, you'll find that about 1/3 of server
           | operating systems broken down by revenue (not install count)
           | is Windows Server. That's billions of dollars.
        
       | bri3d wrote:
       | > Most motherboards include only Microsoft keys as trusted
       | 
       | Is this really true, in 2019 when this was written or today? I
       | haven't seen a motherboard that didn't let me enroll my own keys
       | in a really long time. Laptops are a different story but even
       | there, it's been awhile.
       | 
       | > Microsoft forbid to sign software licensed under GPLv3 because
       | of tivoization restriction license rule
       | 
       | Ah yes, GPLv3 is now Microsoft's fault?
        
         | NekkoDroid wrote:
         | > Is this really true, in 2019 when this was written or today?
         | 
         | This is true in the sense that they only ship with MS' keys as
         | trusted, but all MoBos (including laptops) I had allow
         | enrolling your own. Some might handle not having MS' keys
         | better (or at all) than others, but it should in theory be
         | possible to remove them, whether it will boot after is a
         | different question (see option-ROM [1])
         | 
         | [1]: https://github.com/Foxboron/sbctl/wiki/FAQ#option-rom
        
         | TacticalCoder wrote:
         | >Ah yes, GPLv3 is now Microsoft's fault?
         | 
         | You are missing the point. It's the fault of those who pushed
         | SecureBoot down our throats (and don't get me wrong: I use
         | SecureBoot) to have decided that Microsoft had both a free-pass
         | to have its certs by default in every UEFI out there but no
         | other certs.
         | 
         | So users either have to understand how to enroll their own
         | certs _or_ to use a shim signed by... Microsoft.
         | 
         | Let's not forget that we're talking about the company
         | responsible for Windows 11 here.
        
           | bri3d wrote:
           | > You are missing the point
           | 
           | Of the GPLv3 sentence? No, it's dishonest rhetorically. Of
           | the piece? Also I don't think so, exploiting the shims is a
           | fun way to prove that Secure Boot is silly but we already
           | knew that, and by 2019 claiming that "most" systems only
           | allowed Microsoft keys is just flat out dishonest as well.
           | 
           | > It's the fault of those who pushed SecureBoot down our
           | throats (and don't get me wrong: I use SecureBoot) to have
           | decided that Microsoft had both a free-pass to have its certs
           | by default in every UEFI out there but no other certs.
           | 
           | I really don't get this argument in general; Microsoft certs
           | are enrolled by default as a combination of: a matter of
           | convenience for majority users who are going to use Microsoft
           | OSes, the unfortunate design of Option ROM signature
           | checking, and the desire to get a Windows logo on the
           | packaging and Microsoft OEM discounts.
           | 
           | There's no Secure Boot or UEFI related reason that boards
           | can't come in Setup Mode with no PK, and most industrial
           | boards do indeed come this way, since they don't need Option
           | ROMs and customers don't want a Microsoft logo.
           | 
           | > So users either have to understand how to enroll their own
           | certs or to use a shim signed by... Microsoft.
           | 
           | This seems like the best outcome for end-user computers which
           | will have Windows installed to me? Users get a computer that
           | checks that the OS it came with is valid (well, tries to, but
           | that's a different can of worms), and still have the option
           | to do whatever they want with it if they so desire. They can
           | choose the Microsoft signed shim for convenient dual-booting,
           | or erase the platform keys and own their system end to end if
           | they wish.
           | 
           | > Let's not forget that we're talking about the company
           | responsible for Windows 11 here.
           | 
           | I've never really understood these arguments, and it's even
           | weirder to bring Windows 11 into it. Is the thing we're
           | railing against here Ballmer-Borg Microsoft? Shitty Product
           | Management Kills Products Microsoft? AI Infested Microsoft?
           | The Venn diagram of overlap between 1990s Microsoft (genesis
           | of UEFI), 2012 Microsoft (Secure Boot introduction), and 2025
           | Microsoft (Windows 11) seems likely to be... quite small.
        
       | mjevans wrote:
       | Empowering the 'User' (hardware owner) should have always been
       | the focus.
       | 
       | From that mindset what makes sense are hardware vendors including
       | a cache of trusted third party root certificates from known other
       | vendors. Today this would include Microsoft, the same said
       | hardware vendor, probably various respected Linux
       | organizations/groups (Offhand, Linux Foundation, ArchLinux,
       | Debian, IBM/RedHat, Oracle, SUSE, etc), similar for BSD...
       | 
       | Crucially the end user should then be ASKED which to enable. None
       | should be enrolled out of the box. They might also be enabled
       | only for specific things. E.G. HW vendor could be enabled only
       | for new system firmware signatures (load using the existing
       | software) rather than generic UEFI boot targets. The user should
       | also be able to enroll their own CA certs as well; multiple of
       | them. Useful for Organization, Division Unit, and system local
       | signatures.
       | 
       | It would also, really, be nice if UEFI mandated a uniform access
       | API (maybe it does) for local blobs stored in non mass-storage
       | space. This would be a great place to stash things like UEFI
       | drivers for accessing additional types of hardware drivers, OS
       | boot bits + small related files, etc. I would have said 1GB of
       | storage would be more than sufficient for this - however
       | Microsoft has proven that assumption incorrect. Still it'd be
       | nice to have a standard place and a feature that says the system
       | ships with this much reliable secondary storage included (or
       | maybe 1-2 micro-SD card slots, etc).
        
         | mistrial9 wrote:
         | > Crucially the end user should then be ASKED which to enable
         | 
         | except, on the other side of the "strange fellows" are people
         | who rose to executive authority by ruthless focus on control of
         | every aspect of their business, and profit including excluding
         | others who did actual work. There is zero point zero chance of
         | any argument that relies on "should" to work IMHO
         | 
         | this is a political situation by definition -- vastly different
         | yet connected members of society and economics, seeking the
         | rule of law to enable stable markets. hint- some of the same
         | decision makers are the ones that pay to put spy code in your
         | large new TV or appliances.
        
         | NekkoDroid wrote:
         | > From that mindset what makes sense are hardware vendors
         | including a cache of trusted third party root certificates from
         | known other vendors. Today this would include Microslop, the
         | same said hardware vendor, probably various respected Linux
         | organizations/groups (Offhand, Linux Foundation, ArchLinux,
         | Debian, IBM/RedHat, Oracle, SUSE, etc), similar for BSD...
         | 
         | IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default with
         | no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you decide to
         | install should be able to enroll its keys.
         | 
         | This way it is entirely agnostic of any cherrypicked list of
         | "trust me" vendors. You'd still have most of the benefits of
         | easy secure boot enrolling for those that don't know what it
         | even is/how to do it while also allowing easy choosing of other
         | OSes (at least on initial first boot).
         | 
         | The main problem currently is option-ROM which has a tendency
         | to cause the system to not even POST if secure boot is enabled
         | without MS keys. Recently bricked a MoBo this way and even
         | though it has 2 BIOS I can't actively choose which one to boot,
         | it just has some "trust me, I know when" logic that chooses...
         | well guess how well that is working for me...). The Asrock
         | board I replaced it with though has an option for what it
         | should do with such option-ROM when secure boot is active
         | (don't run, always run, run if signed, ...)
         | 
         | > The user should also be able to enroll their own CA certs as
         | well; multiple of them. Useful for Organization, Division Unit,
         | and system local signatures.
         | 
         | Isn't this already the status quo??
         | 
         | > It would also, really, be nice if UEFI mandated a uniform
         | access API (maybe it does) for local blobs stored in non mass-
         | storage space. [...]
         | 
         | I think UEFI is already complex enough and most of this can in
         | a way already somewhat be handled by the EFI System Partition,
         | e.g. systemd-boot can tell the UEFI to load (file system)
         | drivers off of it (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd-
         | boot#Supported_file...), I don't know if UEFI technically
         | supports other types of drivers to be loaded.
        
           | bitwize wrote:
           | > IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default
           | with no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you
           | decide to install should be able to enroll its keys.
           | 
           | Nobody wants to "install" an operating system. Computers
           | should come with an OS preinstalled and ready to run.
           | Everything else is a dead letter in terms of the marketplace.
        
             | NekkoDroid wrote:
             | I was talking about the same "install" that is already done
             | (pre-installed on the drive that is first booted).
             | 
             | Enrolling certs into the UEFI isn't something that needs to
             | be done manually when "Setup Mode" is enabled, the
             | bootloader can automatically enroll them.
             | 
             | This already is a thing with the exception of the ship in
             | "Setup Mode" part. Though some motherboard UEFI
             | implementations are shit (as to be expected) and shit their
             | pants when this happens.
             | 
             | See last paragraph in this section as example: https://www.
             | freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst...
        
               | bri3d wrote:
               | What would be the point of this change? It erodes
               | security in some moderately meaningful way (even easier
               | to supply chain new computers by swapping the boot disk)
               | to add what amounts to either a nag screen or nothing, in
               | exchange for some ideological purity about Microsoft
               | certificates?
        
               | NekkoDroid wrote:
               | It really doesn't. UEFI are still not by default locked
               | behind a password (can't be locked since you couldn't
               | change settings in the UEFI if that were the case), so
               | anyone that has access to change a drive can also disable
               | secure boot or enroll their own keys if they want to do
               | an actual supply chain attack.
               | 
               | If your threat model is "has access to the system before
               | first boot" you are fucked on anything that isn't locked
               | down to only the manufacturer.
        
               | bri3d wrote:
               | What if my threat model is "compromised the disk imaging
               | / disk supply chain?" This is a plausible and real threat
               | model, and represents a moderate erosion, like I said.
               | 
               | UEFI Secure Boot is also just not a meaningful
               | countermeasure to anyone with even a moderate paranoia
               | level anyway, so it's all just goofing around at this
               | point from a security standpoint. All of these "add more
               | nag screens for freedom" measures like the grandparent
               | post and yours don't really seem useful to me, though.
        
             | lacunary wrote:
             | I have always enjoyed the experience of installing my
             | favorite hobbyist teletype operating system. I think the
             | last time I used a preinstalled on a personal machine was
             | windows 3.1 on a 486.
        
           | josephg wrote:
           | > IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default
           | with no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you
           | decide to install should be able to enroll its keys.
           | 
           | I don't think this works with the security model of secure
           | boot. The secure boot rom is supposed to sit above the OS -
           | as in, it's more privileged than the OS. A compromise in the
           | OS can't lead to a compromise in secure boot. (And if it
           | could, why even bother with secure boot in the first place?)
           | 
           | If the OS could enrol whatever keys it wants, then malware
           | could enrol its own malware keys and completely take over the
           | system like that. And if that's possible then secure boot
           | provides no value.
        
             | NekkoDroid wrote:
             | The enrolling of the certs happen before the bootloader
             | calls `ExitBootServices()` (I think that is what the
             | function was called). Up until then the bootloader still
             | has elevated priviledges and can modify certain UEFI stuff
             | it can't after, including enrolling certs.
             | 
             | systemd-boot can do that if you force it to (only does it
             | by default on VMs cuz expectedly UEFI implementations in
             | the wild are kinda shit)[1, 2]
             | 
             | [1]: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/lates
             | t/syst...
             | 
             | [2]: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/lates
             | t/load...
        
               | mjg59 wrote:
               | No, there's nothing special about the spec secure boot
               | variables as far as boot services goes - you can modify
               | those in runtime as well. We use boot service variables
               | to protect the MOK key in Shim, but that's outside what
               | the spec defines as secure boot.
        
           | gruez wrote:
           | >IMO systems should be shipped in "Setup Mode" by default
           | with no keys preinstalled. On first boot which ever OS you
           | decide to install should be able to enroll its keys.
           | 
           | Sounds like browserchoice.eu but even more pointless. For the
           | normies who don't care about what keys they want installed,
           | it doesn't make a difference. For people who want to switch
           | to linux, it also doesn't make a difference because unless
           | they're setting up their computer for the first time, because
           | the windows key would already be installed. The only thing it
           | does is make setting up a new computer marginally easier for
           | one specific case (ie. you want to install a non-windows
           | operating system AND you don't want to dualboot), and ticks
           | off a box for being "vendor agnostic" or whatever.
        
         | bitwize wrote:
         | This is what you get when a programmer designs a system.
         | 
         | The end user wants to be able to just pick up a computer from
         | Best Buy and have it work, out of the box.
         | 
         | Microsoft can't even conceptualize why you would want to run
         | anything but the Windows that came with the machine. If the
         | expected Windows kernel and files aren't there, or have been
         | altered, that is evidence of malicious tampering--malware that
         | must be stopped. (I'm deliberately steelmanning their
         | perspective here.)
         | 
         | Streaming services want a secure content path. Game vendors
         | want protection against cheating. In order to comply with
         | local/regional/national laws, web sites need you to verify your
         | age, and they need to know your computer is not lying (remote
         | attestation). Nobody wants to be hacked.
         | 
         | The incentives for everyone else besides techies align against
         | techies getting to run arbitrary code on their devices. The
         | Secure Boot system is working precisely as designed.
        
           | dist-epoch wrote:
           | > Game vendors want protection against cheating
           | 
           | Gamers, gamers want anti-cheats. Vendors couldn't care less.
        
             | rcxdude wrote:
             | Gamers want no cheaters, vendors want to be seen to be
             | trying in the cheapest way that has credibility.
        
             | josefx wrote:
             | It is 2026, people still use cheat software on public
             | servers. It works about as well as DRM.
             | 
             | > Vendors couldn't care less.
             | 
             | There are more than enough games that are designed around
             | microtransactions that use grind and gambling mechanics to
             | encourage spending. Throw bots and cheats at that and the
             | entire thing breaks down.
        
       | charcircuit wrote:
       | The security story of the PC platform is such a mess due to
       | fragmentation. I have way more trust in Apple's security here.
        
         | varispeed wrote:
         | Security through obscurity is not a great idea. This is what
         | Apple's current approach is. For instance if your iPhone is
         | infected with malware, there is no anti-virus software that can
         | find it, because Apple doesn't let software to have such deep
         | access that is needed for scanning.
        
           | charcircuit wrote:
           | It's not security by obscurity. It's security by minimizing
           | the attack service by being extremely picky about what you
           | sign. When it is paramount that the code you sign is correct
           | you can't go signing a ton of different projects from people
           | who may not even care about security as much as you do.
           | 
           | >For instance if your iPhone is infected with malware
           | 
           | Then restarting it will remove it. So far Apple has had a
           | perfect record with this unlike Android.
        
             | varispeed wrote:
             | > Then restarting it will remove it. So far Apple has had a
             | perfect record with this unlike Android.
             | 
             | Not things like Pegasus.
             | 
             | It does not minimise attack surface, but minimise ways
             | _you_ can ensure there is nothing on the phone that
             | shouldn't be there.
        
           | ronsor wrote:
           | > Apple doesn't let software to have such deep access that is
           | needed for scanning
           | 
           | Normalizing "security" software running in the background to
           | "scan" things has proven a social and technical disaster.
           | Users think it's normal to have such activity (and receive
           | random "virus alerts"), leading to over two decades of social
           | engineering scams, fraud, and malware-delivery. On top of
           | that, "security" software has a habit of creating its own
           | security holes and problems. Look at game anti-cheats (one
           | was just on the front page the other day), the CrowdStrike
           | incident, etc.
           | 
           | OS vendors should simply deliver a secure OS. That isn't
           | easy, but it's still easier and more reliable than shipping
           | third-party "security" software after the fact.
        
             | varispeed wrote:
             | The issue isn't "normalising pop-up virus scanners" or
             | letting random vendors hook the kernel. It's verifiability.
             | On Apple platforms, the security model is explicitly "trust
             | us bro". You cannot independently inspect the system at the
             | level required to detect certain classes of compromise,
             | because Apple forbids it.
             | 
             | A platform where compromise is, by design, undetectable to
             | the owner is not "more secure", it's merely less
             | observable. That's security through opacity, not security
             | through design.
             | 
             | Yes, third-party security software has a bad history. So
             | does third-party everything. That doesn't magically make a
             | closed system safer. It just moves all trust to a single
             | vendor, removes independent validation, and ensures that
             | when something slips through, only the platform owner gets
             | to decide whether it exists.
             | 
             | "The OS vendor should deliver a secure OS" is an
             | aspiration, not an argument. No OS is bug-free. Defence in
             | depth means independent mechanisms of inspection, not just
             | a promise that the walls are high enough.
             | 
             | Apple's model works well for reducing mass-market malware
             | and user error. It does not work for high-assurance trust,
             | because you cannot verify state. If you can't audit, you
             | can't prove clean. You can only assume.
             | 
             | That may be a perfectly acceptable trade-off. But let's not
             | pretend it's the same thing as stronger security. It's a
             | different philosophy, and it comes with real blind spots -
             | which to some people make Apple devices a non-starter.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2026-02-08 23:00 UTC)