[HN Gopher] Vocal Guide - belt sing without killing yourself
___________________________________________________________________
Vocal Guide - belt sing without killing yourself
Author : jesperordrup
Score : 250 points
Date : 2026-02-07 07:37 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jesperordrup.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (jesperordrup.github.io)
| SwiftyBug wrote:
| Singing is one of the few things that I suspect may not be just
| learned. Sure, you can improve a little, but not go from complete
| trash to someone you would actually tolerate hearing sing. I
| think our anatomies constrain us much more than for other things.
| How come some people can naturally sing and others produce a
| horrible screech? What I've been trying to find is a style that
| best suits my voice that will make it seem like I'm not horrible.
| Don't know what that is yet. Finding that is not so easy when you
| don't have a large vocal range nor a particularly interesting
| voice.
| aljgz wrote:
| From your comment I don't know you have tried this or not, but
| get some sessions with the best trainer you can. Singing and
| even speaking with a good voice is incredibly counterintuitive
| for some people, speaking from experience. You might have
| everything needed for a great voice expect the skills, or you
| might be trying for a voice that's far from what works well for
| you.
| danhau wrote:
| You can. That progression is normal. I know this because I am
| such a case. I wasn't able to produce a single sound on pitch.
| Now I can nail some songs (as long as they don't go crazy on
| technique).
|
| Learning to sing is taking control of your voice. You use the
| same biology that you have been using for speech and other
| vocal sounds since birth. It all comes built in. Of course it
| comes more naturally to some people, just like any other
| activity.
|
| There are some decent videos on YouTube, but take actual vocal
| lessons if you can. Videos are not a substitute for lessons.
|
| I don't like the posted page. The descriptions aren't very
| helpful and neither are most videos on YouTube. I know from
| experience. For a complete beginner, this is frankly a useless
| resource.
| danhau wrote:
| Oh and I forgot: I can play some instruments, but the voice
| is the cruelest one to learn. You can't ,,see" what you are
| actually doing (wrong). And most of the time you can't even
| feel it very well. This why vocal training is full of
| analogies and imagery.
| stavros wrote:
| I wish it weren't. I would have gotten a lot more mileage
| out of "force a yawn, see what your mouth does, and do
| that" rather than "more space, more space, open up!".
| austinjp wrote:
| Have a look at Complete Vocal Technique.
|
| https://completevocalinstitute.com/complete-vocal-
| technique/
|
| Their work includes pedagogical research to develop a
| consistent terminology which abandons lots of outdated
| and confusing terms such as you mention. No more
| ambiguous words like "project" or "space" or "support".
|
| Their research also includes using endosciopic cameras to
| directly observe the vocal tracts of professional
| singers.
|
| I've not actually trained with them, I just like their
| research and approach.
| stavros wrote:
| That looks really useful, thanks!
| jesperordrup wrote:
| I'm danish. CVI is the source of my inspiration
| stavros wrote:
| Seconding both points. I'm not one of those cases, as I could
| already sing decently, but I've seen people go from
| "terrible" to singing professionally.
|
| I also agree that the linked page isn't useful, it's more of
| a glossary than anything, but then again, I'm not convinced
| that a distinction between head voice and chest voice
| actually exists. I've never been able to tell any qualitative
| difference, as opposed to, for example, falsetto, and the
| community can't really agree on whether they actually are a
| thing or not.
| lvp3 wrote:
| Because it is so easy to get lost in the muck, do you have
| any particular recommendations on some "decent" YouTube
| videos/channels to get at least some practice before taking
| lessons with a vocal coach?
| danhau wrote:
| One I can remember from the top of my head is "How to
| ACTUALLY Use Breath Support". Seemed like a good, in-depth
| explanation of a fundamental topic:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC1iJfWA1aQ
|
| The channel I've watched the most videos on is Chris
| Liepe's. The video "STOP Singing Vowels this way! (its
| making you tense)" was in my singing playlist:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWimkesJDIc
|
| I would still describe myself as a beginner, so please keep
| in mind that I can't possibly vouch for the quality or
| accuracy of any of these videos.
| aaarrm wrote:
| I see a lot of people in here posting success stories from
| lessons, which is great. But I tried lessons for about 2
| months and go absolutely nowhere haha. It was just repeatedly
| practicing some song that I wasn't super into and I never
| even felt like I was "singing" just talking kind of louder /
| longer and felt very forced and odd. Terrible experience tbh,
| but I do love singing and still want to some day. (I
| generally just sing in falsetto to songs in my car because
| I'm too timid to really project my actual voice)
| pards wrote:
| It sounds like you didn't have a very good coach. My first
| coach wasn't very helpful, my second was amazing. Keep
| looking!
|
| Open mic nights at your local bar are a great source of
| data. Approach people after their performance, compliment
| them, and ask them if they have a coach they'd be willing
| recommend.
| CuriouslyC wrote:
| Try recording yourself as you do karaoke. The external
| perspective and hearing it "in the mix" really helps you
| tune your performance.
| porridgeraisin wrote:
| Being able to sing on pitch is more music training than voice
| training. Music can be trained in any voice pretty much. As for
| vocal range - it is one of the easiest ones to improve! Simple
| daily drills can get you there. It's the same for simple voice
| quality things like learning to sing from your chest/diaphragm
| rather than just a head/nasal voice. As for having an
| "aesthetic voice", the steps needed is is extremely specific to
| each individual and each trainer. Both of you will "path"
| towards something that will be aesthetic for you and also
| achievable. Musicians e.g do this to adapt themselves to the
| "beloved" voice of their target industry. For an example, see
| https://www.google.com/search?q=arijit+singh+voice+transform...
| - the AI overview is a pretty decent summary with links to
| original source. Bollywood really likes love songs to be in
| husky male voices, so he adapted to that. You don't have to do
| all that of course, but a small % of similar work will get you
| to "aesthetic" territory.
|
| Listening to lots of vocal music (preferably with very light
| accompaniment) also helps a looot. We are really good at
| imitation.
| apercu wrote:
| I was going to basically say the same thing. Few people can
| "sing" without spending time developing their ear.
| sublinear wrote:
| > How come some people can naturally sing and others produce a
| horrible screech?
|
| From my own experience many of those "natural" singers simply
| grew up around music, so it can definitely be learned. Natural
| talent doesn't really go that far and it's just a small
| temporary boost that can just as easily be ruined by bad habits
| later in life. The same is true for other physical abilities.
|
| Some of the best singers got their start on wind instruments.
| Music is all one big ecosystem of overlapping skills. Unless
| we're talking legendarily insanely great levels of singing, I
| don't think any musicians would agree singing is all that
| special.
|
| In fact, if you isolate the vocals on many hit tracks you might
| be surprised and disappointed.
| porridgeraisin wrote:
| > grew up around music
|
| Yep, and it's not just a childhood thing. At any age, simply
| listening to a lot of vocal music (with very light
| accompaniment) helps a ton in improving your singing
| (alongside other active work)
| vintermann wrote:
| We probably have some instinct for vocal imitation, to
| intuitively understand how the sound we hear is made -
| otherwise, it would be hard to learn to speak.
| mrjay42 wrote:
| As with many things in life, see it like stats in an RPG: your
| 'character' may have "0" in the singing skill INITIALLY. But
| it's still a skill that you can learn, even if you start low.
|
| However, what is true is that, you will sound like YOU. You can
| get close or make impressions of artists you like. But
| ultimately your voice is YOUR instrument and it can gain range,
| and power, but you'll sound like you.
|
| For instance, I'm well aware that I will never have "Celine
| Dion's voice". I don't mean her skills, I mean literally her
| voice.
|
| That's what one of the first AND biggest tough thing to accept
| when singing: you might never sound _exactly like_ the singers
| you admire. But it doesn 't mean you can't sing or be extremely
| good at it.
|
| It's like Michael Jackson was sad because he knew he would
| never be able to sing like Barry White. Does that mean Michael
| Jackson is not a good singer? Nope.
| tomcam wrote:
| It can be taught!
|
| I can play instruments but never thought I could sing outside a
| range of less than an octave in the baritone range.
|
| When I was 50 we had a singing teacher over at our house for my
| children. I asked if she could help my range. That day she took
| my voice to a high C. I am actually a tenor and can sing pretty
| much all the high parts. I am my in-laws' favorite opera singer
| now.
|
| Also I was too timid. Singing is really just controlled
| shouting.
| kbrkbr wrote:
| I hear you. At 49 I also discovered an extra octave up there
| above the high e. Also baritone. The YouTube singiverse did
| it for me
| pards wrote:
| Got any youtubers you'd recommend?
| ajb wrote:
| Some vocal techniques - like belting and the classical voices -
| require the actual development of musculature, both to hold a
| shape (for high pitches) and to be able to stabilise shapes.
| That's not going to happen overnight, so you have to spend
| sometime sounding horrible before you can do those well. That
| doesn't mean it's impossible - it's like lifting weights,
| anyone can improve it.
|
| However, that's not the techniques used in the majority of
| popular singing. You absolutely can sound drastically different
| very quickly. This is simply because most people don't use most
| of the degrees of freedom that the voice has. If you look at
| the Estill method reference material, which concentrates on how
| the vocal system features actually operate to produce different
| vocal effects, they identify around 14 degrees of freedom.Some
| discrete, but a lot of them continuous. It is very common for
| someone who thinks that they have a terrible voice to take a
| few lessons and find that they can sound much better. It's just
| that, as another commenter pointed out, you can't see inside
| your own mouth and throat. You can't see that you're always
| holding them in a certain way.
|
| For example, some women habitually sound shrill, usually
| because they have had to develop a penetrating voice. This is
| often true of teachers, who have to be able to make themselves
| heard over a bunch of shrill children (and aren't able to use
| the option of a deep bass). This is a vocal technique (twang)
| but it can also become habitual,to the point where they don't
| think they can do anything else.
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| Love this comment. So many people think "this is my natural
| voice" but a skilled voice teacher will quickly disabuse one
| of that notion
| pards wrote:
| Ed Sheeran used to be bad at singing [0]. So was Jon Bon Jovi.
|
| In-person vocal lessons and consistent practice have
| dramatically improved my voice from terrible to half-decent.
|
| [0]: https://youtube.com/shorts/I05Ahr0tpAc
| cyco130 wrote:
| Anecdotal evidence from my own singing at 20 compared to 40
| seems to point to the opposite.
| CuriouslyC wrote:
| Genetics limits your potential and influences your timbre, but
| pretty much anyone can learn any technique, and I'll go out on
| a limb and say anyone can learn to sound really good.
| vintermann wrote:
| Yes, tone deafness is more likely to be a problem than
| physical limits, at least if the goal is merely to sing well
| with the range you have.
| dbalatero wrote:
| Why do people that don't know how to do a thing vibe out
| reasons that they'll never be able to do it? It's the hugest
| self-own. Also if you don't know how to do it, why would you
| assume it's based on some secret anatomical lottery. Could it
| just be you don't have access to the right information and
| direction for improvement at the moment?
| zug_zug wrote:
| Yeah I took over a year of singing lessons from a vocal coach
| and saw minimal improvement.
|
| That's fine, but it annoys me when people lie about this stuff.
| I don't say everyone can program, and that's okay. Nobody can
| say "everybody can X" because nobody has met every person.
| 80hd wrote:
| I mostly agree, almost everything is possible for almost
| everyone, but some people have hurdles to overcome that would
| probably take their entire life to overcome.
|
| Having said that, some people choose that path anyway, and
| sometimes they actually end up mastering the field from the
| bottom up in a completely new way that no one else would ever
| think to do.
|
| I say this on the off-chance someone reading this is one of
| those people. But yeah, I'm not gonna try grow from 5'7 to
| 6'4 or sprint faster than Usain Bolt. But more power to
| anyone who tries!
| jesperordrup wrote:
| I think that everybody can sing better with a little guidance.
| Thats already worth something to 1 + those nearby
| dbacar wrote:
| Yes everyone can sing, but not everyone can be listened to :).
| gushogg-blake wrote:
| Too many popups
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thanks for feedback. I'm fixing that immed.
|
| Jesper
| homeonthemtn wrote:
| Hey this is really neat, thank you
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thank you
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Updated. Less pops
| dostick wrote:
| Nirvana and Radiohead do not sing as entire band like barbershop
| trio/quintet. Their singers have names.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| They didn't?? Jokes aside. You're right. I'll update immed.
| meixyz wrote:
| For all those who think they're not talented and therefore can't
| learn how to sing, some good news here: Learning to sing is a
| matter of coordinating and strengthening muscles, so it can be
| practiced and improved just like anything else. The
| predisposition is largely the same for everybody (vocal
| pathologies excluded).
|
| The reason why most people can't just naturally sing well is that
| singing is not a primary biological function, but a bi-product of
| a survival mechanism (vocal folds, aka airflow control / airway
| protection).
|
| The muscles interacting with the vocal folds (thyroarytenoid and
| cricothyroid) have antagonistic function and work on reflexes
| rather than control, so the hard part of learning how to sing is
| to train them to coordinate properly rather than work against
| each other.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Huge thanks for your thorough feedback. Do you have some links
| for this info that I can examine?
|
| Btw. I'm investigating how I can map the traditional Vs CVT
| without doing too much confusion. I'm leaning towards keeping
| traditional and adding cvi notes. And a mapping page.
|
| Let's see
| fastasucan wrote:
| >For all those who think they're not talented and therefore
| can't learn how to sing, some good news here: Learning to sing
| is a matter of coordinating and strengthening muscles, so it
| can be practiced and improved just like anything else. The
| predisposition is largely the same for everybody (vocal
| pathologies excluded).
|
| When I got children I started singing for them almost every
| night. After doing that for some years now it's incredible how
| much better my singing has become (for me at least). Before
| that I didn't dare to sing when other people could hear me, but
| now I have no problems with that. I really enjoy singing for my
| kids and look forward to it every evening.
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| Was looking for this comment. You articulate it well. Many
| people claim they "can't sing" but when they try it's clear to
| me they just have an underdeveloped muscle control
| caryme wrote:
| This is cool! There's a lot of bad (and by bad, I mean misaligned
| with modern voice science and science-informed pedagogy) on the
| internet, so it's nice to see a resource striving to organize
| some good information.
|
| A couple recommendations I'd suggest exploring to be even better
| aligned with current understanding:
|
| Current literature does not distinguish between head voice and
| falsetto. While "falsetto" often carries a connotation of
| breathiness, that is not inherent to the register. Both are
| referred to in literature as laryngial mode M2, in which the
| Cricothyroid muscle is dominant in shaping the vocal folds. In
| contrast, chest voice or M1 is Thyroarytenoid dominant. While
| that may be a bit in the weeds, I found wrapping my head around
| this very helpful in cutting through a lot of confusing language
| around head voice .
|
| Use of these different registers changes across genre and voice
| type. Classical sopranos and mezzos use head voice in their upper
| range, while musical theatre sopranos and mezzos bring their
| chest voice up (i.e. belting). Meanwhile, tenors and basses
| typically use chest voice for their full range in both classical
| and musical theatre genres, with much more use of head voice in
| pop/contemporary genres.
|
| One other suggestion is to more prominently feature SOVTs (semi
| occluded vocal tract exercises). You reference them in your warm
| up section (lip trills and straw phonation) but these are highly
| effective and evidence-based tools to develop efficient
| phonation.
|
| Further, for anyone looking to learn to sing (and anyone can
| learn to sing!), there's no better resource than a voice teacher.
| Most teachers nowadays teach online as well as in person. A great
| place to start looking for a teacher is through NATS or ICVT.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thank you for the feedback, caryme.
|
| And big yes - there is no better ressource than a voice
| teacher!!
|
| This is just a lookup tool (and then some)
| cyco130 wrote:
| > Current literature does not distinguish between head voice
| and falsetto.
|
| Hmm, are you sure about this? I thought chest voice and head
| voice were understood to be a single register called the modal
| register. And falsetto was fundamentally different.
| caryme wrote:
| Yes, though again, the language around registration gets
| really messy. Here's a great article (with a great title!)
| from the Journal of Singing by Christian T. Herbst "Registers
| --The Snake Pit of Voice Pedagogy": https://www.nats.org/_Lib
| rary/JOS_On_Point/JOS-077-02-2020-1...
|
| One relevant excerpt before the article goes into several
| pages discussing M11 vs M2:
|
| > These four laryngeal mechanisms are typically termed as:
| vocal fry (M0, pulse register); chest voice (M1, modal
| register); falsetto (M2, head voice?); and whistle register
| (M3).
|
| Another article by Dr. Ingo Titze (an icon in the field of
| voice science and basically the father of SOVTs) about the
| debated "mix" register, starts this way:
|
| > One is called chest voice, full voice, or modal voice,
| which is described by a vibratory mechanism that some have
| labeled M1. Acoustically, harmonic energy above the
| fundamental dominates the sound spectrum in this register.
| The other anchor is called falsetto or light head voice,
| which is described by a vibratory mechanism labeled M2.
|
| (from https://vocology.utah.edu/_resources/documents/mixed_re
| gistr...)
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| Thanks for adding your thoughts. First tenor here with a high
| C+ when trained and active. I lost my (true) falsetto 10 or so
| years ago, any tips on how to get it back?
|
| Also I lost my whistle register 30 years ago, but I think this
| is normal :)
| caryme wrote:
| Yes! This is something I've been working on - not for the
| sake of the M2 mode itself (head voice / falsetto), but
| because M2 development tends to help with high notes in M1.
| When I started studying with my current teacher, my M2 felt
| somewhere between absent or very weak.
|
| Typically exercises I work on for M2 start with an SOVT
| (typically straw phonation, puffy cheeks, or water bubbles)
| and then transitioning to an [u] vowel on a five note
| descending scale. For me, at least, while this can be very
| unstable depending on the day, M2 is much more easily
| accessible with an SOVT.
|
| You might also start with a gentle SOVT in M1/chest and siren
| up as high as is comfortable without pushing/pressing or
| trying to be loud. Don't think about registration, just let
| it go - SOVTs tend to let the voice go where it wants easily.
|
| Highly recommend my teacher's book: https://www.pluralpublish
| ing.com/publications/a-systematic-a...
| megous wrote:
| This has a lot of Riggs/Manning's SLS/SS vibes. Incl. the
| exercises and terminology.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| :-)
| ninkendo wrote:
| Nit: please don't push to my browser history every time I expand
| one of the sections... I had to press my browser's back button a
| dozen or so times to get back out of your site.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thanks. I'll look into that. It was recommended exactly for
| backtracking but I get that if you want to leave it's a whole
| lot of backpaddling :-)
| chuckadams wrote:
| Use history.replaceState() instead of history.pushState() and
| you're all good.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thanks. It makes sense. I'll switch.
| drivers99 wrote:
| You can also hold down the back button to get a menu of
| previous pages in order to skip multiple back button presses.
| (I still agree with your point and you might already know that.
| Maybe it helps someone.)
| erdemo wrote:
| This is what I was looking for recently! Thank you!
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Well I knew that ;-D
| aaarrm wrote:
| Okay, what's the actual point of this website? It's just a
| glossary of singing terms, that if you sing at all you would know
| pretty much all of them. Even the "resources" section that links
| to youtube just links to a search on youtube of the term, not a
| specific video. Was this just your AI project for fun?
| jesperordrup wrote:
| The actual point is a guide for people who wants to sing or
| already sings. A handy tool to lookup how to ...
|
| I'm not positioning it as anything else.
|
| Regarding AI. Sure i used it. But i use it as A(ssited)
| I(ntelligence). Being both a singer and developer I hope I
| qualify
| mushishi wrote:
| I recommend the CVT app for more comprehensive information.
| (Also the Estill book is quite good if you have an Estill
| teacher.)
| GiraffeNecktie wrote:
| For overcoming pitchiness, the "one weird trick" I learned from a
| singing teacher is to imagine you are moving in the opposite
| direction from the actual pitch. If you're going higher, imagine
| you're going lower and vice versa.
|
| This helped me overcome the tendency to constrict the throat when
| reaching for a higher note or to go flat when heading lower.
| Almondsetat wrote:
| [flagged]
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Not true :-) I care a lot
| rmnclmnt wrote:
| > Growl > > Famous examples: > Christina Aguilera, James Brown,
| Tina Turner
|
| I was not expecting these names!
| Almondsetat wrote:
| It's an AI website with zero credentials
| rmnclmnt wrote:
| Yeah but at least that was funny!
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thanks for your valuable feedback :-)
|
| It's made with AI not by AI ;-0
| Jorchime wrote:
| Yeah, this can be confusing. This is referring to the "growl"
| effect in complete vocal technique. Imagine Christina Aguilera
| making a dramatic car engine growl when you kick down the gas
| pedal. I think this is roughly what this is about.
|
| Not growl as in death metal vocals.
| rmnclmnt wrote:
| Yeah I got that but more often than not now the growl vocal
| technique is associated with extreme metal genre
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Exactly
| jesperordrup wrote:
| It's not metal growling. Thanks for mentioning this. I'll add a
| note to the effect
| allears wrote:
| I think this is a great summary and resource. No, it's not all
| you need to learn to sing, but it wasn't intended to be.
| Regarding singing on pitch and in tune, that too is a learned
| skill. A good coach or singing class will work on ear training.
| Sometimes the (wrong) mechanics of your vocal technique can make
| it difficult to hit a pitch accurately, but you can definitely
| improve your ability to hear a pitch and sing it. These are
| things that even pro singers train and receive coaching on.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thank you for your feedback. Means a lot
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Updated with cvi term notes and map.
|
| To come: beginner guide
| allears wrote:
| There's a story (dunno if it's true, but it could be) about an
| anthropologist who is living with an African tribe to study them.
| He gets to know the tribe and is accepted by them, and one day a
| village elder invites him to join a group sing that evening. The
| anthropologist says "No, no, I can't sing." The elder looks at
| him in astonishment and says, "What do you mean you can't sing?
| You can talk, can't you?"
| rdiddly wrote:
| Would be gratified to see a male, David Lee Roth, added to the
| whistle register examples! (Edit: or James Brown)
| joecool1029 wrote:
| Could probably just add Mike Patton to all the sections lol
| sharyphil wrote:
| This is great, I feel we will be seeing more and more of these
| hyper focused niche learning projects.
|
| As for the project itself, I think it's useful, definitely has
| Claude interface - colors and font even. :) But still so much
| better than the umpteenth productivity SaaS AI wrapper.
| jesperordrup wrote:
| Thanks and I agree. And yes Claude is on the team :-)
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2026-02-07 23:00 UTC)