[HN Gopher] Margin Call
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Margin Call
Author : zdw
Score : 109 points
Date : 2026-02-01 21:33 UTC (1 hours ago)
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| marcusestes wrote:
| That's too much margin. They're trading net profits for user
| happiness and it's hurting their brand more than they understand.
| The app store cartel must fall.
| aucisson_masque wrote:
| The competition is limited to android and Google is sabotaging
| every advantage they held against Apple. Customization is lost,
| freedom is lost, even the smartphones prices are now similar to
| iPhones. Pixels sell for premium price nowadays.
| irl_zebra wrote:
| imo the app store thing is very niche and only affects a small,
| vocal group that tends to sit on hacker news and pay attention
| to these things. Can almost guarantee that 95% of the iphone-
| having population does not know/care about the app store
| "issue." I do think the general decline in quality and uptick
| in bugs will bite them slowly, at least once there's an iphone
| competitor of note.
| marcusestes wrote:
| It affects everyone, because the aggressive revenue cut
| prevents entire categories of apps and services from being
| published to the app store. An app store with a 5-10% cut
| would be an app store with a much richer choice of apps.
| ericmay wrote:
| What are some examples of the categories of apps and
| services that aren't publishable on the App Store due to
| Apple's services revenue?
|
| > An app store with a 5-10% cut would be an app store with
| a much richer choice of apps.
|
| Why? And how are you defining "rich". Rich in quality?
| Quantity? Something else?
| cyberax wrote:
| > What are some examples of the categories of apps and
| services that aren't publishable on the App Store due to
| Apple's services revenue?
|
| For example, Apple refuses to allow Peertube app onto the
| App Store. Peertube is a free version of Youtube with
| peer-to-peer file transfer acceleration.
|
| That's because you can use it to (bring out smelling
| salts!) watch porn. If you connect it to a private
| Peertube instance.
|
| Another example, Apple is not allowing an eBook reader
| app (FBReader) with full OPDS support. Because you can
| use OPDS to buy books in third-party stores. I'm using
| OPDS to get books from my own Calibre Web library, btw.
|
| These are just the ones I can list off the top of my
| head. No doubt there are others.
| techpression wrote:
| I don't think it's that simple, they allow Reddit, which
| Is filled to the brim with porn, and other ver "non
| Apple" things. They also allow plenty of comic book
| readers that open files from almost every possibly
| conceivable source. Not to mention a lot of video players
| that can play porn of course.
|
| Is it inconsistent and frustrating, very much so, and
| certain apps get an unfair treatment for sure, but I
| don't think it's as simple as that "if app can do x then
| it's banned".
| cyberax wrote:
| > I don't think it's that simple, they allow Reddit
|
| What part of "monopolistic collusion behaivor" you do not
| understand? Apple likely has backroom deals with large
| players, while locking out smaller competitors.
|
| After all, Grok app is still in the App Store.
|
| > Is it inconsistent and frustrating, very much so, and
| certain apps get an unfair treatment for sure, but I
| don't think it's as simple as that "if app can do x then
| it's banned".
|
| I gave the names of actual apps, feel free to talk with
| their developers. Peertube got in only after removing the
| ability to add custom endpoints.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Most folks don't realize they're paying (up to) an extra 30%
| to Apple on everything they purchase in the app store. On top
| of an already exorbitant device price.
|
| I'm sure you'd see more outrage if you had the app price
| listed without the fee, and then showed the fee below it/at
| time of purchase. It's another hidden fee.
| no_wizard wrote:
| They aren't because companies refuse to price discriminate.
| There are some exceptions, like Spotify where they called
| it out in a public space that the in app subscriptions were
| more than if you bought directly.
|
| However, I have noticed that its very rare. In every other
| case I've looked into, from Omni apps to streaming apps
| like Netflix, I'm paying the same either way, and often
| with a more convienent way of managing the subscription.
|
| Thereby, I think it goes undetected by most, because price
| comparing the app store to the non app store price will
| yield the same price most of the time. Though importantly,
| I have noticed, it is not always the same _options_. For
| example, regarding Netflix, I am paying the same price for
| my sub via Apple but new and returning customers can no
| longer pay for it this way, they must go to the website
| now. I also can 't add additional members (effectively
| discounted second subs) either.
|
| This has to do with the fact Apple did captiulate to
| allowing companies link to their own subscription pages and
| actually allow customers to be directed in that way with
| clearer and transparent language. However, I have noticed
| most apps with the exception of large streaming platforms
| have done away completely with in app subscriptions, and
| the prices are still the same whether its the web or via in
| app purchases on Apple's platform.
|
| However, Google Play is no better in this regard. Even
| though they allow 3rd party payment processing as an
| alternative to using Google's payment processing, it has
| not lead to apps being cheaper on their platform, in the
| majority of cases. Which makes me wonder if the value is
| still there for a 1st party payment processor, or something
| else.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| I don't even know what the "issue" is. I'm guessing it's the
| 30% they take because it's definitely not the quality and
| range of apps they offer.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| I haven't ever purchased a single thing in the App Store or
| in-app so I guess I don't care. But it does seem like a
| monopoly and something that should be forced to allow
| competition.
| esseph wrote:
| > at least once there's an iphone competitor of note.
|
| What does this even mean? Do you mean in the US or globally?
|
| By units sold, by platform, globally:
|
| Android ~885 Million ~71%
|
| iOS (iPhone) ~247 Million ~20%
|
| HarmonyOS & Others ~118 Million ~9%
| amelius wrote:
| That's what you get with shareholders ...
| PunchyHamster wrote:
| It's a bit of Valve situation, the competition just refuses to
| make better product
| benoau wrote:
| No. The "competition" is artificially limited to buying an
| Android phone, and mobility between platforms can be very
| complicated, not by accident, while apps like Patreon can
| simply be forced to comply with massive fees even if it makes
| their service much more expensive.
|
| Stripe, PayPal and a bag full of other payment options would
| be able to compete just fine with IAP and its fees.
| crazygringo wrote:
| What evidence is there that it's hurting their brand?
|
| Outside of HN I see zero complaints. And the situation has been
| going on for a while. I might not like it, but it seems
| perfectly fine for their brand as far as I can tell.
| latexr wrote:
| I see _a lot_ of complaints outside of HN. For starters, not
| every nerd, and not even every Apple nerd, is on HN. Outside
| of that, even my non-tech-savvy acquaintances have been
| complaining as of late.
|
| Is it enough of a damaged brand to hurt their profits as of
| now? Clearly not. But cracks are forming. Apple's brand isn't
| damaged when they're seen as bad, but when they're seen as
| _the same_ as everyone else.
| raincole wrote:
| > hurting their brand more than they understand
|
| Among perhaps the 1% super tech savvy users. I never heard
| anyone who wants to sideload apps outside online (not even from
| other programmers I know in real life. Ones who care like much
| always have been using rooted android from day 1.)
| PlatoIsADisease wrote:
| Brand name? Apple is a faux-Veblean good targeting lower middle
| class people, moms, and teens (Who pretend the $50/mo payments
| are expensive).
|
| Its a demonstration of wealth.
| arealaccount wrote:
| IMHO as a user I prefer purchasing via app store because it
| avoids all of the dark patterns companies use to prevent
| subscriptions or returns.
|
| I get that it sucks that the honest folks have to pay a 30%
| fees
|
| I'd be happy to pay a 30% premium on my app store purchases
| just for the ability to unsubscribe without dark patterns.
| caminante wrote:
| You're editorializing the headline, aside from your vague
| phrasing for "margin" (actually gross margin) and "Services
| [segment]" which has had gross margins >66% since FY20.
|
| Better to reflect the actual headline and then add a comment.
|
| edit:
|
| This is the SaaS division. Similar at GOOG, MSFT, CRM, etc. have
| similar gross margins.
| BoredPositron wrote:
| I don't understand what you want to say with your comment.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| Meh.
|
| On one level, it's fair.
|
| If everyone has similar services margins, then it's, at one
| level, disingenuous to single out Apple.
|
| At the same time, I have to say that, to my mind, the comment
| is whatabout-ism. Right now we're talking about Apple.
|
| Maybe we can broaden the discussion? I'm fine with that. But
| we'd still be talking about Apple as part of that discussion.
| benoau wrote:
| Not a huge surprise, there's an iCloud antitrust alleging a 78%
| gross profit margin:
|
| https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.42...
|
| The Epic legal case ruling cites a 75% profit margin on App Store
| fees:
|
| https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.36...
|
| And of course, their 36% share of Google Ad revenue revealed in
| Google's antitrust has to be approximately 100% profit:
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/14/google-pays-apple-36percent-...
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Epic should take a look in the mirror first
| benoau wrote:
| They'd see a 200x smaller villain that didn't cause 1/2 the
| world to rewrite competition laws and has only been fined
| $100s of millions for deceiving consumers, not billions.
| zaptrem wrote:
| What did Epic do?
| echelon wrote:
| There are 1,000 ways to get games.
|
| There are over two dozen gaming consoles.
|
| Steam, GoG, Epic, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, retro games, in-
| store games, used games, rental games, you name it.
|
| Literally a billion ways to game. And games are just TOYS.
| One of many hundreds of totally optional dopamine sinks.
|
| Apple is one of two gatekeepers of the most essential device
| of modern humanity. They tax it, tightly control everything
| that happens on it, and edge out every business on it.
|
| This needs to END. The DOJ/FTC/EU/etc. need to strip this
| from Apple and Google permanently. It's had vast deleterious
| effects on all innovation and business in the world.
|
| You can't park in my city without a smartphone now.
|
| You can't order food without a smartphone.
|
| You can't bank.
|
| You can't prove your identity on a loan.
|
| Yet these two companies won't let you run your own software
| on a device you bought and own. They won't let any other
| businesses have any economic activity that isn't taxed. They
| force their search, their payment rails, and their customer
| relations and tracking hooks into everything.
|
| Apple and Google are mega-monopolies and need to be rended
| apart. Not vertically, but horizontally: the DOJ should split
| Google into "Google A / Google B / Google C / Google D ..."
| and force them to compete with each other on all the same
| platform pieces. Just like they did with Ma Bell back in the
| day. And slap Apple around until they open up their platform
| and stop being the defaults for everything.
|
| Call your legislators and demand hyperscaler monopoly
| breakup.
|
| These companies own mobile internet. These companies own
| search and the web. They tax trademarks. They don't let you
| do what you want to do with tech you own. They're removing
| adblock and making it impossible to repair your stuff.
| They're shitting up the entire internet.
|
| Epic is a puppy by comparison. They've done some lame things,
| but it pales in comparison.
| xphos wrote:
| The reality is that if you are a dominator in the OS market
| you shouldn't also be allowed to simultaneously pick
| winners and losers. You are effectively a utility operator
| and should be regulated like one. They can still do there
| vertical scaling app business but its fundamentally anti
| competitive when you collude both.
| no_wizard wrote:
| Epic is hardly a puppy. Scale isn't the only determining
| factor in how to view these actions by companies.
|
| Ironically, the tech industry at large went after Lina Khan
| even though she was instrumental in moving forward with
| taking on tech industry monopolies[0] even though they
| themselves have complained about the App Store for years[1]
| because monopoly enforcement also included shutting down
| anticompetitive mergers like the Figma buyout.
|
| Selective enforcement is how we got here in the first
| place.
|
| This is why the tech industry writ large did a 180 on Trump
| and helped to get him elected. Apparently monopolies are
| good if it means payouts for investors.
|
| [0]: https://www.businessinsider.com/real-reason-silicon-
| valley-h...
|
| [1]: https://techcrunch.com/2025/08/22/y-combinator-says-
| apples-a...
| gigatexal wrote:
| Yea. I saw that too. One day all the hardware will be loss
| leaders for services revenues.
| kergonath wrote:
| That would be a shame, because that'd put Apple's interests
| completely at odds with mine. Using Linux would not be too much
| of a hurdle, but there aren't really any better phones or
| tablets. I am not going to jump from the Apple pan into the
| Google fire.
| gigatexal wrote:
| Oh don't get me wrong: I love the Apple hardware. It's by far
| some of the best on the market. The attention to detail and
| workmanship is why I buy them. I just don't know how they
| will avoid the push to move everything into services and only
| see hardware as a means to an end that end being more
| services revenue. They'll become IBM then :(
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Their hardware margin supposedly averages 40%. A 40+% price
| drop across the board would be a good outcome for a lot of
| their customers.
| behnamoh wrote:
| I wonder how AI can disrupt this nasty business by teaching users
| how they can self-host much of those services and save $$$. Let's
| face it: for the normies out there, the idea of having "your own
| iCloud" is still daunting (albeit very much possible).
|
| Can AI level the playing field between users and greedy firms
| like Apple?
| brianwawok wrote:
| Nah. They won't even know it's a problem to solve.
| latexr wrote:
| Most users won't ever use any AI outside of the big players,
| and those couldn't give a flying fuck about user empowerment.
| They'll just advertise at you and recommend whatever is
| popular. It's unrealistic to believe AI will bring any kind of
| democratisation or software service independence to regular
| users.
| doug_durham wrote:
| Most people don't have the time to "self host". I could easily
| self host, but I don't because it's not worth my time.
| troupo wrote:
| Upton Sinclair coined the oft-cited maxim "It is difficult to get
| a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not
| understanding it." I propose a corollary: It is difficult to get
| a company to see that certain of its core competencies[1] are in
| severe decline[2] when the company is making more money than
| ever.
|
| https://daringfireball.net/linked/2026/01/30/apple-reports-r...
|
| [1] https://daringfireball.net/2026/01/resizing_windows_macos_26
|
| [2]
| https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/something_is_rotten_in_th...
| cyberax wrote:
| I joked several years ago, that when a software company loses
| its way, it does UI refresh that makes everything bigger and
| removes features.
| mrtksn wrote:
| This screams huge potential for dividing the internet into
| localities due to new geopolitical situation.
|
| Europe accounts for over %26 of the revenue, for $30B thats close
| to ~$8B for the last 3 months.
|
| The thing about hegemons is that they are able to enforce things
| like breaking the network effect or demolishing the walls of
| walled gardens. If things get bad enough, EU can give Apple a
| choice: leave EU market and loose all your EU revenue which is
| %26 of all revenue or as big as %65 of the US revenue OR unlock
| your devices %100 to be usable with 3rd party services. Put in
| numbers, definitely loose $38B per quarter or possibly loose $8B
| per quarter.
|
| I bet with %76.5 margin which translates to potential $2B profit
| per month and employment for thousands of high paying jobs, this
| will create enough greed to push for 3rd party local services
| investment. Anti-Americanism, national security concerns, pricing
| and better services(Apple's some services can be better) or even
| maybe bad due to war/political meddling can push Apple's services
| revenue to 3rd parties. Also, there's quite a bit unemployed
| American talent out there so with EU's push they can move to EU
| and eat Apple's service revenue.
|
| That's a bit on the fantasy realm but considering that so many
| unthinkable things are happening these days, maybe US will
| threaten France and bring a carrier strike group to Normandy
| shores and US services revenues from EU will go to zero? There's
| definitely will among the people for that, just the politicians
| need some push.
| runako wrote:
| I think comments focusing on the App Store are way off base.
|
| Unless my household is a wild outlier, I would expect the vast
| majority of services revenue to be Apple One and similar. You
| need more cloud storage to backup your photos, you get Music and
| TV with it. Even many folks who don't do Apple One will end up
| paying for some amount of iCloud storage.
|
| Yes, renting cloud storage at scale to consumers can be very
| profitable. BackBlaze is not as scaled, and doesn't have the
| platform tie, and achieves a 60% gross margin.
| raincole wrote:
| Why do people even calculate or care the gross margin percentage
| outside of manufacturing and retailing?
|
| I genuinely fail to see why and how it's a number with any
| meaning. For example, a plumber fixed your house's pipe. He
| charged mostly for his time instead of the tools and materials he
| used (righteously). If you count his 'gross margin percentage' it
| might be higher than Apple. Does it mean anything?
| airstrike wrote:
| It doesn't mean anything because you're comparing the plumber
| with Apple, but if you compare plumbers to each other, or
| possibly even a plumber to an electrician, it could be useful.
| Galanwe wrote:
| The plumber hourly wage is to be deducted from his margin. Just
| as Apple's costs for running the payment system and platform
| are deducted.
|
| > I genuinely don't know why and how it's a number with any
| meaning.
|
| It has meaning in the context of Apple arguing that their fees
| are that high because they have to maintain said
| infrastructure.
|
| Which leads to the question "how come there is no competition
| to lower such high margins?", which in turns questions whether
| any competition in unfairly blocked by Apple.
|
| In a totally frictionless market, profit margins are usually
| low. Very high margins are often a sign of a closed market
| where _somehow_ competition cannot emerge.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| Somehow Apple maintains this perception that they make money on
| the hardware and therefore are trustworthy because they don't
| have any interests hostile to their users.
|
| But when you look at what's really happening it's clear - they
| have a highly hostile interest to their users - they want to lock
| them into the ecosystem and then rent seek like crazy on services
| that their users have almost no choice but to buy.
|
| This is why I love Apple products but I only buy the open ones
| that leave me choice to do what I want - which pretty much means
| I'm only buying Macbooks these days.
| PlatoIsADisease wrote:
| Walled Garden is marketing speak. Walled Prison is the reality.
|
| Its always been like this, but I don't think their target
| demographic cares. I remember 10 years ago I heard something
| like: "Iphone, the phone your mom uses." Not that its accurate.
| Blows my mind VIPs use iphones after Pegasus.. How could these
| people be so unaware?
| msy wrote:
| iPhones, particularly with the advanced security/hardening
| turned on are light years in front of Android devices for
| protection against advanced/sophisticated actors. Which is
| why VIPs use iPhones.
|
| Apple responded to Pegasus with Lockdown Mode, which is
| probably the most hardcore security modality that's ever
| shipped in mass produced consumer hardware.
| didip wrote:
| As a shareholder, this is super fantastic.
| marstall wrote:
| yet tim cook still feels the need to attend the melania premiere
| zer00eyz wrote:
| For some context:
|
| Nvidia: GAAP and non-GAAP gross margins are expected to be 74.8%
| and 75.0%,
|
| Micron: MU (Micron Technology) Gross Margin % as of today
| (January 28, 2026) is 56.04%
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(page generated 2026-02-01 23:00 UTC)